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Big Game Hunting => Deer Hunting => Topic started by: Bushcraft on April 17, 2018, 09:24:35 AM


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Title: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: Bushcraft on April 17, 2018, 09:24:35 AM
Here is a good article on mule deer and why we are fortunate to have information from the tribal bio's, whom tell the truth about what is happening with ungulate predation in Washington. The only reason we have elk in the Tacoma Watershed unit again is because of their studies about predation and control.

Page 4..

http://www.muckleshoot.nsn.us/media/45234/march%202018%20r.pdf
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: jagermiester on April 17, 2018, 09:46:20 AM
super cool.
I wish I could read the map legend though.

Kill Them Cats when you have the chance. No hound hunting means less deer.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: ctwiggs1 on April 17, 2018, 09:48:31 AM
That's a great read. 

The cool part about MIT doing the study is that they can actually do something about it.   :tup:
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: Special T on April 17, 2018, 10:38:01 AM
The irony is quite thick that the tribes have more latitude to study and address the real issues.  It explains the Love Hate relationship the department and tribes gave had with each other.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: Bushcraft on April 17, 2018, 10:52:44 AM
The irony is quite thick that the tribes have more latitude to study and address the real issues.  It explains the Love Hate relationship the department and tribes gave had with each other.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

The tribes don't suffer from the same nonsensical anti-hunting influencers (both internal and external) that WDFW does. ;)
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: Special T on April 17, 2018, 11:04:13 AM
With out a doubt.

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Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on April 17, 2018, 01:40:30 PM
Good write up.  Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: PlateauNDN on April 17, 2018, 03:38:47 PM
 :chuckle: Forget that. The only reason there's elk at all in any of the watersheds near Auburn is because the State took the Mucks to federal court for wiping out everything in there and forcing them to work with the State.

Sorry, but anything from a Muck I'll gladly not read. And Now in the last few years they magically farted out fairy dust and have rights in our territory? Give me a break.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: Cougartail on April 17, 2018, 04:01:04 PM
:chuckle: Forget that. The only reason there's elk at all in any of the watersheds near Auburn is because the State took the Mucks to federal court for wiping out everything in there and forcing them to work with the State.

Sorry, but anything from a Muck I'll gladly not read. And Now in the last few years they magically farted out fairy dust and have rights in our territory? Give me a break.

  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: jagermiester on April 17, 2018, 04:16:31 PM
:chuckle: Forget that. The only reason there's elk at all in any of the watersheds near Auburn is because the State took the Mucks to federal court for wiping out everything in there and forcing them to work with the State.

Sorry, but anything from a Muck I'll gladly not read. And Now in the last few years they magically farted out fairy dust and have rights in our territory? Give me a break.

Life's too short to hold a grudge. It is good information and it might be part of the court ruling forcing them to work with the state.

I'm not for special rights to hunt any area, but I am for good management of game and the state is not doing a very good job at it in my opinion.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: mfswallace on April 17, 2018, 09:33:39 PM
Less Cougars needed statewide!!
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: bowhunterforever on April 17, 2018, 10:35:21 PM
Less Cougars needed statewide!!
:yeah: way to many cats and predators for that matter
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: Naches Sportsman on April 17, 2018, 11:14:33 PM
The cougar quota needs to be doubled at the minimum if not tripled in some areas. In the 342, and 346, it needs to be tripled. Where I was after a Tom in late December, there were 5 other cougar tracks in 2 square miles in critical wintering grounds. A lady I know saw more than a dozen cats this past winter.

In the study area, there's way too many cougars and IMO is throwing the study off. Bring back hound hunting, or at least let the tribal members use hounds to hunt.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: bobcat on April 18, 2018, 06:08:38 AM
Bring back hound hunting, or at least let the tribal members use hounds to hunt.

They can't? I thought they don't have to follow any of our hunting regulations. Why that one?
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: ctwiggs1 on April 18, 2018, 06:25:20 AM
Bring back hound hunting, or at least let the tribal members use hounds to hunt.

They can't? I thought they don't have to follow any of our hunting regulations. Why that one?

They can.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: PlateauNDN on April 18, 2018, 06:52:56 AM
Per our laws we can't hound hunt. There's members, such as myself that would love to bring it back. It was changed but not due to the State years ago.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: ctwiggs1 on April 18, 2018, 06:54:31 AM
That's the just the Yakima tribe correct? 
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: trophyhunt on April 18, 2018, 07:09:29 AM
Here is a good article on mule deer and why we are fortunate to have information from the tribal bio's, whom tell the truth about what is happening with ungulate predation in Washington. The only reason we have elk in the Tacoma Watershed unit again is because of their studies about predation and control.

Page 4..

http://www.muckleshoot.nsn.us/media/45234/march%202018%20r.pdf
Give me a F'n break, every time I hear someone say the muckleshoots should be commended for the elk in the watershed makes me want to puke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  You don't know the past apparently, back when that tag used to be the best tag in the state??  What happened to that elk herd in a matter  of just a couple years??????????????????? Hmmm, the mucks went in there and wiped them out!!  No more elk, no more permits for us.  Then the mucks start a program to study and transfer elk back into the area and now they are hero's, nobody is that stupid to pat them on the back for that.  Gee thanks for the elk mucks, whatever!  Now on my soft side, I'm glad they saw the error of their ways and turned it around. It is now a great unit for elk, we even have permits for cows.  At least till they decide to go wacko again and slaughter them all, damn, my hard side came out again.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: trophyhunt on April 18, 2018, 07:13:33 AM
:chuckle: Forget that. The only reason there's elk at all in any of the watersheds near Auburn is because the State took the Mucks to federal court for wiping out everything in there and forcing them to work with the State.

Sorry, but anything from a Muck I'll gladly not read. And Now in the last few years they magically farted out fairy dust and have rights in our territory? Give me a break.
BOOOOOOOOOOOOM   MIC DROP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: trophyhunt on April 18, 2018, 07:15:01 AM
And Bushcraft, I am in no way calling you stupid in my post, it's just an overall opinion.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: ctwiggs1 on April 18, 2018, 07:38:28 AM
I'm no fan of what the Muckleshoot have done, but I am a fan of conservation. 

The reality is that our state is not managing these resources well, and it's going to take a coalition of unlikely allies for us to have a real future of hunting in this state.  I'll gladly be critical for past grievances (and present fisheries grievances), but I'll also gladly accept beneficial help where it's offered.

Between ridiculous liberal policies, introduction of two additional apex predators, urban sprawl, and reduced access due to permit costs, our future is not bright without some help. 

The herds in America will never be what they were before the 19th century.... But they'll continue to get worse if we don't find a way stop the problems.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: Tbar on April 18, 2018, 08:46:23 AM
Here is a good article on mule deer and why we are fortunate to have information from the tribal bio's, whom tell the truth about what is happening with ungulate predation in Washington. The only reason we have elk in the Tacoma Watershed unit again is because of their studies about predation and control.

Page 4..

http://www.muckleshoot.nsn.us/media/45234/march%202018%20r.pdf
Give me a F'n break, every time I hear someone say the muckleshoots should be commended for the elk in the watershed makes me want to puke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  You don't know the past apparently, back when that tag used to be the best tag in the state??  What happened to that elk herd in a matter  of just a couple years??????????????????? Hmmm, the mucks went in there and wiped them out!!  No more elk, no more permits for us.  Then the mucks start a program to study and transfer elk back into the area and now they are hero's, nobody is that stupid to pat them on the back for that.  Gee thanks for the elk mucks, whatever!  Now on my soft side, I'm glad they saw the error of their ways and turned it around. It is now a great unit for elk, we even have permits for cows.  At least till they decide to go wacko again and slaughter them all, damn, my hard side came out again.  Sorry.
:dunno: So angry! Just plain wrong.......
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: trophyhunt on April 18, 2018, 08:47:47 AM
I'm no fan of what the Muckleshoot have done, but I am a fan of conservation. 

The reality is that our state is not managing these resources well, and it's going to take a coalition of unlikely allies for us to have a real future of hunting in this state.  I'll gladly be critical for past grievances (and present fisheries grievances), but I'll also gladly accept beneficial help where it's offered.

Between ridiculous liberal policies, introduction of two additional apex predators, urban sprawl, and reduced access due to permit costs, our future is not bright without some help. 

The herds in America will never be what they were before the 19th century.... But they'll continue to get worse if we don't find a way stop the problems.
can you imagine how much good would come out of non natives and natives coming together and being on the same side, joining forces?  But you’ll probably see world peace before that happens, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: trophyhunt on April 18, 2018, 08:51:39 AM


[/quote]Give me a break, every time I hear someone say the muckleshoots should be commended for the elk in the watershed makes me want to puke!  You don't know the past apparently, back when that tag used to be the best tag in the state??  What happened to that elk herd in a matter  of just a couple years? Hmmm, the mucks went in there and wiped them out! No more elk, no more permits for us.  Then the mucks start a program to study and transfer elk back into the area and now they are hero's, nobody should pat them on the back for that.  Gee thanks for the elk mucks, whatever!  Now on my soft side, I'm glad they saw the error of their ways and turned it around. It is now a great unit for elk, we even have permits for cows.  At least till they decide to go wacko again and slaughter them all, damn, my hard side came out again.  Sorry.
[/quote]
 :dunno: So angry! Just plain wrong.......
[/quote]There, I fixed it for ya.  😁
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: ctwiggs1 on April 18, 2018, 08:53:12 AM
I'm no fan of what the Muckleshoot have done, but I am a fan of conservation. 

The reality is that our state is not managing these resources well, and it's going to take a coalition of unlikely allies for us to have a real future of hunting in this state.  I'll gladly be critical for past grievances (and present fisheries grievances), but I'll also gladly accept beneficial help where it's offered.

Between ridiculous liberal policies, introduction of two additional apex predators, urban sprawl, and reduced access due to permit costs, our future is not bright without some help. 

The herds in America will never be what they were before the 19th century.... But they'll continue to get worse if we don't find a way stop the problems.
can you imagine how much good would come out of non natives and natives coming together and being on the same side, joining forces?  But you’ll probably see world peace before that happens, unfortunately.

Keep in mind, the American hunter of yesterday that decimated deer, elk, bear, wolf, bison, goat, sheep, and moose herds is not the American hunter of today.  Hunters are credited for MANY of those species returns (not credited enough in my opinion).

I don't know who this wildlife bio is for MIT, but it sounds like he is putting in some good effort.  I think he should be commended, regardless of his employer's past actions.  And honestly, isn't he finally giving us an official response that we actually agree with?
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: trophyhunt on April 18, 2018, 09:06:27 AM
I'm no fan of what the Muckleshoot have done, but I am a fan of conservation. 

The reality is that our state is not managing these resources well, and it's going to take a coalition of unlikely allies for us to have a real future of hunting in this state.  I'll gladly be critical for past grievances (and present fisheries grievances), but I'll also gladly accept beneficial help where it's offered.

Between ridiculous liberal policies, introduction of two additional apex predators, urban sprawl, and reduced access due to permit costs, our future is not bright without some help. 

The herds in America will never be what they were before the 19th century.... But they'll continue to get worse if we don't find a way stop the problems.
can you imagine how much good would come out of non natives and natives coming together and being on the same side, joining forces?  But you’ll probably see world peace before that happens, unfortunately.

Keep in mind, the American hunter of yesterday that decimated deer, elk, bear, wolf, bison, goat, sheep, and moose herds is not the American hunter of today.  Hunters are credited for MANY of those species returns (not credited enough in my opinion).

I don't know who this wildlife bio is for MIT, but it sounds like he is putting in some good effort.  I think he should be commended, regardless of his employer's past actions.  And honestly, isn't he finally giving us an official response that we actually agree with?
I agree
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: ElaphusElatus on April 18, 2018, 10:06:44 AM
Give me a F'n break, every time I hear someone say the muckleshoots should be commended for the elk in the watershed makes me want to puke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  You don't know the past apparently, back when that tag used to be the best tag in the state??  What happened to that elk herd in a matter  of just a couple years??????????????????? Hmmm, the mucks went in there and wiped them out!!  No more elk, no more permits for us.  Then the mucks start a program to study and transfer elk back into the area and now they are hero's, nobody is that stupid to pat them on the back for that.  Gee thanks for the elk mucks, whatever!  Now on my soft side, I'm glad they saw the error of their ways and turned it around. It is now a great unit for elk, we even have permits for cows.  At least till they decide to go wacko again and slaughter them all, damn, my hard side came out again.  Sorry.
[/quote]

Trophy,
Not sure why you keep bashing the Mucks for what happened in the Green River when the data clearly do not support your opinion. The table 6 below from the NREHP https://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/00773/wdfw00773.pdf is from gate checks, which is accurate data, shows that during the 92-96 period state hunters took 101 antlerless elk while the tribal hunters took 53, and prior to 1992 state hunters were killing a lot of cows. State hunters took more bulls too. Yes, another hunting group will have an effect and the state permits and harvest should have been adjusted downward accordingly if the erd could not support the added harvest.

We all need to get over the past and look to the present condition and future management options. We learn from the past, but don't keep beating a dead horse with inaccuracies.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: ctwiggs1 on April 18, 2018, 10:09:56 AM
I would not consider those numbers accurate or acceptable for any debate.

Any local in the area knows of the tribal poaching issues that were happening in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s and it was BAD.  And there were ZERO consequences for the poachers.  Game Wardens were required to turn them over to the tribe, who did nothing.

The issue trophyhunt brings forward is very legitimate, but it is also mostly historical at this point.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: 92xj on April 18, 2018, 10:12:20 AM

We all need to get over the past

 :chuckle:
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: trophyhunt on April 18, 2018, 10:25:53 AM
I would not consider those numbers accurate or acceptable for any debate.

Any local in the area knows of the tribal poaching issues that were happening in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s and it was BAD.  And there were ZERO consequences for the poachers.  Game Wardens were required to turn them over to the tribe, who did nothing.

The issue trophyhunt brings forward is very legitimate, but it is also mostly historical at this point.
Thank you, couldn’t have said it better.  I have been friends with a 40+ year veteran of the Wdfw fish and game officer, that’s where I get my facts.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: ctwiggs1 on April 18, 2018, 10:30:08 AM
I would not consider those numbers accurate or acceptable for any debate.

Any local in the area knows of the tribal poaching issues that were happening in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s and it was BAD.  And there were ZERO consequences for the poachers.  Game Wardens were required to turn them over to the tribe, who did nothing.

The issue trophyhunt brings forward is very legitimate, but it is also mostly historical at this point.
Thank you, couldn’t have said it better.  I have been friends with a 40+ year veteran of the Wdfw fish and game officer, that’s where I get my facts.

My guess is we have the same friend :tup: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: wrchinook on April 18, 2018, 12:39:12 PM
The herds were all thriving and robust and sustainable before any non natives showed up that's where I get my facts non natives would of slaughtered everything if It wasn't for Roosevelt that's a fact ,we're lucky the muckleshoot are doing some studies I don't see any studies or harvest data from the tribe that don't even have to get tags and are unlimited ?that data will probably help you all to continue to hunt and be enjoying  the outdoors and some guys still bad mouth information you wouldn't have otherwise I don't get it???? NOW MY TURN TO DROP THE MIC
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: 92xj on April 18, 2018, 12:49:28 PM
The herds were thriving and robust and sustainable before the natives showed up that's where I get my facts natives would have slaughtered everything if non-natives didn't show up.  And before natives were invented the animals lived and died by natural selection
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: trophyhunt on April 18, 2018, 01:12:02 PM
The herds were all thriving and robust and sustainable before any non natives showed up that's where I get my facts non natives would of slaughtered everything if It wasn't for Roosevelt that's a fact ,we're lucky the muckleshoot are doing some studies I don't see any studies or harvest data from the tribe that don't even have to get tags and are unlimited ?that data will probably help you all to continue to hunt and be enjoying  the outdoors and some guys still bad mouth information you wouldn't have otherwise I don't get it???? NOW MY TURN TO DROP THE MIC
nope, no mic drop for you.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: ctwiggs1 on April 18, 2018, 01:19:45 PM
The herds were all thriving and robust and sustainable before any non natives showed up that's where I get my facts non natives would of slaughtered everything if It wasn't for Roosevelt that's a fact ,we're lucky the muckleshoot are doing some studies I don't see any studies or harvest data from the tribe that don't even have to get tags and are unlimited ?that data will probably help you all to continue to hunt and be enjoying  the outdoors and some guys still bad mouth information you wouldn't have otherwise I don't get it???? NOW MY TURN TO DROP THE MIC

I think if you replace non natives and natives with "humans" you would have a more accurate point.  Humans caused the decline.  Humans initiated conservation efforts. 
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: Tbar on April 18, 2018, 01:37:31 PM
The herds were thriving and robust and sustainable before the natives showed up that's where I get my facts natives would have slaughtered everything if non-natives didn't show up.  And before natives were invented the animals lived and died by natural selection
What facts do you have?  :dunno:
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: Tbar on April 18, 2018, 01:38:38 PM
The herds were all thriving and robust and sustainable before any non natives showed up that's where I get my facts non natives would of slaughtered everything if It wasn't for Roosevelt that's a fact ,we're lucky the muckleshoot are doing some studies I don't see any studies or harvest data from the tribe that don't even have to get tags and are unlimited ?that data will probably help you all to continue to hunt and be enjoying  the outdoors and some guys still bad mouth information you wouldn't have otherwise I don't get it???? NOW MY TURN TO DROP THE MIC

I think if you replace non natives and natives with "humans" you would have a more accurate point.  Humans caused the decline.  Humans initiated conservation efforts.
This is an incorrect statement.  Natives were absolutely the first practitioners of conservation.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: 92xj on April 18, 2018, 01:41:24 PM
The herds were thriving and robust and sustainable before the natives showed up that's where I get my facts natives would have slaughtered everything if non-natives didn't show up.  And before natives were invented the animals lived and died by natural selection
What facts do you have?  :dunno:
Prove me wrong.
Let's hear the facts of pre natives, pre non natives. Personal experience by any chance?
 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: Tbar on April 18, 2018, 01:43:45 PM
I would not consider those numbers accurate or acceptable for any debate.

Any local in the area knows of the tribal poaching issues that were happening in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s and it was BAD.  And there were ZERO consequences for the poachers.  Game Wardens were required to turn them over to the tribe, who did nothing.

The issue trophyhunt brings forward is very legitimate, but it is also mostly historical at this point.
Thank you, couldn’t have said it better.  I have been friends with a 40+ year veteran of the Wdfw fish and game officer, that’s where I get my facts.

My guess is we have the same friend :tup: :chuckle:
Was your friend reprimanded for harassment or treatment of natives?  Mr Chandler want to weigh in on if you had in depth discussions with him?  Just saying....
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: trophyhunt on April 18, 2018, 01:55:53 PM
I would not consider those numbers accurate or acceptable for any debate.

Any local in the area knows of the tribal poaching issues that were happening in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s and it was BAD.  And there were ZERO consequences for the poachers.  Game Wardens were required to turn them over to the tribe, who did nothing.

The issue trophyhunt brings forward is very legitimate, but it is also mostly historical at this point.
Thank you, couldn’t have said it better.  I have been friends with a 40+ year veteran of the Wdfw fish and game officer, that’s where I get my facts.

My guess is we have the same friend :tup: :chuckle:
Was your friend reprimanded for harassment or treatment of natives?  Mr Chandler want to weigh in on if you had in depth discussions with him?  Just saying....
probably, he was one that stood up to the mucks BS, like shooting bulls on private property at night time. Or the time he followed blood tracks in the snow to several dead elk while two were actually harvested by the natives?  If I could only get him to respond to your comment you'd get an ear full for hours, the truth exposed gets nasty, I promise if he wrote a book, your fellow natives would not look good in that region.  This is getting ugly now, sorry guys, but truth hurts.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: trophyhunt on April 18, 2018, 01:58:33 PM
The herds were all thriving and robust and sustainable before any non natives showed up that's where I get my facts non natives would of slaughtered everything if It wasn't for Roosevelt that's a fact ,we're lucky the muckleshoot are doing some studies I don't see any studies or harvest data from the tribe that don't even have to get tags and are unlimited ?that data will probably help you all to continue to hunt and be enjoying  the outdoors and some guys still bad mouth information you wouldn't have otherwise I don't get it???? NOW MY TURN TO DROP THE MIC

I think if you replace non natives and natives with "humans" you would have a more accurate point.  Humans caused the decline.  Humans initiated conservation efforts.
This is an incorrect statement.  Natives were absolutely the first practitioners of conservation.
not the first but we could debate that for ever, the natives took the land from others before we came along.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: ctwiggs1 on April 18, 2018, 02:01:43 PM
I'm not sure how on earth buffalo jumps are or were considered conservation.  There were *fewer* Natives which means the animals were able to reproduce and the ecosystem was able to harmonize *despite* their hunting.

As for the GW... Yes, he constantly enforced laws on poachers regardless of who it was.  And yes, he was reprimanded for it.  Why?  Because the WDFW doesn't "give a @#$% about elk", per Deputy Chief Cenci.  For those of us who do, and appreciate the enforcement of law, we salute you Mr. GW. :salute:

 :tup:
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: trophyhunt on April 18, 2018, 02:05:03 PM
I'm not sure how on earth buffalo jumps are or were considered conservation.  There were *fewer* Natives which means the animals were able to reproduce and the ecosystem was able to harmonize *despite* their hunting.

As for the GW... Yes, he constantly enforced laws on poachers regardless of who it was.  And yes, he was reprimanded for it.  Why?  Because the WDFW doesn't "give a @#$% about elk", per Deputy Chief Cenci.  For those of us who do, and appreciate the enforcement of law, we salute you Mr. GW. :salute:

 :tup:
:tup: :tup:
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: nwwanderer on April 18, 2018, 05:21:19 PM
Certainly getting away from mule deer management, but what the hay!!!  More than 90% of all species, a human invention trying to name everything, are extinct and the vast majority before man was ever on the scene.  This rock we live on is constantly changing and the 'balance' we hear so much about is another human invention.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: Green broke on April 18, 2018, 08:24:58 PM
Here is a good article on mule deer and why we are fortunate to have information from the tribal bio's, whom tell the truth about what is happening with ungulate predation in Washington. The only reason we have elk in the Tacoma Watershed unit again is because of their studies about predation and control.

Page 4..

http://www.muckleshoot.nsn.us/media/45234/march%202018%20r.pdf
Give me a F'n break, every time I hear someone say the muckleshoots should be commended for the elk in the watershed makes me want to puke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  You don't know the past apparently, back when that tag used to be the best tag in the state??  What happened to that elk herd in a matter  of just a couple years??????????????????? Hmmm, the mucks went in there and wiped them out!!  No more elk, no more permits for us.  Then the mucks start a program to study and transfer elk back into the area and now they are hero's, nobody is that stupid to pat them on the back for that.  Gee thanks for the elk mucks, whatever!  Now on my soft side, I'm glad they saw the error of their ways and turned it around. It is now a great unit for elk, we even have permits for cows.  At least till they decide to go wacko again and slaughter them all, damn, my hard side came out again.  Sorry.
Go all wacko? Look in the mirror! We walk the walk, period! Show one study the state is doing to benefit deer or elk! Their predator prey study? Yeah right..... Maybe to see how robust they can grow predator populations, they certainly can't efficiently manipulate the predators in ways tribes can. You like to cast stones but have never walked the walk yourself. Let me guess, you have been a long standing steward of conservation.   :dunno:
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: Green broke on April 18, 2018, 08:29:29 PM
I would not consider those numbers accurate or acceptable for any debate.

Any local in the area knows of the tribal poaching issues that were happening in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s and it was BAD.  And there were ZERO consequences for the poachers.  Game Wardens were required to turn them over to the tribe, who did nothing.

The issue trophyhunt brings forward is very legitimate, but it is also mostly historical at this point.
Thank you, couldn’t have said it better.  I have been friends with a 40+ year veteran of the Wdfw fish and game officer, that’s where I get my facts.

My guess is we have the same friend :tup: :chuckle:
Was your friend reprimanded for harassment or treatment of natives?  Mr Chandler want to weigh in on if you had in depth discussions with him?  Just saying....
probably, he was one that stood up to the mucks BS, like shooting bulls on private property at night time. Or the time he followed blood tracks in the snow to several dead elk while two were actually harvested by the natives?  If I could only get him to respond to your comment you'd get an ear full for hours, the truth exposed gets nasty, I promise if he wrote a book, your fellow natives would not look good in that region.  This is getting ugly now, sorry guys, but truth hurts.
Bruce was a sore loser, mad that tribes could hunt when he couldn't.  I could write a more compelling book on his tribal harassment. If he wants to respond to my comments, he has my number.  He has a long history of harassment.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: Green broke on April 18, 2018, 08:32:53 PM
That's a great read. 

The cool part about MIT doing the study is that they can actually do something about it.   :tup:
:yeah:
And will do something about it.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: ElaphusElatus on April 18, 2018, 09:22:11 PM
Per our laws we can't hound hunt. There's members, such as myself that would love to bring it back. It was changed but not due to the State years ago.

Plat:
Maybe request a change, propose YN have some hound hunting for predators, and offset harvest effects. State folks cannot do anything now that it has closed. There appears to be evidence that predators are having an effect. Kill one cougar, save 50 elk and deer.  It adds up quickly.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: Green broke on April 21, 2018, 10:13:31 PM
I would not consider those numbers accurate or acceptable for any debate.

Any local in the area knows of the tribal poaching issues that were happening in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s and it was BAD.  And there were ZERO consequences for the poachers.  Game Wardens were required to turn them over to the tribe, who did nothing.

The issue trophyhunt brings forward is very legitimate, but it is also mostly historical at this point.
Thank you, couldn’t have said it better.  I have been friends with a 40+ year veteran of the Wdfw fish and game officer, that’s where I get my facts.

My guess is we have the same friend :tup: :chuckle:
Was your friend reprimanded for harassment or treatment of natives?  Mr Chandler want to weigh in on if you had in depth discussions with him?  Just saying....
probably, he was one that stood up to harassed the mucks BS, like shooting bulls on private property at night time. Or the time he followed blood tracks in the snow to several dead elk while two were actually harvested by the natives?  If I could only get him to respond to your comment you'd get an ear full for hours, the truth exposed gets nasty, I promise if he wrote a book, your fellow natives would not look good in that region.  This is getting ugly now, sorry guys, but truth hurts.
Fixed it for you.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: ctwiggs1 on April 21, 2018, 10:15:27 PM
You’re right.  The MIT have a shining history in conservation. 
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: Green broke on April 21, 2018, 10:24:02 PM
You’re right.  The MIT have a shining history in conservation.
If you are writing history in the present and have learned, adapted and changed things for the better where are you finding fault?  We all have less than admiral instances.  State hunters are not exempt in any way shape or form.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: Green broke on April 21, 2018, 10:32:28 PM
You’re right.  The MIT have a shining history in conservation.
Again, show me your commitment to conservation.  Show me the WDFWs commitment.  Please show me anything legitimate that will show a commitment to recognize reality much less deal with it.  They will just as soon allow nature balance itself.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: AL WORRELLS KID on April 25, 2018, 11:09:12 AM
"Doe survival and fawn productivity
are the keys to having a healthy buck hunting opportunity."

Shepard's don't make Sheep,
Sheep make Sheep!
If you want more Sheep out in your pasture... then let the Sheep do they're thing and you're bound to see more Big Ram's running around out there.
Get control of your Sheep Dog and don't let him nip at their heels as much and you will have Happier Sheep and the "Little Nippers" won't be hanging around the pasture getting into trouble.
Doug
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: chinookie23 on April 26, 2018, 11:37:28 AM
:chuckle: Forget that. The only reason there's elk at all in any of the watersheds near Auburn is because the State took the Mucks to federal court for wiping out everything in there and forcing them to work with the State.

Sorry, but anything from a Muck I'll gladly not read. And Now in the last few years they magically farted out fairy dust and have rights in our territory? Give me a break.

and what exactly do the yakama tribe do for conservation of the wildlife on the eastside NOTHING that's what, hunt with NO tags or tracking of any kind of harvest data at all. they used to have herds so big on there reservation in the closed area and now I talk to yakama friends who used to see the herds in the area. now they say its hard to even go out there and see bucks if any at all.......... Plat you should look back at the history and your family tree you probably have relatives all over in Muckleshoot :) Just hacking you on that one........  kind of
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: PlateauNDN on April 26, 2018, 01:24:36 PM
There's herds. They just got smart and stopped hanging out by the road where majority of the "hunters" hunt. Majority road hunt, not all but majority.

The animals learn where they will die and adapt for survival. There's plenty of animals they "hunters" just have to get out of their truck and learn to hunt not drive around all day.

I can go back as far as 10 generation on either side and all Yakama and warm springs Tribes. I can break it down even more into the Bands.

The difference with Mucks and us is we call it like it is. We don't hide our trophy hunting like mucks. Their regs say 1 per species but they can hunt on designated for as many other as they want and keep the heads? I seen 1 muck last year advertise on FB that anybody who wants meat just call him and give him their "designated hunter tag" and he'll get them elk.

That's just like the kettle....well, you know the rest. :chuckle:
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: savagehunter on April 26, 2018, 08:59:18 PM
Yeah I can't believe how the Indians decimated the Buffalo herds too. I mean they always take more than their share. Give me a break white people poach too. Meth heads with rifles don't need to sleep.  Antis  are never gonna go for unfair advantage of hounds because they don't read these studies. More time hunting predators is hard to come by for working folks. MIT doesn't have the answers the state can't afford to do anything wtf.
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: Eli346 on April 29, 2018, 12:36:17 PM
Good article!
Title: Re: Eastside Mule Deer Survival Study Update
Post by: Deerelk37 on May 06, 2018, 10:49:32 AM
I’ve heard a story or two from the 80s or 90s,I assume, about mucks going into greenwater and lining the bottom of a road that loops around a ridge or older clearcut with a bunch of “standers”. They would then proceed to have children run scream blow whistles etc from the top and shoot any animal that came out and load them all on a flatbed.

I haven’t hunted the 352/356 in years but after I stopped there I was considering going back and a buddy told me not to bother, natives had been picking it clean and drastically reduced the herd numbers of deer. This was in the mid 2000’s. I can neither confirm or deny both of these “stories”. But what a shame that would be, I used to see MONSTER bucks in those units. Mostly during elk season of course  :chuckle:

What I do know is the past is the past and for the future to have any chance we need to work together and work towards accurate studies and solutions. I found the study very informative and at the very least will always have a cougar take handy.
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