Post by: jackelope on April 20, 2018, 03:18:38 PM
First of all...access. Access was by far my biggest challenge. I've always been a hiker and backpacker, but I've only hunted a few times in the backcountry where I stayed out there, carried my tent and all my gear on my back. I suppose not all of the mountain goat permit hunts in WA would require it, but most of them do I'd guess. That or make long hikes every day to get to the goats. I heard about 1 guy who was walking a really long way in and out every day to get to the goats. I also heard about a guy who drew a tag and didn't realize it was so difficult and didn't end up hunting at all. I truly believe that there is plenty of time to learn the area you draw assuming you have some time during the summer to spend scouting. I don't believe you need to know the unit inside and out before you draw. It obviously helps, but goats are relatively easy to find.
Access concerns lead to the next self-imposed set of challenges. Hair. The horns on a goat are pretty small really and pretty un-impressive. The trophy in my eyes was the hair. I really wanted to wait for the hair. We didn't see the good hair start until mid October. If you want to wait for good hair, you really need to keep access in the forefront of your plans. We really almost got screwed and I was very close to losing any opportunity I had of killing a goat because of a metric crap ton of snow. When the big hair is growing good, the snow is also flying. Be aware of where you'll need to be if you want a goat with long hair and whether or not you'll be able to get there. They're real mountains with cliffs and big snow and all kinds of stuff that is not always user friendly.
3rd...conservation. If you draw a tag and it's not in the "Olympics Mountain Goat Conflict Areas" where they encourage you to shoot the first goat you see, do the best you can to learn the difference between a billy and a nanny. There are tons of great, extremely helpful resources out there to help with this. The state will send you a DVD, a laminated card, the state of Alaska test. The Rocky Mountain Goat Alliance has some great resources out there too. This year, the state will require a goat gender ID test before you can buy your license. All good stuff.
4th- This one might be a little selfish of me....Do the tag justice. It's a once in a lifetime thing. Put the time in and do the work. If you're not able to handle the country or don't have the time, don't apply. If you need help, ask for it. If you don't have the gear, borrow it, buy it, invite your buddy who has it. Call me. Whatever. Just be prepared to have what could be the best time you've ever had hunting and understand what you're getting yourself into. I learned a lot. I mean, a lot. I asked my friends who have a lot more experience backpacking and mountain hunting than I have probably an annoyingly large number of questions.
5th and the most important one.... Enjoy it. Wherever you end up drawing, you're going to hunt in some of the greatest country this state has to offer and you'll be hunting one of the coolest critters on the planet.
And I'm sure hoping one of you guys draws a tag and invites me, because I sure hope I get to go along on another goat hunt in my lifetime. It was an awesome experience that I'll never forget.
Hope this doesn't sound silly. I just can't accurately express how much I didn't think about when I applied, how much I learned and how many people were willing to help out.
Good luck to all of you in the 2018 draws.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180420/6565d31fa7411a581305abd497c45de6.jpg)
Post by: Timberstalker on April 20, 2018, 03:27:22 PM
Thanks for sharing. I'm hoping to draw by 2050.
Post by: shanevg on April 20, 2018, 03:38:24 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on April 20, 2018, 03:39:07 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 20, 2018, 03:39:15 PM
Man I want a goat tag!
You deserve one.
Post by: jackelope on April 20, 2018, 03:39:43 PM
Thanks for all the pointers heads up and that awesome photo. :tup:
That billy had small horns, but man....what a coat of hair on him.
Post by: Oh Mah on April 20, 2018, 03:40:51 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 20, 2018, 03:43:30 PM
Yes very cool hair,Whats the mount gonna be?
That's not the billy I killed. Mine had bigger horns and less hair. That thing in the picture had amazing hair.
Cedar River Taxidermy is doing a wall pedestal for me. Head tilted slightly down and to the left with some habitat...maybe a little rocks or something.
Post by: Rainier10 on April 20, 2018, 03:53:12 PM
The hike out with your goat was brutal. I’m sure it would have been easier if I was the guy who shot it. You were on cloud nine and invincible after you tagged out. I want to be that excited some day.
Anyone applying should read your post and take it to heart.
Post by: Oh Mah on April 20, 2018, 03:59:00 PM
Awesome,Can't wait to see the pics of that.Yes very cool hair,Whats the mount gonna be?
That's not the billy I killed. Mine had bigger horns and less hair. That thing in the picture had amazing hair.
Cedar River Taxidermy is doing a wall pedestal for me. Head tilted slightly down and to the left with some habitat...maybe a little rocks or something.
Post by: time2hunt on April 20, 2018, 04:02:01 PM
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Post by: dwils233 on April 20, 2018, 04:06:43 PM
Post by: Tbar on April 20, 2018, 04:07:15 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 20, 2018, 04:16:21 PM
To all future goat hunters - watch them pee. Its the most effective way and can save you a ton of boot leather.
This!!
It takes a lot of patience or just good/lucky timing.
Post by: zwickeyman on April 20, 2018, 04:24:16 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on April 20, 2018, 04:25:10 PM
To all future goat hunters - watch them pee. Its the most effective way and can save you a ton of boot leather.I watched one pee. I had no idea what it meant. Then Josh gave me a tutorial with charts and diagrams that he had on his phone. Thank goodness had that. After a lengthy discussion and 10-15 "I'm gonna shoot that goat" he finally did. Absolutely smoked him.
Even with all the studying that he did on gender he was still nervous as all get out approaching the dead goat.
It was really important to Josh from a conservation standpoint to not shoot a nanny. I really thought there was a chance that we were gonna walk away from that goat and go try to find another one.
The population is really fragile and it is important to shoot a billy. I didn't get that before the hunt but after watching Josh be so strong minded about it I plan to be just as steadfast about shooting a billy if I ever "draw long before I am due".
Post by: Rainier10 on April 20, 2018, 04:27:16 PM
Both of these, you were patient and I was darn lucky to see him pee, not to mention a little lucky to get across the rock face to where he was at.To all future goat hunters - watch them pee. Its the most effective way and can save you a ton of boot leather.
This!!
It takes a lot of patience or just good/lucky timing.
Post by: MisplacedAlaskan on April 20, 2018, 04:38:01 PM
I agree that the long hair is the best part of the trophy, the nicest goats I’ve gotten have been in November and December. Good luck to everyone putting in, they are an amazing animal, my favorite to hunt.
Post by: Bill W on April 20, 2018, 05:08:27 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on April 20, 2018, 05:19:28 PM
Great pics so far.
Post by: jackelope on April 20, 2018, 05:25:03 PM
I was not feeling confident with this view.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180421/315944fd81d6e505982f955f7d134cff.jpg)
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 20, 2018, 05:41:42 PM
Post by: White Pass Outfitters on April 20, 2018, 06:42:34 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on April 20, 2018, 06:47:02 PM
Post by: mp.hunter on April 20, 2018, 06:53:00 PM
Josh, excellent post, information that most including myself don’t think about when applying. Thank you, this is my year so I will invite you along!
You need to draw your WA elk tag first...😂
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Post by: Jpmiller on April 20, 2018, 06:59:58 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on April 20, 2018, 07:04:50 PM
shoot, the blues is going to heck, by the time I draw it, it will be the same quality of the toutle tag 😭. Ghost pointing elk this year w wyoming elk a done deal.Josh, excellent post, information that most including myself don’t think about when applying. Thank you, this is my year so I will invite you along!
You need to draw your WA elk tag first...😂
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Post by: mp.hunter on April 20, 2018, 07:08:24 PM
shoot, the blues is going to heck, by the time I draw it, it will be the same quality of the toutle tag 😭. Ghost pointing elk this year w wyoming elk a done deal.Josh, excellent post, information that most including myself don’t think about when applying. Thank you, this is my year so I will invite you along!
You need to draw your WA elk tag first...😂
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I hear ya, excited for your hunt in WY...good luck
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Post by: cem3434 on April 20, 2018, 07:15:11 PM
Or spend the money and have an outfitter put you right on the goats and then does all the work for you afterwords. It is once in a Lifetime time tag...
:yeah: this is an option for many guys that don't have the time to scout or aren't in shape to hike 10 miles per day.
Post by: shanevg on April 20, 2018, 07:39:12 PM
One tip I'd add is make sure the area you want to hunt has goats in it (before applying for the tag). We hunted an area up above Mt Baker and just to the west of the North Cascades NP. It had 10 tags available the year we hunted and 0 the next. Didn't have the number of billies WDFW thought. Also, check out the terrain first to be sure you can handle it. The area we were in was the worst climbable stuff I'd ever seen. Further down around Alpines Lakes has way better terrain. The last goat we were after was a little over a mile from the parking lot and it took 8 hrs to get up there and 3 hours back down.
Oh man what I’d give to have some tags in that unit again!
Post by: trophyhunt on April 20, 2018, 07:46:09 PM
Post by: shanevg on April 20, 2018, 08:21:59 PM
Shanevg, didn’t you draw a goat tag in wa before?
Nope. 21 points and counting.
Post by: White Pass Outfitters on April 20, 2018, 10:15:21 PM
Post by: bearpaw on April 21, 2018, 12:06:08 AM
My little Bro also said screw it hes going to AK on a $10,000 + Goat hunt this year. To much for me with going to New Zealand next yr. He will be up hunting on his 50 B day. Kinda cool
good luck to him, I'm headed for Alaska or Canada as soon as I can swing it for a goat
Post by: DeerThug on April 21, 2018, 07:18:00 AM
I was really lucky in finding a goat before the season that i wanted and was even more lucky to find him again when season opened. By far the most memorable and earned hunt i have ever had.
Post by: bobcat on April 21, 2018, 07:51:37 AM
Post by: nwwanderer on April 21, 2018, 07:53:16 AM
Post by: jackelope on April 21, 2018, 08:30:13 AM
Well said. When I had my goat tag everything you said was what i experienced. A tough hunt for sure. I knew that waiting later in the season would bring weather that would be beyond my capabilities. I spent almost every weekend in the summer in the back country deciding where to hunt and getting in shape. And it is true it can be dangerous and not everyone can do it.
I was really lucky in finding a goat before the season that i wanted and was even more lucky to find him again when season opened. By far the most memorable and earned hunt i have ever had.
I love that video. I've probably watched it 10 times.
Post by: Timberstalker on April 21, 2018, 08:34:27 AM
Post by: wildweeds on April 21, 2018, 08:46:36 AM
Post by: Ironhead on April 21, 2018, 09:01:50 AM
Post by: jackelope on April 21, 2018, 09:02:59 AM
Great Post Josh, Thank you for the great information. I am at max points for goat and not holding my breath for a tag in Washington any time soon. So I put a deposit down to hunt goats in AK. The total cost of the hunt not including gratuities and commercial air line tickets is 4,250.00. Sorry I cant divulge the name of the outfitter but hunts like these come up from time to time. Good luck to all in their quest for a Mountain Goat.
So that means you're gonna draw WA this year too then. When you do, let me know. I'm there.
Post by: Ironhead on April 21, 2018, 09:10:47 AM
You will be the first one I call!Great Post Josh, Thank you for the great information. I am at max points for goat and not holding my breath for a tag in Washington any time soon. So I put a deposit down to hunt goats in AK. The total cost of the hunt not including gratuities and commercial air line tickets is 4,250.00. Sorry I cant divulge the name of the outfitter but hunts like these come up from time to time. Good luck to all in their quest for a Mountain Goat.
So that means you're gonna draw WA this year too then. When you do, let me know. I'm there.
Post by: White Pass Outfitters on April 21, 2018, 09:17:34 AM
Post by: Naches Sportsman on April 21, 2018, 10:02:31 AM
This year will be even harder for backpackers in the Goat Rocks due the east and west permits. Eastside not much access without stock and the 1000 line gone...But some real nice Goats up there.
1000 road and 1502 scheduled to be open Nov 1 2018. Wildcat 2020.
Post by: teanawayslayer on April 21, 2018, 10:11:31 AM
Great Post Josh, Thank you for the great information. I am at max points for goat and not holding my breath for a tag in Washington any time soon. So I put a deposit down to hunt goats in AK. The total cost of the hunt not including gratuities and commercial air line tickets is 4,250.00. Sorry I cant divulge the name of the outfitter but hunts like these come up from time to time. Good luck to all in their quest for a Mountain Goat.thats a score!
Post by: j_h_nimrod on April 21, 2018, 10:35:22 AM
Great Post Josh, Thank you for the great information. I am at max points for goat and not holding my breath for a tag in Washington any time soon. So I put a deposit down to hunt goats in AK. The total cost of the hunt not including gratuities and commercial air line tickets is 4,250.00. Sorry I cant divulge the name of the outfitter but hunts like these come up from time to time. Good luck to all in their quest for a Mountain Goat.thats a score!
Sure is, 7 day hunts are generally $7-10k+
Good luck!
Post by: The scout on April 21, 2018, 11:03:23 AM
Post by: jackelope on April 21, 2018, 11:23:15 AM
I'm going to sort of disagree with you regarding folks shooting nannies though. It's a fragile deal, and killing a nanny makes a big dent in the herd, mostly for the future. I firmly believe that people should do whatever possible within their abilities to not shoot a nanny. I know that accidents happen and it is what it is...but I don't agree with shooting a nanny just to notch your tag. In the end if I count up the goats we saw, it was at least 50/50 nanny to billy. I really believe that I saw more Billie's than nannies.
Post by: The scout on April 21, 2018, 11:37:03 AM
Post by: jackelope on April 21, 2018, 11:55:57 AM
Post by: PlateauNDN on April 21, 2018, 12:03:26 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on April 21, 2018, 12:39:09 PM
Where was this when I..................:chuckle: You seriously crack me up Plat.
This thread really is good info that you don’t think about until you have been there and you realize it’s all true.
I’m guessing you agree with most everything Josh said to start this thread. I know I do.
I almost feel like his post should be right on the goat hunt page of the regs.
Post by: Tbar on April 21, 2018, 01:19:45 PM
I’m not trying to start an argument, not everyone prepares themselves to get good at identifying them before there hunt, and I am only talking about what I have seen, not speculating on what I think people do. I think most of the time it isn’t intentional.It does ad a bit saying you did it all on your own, I just hope I can draw a tag while I can still hike those hills.I agree that many get overwhelmed and in rare instances there may be an excuse to shoot a nanny. It literally is as simple as watching them pee. This only requires observation, they will pee. It's inconsiderate and amazing how many nannies are taken. It has such an adverse impact and is literally unenforceable so managers have to error on the side of caution and hunters (so far) have not done their due diligence. There will hopefully be an improvement when the test is required.
Post by: jackelope on April 21, 2018, 02:10:41 PM
I’m not trying to start an argument, not everyone prepares themselves to get good at identifying them before there hunt, and I am only talking about what I have seen, not speculating on what I think people do. I think most of the time it isn’t intentional.It does ad a bit saying you did it all on your own, I just hope I can draw a tag while I can still hike those hills.I agree that many get overwhelmed and in rare instances there may be an excuse to shoot a nanny. It literally is as simple as watching them pee. This only requires observation, they will pee. It's inconsiderate and amazing how many nannies are taken. It has such an adverse impact and is literally unenforceable so managers have to error on the side of caution and hunters (so far) have not done their due diligence. There will hopefully be an improvement when the test is required.
I suspect that tag numbers would probably increase if, for no other reason, less nannies got shot. Also hoping that the test helps this situation. I have a friend who feels really, really strongly about this. He says "there's no excuse for killing a nanny". I won't judge that hard, but there are lots of strong feelings on this topic. I was really really confident that mine was a billy, but I still was at least slightly doubtful until I saw his family jewels and I studied my butt off.
Post by: Tbar on April 21, 2018, 03:10:57 PM
Your friend has a tremendous understanding of mountain goat conservation, it's as simple as that. The visual aspect of goats is nearly impossible for a novice to comprehend, especially when the hair grows. An old billy is a big white goat with small horns, a nanny is a big white goat with small horns, a sub adult is a big (in appearance) white goat with small horns. You MUST pay attention to the nuances.I’m not trying to start an argument, not everyone prepares themselves to get good at identifying them before there hunt, and I am only talking about what I have seen, not speculating on what I think people do. I think most of the time it isn’t intentional.It does ad a bit saying you did it all on your own, I just hope I can draw a tag while I can still hike those hills.I agree that many get overwhelmed and in rare instances there may be an excuse to shoot a nanny. It literally is as simple as watching them pee. This only requires observation, they will pee. It's inconsiderate and amazing how many nannies are taken. It has such an adverse impact and is literally unenforceable so managers have to error on the side of caution and hunters (so far) have not done their due diligence. There will hopefully be an improvement when the test is required.
I suspect that tag numbers would probably increase if, for no other reason, less nannies got shot. Also hoping that the test helps this situation. I have a friend who feels really, really strongly about this. He says "there's no excuse for killing a nanny". I won't judge that hard, but there are lots of strong feelings on this topic. I was really really confident that mine was a billy, but I still was at least slightly doubtful until I saw his family jewels and I studied my butt off.
Post by: PlateauNDN on April 21, 2018, 03:18:40 PM
Post by: Timberstalker on April 21, 2018, 03:38:33 PM
:chuckle: there's a word I bet is killing jackelope in Tbars post. :chuckle:
The spelling and grammer (lol) nazi is about to strike.
Post by: Tbar on April 21, 2018, 03:41:32 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 21, 2018, 04:25:11 PM
Post by: PlateauNDN on April 21, 2018, 05:14:42 PM
autocorrect!+ fat fingers....
I get that quite a bit to. I upgraded my phone and now it's worse. It's like having jackalope inside your phone watching your every word...
Oh wait... :tinfoil:
Post by: jackelope on April 21, 2018, 06:02:01 PM
Post by: Timberstalker on April 21, 2018, 06:24:29 PM
autocorrect!+ fat fingers....
I get that quite a bit to. I upgraded my phone and now it's worse. It's like having jackalope inside your phone watching your every word...
Oh wait... :tinfoil:
*Jackelope.
Post by: PlateauNDN on April 21, 2018, 08:03:19 PM
autocorrect!+ fat fingers....
I get that quite a bit to. I upgraded my phone and now it's worse. It's like having jackalope inside your phone watching your every word...
Oh wait... :tinfoil:
*Jackelope.
:lol4: :lol4: :lol4: I've typed that into my phone so many times overriding the autocorrect that my auto corrected my attempt to see if he'd notice my intentional spelling error. And he didn't. :chuckle:
Post by: Timberstalker on April 21, 2018, 08:07:40 PM
Post by: PlateauNDN on April 21, 2018, 08:08:47 PM
:dunno:
:dunno:
Post by: jackelope on April 21, 2018, 08:11:40 PM
Post by: jdb on April 21, 2018, 08:14:45 PM
Post by: shanevg on April 21, 2018, 08:21:34 PM
Ironically, I hear people excuse themselves for shooting nannies because they were “dry” nannies. Unfortunately, most goats don’t start having babies until 4-5 years of age. Max fecundity (“reproductiveness”) is age 6-10 and nannies have been none to give birth until ages 14 or 15. From age 9-10+ nannies will often give birth every other year until death. So unless your shooting a 15 year old nanny you probably aren’t shooting a “dry” nanny.
One nite - some states with introduced goats (Colorado, Utah, Kodiak Island, etc) are able to manage for abnormally high reproduction by targeting the nanny population. Those are unique circumstances not possible with native herds in states like Idaho, Washington, and Montana (except in crazy Mountains which is an introduced herd).
Bottom line: Don’t shoot nannies!
Post by: Jackjr on April 24, 2018, 10:47:58 AM
Man I want a goat tag!
You deserve one.
I second that👍🏻
Post by: nitroelk on April 24, 2018, 11:24:33 AM
Post by: jackelope on April 24, 2018, 01:35:53 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 24, 2018, 02:11:51 PM
This is good stuff for those with questions.
Post by: X-Force on April 24, 2018, 02:28:28 PM
Post by: Tbar on April 24, 2018, 02:34:40 PM
Its silly that WDFW hasn't made permits Billy only. People are provided enough information to make the correct judgment call.Billy only would not be enforceable, just like bears. I agree with the education portion though. If the rank and file hunters become more responsible in terms of billy harvest they will dilute the justification of special treatment to special interest.
Post by: X-Force on April 24, 2018, 03:20:11 PM
Its silly that WDFW hasn't made permits Billy only. People are provided enough information to make the correct judgment call.Billy only would not be enforceable, just like bears. I agree with the education portion though. If the rank and file hunters become more responsible in terms of billy harvest they will dilute the justification of special treatment to special interest.
It’s enforceable other states do it.
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on April 24, 2018, 03:42:39 PM
Billy only is enforceable and should be implemented. I was able to see the scrotum swing on mine, another giveaway (we also saw the smaller billy with mine pee).
Post by: shanevg on April 24, 2018, 03:45:33 PM
Its silly that WDFW hasn't made permits Billy only. People are provided enough information to make the correct judgment call.Billy only would not be enforceable, just like bears. I agree with the education portion though. If the rank and file hunters become more responsible in terms of billy harvest they will dilute the justification of special treatment to special interest.
It’s enforceable other states do it.
What states? I can't think of any off the top of my head.
Post by: Tbar on April 24, 2018, 03:57:51 PM
Okay... :dunno: With laws here for a gross misdemeanors it's criminal, so you have to prove intent. Also other states that have tried have learned that it often leads to wastage when nannies are shot, resulting in two dead goats. States like Alaska have a points quota weighted heavily when nannies are shot. Just out of curiosity which states are Billy only?Its silly that WDFW hasn't made permits Billy only. People are provided enough information to make the correct judgment call.Billy only would not be enforceable, just like bears. I agree with the education portion though. If the rank and file hunters become more responsible in terms of billy harvest they will dilute the justification of special treatment to special interest.
It’s enforceable other states do it.
Post by: Bob33 on April 24, 2018, 04:05:35 PM
Post by: idaho guy on April 24, 2018, 04:17:33 PM
Its silly that WDFW hasn't made permits Billy only. People are provided enough information to make the correct judgment call.Billy only would not be enforceable, just like bears. I agree with the education portion though. If the rank and file hunters become more responsible in terms of billy harvest they will dilute the justification of special treatment to special interest.
It’s enforceable other states do it.
Montana has a nannie only hunt in the crazys why wouldn't billy only be the same? :dunno:
Post by: PlateauNDN on April 24, 2018, 04:20:57 PM
I can actually related pretty well from my antelope hunting experience. A young buck antelope and a female antelope can both have horns of very similar size. The only was to visually distinguish them is that the bucks have a black cheek patch, and females don't. However, when you're looking at one straight one (which is typical) at 300 to 400 yards (which is typical) it can become extremely difficult because you can't even see the cheek much of the time. Factor in that the critters are about to take off at 50 mph and you need to "shoot now" or forget it. I have more times than I care to admit been pleased to see a set of balls (or vice versa depending on the license) when I got to the animal.
:yeah: I got within couple hundred yards and at that range they all look the same.
Post by: X-Force on April 24, 2018, 06:24:15 PM
Its silly that WDFW hasn't made permits Billy only. People are provided enough information to make the correct judgment call.Billy only would not be enforceable, just like bears. I agree with the education portion though. If the rank and file hunters become more responsible in terms of billy harvest they will dilute the justification of special treatment to special interest.
It’s enforceable other states do it.
Montana has a nannie only hunt in the crazys why wouldn't billy only be the same? :dunno:
Exactly my thoughts. I don’t believe there is a state that has a billy only season but lots of states have female only seasons so what’s the difference in enforcement?
Post by: Tbar on April 24, 2018, 06:58:13 PM
Not trying to be argumentative or judge but did you guys know it was a nanny before the shot? I can tell you (from experience) that after watching a 51 inch billy for two plus hours, watching him pee, being positive it was a monster billy, looking at the pads, going over every physical and mental checklist and looking at reference pictures- I knew it was a billy when we flipped him over. Again not trying to judge but cannot emphasize enough on how difficult telling the difference is. I've never been so humbled by such an awsome animal for so many reasons.Its silly that WDFW hasn't made permits Billy only. People are provided enough information to make the correct judgment call.Billy only would not be enforceable, just like bears. I agree with the education portion though. If the rank and file hunters become more responsible in terms of billy harvest they will dilute the justification of special treatment to special interest.
It’s enforceable other states do it.
Montana has a nannie only hunt in the crazys why wouldn't billy only be the same? :dunno:
Exactly my thoughts. I don’t believe there is a state that has a billy only season but lots of states have female only seasons so what’s the difference in enforcement?
Post by: jackelope on April 24, 2018, 08:00:08 PM
Post by: shanevg on April 24, 2018, 08:00:24 PM
Its silly that WDFW hasn't made permits Billy only. People are provided enough information to make the correct judgment call.Billy only would not be enforceable, just like bears. I agree with the education portion though. If the rank and file hunters become more responsible in terms of billy harvest they will dilute the justification of special treatment to special interest.
It’s enforceable other states do it.
Montana has a nannie only hunt in the crazys why wouldn't billy only be the same? :dunno:
Lots of states have nanny only seasons but IMO knowing something is 100% a nanny is much easier than knowing something is 100% billy. There are decent sized bullies (say a 45-46” goat with long thinner horns) that would be very hard to distinguiish from a nanny. On the other hand, an average nanny is really quite easy to disitngiush and if it has built like characteristics, it’s also easy to pass for a different nanny. Plus the fact that nannies are often in larger herds where lone goats which are often but not always billies are often misidentified. Again on a nanny only hunt, it’s really easy to pass on that goat.
Another factor is that the science that goes into nanny only hunts really leaves a lot of room for error. The state is purposely trying to reduce herd size when giving nanny only tags so while misidentification would be unfortunate, it really doesn’t change what they are trying to do with the herd.
I’ll just say, there is a reason there are nanny only hunts in some states but no billy only hunts in any states that I’m aware of.
Post by: Tbar on April 24, 2018, 08:11:12 PM
Deep down inside I knew mine was a billy but I have self doubt issues sometimes. Maybe call it self confidence. I second guess myself a lot on some things. The more important, the harder it is for me at times to make those types of decisions. I did a lot of hemming and hawing on the mountain that day. I was positive the whole time, but I wasn’t:yeah:
I've been on hunts with both 365+" and 390" elk both times I knew with out a single doubt giants hit the ground and was literally speechless before we ever approached. It's not that simple with goats.
Post by: PlateauNDN on April 24, 2018, 08:15:00 PM
Post by: lewy on April 24, 2018, 08:41:10 PM
Post by: j_h_nimrod on April 24, 2018, 08:51:25 PM
Read Douglas Chadwick - A Beast the Color of Winter
Some good information and good characteristics and behaviors of billies and nannies plus a lot more. The beginning is pretty good but it drags during portions. Certainly worth reading though.
Post by: jackelope on April 24, 2018, 09:08:04 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 24, 2018, 09:14:48 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/161791f944e160cd2775b574a07332a5.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/930d1f77ea649c07ea441fa53c4e2125.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/d5eb8937b241487c9961a980380685ba.jpg)
There’s a few I still have on my phone.
Post by: jackelope on April 24, 2018, 09:20:48 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/d2c5f11c59db028c04f6b3a1944cd6c3.jpg)
This is the one that tipped Rainier10 over.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/22f2b1c0e8ff630c96936acfc91ce1db.jpg)
And curious to hear what the goat experts think of this one. I think it’s a fairly gigantic billy.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/0d3e8347c76e5450790226b153bd0789.jpg)
Post by: 92xj on April 24, 2018, 09:26:58 PM
The only thing that makes me question is from this view the curve looks like it starts past the middle point of the horn to me.
Post by: RB on April 24, 2018, 09:52:07 PM
Man I want a goat tag!
You deserve one.
:yeah:
Yes he does!
Post by: PlateauNDN on April 24, 2018, 10:01:04 PM
:chuckle: in all Honesty, they were on the tower of death from whence a helo or plane is needed to jump out of to reach them. That's the closest they were viewed from. I've got other pics somewhere.
Post by: RB on April 24, 2018, 10:14:10 PM
Carry a good spotting scope and take your time! Make sure it is a Billy it is not that hard, the hardest part is drawing the tag!
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 25, 2018, 05:09:33 AM
Post by: shanevg on April 25, 2018, 06:17:10 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/746d68fb662680700d83372ac768a8af.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/161791f944e160cd2775b574a07332a5.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/930d1f77ea649c07ea441fa53c4e2125.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/d5eb8937b241487c9961a980380685ba.jpg)
There’s a few I still have on my phone.
Small billy
Nanny
Probably small billy but definitely would require more study.
Young billy
As far as the last goat, I’d say young billy with great genetics. I’d need more angles to truly judge but his face looks to small to be a true bruiser. One of those goats you shoot thinking it will score 50+ inches and it ends up being 47.5-48”
Post by: Timber on April 25, 2018, 07:00:28 AM
Post by: blacktailer on April 25, 2018, 08:00:11 AM
Post by: MisplacedAlaskan on April 25, 2018, 08:03:01 AM
Post by: Naches Sportsman on April 25, 2018, 11:19:42 AM
1. I get really impatient waiting for a goat to pee :chuckle:
2. Before you all put in for Naches Pass, take a scouting trip and locate goats. No doubt there was goats burned up last year during the fire. I didn't see many in the three times I went up into some of their wintering grounds off of hwy 410. I didn't see any of the goats that usually winter in Union creek and near fifes peak.
3. I'll give out info for the bumping river tag holders if you draw. I'd definetely contact CPO if drawn if you don't have stock and want to do a drop camp in the wilderness. I say this because the area I'll hunt if drawn is in CPO permit area. It takes me a full day to get in the area I like to look at goats in.
I haven't spent enough time with goats in WPO's permit area, but there are options with him too.
Post by: jackelope on April 25, 2018, 11:35:11 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/746d68fb662680700d83372ac768a8af.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/161791f944e160cd2775b574a07332a5.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/930d1f77ea649c07ea441fa53c4e2125.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/d5eb8937b241487c9961a980380685ba.jpg)
There’s a few I still have on my phone.
Small billy
Nanny
Probably small billy but definitely would require more study.
Young billy
As far as the last goat, I’d say young billy with great genetics. I’d need more angles to truly judge but his face looks to small to be a true bruiser. One of those goats you shoot thinking it will score 50+ inches and it ends up being 47.5-48”
The 4th billy is the one I killed back in September. At least we think it is. He was in the same exact place. He was 4.5 years old. 45 1/8 I think. I have a spotter pic of him I'll find. Stand by.
Post by: jackelope on April 25, 2018, 11:38:33 AM
Early September
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/c9532ef439e322a310a3b8d7d40f023f.jpg)
Late October
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180425/4a4ca3819326435d42897345c9b4038b.jpg)
Post by: jackelope on April 25, 2018, 11:40:47 AM
The third goat is actually a nanny. I’m the one who took that photo. I watched that goat for a couple of hours that day and saw her urinate to confirm she was a nanny.
I was going with nanny too. I can't remember where I found that picture. I have a few more of your photos that I saved on my phone for reference.
Post by: Bushcraft on April 25, 2018, 01:12:00 PM
I have to admit that my jaw clenched a little when I read that an individual who successfully drew one of these highly coveted tags (for some of us anyway) and didn't hunt because “he didn’t realize it was so difficult”. Say what?!?! That got under my skin because it effectively robbed someone else of the opportunity. What a jerk! That joker should not have put in for it in the first place. For starters, yes, it takes a little effort to hike into some of our mountain goat areas, but it isn’t particularly difficult if you are in decent shape, have decent gear, have some backcountry experience, and perhaps most importantly…time. In my opinion, one should know what they are getting into and be absolutely willing to “embrace the suck” before applying for the tag. If not, don’t put in for the draw. I suppose it’s probably better that he didn’t hunt because he would have likely just settled for a nanny like too many people do.
Which leads me to another thing that can get me a little hot under the collar: I personally think it is inexcusable to shoot a nanny in this state. Other than the Olympic Peninsula population, the remaining pockets of goat populations are fragile and whacking a nanny is a selfish, lazy act that adversely impacts those populations. It is NOT difficult to determine sex if you take your time. It is actually pretty easy. Spending time looking at pictures, or better yet…get out with someone that knows during scouting/conditioning trips. There are so many resources available now that help people understand what to look for. And there are a TON of experienced people that would be happy to tag along on a hunt and help a guy out.
Take the pictures that you posted for example, if someone knows what to look for, it is pretty easy to get a good idea of which sex they are with a casual glance. Picture #1: Billy…The bases are significantly larger than the eyes. Picture #2: Nanny…small bases relative to the eyes with significant space between the bases. They are relatively straight and tweak back a bit at the tops too. BTW, I’ve got some pics of goats taken next to those same trees. Picture 3: This is could go either way since it isn’t clear just how big the bases are, but watching it for a while would clear it up. Picture 4: Billy. No question.
Anyone that draws a goat tag should seriously consider joining an SCI/RMGA sponsored goat count. Sitting with someone that knows what to look for can pretty dramatically improve the learning curve. There will be a significant need for volunteers this summer. Stay tuned!
Best,
Allen
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on April 26, 2018, 08:21:34 AM
I have to admit that my jaw clenched a little when I read that an individual who successfully drew one of these highly coveted tags (for some of us anyway) and didn't hunt because “he didn’t realize it was so difficult”.
Several years ago I helped a Lake Chelan N goat permit holder contact a local goat enthusiast who was willing to help out a stranger. He made plans to go on an August scouting trip with him, they met in Chelan and the enthusiast pointed out where they would be going. The permittee said "Huh", got back in his car and drove away, never to be heard from again.
Post by: jackelope on April 26, 2018, 08:54:01 AM
Post by: WAcoueshunter on April 26, 2018, 10:54:57 AM
Post by: jackelope on April 26, 2018, 11:04:51 AM
Speaking of goat hunts...reading Jackelope's story in Epic right now!
:yike:
:tup: :tup: :tup: :tup:
Post by: 520backyard on May 05, 2018, 10:21:55 PM
So 97 was the last year before a goat tag became a OIL tag, so I can still put in and I do every year.
Post by: sagerat on May 06, 2018, 08:14:54 AM
Post by: Bob33 on May 06, 2018, 08:24:10 AM
Post by: CaNINE on May 06, 2018, 08:45:47 AM
Post by: Timberstalker on May 06, 2018, 09:40:00 AM
We have 27 now.
Post by: 520backyard on May 06, 2018, 10:02:19 AM
900 goat Permits in 1969. 900!!
We have 27 now.
Now think of the number of mountain goats killed by the National Park Service in the Olympic nation park. It is well over a thousand, the exact number is hard to pinpoint might be double that, they like to hide that information. Now think of a 6 to 8% reproductive increase that the number of goats killed by the NPS in the Olympic national park would have had on the overall mountain goat population in Washington State had they been relocated. Mad yet?
Post by: jackelope on May 07, 2018, 01:19:18 PM
For me, a goat hunt is the top bucket list experience of North American big game . I’ve lived vicariously through other tag holders and helped scout and lead them, sometimes dragging, up the mountain. I’m sitting on max points but with single digit draw odds I’m planning a BC or AK hunt in the next 3 years. If anyone has recommended outfitters please share them.
@archery288 Can you share an outfitter recommendation?
Post by: archery288 on May 07, 2018, 01:30:01 PM
For me, a goat hunt is the top bucket list experience of North American big game . I’ve lived vicariously through other tag holders and helped scout and lead them, sometimes dragging, up the mountain. I’m sitting on max points but with single digit draw odds I’m planning a BC or AK hunt in the next 3 years. If anyone has recommended outfitters please share them.
@archery288 Can you share an outfitter recommendation?
Sure thing! :tup: I would HIGHLY recommend North River Outfitting in BC. https://northriveroutfitting.com (https://northriveroutfitting.com)
I got a chance to hunt with them last year. It was truly a top notch operation and two of the nicest people that you'll ever meet, own and operate it. They hunt the Cassiar mountains which are inland up by the Yukon border. While goats out on the coast in BC might be bigger, and when I say bigger I'm talking about the chance to kill an 11" goat. Something truly world class, but they are few and far between. In the Cassiars North River averages 9.5" on their goats. I killed a 10" goat with them, which is very do-able if you hunt hard. Seeing goats in not an issue at all. They do their homework and know where they are and there's no shortage. Plus, you'll get to fly in over 100 miles from the nearest road so you are truly by yourself.
Here is a picture of the goat I took with them.
Post by: Rainier10 on May 07, 2018, 03:23:15 PM
Congrats.
Post by: scottcrb on May 07, 2018, 07:56:53 PM
Post by: Tbar on May 07, 2018, 08:00:15 PM
Its silly that WDFW hasn't made permits Billy only. People are provided enough information to make the correct judgment call.You seem to have a good handle on the goat management and dynamics. I still would like to know if you guys made the determination that it was a nanny before the shot? Not trying to criticize just would like an account from people with the experience.
Post by: blacktailer on May 07, 2018, 09:39:54 PM
Post by: bearpaw on May 17, 2018, 11:57:57 AM
900 goat Permits in 1969. 900!!
We have 27 now.
Now think of the number of mountain goats killed by the National Park Service in the Olympic nation park. It is well over a thousand, the exact number is hard to pinpoint might be double that, they like to hide that information. Now think of a 6 to 8% reproductive increase that the number of goats killed by the NPS in the Olympic national park would have had on the overall mountain goat population in Washington State had they been relocated. Mad yet?
I just read that Utah increased goat permits from 106 to 117 and the population is growing. WA is messed up on so many levels! :bash:
Post by: jackelope on May 17, 2018, 12:08:59 PM
900 goat Permits in 1969. 900!!
We have 27 now.
Now think of the number of mountain goats killed by the National Park Service in the Olympic nation park. It is well over a thousand, the exact number is hard to pinpoint might be double that, they like to hide that information. Now think of a 6 to 8% reproductive increase that the number of goats killed by the NPS in the Olympic national park would have had on the overall mountain goat population in Washington State had they been relocated. Mad yet?
I just read that Utah increased goat permits from 106 to 117 and the population is growing. WA is messed up on so many levels! :bash:
There's good work going on here to increase tag #'s too.
Post by: bearpaw on May 17, 2018, 12:18:50 PM
900 goat Permits in 1969. 900!!
We have 27 now.
Now think of the number of mountain goats killed by the National Park Service in the Olympic nation park. It is well over a thousand, the exact number is hard to pinpoint might be double that, they like to hide that information. Now think of a 6 to 8% reproductive increase that the number of goats killed by the NPS in the Olympic national park would have had on the overall mountain goat population in Washington State had they been relocated. Mad yet?
I just read that Utah increased goat permits from 106 to 117 and the population is growing. WA is messed up on so many levels! :bash:
There's good work going on here to increase tag #'s too.
https://wdfw.wa.gov/living/mountain_goats.html
Quote
Mountain Goats
Between 2,400 and 3,200 mountain goats are estimated to live in Washington. Mountain goats are native to the Cascade Range, and can be found from the Canadian border on the north to the Oregon border on the south. A few mountain goats inhabit the Blue Mountains of southeastern Washington where they have probably colonized from reintroductions in Oregon. Mountain goats are not native to the Olympic Peninsula; these goats descended from introductions in the 1920s.
The number of goat permits in WA is criminal. If I remember correctly, other than Alaska, WA has the most goats in the US.
Post by: jackelope on May 17, 2018, 01:01:12 PM
900 goat Permits in 1969. 900!!
We have 27 now.
Now think of the number of mountain goats killed by the National Park Service in the Olympic nation park. It is well over a thousand, the exact number is hard to pinpoint might be double that, they like to hide that information. Now think of a 6 to 8% reproductive increase that the number of goats killed by the NPS in the Olympic national park would have had on the overall mountain goat population in Washington State had they been relocated. Mad yet?
I just read that Utah increased goat permits from 106 to 117 and the population is growing. WA is messed up on so many levels! :bash:
There's good work going on here to increase tag #'s too.
https://wdfw.wa.gov/living/mountain_goats.htmlQuoteMountain Goats
Between 2,400 and 3,200 mountain goats are estimated to live in Washington. Mountain goats are native to the Cascade Range, and can be found from the Canadian border on the north to the Oregon border on the south. A few mountain goats inhabit the Blue Mountains of southeastern Washington where they have probably colonized from reintroductions in Oregon. Mountain goats are not native to the Olympic Peninsula; these goats descended from introductions in the 1920s.
The number of goat permits in WA is criminal. If I remember correctly, other than Alaska, WA has the most goats in the US.
All I said was there were people working in hopes of aquiring more tags.
There are.
:dunno:
https://goatalliance.org/blogs/news/2016-goat-rocks-wilderness-washington-project-recap
The same thing in 2017 in the ALW but there seems to be issues with the article(like, there is none)
https://goatalliance.org/blogs/news/washington-enchantments-2017-project-recap
If you're not familiar with the Rocky Mountain Goat Alliance, check it out.
https://goatalliance.org/
OUR MISSION
Our mission is to increase and enhance the management, range, and populations of Rocky Mountain Goats
across both native and suitable non-native North American habitats without negatively impacting native ungulates
while educating the public of ongoing conservation projects and petitioning for the expansion
of sustainable hunting opportunities across the continent.
Post by: bearpaw on May 18, 2018, 09:48:21 AM
900 goat Permits in 1969. 900!!
We have 27 now.
Now think of the number of mountain goats killed by the National Park Service in the Olympic nation park. It is well over a thousand, the exact number is hard to pinpoint might be double that, they like to hide that information. Now think of a 6 to 8% reproductive increase that the number of goats killed by the NPS in the Olympic national park would have had on the overall mountain goat population in Washington State had they been relocated. Mad yet?
I just read that Utah increased goat permits from 106 to 117 and the population is growing. WA is messed up on so many levels! :bash:
There's good work going on here to increase tag #'s too.
https://wdfw.wa.gov/living/mountain_goats.htmlQuoteMountain Goats
Between 2,400 and 3,200 mountain goats are estimated to live in Washington. Mountain goats are native to the Cascade Range, and can be found from the Canadian border on the north to the Oregon border on the south. A few mountain goats inhabit the Blue Mountains of southeastern Washington where they have probably colonized from reintroductions in Oregon. Mountain goats are not native to the Olympic Peninsula; these goats descended from introductions in the 1920s.
The number of goat permits in WA is criminal. If I remember correctly, other than Alaska, WA has the most goats in the US.
All I said was there were people working in hopes of aquiring more tags.
There are.
:dunno:
https://goatalliance.org/blogs/news/2016-goat-rocks-wilderness-washington-project-recap
The same thing in 2017 in the ALW but there seems to be issues with the article(like, there is none)
https://goatalliance.org/blogs/news/washington-enchantments-2017-project-recap
If you're not familiar with the Rocky Mountain Goat Alliance, check it out.
https://goatalliance.org/
OUR MISSION
Our mission is to increase and enhance the management, range, and populations of Rocky Mountain Goats
across both native and suitable non-native North American habitats without negatively impacting native ungulates
while educating the public of ongoing conservation projects and petitioning for the expansion
of sustainable hunting opportunities across the continent.
I hope you are right. You may have taken my post wrong, I was just pointing out the numbers.
I'm very familiar with RMGA, one of my guides has worked on two projects this year and going to work on another before summer end.
Post by: CaNINE on May 18, 2018, 11:07:32 AM
Sent you a PM