Post by: trophyhunt on April 15, 2018, 11:40:04 AM
Post by: lord grizzly on April 15, 2018, 11:58:12 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on April 15, 2018, 12:19:03 PM
Post by: Cougartail on April 15, 2018, 12:24:32 PM
Anybody but an emotional non-thinker can do the math and see wolves are a small problem compared to all the other predators and environmental issues. If your whining about wolves and not about the extra 1500 cougars in the state under the new harvest guidelines you need to reread "Little Red Riding Hood" and come to grips with your childhood fears.
Post by: trophyhunt on April 15, 2018, 12:32:31 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on April 15, 2018, 12:33:23 PM
Post by: Cougartail on April 15, 2018, 01:05:46 PM
Wolf kills on deer and elk, 6000 max.
Cougar kills on deer and elk, 85,000 min.
Yeah, I'm the one who isn't thinking clearly..
Do you want me to estimate bears and coyotes for you? lol
Post by: Magnum_Willys on April 15, 2018, 01:09:06 PM
How many deer/elk are killed each year by 200 wolves? Now lets look at the cougars. The estimate is 3500 to 4000 cats in the state. They make a kill every 10 to 14 days. Bears? There are 25000 to 30000 bears (fawn eaters) in the state. Coyotes? I've heard estimates of 100,000 or better. They are definitely fawn killers. You then throw in habitat lose and disease and things become clearer.. I agree but reality in Idaho is elk numbers didnt start rebounding until they got aggressive on wolves. That tells me wolves are the cause of tipping point. ???
Anybody but an emotional non-thinker can do the math and see wolves are a small problem compared to all the other predators and environmental issues. If your whining about wolves and not about the extra 1500 cougars in the state under the new harvest guidelines you need to reread "Little Red Riding Hood" and come to grips with your childhood fears.
Post by: trophyhunt on April 15, 2018, 01:09:59 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 15, 2018, 01:24:26 PM
How many deer/elk are killed each year by 200 wolves? Now lets look at the cougars. The estimate is 3500 to 4000 cats in the state. They make a kill every 10 to 14 days. Bears? There are 25000 to 30000 bears (fawn eaters) in the state. Coyotes? I've heard estimates of 100,000 or better. They are definitely fawn killers. You then throw in habitat lose and disease and things become clearer.
Anybody but an emotional non-thinker can do the math and see wolves are a small problem compared to all the other predators and environmental issues. If your whining about wolves and not about the extra 1500 cougars in the state under the new harvest guidelines you need to reread "Little Red Riding Hood" and come to grips with your childhood fears.
You're absolutely correct. Cougars and bears kill a lot of deer and elk. So gee, wouldn't it be responsible to add another apex predator when the WDFW already has a problem managing cougars and bears? It's like saying the house is already on fire. Let's add some kerosene. As far as your Little Red Riding Hood scenario is concerned, wolves act in very specific and predictable ways all over the world. It changes little or none from country to country. Once the wildlife is depleted, they feed on livestock and become more accustomed to being around humans. With nothing to fear, they start feeding closer to homes on pets and garbage. When the humans don't pose a threat, they start testing them and will eventually attack them. If you think wolves are no threat to humans, you really need to read more about countries where citizens aren't killing the wolves when they get out of hand. Russia, Iran, Scandinavian countries, Turkmenistan. Wolves will kill people and do it regularly, all over the world. Why do you think stories like Red Riding Hood were written?
Post by: Cougartail on April 15, 2018, 01:25:59 PM
Might be.. but I think it isn't the kills they make but the stress on herds due to the hunting tactics they use.. Chasing.How many deer/elk are killed each year by 200 wolves? Now lets look at the cougars. The estimate is 3500 to 4000 cats in the state. They make a kill every 10 to 14 days. Bears? There are 25000 to 30000 bears (fawn eaters) in the state. Coyotes? I've heard estimates of 100,000 or better. They are definitely fawn killers. You then throw in habitat lose and disease and things become clearer.. I agree but reality in Idaho is elk numbers didnt start rebounding until they got aggressive on wolves. That tells me wolves are the cause of tipping point. ???
Anybody but an emotional non-thinker can do the math and see wolves are a small problem compared to all the other predators and environmental issues. If your whining about wolves and not about the extra 1500 cougars in the state under the new harvest guidelines you need to reread "Little Red Riding Hood" and come to grips with your childhood fears.
Post by: idahohuntr on April 15, 2018, 01:57:07 PM
I remember a couple years ago on here when the wolf debate started, there was a few members saying they were looking forward to the time when the wolf population was enough to hunt them? Well, the wolf population is up, deer and elk are getting hit hard and still no hunts for wolves. Maybe you’ll get your wish by the time we lose 75% of our game, you going to be happy then????????? The blues used to be one of the best elk tags to draw in this entire country, now just in the past couple years it’s elk numbers has plumited, possibly by half! So is this what you wanted, just to hunt wolves? What a G damn waste! I’m not that nieve to think this is all because of the wolves, but they get most of the blame. You mad bro, or are you happy???If you are complaining specifically about the lower numbers of elk in the blues recently, I would attribute nearly all of those declines to the very harsh and prolonged winter in 2016.
Post by: Cougartail on April 15, 2018, 02:10:56 PM
How many deer/elk are killed each year by 200 wolves? Now lets look at the cougars. The estimate is 3500 to 4000 cats in the state. They make a kill every 10 to 14 days. Bears? There are 25000 to 30000 bears (fawn eaters) in the state. Coyotes? I've heard estimates of 100,000 or better. They are definitely fawn killers. You then throw in habitat lose and disease and things become clearer.
Anybody but an emotional non-thinker can do the math and see wolves are a small problem compared to all the other predators and environmental issues. If your whining about wolves and not about the extra 1500 cougars in the state under the new harvest guidelines you need to reread "Little Red Riding Hood" and come to grips with your childhood fears.
You're absolutely correct. Cougars and bears kill a lot of deer and elk. So gee, wouldn't it be responsible to add another apex predator when the WDFW already has a problem managing cougars and bears? It's like saying the house is already on fire. Let's add some kerosene. As far as your Little Red Riding Hood scenario is concerned, wolves act in very specific and predictable ways all over the world. It changes little or none from country to country. Once the wildlife is depleted, they feed on livestock and become more accustomed to being around humans. With nothing to fear, they start feeding closer to homes on pets and garbage. When the humans don't pose a threat, they start testing them and will eventually attack them. If you think wolves are no threat to humans, you really need to read more about countries where citizens aren't killing the wolves when they get out of hand. Russia, Iran, Scandinavian countries, Turkmenistan. Wolves will kill people and do it regularly, all over the world. Why do you think stories like Red Riding Hood were written?
Wolves kill around 200 people a year around world. Most in Asia. Bees kill more by far.. If you're worried about that, please head to your local college and ask for directions to their "Safe Space".
Funny thing is, when not hunting ungulates bears become a favorite target for wolves.. far more than humans or livestock. They also kill all competition by other predators in their "territories" including other wolves.
The wolf actually represents the werewolf in the 17 century original books. Modern children didn't understand that symbolism as werewolves aren't part of our culture.
Post by: trophyhunt on April 15, 2018, 02:19:12 PM
Im going to believe the guides that work and live in that country that I’ve talked with.I remember a couple years ago on here when the wolf debate started, there was a few members saying they were looking forward to the time when the wolf population was enough to hunt them? Well, the wolf population is up, deer and elk are getting hit hard and still no hunts for wolves. Maybe you’ll get your wish by the time we lose 75% of our game, you going to be happy then????????? The blues used to be one of the best elk tags to draw in this entire country, now just in the past couple years it’s elk numbers has plumited, possibly by half! So is this what you wanted, just to hunt wolves? What a G damn waste! I’m not that nieve to think this is all because of the wolves, but they get most of the blame. You mad bro, or are you happy???If you are complaining specifically about the lower numbers of elk in the blues recently, I would attribute nearly all of those declines to the very harsh and prolonged winter in 2016.
Post by: buglebrush on April 15, 2018, 03:28:25 PM
Wolves absolutely are the tipping point that pushed us into a predator pit. Also, the extreme duress put on pregnant cows by wolves has to affect calf survival.
Washington's ungulates are paying the price for WDFW's complete refusal to manage predators. That includes but isn't limited to wolves. We need some biologists to grow a pair, and raise a stink. But we know they won't. Bought and paid for. :twocents:
Post by: trophyhunt on April 15, 2018, 04:40:00 PM
Idahohntr is a serious Wolf apologist. Consistently.boom! Mic drop!!
Wolves absolutely are the tipping point that pushed us into a predator pit. Also, the extreme duress put on pregnant cows by wolves has to affect calf survival.
Washington's ungulates are paying the price for WDFW's complete refusal to manage predators. That includes but isn't limited to wolves. We need some biologists to grow a pair, and raise a stink. But we know they won't. Bought and paid for. :twocents:
Post by: idahohuntr on April 15, 2018, 07:32:40 PM
I live in the blues...watch bulls year round from my living room. The winter of 2016 is a major cause of the recent declines. Wolves did not just explode here...they are all around, but not in significant numbers to result in such a decline in one year.Im going to believe the guides that work and live in that country that I’ve talked with.I remember a couple years ago on here when the wolf debate started, there was a few members saying they were looking forward to the time when the wolf population was enough to hunt them? Well, the wolf population is up, deer and elk are getting hit hard and still no hunts for wolves. Maybe you’ll get your wish by the time we lose 75% of our game, you going to be happy then????????? The blues used to be one of the best elk tags to draw in this entire country, now just in the past couple years it’s elk numbers has plumited, possibly by half! So is this what you wanted, just to hunt wolves? What a G damn waste! I’m not that nieve to think this is all because of the wolves, but they get most of the blame. You mad bro, or are you happy???If you are complaining specifically about the lower numbers of elk in the blues recently, I would attribute nearly all of those declines to the very harsh and prolonged winter in 2016.
Post by: trophyhunt on April 15, 2018, 07:51:01 PM
Thats a hell of a view to cover the blues from your living room. I’ll still side w the guys that make a living in there.I live in the blues...watch bulls year round from my living room. The winter of 2016 is a major cause of the recent declines. Wolves did not just explode here...they are all around, but not in significant numbers to result in such a decline in one year.Im going to believe the guides that work and live in that country that I’ve talked with.I remember a couple years ago on here when the wolf debate started, there was a few members saying they were looking forward to the time when the wolf population was enough to hunt them? Well, the wolf population is up, deer and elk are getting hit hard and still no hunts for wolves. Maybe you’ll get your wish by the time we lose 75% of our game, you going to be happy then????????? The blues used to be one of the best elk tags to draw in this entire country, now just in the past couple years it’s elk numbers has plumited, possibly by half! So is this what you wanted, just to hunt wolves? What a G damn waste! I’m not that nieve to think this is all because of the wolves, but they get most of the blame. You mad bro, or are you happy???If you are complaining specifically about the lower numbers of elk in the blues recently, I would attribute nearly all of those declines to the very harsh and prolonged winter in 2016.
Post by: idaho guy on April 15, 2018, 08:32:13 PM
How many deer/elk are killed each year by 200 wolves? Now lets look at the cougars. The estimate is 3500 to 4000 cats in the state. They make a kill every 10 to 14 days. Bears? There are 25000 to 30000 bears (fawn eaters) in the state. Coyotes? I've heard estimates of 100,000 or better. They are definitely fawn killers. You then throw in habitat lose and disease and things become clearer.. I agree but reality in Idaho is elk numbers didnt start rebounding until they got aggressive on wolves. That tells me wolves are the cause of tipping point. ???
Anybody but an emotional non-thinker can do the math and see wolves are a small problem compared to all the other predators and environmental issues. If your whining about wolves and not about the extra 1500 cougars in the state under the new harvest guidelines you need to reread "Little Red Riding Hood" and come to grips with your childhood fears.
:yeah: we had way more lions and bears where I live in the “glory days” of Idaho elk hunting. Numbers went way down with wolves in a lot of areas with less lions and bears than what used to be there. I actually wish our lion population was higher since I love to chase them with hounds.wolves were definitely our problem. Since we have been managing them most areas are getting better but some will never be back to what they were. For whatever reason wolves are the problem I don’t know stress or how much they kill I just know they are the problem.
Post by: kball4 on April 16, 2018, 07:28:03 AM
Post by: 92xj on April 16, 2018, 07:40:51 AM
1 medium pack, 13 days, 7 bull elk killed.
I think your computer numbers statiscal *censored* is nowhere close to what is actually happening in the woods.
Let's believe the wdfw in what they say, look at all the people believing the harvest stats that wdfw just posted. It blows my mind that people think those numbers are accurate.
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 16, 2018, 07:47:39 AM
How many deer/elk are killed each year by 200 wolves? Now lets look at the cougars. The estimate is 3500 to 4000 cats in the state. They make a kill every 10 to 14 days. Bears? There are 25000 to 30000 bears (fawn eaters) in the state. Coyotes? I've heard estimates of 100,000 or better. They are definitely fawn killers. You then throw in habitat lose and disease and things become clearer.
Anybody but an emotional non-thinker can do the math and see wolves are a small problem compared to all the other predators and environmental issues. If your whining about wolves and not about the extra 1500 cougars in the state under the new harvest guidelines you need to reread "Little Red Riding Hood" and come to grips with your childhood fears.
You're absolutely correct. Cougars and bears kill a lot of deer and elk. So gee, wouldn't it be responsible to add another apex predator when the WDFW already has a problem managing cougars and bears? It's like saying the house is already on fire. Let's add some kerosene. As far as your Little Red Riding Hood scenario is concerned, wolves act in very specific and predictable ways all over the world. It changes little or none from country to country. Once the wildlife is depleted, they feed on livestock and become more accustomed to being around humans. With nothing to fear, they start feeding closer to homes on pets and garbage. When the humans don't pose a threat, they start testing them and will eventually attack them. If you think wolves are no threat to humans, you really need to read more about countries where citizens aren't killing the wolves when they get out of hand. Russia, Iran, Scandinavian countries, Turkmenistan. Wolves will kill people and do it regularly, all over the world. Why do you think stories like Red Riding Hood were written?
Wolves kill around 200 people a year around world. Most in Asia. Bees kill more by far.. If you're worried about that, please head to your local college and ask for directions to their "Safe Space".
Funny thing is, when not hunting ungulates bears become a favorite target for wolves.. far more than humans or livestock. They also kill all competition by other predators in their "territories" including other wolves.
The wolf actually represents the werewolf in the 17 century original books. Modern children didn't understand that symbolism as werewolves aren't part of our culture.
Cars kill 10s of thousands a people per year, too. But that has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. You're really good at strawman, but that doesn't change the facts. We were duped, lied to, and made ignorant of relevant facts regarding the introduction of wolves into the western US. The environmental and economic impact estimates were incredibly inaccurate, painting a rosy, huggable image of the harmless wolf that would turn out to be completely false. We weren't told about the majority of these wolves being infected with a disease that spreads to canids, ungulates, and humans; either was Congress. And we were lied to about the intentions of the people pushing for this introduction, being told that the population would be controlled. I still believe we're still being lied to about our current wolf population. This reintroduction has been a total scam job by environmentalists and those US and WA wildlife officials who worked with those environmentalists to ultimately undermine our entire North American Wildlife Model.
Post by: ctwiggs1 on April 16, 2018, 08:06:12 AM
And no, I'm not a fan of wolves in this state. I've got two small kids (3 and 1). I'm not necessarily against seeing wolves and grizzlies, but I'm not wild about the idea of camping with my kids in an area where wolves are rampant.
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 16, 2018, 09:02:05 AM
I'm surprised nobody has brought up the cougar quotas. Seems like limiting the hunting on a predator that is well established would have a worse impact than a couple hundred wolves.
And no, I'm not a fan of wolves in this state. I've got two small kids (3 and 1). I'm not necessarily against seeing wolves and grizzlies, but I'm not wild about the idea of camping with my kids in an area where wolves are rampant.
Without hounds, cougar quotas are rarely met, anyway, as far as i can tell. :dunno:
Post by: Cougartail on April 16, 2018, 09:33:47 AM
You brought up the threat to humans and used the liberal tactics, "they are dangerous" even though few people are ever killed. (AR-15s are dangerous but kill few people..better ban them!) Argue valid points or I 'll continue to but thing into prespective..
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 16, 2018, 09:55:03 AM
Region 3 fills all quotas except in 371 and 372 for cougars. This year those were met also which was suprising due to land ownership.
You brought up the threat to humans and used the liberal tactics, "they are dangerous" even though few people are ever killed. (AR-15s are dangerous but kill few people..better ban them!) Argue valid points or I 'll continue to but thing into prespective..
guns are guaranteed by constitutional rights. Again, a straw man. They have nothing to do with the predator spiral in WA. Either do bees, comets, or influenza. Also, there are 5 more regions which don't have the success of Region 3 on cougars, three of whom also have to deal with wolf populations. Cougar quotas should be dropped entirely but that still wouldn't help.
Post by: Cougartail on April 16, 2018, 09:58:58 AM
Two men followed a pack of 7 wolves for 13 days and found 7 FRESH elk kills off the road they were traveling on snow mobiles. Not looking in the woods, drainagaes, etc.
1 medium pack, 13 days, 7 bull elk killed.
I think your computer numbers statiscal *censored* is nowhere close to what is actually happening in the woods.
Let's believe the wdfw in what they say, look at all the people believing the
harvest stats that wdfw just posted. It blows my mind that people think those numbers are accurate.
Did your buddies check for bullet holes in those elk? Wolves are so successful at hunting.. that is why they ate all the plastic coating off extension cords at my buddies cabin in Alaska one winter. lol
As for believing those in the "feild", my buddy has over 50 years living with and trapping wolves in Alaska. Yeah I know Alaska wolves are completely different than Washington wolves.. Again..lol
Post by: Timberstalker on April 16, 2018, 10:12:56 AM
Region 3 fills all quotas except in 371 and 372 for cougars. This year those were met also which was suprising due to land ownership.
You brought up the threat to humans and used the liberal tactics, "they are dangerous" even though few people are ever killed. (AR-15s are dangerous but kill few people..better ban them!) Argue valid points or I 'll continue to but thing into prespective..
Lots of region 3 still open for Cougar hunting.....
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/cougar/
Post by: 92xj on April 16, 2018, 10:18:09 AM
Two men followed a pack of 7 wolves for 13 days and found 7 FRESH elk kills off the road they were traveling on snow mobiles. Not looking in the woods, drainagaes, etc.
1 medium pack, 13 days, 7 bull elk killed.
I think your computer numbers statiscal *censored* is nowhere close to what is actually happening in the woods.
Let's believe the wdfw in what they say, look at all the people believing the
harvest stats that wdfw just posted. It blows my mind that people think those numbers are accurate.
Did your buddies check for bullet holes in those elk? Wolves are so successful at hunting.. that is why they ate all the plastic coating off extension cords at my buddies cabin in Alaska one winter. lol
As for believing those in the "feild", my buddy has over 50 years living with and trapping wolves in Alaska. Yeah I know Alaska wolves are completely different than Washington wolves.. Again..lol
Not my buddies...
Hard to check for bullet holes when they eat and break rib, leg, face and other bones when eating, I thought you would know that wolves did that when eating kills in the winter when needing all the feed they can get, being the expert you are.
Call your Alaskan buddy, he can educate you more.
Sounds like you should venture out in the field; haven't been there in a while have you?
Post by: Cougartail on April 16, 2018, 10:48:33 AM
Region 3 fills all quotas except in 371 and 372 for cougars. This year those were met also which was suprising due to land ownership.
You brought up the threat to humans and used the liberal tactics, "they are dangerous" even though few people are ever killed. (AR-15s are dangerous but kill few people..better ban them!) Argue valid points or I 'll continue to but thing into prespective..
Lots of region 3 still open for Cougar hunting.....
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/cougar/
Region 3 is all units starting with the number 3.. all closed.
Post by: 92xj on April 16, 2018, 11:00:27 AM
Region 3 fills all quotas except in 371 and 372 for cougars. This year those were met also which was suprising due to land ownership.
You brought up the threat to humans and used the liberal tactics, "they are dangerous" even though few people are ever killed. (AR-15s are dangerous but kill few people..better ban them!) Argue valid points or I 'll continue to but thing into prespective..
Lots of region 3 still open for Cougar hunting.....
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/cougar/
Region 3 is all units starting with the number 3.. all closed.
Wrong again.
Look at the 8th row in the link. There are 300 series units listed as OPEN
Post by: Cougartail on April 16, 2018, 11:09:44 AM
Two men followed a pack of 7 wolves for 13 days and found 7 FRESH elk kills off the road they were traveling on snow mobiles. Not looking in the woods, drainagaes, etc.
1 medium pack, 13 days, 7 bull elk killed.
I think your computer numbers statiscal *censored* is nowhere close to what is actually happening in the woods.
Let's believe the wdfw in what they say, look at all the people believing the
harvest stats that wdfw just posted. It blows my mind that people think those numbers are accurate.
Did your buddies check for bullet holes in those elk? Wolves are so successful at hunting.. that is why they ate all the plastic coating off extension cords at my buddies cabin in Alaska one winter. lol
As for believing those in the "feild", my buddy has over 50 years living with and trapping wolves in Alaska. Yeah I know Alaska wolves are completely different than Washington wolves.. Again..lol
Not my buddies...
Hard to check for bullet holes when they eat and break rib, leg, face and other bones when eating, I thought you would know that wolves did that when eating kills in the winter when needing all the feed they can get, being the expert you are.
Call your Alaskan buddy, he can educate you more.
Sounds like you should venture out in the field; haven't been there in a while have you?
Over 60 days in the wilds this year and I don't mean traveling down man made roads on motorized machines. For those literal minded people, my point is, wolves are scavengers and not always the cause of death in animals.
This brings me to another point. When talking to a WDFW enforcement officer he estimated poaching takes as many animals as legal hunting in Region 3. A YPD police officer I spoke with backed this claim somewhat by telling me the dumpsters in east Yakima often have deer carcusses in them. Businesses find them regularly.. Makes one think that new "Immigrants" aren't following the hunting laws?
Post by: Cougartail on April 16, 2018, 11:15:07 AM
Didn't see that.. I stand corrected. I swore I looked up 371 and 372 in January and they were closed??? I even quit carrying my rifle in the truck.Region 3 fills all quotas except in 371 and 372 for cougars. This year those were met also which was suprising due to land ownership.
You brought up the threat to humans and used the liberal tactics, "they are dangerous" even though few people are ever killed. (AR-15s are dangerous but kill few people..better ban them!) Argue valid points or I 'll continue to but thing into prespective..
Lots of region 3 still open for Cougar hunting.....
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/cougar/
Region 3 is all units starting with the number 3.. all closed.
Wrong again.
Look at the 8th row in the link. There are 300 series units listed as OPEN
Post by: ian_padron on April 29, 2018, 11:54:06 PM
I'll put you in the non-thinking, emotional and irrational category along with all the westside liberals..Well said amigo.
Wolf kills on deer and elk, 6000 max.
Cougar kills on deer and elk, 85,000 min.
Yeah, I'm the one who isn't thinking clearly..
Do you want me to estimate bears and coyotes for you? lol
Cats are the issue in this state...and by a long shot.
Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk
Post by: Timberstalker on April 30, 2018, 04:43:22 AM
:bash:
Post by: trophyhunt on April 30, 2018, 07:03:08 AM
Yeah, wolves aren’t impacting ungulates that bad.And now permits are down 50% in some units, where is the explanation for that? Was it the horrible winter we had?? (sarcasm)! And if the wdfw can calculate wolf kills accurately , they are super human!
:bash:
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 30, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
Yeah, wolves aren’t impacting ungulates that bad.And now permits are down 50% in some units, where is the explanation for that? Was it the horrible winter we had?? (sarcasm)! And if the wdfw can calculate wolf kills accurately , they are super human!
:bash:
It's the cougars' fault. Haven't you been reading the thread? :bash:
Post by: Timberstalker on April 30, 2018, 08:10:46 AM
Yippee! WDFW just recognized a new pack in the Blues!
The “Grouse Flats Pack.”
This should help ungulate numbers, in an already stressed area.
Let’s all pick up golf.
Post by: KFhunter on April 30, 2018, 09:26:58 AM
I live in the blues...watch bulls year round from my living room.
If the Elk are suffering a harsh winter and can't keep up the extra energy needed to evade constant harassment from wolves, did the winter kill them? or did the wolves kill them?
Post by: Oh Mah on April 30, 2018, 09:34:48 AM
I'll put you in the non-thinking, emotional and irrational category along with all the westside liberals..I agree with some of your points here but your math is skewed,You didn't do any figures on wolf kills for just killing.Bears,Coyotes and Cats don't just kill for sport,Wolves do.
Wolf kills on deer and elk, 6000 max.
Cougar kills on deer and elk, 85,000 min.
Yeah, I'm the one who isn't thinking clearly..
Do you want me to estimate bears and coyotes for you? lol
Post by: KFhunter on April 30, 2018, 09:37:47 AM
oh but it's all winter kill........2016 was such a harsh winter
give me a break :rolleyes: 2016 wasn't even a hard winter
Post by: KFhunter on April 30, 2018, 09:42:48 AM
The numbers are meaningless.I agree with some of your points here but your math is skewed,You didn't do any figures on wolf kills for just killing.Bears,Coyotes and Cats don't just kill for sport,Wolves do.
Wolf kills on deer and elk, 6000 max.
Cougar kills on deer and elk, 85,000 min.
Yeah, I'm the one who isn't thinking clearly..
Do you want me to estimate bears and coyotes for you? lol
He's correct that all predators need attention, we can hunt cats, bears and coyote, we can't hunt the wolf. WDFW has an asinine cougar quota plan and restricts bear hunting far too much. We need better management of all predators and we need state driven management of wolves or full de-listing and a season put on them.
Post by: Special T on April 30, 2018, 09:54:23 AM
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Post by: KFhunter on April 30, 2018, 10:19:45 AM
They are out right now collecting and marking moose for population estimates. They have seen such increases in moose numbers they are INCREASING moose permits 20%. All moose hunting is in NE Wa where wolves are at the highest densities. Overall moose numbers are increasing though (and we all know moose are a primary food for wolves)...so I guess what you are saying is at high densities wolves alter game behavior but do not usually cause any sort of declines in game abundance?...even with lots of wolves running around up in NE Wa, you agree the primary effect is a benefit to hunters. We totally agree...the relative impact of wolves on game abundance and availability to hunters is insignificant...there will continue to be lots of deer, elk, moose hunting throughout Washington regardless of wolves. Killing them will help with depredation issues and increase social tolerance...but even if they never de-list them it will not have a substantial impact to hunting. :tup:
You were sooo right in 2014, we should have all listened to you :chuckle:
Wolves make hunting better :tup:
Post by: Timberstalker on April 30, 2018, 10:27:41 AM
Post by: Oh Mah on April 30, 2018, 10:38:28 AM
Agreed :tup: as i stated before in other threads its up to the hunters to get out and take care of the bears cougars and coyotes,none of which has net the annual quotas every where in the state.Cougar was open in several areas into this year and still open in a couple.The numbers are meaningless.I agree with some of your points here but your math is skewed,You didn't do any figures on wolf kills for just killing.Bears,Coyotes and Cats don't just kill for sport,Wolves do.
Wolf kills on deer and elk, 6000 max.
Cougar kills on deer and elk, 85,000 min.
Yeah, I'm the one who isn't thinking clearly..
Do you want me to estimate bears and coyotes for you? lol
He's correct that all predators need attention, we can hunt cats, bears and coyote, we can't hunt the wolf. WDFW has an asinine cougar quota plan and restricts bear hunting far too much. We need better management of all predators and we need state driven management of wolves or full de-listing and a season put on them.
Post by: Cougartail on April 30, 2018, 10:41:48 AM
The numbers are meaningless.I agree with some of your points here but your math is skewed,You didn't do any figures on wolf kills for just killing.Bears,Coyotes and Cats don't just kill for sport,Wolves do.
Wolf kills on deer and elk, 6000 max.
Cougar kills on deer and elk, 85,000 min.
Yeah, I'm the one who isn't thinking clearly..
Do you want me to estimate bears and coyotes for you? lol
He's correct that all predators need attention, we can hunt cats, bears and coyote, we can't hunt the wolf. WDFW has an asinine cougar quota plan and restricts bear hunting far too much. We need better management of all predators and we need state driven management of wolves or full de-listing and a season put on them.
They (wdfw) also are giving some questionable numbers on cougars. For years they used numbers around 2000 and I rarely ran into tracks. For a while they used 3500 or there about and I saw tracks everywhere. Still see tracks everywhere and they are now back to 2000??? (Being a trapper I am always looking at tracks.) A good way to lower quotas I guess?
Post by: Oh Mah on April 30, 2018, 10:43:30 AM
Post by: KFhunter on April 30, 2018, 10:47:13 AM
Now I can even ride at night :tup:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 30, 2018, 11:41:47 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 30, 2018, 11:49:34 AM
The numbers are meaningless.I agree with some of your points here but your math is skewed,You didn't do any figures on wolf kills for just killing.Bears,Coyotes and Cats don't just kill for sport,Wolves do.
Wolf kills on deer and elk, 6000 max.
Cougar kills on deer and elk, 85,000 min.
Yeah, I'm the one who isn't thinking clearly..
Do you want me to estimate bears and coyotes for you? lol
He's correct that all predators need attention, we can hunt cats, bears and coyote, we can't hunt the wolf. WDFW has an asinine cougar quota plan and restricts bear hunting far too much. We need better management of all predators and we need state driven management of wolves or full de-listing and a season put on them.
They (wdfw) also are giving some questionable numbers on cougars. For years they used numbers around 2000 and I rarely ran into tracks. For a while they used 3500 or there about and I saw tracks everywhere. Still see tracks everywhere and they are now back to 2000??? (Being a trapper I am always looking at tracks.) A good way to lower quotas I guess?
You never replied to my comment that we had enough predators without introducing a new one - Canadian Grey wolves. We weren't having a problem with our ungulate populations before they became populated in our state. We had cougars already, and bears, both at full carrying capacity. The wolves pushed the predator balance over the top. Again, when your house is on fire you don't just say to heck with it, let's add some kerosene. The wolves are the kerosene. The numbers, timeline, and evidence is all there for all of the N. Rocky states. You can continue to push your cougar narrative if you want. That doesn't mean that it isn't complete BS, because it is.
Post by: Oh Mah on April 30, 2018, 12:54:07 PM
I was watching the meeting (committee wdfw)or something like that.on tv the other night.The committee chairman was talking about the RCW pertaining to re introducing wildlife in this state and that it would be illegal to do so.I'm talking about the grizzlies here.If reintroducing grizzlies (I know they are already here)would be illegal then wolves would be the same.Is this why the dept. claims they did not bring them here?Also if it is illegal as the chairman said that would include the elk that were brought in as well as the antelope? :dunno: so confused.
Post by: Special T on April 30, 2018, 01:03:04 PM
There is a purposeful effort to protect predators, even the huntable ones.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: jackelope on April 30, 2018, 01:39:54 PM
How many deer do we think wolves kill per year here in Washington?
Post by: Oh Mah on April 30, 2018, 01:49:46 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 30, 2018, 01:59:04 PM
No one knows,But by the math of what they eat between 52 and 35 per wolf per year.That does not account for sight hunting wolves.It is well known that Wolves will kill ungulates just for sport.
So they eat 52 deer per wolf per year. What about elk? I'm not positive, but I don't think every wolf kills 1 deer and 1 elk per week. I could be wrong there I guess. I'm also not a wolf supporter, and I know I'm a little late to this particular game, but I'm fairly sure the decreased ungulate numbers probably are a huge, nasty combination of wolves, a massive quantity of lions, coyotes and bears probably killing more fawns than anything, weather, habitat loss... I just don't believe there are enough wolves in the state to be the sole reason for our crappy ungulate numbers.
Post by: Oh Mah on April 30, 2018, 02:10:55 PM
you are also correct it is not just the wolves,hunters need to take responsibility also.go out and tag a cougar or a bear.go out and getsum coyotes,every hunter. :twocents:
Post by: KFhunter on April 30, 2018, 04:08:50 PM
No one knows,But by the math of what they eat between 52 and 35 per wolf per year.That does not account for sight hunting wolves.It is well known that Wolves will kill ungulates just for sport.
So they eat 52 deer per wolf per year. What about elk? I'm not positive, but I don't think every wolf kills 1 deer and 1 elk per week. I could be wrong there I guess. I'm also not a wolf supporter, and I know I'm a little late to this particular game, but I'm fairly sure the decreased ungulate numbers probably are a huge, nasty combination of wolves, a massive quantity of lions, coyotes and bears probably killing more fawns than anything, weather, habitat loss... I just don't believe there are enough wolves in the state to be the sole reason for our crappy ungulate numbers.
Wolves will kill a lot more if they have a grizz or three dogging them, stealing kills. That's when wolves have to work a bit harder once the snow's off.
Post by: Humptulips on April 30, 2018, 04:32:58 PM
I would not discount Cougartails description of the cougar situation.
I live here on the Olympic Peninsula and have put in a lot of time and miles between trapping, hunting and earlier chasing cats with the hounds for 50+ years.
We do not have wolves here yet so any problems can't be blamed on them and yet I have witnessed a downward spiral of the ungulate population on the OP. Every year I think it can't get worse and it does. No wolves so what to blame? I call BS on those who would say habitat. The clearcuts grow up, sure , but there are more and even in areas where there is logging game is scarce.
This winter I was trapping up on the Wynooche and trapped through a week of perfect tracking snow. Out everyday and making a point to look for tracks. Never saw one deer track. Did see two elk. I also saw cougar tracks daily. Cougar never used to be interested in coming to bait. Now they are bothering my traps everyday. Even caught one in the act of dragging one trap off. Beaver are so few I feel ashamed to trap one and contrary to maybe other areas the coyote population is way down. I have seen signs where cougar do take coyotes and for sure cougar will key on and decimate beaver.
So what else is there driving deer and elk numbers down? Poaching? I get into some areas where there is no access and no brush pickers. If it was poaching these places should be islands of game but they are not. Hair loss syndrome? I have not seen a deer afflicted with it in several years.
I read on here how bad it is in parts of the E side but E side hunters don't have a monopoly on crappy hunting. I saw 5 deer last deer season in 5 days hunting and even though I am slower then I once was I am not the guy to sit around the PU and complain. I get out and hunt.
Is it just a coincidence that things started spiraling down about 20 years ago after I-655 passed?
I remember an old line from a Sherlock Holmes story, something to the effect that when you have eliminated all other possibilities what ever is left no matter how unlikely is the culprit.
I would never say that wolves are not of major concern because regardless of what some may try to sell you predation is additive.
At least where I live too many cougar are the main problem and I would even go a step farther and say they are the problem, period, full stop!
Post by: jackelope on April 30, 2018, 05:28:05 PM
Likewise, I don't think the wolves kill a lot of deer in the southeast part of the state. Deer densities are low. See above. Speaking of the southeast....remember my trail camera pictures I posted 3-5 years ago? A dozen elk standing in a field? Huge bulls? A friend had that tag 2 years ago. They saw 1 immature bull and they hunted the entire season, bell to bell. There's not enough wolves there to make a difference. Where did they go?
Too many factors. Too many different locations. Habitat loss is a factor...maybe not in 1 specific area, but it's a factor. Bad winters, maybe not the primary cause but it's a contributor. Mountain lions...they're bad. Etc Etc Etc.
Maybe the passion on the wolf topic is blocking the overall picture for some.
:dunno:
Post by: buglebrush on April 30, 2018, 05:38:31 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 30, 2018, 05:41:26 PM
Years of no hound hunting for cats is having a serious impact. In the NE wolves are the straw that broke the camels back, but the overabundance of cats is a huge concern as well.
Agreed fully.
Post by: KFhunter on April 30, 2018, 05:42:49 PM
Post by: HookedOnQuack on April 30, 2018, 05:43:10 PM
I’m no wolf supporter but honestly if your game department would manage them it would eventually even out. 10 years ago there was going to be no elk left in Idaho in 10 years. Just pulled some trail cams while setting up bait and low and behold, elk. Wolves aren’t going anywhere. Your going to need to learn how to hunt with them and get your game department managing them. :twocents:You are correct, ive hunted 10A for many years and when we first started we would see elk everywhere! Then the wolves took off and elk we nowhere, in the last few years since the wolves have been hunted the elk have slowly made their way back. Unfortunately the same jacka$$ that ruined Idaho came here and did the same! i just hope the new person has some common sense and is able to bring the numbers back up just like they have in Idaho
Post by: trophyhunt on April 30, 2018, 05:46:51 PM
Do you think it will ever be the same? Like before the wolves?I’m no wolf supporter but honestly if your game department would manage them it would eventually even out. 10 years ago there was going to be no elk left in Idaho in 10 years. Just pulled some trail cams while setting up bait and low and behold, elk. Wolves aren’t going anywhere. Your going to need to learn how to hunt with them and get your game department managing them. :twocents:You are correct, ive hunted 10A for many years and when we first started we would see elk everywhere! Then the wolves took off and elk we nowhere, in the last few years since the wolves have been hunted the elk have slowly made their way back. Unfortunately the same jacka$$ that ruined Idaho came here and did the same! i just hope the new person has some common sense and is able to bring the numbers back up just like they have in Idaho
Post by: idahohuntr on April 30, 2018, 06:22:06 PM
find a bunch of elk laying dead in the snow I bet a bunch of them have bite marks, wolves will drag them down and they die in the snow then off to the next one that didn't run far due to low energy reserves.This just demonstrates your ignorance on the topic...or your desire to ignore major factors affecting wildlife abundance so you can exaggerate other causes of decline.
oh but it's all winter kill........2016 was such a harsh winter
give me a break :rolleyes: 2016 wasn't even a hard winter
https://www.gohunt.com/read/life/will-the-winter-kill-of-2017-be-one-for-the-records#gs.8Sk_rGw
https://idfg.idaho.gov/press/winter-kill-was-less-expected-mule-deer-and-elk-fared-better
http://wyo4news.com/news/99-fawn-mortality-observed-wyoming-range-mule-deer-project/
Post by: KFhunter on April 30, 2018, 06:59:07 PM
Quote
This just demonstrates your ignorance on the topic...or your desire to ignore major factors affecting wildlife abundance so you can exaggerate other causes of decline.
No, it shows where you ignore depredation that affects wildlife abundance and instead exaggerate other non-depredation causes of decline. (habitat, winter kill, etc)
You've been preaching tired old mantra ever since your arrival on HW, I told you 5-6 years ago that wolves will prove me correct and we'll see a marked decline in hunter opportunity.
You said wolves will make us all better hunters....
Here we are, you can't be a "better hunter" if you can't get a tag.
Post by: Bob33 on April 30, 2018, 07:28:05 PM
The number of "Any Moose" permits has been stable since 2012.QuoteThis just demonstrates your ignorance on the topic...or your desire to ignore major factors affecting wildlife abundance so you can exaggerate other causes of decline.
No, it shows where you ignore depredation that affects wildlife abundance and instead exaggerate other non-depredation causes of decline. (habitat, winter kill, etc)
You've been preaching tired old mantra ever since your arrival on HW, I told you 5-6 years ago that wolves will prove me correct and we'll see a marked decline in hunter opportunity.
You said wolves will make us all better hunters....
Here we are, you can't be a "better hunter" if you can't get a tag.
Post by: KFhunter on April 30, 2018, 07:34:17 PM
Post by: Bob33 on April 30, 2018, 07:41:01 PM
You forgot the one moose for the youth drawIt's antlerless. The permit data is for "any moose" permits..
Post by: KFhunter on April 30, 2018, 07:47:48 PM
Post by: Caseyd on April 30, 2018, 08:05:25 PM
I don't think it's possible to point the finger at wolves anywhere specifically. I think there are a metric crap ton of things, all contributing to the problem at hand. It's safe to say that the wolves don't kill a lot of elk in NE WA. I'm sure they kill some, but due to low elk densities, they don't kill a lot of elk(obviously). More deer and moose and grouse and rabbits and whatever else they happen on.
Likewise, I don't think the wolves kill a lot of deer in the southeast part of the state. Deer densities are low. See above. Speaking of the southeast....remember my trail camera pictures I posted 3-5 years ago? A dozen elk standing in a field? Huge bulls? A friend had that tag 2 years ago. They saw 1 immature bull and they hunted the entire season, bell to bell. There's not enough wolves there to make a difference. Where did they go?
Too many factors. Too many different locations. Habitat loss is a factor...maybe not in 1 specific area, but it's a factor. Bad winters, maybe not the primary cause but it's a contributor. Mountain lions...they're bad. Etc Etc Etc.
Maybe the passion on the wolf topic is blocking the overall picture for some.
:dunno:
Many would argue there’s plenty around those parts. They make their way all the way to the river. Constant sightings north of town out in the fields where they can put a hurt on since small pockets of protected coverage.
Post by: Cougartail on April 30, 2018, 08:32:48 PM
No wolves, bear or deep snow in the sagebrush so I know who the culprit is. (and food sources are stable, orchards down below.)
The only up side is quail and cottontail numbers definitely increase when the cougars are around.
Post by: HookedOnQuack on May 01, 2018, 06:00:32 AM
Do you think it will ever be the same? Like before the wolves?I’m no wolf supporter but honestly if your game department would manage them it would eventually even out. 10 years ago there was going to be no elk left in Idaho in 10 years. Just pulled some trail cams while setting up bait and low and behold, elk. Wolves aren’t going anywhere. Your going to need to learn how to hunt with them and get your game department managing them. :twocents:You are correct, ive hunted 10A for many years and when we first started we would see elk everywhere! Then the wolves took off and elk we nowhere, in the last few years since the wolves have been hunted the elk have slowly made their way back. Unfortunately the same jacka$$ that ruined Idaho came here and did the same! i just hope the new person has some common sense and is able to bring the numbers back up just like they have in Idaho
I think we both know the answer to this Trophy! Was just agreeing that if WA would ever allow them to be hunted (i dont believe we will ever get that chance) it would help the populations rebound. Im just basing this on what i have personally seen in Idaho, i know you have been in 10A yourself quite a bit and i think you would agree that as soon as the hunting pressure started for the wolves they became less concentrated in certain areas and the ungulate numbers started to increase
Post by: trophyhunt on May 01, 2018, 06:12:51 AM
completely disagree, there are no elk left in 10a...... :chuckle:.Do you think it will ever be the same? Like before the wolves?I’m no wolf supporter but honestly if your game department would manage them it would eventually even out. 10 years ago there was going to be no elk left in Idaho in 10 years. Just pulled some trail cams while setting up bait and low and behold, elk. Wolves aren’t going anywhere. Your going to need to learn how to hunt with them and get your game department managing them. :twocents:You are correct, ive hunted 10A for many years and when we first started we would see elk everywhere! Then the wolves took off and elk we nowhere, in the last few years since the wolves have been hunted the elk have slowly made their way back. Unfortunately the same jacka$$ that ruined Idaho came here and did the same! i just hope the new person has some common sense and is able to bring the numbers back up just like they have in Idaho
I think we both know the answer to this Trophy! Was just agreeing that if WA would ever allow them to be hunted (i dont believe we will ever get that chance) it would help the populations rebound. Im just basing this on what i have personally seen in Idaho, i know you have been in 10A yourself quite a bit and i think you would agree that as soon as the hunting pressure started for the wolves they became less concentrated in certain areas and the ungulate numbers started to increase
Post by: jackmaster on May 01, 2018, 06:38:17 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 01, 2018, 07:45:26 AM
Cougartail, wasn't Idahos numbers declining so fast that your state was losing out of state hunters and their money so your govenor declared war on wolves? Isn't that when the numbers in idaho stabalized ? If I remember corectly the moose and elk numbers were in big trouble :dunno:
I'm sure it was just cougars and bears. You've been reading propaganda again, haven't you JM? :chuckle:
Post by: trophyhunt on May 01, 2018, 08:04:32 AM
Cougartail, wasn't Idahos numbers declining so fast that your state was losing out of state hunters and their money so your govenor declared war on wolves? Isn't that when the numbers in idaho stabalized ? If I remember corectly the moose and elk numbers were in big trouble :dunno::yeah: 100%
Post by: jackmaster on May 01, 2018, 08:06:49 AM
haha, must have been :chuckle: must had a moment of weakness and got sucked in by the liberal propaganda machine :chuckle:Cougartail, wasn't Idahos numbers declining so fast that your state was losing out of state hunters and their money so your govenor declared war on wolves? Isn't that when the numbers in idaho stabalized ? If I remember corectly the moose and elk numbers were in big trouble :dunno:
I'm sure it was just cougars and bears. You've been reading propaganda again, haven't you JM? :chuckle:
Post by: jackelope on May 01, 2018, 08:23:46 AM
I don't think it's possible to point the finger at wolves anywhere specifically. I think there are a metric crap ton of things, all contributing to the problem at hand. It's safe to say that the wolves don't kill a lot of elk in NE WA. I'm sure they kill some, but due to low elk densities, they don't kill a lot of elk(obviously). More deer and moose and grouse and rabbits and whatever else they happen on.
Likewise, I don't think the wolves kill a lot of deer in the southeast part of the state. Deer densities are low. See above. Speaking of the southeast....remember my trail camera pictures I posted 3-5 years ago? A dozen elk standing in a field? Huge bulls? A friend had that tag 2 years ago. They saw 1 immature bull and they hunted the entire season, bell to bell. There's not enough wolves there to make a difference. Where did they go?
Too many factors. Too many different locations. Habitat loss is a factor...maybe not in 1 specific area, but it's a factor. Bad winters, maybe not the primary cause but it's a contributor. Mountain lions...they're bad. Etc Etc Etc.
Maybe the passion on the wolf topic is blocking the overall picture for some.
:dunno:
Many would argue there’s plenty around those parts. They make their way all the way to the river. Constant sightings north of town out in the fields where they can put a hurt on since small pockets of protected coverage.
Plenty of wolves? I'm sure there are some. But I'd wager they didn't kill all the elk in that GMU.
Post by: Cougartail on May 01, 2018, 09:56:13 AM
Cougartail, wasn't Idahos numbers declining so fast that your state was losing out of state hunters and their money so your govenor declared war on wolves? Isn't that when the numbers in idaho stabalized ? If I remember corectly the moose and elk numbers were in big trouble :dunno:
I'm sure it was just cougars and bears. You've been reading propaganda again, haven't you JM? :chuckle:
You guys are so smart.. :chuckle: First off, with all the wolf hating windbags on the internet why has Idaho never filled their wolf harvest quota? :bash: :bash: :bash: Typing is easier than leaving the comfort of your home and truck? :chuckle:
Now for a history lesson.. Prior to the late 90s in Idaho the Lion harvest was on average 800 to 900 cats per year. After 1998 the average has been 400 to 500 cats per year. During the post 1998 era they added 1000 wolves roughly. Now, how many cats were added in that 20 years of reduced lion harvest, on average of 400 per year? (1998 to 2018)
Simplistic explanations of complex population dynamics come from simple minds.. Do wolves reduce dear & elk populations, yes. Are they the largest contributor to the problem in Washington.. not even close. In Idaho, more so but still not the major cause of the decline.
Now grab your red capes and baskets and head over to grandma's house... it will be ok.. I promise!!!! :chuckle:
Post by: Special T on May 01, 2018, 10:29:26 AM
From your statement then the lack of harvest of all predators has contributed to the decline. As such they all need more management.Cougartail, wasn't Idahos numbers declining so fast that your state was losing out of state hunters and their money so your govenor declared war on wolves? Isn't that when the numbers in idaho stabalized ? If I remember corectly the moose and elk numbers were in big trouble :dunno:
I'm sure it was just cougars and bears. You've been reading propaganda again, haven't you JM? :chuckle:
You guys are so smart.. :chuckle: First off, with all the wolf hating windbags on the internet why has Idaho never filled their wolf harvest quota? :bash: :bash: :bash: Typing is easier than leaving the comfort of your home and truck? :chuckle:
Now for a history lesson.. Prior to the late 90s in Idaho the Lion harvest was on average 800 to 900 cats per year. After 1998 the average has been 400 to 500 cats per year. During the post 1998 era they added 1000 wolves roughly. Now, how many cats were added in that 20 years of reduced lion harvest, on average of 400 per year? (1998 to 2018)
Simplistic explanations of complex population dynamics come from simple minds.. Do wolves reduce dear & elk populations, yes. Are they the largest contributor to the problem in Washington.. not even close. In Idaho, more so but still not the major cause of the decline.
Now grab your red capes and baskets and head over to grandma's house... it will be ok.. I promise!!!! :chuckle:
As usual us sportsmen are arguing the details and ignoring the broad facts.
The issue needs to be how do we in crease harvest of all predators in the areas most effected.?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: Cougartail on May 01, 2018, 10:36:06 AM
.
The issue needs to be how do we in crease harvest of all predators in the areas most effected.?
:yeah: And get some teeth in our poaching laws..
Post by: Special T on May 01, 2018, 10:39:08 AM
Ironic that it is the political will that fails sportsmen... not much science/logic....
The issue needs to be how do we in crease harvest of all predators in the areas most effected.?
:yeah: And get some teeth in our poaching laws..
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: jackelope on May 01, 2018, 10:43:28 AM
From your statement then the lack of harvest of all predators has contributed to the decline. As such they all need more management.Cougartail, wasn't Idahos numbers declining so fast that your state was losing out of state hunters and their money so your govenor declared war on wolves? Isn't that when the numbers in idaho stabalized ? If I remember corectly the moose and elk numbers were in big trouble :dunno:
I'm sure it was just cougars and bears. You've been reading propaganda again, haven't you JM? :chuckle:
You guys are so smart.. :chuckle: First off, with all the wolf hating windbags on the internet why has Idaho never filled their wolf harvest quota? :bash: :bash: :bash: Typing is easier than leaving the comfort of your home and truck? :chuckle:
Now for a history lesson.. Prior to the late 90s in Idaho the Lion harvest was on average 800 to 900 cats per year. After 1998 the average has been 400 to 500 cats per year. During the post 1998 era they added 1000 wolves roughly. Now, how many cats were added in that 20 years of reduced lion harvest, on average of 400 per year? (1998 to 2018)
Simplistic explanations of complex population dynamics come from simple minds.. Do wolves reduce dear & elk populations, yes. Are they the largest contributor to the problem in Washington.. not even close. In Idaho, more so but still not the major cause of the decline.
Now grab your red capes and baskets and head over to grandma's house... it will be ok.. I promise!!!! :chuckle:
As usual us sportsmen are arguing the details and ignoring the broad facts.
The issue needs to be how do we in crease harvest of all predators in the areas most effected.?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
:yeah:
Thank God someone sees it. The overall problem is really obvious to me. It's not JUST wolves. If you think it is, you've got blinders on.
Post by: Special T on May 01, 2018, 11:11:30 AM
All if this shows the trend of increasing predator numbers and protecting them. The state won't help us so how are we going to help ourselves?
Inside the system... organize sportsmen orgs.
Outside the system... predator derbies, private funded bounties, greater emphis on sport hunting predators, and trapping.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: jackmaster on May 01, 2018, 11:37:22 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on May 01, 2018, 11:40:12 AM
This is not an accurate portrayal of the facts. Unmanaged wolves certainly had some impact on the perception of hunting quality in Idaho, but the primary factor in lower non-resident hunters was a major NR tag price increase at the same time as a major recession. While some will deny the impact of weather, I will also remind folks at the same time as these price increases, and the same time as wolves still being ESA listed, we had a pretty hard winter in '08. I remember getting 37 or 39 inches of snow in one 24 hour period in that winter. The combo of wolves, price/recession, and hard winters taking a toll on game is why NR hunters were low for several years starting in 2009. About 2013-15 folks started to see good increases in game numbers...and with a substantially improved economy and no (or minimal) price increases...we are back to seeing NR tags sell out. Anyways, just passing along in case facts are of interest to folks.Cougartail, wasn't Idahos numbers declining so fast that your state was losing out of state hunters and their money so your govenor declared war on wolves? Isn't that when the numbers in idaho stabalized ? If I remember corectly the moose and elk numbers were in big trouble :dunno::yeah: 100%
Post by: KFhunter on May 01, 2018, 11:45:24 AM
From your statement then the lack of harvest of all predators has contributed to the decline. As such they all need more management.Cougartail, wasn't Idahos numbers declining so fast that your state was losing out of state hunters and their money so your govenor declared war on wolves? Isn't that when the numbers in idaho stabalized ? If I remember corectly the moose and elk numbers were in big trouble :dunno:
I'm sure it was just cougars and bears. You've been reading propaganda again, haven't you JM? :chuckle:
You guys are so smart.. :chuckle: First off, with all the wolf hating windbags on the internet why has Idaho never filled their wolf harvest quota? :bash: :bash: :bash: Typing is easier than leaving the comfort of your home and truck? :chuckle:
Now for a history lesson.. Prior to the late 90s in Idaho the Lion harvest was on average 800 to 900 cats per year. After 1998 the average has been 400 to 500 cats per year. During the post 1998 era they added 1000 wolves roughly. Now, how many cats were added in that 20 years of reduced lion harvest, on average of 400 per year? (1998 to 2018)
Simplistic explanations of complex population dynamics come from simple minds.. Do wolves reduce dear & elk populations, yes. Are they the largest contributor to the problem in Washington.. not even close. In Idaho, more so but still not the major cause of the decline.
Now grab your red capes and baskets and head over to grandma's house... it will be ok.. I promise!!!! :chuckle:
As usual us sportsmen are arguing the details and ignoring the broad facts.
The issue needs to be how do we in crease harvest of all predators in the areas most effected.?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
:yeah:
Thank God someone sees it. The overall problem is really obvious to me. It's not JUST wolves. If you think it is, you've got blinders on.
Most of the Cougar quota's for WA is fulfilled, hunters have done their part in that regard. It's not OUR fault the quota's are too small and pathetic.
We could kill more coyotes, We could kill more fall bears.
What we need to do is pressure WDFW through emails to our local elected officials to increase the Cougar quota's and spring bear draws by A LOT!
We need to pressure WDFW to revisit the wolf plan, de-list, and create a hunting season on them.
We need to be involved, and part of that is educating other hunters on this very forum, this forum has generated a lot of letters to our representatives.
Post by: jackelope on May 01, 2018, 11:47:42 AM
I don't think ONE person has said that it has nothing to do with cats, bear and coyotes, the FACT is adding wolves to the mix AFTER they had been eradicated by MUCH smarter people obviously has added serious problems to our heards, especially with the already huge amount of habitat loss over the last 30 years, my BIG question is what do you geniuses say we do about it? I mean we lost trapping, which was the ONLY method to truly control bobcat and coyotes, we lose baiting which was the most effective method to control bear then we lose hound huntn which was the ONLY method that kept ALL of them in check!! I do my part, I predator hunt as much as possible and calling on the west side isn't and easy area to call in, SO my BIG question is what do we do??
Special T just posted it above. The problem with hunters is they spend too much time arguing and bickering between themselves and don't come together as a collective group and act. Folks don't realize there are groups of hunters and like minded individuals out there trying to do something but they get no support from the community. Go to a wolf meeting and you'll see what I'm talking about. And I'm just as guilty as the next guy....don't get me wrong. I am curious who has done anything to support SCI, Washingtonians for Wildlife Conservation, etc. Who in this thread that is complaining about the current situation has actually done anything? Like I said I can't really talk, but I have donated time to SCI helping at the banquet in the last few months. It's not a lot but it's better than nothing.
You can shoot all the coyotes you want, but you know for every one you kill, there's another dozen still not too far away killing fawns.
Post by: jackelope on May 01, 2018, 11:49:02 AM
From your statement then the lack of harvest of all predators has contributed to the decline. As such they all need more management.Cougartail, wasn't Idahos numbers declining so fast that your state was losing out of state hunters and their money so your govenor declared war on wolves? Isn't that when the numbers in idaho stabalized ? If I remember corectly the moose and elk numbers were in big trouble :dunno:
I'm sure it was just cougars and bears. You've been reading propaganda again, haven't you JM? :chuckle:
You guys are so smart.. :chuckle: First off, with all the wolf hating windbags on the internet why has Idaho never filled their wolf harvest quota? :bash: :bash: :bash: Typing is easier than leaving the comfort of your home and truck? :chuckle:
Now for a history lesson.. Prior to the late 90s in Idaho the Lion harvest was on average 800 to 900 cats per year. After 1998 the average has been 400 to 500 cats per year. During the post 1998 era they added 1000 wolves roughly. Now, how many cats were added in that 20 years of reduced lion harvest, on average of 400 per year? (1998 to 2018)
Simplistic explanations of complex population dynamics come from simple minds.. Do wolves reduce dear & elk populations, yes. Are they the largest contributor to the problem in Washington.. not even close. In Idaho, more so but still not the major cause of the decline.
Now grab your red capes and baskets and head over to grandma's house... it will be ok.. I promise!!!! :chuckle:
As usual us sportsmen are arguing the details and ignoring the broad facts.
The issue needs to be how do we in crease harvest of all predators in the areas most effected.?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
:yeah:
Thank God someone sees it. The overall problem is really obvious to me. It's not JUST wolves. If you think it is, you've got blinders on.
Most of the Cougar quota's for WA is fulfilled, hunters have done their part in that regard. It's not OUR fault the quota's are too small and pathetic.
We could kill more coyotes, We could kill more fall bears.
What we need to do is pressure WDFW through emails to our local elected officials to increase the Cougar quota's and spring bear draws by A LOT!
We need to pressure WDFW to revisit the wolf plan, de-list, and create a hunting season on them.
We need to be involved, and part of that is educating other hunters on this very forum, this forum has generated a lot of letters to our representatives.
Do you know there are wildlife org's in our state already doing that? They need our help but they're not getting it.
Post by: KFhunter on May 01, 2018, 11:54:48 AM
This is not an accurate portrayal of the facts. Unmanaged wolves certainly had some impact on the perception of hunting quality in Idaho, but the primary factor in lower non-resident hunters was a major NR tag price increase at the same time as a major recession. While some will deny the impact of weather, I will also remind folks at the same time as these price increases, and the same time as wolves still being ESA listed, we had a pretty hard winter in '08. I remember getting 37 or 39 inches of snow in one 24 hour period in that winter. The combo of wolves, price/recession, and hard winters taking a toll on game is why NR hunters were low for several years starting in 2009. About 2013-15 folks started to see good increases in game numbers...and with a substantially improved economy and no (or minimal) price increases...we are back to seeing NR tags sell out. Anyways, just passing along in case facts are of interest to folks.Cougartail, wasn't Idahos numbers declining so fast that your state was losing out of state hunters and their money so your govenor declared war on wolves? Isn't that when the numbers in idaho stabalized ? If I remember corectly the moose and elk numbers were in big trouble :dunno::yeah: 100%
Recession? Weather? Fee increase? :rolleyes:
Pure D nonsence.
The fee's just increased again by more than it did 10 years ago in a lot of western states and non-res hunters are on the increase in ID (sold out as you say) especially hunters from WA where our hunting quality is tanking. So ya, the big fee increases in WY/MT/CO are really driving away hunters :rolleyes: ID added a new depredation fee but are doing a price lock deal which is cool.
We haven't had a hard winter in years and neither has ID, we've had a bunch of mild winters where game SHOULD have increased (and did in ID, where they control wolves) and we've had a few 'normal' winters. We haven't had a hard winter in many years. Even by your articles posted a few back the cow survival rate was 99% and calf survival rates were 50% or something, but it failed to address what was killing the calves. *hint* it wasn't the snow >:(
Facts are a fickle thing, so easy to manipulate.
Post by: idahohuntr on May 01, 2018, 12:08:52 PM
I'm not sure if you are lying or just completely incompetent. NR tag and license fees in Idaho have in no way "increased more than they did 10 years ago". Deer tags, elk tags, and hunting licenses cost the same today as they did in 2009. But the economy is booming now...again though, my statements were directed to those interested in facts...not folks who are hell bent on blaming all of life's problems on wolves.This is not an accurate portrayal of the facts. Unmanaged wolves certainly had some impact on the perception of hunting quality in Idaho, but the primary factor in lower non-resident hunters was a major NR tag price increase at the same time as a major recession. While some will deny the impact of weather, I will also remind folks at the same time as these price increases, and the same time as wolves still being ESA listed, we had a pretty hard winter in '08. I remember getting 37 or 39 inches of snow in one 24 hour period in that winter. The combo of wolves, price/recession, and hard winters taking a toll on game is why NR hunters were low for several years starting in 2009. About 2013-15 folks started to see good increases in game numbers...and with a substantially improved economy and no (or minimal) price increases...we are back to seeing NR tags sell out. Anyways, just passing along in case facts are of interest to folks.Cougartail, wasn't Idahos numbers declining so fast that your state was losing out of state hunters and their money so your govenor declared war on wolves? Isn't that when the numbers in idaho stabalized ? If I remember corectly the moose and elk numbers were in big trouble :dunno::yeah: 100%
Recession? Weather? Fee increase? :rolleyes:
Pure D nonsence.
The fee's just increased again by more than it did 10 years ago and non-res hunters are on the increase in ID (sold out as you say) especially hunters from WA where our hunting quality is tanking. So ya, the big fee increases are really driving away hunters :rolleyes:
We haven't had a hard winter in years and neither has ID, we've had a bunch of mild winters where game SHOULD have increased (and did in ID, where they control wolves) and we've had a few 'normal' winters. We haven't had a hard winter in many years. Even by your articles posted a few back the cow survival rate was 99% and calf survival rates were 50% or something, but it failed to address what was killing the calves. *hint* it wasn't the snow >:(
Facts are a fickle thing, so easy to manipulate.
Post by: KFhunter on May 01, 2018, 12:09:31 PM
Quote
Do you know there are wildlife org's in our state already doing that? They need our help but they're not getting it.
We've had this discussion on SCI where I got schooled on what they actually do, I always thought they were rich elitists but happy I was wrong, still; I can't be the only one thinking that.
I don't really need a .org to work on habitat in my spare time, I already work on habitat. As I've said elsewhere I plant a lot of feed, control predators, I protect a big chunk of riparian area where I should be grazing cattle but don't, I leave corners and strips, I plan oat, alfalfa, Triticale and 4way grass. I used to have 50+ deer each night in my fields but in the last 10 years I'm lucky to see 4 or 5 and I'm really lucky if 1 or 2 fawns last the first year. Cats come down and wipe one or two out and I'm back to a couple doe's. No one hunts them, if a buck or two comes in I might let a youth hunt one so a non-resident buck (big one) has a better chance at covering them. The only thing I've been able to really help is birds, I'm fixing to get pheasant going soon cause man I'd love to hunt wild pheasant here. I got a lot of quail now, didn't have a single bird 15 years ago, now they're thick. I control skunks and that helps the nesting quail.
I plan to join RMEF again and SCI in the near future, but I think I do enough labor :chuckle:
Post by: KFhunter on May 01, 2018, 12:16:41 PM
Quote
I'm not sure if you are lying or just completely incompetent. NR tag and license fees in Idaho have in no way "increased more than they did 10 years ago"
I suppose you're right if you're doing the price lock thing :chuckle: but you get to pay the depredation fee. I was mistaken though, it's MT and WY and some other western states with the bigger non-res fee increase
my bad, but you don't need to be so inflammatory about it. I edited it, so thanks for informing us all that ID hasn't increased their fees much, should draw even more WA hunters as our quality declines more and more.
Post by: Ridgeratt on May 01, 2018, 12:16:52 PM
QuoteDo you know there are wildlife org's in our state already doing that? They need our help but they're not getting it.
We've had this discussion on SCI where I got schooled on what they actually do, I always thought they were rich elitists but happy I was wrong, still; I can't be the only one thinking that.
I don't really need a .org to work on habitat in my spare time, I already work on habitat. As I've said elsewhere I plant a lot of feed, control predators, I protect a big chunk of riparian area where I should be grazing cattle but don't, I leave corners and strips, I plan oat, alfalfa, Triticale and 4way grass. I used to have 50+ deer each night in my fields but in the last 10 years I'm lucky to see 4 or 5 and I'm really lucky if 1 or 2 fawns last the first year. Cats come down and wipe one or two out and I'm back to a couple doe's. No one hunts them, if a buck or two comes in I might let a youth hunt one so a non-resident buck (big one) has a better chance at covering them. The only thing I've been able to really help is birds, I'm fixing to get pheasant going soon cause man I'd love to hunt wild pheasant here. I got a lot of quail now, didn't have a single bird 15 years ago, now they're thick. I control skunks and that helps the nesting quail.
I plan to join RMEF again and SCI in the near future, but I think I do enough labor :chuckle:
KF I believe that we have about the same amount of does. I wonder what is going to happen to them after the new whitetail shootin fest the WDFW came up with this year. :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
Post by: KFhunter on May 01, 2018, 12:21:14 PM
kill all the game to control predators? :dunno:
Post by: jackelope on May 01, 2018, 12:52:55 PM
QuoteDo you know there are wildlife org's in our state already doing that? They need our help but they're not getting it.
We've had this discussion on SCI where I got schooled on what they actually do, I always thought they were rich elitists but happy I was wrong, still; I can't be the only one thinking that.
I don't really need a .org to work on habitat in my spare time, I already work on habitat. As I've said elsewhere I plant a lot of feed, control predators, I protect a big chunk of riparian area where I should be grazing cattle but don't, I leave corners and strips, I plan oat, alfalfa, Triticale and 4way grass. I used to have 50+ deer each night in my fields but in the last 10 years I'm lucky to see 4 or 5 and I'm really lucky if 1 or 2 fawns last the first year. Cats come down and wipe one or two out and I'm back to a couple doe's. No one hunts them, if a buck or two comes in I might let a youth hunt one so a non-resident buck (big one) has a better chance at covering them. The only thing I've been able to really help is birds, I'm fixing to get pheasant going soon cause man I'd love to hunt wild pheasant here. I got a lot of quail now, didn't have a single bird 15 years ago, now they're thick. I control skunks and that helps the nesting quail.
I plan to join RMEF again and SCI in the near future, but I think I do enough labor :chuckle:
I think your habitat work is awesome. I'm jealous I don't have that kind of land to make a difference like that, but I asked that in response to your comments about putting more pressure on government, etc. This one:
Quote
Most of the Cougar quota's for WA is fulfilled, hunters have done their part in that regard. It's not OUR fault the quota's are too small and pathetic.
We could kill more coyotes, We could kill more fall bears.
What we need to do is pressure WDFW through emails to our local elected officials to increase the Cougar quota's and spring bear draws by A LOT!
We need to pressure WDFW to revisit the wolf plan, de-list, and create a hunting season on them.
We need to be involved, and part of that is educating other hunters on this very forum, this forum has generated a lot of letters to our representatives.
Post by: Branden on May 01, 2018, 01:02:08 PM
I saw 3 cougars, 1 bobcat, 4 bears, a couple coyotes, and no wolves. On the trail cams there were a couple bears, and every cam had at least one cougar. No wolves though.
I did see at least 3 different sets of wolf tracks, and a couple sets of cougar tracks.
To think the decline is because of the wolves and not all the predators combined is ignoring the facts. Also how many states have Washington’s human population and unlimited deer and elk tags? Also doe tags, 2nd deer tags, etc. None of that is helping the herds.
Also it’s extremely hard to compare Idaho and Washington since Idaho allowed hounds and bait to control bears and cats. So when wolves were introduced there the wolves didn’t have as much competition as they do in Washington where the predators aren’t managed the same. I believe the wolves would have a much larger impact on the herds in Idaho then they do in Washington just from having more competition in Washington.
Post by: jackelope on May 01, 2018, 02:07:04 PM
Post by: jasnt on May 01, 2018, 02:13:22 PM
Post by: KFhunter on May 01, 2018, 02:43:39 PM
Last time I hunted the blues I hunted them about 3 weeks straight. Also had a few trail cams up for most of the summer and didn’t check them until the hunt.
I saw 3 cougars, 1 bobcat, 4 bears, a couple coyotes, and no wolves. On the trail cams there were a couple bears, and every cam had at least one cougar. No wolves though.
I did see at least 3 different sets of wolf tracks, and a couple sets of cougar tracks.
To think the decline is because of the wolves and not all the predators combined is ignoring the facts. Also how many states have Washington’s human population and unlimited deer and elk tags? Also doe tags, 2nd deer tags, etc. None of that is helping the herds.
Also it’s extremely hard to compare Idaho and Washington since Idaho allowed hounds and bait to control bears and cats. So when wolves were introduced there the wolves didn’t have as much competition as they do in Washington where the predators aren’t managed the same. I believe the wolves would have a much larger impact on the herds in Idaho then they do in Washington just from having more competition in Washington.
To be fair this is the wolf section of the forum :chuckle:
but yes, all the predators need to be knocked back and wolves need managed.
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 01, 2018, 02:48:02 PM
From your statement then the lack of harvest of all predators has contributed to the decline. As such they all need more management.Cougartail, wasn't Idahos numbers declining so fast that your state was losing out of state hunters and their money so your govenor declared war on wolves? Isn't that when the numbers in idaho stabalized ? If I remember corectly the moose and elk numbers were in big trouble :dunno:
I'm sure it was just cougars and bears. You've been reading propaganda again, haven't you JM? :chuckle:
You guys are so smart.. :chuckle: First off, with all the wolf hating windbags on the internet why has Idaho never filled their wolf harvest quota? :bash: :bash: :bash: Typing is easier than leaving the comfort of your home and truck? :chuckle:
Now for a history lesson.. Prior to the late 90s in Idaho the Lion harvest was on average 800 to 900 cats per year. After 1998 the average has been 400 to 500 cats per year. During the post 1998 era they added 1000 wolves roughly. Now, how many cats were added in that 20 years of reduced lion harvest, on average of 400 per year? (1998 to 2018)
Simplistic explanations of complex population dynamics come from simple minds.. Do wolves reduce dear & elk populations, yes. Are they the largest contributor to the problem in Washington.. not even close. In Idaho, more so but still not the major cause of the decline.
Now grab your red capes and baskets and head over to grandma's house... it will be ok.. I promise!!!! :chuckle:
As usual us sportsmen are arguing the details and ignoring the broad facts.
The issue needs to be how do we in crease harvest of all predators in the areas most effected.?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
:yeah:
Thank God someone sees it. The overall problem is really obvious to me. It's not JUST wolves. If you think it is, you've got blinders on.
JM, I don't think you've been following the discussion closely. I personally haven't said it's just wolves, but I have said we already had a predator problem in WA because of the anti-hounds and baiting initiative passed in '96. In light of the fact that we'd already lost control of predator populations, can you really say that it was responsible to add another one that'll likely never be hunted in this state, at least until it's way too late? Cougertail is a record stuck on "it's cougars, it's cougars, it's cougars!!!" It's all of 'em and introducing wolves on top was idiotic. We should probably add grizzlies before we know the complete impact of the wolf introduction and then consider tigers and/or velociraptors. Our WDFW is completely blind to the predator problem we have and keeps throwing more fuel on the fire.
Post by: trophyhunt on May 01, 2018, 02:49:07 PM
I don’t think anyone on here thinks wolves are the only problem, but they are a new problem we’ve never had before.Last time I hunted the blues I hunted them about 3 weeks straight. Also had a few trail cams up for most of the summer and didn’t check them until the hunt.
I saw 3 cougars, 1 bobcat, 4 bears, a couple coyotes, and no wolves. On the trail cams there were a couple bears, and every cam had at least one cougar. No wolves though.
I did see at least 3 different sets of wolf tracks, and a couple sets of cougar tracks.
To think the decline is because of the wolves and not all the predators combined is ignoring the facts. Also how many states have Washington’s human population and unlimited deer and elk tags? Also doe tags, 2nd deer tags, etc. None of that is helping the herds.
Also it’s extremely hard to compare Idaho and Washington since Idaho allowed hounds and bait to control bears and cats. So when wolves were introduced there the wolves didn’t have as much competition as they do in Washington where the predators aren’t managed the same. I believe the wolves would have a much larger impact on the herds in Idaho then they do in Washington just from having more competition in Washington.
To be fair this is the wolf section of the forum :chuckle:
but yes, all the predators need to be knocked back and wolves need managed.
Post by: Cougartail on May 01, 2018, 04:15:05 PM
If you look back I said that 200 wolves weren't going to tube Elk and deer populations in the state. No trapping, no baiting no dogs and piss poor management will.
The broken record was wolves, wolves, wolves.. While most were done with going to the hills I would be just starting with coyote hunting and trapping. I watched elk and deer numbers plummet after dogs and baiting were outlawed.. along with an increase of cougar tracks.
Never saw a wolf track in my area and still haven't.
Post by: jasnt on May 01, 2018, 04:55:13 PM
Rustlers gulch in south 117 used to be one of the best whitetail hunting areas I’ve ever seen. Don’t see many deer in there anymore. Haven’t seen much at all for coyote in there last five years.
Post by: elkboy on May 01, 2018, 06:15:06 PM
Bears and coyotes kill fawns and calves, and those are species with fairly liberal harvest rules. Maybe focus on those, and see if there is a positive effect on recruitment?
Post by: jackmaster on May 01, 2018, 06:46:31 PM
:chuckle: I will be honest pman when they introduce the velorapture that's a predator I will get behind because there will be a serious deduct in hunters in the woods and I WOULD LOVE a chance to hunt a velacarapture (sp) on his own terms :tup:From your statement then the lack of harvest of all predators has contributed to the decline. As such they all need more management.Cougartail, wasn't Idahos numbers declining so fast that your state was losing out of state hunters and their money so your govenor declared war on wolves? Isn't that when the numbers in idaho stabalized ? If I remember corectly the moose and elk numbers were in big trouble :dunno:
I'm sure it was just cougars and bears. You've been reading propaganda again, haven't you JM? :chuckle:
You guys are so smart.. :chuckle: First off, with all the wolf hating windbags on the internet why has Idaho never filled their wolf harvest quota? :bash: :bash: :bash: Typing is easier than leaving the comfort of your home and truck? :chuckle:
Now for a history lesson.. Prior to the late 90s in Idaho the Lion harvest was on average 800 to 900 cats per year. After 1998 the average has been 400 to 500 cats per year. During the post 1998 era they added 1000 wolves roughly. Now, how many cats were added in that 20 years of reduced lion harvest, on average of 400 per year? (1998 to 2018)
Simplistic explanations of complex population dynamics come from simple minds.. Do wolves reduce dear & elk populations, yes. Are they the largest contributor to the problem in Washington.. not even close. In Idaho, more so but still not the major cause of the decline.
Now grab your red capes and baskets and head over to grandma's house... it will be ok.. I promise!!!! :chuckle:
As usual us sportsmen are arguing the details and ignoring the broad facts.
The issue needs to be how do we in crease harvest of all predators in the areas most effected.?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
:yeah:
Thank God someone sees it. The overall problem is really obvious to me. It's not JUST wolves. If you think it is, you've got blinders on.
JM, I don't think you've been following the discussion closely. I personally haven't said it's just wolves, but I have said we already had a predator problem in WA because of the anti-hounds and baiting initiative passed in '96. In light of the fact that we'd already lost control of predator populations, can you really say that it was responsible to add another one that'll likely never be hunted in this state, at least until it's way too late? Cougertail is a record stuck on "it's cougars, it's cougars, it's cougars!!!" It's all of 'em and introducing wolves on top was idiotic. We should probably add grizzlies before we know the complete impact of the wolf introduction and then consider tigers and/or velociraptors. Our WDFW is completely blind to the predator problem we have and keeps throwing more fuel on the fire.
Post by: trophyhunt on May 01, 2018, 07:14:17 PM
Post by: buglebrush on May 01, 2018, 10:38:20 PM
Haven’t had hound hunting or baiting for bears and cats for around 20 years. Everyone agrees that ALL predators are a problem, so why all of a sudden are the numbers of deer elk and moose dropping? We’ve had a couple easy winters, had enough elk just a few years ago to have a ridiculous amount of special permits. The one difference in the past few years is, guess what, wolves! Adding the wolves have certainly had a negative impact on our herds, FACT or FICTION ?? Simple question
Because Wolves are the tipping point. Read Malcom Gladwell. Relatively small changes that push someone past a tipping point have enormous and profound impacts.
Wolves are the tipping point for Western ungulates. Wolf apologists can choose to prevaricate all they wish, but it doesn't change the facts.
Post by: Oh Mah on May 01, 2018, 10:56:18 PM
Post by: headshot5 on May 02, 2018, 07:24:55 AM
Now consider that honey hole analogy and apply it to the state of Washington. As soon as wolves move into an area, there is nothing you can do to reverse the effects because as regular citizens our hands are legally tied.
Post by: buglebrush on May 02, 2018, 10:37:43 AM
I disagree, :yeah: that's like saying that 40% are killed by coyotes 30% by cougars 10% by bears but the 20% that are killed by wolves are the problem. :dunno:
I don't think you understand a tipping point.
Post by: Special T on May 02, 2018, 11:07:38 AM
The straw the broke the camels back. 2cI disagree, :yeah: that's like saying that 40% are killed by coyotes 30% by cougars 10% by bears but the 20% that are killed by wolves are the problem. :dunno:
I don't think you understand a tipping point.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: Oh Mah on May 02, 2018, 05:53:49 PM
You're not seeing the forest thru the tree's
anyone else got more?
Also if you want to get technical the biggest problem is cars and i think we are seeing this state doing something about that.Are they building overpasses in Idaho?
Post by: KFhunter on May 02, 2018, 06:50:02 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on May 02, 2018, 08:00:58 PM
Post by: Timberstalker on May 02, 2018, 08:20:35 PM
Wolves aren't a small problem in regions hit hardest by them, statewide they lag behind mt. lions for total deer killed sure, but in regions where wolves have a strong foot hold it's not "a small problem". If you happen to live or hunt in those area's you'd be on here saying they're a very big problem.
Valid point!
Post by: Oh Mah on May 02, 2018, 09:01:51 PM
Wolves aren't a small problem in regions hit hardest by them, statewide they lag behind mt. lions for total deer killed sure, but in regions where wolves have a strong foot hold it's not "a small problem". If you happen to live or hunt in those area's you'd be on here saying they're a very big problem.I hope this isnt aimed at me because i don't think its a small problem at all.Just pointing out the fact that all of them together need dealt with and us hunters can do a large portion of fixing it legally.Our native friends can fix part of it for us also legally.Everyone keeps bringing up quotas what about the native quotas oh wait there are none.The state puts (to us)unfair quotas because the Natives have there share if our quotas are filled or almost filled then we need to ask our fellow native hunters to step up their game and take out some of these predators with and for us. :tup:
Post by: jasnt on May 02, 2018, 09:38:35 PM
they do. Check out bucks, bills and predators on fab. It’s from the Colville tribe if I remember rightWolves aren't a small problem in regions hit hardest by them, statewide they lag behind mt. lions for total deer killed sure, but in regions where wolves have a strong foot hold it's not "a small problem". If you happen to live or hunt in those area's you'd be on here saying they're a very big problem.I hope this isnt aimed at me because i don't think its a small problem at all.Just pointing out the fact that all of them together need dealt with and us hunters can do a large portion of fixing it legally.Our native friends can fix part of it for us also legally.Everyone keeps bringing up quotas what about the native quotas oh wait there are none.The state puts (to us)unfair quotas because the Natives have there share if our quotas are filled or almost filled then we need to ask our fellow native hunters to step up their game and take out some of these predators with and for us. :tup:
Post by: buglebrush on May 02, 2018, 09:55:47 PM
Wolves aren't a small problem in regions hit hardest by them, statewide they lag behind mt. lions for total deer killed sure, but in regions where wolves have a strong foot hold it's not "a small problem". If you happen to live or hunt in those area's you'd be on here saying they're a very big problem.I hope this isnt aimed at me because i don't think its a small problem at all.Just pointing out the fact that all of them together need dealt with and us hunters can do a large portion of fixing it legally.Our native friends can fix part of it for us also legally.Everyone keeps bringing up quotas what about the native quotas oh wait there are none.The state puts (to us)unfair quotas because the Natives have there share if our quotas are filled or almost filled then we need to ask our fellow native hunters to step up their game and take out some of these predators with and for us. :tup:
Dude you expressly said it was a " small problem" in your previous comment. Your strong aversion to admitting the true impact of wolves in the future of Western hunting just keeps leaking out. How about Yellowstone? Wolves are and were the tipping point.
Post by: Oh Mah on May 02, 2018, 10:18:24 PM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on May 02, 2018, 10:22:00 PM
the wolves are a problem (all be it a small one)sorry man..... the straw that broke the camels back is small but critically important !
Post by: Oh Mah on May 02, 2018, 10:23:03 PM
#2 coyotes big problem
#3 cougars big problem
#4 bears problem
#5 wolves problem
In this order.
Post by: Oh Mah on May 02, 2018, 10:23:51 PM
Agreed i said that meant it in comparison.the wolves are a problem (all be it a small one)sorry man..... the straw that broke the camels back is small but critically important !
Post by: Oh Mah on May 02, 2018, 10:26:52 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on May 02, 2018, 10:33:49 PM
Years of no hound hunting for cats is having a serious impact. In the NE wolves are the straw that broke the camels back, but the overabundance of cats is a huge concern as well.Your argument here is muted by the fact that the cougar quotas are being filled every year according to some of the members on here.If the quotas were higher we could argue more clearly that hounds were needed but as long as the dept. keeps the quotas low we can't show the need for hounds. :bash:
Post by: buglebrush on May 03, 2018, 01:28:52 AM
#1 auto huge problem
#2 coyotes big problem
#3 cougars big problem
#4 bears problem
#5 wolves problem
In this order.
The idea that Autos are problem #1 and Coyotes #2 is laughable and out of touch in the extreme.
Post by: Oh Mah on May 03, 2018, 01:35:16 AM
Post by: Tbar on May 03, 2018, 06:46:04 AM
The numbers don't lie.The fact that you want to deny these facts is laughable.Now if you want to argue bring some facts.Can you cite your source of these numbers? Numbers mean very little of you pull them out of the air.
Post by: Cougartail on May 03, 2018, 07:57:00 AM
Also for the record i am all for the hunting and trapping of wolves and have been for years.Fixed it for you. You forgot trapping!
Post by: jasnt on May 03, 2018, 10:14:37 AM
wonder if you could get a wolf in a non-body gripping trapAlso for the record i am all for the hunting and trapping of wolves and have been for years.Fixed it for you. You forgot trapping!
Post by: Oh Mah on May 03, 2018, 01:02:23 PM
Google it yourself,its been posted on here before.For the record i'm not saying that auto kills more than cougar or coyote only saying that it is our number one problem.The numbers don't lie.The fact that you want to deny these facts is laughable.Now if you want to argue bring some facts.Can you cite your source of these numbers? Numbers mean very little of you pull them out of the air.
When you have a population of people that feel the deer and elk are a danger to motorist and of no interest to them then that's where you get the WDFW way of dealing with the game animals of this state .
Some would say that auto collisions are the straw.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on May 03, 2018, 01:46:34 PM
https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2011/02/28/more-deer-killed-by-cars-than-hunters/#.WutzKpdG3IU
And some places there is push back from non hunters against wildlife managers managing for more animals because of auto crashes and crop damage. There is definitely more to think of than just producing animals for hunters.
https://www.bridgemi.com/guest-commentary/michigan-hunters-dont-need-more-deer
Post by: buglebrush on May 03, 2018, 03:06:24 PM
You're incapable of seeing/admitting the impact wolves are having. When our future generations will no longer have OTC hunting seasons, the primary reason will be over-oredation due to poor Management. The Tipping point being the introduction and over-protection of an invasive species: " the Canadian grey Wolf". Bury your head in the sand all you want and blame cars as the #1 problem, but it doesn't change the fact that you're dead wrong. Listen to this podcast. http://averyadventures.com/?powerpress_pinw=1370-podcast
Post by: trophyhunt on May 03, 2018, 03:20:16 PM
Of course Wolves drive ungulates down out of the high country, and exacerbate any auto problem.sums it up! But it’s amazing how the wolf fans just turn a blind eye! :dunno:
You're incapable of seeing/admitting the impact wolves are having. When our future generations will no longer have OTC hunting seasons, the primary reason will be over-oredation due to poor Management. The Tipping point being the introduction and over-protection of an invasive species: " the Canadian grey Wolf". Bury your head in the sand all you want and blame cars as the #1 problem, but it doesn't change the fact that you're dead wrong. Listen to this podcast. http://averyadventures.com/?powerpress_pinw=1370-podcast
Post by: Timberstalker on May 03, 2018, 03:21:17 PM
:chuckle:
Post by: Oh Mah on May 03, 2018, 05:15:04 PM
Of course Wolves drive ungulates down out of the high country, and exacerbate any auto problem.please cite the proof of the introduction of these wolves please.and quit acting like some of us are for the wolves because were not.open a season on them i say.What you need to do is open your eyes to the battle that the wdfw has to fight all the time with the anti deer and elk pro wolf community,it is not as cut and dry as you would like it to be.A lot of other user groups out there. :bash:
You're incapable of seeing/admitting the impact wolves are having. When our future generations will no longer have OTC hunting seasons, the primary reason will be over-oredation due to poor Management. The Tipping point being the introduction and over-protection of an invasive species: " the Canadian grey Wolf". Bury your head in the sand all you want and blame cars as the #1 problem, but it doesn't change the fact that you're dead wrong. Listen to this podcast. http://averyadventures.com/?powerpress_pinw=1370-podcast
Post by: Katmai Guy on May 03, 2018, 07:25:05 PM
#1 auto huge problem
#2 coyotes big problem
#3 cougars big problem
#4 bears problem
#5 wolves problem
In this order.
One thing nobody brings up is Man, 80K+ hunters and what's the success rate? Adds up to a lot of deer and elk also. Sorry if this was stated earlier but I'm not reading 10pgs of complaining. 8)
Post by: Oh Mah on May 03, 2018, 07:28:45 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on May 03, 2018, 07:40:09 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on May 03, 2018, 07:44:41 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on May 03, 2018, 07:56:42 PM
I agree,anyone that thinks that wolfs are the biggest problem for ungulates is brainless. :tup:
If you’re up for a wintertime hike, I’d be happy to show you some interesting stuff. It would be an impactful experience for you even without the knowledge of what these areas were like 10-20 years ago. KFHunter could probably show you a dozen other areas too. Probably even some other people who live and play where WOLVES ARE. We already had a marginal state for hunting and they added wolves to it.
I kill a deer every year in this state so I’m not making excuses. I’ve chased a P&Y whitetail for three years in wolf country. I’ve also watched the surrounding does and fawns go from 20+ to ~10 to 3. It’s a travesty to have bears, cougars and now wolves basically unchecked. Tipping point.
There are not multiple user groups of game by the way.
Post by: benhuntin on May 03, 2018, 08:03:50 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Oh Mah on May 03, 2018, 08:10:12 PM
Jonathon i would expect you have several pics of diff. wolves on cam the way you talk,You mind showing us them?
Post by: Jonathan_S on May 03, 2018, 08:31:58 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on May 03, 2018, 08:34:54 PM
Offer stands to hike in or Xc ski into some wintering areas if you’re genuinely curious and not just running that mouth.
Post by: Tbar on May 03, 2018, 08:38:29 PM
I can’t keep up with your conversational pivots. I can however, keep up with the basic status of the ungulate herds in NE Washington where wolves go unchecked and herds get leaner and leaner. I assume you’ve been all over the NE too based on your seemingly intimate knowledge.:yeah: Oh Mah, do you live in the n.e.?
Post by: Oh Mah on May 03, 2018, 08:42:22 PM
I can’t keep up with your conversational pivots. I can however, keep up with the basic status of the ungulate herds in NE Washington where wolves go unchecked and herds get leaner and leaner. I assume you’ve been all over the NE too based on your seemingly intimate knowledge.riddle me this all knowing one.If you are so sure that wolves are all we need to put in check to get our herds back then whats the problem in Yakima where we havent really nailed any wolf population at all.You make it sound as though we are only suffering these losses in the NE. give me a break. :bash: get off the pity wagon.if you had wolf pics you would have kept them since you dont i have to think bull in this whole conversation.I have not changed my stance on wolves at all.Hunt them,If i though for an instant that they were that big of a problem i would feel as you do,problem is that that is not the case at all.
PROVE IT. :bash:
Post by: Oh Mah on May 03, 2018, 08:44:30 PM
I don’t save a lot of pictures of anything. I’ve posted video and photos of wolves before and am not seeking your validation.You are the one running your mouth with no facts.tracks in the snow are like bigfoot tracks and mean nothing.pics of lots of them or they are not the real problem
Offer stands to hike in or Xc ski into some wintering areas if you’re genuinely curious and not just running that mouth.
Post by: Oh Mah on May 03, 2018, 08:45:28 PM
nope do you live in central WA.? because we are having same problem here with no wolves.I can’t keep up with your conversational pivots. I can however, keep up with the basic status of the ungulate herds in NE Washington where wolves go unchecked and herds get leaner and leaner. I assume you’ve been all over the NE too based on your seemingly intimate knowledge.:yeah: Oh Mah, do you live in the n.e.?
Post by: Jonathan_S on May 03, 2018, 08:49:18 PM
I don’t save a lot of pictures of anything. I’ve posted video and photos of wolves before and am not seeking your validation.You are the one running your mouth with no facts.tracks in the snow are like bigfoot tracks and mean nothing.pics of lots of them or they are not the real problem
Offer stands to hike in or Xc ski into some wintering areas if you’re genuinely curious and not just running that mouth.
Predictably, you set some arbitrary standard for facts and relevancy.
Facts are that wolves are proving to be the tipping point on an already unbalanced ecosystem.
I’ll tell the elk and moose that those tracks have nothing to do with severely decreased calf recruitment
Post by: Oh Mah on May 03, 2018, 08:50:48 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on May 03, 2018, 08:58:27 PM
More fawns and calves not living to reproduce. It doesn’t matter what causes that. You’ve expressed a deep understanding of statistical analysis with special permits etc so this is easy enough to comprehend.
Wolves add immensely to the problem through stress and direct killiing.
Post by: Tbar on May 03, 2018, 09:00:35 PM
There are wolves in central Washington.nope do you live in central WA.? because we are having same problem here with no wolves.I can’t keep up with your conversational pivots. I can however, keep up with the basic status of the ungulate herds in NE Washington where wolves go unchecked and herds get leaner and leaner. I assume you’ve been all over the NE too based on your seemingly intimate knowledge.:yeah: Oh Mah, do you live in the n.e.?
Post by: Oh Mah on May 03, 2018, 09:03:40 PM
Its simple what is in the most areas causing problems and what is not.Wolves are not in every area of this state yet every area of this state has declined in the ungulates.
Post by: Oh Mah on May 03, 2018, 09:04:32 PM
Where and how many?Proof or just tracks?There are wolves in central Washington.nope do you live in central WA.? because we are having same problem here with no wolves.I can’t keep up with your conversational pivots. I can however, keep up with the basic status of the ungulate herds in NE Washington where wolves go unchecked and herds get leaner and leaner. I assume you’ve been all over the NE too based on your seemingly intimate knowledge.:yeah: Oh Mah, do you live in the n.e.?
Post by: Jonathan_S on May 03, 2018, 09:07:14 PM
This one is played out for me. No wolves in Central Wa either apparently so that’s good to hear
Post by: Tbar on May 03, 2018, 09:10:14 PM
Post by: Tbar on May 03, 2018, 09:13:42 PM
Not here in central WA. :yeah: So what is our problem here?Maybe the fact that cougars bears coyotes and automobiles are in every area of this state and cougars are most abundant in the NE where you are having a problem that's the problem.Yakima herd has been stable at or above objective until some politically motivated decisions and the boom/bust management actions.
Its simple what is in the most areas causing problems and what is not.Wolves are not in every area of this state yet every area of this state has declined in the ungulates.
Post by: Oh Mah on May 03, 2018, 09:17:50 PM
didnt the same people that did that here in Yakima do that all over the state?Not here in central WA. :yeah: So what is our problem here?Maybe the fact that cougars bears coyotes and automobiles are in every area of this state and cougars are most abundant in the NE where you are having a problem that's the problem.Yakima herd has been stable at or above objective until some politically motivated decisions and the boom/bust management actions.
Its simple what is in the most areas causing problems and what is not.Wolves are not in every area of this state yet every area of this state has declined in the ungulates.
Isn't the Methow in Okanogan?
Post by: Oh Mah on May 03, 2018, 09:22:10 PM
Post by: buglebrush on May 04, 2018, 01:27:24 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on May 04, 2018, 05:15:08 AM
There in lies the issue objective!! Way under sustainabilityNot here in central WA. :yeah: So what is our problem here?Maybe the fact that cougars bears coyotes and automobiles are in every area of this state and cougars are most abundant in the NE where you are having a problem that's the problem.Yakima herd has been stable at or above objective until some politically motivated decisions and the boom/bust management actions.
Its simple what is in the most areas causing problems and what is not.Wolves are not in every area of this state yet every area of this state has declined in the ungulates.
Post by: Timberstalker on May 04, 2018, 06:02:55 AM
Here I thought the 3 packs in the blues were hurting deer and elk numbers all along.
Thanks for setting my worries at ease, Oh Mah.
Post by: trophyhunt on May 04, 2018, 06:17:24 AM
Post by: jackelope on May 04, 2018, 08:23:14 AM
No wolves in the central cascades....... how long have you worked for the wdfw oh Mah?
Even WDFW doesn't deny their presence in the central cascades. There are confirmed packs!!
There are videos on the forum a member posted a month or 2 ago of a wolf in central WA. What the heck?
Post by: trophyhunt on May 04, 2018, 09:10:19 AM
:tup:No wolves in the central cascades....... how long have you worked for the wdfw oh Mah?
Even WDFW doesn't deny their presence in the central cascades. There are confirmed packs!!
There are videos on the forum a member posted a month or 2 ago of a wolf in central WA. What the heck?
Post by: Cougartail on May 04, 2018, 09:43:09 AM
Funny though, We were up howling on White Pass last fall and a hunter from another camp asked us if we heard the wolves? lol
Post by: elkrack on May 04, 2018, 09:52:53 AM
No packs south of Chinook Pass. Hunting still sucks as all other predators are doing well.
Funny though, We were up howling on White Pass last fall and a hunter from another camp asked us if we heard the wolves? lol
There’s wolves in rimrock
Post by: vandeman17 on May 04, 2018, 09:53:09 AM
No wolves in the central cascades....... how long have you worked for the wdfw oh Mah?
I haven't kept up with this thread lately so it took me a bit to read the past few pages. Oh Mah sure is a character. I will give it to him that he is persistent but so far off. I live in central wa and have cameras all over. No wolves is like saying there are not fat people in the drive through at mcdonalds.
Post by: elkrack on May 04, 2018, 10:07:41 AM
Post by: vandeman17 on May 04, 2018, 10:19:58 AM
I think the matter of fact is that this state is extremely predator friendly! Period. Whether we are talking about wolves bears cats or people.
100%. Multiple things need to change for big game numbers to improve
Post by: KFhunter on May 04, 2018, 10:23:04 AM
A bear doesn't cause much stir with elk until they nab a fawn but even then they aren't running around all over the country, deer run off a ways blow and snort but it's not a big deal with a bear, they waddle around grazing them BAM! take a deer or fawn, crate a bit of havoc for a few minutes but it's over and done and very localized.
Cougars are like a lightning strike, BAM! and done, very little herd panic. Nearby deer all run down the mountain for a mile or three then calm down as no one is chasing them.
wolves, very different. They aren't stalk and pounce predators and could care less if the deer/elk/moose see them coming. They simply chase them relentlessly until one of the pack has locked on an animal, several of the pack can all lock onto animals as the whole herd gets chased for miles and miles then finally some will peel off and help bring down a big animal like elk, or several of the pack might all bring down multiple deer and spread out for miles chasing deer, they might be in pairs or "lone" in deer country but they aren't really all alone.
With wolves the whole herd spends gobs of calories in extended chases that last for hours/days, if the cows have calves those calves go hungry and start calling, in come the bears, cougar and coyotes cashing in on undefended fawns making racket for their mamma's who are running for their lives.
Direct kills by wolves aren't what the biggest problem is, it's the indirect kills.
In winter a non stressed herd can conserve calories and make it through the tough Feb/Mar and even April months, but a herd that's being chased non-stop all winter might not conserve enough calories and become a buzz word "winter kill", yes winter kill can happen without wolves or other stresses, but wolves exacerbate it big time. If a big animal is running through snow that's a bunch of calories being burnt, ever see a moose or elk quivering and shaking in the cold after a long run? That's a lot of stress and can kill them even though no wolves are around it now (it got away, made it humans, wolves peeled off for a different animal that didn't make it) they did harasses it to that point.
Post by: cbond3318 on May 04, 2018, 10:37:40 AM
https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/newshound/2013/06/study-wolves-not-cause-wyoming-elk-decline#page-4
Post by: KFhunter on May 04, 2018, 10:53:10 AM
I don't get my information from a magazine or some college professor in charge of large carnivore studies sitting in a classroom at WSU.
edit:
Actually now I've read the article it doesn't contradict me at all if you take out the obvious bias and just stick to the facts presented, funny thing is the facts in the article directly contradict the researchers own narrative. Read it again with a unbiased eye and filter out the facts, then re-read what I wrote. It's in there, if you can see it.
Post by: buglebrush on May 04, 2018, 11:06:47 AM
It's the constant harassing and chasing that's so different with wolves, the herds consume a lot more calories and stress a lot more with wolves than other predators.
A bear doesn't cause much stir with elk until they nab a fawn but even then they aren't running around all over the country, deer run off a ways blow and snort but it's not a big deal with a bear, they waddle around grazing them BAM! take a deer or fawn, crate a bit of havoc for a few minutes but it's over and done and very localized.
Cougars are like a lightning strike, BAM! and done, very little herd panic. Nearby deer all run down the mountain for a mile or three then calm down as no one is chasing them.
wolves, very different. They aren't stalk and pounce predators and could care less if the deer/elk/moose see them coming. They simply chase them relentlessly until one of the pack has locked on an animal, several of the pack can all lock onto animals as the whole herd gets chased for miles and miles then finally some will peel off and help bring down a big animal like elk, or several of the pack might all bring down multiple deer and spread out for miles chasing deer, they might be in pairs or "lone" in deer country but they aren't really all alone.
With wolves the whole herd spends gobs of calories in extended chases that last for hours/days, if the cows have calves those calves go hungry and start calling, in come the bears, cougar and coyotes cashing in on undefended fawns making racket for their mamma's who are running for their lives.
Direct kills by wolves aren't what the biggest problem is, it's the indirect kills.
In winter a non stressed herd can conserve calories and make it through the tough Feb/Mar and even April months, but a herd that's being chased non-stop all winter might not conserve enough calories and become a buzz word "winter kill", yes winter kill can happen without wolves or other stresses, but wolves exacerbate it big time. If a big animal is running through snow that's a bunch of calories being burnt, ever see a moose or elk quivering and shaking in the cold after a long run? That's a lot of stress and can kill them even though no wolves are around it now (it got away, made it humans, wolves peeled off for a different animal that didn't make it) they did harasses it to that point.
:yeah: Exactly.
Post by: trophyhunt on May 04, 2018, 11:13:55 AM
It's the constant harassing and chasing that's so different with wolves, the herds consume a lot more calories and stress a lot more with wolves than other predators.seriously, this is one of the best post’s of the year! Spot on! And if anyone disagrees with this, they should never post again! Great post, thank you!
A bear doesn't cause much stir with elk until they nab a fawn but even then they aren't running around all over the country, deer run off a ways blow and snort but it's not a big deal with a bear, they waddle around grazing them BAM! take a deer or fawn, crate a bit of havoc for a few minutes but it's over and done and very localized.
Cougars are like a lightning strike, BAM! and done, very little herd panic. Nearby deer all run down the mountain for a mile or three then calm down as no one is chasing them.
wolves, very different. They aren't stalk and pounce predators and could care less if the deer/elk/moose see them coming. They simply chase them relentlessly until one of the pack has locked on an animal, several of the pack can all lock onto animals as the whole herd gets chased for miles and miles then finally some will peel off and help bring down a big animal like elk, or several of the pack might all bring down multiple deer and spread out for miles chasing deer, they might be in pairs or "lone" in deer country but they aren't really all alone.
With wolves the whole herd spends gobs of calories in extended chases that last for hours/days, if the cows have calves those calves go hungry and start calling, in come the bears, cougar and coyotes cashing in on undefended fawns making racket for their mamma's who are running for their lives.
Direct kills by wolves aren't what the biggest problem is, it's the indirect kills.
In winter a non stressed herd can conserve calories and make it through the tough Feb/Mar and even April months, but a herd that's being chased non-stop all winter might not conserve enough calories and become a buzz word "winter kill", yes winter kill can happen without wolves or other stresses, but wolves exacerbate it big time. If a big animal is running through snow that's a bunch of calories being burnt, ever see a moose or elk quivering and shaking in the cold after a long run? That's a lot of stress and can kill them even though no wolves are around it now (it got away, made it humans, wolves peeled off for a different animal that didn't make it) they did harasses it to that point.
Post by: Cougartail on May 04, 2018, 11:53:42 AM
No packs south of Chinook Pass. Hunting still sucks as all other predators are doing well.
Funny though, We were up howling on White Pass last fall and a hunter from another camp asked us if we heard the wolves? lol
There’s wolves in rimrock
Nope.. maybe one wondered through the area once. I hunt/trap/jeep/hike/mountain bike and explore that area as it's my backyard.
Post by: cbond3318 on May 04, 2018, 12:02:19 PM
You can find plenty of articles saying wolves aren't bad, that they only take the sick and wounded and make the herds stronger and make you a better hunter.
I don't get my information from a magazine or some college professor in charge of large carnivore studies sitting in a classroom at WSU.
edit:
Actually now I've read the article it doesn't contradict me at all if you take out the obvious bias and just stick to the facts presented, funny thing is the facts in the article directly contradict the researchers own narrative. Read it again with a unbiased eye and filter out the facts, then re-read what I wrote. It's in there, if you can see it.
Quote from the article:
"From my time in the field, I can say that most days in the life of a cow elk are pretty boring," Middleton says. On average, elk encountered wolves once every 9 days. The highest wolf-encounter rate for any individual elk was once every four days. And, even though elk were encountering wolves, they weren't overly stressed or run to starvation."
Please dont make assumptions about me. I found it interesting that this particular study, Funded by RMEF among others and assumedly done in conjuction with WY G&F, taken over the course of 3 yrs, showed that ELk werent ran into an irrepairable calorie deficiency causing indirect deaths. But, maybe the research team are a bunch of Wolf Loving liberals with heavy wool. :dunno:
Maybe I misunderstood what your point was. The study doesn't touch on how many calves were eaten by Bears as a result of Cows being ran off by Wolves. It also doesnt touch on how many were killed by Wolves directly. But IMO, with an unbiased eye, this "Particular" article concludes Wolves did not run the Clark Fork Elk herd of Wyoming to death during the course of the 3 yr study. I have eyes open wide enough to not imediatly discredit ANY information gathered whether it contradicts my personal opinions or not. Unfortunatly I am not afforded the great opurtunity you have to make first hand observations in heavy wolf country.
Post by: idahohuntr on May 04, 2018, 12:48:04 PM
You can find plenty of articles saying wolves aren't bad, that they only take the sick and wounded and make the herds stronger and make you a better hunter.The article of the study funded by RMEF, SCI, Boone and Crockett club etc. and conducted by Wyoming staff directly contradict your speculative view of how wolves interact with elk. They flat out state:
I don't get my information from a magazine or some college professor in charge of large carnivore studies sitting in a classroom at WSU.
edit:
Actually now I've read the article it doesn't contradict me at all if you take out the obvious bias and just stick to the facts presented, funny thing is the facts in the article directly contradict the researchers own narrative. Read it again with a unbiased eye and filter out the facts, then re-read what I wrote. It's in there, if you can see it.
The researchers also found that the number of wolf encounters had no impact on the amount of elk body fat. Body fat is a critical measurement for cows' ability to rear calves.
So if the wolf-hunting-pressure theory was busted, what was happening to the Clark Fork's herd?
Middleton says it comes down to habitat. The area has suffered a 20-year decline in habitat across the herd's summer range. If an elk can't put on enough body fat in the summer and fall, then it will struggle through the winter, regardless of predators,
This study is specific to a NW Wyoming elk herd, so how applicable it is to other parts of the West is certainly debatable. It definitely adds to the body of evidence regarding the criticality of habitat relative to predators. Predation and predators are so visible its easy to blame them for any declines, and it is a legitimate blame in various areas, but it is very hard to see the habitat changes over 30, 50, 100 years that in many instances have substantially larger impacts on animal abundance.
Post by: KFhunter on May 04, 2018, 03:21:00 PM
Quote
Of course, wolf predation does affect overall elk numbers, but in a separate study Middleton found that wolves weren't even the top calf predators. He found that bears typically take out more elk calves than wolves do. During a June monitoring period grizzlies killed an elk calf every two to four days and black bears killed a calf every four to eight days.
Just what I said above, wolves don't tend to scour around for calves and instead just chase around the adults, a younger black bear will take a calf if the adults are gone. Big boars and Grizz don't care either way, but those younger bear outnumber those big boars and grizz.
To show my point here's a couple utube vids.
#1 no wolves present, cow defends calf vid
#2 "ears drooped, totally wore out" what wore that cow out so bad? The bear? I highly doubt that, according to the description this is an area being hit by wolves and the elk are in serious decline here, so make your own assumptions why that cow was wore out so bad.
Post by: KFhunter on May 04, 2018, 04:46:06 PM
Any hunter who's spent time in wolf country can attest to the predators' influence. We see wolf tracks, find old kills, and often times we spot fewer game animals. But exactly how wolves affect big-game populations is still greatly unknown. Yeah, wolves eat elk. But, do they kill mostly adults or calves? Do they eat enough elk to wipe out a whole herd? Do they pressure elk into hiding in the timber or force them off their feeding patterns? Are wolves even one of the main factors in elk population dynamics?
KF says: Wolves mostly kill adults or sub adults, not calves. They don’t scour around seeking small morels like a neonatal calf.
New research from the Wyoming Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Unit at the University of Wyoming is starting to shed light on some of these questions. After three years of studying the Clark's Fork elk herd (about 5,000 animals) in northwest Wyoming, lead researcher Arthur Middleton found that wolves might not be as detrimental to elk populations as many outdoorsmen think.
KF says: You can find Arthur Middleton at UC Berkeley -> amiddleton@berkeley.edu
His research shows that the Clark's Fork herd's fate is based on a complex set of variables including habitat, weather, hunting, bears, and wolves.
KF says: hrm, this is a precursor of an articles intent... #1habitat, #2weather, #3hunting, #4bears, and #5wolves...in that order /sigh
"There's a pretty popular notion that elk are always responding to wolves. And that's a fairly logical perception because wolves are always hunting elk … But wolves hunt an elk population. That [hunting pressure] doesn't always affect individual animals."
KF says: Big herd = safety in numbers, but what about small herds? In this instance the whole herd is affected anytime there are wolves taking an interest in them. Yes they’ll stand around a while eyeballin’ one another and people would think “oh man, they aren’t running around crazy like everyone say’s”….ya, keep watching. It’ll get more serious once they break.
The Study**
Middleton and a coalition of biologists GPS collared wolves and elk west of Cody, Wyoming in and around Yellowstone National park. In a study area of about 1 million acres, they monitored interactions between predator and prey. Over three years they observed the animals in January, February, and March - when wolves typically put the most stress on elk. The study was funded by a variety of organizations and agencies including Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Boone & Crockett Club, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and Safari Club International.
KF says: “January, February, and March - when wolves typically put the most stress on elk.” Keep this thought…….
The researchers set out to test the theory that wolves were responsible for decreasing elk populations in ways besides direct predation. In other words, they wanted to find out if pressure from wolves was running elk out of their regular feeding patterns and keeping cows from putting on enough body fat to rear calves in the spring.
KF says: Have you ever seen a wolf pack bump a small herd over and over and over and over again? I have. In bigger herds the extra harassment by wolves could be absorbed with less impact for individual animals as this article and study talk about, not so much in small herds.
The research started at a critical time for the Clark's Fork herd. Calf-to-cow ratios in the migratory herd started dropping in the mid-90s, about the same time wolves were introduced. Those ratios have remained low since 2002 and overall elk numbers decreased. Middleton found about 15 calves to 100 elk in the migratory Clark's Fork herd. In the resident herd, the ratio was about 35 calves per 100 elk.
KF says: There’s a lot of information here, the migratory herd suffered over twice the losses of the resident herd but we don’t know why, did they migrate to Mt. lion infested areas? Mt. Lion take more young animals than any other predator in areas where there are a lot of lions. Elk declined “About the same time wolves were introduced” Occam’s razor would say “duh”.
Hunters and wildlife managers were alarmed by the drop in elk numbers. Doug McWhiter, a Wyoming Fish and Game biologist who manages the area, said elk numbers are stable now, but hunting opportunities had to be cut. Cow tags were reduced and hunting units in the area were switched from general over-the-counter licenses to limited quota in 2010. Hunter opportunity was reduced by 50 to 75 percent, says McWhiter who helped with Middleton's research.
KF says: It’s a good idea to stop antlerless hunts when the herd is in decline and below management objectives. We’ll be seeing this in WA more and more, or rather we should be seeing even more of this now.
"We can maintain these elk numbers but we had to severely limit hunting opportunity to do that," he says. "That in itself is difficult for people to understand."
KF says: It’s easy to understand with proper outreach and transparency, but when agencies like WDFW tend to blame everything BUT the wolf, then it’s more difficult to understand or rather accept at face value. When all else fails, it’s habitat loss! basically folks it comes down to this it's us(hunters) or it's them (predators) WDFW has chosen its side
The Findings**
Middleton and his crew found that a new wolf pack does not mean certain doom for an elk herd. In fact, elk have adapted to living with wolves.
KF says: A new wolf pack is just the start, it takes a while.
"From my time in the field, I can say that most days in the life of a cow elk are pretty boring," Middleton says. On average, elk encountered wolves once every 9 days. The highest wolf-encounter rate for any individual elk was once every four days. And, even though elk were encountering wolves, they weren't overly stressed or run to starvation.
KF says: Can you see the Elk from the UC Berkeley campus? The Elk weren’t overly stressed? Again safety in big numbers, but as the herds decline the pressure increases. Just look at the LOLO Elk herd, once that tipping point was crossed it was a swift decline, like a snowball effect.
"We didn't see any reduction in rate of feeding and we didn't see them shift into timber. Those two behaviors were said to be [metabolically] costly, but we just didn't see [the elk reacting that way,]" Middleton says.
KF says: I would not expect a PHD to use a source like “said to be”; regardless this again is safety in numbers.
Elk did move slightly more when wolves were within 1 kilometer, but not by much - they only traveled an extra 30 meters per hour when wolves were in the area.
KF says: Some of the animals not directly being chased ran in circles avoiding the wolf, this wouldn’t happen in a small herd as they all move out together.
The researchers also found that the number of wolf encounters had no impact on the amount of elk body fat. Body fat is a critical measurement for cows' ability to rear calves.
KF says: Not in a small herd being bumped over and over.
So if the wolf-hunting-pressure theory was busted, what was happening to the Clark Fork's herd?
KF says: It’s not busted; the article/study has jumped to this conclusion, the true goal of the study is to show habitat loss. The evidence was weak and based on one or two herds depending on the season.
Middleton says it comes down to habitat. The area has suffered a 20-year decline in habitat across the herd's summer range. If an elk can't put on enough body fat in the summer and fall, then it will struggle through the winter, regardless of predators, Middleton says.
KF says: How’d I guess habitat was the key, the magic bullet. Ok, maybe(benefit of the doubt here) this herd has suffered habitat loss over a 20 year period, but other herds in collapse or serious decline have not suffered habitat loss, are we to take this article seriously?
"We looked at a suite of factors that could explain late-winter body fat and the only thing that did explain it was autumn body fat. In other words, whatever they get over the summer determines where they end up in winter," he says.
KF says: Well duh, unless you’re feeding them.
Of course, wolf predation does affect overall elk numbers, but in a separate study Middleton found that wolves weren't even the top calf predators. He found that bears typically take out more elk calves than wolves do. During a June monitoring period grizzlies killed an elk calf every two to four days and black bears killed a calf every four to eight days.
KF says: “Of course, wolf predation does affect overall elk numbers” here’s our take away folks :lol: I also agree that wolves aren’t the top predator for calves, that’s the bear for very young bedded calves and Mt. Lion for juvenile elk following the herd. Like I said, it's in here if you can see it.
Backcountry Observations**
Collecting data that shows an elk herd can thrive in wolf country and then getting people to actually believe that data are two different challenges. Hunters and outfitters who have spent their lives in the backcountry - before and after the wolf reintroduction - have already made plenty of their own observations.
KF says: Now we see the goal of this article --> "to get people to actually believe this crap”; it totally discounts hunting guides and paints them as the enemy, when they have more knowledge of the elk than practically anyone else.
Tim Doud, owner of Bliss Creek Outfitters out of Cody, says the elk decline goes hand-in-hand with the wolf reintroduction. Clear and simple.
KF says: correct Tim, just as Middleton found himself, see above.
"The elk population numbers have certainty decreased and it is because of the wolves. That's the only reason in my eyes," he says. "Now I'm not anti-wolf. I don't think they should be wiped out or anything like that. But we do need to hunt more of them. Most people don't see what I see. They don't see the horrific, suffering death of an elk whose hindquarters have been chewed away and can only lay there and die slowly. That's a real shame. Most people … go to Yellowstone to see the pretty dogs."
KF says: **note to all guides out there, using the phrase "I'm not anti-wolf" is akin to saying: "I'm not a racist, I have a black friend!" or: "I'm not a bigot, I have a gay friend!"
Just don't go there folks :chuckle:
KF says: correct, all canid species tend to kill in a gruesome way, emotion aside, he’s correct that: “Of course, wolf depredation does affect overall elk numbers” that cannot be denied.
Ron Lineberger owns Butte Creek Outfitters with his wife Theresa and guides elk hunters in the Wyoming backcountry. Over the years he's seen elk behavior change, and in many ways his observations match Middleton's research. "Elk behavior has totally changed, but the elk are not gone. Everyone loves to blame the wolf because it's easy … [Wolves] did change the dynamic for the environment and they've changed the way a lot of animals have evolved. It has led to a bit of catastrophic natural adaptation…
KF says: No they aren’t gone, in Yellowstone you can find them in the parking lot eating grass from cracks in the blacktop, in other wolf areas you can find them huddling next to a farm house, it’s great if you profit off elk with trespass fees, not so great if you’re a public land hunter and the wolves have driven all the elk down to private property.
"There has been a succession of fires, which destroyed natural elk habitat. Grizzly bear numbers have gone up and the elk have moved to survive. They have moved to more agricultural and human habitat areas. It's not just the wolf that's caused the change. People just look to put the blame on one thing. Yes, elk have moved to areas that haven't seen elk for 200 years. But there are large portions of healthy elk populations that have moved to private land, which makes them unhuntable … Think of it this way: the elk are picking their poison. Either deal with hunters in the low country for 6 weeks, or stay in the high country and deal with wolves and bears year round."
KF says: Fire is natural, and short term, the area will rebound with excellent forage if the Elk can sustain additional wolf pressure. Grizz and Wolves go hand in hand, when the wolf thrives the Grizz follow, they push wolves off kills, thus the wolves kill more often, I’ve said before that a Grizz can smell a wolf kill before it happens. As for Elk moving to private property I’ve addressed that above.
The takeaway?
Adapting to environmental changes is key to the success of a species, and an elk hunter. "The hunter has to adapt as well," Lineberger says. "Hunting elk also relies on a lot of factors that we have no control over. The fact that they have become more alert thanks to the wolves, certainly makes it tougher, but hunters must adapt to that. We are no different than any other animal. We must adapt to survive."
KF says: Wolves will make you a better hunter! (if you can afford the trespass fees)
Post by: KFhunter on May 04, 2018, 05:16:49 PM
The article states that Elk find safety near humans, so does that mean that all those new houses should be helping the elk by keeping wolves at bay? If that's the case then folks should be planting things elk like to eat in the winter, or put in a feeding station if they want elk to thrive over winter.
Post by: Jonathan_S on May 04, 2018, 07:01:42 PM
Pull a numberered list out of your arse is the only way to represent fact.
Just kidding, and thanks for posting
Post by: KFhunter on May 04, 2018, 07:16:53 PM
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3ccf/ef5fbf556901d606bd2f882b65db4c520977.pdf?_ga=2.130403784.636247903.1525486577-619166728.1525486577
Post by: cbond3318 on May 04, 2018, 08:31:48 PM
I don’t apply this in a broad stroke to all populations because a study will never be able to cover all populations but, this study’s findings are clear and they are in there if you are willing to see it.
Post by: Oh Mah on May 04, 2018, 09:15:33 PM
Question isn't there a lot of reports in NE WA. with these claims?If there are (we know there are) why not here in central wa.?
Site reports of confirmed or non wolf-cattle kills in Central WA. We already have the one in Cle Ellum.
Post by: Bango skank on May 04, 2018, 09:21:14 PM
Post by: KFhunter on May 04, 2018, 09:24:39 PM
You can say i'm all alone on this you can even say i'm so far out their and don't know anything about this because i don't live in wolf country.That's all fine and good.I will stick with all of my statements and just keep a watchful eye on the kill claims made in certain areas of the state.Now i acknowledge that the wdfw has said there is a pack of 4 in Cle Ellum,This i did not know but If you are not seeing a bunch of ranchers in Central WA. claiming wolves are killing their stock then i don't see how anyone can say that the wolves are killing all the elk.
Question isn't there a lot of reports in NE WA. with these claims?If there are (we know there are) why not here in central wa.?
Site reports of confirmed or non wolf-cattle kills in Central WA. We already have the one in Cle Ellum.
This is how it starts
https://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2016/dec/29/feds-wolves-not-responsible-for-dead-cattle/
Feds: Wolves did not kill cattle
BREWSTER — The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service found that wolves were not responsible for two cows found dead in the Brewster area in mid-December.
Wildlife Service spokeswoman Ann Froschauer said although wolves had been feeding on the dead cows, neither of the carcasses showed any evidence they were injured before they died, or had any of the signs that are specific to wolf-killed animals.
“The cows died from unknown causes, as they often do,” she said.
Froschauer said the…
https://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2013/mar/28/wolves-didnt-kill-cow-state-says/
WENATCHEE — State wildlife experts have concluded that a pregnant cow found dead south of Wenatchee on Tuesday was not killed by a wolf. However they are still worried about the two gray wolves that appear to be establishing territory on or near a cattle ranch in Pitcher Canyon.
Post by: Oh Mah on May 04, 2018, 09:29:04 PM
Back to my question:Confirmed or unconfirmed Wolf cattle kills Central WA.
Post by: KFhunter on May 04, 2018, 09:35:24 PM
To both posts,there is no doubt there are a lot of wolves in NE WA. like where both of these posts are referring.My point is that the elk are gone everywhere in this state not just in NE WA.
Back to my question:Confirmed or unconfirmed Wolf cattle kills Central WA.
Are you gambling that wolves won't kill cattle in central wa? Sounds like a loosing proposition when mostly likely, they already have. Or are you going to keep moving the goal posts?
Post by: bowhunterforever on May 04, 2018, 09:37:35 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on May 04, 2018, 09:53:43 PM
not moving anything,just pointing out the fact that we all agree that wolves are thick in NE WA. and lots of reports of wolfs killing livestock in NE WA.. and i'm pointing out that the same is not here in Central WA. so there must not be the wolves in Central WA. that some claim and that since we have the same elk decline in Central WA. that they have in NE WA. then the problem must be something other than wolves.To both posts,there is no doubt there are a lot of wolves in NE WA. like where both of these posts are referring.My point is that the elk are gone everywhere in this state not just in NE WA.
Back to my question:Confirmed or unconfirmed Wolf cattle kills Central WA.
Are you gambling that wolves won't kill cattle in central wa? Sounds like a loosing proposition when mostly likely, they already have. Or are you going to keep moving the goal posts?
Never changed my story from start to finish,Hunt them in every county of the state.
Post by: KFhunter on May 04, 2018, 09:58:41 PM
MT. Lion are also very thick in central WA, and then there's the whole tribal issue going on, bigger herds there than in NEWA. The dynamics aren't all the same. Each region needs to be looked individually, not this one shoe fits all approach.
Wolves will get worse though, you're a few years behind us here in NEWA.
Post by: jasnt on May 04, 2018, 10:11:25 PM
Yeah, wolf supporters should be happy. This mountain is now nearly devoid of game. Not jack for deer or bears, elk are scarce, and moose getting hammered. I count 11 wolves here. Mountain is absolutely covered in wolf tracks, and they have a den just a little ways south of this cam, so i expect 14+ in this pack soon, and with the way they seem to have run all of the game out of the area, im certain theyre goibg to splinter off into multiple smaller groups, most of which wont be collared and therefore untrackable, leading to greater costs for wdfw. Hope youre happy wolf lovers.i was hoping you would post those pics. Post more. Those pics you sent me. At least a dozen in that pack best I could count.
Your blind if you think populations haven’t been affected in this area. Predators are a major problem in me wa. Cars are not the worst and neither are people. Cats and k9’s need to hit the dirt. We need to target predators to make a difference. The state will not help us. We need to stand up and do it
Post by: Oh Mah on May 04, 2018, 10:14:50 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on May 04, 2018, 10:17:39 PM
They are in central WA, and the Elk are declining in central WA. but there's more factors going on than wolves alone.exactly.so what about the straw the camel and all that?The fact is and this is what im trying to point out,wolves are not every where buts cats and coyotes are,we can hunt cats and coyotes but not enough hunters do.If the opened a wolf season and i hope they do some day,will it be the same?All complaining and no out hunting them.
MT. Lion are also very thick in central WA, and then there's the whole tribal issue going on, bigger herds there than in NEWA. The dynamics aren't all the same. Each region needs to be looked individually, not this one shoe fits all approach.
Wolves will get worse though, you're a few years behind us here in NEWA.
Post by: jasnt on May 04, 2018, 10:26:34 PM
thats where you are dead wrong. Many of us are out targeting predators and that number keeps growing. I urge all those that read this to target predators. I’ve stopped targeting deer and elk and have made my sole target predators. I’ll continue typhsh this till I see a differenceThey are in central WA, and the Elk are declining in central WA. but there's more factors going on than wolves alone.exactly.so what about the straw the camel and all that?The fact is and this is what im trying to point out,wolves are not every where buts cats and coyotes are,we can hunt cats and coyotes but not enough hunters do.If the opened a wolf season and i hope they do some day,will it be the same?All complaining and no out hunting them.
MT. Lion are also very thick in central WA, and then there's the whole tribal issue going on, bigger herds there than in NEWA. The dynamics aren't all the same. Each region needs to be looked individually, not this one shoe fits all approach.
Wolves will get worse though, you're a few years behind us here in NEWA.
Post by: Oh Mah on May 04, 2018, 10:39:48 PM
How many hunters do you know jasnt that wont hunt coyotes when the pups are dropping?I hear hunters saying this all the time,If they wont hunt them when they are pups they are not trying to thin them out.
Post by: Oh Mah on May 04, 2018, 10:45:34 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on May 04, 2018, 10:50:14 PM
Post by: jasnt on May 04, 2018, 10:51:15 PM
umm i'm not dead wrong jasnt,not very many are like you out there targeting the predators.every guy I know will kill coyotes at the drop of a hat. Doesn’t matter what they are hunting. If a predator shows up it gets lead poisoning. Things maybe different in your neck of the woods but in my area....if it eats meat it’s on the list. Regardless of seasons. I don’t hunt fur. My friends don’t hunt fur. There is no off season in ne wa
How many hunters do you know jasnt that wont hunt coyotes when the pups are dropping?I hear hunters saying this all the time,If they wont hunt them when they are pups they are not trying to thin them out.
In my circle coyotes are targeted may- July. Pups or no pups I don’t care. My friends don’t either. Sounds like too many folks need to take note in your circle. They all die if given the chance.
Too many folks don’t. But you can bet your last buck many of us are out there hunting them year round.
Post by: Oh Mah on May 04, 2018, 10:52:33 PM
Post by: bowhunterforever on May 05, 2018, 12:13:28 AM
:yeah: All my buddies are the sameumm i'm not dead wrong jasnt,not very many are like you out there targeting the predators.every guy I know will kill coyotes at the drop of a hat. Doesn’t matter what they are hunting. If a predator shows up it gets lead poisoning. Things maybe different in your neck of the woods but in my area....if it eats meat it’s on the list. Regardless of seasons. I don’t hunt fur. My friends don’t hunt fur. There is no off season in ne wa
How many hunters do you know jasnt that wont hunt coyotes when the pups are dropping?I hear hunters saying this all the time,If they wont hunt them when they are pups they are not trying to thin them out.
In my circle coyotes are targeted may- July. Pups or no pups I don’t care. My friends don’t either. Sounds like too many folks need to take note in your circle. They all die if given the chance.
Too many folks don’t. But you can bet your last buck many of us are out there hunting them year round.
Post by: Oh Mah on May 05, 2018, 10:36:29 AM
Post by: h20hunter on May 05, 2018, 10:44:04 AM
Post by: Oh Mah on May 05, 2018, 11:30:39 AM
Post by: bigmacc on May 05, 2018, 11:33:59 AM
Overabundance of all predators in the entire state.
:tup:...lots of bears, lots of cats....everywhere :bash:
Post by: nwwanderer on May 05, 2018, 11:39:54 AM
Post by: buglebrush on May 05, 2018, 12:00:57 PM
If the wolves are the biggest problem why the decline in ungulates everywhere in the state?Map from Dec. 2017.WDFW
If cars are the biggest problems how come across the West the biggest declines happen in Wilderness areas? :bash:
Post by: Oh Mah on May 05, 2018, 12:08:32 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on May 05, 2018, 12:15:01 PM
Google it yourself,its been posted on here before.For the record i'm not saying that auto kills more than cougar or coyote only saying that it is our number one problem.The numbers don't lie.The fact that you want to deny these facts is laughable.Now if you want to argue bring some facts.Can you cite your source of these numbers? Numbers mean very little of you pull them out of the air.
When you have a population of people that feel the deer and elk are a danger to motorist and of no interest to them then that's where you get the WDFW way of dealing with the game animals of this state .
Some would say that auto collisions are the straw.
Post by: KFhunter on May 05, 2018, 04:27:53 PM
as i already stated cars are not number 1 because more are killed by cars but because the metro bunny hugging groups outnumber the rest and push legislatures to keep the numbers of ungulates in check making collisions the number one problem for hunters.All the people complaining about the overpass being built should think of that.yes its a waste but who is making them do it and why is what needs discussed.
OK I get what you're saying, politically speaking, vehicle impacts are what non-hunters are most worried about, but that doesn't mean cars are the #1 killer of deer or elk.
meh, I don't know. I know they're pushing that agenda for all the animal bridges over I-90 but your average voter in King CO. probably hasn't even thought about a deer or elk in years and just goes along with what the liberal leaders tell them.
Post by: Oh Mah on May 05, 2018, 05:58:19 PM
Would you agree that because of how the commission runs WDFW,that is controlled by legislatures is why we have a predator problem in the first place?
Would you agree that if the masses in big metro of this state wanted to keep the ungulate herds from being predated would say so and legislature would listen?
Would you agree that there has been a big push from the big metro to curb the ungulate numbers of this state because of collisions?
Would you agree that all the new elk fencing put up is keeping the elk from the road ways but unlike that of the overpasses not allowing the ungulates to be able to spread their gene pool as the main reason to build the over passes was in the first place.
Auto collisions have a huge part in what the dept. is or is not doing to help the herds.
Post by: Tbar on May 05, 2018, 06:08:40 PM
That depends on how you look at it.You are wrong on so many topics. Oh yeah, all herds are not dwindling. There are many issues with wildlife management but you are way off base on nearly everything.
Would you agree that because of how the commission runs WDFW,that is controlled by legislatures is why we have a predator problem in the first place?
Would you agree that if the masses in big metro of this state wanted to keep the ungulate herds from being predated would say so and legislature would listen?
Would you agree that there has been a big push from the big metro to curb the ungulate numbers of this state because of collisions?
Would you agree that all the new elk fencing put up is keeping the elk from the road ways but unlike that of the overpasses not allowing the ungulates to be able to spread their gene pool as the main reason to build the over passes was in the first place.
Auto collisions have a huge part in what the dept. is or is not doing to help the herds.
Post by: Oh Mah on May 05, 2018, 06:38:44 PM
You're wrong on so many levels,Very well thought out. Wow
Post by: Tbar on May 05, 2018, 07:03:00 PM
That depends on how you look at it.I'll respond later when time allows. Btw, there are wolves in central Washington.
Would you agree that because of how the commission runs WDFW,that is controlled by legislatures is why we have a predator problem in the first place?
This is not the reason, voter initiative in the 90s is where I'd start. After that there has been many moves made by the USFWS without regard to state. The wolf plan does suck, but that's a different story.
Would you agree that if the masses in big metro of this state wanted to keep the ungulate herds from being predated would say so and legislature would listen?
Would you agree that there has been a big push from the big metro to curb the ungulate numbers of this state because of collisions?
Would you agree that all the new elk fencing put up is keeping the elk from the road ways but unlike that of the overpasses not allowing the ungulates to be able to spread their gene pool as the main reason to build the over passes was in the first place.
Auto collisions have a huge part in what the dept. is or is not doing to help the herds.
Post by: Oh Mah on May 05, 2018, 07:18:19 PM
http://www.yakimaherald.com/news/local/efforts-target-danger-of-growing-central-washington-elk-herd/article_68743596-ea06-11e7-82c0-ff0e3f1b37dc.html
Out of thin air comes facts.But hay(get it lol hay :chuckle:) i don't have any facts and im wrong on so many levels.I gave all this time for any one calling me the fool to come up with anything and no one did.So i did,Read it and deny they want our herds low.
Post by: Oh Mah on May 05, 2018, 07:32:09 PM
That depends on how you look at it.I'll respond later when time allows. Btw, there are 4 wolves in central Washington eating all the deer and elk. (FIXED IT FOR YOU)
Would you agree that because of how the commission runs WDFW,that is controlled by legislatures is why we have a predator problem in the first place?
This is not the reason, voter initiative in the 90s is where I'd start. After that there has been many moves made by the USFWS without regard to state. The wolf plan does suck, but that's a different story.
Would you agree that if the masses in big metro of this state wanted to keep the ungulate herds from being predated would say so and legislature would listen?
Would you agree that there has been a big push from the big metro to curb the ungulate numbers of this state because of collisions?
Would you agree that all the new elk fencing put up is keeping the elk from the road ways but unlike that of the overpasses not allowing the ungulates to be able to spread their gene pool as the main reason to build the over passes was in the first place.
Auto collisions have a huge part in what the dept. is or is not doing to help the herds.
Post by: buglebrush on May 05, 2018, 07:33:15 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on May 05, 2018, 07:34:39 PM
Protecting Wolves is way way way more important to libs than protecting motorists from wildlife collisions. SMH...Can you site facts or is this just your opinion?You didn't even read the article. SMH
Post by: Oh Mah on May 05, 2018, 07:51:18 PM
Post by: Tbar on May 05, 2018, 07:54:38 PM
http://www.capitalpress.com/Opinion/Editorials/20180419/editorial-state-creates-its-own-elk-problemYou're an oddball! So is the state doing too good? You are uninformed and grabbing at anything.
Post by: Oh Mah on May 05, 2018, 08:01:13 PM
Post by: Timberstalker on May 06, 2018, 06:19:24 AM
I will be looking forward to it.In the meen time here is an article explaining how the others feel about our deer and elk in Wa.
http://www.yakimaherald.com/news/local/efforts-target-danger-of-growing-central-washington-elk-herd/article_68743596-ea06-11e7-82c0-ff0e3f1b37dc.html
Out of thin air comes facts.But hay(get it lol hay :chuckle:) i don't have any facts and im wrong on so many levels.I gave all this time for any one calling me the fool to come up with anything and no one did.So i did,Read it and deny they want our herds low.
I see this as a non problem. The wolves will lower the herd numbers far before any management practices are put in place by WDFW.
And yes there are wolves in this herd’s environment already, Oh Mah.
Post by: Dysfunctional Vet on May 06, 2018, 02:30:24 PM
http://www.capitalpress.com/Opinion/Editorials/20180419/editorial-state-creates-its-own-elk-problem
This source is an opinion piece. Typically, you would use a reputable source that cites scientific data that proves your point.
But it’s too bad we just can’t have more elk, they were there first. Lol!
Post by: KFhunter on May 24, 2018, 08:51:31 PM
I live in the blues...watch bulls year round from my living room. The winter of 2016 is a major cause of the recent declines. Wolves did not just explode here...they are all around, but not in significant numbers to result in such a decline in one year.
Post by: trophyhunt on May 24, 2018, 09:31:55 PM
lolI live in the blues...watch bulls year round from my living room. The winter of 2016 is a major cause of the recent declines. Wolves did not just explode here...they are all around, but not in significant numbers to result in such a decline in one year.
Post by: idahohuntr on May 24, 2018, 10:02:23 PM
Post by: mfswallace on May 24, 2018, 11:07:28 PM
It's not surprising in the least that those of you who support communism and socialism have clips mocking conservatives. Carry on...I'm sure your government handouts will arrive soon. :chuckle:
I see what you did there...
You've been reading your handbook and have successfully flipped the argument by labeling others as to that which you actually subscribe and they the inverse in actuality, bravo :chuckle: :peep:
Oh I guess it's not that clever as you've been found out :yike:
Post by: ribka on May 25, 2018, 05:08:51 AM
It's not surprising in the least that those of you who support communism and socialism have clips mocking conservatives. Carry on...I'm sure your government handouts will arrive soon. :chuckle:
I see what you did there...
You've been reading your handbook and have successfully flipped the argument by labeling others as to that which you actually subscribe and they the inverse in actuality, bravo :chuckle: :peep:
Oh I guess it's not that clever as you've been found out :yike:
Here’s a hint to understand better:
Idaho was recently ranked at the bottom for education in the US so not surprised so cut him some slack :rolleyes:
https://www.idahoednews.org/kevins-blog/d-plus-holding-idaho-scores-low-education-week-report/
Post by: Timberstalker on May 25, 2018, 05:12:02 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on May 25, 2018, 08:14:14 AM
Again...just like KF and the other leftist "government owes me everything" folks, your default answer for any issue is it's the governments fault. :chuckle:It's not surprising in the least that those of you who support communism and socialism have clips mocking conservatives. Carry on...I'm sure your government handouts will arrive soon. :chuckle:
I see what you did there...
You've been reading your handbook and have successfully flipped the argument by labeling others as to that which you actually subscribe and they the inverse in actuality, bravo :chuckle: :peep:
Oh I guess it's not that clever as you've been found out :yike:
Here’s a hint to understand better:
Idaho was recently ranked at the bottom for education in the US so not surprised so cut him some slack :rolleyes:
https://www.idahoednews.org/kevins-blog/d-plus-holding-idaho-scores-low-education-week-report/
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 25, 2018, 08:16:41 AM
Post by: mfswallace on May 25, 2018, 08:13:11 PM
Post by: jasnt on May 25, 2018, 09:25:43 PM
:chuckle: so far from the truth is hilarious. You are so blinded by your loyalty to the powers that be that you can’t see the facts in front of your faceAgain...just like KF and the other leftist "government owes me everything" folks, your default answer for any issue is it's the governments fault. :chuckle:It's not surprising in the least that those of you who support communism and socialism have clips mocking conservatives. Carry on...I'm sure your government handouts will arrive soon. :chuckle:
I see what you did there...
You've been reading your handbook and have successfully flipped the argument by labeling others as to that which you actually subscribe and they the inverse in actuality, bravo :chuckle: :peep:
Oh I guess it's not that clever as you've been found out :yike:
Here’s a hint to understand better:
Idaho was recently ranked at the bottom for education in the US so not surprised so cut him some slack :rolleyes:
https://www.idahoednews.org/kevins-blog/d-plus-holding-idaho-scores-low-education-week-report/