Post by: elkcamp64 on March 19, 2018, 01:52:53 PM
The ultimate goal, like a family, is to not let our differences separate us and give the ultra-liberals the victory they so badly want.
This said, I agree with the limiting of cow elk harvesting in the 300 series GMU’s. My rationale has everything to with fair opportunity for each of the three hunting groups (bow, modern, muzzy). To cut straight to the chase, I have over 25 years of hunting the 328 and 329. As an elk camp with members with over 40 years at our site, few on this forum have more firsthand experience of the ‘Colockum’ changes than us. My point in saying this is not to brag, but perhaps give credibility to my premise. Collectively, we have several hundred years of 328, 329 history. We’ve seen it all up there, and no single change has been more significant to the muzzy and modern hunters than the implementation of open cow to bow hunters. The impact on the heard, post the archery season, is undisputable. By the end of archery, the elk have made a mass exodus to the reserve and stay there through the remaining seasons. Does this resultant equate to parity and fairness to the remaining groups? NO.
This change is four years over due.
We can all have our own opinions, but not our own facts. And to the elimination of all cow harvesting for a period of time: I’d support that type of move with the exception of those over an agreed upon elderly age and the disabled.
To close, those who claim they will stop hunting as a result of this potential change, I’d suggest you reflect how important this privilege is to you. We were once a camp that solely hunted modern. It killed us as at first to change our hunting identity but the Colockum devolved so we had to evolve. I hope you can do the same, we are all an important part of maintaining this areas carrying heard health.
I wish all health and hunting success.
Post by: elkcamp64 on March 19, 2018, 02:06:28 PM
The ultimate goal, like a family, is to not let our differences separate us and give the ultra-liberals the victory they so badly want.
This said, I agree with the limiting of cow elk harvesting in the 300 series GMU’s. My rationale has everything to with fair opportunity for each of the three hunting groups (bow, modern, muzzy). To cut straight to the chase, I have over 25 years of hunting the 328 and 329. As an elk camp with members with over 40 years at our site, few on this forum have more firsthand experience of the ‘Colockum’ changes than us. My point in saying this is not to brag, but perhaps give credibility to my premise. Collectively, we have several hundred years of 328, 329 history. We’ve seen it all up there, and no single change has been more significant to the muzzy and modern hunters than the implementation of open cow to bow hunters. The impact on the heard, post the archery season, is undisputable. By the end of archery, the elk have made a mass exodus to the reserve and stay there through the remaining seasons. Does this resultant equate to parity and fairness to the remaining groups? NO.
This change is four years over due.
We can all have our own opinions, but not our own facts. And to the elimination of all cow harvesting for a period of time: I’d support that type of move with the exception of those over an agreed upon elderly age and the disabled.
To close, those who claim they will stop hunting as a result of this potential change, I’d suggest you reflect how important this privilege is to you. We were once a camp that solely hunted modern. It killed us as at first to change our hunting identity but the Colockum devolved so we had to evolve. I hope you can do the same, we are all an important part of maintaining this areas carrying heard health.
I wish all health and hunting success.
Post by: JKEEN33 on March 19, 2018, 02:08:55 PM
Sounds to me like that would solve the problem.
Post by: jstone on March 19, 2018, 02:42:38 PM
Post by: Mfowl on March 19, 2018, 02:52:43 PM
As an archery hunter, I say close down muzzy and modern seasons completely. More animals will survive and I won’t have to hear the sniveling about how archery ran all the animals off. My camp has yours beat on years of experience so our conclusions, I guess, would override yours.
Sounds to me like that would solve the problem.
Wow...holier than thow much?...
Post by: JKEEN33 on March 19, 2018, 02:57:52 PM
As an archery hunter, I say close down muzzy and modern seasons completely. More animals will survive and I won’t have to hear the sniveling about how archery ran all the animals off. My camp has yours beat on years of experience so our conclusions, I guess, would override yours.
Sounds to me like that would solve the problem.
It’s calked sarcasm. Did you read the original post? His 20 years of experience qualifies him to decide archers should lose access? Deen the rest of the post out here about archers ruining the opportunity for other seasons? Kind of a joke, but to be expected here. SOS different day.
Wow...holier than thow much?...
Post by: bobcat on March 19, 2018, 03:04:26 PM
Post by: elkcamp64 on March 19, 2018, 08:41:30 PM
The ultimate goal, like a family, is to not let our differences separate us and give the ultra-liberals the victory they so badly want.
This said, I agree with the limiting of cow elk harvesting in the 300 series GMU’s. My rationale has everything to with fair opportunity for each of the three hunting groups (bow, modern, muzzy). To cut straight to the chase, I have over 25 years of hunting the 328 and 329. As an elk camp with members with over 40 years at our site, few on this forum have more firsthand experience of the ‘Colockum’ changes than us. My point in saying this is not to brag, but perhaps give credibility to my premise. Collectively, we have several hundred years of 328, 329 history. We’ve seen it all up there, and no single change has been more significant to the muzzy and modern hunters than the implementation of open cow to bow hunters. The impact on the heard, post the archery season, is undisputable. By the end of archery, the elk have made a mass exodus to the reserve and stay there through the remaining seasons. Does this resultant equate to parity and fairness to the remaining groups? NO.
This change is four years over due.
We can all have our own opinions, but not our own facts. And to the elimination of all cow harvesting for a period of time: I’d support that type of move with the exception of those over an agreed upon elderly age and the disabled.
To close, those who claim they will stop hunting as a result of this potential change, I’d suggest you reflect how important this privilege is to you. We were once a camp that solely hunted modern. It killed us as at first to change our hunting identity but the Colockum devolved so we had to evolve. I hope you can do the same, we are all an important part of maintaining this areas carrying heard health.
I wish all health and hunting success.
Post by: 92xj on March 19, 2018, 08:48:39 PM
Post by: elkcamp64 on March 19, 2018, 09:13:51 PM
Present facts to my posting please. Nebulas victimization of yourself is all that is needed to disregard your arguments by any true intended contributor here.
No one believes in the first amendment more than myself, so have at your follies. But do so at the expense of revealing your true intellectual depth and understanding of game management and fair hunting opportunity.
I insulted no one in my original posting, and only a weak mind coupled with an insecure personal constitution would play the word games against me. It is truly a shame that the tattered threads of this states hunting family are more likely to be eventually torn from within, than from otherwise.
I wish you well
Post by: lord grizzly on March 19, 2018, 09:17:07 PM
Post by: elkcamp64 on March 19, 2018, 09:57:54 PM
Posting my opinion in multiple locations is metaphorically likened to casting a wider net. The subject matter therein is multidimensional and touches on several hunting parameters and thus, a single address is unrealistic to making a point, and reaching such a broad forum.
This said, should the above need to be pointed out to you, responding to the unsophisticated and sophomoric retort “doesn’t make your personal opinion mean anymore” would be a mere waste of time.
I wish you well
Post by: dscubame on March 19, 2018, 10:00:06 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 19, 2018, 11:36:42 PM
User group against user group is always a fail!
Post by: W_Ellison2011 on March 20, 2018, 05:51:47 PM
Post by: h20hunter on March 20, 2018, 06:12:33 PM
Post by: vandeman17 on March 20, 2018, 06:37:30 PM
User group against user group is always a fail!
Vast majority of people upset about this are not mad at the hunters of other weapon choices but the decision made by wdfw so let's not get those lines blurred. :twocents:
Post by: elkcamp64 on March 20, 2018, 09:31:53 PM
vidimus vicimus. And now your turn. Look up my old blogs for the history of this awesome opportunity. Now where's the fruit of your efforts outside of being a typist who’s greatest hunting feat is to denigrate hunters you have no history of.
To show this is not to brag but rather inform you of your ignorance relative to anything having to do with me, and my greatest passion outside of family.
Post by: W_Ellison2011 on March 20, 2018, 10:51:07 PM
In response to W_Ellisonremark and the remark, "Dude can't find elk and thus blames the archery hunters for shooting legal animals... that's what I'm getting from this post..."So yes... that is you bragging btw. It also is you showing that your statements are false... "By the end of archery, the elk have made a mass exodus to the reserve and stay there through the remaining seasons." IF that is actually your bull, which I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that it is, then congrats. I will also say bravo on showing that the elk in that area do NOT in fact make a mass exodus to the reserve. Matter of fact... your reply to me shows that the elk are very much still in the area. My point is this. We shouldn't be squabbling over taking "privileges" from one group and making off the wall claims. You don't want the *censored*s to win... well by making all these posts you are almost forcing a line to be drawn between the archery hunters and the rest. They aren't just taking the ability to shoot cows with an OTC tag away from archery, they aren't even giving them an option for a draw tag at this point! How is that fair? It's not. Is it fair that archery alone has OTC cow tags? NO! I agree with you there. We should be pushing for a draw tag for cow elk in those units for the archery hunters. Otherwise as stated in another post... the displaced hunters from those units will go to other units with antlerless hunting and then it will start there too!
vidimus vicimus. And now your turn. Look up my old blogs for the history of this awesome opportunity. Now where's the fruit of your efforts outside of being a typist who’s greatest hunting feat is to denigrate hunters you have no history of.
To show this is not to brag but rather inform you of your ignorance relative to anything having to do with me, and my greatest passion outside of family.
Post by: dreamingbig on March 20, 2018, 11:06:02 PM
As a precursor to my comments, and any reflections that may arise from fellow members, may we remember that regardless of the hunting cloth we’re each cut from, we are of the same blood line. We are hunters and like any family, we will argue, disagree and at times, not even like each other.Question: what weapon have you used the past 5 years?
The ultimate goal, like a family, is to not let our differences separate us and give the ultra-liberals the victory they so badly want.
This said, I agree with the limiting of cow elk harvesting in the 300 series GMU’s. My rationale has everything to with fair opportunity for each of the three hunting groups (bow, modern, muzzy). To cut straight to the chase, I have over 25 years of hunting the 328 and 329. As an elk camp with members with over 40 years at our site, few on this forum have more firsthand experience of the ‘Colockum’ changes than us. My point in saying this is not to brag, but perhaps give credibility to my premise. Collectively, we have several hundred years of 328, 329 history. We’ve seen it all up there, and no single change has been more significant to the muzzy and modern hunters than the implementation of open cow to bow hunters. The impact on the heard, post the archery season, is undisputable. By the end of archery, the elk have made a mass exodus to the reserve and stay there through the remaining seasons. Does this resultant equate to parity and fairness to the remaining groups? NO.
This change is four years over due.
We can all have our own opinions, but not our own facts. And to the elimination of all cow harvesting for a period of time: I’d support that type of move with the exception of those over an agreed upon elderly age and the disabled.
To close, those who claim they will stop hunting as a result of this potential change, I’d suggest you reflect how important this privilege is to you. We were once a camp that solely hunted modern. It killed us as at first to change our hunting identity but the Colockum devolved so we had to evolve. I hope you can do the same, we are all an important part of maintaining this areas carrying heard health.
I wish all health and hunting success.
As to stopping hunting.... I will be stopping archery elk hunting in this state because it won’t be worth the effort. However I will be out of state with archery elk tag in hand this fall.
Chasing unicorns is a tough go... on a good nutrition year good luck finding one. They end up growing a 2x3 rack!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Oh Mah on March 20, 2018, 11:36:37 PM
I agree,Not aiming at anyone specific but the lines are not blurred but with me,I see clearly the people not just on here but everywhere the ones that are screaming the loudest and pointing fingers at the user groups that get this or get that are not any different than the other groups in this country that cry not fair being treated unfair and all that.
User group against user group is always a fail!
Vast majority of people upset about this are not mad at the hunters of other weapon choices but the decision made by wdfw so let's not get those lines blurred. :twocents:
I see that there is a lot of hunters like myself that like to do all 3,switch it up.Hit up other areas.
If you want to say your gonna hunt another state like its gonna bother other hunters or something you are wrong.There was a time that archery was tougher than it is now were you complainers archery hunting back when it was re-curve bows.I can honestly say that my presence in the woods early elk archery has made it harder for all user groups for the rest of the season as far as the local elk go. IF YOU ARE ALLOWED TO HUNT MODERN OR MUZZY AND YOU DONT LIKE THE CHANGE FOR WHATEVER REASON SWITCH UP A LITTLE. :twocents:
Post by: REHJWA on March 20, 2018, 11:55:18 PM
Will chasing spikes/bulls during the archery season still push the elk off their summer range and into the refuge? Are there going to be a large enough reduction that archery has less impact?
What are the archery cow harvest numbers? Do they warrant no harvest. Are they going to propose tags based on herd health or dollars form tag draws?
What else has contributed to the decline?
Hope it goes well for all...
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 21, 2018, 05:19:35 AM
Post by: Matth on March 21, 2018, 07:57:40 AM
Post by: D-Rock425 on March 21, 2018, 08:14:33 AM
Post by: Matth on March 21, 2018, 08:18:23 AM
This shouldn't be bow hunters vs other hunters it should be hunters as a unified group vs wdfw. To find a solution to the problem.Agreed
Post by: White Pass Outfitters on March 21, 2018, 09:03:22 AM
Post by: Mudman on March 21, 2018, 09:40:17 AM
Post by: gasman on March 21, 2018, 12:03:54 PM
1, Where is the evidence of declining elk herd?
The WDFW them self admits that they don't know and arw guessing at hers size, and use the word "likely" decline. They have not done a herd size study since 2016 I believe. I have trail cams up all summer as well as others in our hunting group and we generally have seen an increase in elk numbers on our cams over the last few years.
2, While archery hunters are getting the blame, the stats from the WDFW show that Muzzy hunters harvest more cows then archerwrs. They as a group are above harvest stats while archery and modern hunters are below harvest goals.
Post by: dreamingbig on March 21, 2018, 12:26:58 PM
This shouldn't be bow hunters vs other hunters it should be hunters as a unified group vs wdfw. To find a solution to the problem.I would love to agree with this but the tail wags the dog. They listen to the money.
Archery hunters had to fight for every season and there are many that could care less if they disappear therefore we are forced to be vocal and active. Why is a MF hunter going to care if other user groups lose opportunity. They don’t... no skin in the game.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Matth on March 21, 2018, 01:44:52 PM
This shouldn't be bow hunters vs other hunters it should be hunters as a unified group vs wdfw. To find a solution to the problem.I would love to agree with this but the tail wags the dog. They listen to the money.
Archery hunters had to fight for every season and there are many that could care less if they disappear therefore we are forced to be vocal and active. Why is a MF hunter going to care if other user groups lose opportunity. They don’t... no skin in the game.
Because there are a lot of MF hunters out there who hunt with archery gear as well. I for one switched back to MF last season after 16 seasons with a bow, just trying to get away from everybody and there brother with a camera, and grunt tube running around all hours of the night educating elk. At some point in the near future i will want to get my now 10 year old son on to some bugling bulls, and i would like to have a reasonable season to do it in.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Matth on March 21, 2018, 02:03:04 PM
I agree,Not aiming at anyone specific but the lines are not blurred but with me,I see clearly the people not just on here but everywhere the ones that are screaming the loudest and pointing fingers at the user groups that get this or get that are not any different than the other groups in this country that cry not fair being treated unfair and all that.
User group against user group is always a fail!
Vast majority of people upset about this are not mad at the hunters of other weapon choices but the decision made by wdfw so let's not get those lines blurred. :twocents:
I see that there is a lot of hunters like myself that like to do all 3,switch it up.Hit up other areas.
If you want to say your gonna hunt another state like its gonna bother other hunters or something you are wrong.There was a time that archery was tougher than it is now were you complainers archery hunting back when it was re-curve bows.I can honestly say that my presence in the woods early elk archery has made it harder for all user groups for the rest of the season as far as the local elk go. IF YOU ARE ALLOWED TO HUNT MODERN OR MUZZY AND YOU DONT LIKE THE CHANGE FOR WHATEVER REASON SWITCH UP A LITTLE. :twocents:
Well said :yeah:
Post by: GrampasGuns on March 22, 2018, 12:00:50 PM
That rocked my head.
Post by: vandeman17 on March 22, 2018, 12:18:02 PM
User group against user group is always a fail!
Vast majority of people upset about this are not mad at the hunters of other weapon choices but the decision made by wdfw so let's not get those lines blurred. :twocents:
If you want to say your gonna hunt another state like its gonna bother other hunters or something you are wrong.There was a time that archery was tougher than it is now were you complainers archery hunting back when it was re-curve bows.I can honestly say that my presence in the woods early elk archery has made it harder for all user groups for the rest of the season as far as the local elk go. IF YOU ARE ALLOWED TO HUNT MODERN OR MUZZY AND YOU DONT LIKE THE CHANGE FOR WHATEVER REASON SWITCH UP A LITTLE. :twocents:
If we go back to recurves then make modern go back to single power or even open sights. That argument is lame. Archery has progressed but so has modern firearm technology. Give me a break.
Post by: Stein on March 22, 2018, 02:03:57 PM
Life is full of choices, I am not under the illusion that I should be able to do what I want, when I want with no interference from anyone else.
Post by: W_Ellison2011 on March 22, 2018, 02:49:13 PM
I 100% agree! MOST people archery hunting with current compound bows are still not taking shots at game beyond 70 yards. There are the few that do... some actually know how to do it and the others aren't ethical hunters. So lets figure this out. 70 yards with a compound. I know people who can hit targets all day at 55-60 yards with a recurve or longbow. so the compound gained 10-15 yards over the recurve realistically speaking. That's a 17% increase in range. Now lets look at modern firearms. The average old style hunting rifle with a fixed power scope or iron sights was good for hunting 150-200 yards, yes I know that some took longer shots with the sharps and such but a lot of those were wounding shots and not kill shots. Modern rifles with variable power scopes are EASILY capable of 300-400 yard shots and that's without any real effort. If a person puts in their time at the range then we can easily approach 600-1,000 yard shots, but I won't factor that into this. For the math lets go with the 200 yards for the old rifles and 300 for the new. That's a 50% increase in range. If we go to 400 yards that's 100% increase in range. For some of us that shoot further and are comfortable with it then that percentage goes up exponentially. Same goes for modern muzzle loaders. A few people back in the day could boast clean shots of 100 yards or slightly further. Most would shoot 50-80 yards. Now you can push a modern muzzy out to 150-200 yards pretty easily even with iron sights. For the math lets say 75 yards was average back in the day and 150 is with todays modern muzzle loaders. That's a 100% increase in range. So basically... modern firearms and muzzle loaders have pushed WELL beyond what archery equipment is capable of in todays hunting scenarios! Hell with modern firearms you don't have to be anywhere close to an elk to kill it. I personally can place a hand loaded 200 gr barnes tsx on a 13"x13" board at 630 yards first shot cold bore from my 300 wby mag. With my compound bow I can hit a target at 60 yards comfortably. I would never take a shot at an elk beyond 60 yards with my bow but anything inside of 600 with my rifle is dead. Do you all get where I am coming from with this? Basically you have an advantage of being first in the woods as archery, yes, no arguing that. You also have an advantage of using a muzzle loader or a modern firearm because you don't have to get NEARLY as close to your target as the archery hunter! I'm not saying all of this to divide us. I'm saying all of this to get you all to think about the hunting methods available. Do I agree that eastern Wa elk shouldn't be OTC antlerless for archery? YES! Do I think antlerless should be a draw tag for archery since it is for muzzy and modern? YES! Lets push for that and see how things go over the next 5 years. I feel like that will help the herds replenish a bit... BUT we also need to push HARD for predator control. Let us bait bears! Let people use hounds for mountain lion! Charge us extra for bait site licenses and hound hunting licenses. That's more funding going into the wdfw and it will knock down 2 of the big predators we have. I would say let us kill some wolves too but we all know that's not going to happen anytime soon...
User group against user group is always a fail!
Vast majority of people upset about this are not mad at the hunters of other weapon choices but the decision made by wdfw so let's not get those lines blurred. :twocents:
If you want to say your gonna hunt another state like its gonna bother other hunters or something you are wrong.There was a time that archery was tougher than it is now were you complainers archery hunting back when it was re-curve bows.I can honestly say that my presence in the woods early elk archery has made it harder for all user groups for the rest of the season as far as the local elk go. IF YOU ARE ALLOWED TO HUNT MODERN OR MUZZY AND YOU DONT LIKE THE CHANGE FOR WHATEVER REASON SWITCH UP A LITTLE. :twocents:
If we go back to recurves then make modern go back to single power or even open sights. That argument is lame. Archery has progressed but so has modern firearm technology. Give me a break.
Post by: Special T on March 22, 2018, 02:56:30 PM
After my last elk hunt, I decided I was tired of hunting largely nocturnal animals that have been hunted by a half dozen other license groups before I got there. So, I bought a bow and will be hunting the archery season next year.Welcome to the Club. I started archery because I wanted access to private parcels near me, and a bow opened those doors. Everything has an opportunity cost, I agree. I am a sportsman that has hunted with all 3 disciplines. I'm only moderately sucessful but enjoy the thrill of the hunt. The development of other skills in the process is a HUGE part as well.
Life is full of choices, I am not under the illusion that I should be able to do what I want, when I want with no interference from anyone else.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: Oh Mah on March 22, 2018, 05:18:20 PM
ok ok you forced me so here you go,How many archery guys are archery because they have no choice because of some sort of prohibited status.As i said if you don't like it try other hunts.this state has been switching between groups for what one gets and don't get for years.
User group against user group is always a fail!
Vast majority of people upset about this are not mad at the hunters of other weapon choices but the decision made by wdfw so let's not get those lines blurred. :twocents:
If you want to say your gonna hunt another state like its gonna bother other hunters or something you are wrong.There was a time that archery was tougher than it is now were you complainers archery hunting back when it was re-curve bows.I can honestly say that my presence in the woods early elk archery has made it harder for all user groups for the rest of the season as far as the local elk go. IF YOU ARE ALLOWED TO HUNT MODERN OR MUZZY AND YOU DONT LIKE THE CHANGE FOR WHATEVER REASON SWITCH UP A LITTLE. :twocents:
If we go back to re curves then make modern go back to single power or even open sights. That argument is lame. Archery has progressed but so has modern firearm technology. Give me a break.
I wasn't talking about the advances of either i was talking about how many archery hunt for diff. reasons.and believe me more will be going to archery as time goes by.meaning more disturbing the deer and elk early killing chances for other groups later as has been pointed out a few times now.If all the complainers are concerned about is themselves its not even worth discussing.
Cry me a river go hunt another state most wont care or even will welcome the idea for them to do that.I have hunted these areas for several years and do all 3 seasons off and on or via multi season.I don't see much of a problem.What my point on the re curves was the prohibited people wouldn't even hunt if we didn't have cross bows and compounds and with the crime rate going up its going to get more crowded in the woods,I guess we can look forward to that complaining coming soon.. rant over just my op,like it or not i don't care. I hunt first for the experience and togetherness with family,second to fill my freezer.
Post by: jstone on March 22, 2018, 05:45:57 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 22, 2018, 05:55:06 PM
Post by: W_Ellison2011 on March 22, 2018, 08:17:36 PM
:tup: that's why i switch up.Now i know you are not gonna say that there are no rude or un sportsman type archery guys are you?Its all ratio.Just like popeshawnpaul said and there is no changing that.Won't say there aren't any rude of unsportsman type archery guys... but from my experiences.. there are by far FEWER in archery than there are in MF lol! Also don't see the woods trashed nearly as much from archery season as you do once muzzy and MF seasons are finished. My father quit hunting MF before I was even born. Took one time of a couple drunk idiots cracking off rounds at "movement" at the bottom of a clear, which was my father walking through the bottom edge of a clear cut, to make him change. I've done mostly archery but I did switch to modern for deer a couple times and am sticking with modern until I get the quality bull tag I want. I will say the woods are WAY more packed with people during MF season than during archery... that might contribute to your issue of the elk vanishing?
Post by: Oh Mah on March 22, 2018, 08:37:59 PM
Oh mah.!! Oh My.!!! I Love a archery cause I like to challenge myself. If your a great archery hunter you can hunt any weapon and be proficient. The main reason that I changed was cause of some of the crazy rifle hunters. Got dangerous. People challenge to take my animal. 10 people in a canyon shooting at an animal and arguing about it. Not my style. I am a considerate hunter. I see someone where I want to go I find another spot. That’s getting harder to do sense not many people will be that courteous any more. Bow hunter for lifeIf you hunt archery for the challenge why do you hunt early season?If you truly hunt archery for the challenge you should refuse to hunt early season by the harvest numbers that we have all seen.
Post by: W_Ellison2011 on March 22, 2018, 10:02:43 PM
What does it being early season have anything to do with how challenging archery hunting is? Have you tried archery hunting for elk? I feel like you haven't if you don't think that even early season is a challenge.... You still have to be able to stalk or call an elk to within 60 yards and try to put an arrow into them perfectly... without spooking them while drawing your bow or any little thing. Its not like mf where you can see an elk a couple hundred yards away oblivious to you being there and just crack a round off...Oh mah.!! Oh My.!!! I Love a archery cause I like to challenge myself. If your a great archery hunter you can hunt any weapon and be proficient. The main reason that I changed was cause of some of the crazy rifle hunters. Got dangerous. People challenge to take my animal. 10 people in a canyon shooting at an animal and arguing about it. Not my style. I am a considerate hunter. I see someone where I want to go I find another spot. That’s getting harder to do sense not many people will be that courteous any more. Bow hunter for lifeIf you hunt archery for the challenge why do you hunt early season?If you truly hunt archery for the challenge you should refuse to hunt early season by the harvest numbers that we have all seen.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 22, 2018, 10:24:20 PM
That's not even what this thread is about though,This thread is about some hunters crying and whining about changes that are not FAIR to them.When and lets be honest it has in the past been the other way around.mf loses out muzzy loses out.Wheres the outrage then?
I also think the no hunters safety no putting in for apps is an awesome way over due idea.No don't even try to say what about the kids its supposed to always be about the kids.Well i say bull,What about the kids that put out the effort already to do hunters ed that will be waiting as well.
Post by: elkcamp64 on March 23, 2018, 12:09:04 AM
Between your mercy call of how much tougher bow hunting is, and stating how more disrespectful other brands of hunters are leaves you sounding embarrassingly prejudicial and less than uninformed. You’re arguments are emotionally driven and therefore discountable. Your opinion is imperative; your lack of civility is not.
Here’s a thought.. Should the decision be made to put modern first, muzzy next and conclude with bow, I wonder how your perception would change? You could math model this scenario all you want, but a real life controlled experiment with supporting data, and not hypotheticals, would probably lend to two different positive outcomes based on a greater success rate of the first two hunting groups. The carrying capacity goals and bull to cow ratios would result in meeting the greater needs of the herds. As a physicist, I know the scatter of data would take years to build derivatives from and is just hyperbole in thought. But still, would it be interesting?
Now I know your response attempt will lead to some disconnected esoteric, red herring (look it up), nonfact related retort about this. But go ahead anyway. It’ll be worth the laugh.
I was truly looking for cerebral conversation to this pressing issue and conclude it’s not going to happen.
And member ‘OH MAN’, thank you for trying.
Good luck to all and most of all to the animals, for if this course of conversation mirrors what goes on in Olympia, soon no one will have anything to worry or complain about.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 23, 2018, 12:26:23 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 23, 2018, 04:55:23 AM
Post by: boneaddict on March 23, 2018, 06:03:51 AM
Post by: Matth on March 23, 2018, 07:40:26 AM
I 100% agree! MOST people archery hunting with current compound bows are still not taking shots at game beyond 70 yards. There are the few that do... some actually know how to do it and the others aren't ethical hunters. So lets figure this out. 70 yards with a compound. I know people who can hit targets all day at 55-60 yards with a recurve or longbow. so the compound gained 10-15 yards over the recurve realistically speaking. That's a 17% increase in range. Now lets look at modern firearms. The average old style hunting rifle with a fixed power scope or iron sights was good for hunting 150-200 yards, yes I know that some took longer shots with the sharps and such but a lot of those were wounding shots and not kill shots. Modern rifles with variable power scopes are EASILY capable of 300-400 yard shots and that's without any real effort. If a person puts in their time at the range then we can easily approach 600-1,000 yard shots, but I won't factor that into this. For the math lets go with the 200 yards for the old rifles and 300 for the new. That's a 50% increase in range. If we go to 400 yards that's 100% increase in range. For some of us that shoot further and are comfortable with it then that percentage goes up exponentially. Same goes for modern muzzle loaders. A few people back in the day could boast clean shots of 100 yards or slightly further. Most would shoot 50-80 yards. Now you can push a modern muzzy out to 150-200 yards pretty easily even with iron sights. For the math lets say 75 yards was average back in the day and 150 is with todays modern muzzle loaders. That's a 100% increase in range. So basically... modern firearms and muzzle loaders have pushed WELL beyond what archery equipment is capable of in todays hunting scenarios! Hell with modern firearms you don't have to be anywhere close to an elk to kill it. I personally can place a hand loaded 200 gr barnes tsx on a 13"x13" board at 630 yards first shot cold bore from my 300 wby mag. With my compound bow I can hit a target at 60 yards comfortably. I would never take a shot at an elk beyond 60 yards with my bow but anything inside of 600 with my rifle is dead. Do you all get where I am coming from with this? Basically you have an advantage of being first in the woods as archery, yes, no arguing that. You also have an advantage of using a muzzle loader or a modern firearm because you don't have to get NEARLY as close to your target as the archery hunter! I'm not saying all of this to divide us. I'm saying all of this to get you all to think about the hunting methods available. Do I agree that eastern Wa elk shouldn't be OTC antlerless for archery? YES! Do I think antlerless should be a draw tag for archery since it is for muzzy and modern? YES! Lets push for that and see how things go over the next 5 years. I feel like that will help the herds replenish a bit... BUT we also need to push HARD for predator control. Let us bait bears! Let people use hounds for mountain lion! Charge us extra for bait site licenses and hound hunting licenses. That's more funding going into the wdfw and it will knock down 2 of the big predators we have. I would say let us kill some wolves too but we all know that's not going to happen anytime soon...
User group against user group is always a fail!
Vast majority of people upset about this are not mad at the hunters of other weapon choices but the decision made by wdfw so let's not get those lines blurred. :twocents:
If you want to say your gonna hunt another state like its gonna bother other hunters or something you are wrong.There was a time that archery was tougher than it is now were you complainers archery hunting back when it was re-curve bows.I can honestly say that my presence in the woods early elk archery has made it harder for all user groups for the rest of the season as far as the local elk go. IF YOU ARE ALLOWED TO HUNT MODERN OR MUZZY AND YOU DONT LIKE THE CHANGE FOR WHATEVER REASON SWITCH UP A LITTLE. :twocents:
If we go back to recurves then make modern go back to single power or even open sights. That argument is lame. Archery has progressed but so has modern firearm technology. Give me a break.
Bravo
Post by: vandeman17 on March 23, 2018, 08:17:23 AM
Oh mah.!! Oh My.!!! I Love a archery cause I like to challenge myself. If your a great archery hunter you can hunt any weapon and be proficient. The main reason that I changed was cause of some of the crazy rifle hunters. Got dangerous. People challenge to take my animal. 10 people in a canyon shooting at an animal and arguing about it. Not my style. I am a considerate hunter. I see someone where I want to go I find another spot. That’s getting harder to do sense not many people will be that courteous any more. Bow hunter for lifeIf you hunt archery for the challenge why do you hunt early season?If you truly hunt archery for the challenge you should refuse to hunt early season by the harvest numbers that we have all seen.
Oh please. You are nullifying the validity of your comments with each comment like this.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 23, 2018, 11:27:44 AM
Post by: vandeman17 on March 23, 2018, 11:36:05 AM
To expand where I am coming from, I grew up rifle hunting with my dad and grandpa, mainly deer. I was about 14 or so when I first experienced elk hunting with a rifle and that was enough to entice me to switch to archery. I did it not only for the challenge but because I love the weather in early season plus it gave me the best chance to hunt elk during the rut. I have nothing against people who choose other weapons as that is 100% their decision. I would just like to see the actual data behind the decisions WDFW makes and if they can show me that elk numbers are below objective AND early archery is the main culprit then I would be ok with it. Until then, if they are making decisions saying elk numbers are low then opportunity should be cut across the board and backed up with hard numbers.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 23, 2018, 12:23:14 PM
Post by: vandeman17 on March 23, 2018, 12:32:22 PM
Why did rifle hunting scare you to archery?
Didn't scare me but I didn't care for the pumpkin patch, war zone that I experienced. I watched elk getting shot at from all directions and decided it wasn't for me.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 23, 2018, 12:49:38 PM
Oh mah.!! Oh My.!!! I Love a archery cause I like to challenge myself. If your a great archery hunter you can hunt any weapon and be proficient. The main reason that I changed was cause of some of the crazy rifle hunters. Got dangerous. People challenge to take my animal. 10 people in a canyon shooting at an animal and arguing about it. Not my style. I am a considerate hunter. I see someone where I want to go I find another spot. That’s getting harder to do sense not many people will be that courteous any more. Bow hunter for lifeMy experience (westside) has been that is more likely for bowhunters to be crowded into a canyon and arguing. When rifle season gets here in November (elk), I hardly see anyone in any kind of canyon (most are in their trucks-especially if the rain is really coming down). Occasionally see a person on a bike or walking a gated road. But early bow, ten guys will descend on a bugle and argue about who gets to hunt that canyon. The bow guys (again westside-coast) seem to be really territorial--get to gates super early. It has been kind of interesting to see the different personalities that tend to go with the different groups.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 23, 2018, 02:08:11 PM
Your argument, at least the way I am reading it, is that early archery season is the easiest of all options. If I am mistaken, and you are just comparing early archery to late archery then I agree.That explains a lot,That's exactly what i was saying.It is only obvious to anyone that archery is more difficult than other methods,But if the elk are running mostly onto private land after the early archery then it gets quite diff. for the other user groups as well.That doesn't matter to the complainers now does it?It's all about their loss right.You were looking for an argument that wasn't there.The fact is that there is no reason for anyone to be upset about these changes,unless the complainers are only concerned about themselves and are not concerned about other hunters and the elk.It has been shown clear as glass what group harvest the most antler less elk.I guess that shows what group has been getting the most chances lately huh.The more and more i read about the whiners on all these forums,the more i like it.
To expand where I am coming from, I grew up rifle hunting with my dad and grandpa, mainly deer. I was about 14 or so when I first experienced elk hunting with a rifle and that was enough to entice me to switch to archery. I did it not only for the challenge but because I love the weather in early season plus it gave me the best chance to hunt elk during the rut. I have nothing against people who choose other weapons as that is 100% their decision. I would just like to see the actual data behind the decisions WDFW makes and if they can show me that elk numbers are below objective AND early archery is the main culprit then I would be ok with it. Until then, if they are making decisions saying elk numbers are low then opportunity should be cut across the board and backed up with hard numbers.
Post by: vandeman17 on March 23, 2018, 02:39:33 PM
Your argument, at least the way I am reading it, is that early archery season is the easiest of all options. If I am mistaken, and you are just comparing early archery to late archery then I agree.That explains a lot,That's exactly what i was saying.It is only obvious to anyone that archery is more difficult than other methods,But if the elk are running mostly onto private land after the early archery then it gets quite diff. for the other user groups as well.That doesn't matter to the complainers now does it?It's all about their loss right.You were looking for an argument that wasn't there.The fact is that there is no reason for anyone to be upset about these changes,unless the complainers are only concerned about themselves and are not concerned about other hunters and the elk.It has been shown clear as glass what group harvest the most antler less elk.I guess that shows what group has been getting the most chances lately huh.The more and more i read about the whiners on all these forums,the more i like it.
To expand where I am coming from, I grew up rifle hunting with my dad and grandpa, mainly deer. I was about 14 or so when I first experienced elk hunting with a rifle and that was enough to entice me to switch to archery. I did it not only for the challenge but because I love the weather in early season plus it gave me the best chance to hunt elk during the rut. I have nothing against people who choose other weapons as that is 100% their decision. I would just like to see the actual data behind the decisions WDFW makes and if they can show me that elk numbers are below objective AND early archery is the main culprit then I would be ok with it. Until then, if they are making decisions saying elk numbers are low then opportunity should be cut across the board and backed up with hard numbers.
All I can do is :chuckle: at your continued rambling non sense. Elk running to private ground after archery. Where you come up with your "knowledge" astounds me but isn't worth mine, or anyone's time to rebute. Good day and enjoy your pumpkin patch.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 23, 2018, 03:03:29 PM
Do you hunt any other group than archery?
Post by: elkcamp64 on March 23, 2018, 03:05:06 PM
WHAT?? Did you actually just ask that “knowledge” question of Oh Mah?
With that remark, I’m convinced that you are truly uneducated of a lead cow’s ability to remember safe locations and move the herds to those spots. This applies to calving locales, areas to forage during deep winters, security during hunting seasons such as reserves, private lands that can’t be hunted or any other place that provides them the greatest safety.
You said it, it’s there in your written word and regardless of where anyone sides on this issue, one thing all seasoned hunters will agree upon is this; you are undereducated to the dynamics of any animals basic needs of survival. Food, water, shelter, and the often overlooked fourth element: Means of escape and avoidance.
WOW
Post by: vandeman17 on March 23, 2018, 03:15:28 PM
All I can do is at your continued rambling non sense. Elk running to private ground after archery. Where you come up with your "knowledge" astounds me but isn't worth mine, or anyone's time to rebute. Good day and enjoy your pumpkin patch.
WHAT?? Did you actually just ask that “knowledge” question of Oh Mah?
With that remark, I’m convinced that you are truly uneducated of a lead cow’s ability to remember safe locations and move the herds to those spots. This applies to calving locales, areas to forage during deep winters, security during hunting seasons such as reserves, private lands that can’t be hunted or any other place that provides them the greatest safety.
You said it, it’s there in your written word and regardless of where anyone sides on this issue, one thing all seasoned hunters will agree upon is this; you are undereducated to the dynamics of any animals basic needs of survival. Food, water, shelter, and the often overlooked fourth element: Means of escape and avoidance.
WOW
Boy, you put me in my place. Its all archery hunters fault that elk go to these safe spots and has nothing to do with the rut ending and the onslaught of muzzy and modern hunters hitting the woods too. Your assumptions of my knowledge as well as blaming early archery hunters for your shortcomings is comical.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 23, 2018, 03:34:40 PM
Answer my question.Do you hunt any other weapon than archery for elk?
Post by: jrebel on March 23, 2018, 03:37:38 PM
I guess for entertainment value, I will tag with my response so I know which members are completely disconnected from reality. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: vandeman17 on March 23, 2018, 03:39:49 PM
No one is blaming archery,get over yourself.All we are saying is it could be the reason for the change.As per popeshawnpauls statement of which i agree with. If you would read these posts you would know that.Now,you are obviously trying to cause trouble with this by misquoting what is being said.yes all groups keep the elk running.DUH.What is being said is archery gets it started.they are first.It starts somewhere every year.this year it will not be archery if the wdfw does what they plan this year.
Answer my question.Do you hunt any other weapon than archery for elk?
I responded to elkcamp's comment directly with my last comment. As for your question, yes, I have hunted all three weapons for elk but not sure why that applies here. I chose long ago that I prefer archery because of the reasons I listed earlier, at least in eastern wa. I have never hunted elk in western and don't plan to.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 23, 2018, 03:41:05 PM
Post by: vandeman17 on March 23, 2018, 03:42:40 PM
sorry,i did not ask you if you have hunted i asked if you do as in still.
Not in Washington but I have in other states as recently as like 2-3 years ago. 95% of elk is archery, deer is about 50/50 depending on where I am going.
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on March 23, 2018, 04:49:00 PM
If the overall take needs reduced then eliminate archery general and go permit only, reworking special permits in other categories/weapons to balance it out. ( Perhaps I am not reading the stats correctly, but it looks like there is opportunity and take for the other weapons as well?)
Archery has always enjoyed the advantage of going first. Common sense would dictate that if the goal is animal conservation starting seasons off with the least effective method would be logical as the animals adapt to hunter pressure while keeping harvest to a minimum. Since the most vocal proponents have stated they hunt multiple weapons and seasons I guess I dont see what the problem is. Unless they are not giving the whole truth :chuckle:
A sidenote: I notice in many of these threads that the discussion often turns into a question of "whats the most challenging". With bowhunters touting weapon hindrance, and other user groups holding strong to the season disadvantage. In these discussions it seems like the individuals success seems to be a springboard for the reason why X is not as challenging as Y. I will say just because something is more challenging doesn't mean there are not plenty of folks who rise to said challenge and are successful regardless. Success doesn't mean that whatever method was used was not a challenge.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 23, 2018, 05:39:04 PM
The point is that every time something like this happens some are too quick to come out and say why us why not them,Or mf has the best equipment to get a harvest.Like i said i hunt all weapons but lets look at all of it openly.
1)Archery first to go out.
2)archery has early,and gen late season.
3)no pumpkin patch.
4)no gunshot scaring herd off for miles.
5)no hunter orange required.
Muzzy
1)no hunter orange required
2)peak rut
3)Less hunters
4)with my inline long range i can easily take an elk at 200 - 250 yards confidently.
MF.
1)longer shots(if the elk are still around)
Did i miss anything?Every group has it's challenges as has been pointed out several times over the past 2-3 decades.To try and take from another group because it's archery's turn to take a backseat is childish at best.
Post by: Buzz2401 on March 23, 2018, 06:24:37 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 23, 2018, 06:32:21 PM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on March 24, 2018, 12:01:11 PM
Post by: teanawayslayer on March 24, 2018, 12:14:47 PM
As an archery hunter, I say close down muzzy and modern seasons completely. More animals will survive and I won’t have to hear the sniveling about how archery ran all the animals off. My camp has yours beat on years of experience so our conclusions, I guess, would override yours.:bdid:What an ignorant comment! You might as well say shut down all hunting season. Then where would that get us?
Sounds to me like that would solve the problem.
Post by: JKEEN33 on March 24, 2018, 12:48:18 PM
As an archery hunter, I say close down muzzy and modern seasons completely. More animals will survive and I won’t have to hear the sniveling about how archery ran all the animals off. My camp has yours beat on years of experience so our conclusions, I guess, would override yours.:bdid:What an ignorant comment! You might as well say shut down all hunting season. Then where would that get us?
Sounds to me like that would solve the problem.
As already stated this was a sarcastic comment geared at the original post, but is obviously lost on this site. Enough explaining from me. Done with the moronic site.
Post by: full choke on March 24, 2018, 03:59:19 PM
As an archery hunter, I say close down muzzy and modern seasons completely. More animals will survive and I won’t have to hear the sniveling about how archery ran all the animals off. My camp has yours beat on years of experience so our conclusions, I guess, would override yours.:bdid:What an ignorant comment! You might as well say shut down all hunting season. Then where would that get us?
Sounds to me like that would solve the problem.
As already stated this was a sarcastic comment geared at the original post, but is obviously lost on this site. Enough explaining from me. Done with the moronic site.
FWIW- I could tell from your first post you were being sarcastic. Maybe people are reacting to the OP's post and arent't reading the responses in the correct state of mind?
Post by: bigbullshedhunter on April 03, 2018, 07:33:04 PM
As an archery hunter, I say close down muzzy and modern seasons completely. More animals will survive and I won’t have to hear the sniveling about how archery ran all the animals off. My camp has yours beat on years of experience so our conclusions, I guess, would override yours.
Sounds to me like that would solve the problem.
Post by: bigbullshedhunter on April 03, 2018, 07:36:22 PM
As an archery hunter, I say close down muzzy and modern seasons completely. More animals will survive and I won’t have to hear the sniveling about how archery ran all the animals off. My camp has yours beat on years of experience so our conclusions, I guess, would override yours.
Sounds to me like that would solve the problem.
[/quote
I would have to say there would be more wounded animals with bow than a rifle. Average hunter would be dealing with more factors to interfere with the shot unlike a hunter who is as skilled as you are.
Post by: stickslinger on April 24, 2018, 06:05:30 AM
Post by: blindluck on June 24, 2018, 09:10:01 PM
Post by: Mudman on June 24, 2018, 09:43:17 PM
Post by: Gringo31 on June 24, 2018, 09:48:57 PM
Be Nice.
Yes, too many cow tags filled in 328 and 329. This isn't on accident. Why?
Yes, it's been reduced some this year. I'd recommend talking to a bio.
Post by: Elkcollector82 on June 25, 2018, 09:00:42 AM
I think hunters get blinders on when a change comes and they forget why they are out in the field in the first place. I’m out there to make memories and hopefully watch my kids punch a tag. But if we don’t. Oh well.
Post by: stickslinger on June 27, 2018, 06:06:23 PM
I wish I was a better type because I could go on for hours
Post by: KFhunter on June 27, 2018, 06:20:01 PM
one thread is enough, no need to "cast a wider net" by spamming the same thread in multiple areas of the forum.
Post by: W_Ellison2011 on June 29, 2018, 03:12:58 PM
I will state this one more time.... and yes this has been posted on other threads. Yes archery has grown in popularity and yes they have been able to hunt cows, but for you to say that all of the elk huddle in the reserve is ridiculous. There is a lot of area on that hill that is closed to archery but open to all other seasons. And yes the animals are spooky by the time you get up there but that happens by the second day of archery season, you say that people are whining, maybe they should I'm not saying that cow needed to stay open but to close it down, not offer any special permits for archery but increase the cow tags for ml and mf was wrong !!! The colockum herd needs help and it can't happen if we are too busy picking and moaning towards each other instead of working together.100% agree with you. I'm not going to sit here and say that the cow hunting for archery needs to go away. I'm going to say that if they do want to remove it then give archery as many tags as ML or MF get over the next 5-10 years and I bet money that the population will pick back up a bit. Also going to agree that saying that all the elk just run away and hide in an area people can't hunt is silly. I bet you money the elk get just as spooky and moved around by everyone scouting during the summer! So many people go out and spend a ton of time chasing the elk during the summer or even during the archery season, getting ready for the MF and ML seasons, that it has to effect the elk movements.
I wish I was a better type because I could go on for hours
Post by: KFhunter on June 29, 2018, 04:06:51 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 30, 2018, 07:12:27 AM
About 4 years ago, restrictions were put on cow tags for ML and Modern with little change in Bow regs regarding cows in those units. Now, the archery regs are catching up with the others. My fellow members of WSB probably disagree, but as long as the reductions of cow opportunities for archers are supported by science and statistics, I understand them. But, there lies the rub. The one glaring problem in the area we're talking about is the lack of a winter count last year, which makes the Department's decision seem rather arbitrary. Are the herds in that area hurting, thus dictating a change in harvest? We have no idea. So, all we have to go on is the word of unsuccessful hunters like me or the scientifically unsupported estimates of the WDF&Wolves. If you were to depend on my experience of elk harvest over the last 16 years, the whole SW corner of the state would be shut down completely. :chuckle: We need better science in this state in a great many categories - ungulates, predators, waterfowl, upland game. With this decision, I believe they're throwing darts in the dark. That doesn't mean it shouldn't of happened. It just means it's not supported by wildlife science. We are facing a great many problems because of decisions made without supporting data.