Post by: mfswallace on April 30, 2018, 08:48:16 PM
Depending on which unit you applied for, you might have a better chance at drawing a permit to hunt big game in Utah this fall.
Buck deer, buck pronghorn, bull moose and Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep are among the animals for which Division of Wildlife Resources biologists are recommending a permit increase.
Covy Jones, big game coordinator for the DWR, says most of the state’s big game species are doing well. “If you enjoy hunting or viewing big game,” Jones says, “it’s a great time to live in Utah.”
Starting March 19, all of the DWR’s big game permit recommendations should be available at www.wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings.
“The recommendations are arranged by unit,” Jones says, “so you can visit the web page and zero in on the units you applied for.”
Learn more, share your ideas
After you’ve reviewed the ideas at www.wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings, you can let your Regional Advisory Council members know your thoughts by attending your upcoming RAC meeting or by sending an email to them.
RAC chairmen will share the input they receive with members of the Utah Wildlife Board. The board will meet in Salt Lake City on April 26 to approve big game permit numbers for Utah’s 2018 hunts.
Dates, times and locations for the RAC meetings are as follows:
Southern Region
April 3
5 p.m.
Beaver High School
195 E. Center St.
Beaver
Southeastern Region
April 4
6:30 p.m.
John Wesley Powell Museum
1765 E. Main St.
Green River
Northeastern Region
April 5
6:30 p.m.
DWR Northeastern Region Office
318 N. Vernal Ave.
Vernal
You can also provide your comments to your RAC via email. Email addresses for your RAC members are available at www.wildlife.utah.gov/dwr/rac-members.html.
The group each RAC member represents (sportsman, non-consumptive, etc.) is listed under each person’s email address. You should direct your email to the people on the RAC who represent your interest.
Permit recommendations
The following are the total number of permits DWR biologists are recommending for Utah’s 2018 big game hunts:
Hunt 2017 2018
General buck deer 89,050 91,050
Premium limited entry deer 184 184
Management buck deer 61 71
(including “cactus” bucks)
Limited entry deer 1,191 1,153
Doe deer 1,470 1,955
General any bull elk 15,000 15,000
Youth any bull elk 500 500
General spike bull elk 15,000 15,000
Limited entry bull elk 2,833 2,892
Cow elk, public draw 9,830 10,090
Cow elk, private lands only 8,790 9,105
Buck pronghorn 849 1,021
Doe pronghorn 750 760
Bull moose 68 84
Cow moose 22 34
Bison 148 152
Bison (archery only) 10 15
Desert bighorn sheep 53 56
Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep 32 40
Mountain goat 106 117
Mountain goat (archery only) 2 4
Big game animals doing well
While all of Utah’s big game species are doing well, Jones is especially excited about the following:
General buck deer
After the deer hunts are over each fall, DWR biologists go afield and classify the number of bucks, does and fawns on each unit. On 11 of Utah’s 29 general season units, biologists want to see 15 to 17 bucks per 100 does. On the remaining 18 units, the objective is 18 to 20 bucks per 100 does.
Based on the number of bucks observed after the hunts last fall, biologists are comfortable allowing more permits on 10 units. On six units, they’re recommending a permit decrease. On 13 units, permit numbers would stay the same as 2017.
On most of the units where an increase is recommended, the general rifle hunt has been split into two hunts—an early hunt in September and a later hunt in October.
“Permits will be split between two hunts,” Jones says. “That should help reduce hunter crowding and hopefully allow everyone to have a good experience.”
Buck pronghorn
A new management plan for pronghorn will give more hunters a chance to hunt buck pronghorn in Utah this fall.
Data collected in Utah and other states suggest two things about buck pronghorn in the West: excluding bucks that are taken by hunters, survival rates for bucks are relatively low (typically less than 80 percent). And they attain most of their horn size by two years of age.
“Because of these lower survival rates ” Jones says, “and because most of their horn growth occurs by two years of age, it doesn’t make sense to manage for older animals.”
Utah’s pronghorn management plan was revised in fall 2017. “The plan directs us to manage the population such that the average age of pronghorn taken by hunters is between two and three years of age,” he says.
In past years, most pronghorn taken by hunters in Utah were almost four years old.
“Because we are now managing for younger animals,” Jones says, “we can offer more hunting opportunities this fall while still providing a quality opportunity for hunters.”
Bighorn sheep
In the case of Rocky Mountain bighorns, a new population on the Oak Creek Mountains has increased to the point that hunters can take a few rams. “And the population on the Newfoundland Mountains is doing really well,” Jones says. “We’re excited that more Rocky Mountain and desert bighorn sheep opportunities might be offered in Utah this fall.
https://www.heraldextra.com/sanpete-county/sports/dwr-announces-big-game-permit-proposals-for-hunts/article_0509493c-7c51-574c-988a-2f1893256309.html
http://www.standard.net/Hunting/2018/04/05/Despite-national-decline-hunting-and-fishing-remains-strong-in-Utah
https://www.ksl.com/?sid=39620186&nid=1288
Post by: Tbar on April 30, 2018, 08:56:35 PM
Post by: Buzz2401 on April 30, 2018, 09:15:20 PM
Post by: Bob33 on April 30, 2018, 09:23:43 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 30, 2018, 09:37:27 PM
Post by: RB on April 30, 2018, 09:38:59 PM
Washington has three times as many people per square mile as Utah. Tough to compete with that.
:yeah:
Smallest Western State and highest population, there are more people in King County than some entire states!
Post by: Knocker of rocks on April 30, 2018, 09:48:24 PM
Smallest Western State and highest population, there are more people in King County than some entire states!
Paging California
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 30, 2018, 10:10:42 PM
Yeah, it's not really a matter of "knowing" how to manage wildlife, it's really dependent on the amount of habitat available and the number of people wanting to hunt the wildlife within the particular state. I'm pretty sure our DFW knows how to manage wildlife, and they choose to manage for the most hunter opportunity and the most revenue.Too busy trying to appease the greenies than to manage wildlife. Cats and bears are high, no law says dogs can't be used for yotes, etc.
Post by: Tbar on April 30, 2018, 10:27:03 PM
Post by: mfswallace on May 01, 2018, 09:53:01 AM
Post by: hunter399 on May 01, 2018, 10:05:45 AM
Wasn't trying to delete anything. I was trying to edit the title to reflect more of a game herd managment aspect than anything about managing land issues and also add a few more articles but as happens with phones sometimes, I left nothing when I closed tab... continue on with the glorification of WA as a predator first management strategy, it's working out so well we definitely shouldn't look at any other states for examples on how to increase ungulates.I agree
It might be time to go a different way of game management ,cause Washington is not getting it done.I want more quality,and quantity of game in that order .I want my 4pt min back!
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on May 01, 2018, 10:58:30 AM
:dunno: If you believe in privatization of wildlife... And a deviation from the model.
Amen
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on May 01, 2018, 11:00:22 AM
:dunno: what happened to the topic? The op realize what Utard is all about? Utah is the model of how not to manage. They are corrupt from all aspects. We are headed that direction though, they sell 10% of the goat tags and 20% of the sheep tags.
Yup
Post by: Karl Blanchard on May 01, 2018, 11:01:20 AM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on May 01, 2018, 11:02:41 AM
Wasn't trying to delete anything. I was trying to edit the title to reflect more of a game herd managment aspect than anything about managing land issues and also add a few more articles but as happens with phones sometimes, I left nothing when I closed tab... continue on with the glorification of WA as a predator first management strategy, it's working out so well we definitely shouldn't look at any other states for examples on how to increase ungulates.I agree
It might be time to go a different way of game management ,cause Washington is not getting it done.I want more quality,and quantity of game in that order .I want my 4pt min back!
How about the knowledge that you will be able to go afield each year? Is that important?
Post by: mfswallace on May 01, 2018, 11:41:31 AM
Elk Harvest Comparison of Western States 2012 – 2016
bull elk game camera photo
Photo taken with Moultrie Game Cam. Click on photo for larger image.
I live in the Inter-mountain West and can hunt elk every year with Over-the-Counter (OTC) tags, but constantly keep track of harvest data in other western states for out of state elk hunts.
I gathered data from the state harvest reports to compare the elk harvest data from all western states that still have OTC elk tags.
At the beginning of the New Year (2018), the most up to date harvest data is from the 2016 hunt seasons. This page was originally started in 2012 and has been been updated every year and now includes elk harvest data for each year since 2012.
New tables include Total Elk Harvested, Total Bull Elk Harvested, Total Hunters and Hunter Success.
I originally kept track of the elk harvest from 11 Western States, but now only keep collect harvest data from seven Western States that still have Over-the-Counter (general season) elk hunts; Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Oregon, Utah, Washington and Wyoming.
Five of these states (Colorado, Idaho, Oregon, Utah & Washington) still have OTC tags available for non-resident hunters.
I dropped Arizona, California, Nevada and New Mexico. because these states only offer limited entry elk hunting (except for a very limited number of OTC tags in Arizona).
Table 1. Total Elk Harvested in 7 Western States with OTC Tags 2012 – 2016
State 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 AVG
Colorado 43,490 43,606 41,900 44,852 39,306 43,631
Wyoming 26,365 25,968 25,905 24,749 25,852 25,768
Montana 20,550 20,154 25,735 30,924 24,532 24,379
Idaho 16,028 16,231 20,088 23,836 21,326 19,502
Oregon 17,455 16,596 18,772 18,707 17,446 17,795
Utah 16,332 16,879 17,133 19,294 NA 17,410
Washington 9,162 7,246 6,966 7,829 6,796 7,600
Note: Table 1 is ranked by highest average total elk harvested to lowest. Total Elk include Bull Elk and Antlerless Elk, which includes all cows and calves, from all general (OTC) and limited entry (controlled) hunts for all weapons.
Most Elk are Harvested in Colorado
Colorado always has the largest total elk harvest every year (Table 1) and also has the most bull elk harvested (Table 2) and has averaged over 43,000 total elk and just under 22,000 total bull elk each season.
Colorado should have the largest elk harvest because it has the largest elk population, but there were also twice as many hunters in Colorado as any other state (the average is now over 219,000 – Table 3).
In fairness, Colorado has lots of different seasons, so the hunting pressure is spread out. Overall hunter success in Colorado is 5th placed at 19.4% (Table 4).
Table 2. Total Bull Elk Harvest in 7 Western States 2012 – 2016
State 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 AVG
Colorado 22,208 22,766 22,435 22,558 19,997 21,993
Montana 10,452 10,446 13,142 13,703 11,089 11,766
Wyoming 11,649 11,276 10,976 10,949 12,339 11,438
Oregon 10,963 10,801 12,065 11,598 11,054 11,296
Idaho 9,476 9,355 11,309 13,111 12,386 11,127
Utah 7,683 8,131 7,659 8,090 NA 7,891
Washington 4,945 4,075 3,838 4,467 4,074 4,280
Note: Table 2 is ranked by highest average total bull elk harvested to lowest. Bull Elk include all Antlered Elk including Spike Elk if the state keeps separate records and includes all general season and limited entry hunts for all weapons.
Wyoming and Montana Ranked 2nd and 3rd for Elk Harvest
I call Wyoming and Montana 2nd tier elk hunting states (for overall elk numbers), with total elk harvests ranging between about 20,000 to 30,000 for the 2012 – 2016 hunt seasons.
The average number of elk harvested is very similar between Wyoming (ranked 2nd), just ahead of Montana in the range of 24 – 25,000 total elk harvested.
As for total bull elk harvested, Montana ranks 2nd (average just under 12,000 bull elk) and Wyoming ranks 3rd after the 2016 harvest.
Idaho has ranked with both Wyoming and Montana the past two years for total bull elk harvest, but the 5 year average still ranks behind Oregon.
In this “2nd Tier” group, Montana has averaged the most hunters (over 109,000) followed by Oregon and Idaho. Wyoming has the least number of hunters of all seven states with an average of only 58,100 elk hunters per season.
Wyoming claims an amazing overall 44.4% average hunter success rate (includes OTC tags), followed now by Utah at 26.2% (pending the 2016 harvest data). Idaho dropped to third place followed by Montana.
Note: Wyoming only has OTC tags available for residents and Montana has gone to a draw for Non-residents (but almost everyone still draws). Colorado and Idaho have thousands of OTC tags available for non-residents.
Table 3. Total Elk Hunters in 7 Western States 2012 – 2016
State 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 AVG
Colorado 215,326 219,166 217,769 221,274 223,745 219,456
Montana 102,861 107,568 107,663 113,959 113,577 109,126
Oregon 103,176 106,639 106,982 106,884 104,216 105,579
Idaho 83,693 88,978 96,220 103,207 101,805 94,781
Washington 67,950 68,572 66,606 68,012 63,557 66,939
Utah 59,175 66,374 69,503 71,175 NA 66,557
Wyoming 57,331 57,785 58,266 58,959 58,159 58,100
Note: Table 3 is ranked by highest average Number of Hunters to lowest.
Idaho, Oregon and Utah Elk Harvest Ranked 4th, 5th and 6th
Idaho, Oregon and Utah are third tier elk hunting states. They were fairly close for the total number of elk harvest with all three states averaging between 17,000 – 19,000 total elk harvested in the last four or five years.
Oregon and Idaho have averaged about 11,000 bull elk and Utah has averaged about 8,000 bull elk harvested each season.
Oregon averages nearly 106,000 elk hunters each season (3rd highest), Idaho has averaged 94,000 and while hunters in Utah are increasing, the four year average has only been about 66,000 hunters (2nd lowest).
In this group, the success rate is lowest in Oregon at 16.8% (6th place overall), and hunter success in Idaho averages 20.9%. That makes Utah look pretty good with a 26.2% success rate (4th place) and all three of these states issue thousands of OTC tags. Elk Populations in Utah are still growing, so look for lots of antlerless tags to be issued in the future.
Table 4. Elk Hunter Success in 7 Western States 2012 – 2016
State 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 AVG
Wyoming 46.0% 44.9% 44.5% 42.0% 44.5% 44.4%
Utah 27.5% 25.4% 24.7% 27.1% NA 26.2%
Montana 20.0% 18.7% 23.9% 27.1% 21.6% 22.3%
Idaho 19.2% 18.2% 20.9% 23.1% 22.5% 20.9%
Colorado 20.0% 19.9% 19.2% 20.3% 17.6% 19.4%
Oregon 16.4% 15.6% 17.5% 17.5% 16.7% 16.9%
Washington 13.5% 10.6% 10.5% 11.5% 10.7% 11.4%
Note: Table 4 is ranked by highest average Hunter Success to lowest.
Washington Elk Harvest Ranked 7th
Washington State is a 4th tier elk hunting state, but Washington still offers many OTC tags, so there is a better chance to hunt elk in Washington than in Arizona, California, Nevada and New Mexico combined.
Hunters have harvested between 7,000 and 9,000 elk each season in Washington (2012 – 2016) and have harvested between 3,800 and 5,000 bull elk.
Washington has averaged about 68,000 elk hunters per season, which is more than Utah and Wyoming. Hunting elk in Washington must be tough since the overall harvest success is only 11.5%.
Days of Hunter Effort per Elk Harvest
I’ve started including a new metric that is used by a few states (Wyoming) that I think is a useful compromise between a hunters chances of finding elk and hunter density, and that is the number of hunter days per elk harvest. It is simply the total number of days all hunters spent in the field divided by the total number of elk harvested.
Obviously, all hunter days in the field are not equal. Some hunters climb the highest mountains and hike many miles into the backcountry and others play pocket pool most of the day at camp, but this is a fair representation of how much effort the average hunter will spend to kill an elk.
Table 5. Elk Hunter Effort to Elk Harvest in 6 Western States 2012 – 2016
Numbers represent the number of Hunter Days per Elk Harvest and the table is ranked by the average days from low to high.
State 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 AVG
Wyoming 17.6 17.8 19.2 19.5 18.3 18.5
Utah 19.2 20.8 21.5 20.3 NA 20.5
Colorado 25.5 25.4 27.6 25.9 30.0 26.8
Oregon NA 38.6 34.6 NA NA 36.5
Montana 43.2 45.7 36.7 33.9 43.5 39.9
Idaho 55.8 57.9 51.2 44.8 27.8 46.4
Remember these data are from all weapons and all seasons (general and Limited) combined. Wyoming comes out on top with a five year average of 18.5 hunting days per elk harvested. Utah is in 2nd place with a four year average of 20.5 days per elk harvest.
Colorado is in 3rd place with 26.8 days per harvest and Oregon, Montana and Idaho bring up the rear with 36, 39 and 46 days per harvest.
Washing State is not included because they do not provide hunter effort in their harvest reports. Oregon usually does not provide that data, but I found hunter recreation days for two years in 2013 and 2014, so I used it.
This is obviously related to hunting success, but it puts the amount of effort it takes for the average hunter to harvest an elk.
If harvest success is 20%, that also means 1 hunter out of five harvested an elk. Or it would take five seasons for everyone to get an elk (on average). How many days is five seasons? That depends on the state and the type of hunt, but knowing the average number of days per harvest puts it in perspective.
I know what you’re thinking. Surely we can do better than average. If it takes the average hunter 20 – 40 days to get an elk, we can do it in half that amount of time (10 – 20 days).
I’ll bet you’re right.
Post by: mfswallace on May 01, 2018, 11:49:34 AM
3. Utah
Utah rivals Arizona when it comes to trophy elk hunting.
In fact, the world record non-typical elk was taken in the state back in 2008—on public grounds.
Both Utah and Arizona have yielded big elk on public grounds, more than other states. Many hunters say that the two states have the best public land hunting, period.
Post by: mfswallace on May 01, 2018, 12:32:07 PM
"where there is a will, there is a way"!
Post by: Bob33 on May 01, 2018, 12:38:34 PM
Post by: KFhunter on May 01, 2018, 12:39:18 PM
I thought maybe you got mad and deleted the first post or something, making it an empty topic. Glad it's fixed and thanks to whomever unlocked it.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on May 01, 2018, 12:51:16 PM
Post by: mfswallace on May 01, 2018, 12:53:30 PM
Post by: mfswallace on May 01, 2018, 01:18:01 PM
Seattle - Tacoma - Bellevue = 4million residents or over half Washington population, now take the rest of population 3.2 and voila WA is Utah without the number of elk specifically from data but ungulates overall.
Biggest point here is, What is Utah doing to have an increase in game herds resulting in increases in Hunter participation over the last 6 yrs when majority of states are seeing decline in participation and being hurt by dwindling coffers.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on May 01, 2018, 01:50:28 PM
Post by: Bob33 on May 01, 2018, 01:58:38 PM
Bob33-- did you make these graphs ? Thanks for helping illustrate my pointYes, I made them. Thank you.
Seattle - Tacoma - Bellevue = 4million residents or over half Washington population, now take the rest of population 3.2 and voila WA is Utah without the number of elk specifically from data but ungulates overall.
Biggest point here is, What is Utah doing to have an increase in game herds resulting in increases in Hunter participation over the last 6 yrs when majority of states are seeing decline in participation and being hurt by dwindling coffers.
Post by: baldopepper on May 01, 2018, 02:24:11 PM
Utah has like 3x the public lands as wasgington. It's also a larger state. More habitat=More animals. I agree Utah does some things better than us but their prostitution of their wildlife should not be idolized.Keep in mind that a very, very large chunk of the public land in Utah is not viable elk or deer habitat. (most of the western half of the state). When you throw in the amount of lands that were taken away with the CWMU units (don't let anyone kid you about them opening up ground to the public as that's just plain not true when compared to the ground taken away from one time public access) I suspect Utah does not actually have a whole lot, if any, more public huntable ground than Washington. I know a lot of Utah hunters who would get a good laugh out of anyone proclaiming they have a great management system, but that's pretty much true of hunters in any state when asked about how their home state is doing. Grass always seems greener on the other side of the fence.
Post by: bobcat on May 01, 2018, 02:25:48 PM
Post by: baldopepper on May 01, 2018, 02:44:05 PM
Post by: mfswallace on May 02, 2018, 09:43:03 PM
https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,224960.0.html
Post by: buglebrush on May 02, 2018, 09:50:53 PM
Here are some graphs of the data referenced above.
The population data is extremely skewed because of Seattle.
Post by: Ironhead on May 03, 2018, 08:32:02 AM
In Utah, can residents hunt deer and elk with a rifle every year?You can hunt spike Elk on a general season tag with a rifle. No OTC Deer hunts with a rifle.
Post by: idahohuntr on May 03, 2018, 10:16:45 AM
their prostitution of their wildlife should not be idolized.:yeah:
The way that state manages it's tags in the Expo program...people should be in jail.
Post by: Tbar on May 03, 2018, 10:26:11 AM
:yeah:their prostitution of their wildlife should not be idolized.:yeah:
The way that state manages it's tags in the Expo program...people should be in jail.
I am not sure how they aren't jailed! The corruption and "cooperative partners in conservation" not only rob the wildlife, they pilfer the funds generated from selling the wildlife!
Post by: baldopepper on May 03, 2018, 10:31:36 AM
Utah has worked very hard to get the reputation of being one of the most corrupt states in the union and their tag programs only solidifies that reputation. I have no idea why the sportsmen there tolerate it. (grew up there and love the state, but the politics and corruption make it impossible for me to live there)their prostitution of their wildlife should not be idolized.:yeah:
The way that state manages it's tags in the Expo program...people should be in jail.
Post by: bigtex on May 03, 2018, 10:44:51 AM
:yeah:Utah has worked very hard to get the reputation of being one of the most corrupt states in the union and their tag programs only solidifies that reputation. I have no idea why the sportsmen there tolerate it. (grew up there and love the state, but the politics and corruption make it impossible for me to live there)their prostitution of their wildlife should not be idolized.:yeah:
The way that state manages it's tags in the Expo program...people should be in jail.
I think it's just in the culture. The citizens want $ out of everything just like the government does. Utah seems to be in a different world.
Post by: Ironhead on May 03, 2018, 11:47:19 AM
They are mandated by law to give only 30% of the $5.00 application fee for conservation. Nobody (but SFW)really knows what they do with the other 70%.Utah has worked very hard to get the reputation of being one of the most corrupt states in the union and their tag programs only solidifies that reputation. I have no idea why the sportsmen there tolerate it. (grew up there and love the state, but the politics and corruption make it impossible for me to live there)their prostitution of their wildlife should not be idolized.:yeah:
The way that state manages it's tags in the Expo program...people should be in jail.
Post by: Ironhead on May 03, 2018, 11:53:00 AM
It doesn't bother the residents of Utah as bad because all of the 200 tags for the Expo come out of the Non resident tag allocation, and the residents have a much shorter drive to be in attendance than most of the Non residents. ( you have to be at the Expo in order to validate your applications).Utah has worked very hard to get the reputation of being one of the most corrupt states in the union and their tag programs only solidifies that reputation. I have no idea why the sportsmen there tolerate it. (grew up there and love the state, but the politics and corruption make it impossible for me to live there)their prostitution of their wildlife should not be idolized.:yeah:
The way that state manages it's tags in the Expo program...people should be in jail.
Post by: idahohuntr on May 03, 2018, 02:24:03 PM
I think you're missing the point. It has nothing to do with logistics or even who gets the 200 tags (NR v R; having to drive to register, etc.)...a state agency giving a private group 200 highly coveted tags and only requiring 30% of the funds be used for conservation is complete and total fraud. For the state to also reject a bid from another entity that stated it would return 100% of the funds generated from those 200 tags should result in another round of criminal prosecutions.It doesn't bother the residents of Utah as bad because all of the 200 tags for the Expo come out of the Non resident tag allocation, and the residents have a much shorter drive to be in attendance than most of the Non residents. ( you have to be at the Expo in order to validate your applications).Utah has worked very hard to get the reputation of being one of the most corrupt states in the union and their tag programs only solidifies that reputation. I have no idea why the sportsmen there tolerate it. (grew up there and love the state, but the politics and corruption make it impossible for me to live there)their prostitution of their wildlife should not be idolized.:yeah:
The way that state manages it's tags in the Expo program...people should be in jail.
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on May 03, 2018, 02:33:00 PM
There was a huge turnaround in rancher attitudes toward game damage in eastern Wyoming in the 90s, as years of drought and low cattle prices turned hunting from a mostly free or small revenue source and wildlife as a nuisance, to most ranchers making hunting a significant part of their livelihood. Game damage complaints and costs dropped 90% as landowners saw dollar signs rather than damage from the deer, elk and antelope.
Post by: Ironhead on May 03, 2018, 04:28:18 PM
I was trying to explain why, the Utah sportsmen tolerate it. I fully understand the point.I think you're missing the point. It has nothing to do with logistics or even who gets the 200 tags (NR v R; having to drive to register, etc.)...a state agency giving a private group 200 highly coveted tags and only requiring 30% of the funds be used for conservation is complete and total fraud. For the state to also reject a bid from another entity that stated it would return 100% of the funds generated from those 200 tags should result in another round of criminal prosecutions.It doesn't bother the residents of Utah as bad because all of the 200 tags for the Expo come out of the Non resident tag allocation, and the residents have a much shorter drive to be in attendance than most of the Non residents. ( you have to be at the Expo in order to validate your applications).Utah has worked very hard to get the reputation of being one of the most corrupt states in the union and their tag programs only solidifies that reputation. I have no idea why the sportsmen there tolerate it. (grew up there and love the state, but the politics and corruption make it impossible for me to live there)their prostitution of their wildlife should not be idolized.:yeah:
The way that state manages it's tags in the Expo program...people should be in jail.
Post by: wolfbait on May 10, 2018, 01:59:20 AM
20K people would not be deer hunting and nearly 20k people would not be hunting elk. Success rates would go up but simply because there would be less hunters. Washington had 112K deer hunters and 59K elk hunters. If we wanted a truly good hunting experience here we would need better predator management and way less people in the woods each year.
:yeah:
Watching the decline of mule deer in the Methow the last 10-15 years do to WDFW's promotion and protection of predators, hunting pressure has and will continue to decline in the areas of no hunting success.
Strict predator control by the public would go along way in restoring the herds, we have all witnessed that waiting on WDFW to do the right thing is a waste of time.
Promoting predator control, engaging young hunters in the need of predator control to grow the game herds would be a huge step in the right direction.
Looking back in my early years I hunted practically year around, "coyote" season was always open.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on May 10, 2018, 05:53:46 AM
Post by: PlateauNDN on May 10, 2018, 06:49:03 AM
Post by: bearpaw on May 10, 2018, 09:52:43 AM
Utah has over the counter spike only elk hunts and over the counter any bull elk hunts, sold first come basis, with a quota limiting the total tag sales. There are numerous units that are limited-entry elk units and typically that is where the largest and best quality hunting is found. Until a couple years ago Utah had over the counter deer tags with a quota that were sold first come. In an effort to bring back mule deer in Utah they started limited-entry in every unit style deer management. As a result there are fewer deer hunters but deer numbers are climbing. Utah has also instituted much more intense predator management, we quit doing lion hunts in Utah because we can't keep as high of success rate there as we can in Idaho. Some cougar hunters dislike that you have to hunt harder, but deer herds are rebounding. Utah also implemented a coyote bounty a few years ago, anti-hunters hate that, but deer herds are rebounding.
States Have Various Management Styles
Every state has a different management style and there is probably something that everyone will dislike about every state. It's impossible for any state to satisfy all the people all the time. Look at the opposing views on this forum, there are no two people who agree on everything.
Statistics
The ratio of hunters in WA is one of the lowest in the western states. Only a small percentage of WA residents hunt and very few NR's hunt in WA. Whereas roughly 30%+ of Montana, Idaho, Wyoming residents hunt and hunters from every state and numerous countries flock to these states every fall, including many hunters from WA. Colorado has a high human population and lots of resident hunters, plus hunters from all over the world flock to Colorado every fall. Colorado sells more elk hunting licenses than any other state yet has a higher elk population than even Montana which is probably almost twice as large as CO and MT has one of the smallest human populations. So a graph that shows the number of hunters per square mile might show a much different story. Total elk hunters in CO is roughly 220.000, more than twice any other state and more than three times as many as WA. Colorado has the next highest human density next to Washington, yet there are 3 times as many elk in Colorado.
Reading Statistics, Predators, Disease, Other Variables
So you can look at statistics in many ways. When I look at WA elk numbers it says we have 90,000 elk, more than several other states known to be better hunting, yet only 7600 elk are being harvested by hunters. States with lower elk numbers have a much higher human harvest rate. States with more elk have a higher harvest ratio too. Washington hunters are getting the fewest number of elk per the actual elk population that exists. The numbers tell me that Washington is seriously mismanaging elk and predators, that a larger percentage of the elk being produced in WA are going to predators than to hunters than in any other state. Certainly diseases is another variable, with the increasing presence of hoof rot WA elk hunting seems to have a gloomy future unless many things are drastically changed.
The biggest point here is that even with a high human population WA still has a good elk population. The big difference is that other predators are getting a bigger portion of the elk in WA than in any other state and I think the graphs prove it.
Deer hunting and hunting of other animals in WA face the same types of challenges, mismanagement of the highest level of nearly any western state!
Here are a few graphs that mostly compare data of states with OTC elk tags.
Post by: Bob33 on May 10, 2018, 09:57:25 AM
Post by: bearpaw on May 10, 2018, 09:59:01 AM
Post by: bearpaw on May 10, 2018, 10:06:12 AM
Page 47: https://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01676/wdfw01676.pdf
WDFW currently recognizes 10 major elk herds totaling approximately 56,000 to 60,000 animals.
Post by: bearpaw on May 10, 2018, 10:19:33 AM
They are mandated by law to give only 30% of the $5.00 application fee for conservation. Nobody (but SFW)really knows what they do with the other 70%.Utah has worked very hard to get the reputation of being one of the most corrupt states in the union and their tag programs only solidifies that reputation. I have no idea why the sportsmen there tolerate it. (grew up there and love the state, but the politics and corruption make it impossible for me to live there)their prostitution of their wildlife should not be idolized.:yeah:
The way that state manages it's tags in the Expo program...people should be in jail.
I think Utah has some very good management, overall much better than WA. The biggest difference is that Utah manages predators more aggressively and Utah has recently gone to limited entry on deer to replenish herds whereas WA continues to sell unlimited numbers of deer tags, I guess it depends on what you want out of hunting as to which is better? I see both sides of that issue!
If true, I agree that more than 30% should go back to conservation from the sale of application fees. What application fees are you referencing? Application fees for big game is $10 in Utah! I would like to see some evidence to support that claim, whatever it is that you are claiming? :dunno:
Post by: bearpaw on May 10, 2018, 10:23:09 AM
The graph was wrong, but I think my point should still be taken seriously!
Page 47: https://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01676/wdfw01676.pdf
WDFW currently recognizes 10 major elk herds totaling approximately 56,000 to 60,000 animals.
I'm also wondering if perhaps we used to have 90,000 elk and WDFW has allowed the herds to dwindle to 60,000 in recent years? WDFW has done a pretty good job of hiding historical harvest data on many species!
Post by: Bob33 on May 10, 2018, 10:24:58 AM
The most recent estimate is just over 40,000. The target range is 50,000 to 60,000.The graph was wrong, but I think my point should still be taken seriously!
Page 47: https://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01676/wdfw01676.pdf
WDFW currently recognizes 10 major elk herds totaling approximately 56,000 to 60,000 animals.
I'm also wondering if perhaps we used to have 90,000 elk and WDFW has allowed the herds to dwindle to 60,000 in recent years? WDFW has done a pretty good job of hiding historical harvest data on many species!
Post by: bearpaw on May 10, 2018, 10:28:52 AM
The most recent estimate is just over 40,000. The target range is 50,000 to 60,000.The graph was wrong, but I think my point should still be taken seriously!
Page 47: https://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01676/wdfw01676.pdf
WDFW currently recognizes 10 major elk herds totaling approximately 56,000 to 60,000 animals.
I'm also wondering if perhaps we used to have 90,000 elk and WDFW has allowed the herds to dwindle to 60,000 in recent years? WDFW has done a pretty good job of hiding historical harvest data on many species!
That is the WDFW management plan I quoted saying we have 56k to 60k elk, have we actually lost 16k to 20k elk since 2015?
Post by: idahohuntr on May 10, 2018, 10:29:15 AM
These are the 200 expo tags the state of Utah gives to SFW/MDF for the hunt expo...taken right out of the draw tag pool. $5 app fee, and after 5 years of no requirements, there is now a requirement to spend 30% of that $5 fee on conservation projects. RMEF submitted a bid to give 100% of app fees to conservation projects, but somehow lost out to SFW and their 30%...thereby confirming Utah has the most corrupt DWR in the whole country. They are a joke...actually its not funny...they are criminals. Read a bunch of info at the link below...or just google SFW/Utah...surprised you've never heard of this scam.They are mandated by law to give only 30% of the $5.00 application fee for conservation. Nobody (but SFW)really knows what they do with the other 70%.Utah has worked very hard to get the reputation of being one of the most corrupt states in the union and their tag programs only solidifies that reputation. I have no idea why the sportsmen there tolerate it. (grew up there and love the state, but the politics and corruption make it impossible for me to live there)their prostitution of their wildlife should not be idolized.:yeah:
The way that state manages it's tags in the Expo program...people should be in jail.
I think Utah has some very good management, overall much better than WA. The biggest difference is that Utah manages predators more aggressively and Utah has recently gone to limited entry on deer to replenish herds whereas WA continues to sell unlimited numbers of deer tags, I guess it depends on what you want out of hunting as to which is better? I see both sides of that issue!
If true, I agree that more than 30% should go back to conservation from the sale of application fees. What application fees are you referencing? Application fees for big game is $10 in Utah! I would like to see some evidence to support that claim, whatever it is that you are claiming? :dunno:
http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID5/24863.html
Post by: Bob33 on May 10, 2018, 10:32:18 AM
See attached. I received this from WDFW a couple weeks ago and was told the actual number is just over 40,000.The most recent estimate is just over 40,000. The target range is 50,000 to 60,000.The graph was wrong, but I think my point should still be taken seriously!
Page 47: https://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01676/wdfw01676.pdf
WDFW currently recognizes 10 major elk herds totaling approximately 56,000 to 60,000 animals.
I'm also wondering if perhaps we used to have 90,000 elk and WDFW has allowed the herds to dwindle to 60,000 in recent years? WDFW has done a pretty good job of hiding historical harvest data on many species!
That is the WDFW management plan I quoted saying we have 56k to 60k elk, have we actually lost 16k to 20k elk since 2015?
Post by: bobcat on May 10, 2018, 10:33:37 AM
This doesn't include the Selkirk herd as they don't seem to have an estimate for that herd, so maybe add another 1,000 or so?
https://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01961/wdfw01961.pdf
Post by: bearpaw on May 10, 2018, 10:41:52 AM
See attached. I received this from WDFW a couple weeks ago and was told the actual number is just over 40,000.The most recent estimate is just over 40,000. The target range is 50,000 to 60,000.The graph was wrong, but I think my point should still be taken seriously!
Page 47: https://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01676/wdfw01676.pdf
WDFW currently recognizes 10 major elk herds totaling approximately 56,000 to 60,000 animals.
I'm also wondering if perhaps we used to have 90,000 elk and WDFW has allowed the herds to dwindle to 60,000 in recent years? WDFW has done a pretty good job of hiding historical harvest data on many species!
That is the WDFW management plan I quoted saying we have 56k to 60k elk, have we actually lost 16k to 20k elk since 2015?
Thanks Bob, it says spring 2018 spring monitoring indicated 40k to 50k elk. I do not know what time of the year numbers are traditionally taken for recording the annual elk population. I would like to think that 40k-50k in the spring translates into 50k to 70k in the fall after calving? However, with the impacts of recent predator increases and hoof rot we may not get much of a bump in population? It appears the elk population is continuing to decline which brings us back to the fact that we probably need to do something different in WA!
Post by: Bob33 on May 10, 2018, 10:49:03 AM
I'm sure there is seasonal variation; I'm not certain how much it changes from spring through fall.See attached. I received this from WDFW a couple weeks ago and was told the actual number is just over 40,000.The most recent estimate is just over 40,000. The target range is 50,000 to 60,000.The graph was wrong, but I think my point should still be taken seriously!
Page 47: https://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01676/wdfw01676.pdf
WDFW currently recognizes 10 major elk herds totaling approximately 56,000 to 60,000 animals.
I'm also wondering if perhaps we used to have 90,000 elk and WDFW has allowed the herds to dwindle to 60,000 in recent years? WDFW has done a pretty good job of hiding historical harvest data on many species!
That is the WDFW management plan I quoted saying we have 56k to 60k elk, have we actually lost 16k to 20k elk since 2015?
Thanks Bob, it says spring 2018 spring monitoring indicated 40k to 50k elk. I do not know what time of the year numbers are traditionally taken for recording the annual elk population. I would like to think that 40k-50k in the spring translates into 50k to 70k in the fall after calving? However, with the impacts of recent predator increases and hoof rot we may not get much of a bump in population? It appears the elk population is continuing to decline which brings us back to the fact that we probably need to do something different in WA!
It certainly does suggest the population is in decline: “…the statewide population was 40,000-50,000 elk, which is the lowest estimate the Department has documented in more than a decade…”
Post by: grundy53 on May 10, 2018, 11:58:00 AM
The st Helen's herd and the willapa hills herd have been getting decimated by hoof rot. Throw in the Yakima herds decline and I'm not surprised that the elk count is way down.I'm sure there is seasonal variation; I'm not certain how much it changes from spring through fall.See attached. I received this from WDFW a couple weeks ago and was told the actual number is just over 40,000.The most recent estimate is just over 40,000. The target range is 50,000 to 60,000.The graph was wrong, but I think my point should still be taken seriously!
Page 47: https://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01676/wdfw01676.pdf
WDFW currently recognizes 10 major elk herds totaling approximately 56,000 to 60,000 animals.
I'm also wondering if perhaps we used to have 90,000 elk and WDFW has allowed the herds to dwindle to 60,000 in recent years? WDFW has done a pretty good job of hiding historical harvest data on many species!
That is the WDFW management plan I quoted saying we have 56k to 60k elk, have we actually lost 16k to 20k elk since 2015?
Thanks Bob, it says spring 2018 spring monitoring indicated 40k to 50k elk. I do not know what time of the year numbers are traditionally taken for recording the annual elk population. I would like to think that 40k-50k in the spring translates into 50k to 70k in the fall after calving? However, with the impacts of recent predator increases and hoof rot we may not get much of a bump in population? It appears the elk population is continuing to decline which brings us back to the fact that we probably need to do something different in WA!
It certainly does suggest the population is in decline: “…the statewide population was 40,000-50,000 elk, which is the lowest estimate the Department has documented in more than a decade…”
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