Post by: CarbonHunter on April 20, 2018, 07:09:20 PM
With the rags hitting the internet today and we now see there will be 45% less bull tags for the Yakima herd along with the cuts to the cow tags last year, is it time to admit that the opportunities are gone for good? I know a lot of you already gave up and I’m sure we’ll see a lot of “I told you so’s” but is this the point when we realize after 20 years of declining herds and opportunities that it will never get better?
Post by: bobcat on April 20, 2018, 07:14:58 PM
Post by: CarbonHunter on April 20, 2018, 07:20:28 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 20, 2018, 07:29:10 PM
Here's the proposal for elk permits:
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/seasonsetting/2018-2020/wac/220-415-060.pdf
Post by: CarbonHunter on April 20, 2018, 07:34:29 PM
Where’s the emoji that shows the hunter bent over taking in the rear from the state?
Post by: bobcat on April 20, 2018, 07:36:10 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on April 20, 2018, 07:43:52 PM
Post by: CarbonHunter on April 20, 2018, 07:44:28 PM
Was this the trade off for the archery hunters fighting to keep an early cow hunt? :dunno:
Post by: CarbonHunter on April 20, 2018, 07:52:12 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on April 20, 2018, 07:54:54 PM
Or... is this the sign that a wolf pack found the soup kitchen known as a winter feeding station? Something big has caused the change of cow tags being cut to 10% of what they were, bull tags getting cut by 45% and the sudden need to try and eliminate the early cow season for archery. This all happened in 2 years.Yup, wolves play a big part!
Post by: SkookumHntr on April 20, 2018, 07:58:05 PM
Post by: rtspring on April 20, 2018, 08:00:46 PM
Post by: Mudman on April 20, 2018, 08:04:46 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 20, 2018, 08:08:14 PM
Post by: KFhunter on April 20, 2018, 08:11:05 PM
Post by: CarbonHunter on April 20, 2018, 08:12:36 PM
I hear there's lots of elk jerky being sold in Yakima, I suppose that could have an effect.Who’s selling it?
Post by: bobcat on April 20, 2018, 08:15:18 PM
I hear there's lots of elk jerky being sold in Yakima, I suppose that could have an effect.Who’s selling it?
The people who have the year around deer and elk season over there.
Post by: CarbonHunter on April 20, 2018, 08:31:39 PM
I hear there's lots of elk jerky being sold in Yakima, I suppose that could have an effect.Who’s selling it?
The people who have the year around deer and elk season over there.
Honestly, they have been hunting year around for years and it was noticed when their cousins to the west broke the treaty and crossed the crest of the cascades. But I think this is bigger than just tribal hunting, this was the states largest elk herd and the WDFW is supposedly working with the Muckleshoots when it comes to management.
This is a perfect example of failures when it comes to herd management and proactive wildlife planning. I feel we are seeing nothing short of knee jerk reactions and the right hand not talking to the left. If we continue down the road of how the department has been managing over the last 2 decades how can things ever get better?
In the last 2 years this area has finally received a couple fires that will improve habitat. Why are we cutting opportunities when science says we should soon be seeing an increase in herds due to increasing summer range?
Post by: rtspring on April 20, 2018, 08:39:44 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 20, 2018, 08:47:54 PM
This is not a indian problem. This is no doubt caused by the idiot white man..
Are you thinking the excessive cow harvest due to all the special permits?
Post by: SemperFidelis97 on April 20, 2018, 08:58:59 PM
Post by: rtspring on April 20, 2018, 09:01:27 PM
Post by: rtspring on April 20, 2018, 09:08:59 PM
Post by: CarbonHunter on April 20, 2018, 09:12:07 PM
Post by: PlateauNDN on April 20, 2018, 09:17:28 PM
that cant be the reason. A lot of those cow tags were not even filled. I see great numbers in unit 346 so I dont see the decrease in permits has anything to do with low elk numbers. Thats why its so hard to understand WDFW thought process when setting numbers. Pick and day in sept and I can show anyone the elk are fine. That includes, calfs, cows, bulls.. and you won't even need to leave the road.
:yeah: but it's just easy to blame one factor of the equation by some so I guess we can roll with that. :dunno:
Post by: PlateauNDN on April 20, 2018, 09:18:37 PM
Lots of burnt area so grass will not be an issue, heck they even started new logging. But, I did find 20 plus bio game cameras. So something is going on!!!!
Gonna be some good eating for elk/deer this year up there.
Post by: jmscon on April 20, 2018, 09:42:52 PM
So, if you want more numbers, reduce cow tags. ;)
Post by: Naches Sportsman on April 20, 2018, 09:45:01 PM
Lots of burnt area so grass will not be an issue, heck they even started new logging. But, I did find 20 plus bio game cameras. So something is going on!!!!
Gonna be some good eating for elk/deer this year up there.
And good area for the wolves to pick off the elk.
Here's a fact: there were wolves hanging out around the 1901 area last fall. They do know where the burn area is and where the elk went last year.
Post by: jackelope on April 20, 2018, 10:06:00 PM
I believe I read on here where people went to the feeding stations in February and March and they were already empty. Hard to believe there was a late winter kill.
Was this the trade off for the archery hunters fighting to keep an early cow hunt? :dunno:
The elk weren’t there because there wasn’t any snow in the higher country to push them down.
Post by: bearpaw on April 21, 2018, 12:26:55 AM
It's a perfect storm for the Elk, expect huge losses this is just the beginning.
:yeah: even worse for moose...
Post by: Mr Mykiss on April 21, 2018, 06:34:19 AM
Post by: nwwanderer on April 21, 2018, 07:45:56 AM
Post by: buglebrush on April 21, 2018, 09:07:25 AM
Post by: Bob33 on April 21, 2018, 09:23:56 AM
in 1997 overall general season elk harvest success in Washington was 6.3%. It was 7.8% last year.
Post by: kentrek on April 21, 2018, 11:48:12 AM
Post by: CarbonHunter on April 21, 2018, 01:26:19 PM
I can't imagine giving up hope on Washington. There's still plenty of good hunting opportunity but it takes more effort in some instances.
in 1997 overall general season elk harvest success in Washington was 6.3%. It was 7.8% last year.
I’m not saying giving up hope on Washington having quality animals, I’m asking who’s giving up hope of ever drawing a tag and getting the chance to hunt for one of these quality animals. If the herds are supporting less tags that means less people will get a chance to hunt them.
Keep in mind that the 1997 numbers were pretty bad due to the winter kill of 96-97. However after that the herds climbed until the mid 2000’s and we haven’t seen much of an upward swing since then. Also 2 of the last 3 winters have been relatively mid for the winter range so the cut to the tags and seasons seems a bit odd.
Post by: Bob33 on April 21, 2018, 02:27:39 PM
It could well be more difficult to draw tags now than 20 years ago. I believe the changes made to the draw system in 2010 were a serious mistake that made it more difficult to draw quality tags.I can't imagine giving up hope on Washington. There's still plenty of good hunting opportunity but it takes more effort in some instances.
in 1997 overall general season elk harvest success in Washington was 6.3%. It was 7.8% last year.
I’m not saying giving up hope on Washington having quality animals, I’m asking who’s giving up hope of ever drawing a tag and getting the chance to hunt for one of these quality animals. If the herds are supporting less tags that means less people will get a chance to hunt them.
Keep in mind that the 1997 numbers were pretty bad due to the winter kill of 96-97. However after that the herds climbed until the mid 2000’s and we haven’t seen much of an upward swing since then. Also 2 of the last 3 winters have been relatively mid for the winter range so the cut to the tags and seasons seems a bit odd.
General season harvest numbers have shown a slight upward trend over the 20 year time period
Post by: Mudman on April 21, 2018, 02:56:56 PM
Post by: Special T on April 21, 2018, 04:56:37 PM
Most are skeptical of the WDFW. I under stand why. Whom do you trust to shoot it to you straight? Do you belong to any kind of sportsmen/conservation group? Do they have some one whom attends local gov meeting in regards to sportsmen issues? If not help out. If they do the help those folks spread the information.
The Yakima herd 2 years ago had a bad winter kill. This last winter was super light and elk didn't come down to the lower levels so the herd could be surveyed. We don't know the herds health but should his fall.
If your not going to get I evolved in an organization then at a bare min you should start stacking up predators. If you give up on deer and elk buy a cougar tag with small game and rain hot death of coyotes, bobcats and Cougars. 2c
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: NRA4LIFE on April 21, 2018, 05:50:55 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 21, 2018, 05:53:49 PM
Post by: Mudman on April 21, 2018, 05:59:21 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 21, 2018, 07:08:23 PM
When the day comes that Wa isn't a Liberal cesspool I will have hope again, until then I just see it for what is.
Great. More permits for the rest of us.
Hey. Just trying to stay positive.
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 21, 2018, 07:15:28 PM
Post by: CarbonHunter on April 21, 2018, 07:26:53 PM
All isn't lost, but only complaining won't help. The fact is that not enough folks are involved with conservation orgs or with sportsmen advocacy groups.
Most are skeptical of the WDFW. I under stand why. Whom do you trust to shoot it to you straight? Do you belong to any kind of sportsmen/conservation group? Do they have some one whom attends local gov meeting in regards to sportsmen issues? If not help out. If they do the help those folks spread the information.
The Yakima herd 2 years ago had a bad winter kill. This last winter was super light and elk didn't come down to the lower levels so the herd could be surveyed. We don't know the herds health but should his fall.
If your not going to get I evolved in an organization then at a bare min you should start stacking up predators. If you give up on deer and elk buy a cougar tag with small game and rain hot death of coyotes, bobcats and Cougars. 2c
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
I’m involved in the RMEF and the WSB and I comment on the proposed rule changes and have attended the WDFW meetings. On top of that I spent this morning trying to get a bear removed from Kapowsin. I would consider myself complaining about the way things are going and I am open to ideas on how to make change. Is there something more that we should be doing? If I knew where to be and what to say I will be there, let me know.
Post by: Bob33 on April 21, 2018, 07:31:28 PM
Post by: Special T on April 21, 2018, 08:13:17 PM
Convince more people to take one step like you have. Things arnt well but all isn't lost.All isn't lost, but only complaining won't help. The fact is that not enough folks are involved with conservation orgs or with sportsmen advocacy groups.
Most are skeptical of the WDFW. I under stand why. Whom do you trust to shoot it to you straight? Do you belong to any kind of sportsmen/conservation group? Do they have some one whom attends local gov meeting in regards to sportsmen issues? If not help out. If they do the help those folks spread the information.
The Yakima herd 2 years ago had a bad winter kill. This last winter was super light and elk didn't come down to the lower levels so the herd could be surveyed. We don't know the herds health but should his fall.
If your not going to get I evolved in an organization then at a bare min you should start stacking up predators. If you give up on deer and elk buy a cougar tag with small game and rain hot death of coyotes, bobcats and Cougars. 2c
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
I’m involved in the RMEF and the WSB and I comment on the proposed rule changes and have attended the WDFW meetings. On top of that I spent this morning trying to get a bear removed from Kapowsin. I would consider myself complaining about the way things are going and I am open to ideas on how to make change. Is there something more that we should be doing? If I knew where to be and what to say I will be there, let me know.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: KFhunter on April 21, 2018, 08:47:07 PM
The habitat is fine in most areas, or rather, it's not up to carrying capacity so we need to keep that in the back of our minds (Yes, It's ALWAYS a good idea to improve habitat) but that isn't where the most need is currently.
We must have predator control. Higher success rates will draw more hunters, more game means more successful draws.
Killing predators and reducing cow/doe tags is how you build herds, once the herd is robust improving habitat can increase the herd even more, but we're a long ways off from focusing mostly on habitat even though it's sexy and leftist friendly to talk about habitat.
Post by: jasnt on April 21, 2018, 09:26:47 PM
All the best habitat in the world isn't going to help if an area is in a predator pit.i couldn't agree more!
The habitat is fine in most areas, or rather, it's not up to carrying capacity so we need to keep that in the back of our minds (Yes, It's ALWAYS a good idea to improve habitat) but that isn't where the most need is currently.
We must have predator control. Higher success rates will draw more hunters, more game means more successful draws.
Killing predators and reducing cow/doe tags is how you build herds, once the herd is robust improving habitat can increase the herd even more, but we're a long ways off from focusing mostly on habitat even though it's sexy and leftist friendly to talk about habitat.
Post by: Timberstalker on April 21, 2018, 09:44:31 PM
There’s too many predators in too many places.
Post by: nwwanderer on April 22, 2018, 06:48:36 AM
Post by: Mudman on April 22, 2018, 10:53:56 AM
No its not.... I have never contributed to the mafia system of Wa. I recognized a spade years ago.When the day comes that Wa isn't a Liberal cesspool I will have hope again, until then I just see it for what is.
Great. More permits for the rest of us.
Hey. Just trying to stay positive.
Post by: jackelope on April 22, 2018, 12:10:46 PM
Post by: Special T on April 22, 2018, 01:38:43 PM
So you don’t hunt here?I hunt here just don't pay extra for the draw permitts. I'm guessing that's what he is saying.
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Post by: Mudman on April 22, 2018, 01:47:57 PM
So you don’t hunt here?Never applied for specials. Never bought Disc pass. Didn't hunt last year for first time in long time. Work had some to do with that besides frustration. Not hunting Wa this year either. I choose to support a state that respects hunters and outdoor lifestyle. I would love to fight in Wa but to be honest it is hopeless. WAY to many Libs. We can settle for whats left and lie to ourselves all we want but its true this state has went to ---- and isn't coming back from abyss. I have 44 years in this state to know what has been lost and I did not live in the city. All have perspectives and many are uber positive and I only know what I have lived.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 22, 2018, 02:24:54 PM
That said, herds will always spike and fall. To say the sky is falling and there's no hope is silly. It's a breeding renewable resource folks.
Post by: jdb on April 22, 2018, 03:17:28 PM
We had record numbers of elk in Yakima county until WDFW went full retard and issued thousands of cow tags for muzzy and rifle. Top that off with otc cows early and late archery. Then big winter of 2016 and all of a sudden we go from like 13k animals to 8k. Well duh!!!!full retard!! You never go full retard!
That said, herds will always spike and fall. To say the sky is falling and there's no hope is silly. It's a breeding renewable resource folks.
Post by: fish vacuum on April 22, 2018, 04:54:59 PM
Can anybody name a unit with increasing elk #'s over last 5-10 years?
418, 437, 426, 448
Post by: bearpaw on April 22, 2018, 06:18:36 PM
It would be easier to draw with fewer hunters, but I believe our future depends on developing and nurturing more hunters. More and more urbanization, less acceptance of hunting.
:yeah: That is absolutely one of the biggest determining factors. Unless our Hunter ED system is set up to teach more hunters than are dieing off each year then hunting will continue to decline.
Post by: jackelope on April 22, 2018, 06:24:26 PM
We had record numbers of elk in Yakima county until WDFW went full retard and issued thousands of cow tags for muzzy and rifle. Top that off with otc cows early and late archery. Then big winter of 2016 and all of a sudden we go from like 13k animals to 8k. Well duh!!!!
That said, herds will always spike and fall. To say the sky is falling and there's no hope is silly. It's a breeding renewable resource folks.
This!!!
But tomorrow we’ll all get together and roast the wdfw for taking away cow tags.
Post by: bearpaw on April 22, 2018, 06:31:39 PM
With a declining elk herd the only responsible thing to do is reduce antlerless tags. Antlerless tags are used by all F&G Depts to reduce herd size or prevent herd growth. If you want to roast WDFW at least do it for something WDFW is doing wrong. :twocents:
Post by: Backstraps on April 22, 2018, 07:01:02 PM
We had record numbers of elk in Yakima county until WDFW went full retard and issued thousands of cow tags for muzzy and rifle. Top that off with otc cows early and late archery. Then big winter of 2016 and all of a sudden we go from like 13k animals to 8k. Well duh!!!!
That said, herds will always spike and fall. To say the sky is falling and there's no hope is silly. It's a breeding renewable resource folks.
:yeah:......... AND CONTROL THE DAMN PREDATORS!!! Karl, did you see that video of that bull elk surrounded by a pack of wolves a couple weeks ago? >:(
Post by: CarbonHunter on April 22, 2018, 07:03:17 PM
Post by: Ridgeratt on April 22, 2018, 07:05:38 PM
Speaks about the decrease in youth hunters and then the WDFW goals for management.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2018/apr/21/rich-landers-lucky-hunter-proud-to-be-one-of-the-f/#/0
This is the cash strapped answer
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2018/apr/22/fewer-hunters-stretch-washingtons-already-tight-wi/#/0
There's another article about the aerial surveys only show 3 female Caribou. So maybe too little too late. :bash: :bash:
Post by: bearpaw on April 22, 2018, 07:24:18 PM
Predator management is definitely one answer to that question!
Washington sees new low in deer harvest numbers, Idaho above average
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2018/apr/20/washington-sees-new-low-in-deer-harvest-numbers-id/
Post by: Mudman on April 22, 2018, 07:33:53 PM
Can anybody name a unit with increasing elk #'s over last 5-10 years? To me it started years ago with the elk around Pe ell area and then to Winston St helens and on and on. Only places I see increase was around the private and town areas. Are those the Skagit units?? Metro elk? The article above posted sums it all up well. $ increase coming just like I said. Tell me HOW #'s are down when access is down and less hunters are in the woods?? That should say it all. That's how my backwards logic functions. WDFW, Predators, Gov office and their Libs. This is very simple math and I do not see how anyone could argue otherwise honestly?Can anybody name a unit with increasing elk #'s over last 5-10 years?
418, 437, 426, 448
Post by: Peewee on April 22, 2018, 07:41:39 PM
Post by: buglebrush on April 22, 2018, 08:12:04 PM
Post by: fish vacuum on April 22, 2018, 09:07:00 PM
Only places I see increase was around the private and town areas. Are those the Skagit units?? Metro elk?Can anybody name a unit with increasing elk #'s over last 5-10 years?
418, 437, 426, 448
Those units cover most of the ground from hwy 2 to the Canadian border. I've been seeing elk and getting trail cam pictures of elk in places they haven't been before in my lifetime.
418 is open by permit only. I think 448 has a general season but effort (and success) are very minimal. I believe that's because the elk in 448 are only in small pockets at the edges of the GMU where they move in and out.
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on April 23, 2018, 10:19:13 AM
All hope is not lost, numbers will go up and down overtime. But I don’t believe it will be as good as it has been, too many predators. Laws like no baiting and no hounds for bear and cougar has make a big impact. Now we add wolves and possibly grizzlys in the future. Our numbers will probably continue to drop, lets hope for not too much longer but the wolf numbers have to increase before the anti’s are happy.Nailed the trend, there will be peaks and troughs, but over time the peaks will be lower, as will the troughs. Carnivores and carnivore management plays a role, but habitat loss and human population growth play a huge role too. A lot of the agricultural and silvicultural practices used today are far less productive of game than older practices. It's not just conversion to housing and urbanization, but those drive down the game populations too. Then there's weeds, exotic diseases ... increasing human population is rarely beneficial for game.
Post by: CarbonHunter on April 23, 2018, 05:31:55 PM
More revealing data, what is different between Idaho and Washington?
Predator management is definitely one answer to that question!
Washington sees new low in deer harvest numbers, Idaho above average
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2018/apr/20/washington-sees-new-low-in-deer-harvest-numbers-id/
Idaho is still having their own struggles with predators but it shows predators don’t mean the end of your deer and elk numbers. Idaho has a management plan that is leading to increasing herd numbers but they are still having areas that aren’t what they used to be. A lot of the elk in areas of Idaho that is infested with wolves have moved down to more open ground. In Washington when they try to move down they either find a housing development or a farm that they aren’t welcome on.
Post by: Mr Mykiss on April 24, 2018, 05:41:39 AM
There has been a lot of call for us to “do something” over the past 5 years, 10 years? But we never seem to organize well and while some of us make great efforts to express our thoughts and opinions to WDFW and some of use make a effort and some of us make no effort...it doesn’t seems like meaningful change has happened? Save some small examples that people could come up with, am I right?
So...my thought is that we start a campaign based on controlling predators? Bueno? Like WE.
Like all of US.
Like together.
Unified.
In a circle.
With a drum.
With our congressmen.
With our local biologists.
Many people ask “what can we/I do?”
Well Bearpaw...is the one most productive thing/message that we could unify around controlling predators?
Does almost everyone agree?
If so...let’s do it!!
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 24, 2018, 05:50:45 AM
Post by: buglebrush on April 24, 2018, 08:15:05 AM
I did comment during the open comment period about this. Then when I went in and viewed the comments there were very few about this topic. So I guess people would rather just bitch about it than make an effort which is fine. But you really have no legs to stand on if you didn't make an effort.
I commented extensively on it as well.
Post by: buglebrush on April 24, 2018, 08:17:57 AM
Excuse my ignorance but are y’all saying that PREDATORS ARE THE NUMBER ONE PROBLEM WITH WASHINGTON HUNTING/GAME MANAGEMENT??
There has been a lot of call for us to “do something” over the past 5 years, 10 years? But we never seem to organize well and while some of us make great efforts to express our thoughts and opinions to WDFW and some of use make a effort and some of us make no effort...it doesn’t seems like meaningful change has happened? Save some small examples that people could come up with, am I right?
So...my thought is that we start a campaign based on controlling predators? Bueno? Like WE.
Like all of US.
Like together.
Unified.
In a circle.
With a drum.
With our congressmen.
With our local biologists.
Many people ask “what can we/I do?”
Well Bearpaw...is the one most productive thing/message that we could unify around controlling predators?
Does almost everyone agree?
If so...let’s do it!!
What we really need is a Bio that cares more about the Future of Washington hunting than his job. I'm certainly all in if there's something we can do to apply pressure on OTC spring bear, hound hunting, etc...
Until then I'll keep supporting "The foundation for Wildlife Management" as they're making a real difference right across the border in Idaho.
Post by: hunter399 on April 24, 2018, 08:26:40 AM
I like the idea ,to ban together as hunters for some change .But two things would have to happen,Excuse my ignorance but are y’all saying that PREDATORS ARE THE NUMBER ONE PROBLEM WITH WASHINGTON HUNTING/GAME MANAGEMENT??
There has been a lot of call for us to “do something” over the past 5 years, 10 years? But we never seem to organize well and while some of us make great efforts to express our thoughts and opinions to WDFW and some of use make a effort and some of us make no effort...it doesn’t seems like meaningful change has happened? Save some small examples that people could come up with, am I right?
So...my thought is that we start a campaign based on controlling predators? Bueno? Like WE.
Like all of US.
Like together.
Unified.
In a circle.
With a drum.
With our congressmen.
With our local biologists.
Many people ask “what can we/I do?”
Well Bearpaw...is the one most productive thing/message that we could unify around controlling predators?
Does almost everyone agree?
If so...let’s do it!!
What we really need is a Bio that cares more about the Future of Washington hunting than his job. I'm certainly all in if there's something we can do to apply pressure on OTC spring bear, hound hunting, etc...
Until then I'll keep supporting "The foundation for Wildlife Management" as they're making a real difference right across the border in Idaho.
1) we have to agree on changes we want as hunters
2)A large amount of hunters would have to not buy a licence ,permit,nothing for one year.
Only thing they care about is money, the only way wdfw would listen is to lose money,that comment period before rule changes what a joke.
Post by: jmscon on April 24, 2018, 10:04:12 AM
WDFW biologists only care about their own jobs but if hunting and fishing ends they will be out of a job. And the bios reducing antlerless tags to try to manage the herds and boost numbers is the bios not doing their job. And those bios, who spend years in college studying wildlife, spend more time in the field studying herds and their interactions with other animals and their habitat than most of us do, know less about wildlife management than we do.
Huh
Post by: buglebrush on April 24, 2018, 10:12:24 AM
So let me get this straight,
WDFW biologists only care about their own jobs but if hunting and fishing ends they will be out of a job. And the bios reducing antlerless tags to try to manage the herds and boost numbers is the bios not doing their job. And those bios, who spend years in college studying wildlife, spend more time in the field studying herds and their interactions with other animals and their habitat than most of us do, know less about wildlife management than we do.
Huh
NO. However, when we are in a clear predator pit, and the Bio's aren't raising a stink about WDFW's lack of aggressive predator management it's obvious where their priorities are.
Post by: jmscon on April 24, 2018, 10:52:45 AM
So let me get this straight,
WDFW biologists only care about their own jobs but if hunting and fishing ends they will be out of a job. And the bios reducing antlerless tags to try to manage the herds and boost numbers is the bios not doing their job. And those bios, who spend years in college studying wildlife, spend more time in the field studying herds and their interactions with other animals and their habitat than most of us do, know less about wildlife management than we do.
Huh
NO. However, when we are in a clear predator pit, and the Bio's aren't raising a stink about WDFW's lack of aggressive predator management it's obvious where their priorities are.
The bios pushed for and the commission approved an increase in the cougar quota in a couple of areas and the governor blocked it.
One thing a guy could do is sent the governor a well worded email telling him to let the bios do their jobs. Call the regional biologist and ask questions, why the reduction in tags, what can a person do to help the herd, etc.
Post by: hunter399 on April 24, 2018, 10:53:36 AM
So let me get this straight,I bet if no one bought a hunting licence for one year,a lot of changes would happen,bio might rethink about there job a lot more.
WDFW biologists only care about their own jobs but if hunting and fishing ends they will be out of a job. And the bios reducing antlerless tags to try to manage the herds and boost numbers is the bios not doing their job. And those bios, who spend years in college studying wildlife, spend more time in the field studying herds and their interactions with other animals and their habitat than most of us do, know less about wildlife management than we do.
Huh
Post by: buglebrush on April 24, 2018, 11:19:51 AM
So let me get this straight,I bet if no one bought a hunting licence for one year,a lot of changes would happen,bio might rethink about there job a lot more.
WDFW biologists only care about their own jobs but if hunting and fishing ends they will be out of a job. And the bios reducing antlerless tags to try to manage the herds and boost numbers is the bios not doing their job. And those bios, who spend years in college studying wildlife, spend more time in the field studying herds and their interactions with other animals and their habitat than most of us do, know less about wildlife management than we do.
Huh
I'd do this in a heartbeat, but not many actually would. Too many people would just welcome the opportunity to hunt with less pressure.
Post by: Special T on April 24, 2018, 11:59:35 AM
The point that the Governors role in this should be highlighted. Sportsmen suffer from the outside influences in politics. Much of the protection of predators comes from these politicians. Add to this the complexity of tribes and thier contributions of $ to these same folks makes the department's job more complex.So let me get this straight,
WDFW biologists only care about their own jobs but if hunting and fishing ends they will be out of a job. And the bios reducing antlerless tags to try to manage the herds and boost numbers is the bios not doing their job. And those bios, who spend years in college studying wildlife, spend more time in the field studying herds and their interactions with other animals and their habitat than most of us do, know less about wildlife management than we do.
Huh
NO. However, when we are in a clear predator pit, and the Bio's aren't raising a stink about WDFW's lack of aggressive predator management it's obvious where their priorities are.
The bios pushed for and the commission approved an increase in the cougar quota in a couple of areas and the governor blocked it.
One thing a guy could do is sent the governor a well worded email telling him to let the bios do their jobs. Call the regional biologist and ask questions, why the reduction in tags, what can a person do to help the herd, etc.
If sportsmen spoke on with a more unified voice it would eliminate a bunch of complexity in thier job. I'm not saying that all the WDFW employees are friends of sportsmen, but the reality is much different than the idealism. Saying a bio should do what's good for the herd or quit doesn't really solve much. You have to play the game to win, and most sportsmen are doing a horable job of playing.
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Post by: buglebrush on April 24, 2018, 12:42:08 PM
The point that the Governors role in this should be highlighted. Sportsmen suffer from the outside influences in politics. Much of the protection of predators comes from these politicians. Add to this the complexity of tribes and thier contributions of $ to these same folks makes the department's job more complex.So let me get this straight,
WDFW biologists only care about their own jobs but if hunting and fishing ends they will be out of a job. And the bios reducing antlerless tags to try to manage the herds and boost numbers is the bios not doing their job. And those bios, who spend years in college studying wildlife, spend more time in the field studying herds and their interactions with other animals and their habitat than most of us do, know less about wildlife management than we do.
Huh
NO. However, when we are in a clear predator pit, and the Bio's aren't raising a stink about WDFW's lack of aggressive predator management it's obvious where their priorities are.
The bios pushed for and the commission approved an increase in the cougar quota in a couple of areas and the governor blocked it.
One thing a guy could do is sent the governor a well worded email telling him to let the bios do their jobs. Call the regional biologist and ask questions, why the reduction in tags, what can a person do to help the herd, etc.
If sportsmen spoke on with a more unified voice it would eliminate a bunch of complexity in thier job. I'm not saying that all the WDFW employees are friends of sportsmen, but the reality is much different than the idealism. Saying a bio should do what's good for the herd or quit doesn't really solve much. You have to play the game to win, and most sportsmen are doing a horable job of playing.
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If I was a Bio I would go get interviews, and express my growing concern over the predator problem. I would constantly educate people on what's going on, and how WDFW'S policies are completely against sound predator Management.
I'm getting a little sick of the excuses, and the attitude that hunters need to limit their opportunities so that the herds can handle the increased predators.
Post by: jasnt on April 24, 2018, 02:13:05 PM
Post by: jmscon on April 24, 2018, 02:39:13 PM
The point that the Governors role in this should be highlighted. Sportsmen suffer from the outside influences in politics. Much of the protection of predators comes from these politicians. Add to this the complexity of tribes and thier contributions of $ to these same folks makes the department's job more complex.So let me get this straight,
WDFW biologists only care about their own jobs but if hunting and fishing ends they will be out of a job. And the bios reducing antlerless tags to try to manage the herds and boost numbers is the bios not doing their job. And those bios, who spend years in college studying wildlife, spend more time in the field studying herds and their interactions with other animals and their habitat than most of us do, know less about wildlife management than we do.
Huh
NO. However, when we are in a clear predator pit, and the Bio's aren't raising a stink about WDFW's lack of aggressive predator management it's obvious where their priorities are.
The bios pushed for and the commission approved an increase in the cougar quota in a couple of areas and the governor blocked it.
One thing a guy could do is sent the governor a well worded email telling him to let the bios do their jobs. Call the regional biologist and ask questions, why the reduction in tags, what can a person do to help the herd, etc.
If sportsmen spoke on with a more unified voice it would eliminate a bunch of complexity in thier job. I'm not saying that all the WDFW employees are friends of sportsmen, but the reality is much different than the idealism. Saying a bio should do what's good for the herd or quit doesn't really solve much. You have to play the game to win, and most sportsmen are doing a horable job of playing.
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If I was a Bio I would go get interviews, and express my growing concern over the predator problem. I would constantly educate people on what's going on, and how WDFW'S policies are completely against sound predator Management.
I'm getting a little sick of the excuses, and the attitude that hunters need to limit their opportunities so that the herds can handle the increased predators.
What I’m trying to say is there is a lot of speculation of why the tags are reduced and the only people who have a clue are the bios working the herd. I’m not sure who is making excuses for the predators but I trust the bios to make a good decision for the herd, not for the hunters.
There has been a tough winter and some drought. Add to that, not a lot has been done for habitat except from wild fires in the last two summers, which is going to help carrying capacity, and yeah tags will get reduced. I am glad that they are doing something instead of doing nothing and, if the herd numbers are low, reduce the antlerless tags.
Everyone wants to blame everyone else but they won’t change their own ways by letting WDFW reduce tags to manage herds no matter the reason.
Post by: buglebrush on April 24, 2018, 02:59:12 PM
The point that the Governors role in this should be highlighted. Sportsmen suffer from the outside influences in politics. Much of the protection of predators comes from these politicians. Add to this the complexity of tribes and thier contributions of $ to these same folks makes the department's job more complex.So let me get this straight,
WDFW biologists only care about their own jobs but if hunting and fishing ends they will be out of a job. And the bios reducing antlerless tags to try to manage the herds and boost numbers is the bios not doing their job. And those bios, who spend years in college studying wildlife, spend more time in the field studying herds and their interactions with other animals and their habitat than most of us do, know less about wildlife management than we do.
Huh
NO. However, when we are in a clear predator pit, and the Bio's aren't raising a stink about WDFW's lack of aggressive predator management it's obvious where their priorities are.
The bios pushed for and the commission approved an increase in the cougar quota in a couple of areas and the governor blocked it.
One thing a guy could do is sent the governor a well worded email telling him to let the bios do their jobs. Call the regional biologist and ask questions, why the reduction in tags, what can a person do to help the herd, etc.
If sportsmen spoke on with a more unified voice it would eliminate a bunch of complexity in thier job. I'm not saying that all the WDFW employees are friends of sportsmen, but the reality is much different than the idealism. Saying a bio should do what's good for the herd or quit doesn't really solve much. You have to play the game to win, and most sportsmen are doing a horable job of playing.
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If I was a Bio I would go get interviews, and express my growing concern over the predator problem. I would constantly educate people on what's going on, and how WDFW'S policies are completely against sound predator Management.
I'm getting a little sick of the excuses, and the attitude that hunters need to limit their opportunities so that the herds can handle the increased predators.
What I’m trying to say is there is a lot of speculation of why the tags are reduced and the only people who have a clue are the bios working the herd. I’m not sure who is making excuses for the predators but I trust the bios to make a good decision for the herd, not for the hunters.
There has been a tough winter and some drought. Add to that, not a lot has been done for habitat except from wild fires in the last two summers, which is going to help carrying capacity, and yeah tags will get reduced. I am glad that they are doing something instead of doing nothing and, if the herd numbers are low, reduce the antlerless tags.
Everyone wants to blame everyone else but they won’t change their own ways by letting WDFW reduce tags to manage herds no matter the reason.
Actually everyone wants to blame everything else except the real culprit which is over-predation. What's so incredibly frustrating is when people think that hunters should just roll over and accept lost opportunity due to over-predation. Especially when the unreasonably high and growing predator numbers are a direct result of WDFW's management. Don't you understand that when reducing hunter harvest is always the answer, rather than increasing predator harvest we are truly in a hopeless scenario? That's what this thread is about, but maybe being from Seattle you haven't fully experienced the predator pit like we in the NE have.
Listen to this podcast about efforts being made in Idaho. http://averyadventures.com/41-justin-webb/
Can you imagine the difference that would be made if Washington would look at the issue this way? I still say the Bio's need to grow a pair or OTC hunting is going to be a thing of the past in this state, and as success rates and opportunities dwindle future hunter recruitment will dwindle. It's a vicious cycle.
Post by: Special T on April 24, 2018, 03:04:49 PM
I won't stop hunting wa because I can't afford to hunt out of state. But I have stopped buying elk tags. Bear and cougar and coyote is my main focus and I may not hunt deer this year either. But I will not stop hunting predators in WA. If more hunters spent the time they spend on deer and elk on cougar and bear we might be able to make a change. Remember cougar quotas only count in the late season.I belive that in some way this is where we need to make a push. Largely because it is the within our control. Granted there are issues relating to cougar quotas and not enough spring bear seasons, but there are huge areas that don't come anywhere near the harvest caps.
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Post by: jasnt on April 24, 2018, 04:31:48 PM
dosent matter how many cougar are killed in any gmu until late season starts. If more folks actually stopped hunting deer and elk and focused solely on predators we could deff make a difference! No one wants to hear it but it's true. Give our deer and elk a year off and get after those predators folks. You can sit and complain all you want but it's one way we can make a difference, we don't have the numbers to be heard in a state full of anti hunters. But we do have the numbers to control bear and cats and k9's if we put some effort into doing so.I won't stop hunting wa because I can't afford to hunt out of state. But I have stopped buying elk tags. Bear and cougar and coyote is my main focus and I may not hunt deer this year either. But I will not stop hunting predators in WA. If more hunters spent the time they spend on deer and elk on cougar and bear we might be able to make a change. Remember cougar quotas only count in the late season.I belive that in some way this is where we need to make a push. Largely because it is the within our control. Granted there are issues relating to cougar quotas and not enough spring bear seasons, but there are huge areas that don't come anywhere near the harvest caps.
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Post by: buglebrush on April 24, 2018, 04:48:23 PM
dosent matter how many cougar are killed in any gmu until late season starts. If more folks actually stopped hunting deer and elk and focused solely on predators we could deff make a difference! No one wants to hear it but it's true. Give our deer and elk a year off and get after those predators folks. You can sit and complain all you want but it's one way we can make a difference, we don't have the numbers to be heard in a state full of anti hunters. But we do have the numbers to control bear and cats and k9's if we put some effort into doing so.I won't stop hunting wa because I can't afford to hunt out of state. But I have stopped buying elk tags. Bear and cougar and coyote is my main focus and I may not hunt deer this year either. But I will not stop hunting predators in WA. If more hunters spent the time they spend on deer and elk on cougar and bear we might be able to make a change. Remember cougar quotas only count in the late season.I belive that in some way this is where we need to make a push. Largely because it is the within our control. Granted there are issues relating to cougar quotas and not enough spring bear seasons, but there are huge areas that don't come anywhere near the harvest caps.
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I'm all for it, but the fact remains that without Hounds any serious reduction in the lion population isn't likely. Same goes for OTC Spring bear. And of course we can't do anything about wolves in WA.
In other news wouldn't it be terrible if hunters all started carrying a pound of Xylitol and dumping it on their gut piles! It's extremely toxic to all canines; and perfectly safe for Humans, bears, etc... I mention this, because if someone didn't know that it's toxic they may sweeten their gut-pile and not realize that if a wolf or coyote eats it he'll die! :yike:
Post by: jasnt on April 24, 2018, 05:23:23 PM
Post by: Mr Mykiss on April 24, 2018, 06:16:44 PM
Post by: Tbar on April 24, 2018, 06:20:00 PM
I’m asking it we should have predators be our ONE THING? Sounds like it should and we should put all other concerns aside...like decimating the eastern Washington mule deer herd with 600 antlerless tags in the “Washtucna” unit...see there it is...if PREDATORS are our thing we need to stay focused on that ONE THING. Let’s do it.What's the justification for the tag increase? Guarantee its not objective related.
Post by: Mudman on April 24, 2018, 06:38:45 PM
Post by: jasnt on April 24, 2018, 06:54:14 PM
I’m asking it we should have predators be our ONE THING? Sounds like it should and we should put all other concerns aside...like decimating the eastern Washington mule deer herd with 600 antlerless tags in the “Washtucna” unit...see there it is...if PREDATORS are our thing we need to stay focused on that ONE THING. Let’s do it.thats not the point I'm trying to make. But you can't help the deer population by continuing to kill deer, and Wdfw isn't going to do much with out a clear message that we want change. Plenty of hunters only buy deer and elk tags. Imagine the message it would send is the amount of bear and cougar tags where like deer and elk and vice versa! Don't stop fighting for mule deer and elk. But stop funding the problem. It's a lot to ask hunters to stop buying tags, and most won't stop. No matter the cause. I'm just saying take a break from deer and elk and maybe help them out by taking your fair share of bear, cougar, and coyote.
Post by: CarbonHunter on April 24, 2018, 07:15:54 PM
The fix will need to be a balanced approach of habitat improvements along with predator management. My main concern is that there does not appear to be a well thought out management plan by our biologists or perhaps there methods of counting the herds is flawed? For 2 years in a row they have made a drastic last minute deduction of permit numbers in the same area. This year we went into the rule making session looking at the possibility of elimination of the early cow hunts because the herd was below objective. Yet the WDFW did not propose a reduction of the bull tags saying that “bull hunts would remain” :dunno:
Like I’ve said before, the WDFW is a state government organization and if they want to make changes to the rules they are supposed to allow for public comment. This was the excuse that Inslee used to overturn the WDFW rule change that increases the cougar quotas a couple years ago. . Isn’t it convenient when this rule only applies to the point of view of the liberal?
The fact is hunters are now only 5% of the population of Washington and a growing population does not support our hunting heritage. Every time we loose these hunting opportunities we rarely see them return and when the WDFW gets away with removing opportunities without public comment, when will our voices ever be hear?
That’s why I’m asking when should we consider all hope is lost of us getting the opportunities back. Even if the herds return, will the state let us hunt them? This is why it is so important that we as hunts find a way to make sure our voices are heard.
Post by: jasnt on April 24, 2018, 07:27:33 PM
Post by: CarbonHunter on April 24, 2018, 07:45:35 PM
No where in the state are we above carrieing capacity. Habitat is not the issue
There is a lot of habitat issues in western wa and even in the cascades. Where logging has not occurred since the mid 90’s there is very pour habitat. Back in the 90’s it was common to see deer with 2-3 fawns and now we are lucky to see them with 1 in the West. With disease, pour habitat, urbanization, the liberals... the wolves are even reluctant to come to Western Washington.
The eastern 1/3 of our state still has good habitat and even with the excessive predator population the area is still capable of producing deer.
Post by: bobcat on April 24, 2018, 07:49:09 PM
I’m asking it we should have predators be our ONE THING? Sounds like it should and we should put all other concerns aside...like decimating the eastern Washington mule deer herd with 600 antlerless tags in the “Washtucna” unit...see there it is...if PREDATORS are our thing we need to stay focused on that ONE THING. Let’s do it.
You keep bringing up the 600 doe permits as if they're something new. The also eliminated 500 2nd deer permits from the same area, they just were smaller parts of the new Washtucna permit area. So it's not quite as bad as you make it sound. This area is predominantly private land, and I'm assuming the goal is to keep the deer numbers at a level that landowners (farmers/ranchers) will tolerate.
Post by: KFhunter on April 24, 2018, 07:53:28 PM
I've already apologized in advance for spoiling a few deer hunts this next season when I go out blowing on predator calls in prime deer areas; I kept waiting until deer season was over but then that Jan1 comes quickly.
Post by: Mr Mykiss on April 24, 2018, 07:55:28 PM
Predators...let’s get em hunted...a lot.
Post by: bobcat on April 24, 2018, 08:16:48 PM
Post by: KFhunter on April 24, 2018, 08:22:34 PM
I'm starting in Sept now instead of waiting until first snows in November, our only chance at doing something with cats (despite WDFW) is blow through the quota's hard prior to Jan 1.
There's so many cats we don't really need the snow, yes it's a nice affirmation of when/where and how long ago...but with so many cats you're pretty safe to assume if it looks catty, one's around, regardless if you can find easy tracks in the snow.
Kill 1 Cougar and you've paid for your deer for life. If I see two Cougars copulating I'm shooting the one on the bottom. (yes I seen it :chuckle: )
Post by: hunter399 on April 24, 2018, 08:32:01 PM
No where in the state are we above carrieing capacity. Habitat is not the issue
There is a lot of habitat issues in western wa and even in the cascades. Where logging has not occurred since the mid 90’s there is very pour habitat. Back in the 90’s it was common to see deer with 2-3 fawns and now we are lucky to see them with 1 in the West. With disease, pour habitat, urbanization, the liberals... the wolves are even reluctant to come to Western Washington.
The eastern 1/3 of our state still has good habitat and even with the excessive predator population the area is still capable of producing deer.
I can tell ya the eastern side of the state is not far behind the west side ,otc doe hunts for archery and muzzle loader,along with permits for modern,is gonna be a slaughterhouse of does this year.I'm all about doe permit for youth,disabled,65 and over,but after this year you will see negative impacts to northeast corner .After this the east side won't be capable if we keep going this direction.
Post by: jasnt on April 24, 2018, 08:41:23 PM
:yeah:thats how I killed my first cougar lol
I'm starting in Sept now instead of waiting until first snows in November, our only chance at doing something with cats (despite WDFW) is blow through the quota's hard prior to Jan 1.
There's so many cats we don't really need the snow, yes it's a nice affirmation of when/where and how long ago...but with so many cats you're pretty safe to assume if it looks catty, one's around, regardless if you can find easy tracks in the snow.
Kill 1 Cougar and you've paid for your deer for life. If I see two Cougars copulating I'm shooting the one on the bottom. (yes I seen it :chuckle: )
Post by: jmscon on April 24, 2018, 09:44:45 PM
No where in the state are we above carrieing capacity. Habitat is not the issue
There is a lot of habitat issues in western wa and even in the cascades. Where logging has not occurred since the mid 90’s there is very pour habitat. Back in the 90’s it was common to see deer with 2-3 fawns and now we are lucky to see them with 1 in the West. With disease, pour habitat, urbanization, the liberals... the wolves are even reluctant to come to Western Washington.
The eastern 1/3 of our state still has good habitat and even with the excessive predator population the area is still capable of producing deer.
Agree! I remember hiking in the 80’s and 90’s in areas that all the tree ages were the same and the canopy was so dense that the only thing that grew on the ground was moss. Nothing has been done to the National Forest land that I hiked on back then. The dense growth has made the trees susceptible to disease and bugs and is what is burning up throughout the cascades every year. At least the timber companies have kept logging. I have seen it that way in NE WA too but not as bad as the western slopes of the cascades.
Logging is cyclical as well. What was logged in the twenties-thirties-forties was logged in the sixties-seventies-eighties and is getting logged now, except on National Forest land.
What is going on with the wolves in the eastern 1/3 is BS. Emotionally driven instead of scientifically driven management. I think people like that whack job from WSU who used his emotional agenda as science should be drug through the coals!
I also think that if we got rid of all the predators we would have a disease ridden mess of game herds! The one thing we as hunters don’t do is target the sick and weak animals in the herds. We are apex predators but we selectively harvest healthy animals.
Post by: KFhunter on April 24, 2018, 10:42:43 PM
Post by: Timberstalker on April 25, 2018, 07:51:25 AM
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/cougar/
Post by: jmscon on April 25, 2018, 08:40:00 AM
No one said anything about getting rid of all the predators.
It was part of a scenario that carbon threw out there.
Post by: Special T on April 25, 2018, 08:42:34 AM
Not that we could even if we wanted to. Without hounds and foot hold traps there is no way we could eterimante any of them. Not even if the season was year round.No one said anything about getting rid of all the predators.
It was part of a scenario that carbon threw out there.
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Post by: buglebrush on April 25, 2018, 08:55:58 AM
Post by: Special T on April 25, 2018, 10:49:59 AM
We definitely need to all focus more on hunting them, but to really get a broad base of people committed most people will have to see a tangible personal benefit. I'm not defending that, just stating it's human nature. I'm thinking we need a "Foundation for wildlife management" like Idaho that reimburses expenses for every predator killed in WA. If we're going to make a serious impact without brining back hounds, OTC spring bear, etc... That's what it'll take.I'm for something like that.
I think the best coyote derby I've seen organized, not participated in, was the one in the NE that ran for a month, turned in coyotes got raffle tags for great prizes. Something like that in each regional of that scale would be awesome.
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Post by: Mr Mykiss on May 07, 2018, 01:40:23 PM
Listen to this podcast about efforts being made in Idaho. http://averyadventures.com/41-justin-webb/Done. Joined. Not a wolf hater by any means but active management is a grand idea. It would be interested to hear their take on WA and OR...
Can you imagine the difference that would be made if Washington would look at the issue this way? I still say the Bio's need to grow a pair or OTC hunting is going to be a thing of the past in this state, and as success rates and opportunities dwindle future hunter recruitment will dwindle. It's a vicious cycle.