Hunting Washington Forum

Equipment & Gear => Guns and Ammo => Topic started by: Coasthunterjay on March 09, 2009, 06:09:29 PM

Title: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: Coasthunterjay on March 09, 2009, 06:09:29 PM: What bullet out past 500+ yrds would have the best speed and hit the hardest and still be VERY ACCURATE on Big game? Either a 180 or 200 Grain bullet.......Just bullets not calibers......if you need a cal, lets say 300 Win mag. But thats not important.

Accubond? Barnes(if barnes what type)? Scciroco? Tipped or non tipped? Lead or copper styles?

Any recommendations....? Would like to know what you think!
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: Bofire on March 09, 2009, 06:14:04 PM: At long range Ballistic Coff. rules, heavy bullets. go look at loads 1000 yard shooters use. 600 yard shooters, all use bullets heavy for the caliber.
Carl
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: MasterMisser on March 09, 2009, 06:27:21 PM: i would agree with bofire. the heavier the bullet the more energy its going to have when it makes contact with the target. but there are alot of different factors that come into account when your looking for the best overall performance out of a bullet. i would recommend buying a ballistic program. there are alot out there let me know if you need any recommendations.
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: FALFire on March 09, 2009, 06:37:24 PM: MasterMisser is correct here, you have asked a question that is too broad and could invite answers that don't apply to your specific needs. Be more specific and maybe you will get some usefull info. IE: I shoot a 300 Win Mag and I want to shoot X brand bullet beyond 500 yards on moose, will this X bullet be reliable at that distance? Or what kind of bullet, velocities and pound feet of energy do I need to take a 900 pound Bull Moose at 500 yards. Otherwise, it's a guessing game that may or may not yield good results.
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: MasterMisser on March 09, 2009, 07:06:55 PM: on another note... dont be specific about the type of bulllet you decide to try. every gun shoots the same ammo differently. if we both had identical guns. your gun might like the nosler 180 grn accubond and mine might prefer the 200 grn sierra matchking. i would recommend trying multiple brands of ammo with all different types of bullets until you find a bullet that gives you the desired groups. then practice shooting it at different yardages to see how accurate it is at extended ranges. once again I'm gonna suggest getting a ballistic calculator. this is a very good tool to have and anyone shooting beyond 600yards should use one. besides they are cheep...
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: Coasthunterjay on March 09, 2009, 08:07:05 PM: All i want to know is if i want to shoot an animal at a billion yards(not that i am going to because im not, but for paper reasons for now.....) what round would be the best in all (X) factors....

Im not an idiot i just have never used anything but nosler ballistic tips and nosler accubonds(last year only), so i just dont know........

But i have been pushed to using barnes TSX and was interested because of the cool ballistic mold youtube that they have and well basically i have also heard that out past 500 yards that most copper bullets like the nosler E and the Barnes that they tumbe and have sometime had ballistic performance problems at long ranges...

So maybe a Tipped XXX might be a good candidate? And accubond?

And what is the benefit of shooting a 200 grain bullet over a 180?
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: Little John on March 09, 2009, 08:37:21 PM: GET FREEEEKEN CLOSER!!!! Maybe the wind will blow and you shoot his horn off :bash: :bash: Or gut shoot it >:(
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: littlebuf on March 09, 2009, 09:57:35 PM: id go with the barnes, i think there called MXR's but im not sure. if you look them up there the one with a tungston core and they were made to be lethal on big game at long distance.
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: demontang on March 09, 2009, 10:14:20 PM: I have been shooting the accubonds and they seem hard to beat, They have a great BC and seem to hold to gather very well. I havent tried the barns yet but have hear good things, I would look at the different BC of the bullets and see which one you gun likes. I can hold a .5" group with the 225 (.338cal) accubounds but the other bullets I have shot I cant seem to keep the groups that small. If you plan on shooting at an animal I would make sure you know you weapon and how to read the wind. :twocents:
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: JoshT on March 10, 2009, 09:02:00 AM: The biggest factor here... since this is a totaly arbitrary question with waaaaaay too many variables... is impact velocity. Impact velocity will dictate how the bullet acts when it arrives on target.... initial velocity and BC will dictate what that velocity is... and at what range the velocity has dropped below what is required for the bullet to expand. Depending on the bullet... that could be anywhere from 1400fps to 2000fps... but no too many bullets that will hold up to the rigors of a .300 mag... will expand very well below about 1400fps.

If you want a real answer... lets talk about a real cartridge. I know that the 200 AB, the 208 Amax, and the 210 Berger all work well out past 500 yards in the .300 RUM... because I've either shot them into critters myself... or seen the damage done by other guys who've done the shooting. But... it seems to me that we need to get a lot more specific... before we can even begin to have a valid answer to this question.
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: TheHunt on March 10, 2009, 11:44:23 AM: I would have to agree that a heaver bullet is the ticket. The heaver bullet will provide you more down range energy. Lets say you are going to shoot at a 450 lb black bear at 600 yards. The energy to kill the bear is what you need to look at.

I saw a video of someone shooting a 300 grain MatchKing at some long distance (900 yards) and taking out a deer. The wound showed the energy the 300 grain bullet provided at that distance. So you need to find out what provides the required energy to your required distance and game you want to kill.

Good post by the way...

I am doing the same with my 338. (Here are the bullets I am testing: Nosler Accubond 250 grains, Barnes 250 grain MRX Boat Tail , Sierra 250 grain MatchKings)
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: Intruder on March 10, 2009, 12:42:57 PM: In general I agree.... long range bullets are gonna be on the heavy side for the particular gun/cal. However, ya can't just say it's all about weight or BC. Spreed is really important too. There's a balance between speed/weight/BC that has to be achieved for your particular gun. Additionally, IMO bullet construction is a big factor when you take long range shooting and translate it to long range hunting shots.
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: Gutpile on March 10, 2009, 01:23:31 PM: Swift scirroco would be a great choice. 180 grain. Look for the highest B.C. ; Berger VLD's, Swift Scirroco, Hornady interbond, Barnes T TSX, Nosler Accubond. Any of those in 180 grain. Before I get slammed, I'm not condoning shooting at extreme ranges but if I were to shoot that far those are the bullets I'd look at and I'd just load up the ones that gave the best accuracy.

Those Barnes T TSX give great accuracy for me as do the scirroco's and interbonds.

I'm not 100% sure but I think scirroco and berger have the highest B.C. although any of these bullets are very high.

All of these bullets are made to hold weight and penetrate. Penetration is good! :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: thinkingman on March 10, 2009, 01:40:42 PM: My suggestion would be an all-copper constucted bullet like Barnes TSX in 180 or 200gr.
First, all copper will be long for its' weight....and longer bullets usually have better ballistics.
Second, the Barnes all copper bullets have less variance to effect accuracy at that range.
That said, make sure you have a high twist rate for stabilization at that weight(length, actually) and have a lot of practice before you start shooting at things that bleed.
Second for Berger VLD, and Swift Scirocco.

Personally, I think it's a bad practice to shoot animals at that range, but you didn't ask that question.
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: JoshT on March 10, 2009, 01:53:30 PM: Quote from: thinkingman on March 10, 2009, 01:40:42 PM
First, all copper will be long for its' weight....and longer bullets usually have better ballistics.
Length is good... but shape is much more important. And, the BC that Barnes lists for their bullets is rather optimistic in my experience.

Quote from: thinkingman on March 10, 2009, 01:40:42 PM
Second, the Barnes all copper bullets have less variance to effect accuracy at that range.
What?
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: Coasthunterjay on March 10, 2009, 02:11:18 PM: Maybe i should just stick with a 180 accubond? or 200accubond?

what is the difference?
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: JoshT on March 10, 2009, 02:26:22 PM: Can't go wrong with the 200 Accubond...

Out of my rifle the BC for the 200 AB worked out to be about .500... which is a far cry from the .560 they list in the manual... but pretty decent for a "hunting" bullet. I just can't give up the .640 BC of the 210 Berger (or 208 Amax)... even though my rifle shot the ABs pretty well out to 7-800 yards. Like I said in my PM... it's the wind that will eat your lunch... that's where the extra .140 in BC really makes the difference.
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: Jamieb on March 10, 2009, 06:29:01 PM: Josh
What do you think of the 210 bergers? Do you like them better then the A-max's?
I havent seen a 210 Berger but its got to be long. Are you loading them to the mag well or single feeding them?
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: Curly on March 10, 2009, 06:40:15 PM: I wouldn't go w/ Barnes for the really, really, really long shots that you are talking about. Their BC's are not all that good and they don't open up very well at lower velocities.

If you are stictly going to be shooting at very long ranges, then the bullet needs to open up easy. That said, the accubond would be a good choice if you think you might take a "close" shot........and it has a relatively high BC for those extremely long shots too.

I shoot Barnes TSX bullets, but I won't shoot past 500 yards with it. I use them so that the bullet doesn't blow up if I need to shoot something less than 150 yards where other bullets may blow up.
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: bobcat on March 10, 2009, 07:07:39 PM: If you're only shooting at long range (past 300 yards) I'd go with Ballistic Tips. Accurate and they open up easily which is what you need when you're talking about shooting at long range.
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: Huntbear on March 10, 2009, 07:16:16 PM: For long range bullets, you should definitely look at Berger Bullets and work up your handloads. I would not trust factory ammo past 4-500 yards, imho. There is a reason long distance shooters load their own, sometimes right at the bench.
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: Red Dawg on March 10, 2009, 07:18:15 PM: I get much better performance with 200 grain accubonds out my rum. I get much tighter groups.
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: JoshT on March 10, 2009, 07:55:44 PM: Quote from: Jamieb on March 10, 2009, 06:29:01 PM
Josh
What do you think of the 210 bergers? Do you like them better then the A-max's?
I havent seen a 210 Berger but its got to be long. Are you loading them to the mag well or single feeding them?

You've seen them... that's what I was shooting when I was down there shooting with you guys in July. I modified the mag box... so I can run one in the chamber and one in the mag. If I need more than two rounds of .300 RUM... I need to quit shooting. I believe I shot some of the A-Maxs when I was there too... but I only had a few of them. To be honest... I'd shoot either one... I didn't see any difference in trajectory between the two... my gun prefers the Berger, so that's what I shoot. My buddy got the exact same rifle, and his likes the Amax better... same load... pretty much same velocity. You know how it is... feed'em what they like. In fact... if I remember right, I even shot a couple of your 200 grain AB loads out of my rifle. It was at that basketball sized rock about 800 yards across the canyon... they shot pretty good, but about 18" lower than the Berger and about a foot more wind ( I was using the dope for the Berger).

We did recover a 208 Amax that killed a black bear at somewhere around 525-550 yards... it only retained about 45%... but she went down hard, and the inside of the bear looked like 10 gallons of raspberry jam! Bullet was recovered under the off side hide. An Accubond would have exited... no doubt... but I bet the bear would have gone a ways before it went down. For my money it acted about like a ballistic tip, some folks don't like that... I've killed enough stuff with NBTs that I'm ok with it. I'd expect about the same thing out of the Berger.

All that being said: I think the 200 AB is probably the best all-around bullet for the big .300's, especially if you're talking shots anywhere from the muzzle to 600+. I agree that the Barnes is probably not the best choice... but they have proven to be solid killers, even way out there.

Here's a pic of the recovered 208 Amax... the bear went about 10 feet.

(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi352.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr325%2Fdogdownproductions%2Famax1.jpg&hash=87836a84eff61b1ccb50ef64681b101f11be29d4)
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: JoshT on March 10, 2009, 07:59:25 PM: By the way Jamie... if you want a few of the 210s and a few of the 208s, I'll drop some in the mail for you... I have a bunch of both lying around. Hell, I have some of the 240 Sierra Match King "footballs" if you want some of those too... even with a break those will rattle your teeth, and they hit like a ton of bricks on the steel.
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: Jamieb on March 10, 2009, 10:03:01 PM: Josh. You gave my some of the 208's last summer. They shot great but I loaded them to kiss the lands and that's way too long for my mag. I'm happy with the 200gr. Accubond load in my 300 RUM. I'm pretty much done experimenting with loads in that rifle, I still shoot it a lot but no more load development, just bust rocks and hunt.
Works kept me so busy this winter that I haven't gotten out nearly enough. When I've had the free time and the weather hasnt sucked. I've been carrying the 22-250 and calling yotes.
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: Intruder on March 11, 2009, 08:37:44 AM: Quote from: JoshT on March 10, 2009, 01:53:30 PM
Length is good... but shape is much more important. And, the BC that Barnes lists for their bullets is rather optimistic in my experience.

Barnes got beat up a few years ago about their BCs. As such they went out and had an independent lab do their BC calculations at range (300 yards I think). As such, they are some of the most accurate published. I'd be a lot more skeptical of some of the other bullets out there in terms of their published BCs. Many companies use overly optimistic Drag constants when they formulate their published BCs. Seirra is pretty true from what I hear.

TSX is a heck of a choice if they shoot well in your gun. Great terminal effects. My buddy used to shoot 220 Match Kings out of his 30-378. They worked great. When he talked to Seirra they informed him that the 220 actually has a much heavier jacket than other MK bullets so it has some real good structual integrity.

I'd be really leery of shooting too slow a gun if you're really gonna focus on shots out past 500 yards. You really run the risk of poor penetration and or bullet performance which you cannot solve by simply shooting a lighter jacketed/faster expandig bullet. You hit a 800 lb bull in the shoulder at that range with a crappy bullet and you're likely to have a long track on your hands.
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: Wenatcheejay on March 11, 2009, 09:01:56 AM: Well, find a place where you can practice at the distance that you want to hunt at. You can use minutes of angle on a 100 yd range for an idea of what should happen. I would find the heaviest bullet you can shoot in your chosen rifle and see how it shoots. I like the .338 300 gr Serria Matchking. I have also used the Remington Core Lock in 6.5 x 284 out to 600 yds and the Lapua Senar 139 gr in 6.5 x 284. The Serria GameKing is OK in .308. (all for accuracy on paper)

I have only used the .338 Matchking in a long range situation on game. I have seen it used out to 1000 yds with a clean kill. That is to far for me but I have seen it and it can be done in the right hands with the right configuration.

I also used a Hornaday Maglite load in .308 on game at about 400 yds (that is a factory load) but it did well.
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: JoshT on March 11, 2009, 09:04:13 AM: Quote from: Intruder on March 11, 2009, 08:37:44 AM
Barnes got beat up a few years ago about their BCs. As such they went out and had an independent lab do their BC calculations at range (300 yards I think). As such, they are some of the most accurate published. I'd be a lot more skeptical of some of the other bullets out there in terms of their published BCs. Many companies use overly optimistic Drag constants when they formulate their published BCs. Seirra is pretty true from what I hear.

I know the ones I've shot were no where near what they had published... that includes the 6mm/85, 25/100&115, 7mm/120&140, and the .30/165&180... that seems like a pretty decent sample to me. All of them seemed to be about .050 below what was listed... some were worse than that. The 180's I shot out of my .300 RUM were terrible... they shot great at 100 and 200, but then went all to hell when ranges were stretched out to 500-700. I don't know what was happening... but because of the vertical stringing, I would suspect a large variance in the BC bullet-to-bullet. I know there are a lot of factors that effect what the actuall BC is... I just know the Barnes is not my choice for LR work. If I needed to clobber somthing that could stomp me into a fine paste... I'd reach for the TSX though!

I'm with you on the velocity, it's especially important when you're shooting a stout bullet like the Barnes or AB. That's where the big .300s really shine... you can launch a pretty sizeable pill(180-210 grains), and still keep the velocity up above 3k. I know my Bergers are still supersonic well past 1000 yards... that means I have enough velocity to make the bullet work, and I know the only critter that'd take fire at that range is a coyote.
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: Intruder on March 11, 2009, 10:47:16 AM: Quote from: JoshT on March 11, 2009, 09:04:13 AM
I know the ones I've shot were no where near what they had published... that includes the 6mm/85, 25/100&115, 7mm/120&140, and the .30/165&180... that seems like a pretty decent sample to me. All of them seemed to be about .050 below what was listed... some were worse than that.

Interesting.... may be worth getting a couple cronos and doing some independent validation. Were you using recently published BCs or say stuff from 05 or before? I'd call em and talk to em... they're very up front with their data.

I've always thought BCs were way over stated from a practical standpoint because they are often based on an unfired bullet shape and the aforementioned tampering/optimistic Drag Constants in the formulas. Seems that once the bullet leaves the barrel the rifling marks have already degraded the BC from what is published :dunno:. Velocity supposedly changes it to, though I don't claim to understand why. Using 2 cronos is supposedly the best for truly determining BC.

Very funny thing... BC is :P
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: Coasthunterjay on March 11, 2009, 10:55:50 AM: So what bullet should i go with? accubond, barnes MRX, or a regular Ballistic tip.......

HOW MUCH IS A CHRONO?
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: whacker1 on March 11, 2009, 11:06:43 AM: You can buy a chrono in the $100 - $200 range. I am trying four bullets in my .300 RUM 165 accubond, 180 accubond, 180 combined technology silver tip and 168 Berger VLD. These were all recommendations from other folks that posted on this site and other site, and a few friends in the mix. Retumbo and H1000 are the powders I plan to try as recommended. And seeting depth to be determined based on keeping the bullett just off of the lans.

However, as i have said in the past - I am still waiting on the Nosler Brass I ordered from Cabelas over 60 days ago. This push on the firearm industry is frustrating.
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: Intruder on March 11, 2009, 11:11:55 AM: I'll be interested to hear how Rutumbo shoots for ya. The 2 guys I know that have tried it haven't been happy with it. Believe they've gone back to RL 25. Not sure what the issues were... maybe velocity not what they expected :dunno:
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: Curly on March 11, 2009, 11:17:28 AM: I believe the grooves in the TSX cause problems with drag at lower velocities at extreme long ranges. I believe the coated blue Barnes bullets were better for consistency at long range.
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: whacker1 on March 11, 2009, 11:24:49 AM: I was being told by most that H1000 was the powder, and then I talked to a few friends that went from H 1000 to Retumbo, because they got more velocity and better accuracy. I have heard several also talk about RL 25, but i figured I would start with H1000 and find out if it works. If it doesn't then move to the next and so on.
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: JoshT on March 11, 2009, 11:48:16 AM: I've shot RE-22, RE-25, H1000, Ramshot Magnum, US869, IMR7828, and Retumbo out of my .300 RUM. Retumbo is by far the best powder for bullets in the 180-210 grain range... best velocities, no pressure issues, and seems pretty temp. stable. I shot US869 with the 240s... and they shot pretty good, I could get 3000fps out of my 26" barrel... but the recoil is pretty stiff.

I like the 165s and the 180s... but the .300 RUM really seems to come into its own with bullets in the 200-220 range.

whacker1... I'd be a little carefull with the 168 Berger inside 200 yards or so, you run into a shoulder and it could get ugly. The other bullets you mentioned should work well regardless of the range. H1000 should work well with the 165s, but you'll be running about 102-105 grains of Retumbo with a 165... and if you load them to fit the mag that will be a very compressed load. Even the 180s are a little compressed with Retumbo... I think I was running 97-100 grains and I could hear the powder crunch a little when I seated the bullets.
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: whacker1 on March 11, 2009, 07:17:44 PM: You don't hear this very often "I heard the powder crunch a little when seating the bullets". I like what I hear. I am sure that I will let everyone know how it works out, because I have been researching this issue for over 5 years without buying the gun, so you can say I am a little excited.

Thanks for the input. Sounds like you have tried a lot of combinations.
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: MasterMisser on March 12, 2009, 03:36:28 PM: Quote from: Coasthunterjay on March 11, 2009, 10:55:50 AM
So what bullet should i go with? accubond, barnes MRX, or a regular Ballistic tip.......

HOW MUCH IS A CHRONO?
you need to choose the bullet that your gun likes the most. if you put a good shot on whatever your trying to kill, any of the bullets mentioned in this thread will kill *censored*! it all comes down to your shot placement. but i would try to get the bullet with the best bc. its gonna help with speed and bullet drop as well as wind drift. heck... try all at the range and see what works the best
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: bow-n-head on March 12, 2009, 06:57:01 PM: Quote from: bobcat on March 10, 2009, 07:07:39 PM
If you're only shooting at long range (past 300 yards) I'd go with Ballistic Tips. Accurate and they open up easily which is what you need when you're talking about shooting at long range.
I agree 100% I have shot both deer and elk at extended ranges and have friends that have shot further. We all use 180 gr. balistic tips with excelent results.
Title: Re: Long range loads and penetration.
Post by: Coasthunterjay on March 13, 2009, 12:30:45 PM: alright sounds good...well see what comes up when i get some loads going...