Post by: DOUBLELUNG on December 18, 2017, 03:21:14 PM
I drew a quality archery elk permit in eastern Washington. I have not hunted elk for several years due to severe heart disease. Two very good friends agreed to make the trip with me; if I could kill a bull, they would handle all the hard work. They planned to hunt grouse and bear while I hunted elk, with pre-planned radio checkins. I can do a lot if I can go slow, but overexerting causes either an angina attack, tachycardia, or both. I had also had an offer from another permit hunter and his buddy, to help with the pack out if I killed a bull. I had decided going in that I would limit my shot to 40 yards on a broadside branched bull. I also planned to hunt the gentler tops between the nasty canyons, and not go into them even if I could see or hear elk.
It was really hot and dry leading up to the hunt, reaching the 80s every day - about 20 degrees warmer than average for late September in this area. There was no break in the forecast for the hunt. The day before the opener, we were able to hear 2-3 bulls bugling in dense timber. With the warm weather causing rising thermals by mid-morning, I decided to hunt downhill into that area the opening morning.
In the predawn darkness of opening morning, we heard a couple of bugles from downhill. I began my walk down into that area. Fast forward to 10:30, no elk seen or heard, and little fresh sign. I decided to work my way across the timbered basin toward an open meadow. I had my first game encounter, a 30 yard stare down with a hen turkey and 4 poults, who worked their way out of there with a long chorus of alarm putts.
At the edge of the meadow, I eased into the wind to a glassing spot. Nothing to see, not surprising on a hot sunny late morning. I decided to rest for a bit and have some lunch and hydrate. After eating, I glassed again, this time catching movement across the meadow in the timber. Elk! Cow, cow, 1x2. They quickly went out of sight, so I moved along my side of the meadow in the timber in the direction they had traveled. I did not see the three elk, but after a lot of glassing I was able to see a group of cows bedded on a high knob back in the timber. I eventually counted a minimum of 11 cows, and felt confident there had to be a herd bull. A fairly short walk around the further edge of the meadow would put me with the elk but the wind was wrong, so I opted for a long, wide circling walk to put me downwind. As I walked the meadow edge on the elk's side of the meadow, directly into the wind, I could see why they were bedded there - the far side dropped straight down into a hellish canyon, a perfect escape path.
About 200 yards from the bedded herd, a commotion on my left drew my immediate attention: 2 raghorn bulls had jumped up from their beds and were staring my way. I stood still, and eventually they started scanning; they had heard or seen me, but didn't know what had spooked them. I was waiting to see what they would do, when they bolted ahead toward where the cows were bedded. I ranged where they had been, 58 yards. A loud throaty scream confirmed my suspicion of a herd bull - they had gotten close to the cows and he was PISSED.
What commenced next was one of the most intense stalks I've ever experienced. I quickly advanced and soon was watching the 1x2 eating leaves off a serviceberry. 32 yards. I had an arrow nocked and was very tempted to take him. I heard the bull scream again, and this time I could see his antler tips coming my way. Then he turned and disappeared back the way he had come. This display convinced the spike to move away and disappear down into the canyon. I ranged the tree where the bull turned - 81 yards. I continued to stalk into the wind, one step at a time, scanning 180 between each step - I knew there were lots of eyes straight ahead. I made it about 15 yards and sure enough, there was a cow feeding about 45 yards to my right. I was pinned.
Over the next 30-40 minutes, anywhere from 1-7 cows were continuously in sight. I was able to occasionally make a 1/2 step while all eyes were off me. I can't count the times cows stared straight at me, all the while expecting a change in the wind or movement of a cow to cause them to wind me. Amazingly, it never happened. The bull calmed down slightly and started to occasionally bugle rather than scream, but he was still jacked up and would threaten the cows with his antlers whenever he got close to them, causing them to jump away. I think this was the reason the cows never spooked on me, they were too aware of him as a threat. He kept up his circuits, but now he was turning away at 63-65 yards.
My calves were crying from all the enforced stillness and awkward positions. I kept willing the cows to go out of sight, but as soon as one did another would wander into sight. If they would just go out of sight, I would scamper quickly ahead 25 yards across a dip in the hillside. Finally, the bull came closer, threatened the cows and they all ran over the crest out of sight. Up to this point, all I had seen was the top of his rack. I scooted ahead, keeping my eyes on the top of his rack until I could see thirds, then stopped behind a big ponderosa. I leaned to the left, and ranged his butt at 40 yards. The tree behind him was 44 yards, the one in front 22. I leaned to the right, and as I was settling my pin a group of 7 cows ran over the crest and stopped between me and him >:(. The closest cow was approximately 15 yards. They would glance my way but were focused on the bull. I slowly, slowly eased my draw back down. The cows spun end and ran back the way they had come. The bull was no longer broadside, but quartered away. I dropped my pin down behind his shoulder and released.
A lot happened in an instant. The bull was wheeling and then running straight away. I heard the crack of arrow on bone, and then the whole herd was bailing down into the nasty canyon. I looked the time on my GPS: 12:27. I collapsed to the ground and had a much needed drink. I turned on my radio for my 12:30 checkin and said "I just shot a herd bull".
Skipping a lot of chatter, we determined that they were beyond the far side of the canyon. They would come to the far side rim and glass, while I checked out the scene on my side. I marked my shot location with a piece of flagging tape, and walked the line of my shot. I reached the tree that had been beyond the bull. No hair, no blood. I came back and found the tracks where he jumped, and dropped a piece of flagging tape. Ranged back to my shot location: 32 yards. The hit would have been high if I held true on the 40 - did I hit the scapula?
The radio crackled and I heard "we found a group of cows and three bulls". What are they? 1x2, 4x3, 4x4. That's not them, this guy had 4ths and three points behind, probably 7x7. A long while later, we've got him, he's standing by himself behind some brush. Standing? crud. Keep eyes on and I'll make my way around the head of the canyon and meet you. As I was making my way there, I heard "He's in the open. He's got an arrow sticking out of his a**". "Are you <messing> with me?" "No. Wish I was." I felt like :puke:
About an hour later, after one of them met me at the head of the canyon and led me to their vantage, I was able to look through the spotter and see for myself. The broadhead was buried in his pelvis, midway between his right hip joint and anus. A good 2 feet of shaft sticking out. No hoped-for stream of blood running down his leg. No way a lethal hit. A slope of 40-60 degrees, and 25 elk downwind. There was no option to approach - we decided to wait and watch. For the next five hours, nothing happened: the bull continued to stand, the rest of the elk bedded and fed across the slope upwind. My one buddy would occasionally muse, playing with his rangefinder: "572 yards. I could put one in his neck with this .25/06." "Yeah, I know you could".
Around 7:00, the bull suddenly began to walk steadily down the slope; he was favoring his right rear but it wasn't impeding him. No broken bones. Crap. There's no way that's lethal. No. "547 yards". "520 yards". Yeah, whatever. He stopped out of sight in an isolated clump of firs, about 100 yards above the canyon bottom. This was it, another chance! I picked a spot in the canyon bottom upcanyon/downwind of the clump of firs, and began my descent - a drop of about 1300' elevation. The exact kind of stuff I was going to stay out of. Oh well, Plan B. I made the descent fine, the bottom however was a hellhole jungle. The only way to break through was to follow the bear tunnels and shove through the dense brush. hawthorn and rose everywhere, ripping me through my lightweight warm weather camo. Too much effort, darn it, there goes the tachycardia. From here out, I'm only going to get 8-12 steps between gasping rest breaks. Radio crackles "he moved, he's 100 yards above you. It's now or never". I'll keep the tachycardia to myself for now. I'm trying to move up slope ASAP, but my heart isn't cooperating. Radio again "He's back at the top of the hill." WTF - are you sure it's him - yeah, I can see the arrow. It's sunset. No way I can get up the hill in time, if at all. I tell them I am going to sidehill to the bottom, if they will get the truck (one up top, one left at the bottom). It takes a long time, but I eventually make it out to the road. Back to camp.
Day 2 plan: Go back to the glassing vantage and take the slope apart, hope to find the bull and make a plan to get on him. After 3 hours of glassing, no elk seen, though the same group of whitetails and turkeys make appearances. Why don't you guys go look for a bear/scouting, I'm just going to walk that ridgeline out and then sidehill the elk trails and see if he's there. You sure? Yeah, I'll take it slow, I'll be back out to the road by the end of the day. On my first pass along the ridge, I see a big elk, head hidden at 78 yards. Bull size, cow color. Eventually get a look at the head, yep, huge lone cow. That is the last and only game animal I see. I make 5 passes from the ridgetop to the bottom along the sidehills of the canyonside. Some angina, tiring but doable. I finish sooner than expected, and am at the road in the bottom by mid-afternoon. I decide to try the radio, no response. I pick out a spot for a nap, leaving the radio on. A short nap. My buddy shows up with the truck after a half hour, he heard the radio break squelch so decided to come investigate. He was having second thoughts about a small bear he'd passed on earlier, I said let's go there, I'm spent. He drove to the other end of the unit, well look there - elk in the road. He backs down the road, we get out and listen. Big herd of elk, above and below the road. I grab my bow and pack, and head below the road. Come to a meadow and can see a BIG bull (320 class 6x6), being harassed by a decent satellite (260 class satellite). About 270 yards. This short walk though confirmed I am gassed, angina kicking in. At least I have nitroglycerin tabs for that. I watch the satellite make a big wide arc around the angry herd bull, he gets within 158 yards before heading back upslope. I go back up to the road. What happened? My heart's gassed. Want to go after that 6 (bugling above the road now that he's got some distance from the herd bull)? Try to cow call him in? No, I'm gassed, not going to try. Back to camp for an early bed.
Day 3: Want to go back where we saw the elk yesterday? No I'm satisfied I didn't kill that bull, and made every reasonable effort, but I still want to hunt there. I'm going to sit on the meadow from the first day and see what happens. Well, bulls are bugling is what is happening. There is one in the canyon east of where I shot the bull day 1, there is a big herd at the south end of the meadow, with two potential herd bulls roughly 310 and 320, a 5x6 satellite, and at least 3 bulls bugling in the trees to the west of the meadow. Wind is out of the west today, if I circle the edge to the east I will probably spook the one in the canyon but will be downwind of the rest. And, it worked just like I planned.
The big herd works west as I'm circling downwind east, and pretty soon all the elk are in the timber. I drop in downwind of the nearest bugling bull (once they got in the trees the subordinates get bold end every bull is bugling its head off). I'm shadowing him but all the elk are moving, this goes on for about 2 hours. The wind is really swirly and I don't want to get too close. About midmorning the rising thermals strengthen, and I think this would be a good time to find a high knob and try some cow calling. I find the perfect spot, 7 pines growing roughly in a circle, and shooting lanes in most directions in the clear from 25-60+ yards. I'm hoping whichever direction a bull may come from, he'll approach from below my elevation and the rising thermals will carry my scent above.
My first call is terrible, but three bulls respond anyway. I follow up with a series of plaintiff lost horny cow chirps (I hope), and the bulls respond encouragingly. The bull to my southwest is definitely approaching, and I think the one due west may be also. Yes, the one southwest is definitely coming. I respond to his bugles with more lost horny cow chirps, and suddenly I see the top of his antlers coming through the trees, right at me. He is between two trunks I earlier ranged at 16 and 22 yards, I can see his ears, he is scanning left and right looking for the cow. I come to full draw and lean left around my tree, I'm too far forward and I can't swing the bow far enough right. I slowly lean back, bring the broadhead behind the trunk and to the right, I'm right on his neck but I can't see his chest - I need him to take one more step up. As he swings his head away I move my right foot an inch and make a tiny scuffing noise, he hears it and steps up. My 20 yard pin is rock steady on the bulge of his trachea in his mane, just up from where the long neck hair meets the body hair . I release and watch the arrow centerpunch the bulge , disappears completely into his mane hair before he wheels and bolts back the way he came. Dead elk. Shortly after I hear wet cough, followed seconds later by a crash. 8:30am. I am able to reach my friends, tell them I killed a bull, and give them my GPS coordinates. I sit down and wait for them to arrive with pack frames, which they do. I tell the whole story. I've taken this shot twice on deer, with results of dead right there (shooting uphill, broke its spine) and one that ran 30 yards and cartwheeled dead. We go to get my dead elk.
Fast forward 7 hours. My buddies have diligently done 7 hours of intuitive searches, after the first hour I started a GPS grid search and have done 300 yards out in a 3/4 circle arc, just shy of 3 miles in 6 hours without ever getting more than 300 yards from the shot. My buddies have covered much more, and I have stayed on track to the greatest extent possible, but some really thick brush and again the only way through at times was to deviate and shove through a bear tunnel. I found one quarter sized drop of serous red fluid, I think bloody saliva from the poke through the windpipe. That's it. It is now mid-afternoon, 7 hours have passed. temperature has reached upper 80s, and any possible meat recovery window is closed. I'm utterly spent. I have four days left, but I'm quite sure I killed this bull and I'm not shooting another. I have no interest in recovering the antlers without the meat. I'm done, time to grab a meal, hit the rack, and pack up and head home tomorrow.
That's enough for one post.
Post by: Doublelunger on December 18, 2017, 04:42:46 PM
I release and watch the arrow centerpunch the bulge , disappears completely into his mane hair before he wheels and bolts back the way he came.
Thanks for sharing, sorry about the outcome but sounds like it was an eventful series of events for you. Glad you were able to accomplish what you did given your health also. Are you sure that you centerpunched him? I don't have experience with frontal shots, but if you really did center punch him and the arrow completely disappeared I would think that shot would be 110 percent lethal. Is it possible the arrow went off of center one way or the other and passed between brisket and front shoulder, basically going through the armpit and not hitting any vitals?
Post by: vandeman17 on December 18, 2017, 04:43:24 PM
Post by: eastfork on December 18, 2017, 05:05:17 PM
Post by: boneaddict on December 18, 2017, 05:29:40 PM
Post by: fastdam on December 18, 2017, 05:31:56 PM
Post by: gonehuntin68 on December 18, 2017, 05:58:26 PM
I'll take any shot I have, including a frontal shot. I like the challenge of non traditional situations. When I go hunting I am looking to put meat in our freezer. There is nothing respectful about killing a free creature so I really don't worry about waiting for the perfect situation and possibly missing about opportunity. Ethics,.....well, those are imaginary constructs of society. We all have our own and they are not all the same so I don't in any way feel obligated to adhere to anyone else's but mine.
So you take random bad shots?
Post by: Duckslayer89 on December 18, 2017, 06:06:46 PM
I'll take any shot I have, including a frontal shot. I like the challenge of non traditional situations. When I go hunting I am looking to put meat in our freezer. There is nothing respectful about killing a free creature so I really don't worry about waiting for the perfect situation and possibly missing about opportunity. Ethics,.....well, those are imaginary constructs of society. We all have our own and they are not all the same so I don't in any way feel obligated to adhere to anyone else's but mine.
:yike: :hunt2:
Post by: elkboy on December 18, 2017, 06:11:10 PM
I am sorry your hunt didn't have the outcome that you had hoped for, DoubleLung, but thank you for sharing the hard stories as well as the good ones. It encourages those who have had similar experiences. It educates those who haven't been there yet. And above all, it is a good reminder that hunting is difficult, and that we all can think about preparing well for next season, regardless of current skill level.
Thanks again.
Post by: Watimberghost on December 18, 2017, 06:16:26 PM
I didn't read fastdam saying he took random bad shots?
I had a similar expirience this year with a frontal shot that I felt good about. Still a kick in tbe gut... sometimes its not like the hunting shows where you have minutrs to wait for a perfect broadside shot. Thanks for sharing doublelung.
Post by: gonehuntin68 on December 18, 2017, 06:25:44 PM
:yeah:
I didn't read fastdam saying he took random bad shots?
I had a similar expirience this year with a frontal shot that I felt good about. Still a kick in tbe gut... sometimes its not like the hunting shows where you have minutrs to wait for a perfect broadside shot. Thanks for sharing doublelung.
If I took any shot I had I would have had a lot of random bad shots. Seen lots of just butts. Should you take that?
Post by: hunter399 on December 18, 2017, 06:40:57 PM
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on December 18, 2017, 07:04:00 PM
Post by: hogslayer on December 18, 2017, 07:14:59 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 18, 2017, 08:08:39 PM
Post by: Torrent50 on December 18, 2017, 08:43:21 PM
Anyone else have that experience or hear that theory?
Post by: brew on December 18, 2017, 09:09:52 PM
Post by: DaveMonti on December 18, 2017, 09:13:31 PM
Post by: KFhunter on December 18, 2017, 09:15:54 PM
(watching)
me too
Post by: Naches Sportsman on December 18, 2017, 09:37:50 PM
Post by: highside74 on December 18, 2017, 10:12:38 PM
Post by: pd on December 18, 2017, 10:17:19 PM
I'll never turn down a frontal shot within my own personal comfort zone for hitting that spot. You gave it hell buddy, hold your head high! Wish I could have made it down to help out.
And not for the first time, I agree with this guy.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 19, 2017, 07:47:59 AM
Post by: huntingfool7 on December 19, 2017, 07:54:35 AM
This is definitely not from personal experience as I have yet to successfully harvest an elk, but from things I have read about frontal shots and a couple videos I recently watched it has been suggested that you search uphill on those shots, which goes against what I was always told about a wounded animal's most likely path. The theory is that since there really isn't a place for much blood to escape it collects in the body cavity and if they try to go down hill it fills the chest cavity and starts to suffocate them. Going uphill relieves that pressure.@Torrent50 That doesn't make sense from an anatomy standpoint (even though it's repeated in a post below yours). A shot through the lungs will fill the lungs regardless of the elks orientation. Fluid in the body cavity wouldn't create the pressure to collapse the lungs assuming they are not perforated.
Anyone else have that experience or hear that theory?
Post by: Rainier10 on December 19, 2017, 07:59:52 AM
There are lots of dead elk in the woods. Some die from arrows, which you can see at the site. Others die from muzzy bullets and modern firearm bullets, you probably don't find those bullets at the seen. And of course others die of natural causes or by predators.
Hopefully this can stay on track and not be a user group versus a user group thing.
Post by: Gringo31 on December 19, 2017, 08:03:02 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 19, 2017, 08:06:07 AM
Most Everyone I know spending much time in the woods has found dead lost game with arrows nearby or lost ones they’ve shot at. :dunno: Not what we want but it just happens all a guy can do is our best to minimize it.I am in the woods 90-100 days a year between fall hunts, scouting, and spring turkey and I've never found a single one. I've found lots of arrows over the years but never a single skeleton with an obvious arrow laying there.
Post by: cbond3318 on December 19, 2017, 08:10:28 AM
Hats off to you for pushing the edges still and putting boots to ground. From what I’ve gathered over the years here you have had a storied career in the outdoors and what you’ve shared here on this thread must have been a hard pill to swallow, but atlas Good men share, learn and move on. Good job good sir. :tup:
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on December 19, 2017, 08:29:01 AM
The wet cough tells me that this bull is dead. In my experience, when I hear that, the bull is dying shortly. As big as a bull elk is, they can disappear when they go down in brush. Sorry you were unable to find him, at least you gave it your best.
Side note... it would be very hard for me to watch a bull with my arrow stuck in his ass and a rifle close by. I would have shot him and paid the price rather than let him run around like that.
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 19, 2017, 08:29:29 AM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 19, 2017, 08:55:06 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on December 19, 2017, 08:58:06 AM
It is interesting to me when ethics start to override what the rules are.
Post by: jennabug on December 19, 2017, 08:58:35 AM
Post by: Sandberm on December 19, 2017, 09:02:59 AM
I always go out with the intention of only taking the perfect shot, never happens.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 19, 2017, 09:10:15 AM
It sounds to me like he or his partners were struggling with whether or not to shoot it with a gun.beau turned his own wife in for a hunting violation. You really think it was a serious discussion?
It is interesting to me when ethics start to override what the rules are.
The little assumptions and back handed insults directed at Beau in this thread are so disappointing. Guy tries to share some very teachable moments these are the results :dunno:
Post by: Woodchuck on December 19, 2017, 09:13:52 AM
Karl, I can promise you that Rainier10 is not taking a shot at the OP. He is simply making an observation on human behavior. Not just the OP and his partners.It sounds to me like he or his partners were struggling with whether or not to shoot it with a gun.beau turned his own wife in for a hunting violation. You really think it was a serious discussion?
It is interesting to me when ethics start to override what the rules are.
The little assumptions and back handed insults directed at Beau in this thread are so disappointing. Guy tries to share some very teachable moments these are the results :dunno:
Post by: jackelope on December 19, 2017, 09:16:09 AM
There are lots of dead elk in the woods. Some die from arrows, which you can see at the site. Others die from muzzy bullets and modern firearm bullets, you probably don't find those bullets at the seen. And of course others die of natural causes or by predators.
Hopefully this can stay on track and not be a user group versus a user group thing.
The parts in bold are the important parts to remember in this discussion. I've spent a fair amount of time in the woods and have found several dead animals, never with an arrow laying next to one of them. Who knows how they died. I'd venture a guess to say at least a couple of them died from either an arrow or a bullet.
The comments from a couple folks in this thread making it sound like bowhunters just shoot and wound game and walk away are uncalled for.
I did find an arrow stuck in a tree one time though. That guy probably should have stuck to rifle hunting.
This thread may help explain why I always find deadheads with arrows nearby.Comments like this are 110% uncalled for, especially when you don't know anything about the guy who started this thread. I personally guarantee he has forgotten more about ungulates and anatomy than 99.9% of the rest of us on this forum will ever know.
Edit for the record.
I'm a rifle hunter. I've hunted with a bow about 7 days total in my life and never shot a thing. I shot at a grouse one day and missed.
Post by: Gringo31 on December 19, 2017, 09:19:09 AM
Post by: jackelope on December 19, 2017, 09:19:59 AM
Shortly after I hear wet cough, followed seconds later by a crash.
The wet cough tells me that this bull is dead. In my experience, when I hear that, the bull is dying shortly. As big as a bull elk is, they can disappear when they go down in brush. Sorry you were unable to find him, at least you gave it your best.
Side note... it would be very hard for me to watch a bull with my arrow stuck in his ass and a rifle close by. I would have shot him and paid the price rather than let him run around like that.
It sounds to me like he or his partners were struggling with whether or not to shoot it with a gun.beau turned his own wife in for a hunting violation. You really think it was a serious discussion?
It is interesting to me when ethics start to override what the rules are.
The little assumptions and back handed insults directed at Beau in this thread are so disappointing. Guy tries to share some very teachable moments these are the results :dunno:
I think he was referring to elkinrut's comments.
Post by: bobcat on December 19, 2017, 09:20:20 AM
Post by: jackelope on December 19, 2017, 09:20:33 AM
I shot a tree once just north of White pass. Shoulders were covered so I held tight to the tree.....and hit the tree. :hello:
Weird that your arrow flew all the way to Colville. 80# draw weight?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 19, 2017, 09:21:29 AM
well said! Thank you jackelope!
There are lots of dead elk in the woods. Some die from arrows, which you can see at the site. Others die from muzzy bullets and modern firearm bullets, you probably don't find those bullets at the seen. And of course others die of natural causes or by predators.
Hopefully this can stay on track and not be a user group versus a user group thing.
The parts in bold are the important parts to remember in this discussion. I've spent a fair amount of time in the woods and have found several dead animals, never with an arrow laying next to one of them. Who knows how they died. I'd venture a guess to say at least a couple of them died from either an arrow or a bullet.
The comments from a couple folks in this thread making it sound like bowhunters just shoot and wound game and walk away are uncalled for.
I did find an arrow stuck in a tree one time though. That guy probably should have stuck to rifle hunting.This thread may help explain why I always find deadheads with arrows nearby.Comments like this are 110% uncalled for, especially when you don't know anything about the guy who started this thread. I personally guarantee he has forgotten more about ungulates and anatomy than 99.9% of the rest of us on this forum will ever know.
Edit for the record.
I'm a rifle hunter. I've hunted with a bow about 7 days total in my life and never shot a thing. I shot at a grouse one day and missed.
Post by: Rainier10 on December 19, 2017, 09:25:35 AM
:yeah:Karl, I can promise you that Rainier10 is not taking a shot at the OP. He is simply making an observation on human behavior. Not just the OP and his partners.It sounds to me like he or his partners were struggling with whether or not to shoot it with a gun.beau turned his own wife in for a hunting violation. You really think it was a serious discussion?
It is interesting to me when ethics start to override what the rules are.
The little assumptions and back handed insults directed at Beau in this thread are so disappointing. Guy tries to share some very teachable moments these are the results :dunno:
In the OP he said that it was brought up, just bringing it up means it was discussed. His title says "situational ethics". Some in this thread say that they would have had a hard time not shooting it and even said that they would have. That and many other comments in this thread are interesting to me.
I truly was making an observation and not saying that there was anything wrong with what the op did, discussed or what others have said they would do. I am merely interested in how others view this situation and what their take on it is.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 19, 2017, 09:26:45 AM
fair enough. I just get darn defensive about stuff like this. Beau's knowledge and experience afield is such an amazing asset to this site and all its members so when I see him getting torn up by all the keyboard warriors, especially ones we all know have little to no experience, I go on the offensive. Meant no disrespect to Rainer. I'd go on the same offensive for him as I also feel he is a priceless asset to this forum :tup:Shortly after I hear wet cough, followed seconds later by a crash.
The wet cough tells me that this bull is dead. In my experience, when I hear that, the bull is dying shortly. As big as a bull elk is, they can disappear when they go down in brush. Sorry you were unable to find him, at least you gave it your best.
Side note... it would be very hard for me to watch a bull with my arrow stuck in his ass and a rifle close by. I would have shot him and paid the price rather than let him run around like that.It sounds to me like he or his partners were struggling with whether or not to shoot it with a gun.beau turned his own wife in for a hunting violation. You really think it was a serious discussion?
It is interesting to me when ethics start to override what the rules are.
The little assumptions and back handed insults directed at Beau in this thread are so disappointing. Guy tries to share some very teachable moments these are the results :dunno:
I think he was referring to elkinrut's comments.
Post by: Woodchuck on December 19, 2017, 09:29:32 AM
As are you man. :tup:fair enough. I just get darn defensive about stuff like this. Beau's knowledge and experience afield is such an amazing asset to this site and all its members so when I see him getting torn up by all the keyboard warriors, especially ones we all know have little to no experience, I go on the offensive. Meant no disrespect to Rainer. I'd go on the same offensive for him as I also feel he is a priceless asset to this forum :tup:Shortly after I hear wet cough, followed seconds later by a crash.
The wet cough tells me that this bull is dead. In my experience, when I hear that, the bull is dying shortly. As big as a bull elk is, they can disappear when they go down in brush. Sorry you were unable to find him, at least you gave it your best.
Side note... it would be very hard for me to watch a bull with my arrow stuck in his ass and a rifle close by. I would have shot him and paid the price rather than let him run around like that.It sounds to me like he or his partners were struggling with whether or not to shoot it with a gun.beau turned his own wife in for a hunting violation. You really think it was a serious discussion?
It is interesting to me when ethics start to override what the rules are.
The little assumptions and back handed insults directed at Beau in this thread are so disappointing. Guy tries to share some very teachable moments these are the results :dunno:
I think he was referring to elkinrut's comments.
Post by: Rainier10 on December 19, 2017, 09:35:22 AM
I do think that the OP was looking for a discussion about frontal shots and situational ethics and hopefully he is not taking the comments as he did something wrong.
Post by: huntingfool7 on December 19, 2017, 09:37:22 AM
Maybe it would be better to kill the bull with a rifle rather than having it suffer with an arrow in it? I would sure feel better if that had been the case. Of course we'd never have heard the story if that had happened. But I hate knowing there's an elk out there suffering like that.Those are tough calls. Honestly, I think I would have pulled that trigger.
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on December 19, 2017, 09:41:31 AM
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on December 19, 2017, 09:50:23 AM
It sounds to me like he or his partners were struggling with whether or not to shoot it with a gun.
It is interesting to me when ethics start to override what the rules are.
It is interesting how the written word is interpreted differently. I assumed his buddy was joking with him when I read it. It is also interesting how sometimes the ethical thing to do may be to break the rules on occasion. Of course this only applies to ethical people, who are trying to do the right thing.
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 19, 2017, 09:52:24 AM
Lots of elk hit in the leg bone or guts from broadside shots too. It sucks to lose an animal.
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on December 19, 2017, 09:58:26 AM
Going in, I was planning to kill any bull I could. I modified that to a branched bull because I wanted to get a cape for a friend who has a bull to mount. That is why I passed a chip shot on the 1x2, and also why I was tempted to take him. I purposely mentioned my self-imposed limitations - broadside, 40 yards or less - because I obviously did not stick with that. I have successfully stuck to my own self-imposed 40 yard shot limit on game archery hunting for a couple of decades, based on the crazy things I've experienced deer and elk do between release and impact.
I regret taking the first shot. I was very invested in that stalk, and a lot of split second decisions I made. Based on that bull's aggressive behavior to the cows, I could/should have anticipated his coming closer and running the cows back over the hill, based on their behavior. The entire time I watched him (antlers), he was on the move, never stopping more than a second or two. As a result of not factoring that in, I hit high. I hit him in the ass because he continued his turn away when I released. The quartering away shot is a much narrower window to the vitals, had I held to the broadside shot plan, the odds are greater the hit would have been to the vitals even though he moved; however failing to account for his move closer while obscured by the cows, It would have hit high. In the heat of the moment I failed to consider all of the factors at my disposal, and was too caught up in taking the shot before an elk winded me and they blew out.
However, my first error was in applying for an archery elk permit solo. I had the hard work after a kill covered, but with my limitations I should have been applying with at least one other hunter who could more ably pursue a wounded animal. Having spent my 11 points, that is probably moot for Washington, but when I next burn my Wyoming elk points, it will be with other hunters. Same if I hunt general elk season in Washington. I can't ethically be the only legal shooter - again, my ethics, not anyone else's. Things go other than as planned.
On the second bull, I've been asked more than once if I could have slipped the arrow between the rib cage and shoulder. That is a definite possibility on a frontal shot, especially if the elk is angled rather than dead on. He was dead on. The shot placement was right on, the arrow penetrated entirely, and there is no way the arrow didn't encounter and cut major blood vessels and lung on its path. The cough and fall also make me very confident that is what happened and he was a dead bull. I don't know why we didn't find him, but in the timbered wet soil, under an open canopy cutover thinning, with chest high grass and extremely dense hawthorn, willows, rose and other shrubs, I know we could have been within several feet and not seen him. If I had gone back the next day and the next, I'm pretty sure the scavengers would have shown us where he was. In an ideal world I would have passed the shot and waited for that broadside, to better ensure a blood trail to follow. For some hunters, there is a satisfaction in finding the dead animal long after any meat recovery is possible. I have done that in the past once, and found the bull on the third day (35 yard broadside shot) - it gave me something to do while my partner continued to hunt elk, but it didn't bring me any additional satisfaction. I have all the mounts, skulls and antlers I'll ever want or need, locating the kill after the possibility of meat recovery is gone doesn't do anything for me. Once I'm confident I killed an animal, I'm done with that tag, whether it gets notched or not.
Post by: huntingfool7 on December 19, 2017, 10:08:05 AM
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on December 19, 2017, 10:09:46 AM
Post by: jackelope on December 19, 2017, 10:14:32 AM
Thanks for sharing Double lung. Now someone post a picture of the ideal shot placement on a frontal bull.
http://www.elk101.com/features/shot-placement-feature/
Post by: Okanagan on December 19, 2017, 10:16:58 AM
With calm unlimited time, a comfortable chair and hindsight, it is easy to tell someone our opinion of what he did wrong or that he might have done differently in the moment of action. We can learn as we dissect what happened and prep for a similar situation in the future without dissing the man that was there. He acted in the moment of having a shot, the situation every elk hunter is seeking and a majority rarely achieve.
Thanks for posting.
Re the hind quarter shot: my FIL shot an arrow from a recurve bow at a bear facing him at 18-20 yards. The bear whirled at the release and the arrow hit him in the hindquarter angling forward, in this case a quickly lethal arrow placement. I.e. An animal can move significantly during arrow flight, even from a quick compound bow.
Post by: jackelope on December 19, 2017, 10:17:49 AM
https://trapperman.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/6091786/1
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 19, 2017, 10:20:12 AM
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on December 19, 2017, 10:36:04 AM
my issue i have with this is he said in the second paragraph that we would limit his shots to "broadside at 40 yards" yet he goes on to say he arrowed 2 bulls and neither of them fit this criteria. yes i can understand that shooting at a quartering away bull because of the likelehood of a kill but at 40 yards aiming for the off shoulder you would be shooting over 2 feet left to hit him in the ass where he said he did. Then he goes on to say that the second bull he aimed for the "bulge in the neck where the trachea is"...where is that in comparison to a broadside bull's heart/lung area ?It is a shot to the heart/lung area through the opening where the esophagus and trachea enter the body cavity. It is a 6-8" target at 90 degrees to the broadside heart/lung shot. Disadvantages are the smaller target and reduced blood trail unless the jugular or carotid are severed, which are located on the edges of that opening which result in massive bleeding and very fast death. I hit the center of that opening, behind the trachea within the body the trachea branches into the bronchi and then lungs. It is also a path through concentrated major blood vessels from the top of the heart to the major blood vessels above the heart: aortas and pulmonary arteries.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 19, 2017, 10:43:25 AM
Post by: tlbradford on December 19, 2017, 10:55:49 AM
Gutsy post to make with such honesty. You did some very good hunting and had some very bad luck. The best hunters I know may kid around at times, and they do not tell some of their stories to many folks, but when talking seriously with another good hunter, they never fudge the truth. We don't learn anything unless we are ruthlessly honest about what happened, what we did, what the animal did etc.
With calm unlimited time, a comfortable chair and hindsight, it is easy to tell someone our opinion of what he did wrong or that he might have done differently in the moment of action. We can learn as we dissect what happened and prep for a similar situation in the future without dissing the man that was there. He acted in the moment of having a shot, the situation every elk hunter is seeking and a majority rarely achieve.
Thanks for posting.
Re the hind quarter shot: my FIL shot an arrow from a recurve bow at a bear facing him at 18-20 yards. The bear whirled at the release and the arrow hit him in the hindquarter angling forward, in this case a quickly lethal arrow placement. I.e. An animal can move significantly during arrow flight, even from a quick compound bow.
Thanks Okanagan for expressing exactly what I was thinking.
Thank you Double Lung for sharing your experience so others can learn.
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on December 19, 2017, 11:01:18 AM
Good stuff doublelung. You let me know when you are ready for wyoming. I'll run down your cripples like a cheetah :chuckle: :tup:Perfect!
Post by: KFhunter on December 19, 2017, 11:18:37 AM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on December 19, 2017, 11:43:37 AM
Post by: highside74 on December 19, 2017, 11:48:28 AM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 19, 2017, 12:39:18 PM
Good stuff doublelung. You let me know when you are ready for wyoming. I'll run down your cripples like a cheetah :chuckle: :tup:You better get a new knee before running like a cheetah too much!
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on December 19, 2017, 12:49:54 PM
It sounds to me like he or his partners were struggling with whether or not to shoot it with a gun.I wasn't struggling but my buddy was. I think for him it had more to do with harvesting the elk rather than any perceived suffering on the elk's part, he didn't want the elk to get away and was pretty confident I couldn't seal the deal.
It is interesting to me when ethics start to override what the rules are.
I was not interested in having him shoot it because 1) illegality and 2) I was confident it was not a mortal wound. I knew the odds were low of harvesting the bull, because it was not an incapacitating shot, and I was pretty confident he would recover if I could not harvest him. Had it been a slow death mortal wound, e.g. gut shot, I would not have wanted him to shoot the bull because with a good vantage to keep watch and observe, the odds would have been much better that time and patience would have eventually had him lay or fall down, and either die or be vulnerable to a stalk and finisher.
That said, there are times where personal ethics may dictate breaking the law. All I have to contribute on that end is that an ethical motivation is not a hall pass. Deciding to break the law, in my book, is also taking ownership of the consequences if caught. When my personal ethics have dictated breaking the law, I accept that I'll face the consequences if I do so. In the game violations arena though, over the years I've seen a lot of guys get really butt hurt and feel abused when they got caught "doing the right thing". Interestingly, I've also seen a lot of situations where it sure looked like straight up poaching, but the perpetrators try to argue that in fact they were doing the right thing.
Post by: h20hunter on December 19, 2017, 12:58:17 PM
Well said.
Post by: slowhand on December 19, 2017, 01:04:38 PM
#1 where I shot from
#2 where was the animal standing
#3 what direction did the animal head
#4 treat the entire area ahead of the shooter like a crime scene
#5 one person in the lead looking for sign the others stay behind to look for any additional tracks or sign. They like to back track and do a Circle.
flag tape everything that is a for sure sign in one color (Red) and possible in another color (Yellow).
#6 only move forward on the "tracking trail" when We are 100% confident of a piece of sign
My family finds the tracking part of bow hunting to be one on the most enjoyable parts.
I am sure You guys did Your very best. The emotional roller coaster of tracking can not be understated.
Thank You for telling the story, I wish You the best. Any other tracking tips? I am always up to learn more.
Post by: Rainier10 on December 19, 2017, 01:20:30 PM
Great post.It sounds to me like he or his partners were struggling with whether or not to shoot it with a gun.I wasn't struggling but my buddy was. I think for him it had more to do with harvesting the elk rather than any perceived suffering on the elk's part, he didn't want the elk to get away and was pretty confident I couldn't seal the deal.
It is interesting to me when ethics start to override what the rules are.
I was not interested in having him shoot it because 1) illegality and 2) I was confident it was not a mortal wound. I knew the odds were low of harvesting the bull, because it was not an incapacitating shot, and I was pretty confident he would recover if I could not harvest him. Had it been a slow death mortal wound, e.g. gut shot, I would not have wanted him to shoot the bull because with a good vantage to keep watch and observe, the odds would have been much better that time and patience would have eventually had him lay or fall down, and either die or be vulnerable to a stalk and finisher.
That said, there are times where personal ethics may dictate breaking the law. All I have to contribute on that end is that an ethical motivation is not a hall pass. Deciding to break the law, in my book, is also taking ownership of the consequences if caught. When my personal ethics have dictated breaking the law, I accept that I'll face the consequences if I do so. In the game violations arena though, over the years I've seen a lot of guys get really butt hurt and feel abused when they got caught "doing the right thing". Interestingly, I've also seen a lot of situations where it sure looked like straight up poaching, but the perpetrators try to argue that in fact they were doing the right thing.
I would think that having one of your partners on the edge of indecisiveness in what to do made it all that much tougher. Maybe in this situation it was easy to stand behind your beliefs but in the moment of emotions running so high and probably all over the place I just think it would be difficult.
I can't second guess any of your decisions as I was not there.
I applaud your effort and am really glad that you posted this thread for all to have a discussion and hopefully learn from your experience.
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on December 19, 2017, 01:29:47 PM
So over the many years of Deer/Elk hunting My family and I have learned several things that have helped us find animals that produced no blood trail.I do all of that except perhaps #4 and only use one roll of flagging. The lead tracker focuses on sign, the one behind who will take the follow up shot scans forward (sometimes with binoculars) and minimizes focus on the track. Under dry open conditions, getting your face parallel with the ground and sighting along the track will often show a "shine" where most recently disturbed. A busted stick the length of the animal's stride can be very helpful in locating the next piece of sign.
#1 where I shot from
#2 where was the animal standing
#3 what direction did the animal head
#4 treat the entire area ahead of the shooter like a crime scene
#5 one person in the lead looking for sign the others stay behind to look for any additional tracks or sign. They like to back track and do a Circle.
flag tape everything that is a for sure sign in one color (Red) and possible in another color (Yellow).
#6 only move forward on the "tracking trail" when We are 100% confident of a piece of sign
My family finds the tracking part of bow hunting to be one on the most enjoyable parts.
I am sure You guys did Your very best. The emotional roller coaster of tracking can not be understated.
Thank You for telling the story, I wish You the best. Any other tracking tips? I am always up to learn more.
I've also had some good luck with GPS grid searches after losing the trail, zooming in to the smallest field of view and laying the tracks right next to the previous track line. My screen width is 200' at that level, and it is pretty easy to lay the track lines on top of each other at 20-30' intervals, and also identifies the holes where you have to go around for a closer look. The down side with tracking the bull was primarily that 70+ elk had moved through that area shortly before the shot, and once off the knob I shot from, very tall dense vegetation.
Post by: Rainier10 on December 19, 2017, 01:44:23 PM
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on December 19, 2017, 01:47:04 PM
There is a huge lesson in this.....get out there and enjoy every second you can. You never know when life circumstances will get in the way and we won’t be able to do it like we want.Thanks. I was "fortunate" to expect to die young from a heart attack, so I front-loaded life with a lot of experiences I might have put off with a normal life expectancy :) All of the men in my dad's line died between 21 and 42, either form known heart attacks or unknown causes (that were probably heart attacks). I was 8 and my dad was a fit, healthy 29 year old when he had his first heart attack in '74, and medical science had advanced enough to identify the genetic causes behind it. He picked up a good gene, as he was the first to survive the first attack (he's 72 now, healthy and still working), and 44 when he survived a really severe one by great good fortune and had a 7-way bypass. I got a big benefit when statins came around, and between that and knowing a whole lot more than my forefathers had the benefit of, I went to the ER at 37 at the first hint of chest pain and got my first two stents. I'm up to 7 now. My son was five and I opted for very aggressive treatment to maximize my likelihood of surviving to 50, when he would be 18. Mission accomplished!
Hats off to you for pushing the edges still and putting boots to ground. From what I’ve gathered over the years here you have had a storied career in the outdoors and what you’ve shared here on this thread must have been a hard pill to swallow, but atlas Good men share, learn and move on. Good job good sir. :tup:
Post by: slowhand on December 19, 2017, 02:33:24 PM
One thing that I would add to that list and I think DL did this if I am reading it correctly is we never have the shooter as the lead guy. Emotions are high and they aren't always thinking clear. We put a guy in the lead that has no emotions about the shot or finding the animal, they are just looking at what is in front of them, not what they "want" to see.Forgot that one
Yes We do that also
Post by: jstone on December 19, 2017, 02:51:05 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on December 19, 2017, 03:07:55 PM
We put the shooter at the last known blood, if the animal jumps up in front of us he should be close and ready. Plus it is a positive distraction getting to move forward everytime new blood or a confirmed track is found.One thing that I would add to that list and I think DL did this if I am reading it correctly is we never have the shooter as the lead guy. Emotions are high and they aren't always thinking clear. We put a guy in the lead that has no emotions about the shot or finding the animal, they are just looking at what is in front of them, not what they "want" to see.Forgot that one
Yes We do that also
Post by: branches on December 19, 2017, 06:46:06 PM
Post by: bowhunterforever on December 19, 2017, 06:50:57 PM
Bad shots happen. With any weapon. Mistakes are made and that’s how we learn to be better hunters. Thanks for the story Doublelung..!! Your a stand up guy!!:yeah: Also it never ceases to amaze me how tough the wild animals are.
Post by: idaho guy on December 19, 2017, 06:52:18 PM
tagging for next update. Curious what caused your first shot to miss and hit they far back. Sounds like he will survive which is the good part.
I was hunting alone and called an elk in that came straight in close then spooked and I cow called and stopped him at 20 yards quartering away. I shot and hit him squarely in the butt also! I think he jumped forward at the release. It was not a fatal hit although I spent a lot time looking and he was a really nice bull. I really appreciate this post Dl and others I have read from you. You do have a lot of knowledge. Also Jackelope If a bowhunter should stick to rifles for sticking arrows in trees I should have quit years ago :chuckle:
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 20, 2017, 05:49:01 AM
:yeah: Shoot me in the butt with a broadhead and I'm going to die right there!Bad shots happen. With any weapon. Mistakes are made and that’s how we learn to be better hunters. Thanks for the story Doublelung..!! Your a stand up guy!!:yeah: Also it never ceases to amaze me how tough the wild animals are.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 20, 2017, 06:05:44 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 20, 2017, 06:35:22 AM
Post by: cbond3318 on December 20, 2017, 07:45:33 AM
:yeah: Shoot me in the butt with a broadhead and I'm going to die right there!Bad shots happen. With any weapon. Mistakes are made and that’s how we learn to be better hunters. Thanks for the story Doublelung..!! Your a stand up guy!!:yeah: Also it never ceases to amaze me how tough the wild animals are.
:chuckle:
Post by: bigbullshedhunter on December 20, 2017, 01:04:08 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 20, 2017, 01:08:36 PM
I took frontal shot at 8 yds on a 340 idaho bull this last sept. Found the last 6 inches of the arrow snapped off. The rest sank in him. Lots of blood for first 100 yds then nothin. Jumped him twice the next couple days. Never ended up finding him. So first year I havnt shot a bull. Pretty frustrating. Especially since I'd been trail camin him all year. Will more than likely never archery hunt again. Ruined it for me.
...OR you could stop beating yourself up and realize a couple of things. 1. nothing is wasted in nature, and 2. It doesn't matter which discipline you use, you can lose an animal for hundreds of reasons, most of them unknown until you actually do it. I would wait a while before I'd start selling my bow, were I you. :dunno:
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 20, 2017, 01:25:30 PM
I took frontal shot at 8 yds on a 340 idaho bull this last sept. Found the last 6 inches of the arrow snapped off. The rest sank in him. Lots of blood for first 100 yds then nothin. Jumped him twice the next couple days. Never ended up finding him. So first year I havnt shot a bull. Pretty frustrating. Especially since I'd been trail camin him all year. Will more than likely never archery hunt again. Ruined it for me.
Hear ya. Son and I love the action with archery but its not worth the potential heartache for him so we rifle hunt. I can appreciate his position, you either get where you can shrug it off or just take broadside 35 yard shots to minimize chance of loss which still can happen when they jump the string or other. Hunting takes luck - to find em, see-em, shoot at em - and yes, takes luck to drop em, rarely 100% and with primitive weapons I ballpark it at 80%.
Post by: 2MANY on December 20, 2017, 02:00:20 PM
I took frontal shot at 8 yds on a 340 idaho bull this last sept. Found the last 6 inches of the arrow snapped off. The rest sank in him. Lots of blood for first 100 yds then nothin. Jumped him twice the next couple days. Never ended up finding him. So first year I havnt shot a bull. Pretty frustrating. Especially since I'd been trail camin him all year. Will more than likely never archery hunt again. Ruined it for me.
I feel for Double Lung and all others.
I did the same thing recently on a similar sized bull.
Not totally straight on but slightly quartering.
I tried sneaking the arrow in-front of the rib area but it slid under the hide and down the outside of the ribs.
Sickening.
Found the bull again a day later and a few miles away screaming his head off with a group of cows.
Unfortunately this time he didn't charge in to fight this bone head of a challenger.
I should have shot him walking broadside at 25 yards but I didn't and he turned towards me and locked up.
My bad but you are not alone.
Post by: 2MANY on December 20, 2017, 02:02:35 PM
I would be willing to put in with someone who is a slower runner than myself.
Hate them grizzly bears.
Post by: Seahawk12 on December 20, 2017, 03:16:44 PM
If your buddy had a drone in the back of the truck would you have used it to locate the downed elk?
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on December 21, 2017, 08:05:36 AM
Just curious.If it is legal, yes.
If your buddy had a drone in the back of the truck would you have used it to locate the downed elk?
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on December 21, 2017, 08:10:04 AM
I was at an elk conference in 1991. A Montana bio had brought an elk heart in a jar for show and tell. A hunter had given him the heart because it had a weird bump on the side. He had cut it away and there was a .30 cal mushroomed bullet embedded in the wall of the heart, healed over. The bull was acting perfectly healthy until the hunter killed it with a shot through the lungs.Bad shots happen. With any weapon. Mistakes are made and that’s how we learn to be better hunters. Thanks for the story Doublelung..!! Your a stand up guy!!:yeah: Also it never ceases to amaze me how tough the wild animals are.
Post by: Tbob on December 26, 2017, 03:30:28 PM
I’d be heart broken not finding that bull, but for me, as long as I know I did everything I could to recover that bull, then I’m gonna keep my chin up and learn from that encounter! It’s all part of the experience man! And it’s an experience that most people (non-hunters) will never experience or understand. Better luck next time sir..
The more alarming thing to me about this story is the Angina!! You wouldn’t catch me out in the woods solo ever with things like that happening.. risky if you ask me dude!