Post by: GurrCentral on January 29, 2018, 10:13:17 PM
Make sure to follow the link provided to buy tickets, donate items, donate towards our life member giveaway and also register for our Beginners Luck and Life Member Sheep Hunt Drawings!
https://wwsf.schoolauction.net/wawsfauction2018/homepages/show (may have to copy and paste to your browser)
For additional information please visit washingtonwsf.org , or stop by our facebook page. As we get closer we will update this thread with some of the fantastic live auction and raffle items.
Thank you for your support for Washington Wild Sheep!
Post by: huntnphool on January 29, 2018, 11:27:29 PM
Post by: Falcon on February 04, 2018, 09:10:48 AM
Our new location, the Murano Hotel will allow for a bigger and better venue.
Don’t miss out on a super fun night. It will sell out as usual, so go online and get signed up today. 👊💥👊
Post by: scree on February 06, 2018, 10:20:48 PM
Post by: coachcw on February 07, 2018, 06:32:00 AM
Post by: brocka on February 07, 2018, 07:58:21 AM
Post by: Ridgerunner on February 07, 2018, 08:08:18 AM
Post by: NoBark on February 07, 2018, 09:04:31 AM
Post by: starbailey on February 09, 2018, 06:16:31 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on February 09, 2018, 07:18:10 AM
Post by: Netminder01 on February 09, 2018, 08:16:08 AM
Don't forget to mention a 7 day BC trap line trip for 2 people Scree. It will be a cool trip for someone.
Looks like a dream! Very cool!!!
Post by: Duckhunter14 on February 09, 2018, 09:22:11 AM
Post by: Ridgerunner on February 09, 2018, 10:16:12 AM
Post by: elkaholic123 on February 09, 2018, 10:25:28 AM
Post by: JoeE on February 09, 2018, 02:05:14 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 09, 2018, 02:10:08 PM
I wish they would have moved it closer to the North end :bash:you spelled eastern Washington wrong :chuckle:
Post by: elkaholic123 on February 09, 2018, 02:29:53 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on February 09, 2018, 03:01:13 PM
Glad they moved it to the south end! :IBCOOL::yeah: plus I’ll save money not playing in the casino afterwards!
Post by: jackelope on February 09, 2018, 03:30:41 PM
Have prior commitments, as it seems I do every year for this event.
Post by: jackelope on February 09, 2018, 03:31:02 PM
Glad they moved it to the south end! :IBCOOL::yeah: plus I’ll save money not playing in the casino afterwards!
Now you can bid on the moose auction.
Post by: Falcon on February 09, 2018, 07:39:38 PM
First year. Cant wait.
You won’t be disappointed :tup:
Post by: trophyhunt on February 09, 2018, 08:53:58 PM
lol, I’ll be able to bid for about 30 seconds! I actually won a bid a couple years ago. It was for an elk trap and tag experience, felt like a big baller! Cost me about 120 bucks! LolGlad they moved it to the south end! :IBCOOL::yeah: plus I’ll save money not playing in the casino afterwards!
Now you can bid on the moose auction.
Post by: GurrCentral on February 10, 2018, 08:36:21 PM
- Kuiu Rain Gear Package
- Hilleberg tent
- Stone Glacier Pack
- Maven Optics Bino's
As well as.....
- Keister Custom Rifle 6.5-300 whby
- Kimber SubAlpine .300 win mag
- Kimber Mt. Ascent .280 Ackley
- Kimber Mt. Ascent 7mm Rem.
- Kimber Adirondack 6.5 Creedmore
- Sig P38 9mm
- Sig 1911
to name a few, but not all of the firearms in the raffle.....
Going to be a great evening to put some sheep on the mountain for sure!
Post by: scree on February 14, 2018, 07:31:30 PM
Ultima Thules very own Don Martin is the WSF's 2018 G.C.F. Dalziel Outstanding Guide Award!
Awarded for a deep commitment to high ethical standards and sportsmanship and a consistent willingness to ensure a quality hunting experience for his clients.
Canol Outfitters received Both the Silver and Bronze medal awards in 2018 for Archery Dall's Sheep!
Time is running out and tickets are limited. Get them now at Washingtonwsf.org
click on the Alt Banquet PDF below for a preview :IBCOOL:
Post by: huntnphool on February 16, 2018, 12:11:48 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 16, 2018, 05:24:48 AM
Post by: GurrCentral on February 25, 2018, 02:40:15 PM
Post by: westside Elkhunter on February 26, 2018, 07:08:42 AM
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Post by: Ridgerunner on February 26, 2018, 08:28:22 AM
Post by: westside Elkhunter on February 26, 2018, 04:10:13 PM
Yes there are, where else can you potentially win 2 sheep hunts in one night.Awesome. Thank you
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Post by: WAcoueshunter on February 26, 2018, 04:25:02 PM
Are there still tickets left?
Yes, but only for people who have shot wild sheep before. :chuckle:
Post by: scree on March 04, 2018, 08:45:56 PM
Post by: Calvin Rayborn on March 09, 2018, 01:51:37 AM
Post by: rsrubalcaba on March 10, 2018, 04:48:55 PM
Post by: lokidog on March 10, 2018, 07:17:44 PM
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Post by: greenhead_killer on March 10, 2018, 10:28:12 PM
Post by: Duckhunter14 on March 10, 2018, 10:45:03 PM
I never win anything and I got lucky and won a Kimber Mtn Ascent 7 mag! That was a great time. Lots of money raised for wild sheep!
Clint
Post by: JoeE on March 10, 2018, 11:08:41 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on March 10, 2018, 11:10:22 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on March 10, 2018, 11:11:11 PM
The woman who won both Dall sheep hunts is the wife of the Vice President of the Washington Wild Sheep foundation.umm,
Post by: Russ McDonald on March 11, 2018, 05:43:47 AM
It is a non profit right? Was it a raffle or Auction? Believe me alot of money come from the committee of our chap ter at our event. We are all volunteers and the money goes to a good cause.The woman who won both Dall sheep hunts is the wife of the Vice President of the Washington Wild Sheep foundation.umm, wtf.
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Post by: trophyhunt on March 11, 2018, 08:36:41 AM
Trust me, I’m a huge fan and life member of wash wild Sheep. I love the events and what they do for wild Sheep, you have to admit it looks fishy when a board members wife wins both draws. They are random draws, not raffle or auction. Your name goes in a hat for just being a life member and the other is a random draw for those who have never killed a sheep and buy a 50.00 shirt.It is a non profit right? Was it a raffle or Auction? Believe me alot of money come from the committee of our chap ter at our event. We are all volunteers and the money goes to a good cause.The woman who won both Dall sheep hunts is the wife of the Vice President of the Washington Wild Sheep foundation.umm, wtf.
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Post by: JoeE on March 11, 2018, 08:41:29 AM
It is a non profit right? Was it a raffle or Auction? Believe me alot of money come from the committee of our chap ter at our event. We are all volunteers and the money goes to a good cause.The woman who won both Dall sheep hunts is the wife of the Vice President of the Washington Wild Sheep foundation.umm, wtf.
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
It was neither. If you are a life member your name goes in the pot. And then if you’ve never killed a sheep then your name goes in another pot. Your name goes on a card and then it’s hand drawn from the pot.
Post by: JoeE on March 11, 2018, 08:50:50 AM
Post by: bearhunter99 on March 11, 2018, 09:20:18 AM
Thanks
Post by: JoeE on March 11, 2018, 09:25:55 AM
Anyone remember what the 7 day trapline went for?
Thanks
$5500 according to the prices my wife was writing down in the banque program.
Post by: vandeman17 on March 11, 2018, 09:37:45 AM
Unreal, the odds of winning both hunts are unreal, makes you wonder if it’s on the up n up!!!
Had something similar happen at rmef banquets multiple times. Makes me hesitant to even go and if I do, to spend much money.
Post by: walleye1 on March 11, 2018, 10:08:36 AM
Post by: coachcw on March 11, 2018, 02:55:10 PM
Post by: elkaholic123 on March 11, 2018, 03:14:20 PM
im going moose hunting and have a nice bench to sit on! :tup::yike: :tup:
Post by: lhrbull on March 11, 2018, 03:18:33 PM
Post by: Tjv28 on March 11, 2018, 05:39:55 PM
Post by: Tjv28 on March 11, 2018, 05:43:08 PM
Post by: JoeE on March 11, 2018, 06:04:56 PM
But the fact that it was an insider who won, and who was also involved in handling the tickets, and her husband was on the stage during the drawing reaks of an inside job. Nobody in the room except those on the comittee know exactly how many tickets were in the tumbler and who’s name went on those tickets.
Post by: JoeE on March 11, 2018, 06:05:39 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on March 11, 2018, 06:49:22 PM
I’ll be the first to admit that anybody has the same odds of winning both drawings, but that fact that she won both, and was the one taking money for membership tickets is just way too fishy.... she was literally the one put the tickets in the hat. Oh, and the other person drawn just happened to not be there?!i agree, not to drag this on but that process needs to change.
Post by: Tbar on March 11, 2018, 06:54:58 PM
Looks good to me.... :dunno: :chuckle:I’ll be the first to admit that anybody has the same odds of winning both drawings, but that fact that she won both, and was the one taking money for membership tickets is just way too fishy.... she was literally the one put the tickets in the hat. Oh, and the other person drawn just happened to not be there?!i agree, not to drag this on but that process needs to change.
Post by: nwhunter on March 11, 2018, 07:02:12 PM
Post by: JoeE on March 11, 2018, 07:09:47 PM
Post by: jackelope on March 11, 2018, 07:19:43 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on March 11, 2018, 07:20:37 PM
I think its pretty sad that this has turned into an online conspiracy .. The people who have put more time and effort that anyone get unbelievably lucky and now its being discussed in front of the whole world that some people feel it was an inside job..? Nobody wants to win those sheep hunts more than me and did I shake my head and think wow that is next to impossible, but like everyone else in the room I watched them blind draw the winners including someone who wasn't present that could have won.. Sure go ahead and nicely present your ideas of change to the board via email or phone call but to call them out for an inside job on here is rude . ..Your completely wrong, I want to win one of those hunts more than you! 😁I don’t see anyone saying it’s a conspiracy, I see people looking at the odds of what happened and wondering how that could happen. You could do that draw over a million times and not get the same results. I don’t feel anyone is more deserving of a less than one draw than the other. It was a great night and I look forward to it every year, I don’t think we should take it personall that people question what happens when the circumstances were what they are. I do think we should be putting our own names in the hat, like before, and if someone is in charge of putting all the names in, maybe they shouldn’t be in the draw? Just a thought.
Post by: trophyhunt on March 11, 2018, 07:23:12 PM
im going moose hunting and have a nice bench to sit on! :tup:our table was the best!! 😜. It was great to hang with you and Chris!
Post by: scree on March 11, 2018, 07:24:23 PM
Now let me address Tammy winning both sheep hunts. First, she has been a life member for a very long time. Her life member number is below 100 and we are now pushing 500. She has been in every life member drawing we have had since we started giving away sheep hunts. Also that entire time she had been a VOLUNTEER in our membership booth where the tickets are kept. Over the years she has volunteered hundreds of hours of her time for the betterment of our organization. Is it possible that she could have put her name in there multiple times? Yes possible, but she did NOT. For the good of the order, and because I knew this was going to be a hot topic, Board Member Joe Hill and I went thru both tumblers this morning (which were kept under lock and key with only Joe having access) low and behold her name was not in either tumbler....because her name had been removed during the drawing.
Organizationally, why would we want this to happen? How could we possibly benefit? We don't want it to happen (with anyone, we would rather spread the wealth) and we don't benefit.
Luck, good or bad can not be controlled. I have spent way more than I would like to admit on raffles. The last time I won anything of value was 2007....just my bad luck; odds say I should have won something by now.
Impossible odds? No, just extremely bad odds, but none the less it happened. It could have happened to anyone with their name in both tumblers, same odds of it happening.
And as for her husband being on stage, he was not on stage during the life member drawing, only the little girl (who has no relation to Tammy) who drew Glen and I. He may have been on stage during the Beginner's Luck drawing; I don't recall, but even if he was, it does not change anything. He did not draw the winner, that was done by Don Martin, of Ultima Thule outfitters.
If anyone would like to have a conversation to discuss it further I am always happy to talk.
Andy Kelso
President WA WSF
Post by: Russ McDonald on March 11, 2018, 07:36:35 PM
First and foremost thanks to everyone that came and supported WA WSF last night. It was a great night and we raised some good money for wild sheep. I am proud of our membership!Well said sir. I agree with everthing yo u said. Congrats to everyone who went. Rember it us all about conservation people. Winning something is just a bonus.
Now let me address Tammy winning both sheep hunts. First, she has been a life member for a very long time. Her life member number is below 100 and we are now pushing 500. She has been in every life member drawing we have had since we started giving away sheep hunts. Also that entire time she had been a VOLUNTEER in our membership booth where the tickets are kept. Over the years she has volunteered hundreds of hours of her time for the betterment of our organization. Is it possible that she could have put her name in there multiple times? Yes possible, but she did NOT. For the good of the order, and because I knew this was going to be a hot topic, Board Member Joe Hill and I went thru both tumblers this morning (which were kept under lock and key with only Joe having access) low and behold her name was not in either tumbler....because her name had been removed during the drawing.
Organizationally, why would we want this to happen? How could we possibly benefit? We don't want it to happen (with anyone, we would rather spread the wealth) and we don't benefit.
Luck, good or bad can not be controlled. I have spent way more than I would like to admit on raffles. The last time I won anything of value was 2007....just my bad luck; odds say I should have won something by now.
Impossible odds? No, just extremely bad odds, but none the less it happened. It could have happened to anyone with their name in both tumblers, same odds of it happening.
And as for her husband being on stage, he was not on stage during the life member drawing, only the little girl (who has no relation to Tammy) who drew Glen and I. He may have been on stage during the Beginner's Luck drawing; I don't recall, but even if he was, it does not change anything. He did not draw the winner, that was done by Don Martin, of Ultima Thule outfitters.
If anyone would like to have a conversation to discuss it further I am always happy to talk.
Andy Kelso
President WA WSF
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Post by: Whitpirate on March 11, 2018, 08:36:02 PM
The woman who won both Dall sheep hunts is the wife of the Vice President of the Washington Wild Sheep foundation.umm,
You were sitting right by me... You know it ain't fixed. Damn the luck. There is always a shot next year. The gal deserves it.
Post by: trophyhunt on March 11, 2018, 09:03:36 PM
I don’t think it was rigged, I don’t blame people questioning the draw, the odds are truly very slim. My wife wants to know what that resturant is called in Venice that has that risotto??The woman who won both Dall sheep hunts is the wife of the Vice President of the Washington Wild Sheep foundation.umm,
You were sitting right by me... You know it ain't fixed. Damn the luck. There is always a shot next year. The gal deserves it.
Post by: Tjv28 on March 11, 2018, 09:38:26 PM
Post by: Whitpirate on March 11, 2018, 09:39:29 PM
I don’t think it was rigged, I don’t blame people questioning the draw, the odds are truly very slim. My wife wants to know what that resturant is called in Venice that has that risotto??The woman who won both Dall sheep hunts is the wife of the Vice President of the Washington Wild Sheep foundation.umm,
You were sitting right by me... You know it ain't fixed. Damn the luck. There is always a shot next year. The gal deserves it.
https://www.daromano.it/
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 12, 2018, 06:39:40 AM
I’m just saying it doesn’t look good for the organization... I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a drop off next year
Absolutely!!
Post by: Ghost Hunter on March 12, 2018, 07:42:02 AM
Post by: JoeE on March 12, 2018, 08:29:32 AM
Anyway, no use beating a dead horse. The WSF committee said it was on the up and up so it must be. On the surface, what happened at that banquet looks beyond shady. It’ll be interesting to see what happens at future banquets and if there is a drop off in participation. A lot of people left pretty irritated the other night.
Post by: PlateauNDN on March 12, 2018, 08:38:46 AM
Post by: Whitpirate on March 12, 2018, 02:59:19 PM
Post by: PlateauNDN on March 12, 2018, 03:40:20 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on March 12, 2018, 04:09:05 PM
Post by: scree on March 12, 2018, 06:48:27 PM
Also a point of clarification on the beginner's luck (our version of national WSF's <1) you must be a WA WSF life member not just a general member.
Post by: trophyhunt on March 12, 2018, 06:55:09 PM
Thanks for the clarification, I wasn’t quite sure.
Also a point of clarification on the beginner's luck (our version of national WSF's <1) you must be a WA WSF life member not just a general member.
Post by: Falcon on March 12, 2018, 07:46:03 PM
Forgot to say thanks to Coach for buying my bench. I wish I kept track of the hours put into making them, it was a lot. I think they are one of my best projects to date. I do think that you picked the wrong one :chuckle:.....man I really wanted to keep that WA WSF logo one...I darn near didn't put that one in the auction.
Also a point of clarification on the beginner's luck (our version of national WSF's <1) you must be a WA WSF life member not just a general member.
Coach,
I wanted that bench and shouldn’t have stopped at 800. A beautiful bench and quite a conversation piece :tup:
Post by: PlateauNDN on March 12, 2018, 08:50:08 PM
True, the first drawing is for anyone who has never killed a sheep before, bought a $50.00 shirt and were members of wash wild Sheep. The 2nd draw is for Washington wild Sheep life members, and you must be present. The first drawing is called the less than one club, it is not guaranteed that they have that drawing every year, we’ve had it the past few years due to very generous donations. It may or may not happen, we usually find out later in the year. But your out, no less than one for you Plat!!! 😜 you should go next year, it’s damn fun. And with coach at your table, you know you’ll get balloons at your table!!
Yes but technically I've never killed a sheep let alone 2 according to WDFW. Technically. :dunno: :chuckle:
Post by: coachcw on March 12, 2018, 09:19:40 PM
Post by: coachcw on March 12, 2018, 09:22:49 PM
Post by: coachcw on March 12, 2018, 09:34:23 PM
Post by: JoeE on March 12, 2018, 09:50:11 PM
If we witnessed an actual miracle take place that’s fine but considering the circumstances it should raise questions with everybody who was there.
Some things have been cleared up but you can’t shrug off how completely unlikely that was for ANYBODY to have happen to them, let alone the people who controlled the tickets.
Everybody who was there donated their money and time towards conservation.
Post by: coachcw on March 12, 2018, 10:25:25 PM
Post by: Falcon on March 15, 2018, 08:15:08 PM
Right everyone donated including those that one ...look at Kevin Vandam a couple years ago . Five k card . Gun safe and sheep hunt . I guess I'm just not a skecptic. I saw lots of named in the tumbler when I looked and certainly if I was gonna rig it I'd make sure it was on the second chance draw . Look I'm not trying to rag on our members just giving good people benefit of the doubt
:yeah:
It was a great event and yes someone got extremely lucky. I work with this group and I am 100% sure that there was no messing with the raffle. Proud to work with a quality group of guys and gals who work to put more sheep on the mountain👊💥👊
Post by: walleye1 on March 15, 2018, 08:50:43 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on March 15, 2018, 09:45:34 PM
Lets see if we can all bitch enough so they just quite giving sheep hunts awayI don’t believe that’s going to happen, I erased much of what I wanted to say because it might be taken the wrong way. For the record, I support all that the wild sheep foundation does, I am a proud life time member. Now, if you were there and didn’t question to yourself the reality of what happened, your a saint. It’s ok that guys question what happened, it may cause a change for the better? If it was just a couple people who felt something was up, oh well, but it wasn’t. I don’t blame guys for questioning what/how that could happen, I don’t personally feel it was fraud. But it certainly crossed my mind, just being honest, which usually gets me in trouble. But, I’ll be honest no matter what it cost me.
Post by: dingle on March 16, 2018, 07:29:53 AM
Post by: Branden on March 16, 2018, 07:48:04 AM
This year in Washington another person beat the odds and won both sheep hunts.
Both these raffles have same odds for everyone because you can't buy multiple tickets for the raffles.
When it comes to things like raffles, lotteries, etc greed comes into play and eventually you will read that one of the conservation groups local or national chapters had some funny business going on with a raffle. Not saying there was anything wrong with either of the 2 events I listed above. Those are just examples of major odds being overcome by luck. You see fraud with churches, government, charities, so why would conservation groups be excluded? Mark my words it will come out whether it happens at a small local turkey banquet or something big like the western hunt expo. When crazy odds get overcome time and again eventually it won't be just luck. It will be tampering.
Post by: Bob33 on March 16, 2018, 08:01:02 AM
The same person has won a tag from the western hunt expo raffle multiple years in a row.
This year in Washington another person beat the odds and won both sheep hunts.
Both these raffles have same odds for everyone because you can't buy multiple tickets for the raffles.
When it comes to things like raffles, lotteries, etc greed comes into play and eventually you will read that one of the conservation groups local or national chapters had some funny business going on with a raffle. Not saying there was anything wrong with either of the 2 events I listed above. Those are just examples of major odds being overcome by luck. You see fraud with churches, government, charities, so why would conservation groups be excluded? Mark my words it will come out whether it happens at a small local turkey banquet or something big like the western hunt expo. When crazy odds get overcome time and again eventually it won't be just luck. It will be tampering.
Given that, why not remove any doubt and have the drawings run by an independent CPA firm?
There’s reality, and perception.
Post by: JoeE on March 16, 2018, 11:17:30 AM
The same person has won a tag from the western hunt expo raffle multiple years in a row.
This year in Washington another person beat the odds and won both sheep hunts.
Both these raffles have same odds for everyone because you can't buy multiple tickets for the raffles.
When it comes to things like raffles, lotteries, etc greed comes into play and eventually you will read that one of the conservation groups local or national chapters had some funny business going on with a raffle. Not saying there was anything wrong with either of the 2 events I listed above. Those are just examples of major odds being overcome by luck. You see fraud with churches, government, charities, so why would conservation groups be excluded? Mark my words it will come out whether it happens at a small local turkey banquet or something big like the western hunt expo. When crazy odds get overcome time and again eventually it won't be just luck. It will be tampering.
Exactly. Fraud, corruption and scams happen everywhere in almost all organizations. To think it can’t happen in a conservation group with that much money on the line is asinine. After looking at the numbers and how completely out of this world unlikely the odds were, coupled with the fact that it was an insider you have to ask yourself, what at is more likely, somebody beat odds that would taken 150,000 attempts to recreate or somebody messed with the draw? I know what the laws of probability suggest.
We will never know the answer but what happened should raise serious questions with anybody who invests in this group.
Post by: trophyhunt on March 16, 2018, 12:09:17 PM
It does sound like they are addressing this issue, I think they want nothing but 100% confidence in the draws and I think we will see a positive change. I know if I won both hunts I'd feel pretty happy giving one of them to my friends, they'd have to draw straws!! Maybe it's as simple as a new rule that you can't win both hunts? Who would have thought you'd need such a rule?The same person has won a tag from the western hunt expo raffle multiple years in a row.
This year in Washington another person beat the odds and won both sheep hunts.
Both these raffles have same odds for everyone because you can't buy multiple tickets for the raffles.
When it comes to things like raffles, lotteries, etc greed comes into play and eventually you will read that one of the conservation groups local or national chapters had some funny business going on with a raffle. Not saying there was anything wrong with either of the 2 events I listed above. Those are just examples of major odds being overcome by luck. You see fraud with churches, government, charities, so why would conservation groups be excluded? Mark my words it will come out whether it happens at a small local turkey banquet or something big like the western hunt expo. When crazy odds get overcome time and again eventually it won't be just luck. It will be tampering.
Exactly. Fraud, corruption and scams happen everywhere in almost all organizations. To think it can’t happen in a conservation group with that much money on the line is asinine. After looking at the numbers and how completely out of this world unlikely the odds were, coupled with the fact that it was an insider you have to ask yourself, what at is more likely, somebody beat odds that would taken 150,000 attempts to recreate or somebody messed with the draw? I know what the laws of probability suggest.
We will never know the answer but what happened should raise serious questions with anybody who invests in this group.
Post by: SilkOnTheDrySide on March 16, 2018, 12:19:33 PM
It does sound like they are addressing this issue, I think they want nothing but 100% confidence in the draws and I think we will see a positive change. I know if I won both hunts I'd feel pretty happy giving one of them to my friends, they'd have to draw straws!! Maybe it's as simple as a new rule that you can't win both hunts? Who would have thought you'd need such a rule?The same person has won a tag from the western hunt expo raffle multiple years in a row.
This year in Washington another person beat the odds and won both sheep hunts.
Both these raffles have same odds for everyone because you can't buy multiple tickets for the raffles.
When it comes to things like raffles, lotteries, etc greed comes into play and eventually you will read that one of the conservation groups local or national chapters had some funny business going on with a raffle. Not saying there was anything wrong with either of the 2 events I listed above. Those are just examples of major odds being overcome by luck. You see fraud with churches, government, charities, so why would conservation groups be excluded? Mark my words it will come out whether it happens at a small local turkey banquet or something big like the western hunt expo. When crazy odds get overcome time and again eventually it won't be just luck. It will be tampering.
Exactly. Fraud, corruption and scams happen everywhere in almost all organizations. To think it can’t happen in a conservation group with that much money on the line is asinine. After looking at the numbers and how completely out of this world unlikely the odds were, coupled with the fact that it was an insider you have to ask yourself, what at is more likely, somebody beat odds that would taken 150,000 attempts to recreate or somebody messed with the draw? I know what the laws of probability suggest.
We will never know the answer but what happened should raise serious questions with anybody who invests in this group.
Occams Razor.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Rainier10 on March 16, 2018, 12:24:33 PM
Had to go to the googler for that one. Occam's Razor or Ockham's razorIt does sound like they are addressing this issue, I think they want nothing but 100% confidence in the draws and I think we will see a positive change. I know if I won both hunts I'd feel pretty happy giving one of them to my friends, they'd have to draw straws!! Maybe it's as simple as a new rule that you can't win both hunts? Who would have thought you'd need such a rule?The same person has won a tag from the western hunt expo raffle multiple years in a row.
This year in Washington another person beat the odds and won both sheep hunts.
Both these raffles have same odds for everyone because you can't buy multiple tickets for the raffles.
When it comes to things like raffles, lotteries, etc greed comes into play and eventually you will read that one of the conservation groups local or national chapters had some funny business going on with a raffle. Not saying there was anything wrong with either of the 2 events I listed above. Those are just examples of major odds being overcome by luck. You see fraud with churches, government, charities, so why would conservation groups be excluded? Mark my words it will come out whether it happens at a small local turkey banquet or something big like the western hunt expo. When crazy odds get overcome time and again eventually it won't be just luck. It will be tampering.
Exactly. Fraud, corruption and scams happen everywhere in almost all organizations. To think it can’t happen in a conservation group with that much money on the line is asinine. After looking at the numbers and how completely out of this world unlikely the odds were, coupled with the fact that it was an insider you have to ask yourself, what at is more likely, somebody beat odds that would taken 150,000 attempts to recreate or somebody messed with the draw? I know what the laws of probability suggest.
We will never know the answer but what happened should raise serious questions with anybody who invests in this group.
Occams Razor.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: coachcw on March 18, 2018, 04:35:47 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on March 18, 2018, 05:44:31 PM
It would be pretty simple. Everyone gets there ticket when they come in the door . Then you just drop your ticket in the hopper right on center stage for all to see . Once a winner is drawn it could be sealed . Then checked by a independent firm for duplicate names . Draw a alternate just in case.:yeah:
Post by: scree on March 18, 2018, 07:35:45 PM
The same person has won a tag from the western hunt expo raffle multiple years in a row.
This year in Washington another person beat the odds and won both sheep hunts.
Both these raffles have same odds for everyone because you can't buy multiple tickets for the raffles.
When it comes to things like raffles, lotteries, etc greed comes into play and eventually you will read that one of the conservation groups local or national chapters had some funny business going on with a raffle. Not saying there was anything wrong with either of the 2 events I listed above. Those are just examples of major odds being overcome by luck. You see fraud with churches, government, charities, so why would conservation groups be excluded? Mark my words it will come out whether it happens at a small local turkey banquet or something big like the western hunt expo. When crazy odds get overcome time and again eventually it won't be just luck. It will be tampering.
Exactly. Fraud, corruption and scams happen everywhere in almost all organizations. To think it can’t happen in a conservation group with that much money on the line is asinine. After looking at the numbers and how completely out of this world unlikely the odds were, coupled with the fact that it was an insider you have to ask yourself, what at is more likely, somebody beat odds that would taken 150,000 attempts to recreate or somebody messed with the draw? I know what the laws of probability suggest.
We will never know the answer but what happened should raise serious questions with anybody who invests in this group.
While I agree that no organization is immune to fraud I can (and have) given my word that there was nothing fraudulent with our drawings.
Joe this is my public invitation to you to volunteer to oversee the 2019 process from empty tumbler to drawing. We will be adjusting how we do business and you certainly will not be alone with the tickets (nor will anyone be). As we have always done, people can watch their tickets go in the tumbler. The first year we allowed people to put their own tickets in but we kept having people manipulate the tickets (fold corners crinkle them etc.) even after being asked not to. This way all every single ticket is un-altered.
Post by: JoeE on March 18, 2018, 07:50:27 PM
Post by: Tbar on March 18, 2018, 08:28:40 PM
Your organization also conducts the raffle for the Rocky mountain bighorn sheep, correct?
Post by: trophyhunt on March 18, 2018, 08:32:05 PM
I’ll do that Andy. I think there should be a few people that oversee the drawing.Only problem I see here is, you should be in the drawing joe. I just don’t think people who are in control of the tumbler or tickets should be in the draw. Just my thoughts. I don’t see where bending tickets is a problem, that happens with every raffle I’ve ever been in. Even in Reno the raffle tickets for the other hunts had a lot folded.
Post by: scree on March 18, 2018, 08:42:57 PM
@Scree
Your organization also conducts the raffle for the Rocky mountain bighorn sheep, correct?
We do, that one is drawn by a WDFW employee and it is usually in the foyer at the natural resource building; although, last year we had to do it in a room down there because the foyer was booked for something else. I think we are going to FB it live it this year.
We have been tapped out with the banquet but the raffle flyer should be out this week. It is written but it is at WDFW for review. Hopefully tomorrow we will have the OK.
Post by: scree on March 18, 2018, 08:43:46 PM
I’ll do that Andy. I think there should be a few people that oversee the drawing.
Thanks Joe :tup:
Post by: Tbar on March 18, 2018, 09:04:20 PM
Why is there no way to find out how many tickets have been sold prior to the drawing?@Scree
Your organization also conducts the raffle for the Rocky mountain bighorn sheep, correct?
We do, that one is drawn by a WDFW employee and it is usually in the foyer at the natural resource building; although, last year we had to do it in a room down there because the foyer was booked for something else. I think we are going to FB it live it this year.
We have been tapped out with the banquet but the raffle flyer should be out this week. It is written but it is at WDFW for review. Hopefully tomorrow we will have the OK.
Post by: scree on March 18, 2018, 09:33:12 PM
Post by: Tbar on March 18, 2018, 10:12:29 PM
Post by: Tbar on March 18, 2018, 10:56:43 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on March 19, 2018, 06:26:46 AM
Also is it a hopper raffle or a automated raffle with a random number assigned to every ticket sold?It's a hopper or tumbler raffle. Only 1 ticket allowed per person that is eligible for the "less than one" draw, then they have another draw for life members, also 1 ticket allowed. You can be in both draws if eligible but only 1 ticket per person, per draw. Tickets go into two different tumblers and it's drawn on stage during the banquet.
Post by: starbailey on March 19, 2018, 09:54:18 AM
First off, I think it's sad to have to defend her having a lucky evening. If the first person was there we wouldn't even be having this conversation! Tammy has ran the membership booth for me (as I'm membership chair) since I took on the task way back in 2005 or 06. We have my daughter and Mandy as long time helpers also. It is a job that gets very little recognition or thanks. But they do it because they know I need the help and they are way more efficient than me in helping members get through quickly. Tammy or Mandy do NOT make up the raffle tickets. We only make new life member tickets that join at the banquet. All those people were dropped into the tumblers right then. All the other life members are on tickets ready to go. I personally pulled an dropped tickets from members that came up and asked to have it done. (As we always have in past years.) Before the draw I dropped all remaining names/tickets in the bin. Did you hear that? ME! I did it just like in all the past years. No one else. Mandy dropped the first time sheep hunter tickets as she wasn't in the draw and I need help. No one did anything different as in past years. After the draw the bins were locked away and the tickets were left in them undisturbed (as always). Since some one winning both hunts was so unusual our WA WSF president, another board member and witness went through the tickets to make sure there weren't any discrepancies in the tickets. This would have been done if anyone person would have won both hunts. There were none found as Andy has stated.
It's sad I have to defend the integrity of my wife, my self and the rest of the WA WSF board. Tammy and I have been involved with WAWSF going on 20 years as volunteers (I being VP for the last 10). We both put in countless hours, as do all the board members, and ask nothing in return. Our business has been the main sponsor of the mount display raffle from its inception and active donors and sponsors in our community. We enjoy helping others. Its who we are as people and business owners.
Now, not many people know but my wife has several health issues that she has battled for years that would make taking one of these hunts virtually impossible. So in keeping with the spirit of these raffles she chose to give each away to a first time sheep hunter. The Alaska hunt will be given to my 18 year old daughter. No, she is not a hunter but she is excited to see and experience what I talk about with so much passion. She'll have to learn to shoot a hunting rifle along with getting her hunter safety card before leaving on her adventure.
The second hunt will be going to one of our friends George V. George got interested in sheep hunting after coming to our house looking at my sheep and hearing my stories. He and his wife have been coming to our banquet for the last four years. Tammy and I see what a good guy George is and know there is not a more deserving person. He's in for a special ride.
I hope this clears some of the air in dealing with a very lucky night for a special lady.
If you want discuss it more. Go ahead.
You'll never change luck, good or bad!
Bryan B
Post by: Falcon on March 19, 2018, 07:36:35 PM
Thanks for taking the time to post this. I am proud to serve on the board and will defend the good people who volunteer countless hours for sheep conservation in our state, and many others including Canada.
Also, great to hear that those hunts will be going to people who are new to sheep hunting. I’ve always believed in our cause and a bit a Lady Luck striking twice in one night will never change what a great organization you and the other board members and volunteers have built thru the years.
Bryan Flintoff
Post by: BKMFR on March 19, 2018, 08:24:29 PM
Steve Stewart
Post by: lhrbull on March 19, 2018, 08:49:03 PM
Mark Ulrich
Post by: elkontherun on March 19, 2018, 11:17:12 PM
Post by: addicted on March 19, 2018, 11:33:17 PM
Someone was passionate enough about something to volunteer their time and money to it and if they were finally able to be lucky enough to win something, which causes you not to attend next year then by all means stay home. These events are for a good cause, not your personal gain. I see that more than ever now that I am putting effort into hosting my own.
I've never researched WA WSF before this thread but I'll be looking into a lifetime membership this year.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 20, 2018, 05:07:45 AM
Post by: JoeE on March 20, 2018, 06:32:32 AM
Post by: JoeE on March 20, 2018, 06:33:20 AM
I think a cloudy night in the middle of the Wilderness is one of the darkest things on this planet. With that being said I think the Russians were involved. :chuckle:
Definitely Russians :chuckle:
Post by: Ghost Hunter on March 20, 2018, 07:30:24 AM
Post by: jackelope on March 20, 2018, 07:44:21 AM
1 in 150,000 odds won by people in control of the tickets. Nothing to see here folks move along.
Pretty sure your opinion has been made plenty clear.
Post by: starbailey on March 20, 2018, 09:10:32 AM
Post by: coachcw on March 20, 2018, 12:30:15 PM
Post by: Whitpirate on March 21, 2018, 04:40:53 AM
1 in 150,000 odds won by people in control of the tickets. Nothing to see here folks move along.
You’ve had all involved personally state their reasoning, the facts of the audit don’t lie, either you just love to troll or put your money where your mouth is and quit WSF and turn in your membership or volunteer a solution and personally work next years auction to improve it. Hunts are going to 1st timers and to continue your tirade is silly.
If you don’t stop please don’t come to the banquet because I won’t regret pointing you out as the tool that can’t prove it so I’ll repeat it until someone thinks it’s true.
Bryan, Tammy, and and the rest I am sorry a great night and lucky event have caused you hardship and I hope this won’t diminish your desire to help the organization. I look forward to getting more involved and look forward to this event and all the amazing investments in conservation it does.
Chris Martin
Life Member, WAWSF
Post by: JoeE on March 21, 2018, 06:01:02 AM
1 in 150,000 odds won by people in control of the tickets. Nothing to see here folks move along.
You’ve had all involved personally state their reasoning, the facts of the audit don’t lie, either you just love to troll or put your money where your mouth is and quit WSF and turn in your membership or volunteer a solution and personally work next years auction to improve it. Hunts are going to 1st timers and to continue your tirade is silly.
If you don’t stop please don’t come to the banquet because I won’t regret pointing you out as the tool that can’t prove it so I’ll repeat it until someone thinks it’s true.
Bryan, Tammy, and and the rest I am sorry a great night and lucky event have caused you hardship and I hope this won’t diminish your desire to help the organization. I look forward to getting more involved and look forward to this event and all the amazing investments in conservation it does.
Chris Martin
Life Member, WAWSF
Chris, I have suggested solutions and have spoke with a board member about this off the forum to suggest how to correct the problem. I also agreed to take part in the helping with the drawing next year.
I think it’s funny that because I point out something that is terribly suspicious I get called a troll. Just because somebody defends what happened I am not going to automatically accept that as facts and truth. How come you didn’t call me a troll last year when I spent a half hour talking to you about the in and outs of setting up a DIY moose hunt in Alaska and then gave you my contact and offered to walk you through the process. Because I called out the process this year now I’m a troll and a tool?
Post by: trophyhunt on March 21, 2018, 06:19:08 AM
Post by: Whitpirate on March 21, 2018, 08:35:20 PM
1 in 150,000 odds won by people in control of the tickets. Nothing to see here folks move along.
You’ve had all involved personally state their reasoning, the facts of the audit don’t lie, either you just love to troll or put your money where your mouth is and quit WSF and turn in your membership or volunteer a solution and personally work next years auction to improve it. Hunts are going to 1st timers and to continue your tirade is silly.
If you don’t stop please don’t come to the banquet because I won’t regret pointing you out as the tool that can’t prove it so I’ll repeat it until someone thinks it’s true.
Bryan, Tammy, and and the rest I am sorry a great night and lucky event have caused you hardship and I hope this won’t diminish your desire to help the organization. I look forward to getting more involved and look forward to this event and all the amazing investments in conservation it does.
Chris Martin
Life Member, WAWSF
Chris, I have suggested solutions and have spoke with a board member about this off the forum to suggest how to correct the problem. I also agreed to take part in the helping with the drawing next year.
I think it’s funny that because I point out something that is terribly suspicious I get called a troll. Just because somebody defends what happened I am not going to automatically accept that as facts and truth. How come you didn’t call me a troll last year when I spent a half hour talking to you about the in and outs of setting up a DIY moose hunt in Alaska and then gave you my contact and offered to walk you through the process. Because I called out the process this year now I’m a troll and a tool?
I'm a simple man. I ask direct questions and expect direct answers. I appreciate that Andy and Bryan and other board members have come forward and offered what explanation they can for the evening's finish. That you've reached out to offer solutions is great... I haven't seen that in the thread. I'll be the first to say I'm wrong and that your not a troll or a tool (though in my defense I said if you kept up a "it's fixed tirade" I'd do that... so actually hadn't reached tool calling status yet and I'll shake your hand and offer to buy you your first round next year at the banquet. Its a fickle thing to dance with odds and while they are long there aren't 1 in 150,000 it is easy to figure out.
The first drawing was 1/130? For first timer life members that haven't hunted a sheep (I don't know the actual number.) but that doesn't really get to the conspiracy spot so let's focus on the 2nd drawing.
I'd say there was approximately 320 life members there? so the odds of drawing would be 1/320 = 0.003125
the probability of winning the lottery = the number of winning tickets/the total number of possible tickets.
The fact that the second drawing had a life member drawn that wasn't present actually makes the odds marginally better..... 2/319 = 0.006269592476489 as her name was present for both drawings and the second time there was one less ticket in there. No where does this come close to 1 in 150,000.
I did and continue to appreciate your knowledge of moose, the information you shared and at no time did I make any judgements on your service/veteran status etc...
Again, I'll be the first to thank you for offering solutions that you find would make this more transparent to the board and will offer to help in anyway I can. I'll shake your hand and buy you a drink at next year's banquet if you'll let me and if not know that I don't hold malice but I also don't believe in any fashion that this was rigged.
I'll look forward to seeing the hunts outcome and will cheer both 1st time hunters as they seek out the target that many of us will only dream about hunting.
That said with 1 less than max moose points and never drawing while helping folks with less than 5 points draw here in WA I'll be the first to offer conspiracy theories!
All the best to you Joe and let me know if I can help.
Post by: trophyhunt on March 21, 2018, 08:40:03 PM
Post by: cem3434 on March 21, 2018, 09:58:21 PM
Bryan , thank you to you and your family for all the hard work put in over the years . Be assured that many people including my self never once thought of any corruption by Tammy . I hope your daughter enjoys every minute of her hunt . Corey
:yeah:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 22, 2018, 05:11:12 AM
Post by: lokidog on March 22, 2018, 09:41:08 AM
Its a fickle thing to dance with odds and while they are long there aren't 1 in 150,000 it is easy to figure out.
The first drawing was 1/130? For first timer life members that haven't hunted a sheep (I don't know the actual number.) but that doesn't really get to the conspiracy spot so let's focus on the 2nd drawing.
I'd say there was approximately 320 life members there? so the odds of drawing would be 1/320 = 0.003125
the probability of winning the lottery = the number of winning tickets/the total number of possible tickets.
The fact that the second drawing had a life member drawn that wasn't present actually makes the odds marginally better..... 2/319 = 0.006269592476489 as her name was present for both drawings and the second time there was one less ticket in there. No where does this come close to 1 in 150,000.
You are correct in the odds, to a point.... If the first drawing had 130 tickets, a ticket holder would have a 0.7% chance of drawing. Taken separately, the second drawing would have a 1/319 chance of drawing, or 0.3% chance of drawing. I am unsure of where the "2" comes from as there was ultimately only one ticket drawn for the win.
Now, for the statistically unsure, when you say "or" as in you have a chance to win this one OR that one, the chances are added to each other, 0.7 + 0.3 = 1.0% chance of drawing one OR the other. When you say "and" as in your chances of winning this one AND that one, your chances are multiplied by each other 0.7 X 0.3 = 0.0021% chance of drawing both of them. So to draw both of them you have a 1/41470 chance of drawing both.
Just so everyone knows, I have no skin in this game, congratulations to the lucky winner. My dad wins at least one gun in almost every other banquet he goes to, some people get lucky. If I was not eventually going to get some/most of them and was always at the table next to him, I might be a little jealous and wonder how he did it as well..... :rolleyes: :chuckle:
Post by: JoeE on March 22, 2018, 10:07:23 AM
Thanks for the comment Chris, I look forward to chatting with you guys every year there.
Post by: elkchaser54 on March 22, 2018, 10:24:12 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 22, 2018, 12:14:54 PM
Post by: elkchaser54 on March 22, 2018, 12:19:07 PM
Post by: JoeE on March 22, 2018, 12:31:47 PM
Greed of wanting that hunt and assuming because you didn't win; it must be rigged
Again..I’m pretty sure that the reasons for thinking it was more than just luck have been pointed out more than once. The issues raised with the integrity of the draw and how it went down is the issue.