Post by: JeffRaines on July 19, 2018, 12:22:28 PM
So here’s my dilemma - I’m not brand new to reloading, however I obviously still have a lot to learn. I have a two year old so it really cuts down on my available free time. I purchased a Browning LR Stalker in 7mm Mag a few months ago and it’s awesome. It’s got a 8 twist barrel as well. I want to start trying to shoot the 175-180s out of this rifle.
When I reload, what my loads suffer the most from is inconsistency. I’m often seeing 50fps or more spread. One of the things I was going to start doing is measuring from the ogive vs the tip which is how I’m measuring now... but I know that’s not the entire picture. There’s neck tension, run out, neck turning, and other stuff google searches turn up. It’s a lot to take in, and I’m not sure how much of it applies. I know it all applies technically, but for someone who’s would like to start shooting at steel to 1000 yards and maybe 600 or so yards on game, what percentage of that actually applies to me? What should I be focusing on?
I use hornady dies, I also picked up a neck sizing die as well. I have a hornady single stage press. I use a RCBS balance beam scale for powder.
Thank you.
Post by: boneaddict on July 19, 2018, 12:28:53 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 19, 2018, 12:29:45 PM
1) powder type
2) powder charge
3) primer type
Not necessarily in order
Post by: BULLBLASTER on July 19, 2018, 12:32:00 PM
Consistency is key.
Start with quality components and measure every charge and confirm every round bto length.
Like the Jon said primer types can and will affect Es and sd.
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 19, 2018, 12:33:11 PM
I'm far from being the PRS/BR kind of reloader but I get decent and consistent velocities
Post by: JeffRaines on July 19, 2018, 12:47:32 PM
By buying consistent brass, weight sorting when necessary, and carefully measuring powder, I have got all my hunting rifles well below 20 ES
I'm far from being the PRS/BR kind of reloader but I get decent and consistent velocities
This is what I'm looking for - I don't plan on shooting competitively. However, to reach the ranges I want to reach with any consistency I know I'm gonna need to do better than 50+ ES. I don't expect to hit single digit, but within 20 would be perfect.
Post by: hogslayer on July 19, 2018, 01:00:19 PM
Post by: JeffRaines on July 19, 2018, 01:02:49 PM
I few other things to add that I have noticed. If shoulder bump isn’t consistent it can effect your es. Also is the way you clean your brass. I hardly ever “clean” brass other than some 0000 steel wool on the outside of necks and a nylon brush on the inside. Pay attention to seating force on bullets.
I have a tumbler and use SS media to clean the brass
Post by: h20hunter on July 19, 2018, 01:08:59 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 19, 2018, 01:20:02 PM
Post by: Yondering on July 19, 2018, 01:26:03 PM
IME the biggest variables that alters ES are the:
1) powder type
2) powder charge
3) primer type
Not necessarily in order
Add neck tension and seating depth to that list. Consistent annealing of your brass is a significant factor, and you'll likely find the second firing after annealing is more consistent than the first.
OP, I gotta say though, it sounds like maybe you're chasing the wrong variables first. Start with an OCW (optimum charge weight) test, round robin style, to select the charge in the middle of a node based on horizontal position on the target. Then fine tune for accuracy by testing different seating depths, again round robin style.
At that point, you should have a very stable load that's relatively insensitive to minor velocity variations. This is the point where chasing ES/SD is productive to improve your long range precision. Chasing ES before you do those things is a waste of time IMO, and doesn't necessarily result in the best accuracy.
Post by: birddogdad on July 19, 2018, 01:29:49 PM
oh i will also say for a 7mag at 1Kyds.. you will kill everything you aim at with a 30 SD too.. they shoot pretty flat..... not gonna be that much off.... +- 30fps at 1K should run about 1 moa, (maybe a bit more) dep on BC. Good starting point for a beginner but ABSOLUTELY tightening that up is where its at! I have been working very hard to this end with my hunting 7 mag and am now single dig.... :tup: not a forgiving cartridge either!!!
Post by: BULLBLASTER on July 19, 2018, 01:58:58 PM
all things loaded consistently, and by lots . Next that will help most is NECK TENSION . setup your dies with proper expander balls or bushings or both.... (if you run those) to set 2 or 3 thou. same every time on the squeeze.. remember hardened cases affect this as well. If your going to go long, i would look into annealing processes. you should be able to get close to inside 10 for SD/ED. Remember its a bearing surface, clean area, amount of coverage (length trim), wall thickness and hardening/working metal ect .. it all plays...An sd of 30 would mean an Es of 60+ fps. That difference would be fairly large on target at distance. :twocents:
oh i will also say for a 7mag at 1Kyds.. you will kill everything you aim at with a 30 SD too.. they shoot pretty flat..... not gonna be that much off....
Post by: hogslayer on July 19, 2018, 02:00:08 PM
Post by: jasnt on July 19, 2018, 02:28:57 PM
Honestly I used an old and very precise balance beam that I later compared to a $300 digital scale. No difference I could find.same results here. Balance style are the most consistent. Unless it’s covered in dust or getting some wind from a fan or open window.
To the op. This may help you out a bit
https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLX2aeFXzRrvfwdl-35vchJhAMdptqoykW
Post by: bullfisher on July 19, 2018, 02:45:45 PM
+2 on the beam scale. I recently went back to a beam scale for load work up. Nothing worse then working up a stack for testing only to find your electronic scale was having attitude problems...Honestly I used an old and very precise balance beam that I later compared to a $300 digital scale. No difference I could find.same results here. Balance style are the most consistent. Unless it’s covered in dust or getting some wind from a fan or open window.
To the op. This may help you out a bit
https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLX2aeFXzRrvfwdl-35vchJhAMdptqoykW
Post by: bobcat on July 19, 2018, 02:51:30 PM
Post by: h20hunter on July 19, 2018, 03:13:47 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on July 19, 2018, 04:15:37 PM
Post by: j_h_nimrod on July 19, 2018, 05:01:03 PM
Post by: yorketransport on July 19, 2018, 06:49:21 PM
I've never had a problem getting single digit SDs and an ES of less than 15 using some of the cheapest components I can find. I have a pile of Lee dies, use an old Lyman 505 scale I picked up at a garage sale 10 years ago, anneal whenever I feel like getting around to it, never weight sort my brass, refuse to clean or uniform primer pockets, tumble my brass in the same corn cob/walnut mixed media I've used for the last 3 years, and I'd rather amputate my own arm with a dull hacksaw blade than trim cases.
Where I focus my attention is on picking the right powder for the load I'm trying to come up with. I'll take a 100% case fill over an extra 50 fps any day. With the exception of plinking ammo for handguns and the kids, I weigh every powder charge that I throw and then trickle in the last few granules until I'm happy.
When seating bullets I always seat the bullet half way then rotate the case 180 degrees in the shell holder then seat it the rest of the way. I'm also very consistent with seating pressure. Bottom out the press handle with the same slow and steady force every time.
Don't focus on equipment, focus on technique and using the right components. Using the right powder, right charge and the right primer will help your consistency more than any gadget or trinket somebody tries to sell you.
Post by: j_h_nimrod on July 19, 2018, 07:28:55 PM
I guess I'll be the first one to ask, what's your current load that's giving you the high ES? Odds are that you just need to switch powder.
I've never had a problem getting single digit SDs and an ES of less than 15 using some of the cheapest components I can find. I have a pile of Lee dies, use an old Lyman 505 scale I picked up at a garage sale 10 years ago, anneal whenever I feel like getting around to it, never weight sort my brass, refuse to clean or uniform primer pockets, tumble my brass in the same corn cob/walnut mixed media I've used for the last 3 years, and I'd rather amputate my own arm with a dull hacksaw blade than trim cases.
Where I focus my attention is on picking the right powder for the load I'm trying to come up with. I'll take a 100% case fill over an extra 50 fps any day. With the exception of plinking ammo for handguns and the kids, I weigh every powder charge that I throw and then trickle in the last few granules until I'm happy.
When seating bullets I always seat the bullet half way then rotate the case 180 degrees in the shell holder then seat it the rest of the way. I'm also very consistent with seating pressure. Bottom out the press handle with the same slow and steady force every time.
Don't focus on equipment, focus on technique and using the right components. Using the right powder, right charge and the right primer will help your consistency more than any gadget or trinket somebody tries to sell you.
I’d like to send you a few of my reloads and see what you get for speed and es. I am very precise in my reloading practices and have trimmed, sorted, trued pockets, etc., etc. and less than 30fps es is rare on my Competition Electronics ProChrono Digital... like I mentioned above, I think the area I shoot (fairly over storied) and the cheap chrono lead to the high indicated variations. Overall accuracy is acceptable in most loads. I read about many folks getting single digit es and it just pisses me off...
I have been reloading for well over 20 years and shot a lot for years but only got into more precise loading for long range in the last 10 years. I would like to shoot more but kids and adult responsibilities make my shooting limited.
I plan to get a MagnetoSpeed to remove the light issues I deal with where I typically shoot, but have not yet. I tend to buy guns n ammo before accessories...
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 19, 2018, 07:35:36 PM
The very first thing I would try is fire some rounds and don’t clean them in the SS media. I have found they clean all the carbon out of the necks and make things really inconsistent. Leave that carbon in there and just run a nylon brush through it. You’ll be surprised.Love my ss pin cleaner. Like the shiny new brass results. Wish I could use it but stuck with 0000 steel wool and nylon brush with graphite to get consistency.
Post by: jasnt on July 19, 2018, 07:47:50 PM
Post by: yorketransport on July 19, 2018, 07:59:46 PM
My pro chrono was junk! Accuracy or the pro chrono is +/- 2% if I remember right. It will get you close but not accurate enough to go by es or sd. 1% of 3000fps is 30fps. How can it give you even close to an accurate sd:yeah:
Most folks don't need to buy a high end chronograph like a Magneto or Labradar because they only need to use it a couple time per year. Your best option is to track down somebody close to you who'll let you run a couple shots over their chrony.
Back when I shot primarily standard chamberings and not-so-wildcats I'd just shoot for accuracy and use a chrony to get a rough estimate on my velocity. From there all my data came from actual drops. When I got into more radical wildcatting I used a chronograph to help me gauge my pressures. At that time I used an Oehler 35p and I hated that thing with a passion! Newer chronys like the Magneto sporter are priced so that a couple of buddies could all pitch in and get one to share without breaking the bank.
Post by: HawkCreek on July 19, 2018, 08:04:08 PM
The very first thing I would try is fire some rounds and don’t clean them in the SS media. I have found they clean all the carbon out of the necks and make things really inconsistent. Leave that carbon in there and just run a nylon brush through it. You’ll be surprised.Love my ss pin cleaner. Like the shiny new brass results. Wish I could use it but stuck with 0000 steel wool and nylon brush with graphite to get consistency.
If you dry tumble with corn cob media you get the same shiny brass on the outside, only takes about 4 hours total. Once its loaded up you cant ever tell what the inside looked like so who cares.
Post by: JeffRaines on July 19, 2018, 11:52:17 PM
I guess I'll be the first one to ask, what's your current load that's giving you the high ES? Odds are that you just need to switch powder.
I've never had a problem getting single digit SDs and an ES of less than 15 using some of the cheapest components I can find. I have a pile of Lee dies, use an old Lyman 505 scale I picked up at a garage sale 10 years ago, anneal whenever I feel like getting around to it, never weight sort my brass, refuse to clean or uniform primer pockets, tumble my brass in the same corn cob/walnut mixed media I've used for the last 3 years, and I'd rather amputate my own arm with a dull hacksaw blade than trim cases.
Where I focus my attention is on picking the right powder for the load I'm trying to come up with. I'll take a 100% case fill over an extra 50 fps any day. With the exception of plinking ammo for handguns and the kids, I weigh every powder charge that I throw and then trickle in the last few granules until I'm happy.
When seating bullets I always seat the bullet half way then rotate the case 180 degrees in the shell holder then seat it the rest of the way. I'm also very consistent with seating pressure. Bottom out the press handle with the same slow and steady force every time.
Don't focus on equipment, focus on technique and using the right components. Using the right powder, right charge and the right primer will help your consistency more than any gadget or trinket somebody tries to sell you.
Theres no load yet, its just something I've noticed with my loads in the past.
I have the ProChrono as well - I do quite often get "duplicates", however most have come with factory ammo.
I may try picking up a different powder trickler as well. The one I have came with the kit, so if its like most of the other stuff theres probably better out there. I know it isn't going to make a difference, but it might be easier to trickle the charges up than it is now.
I will try rotating it 180 as you mentioned.
One thing that I've had trouble with is getting the bullet seated to the proper length every time. I'm forever adjusting the die itself to make sure its the right depth.
Post by: birddogdad on July 20, 2018, 06:33:08 AM
all things loaded consistently, and by lots . Next that will help most is NECK TENSION . setup your dies with proper expander balls or bushings or both.... (if you run those) to set 2 or 3 thou. same every time on the squeeze.. remember hardened cases affect this as well. If your going to go long, i would look into annealing processes. you should be able to get close to inside 10 for SD/ED. Remember its a bearing surface, clean area, amount of coverage (length trim), wall thickness and hardening/working metal ect .. it all plays...An sd of 30 would mean an Es of 60+ fps. That difference would be fairly large on target at distance. :twocents:
oh i will also say for a 7mag at 1Kyds.. you will kill everything you aim at with a 30 SD too.. they shoot pretty flat..... not gonna be that much off....
yes out far for sure but OP was hunting inside of 600yds..... should be tight enough for that with a 60 from a 7mag...
Post by: birddogdad on July 20, 2018, 06:45:26 AM
My pro chrono was junk! Accuracy or the pro chrono is +/- 2% if I remember right. It will get you close but not accurate enough to go by es or sd. 1% of 3000fps is 30fps. How can it give you even close to an accurate sd:yeah:
Most folks don't need to buy a high end chronograph like a Magneto or Labradar because they only need to use it a couple time per year. Your best option is to track down somebody close to you who'll let you run a couple shots over their chrony.
Back when I shot primarily standard chamberings and not-so-wildcats I'd just shoot for accuracy and use a chrony to get a rough estimate on my velocity. From there all my data came from actual drops. When I got into more radical wildcatting I used a chronograph to help me gauge my pressures. At that time I used an Oehler 35p and I hated that thing with a passion! Newer chronys like the Magneto sporter are priced so that a couple of buddies could all pitch in and get one to share without breaking the bank.
:yeah: OP listen to anything york posts up here toward shooting topics!!!
Post by: hunter399 on July 20, 2018, 06:53:50 AM
If all your brass is trimed to the same,your oal should be the same every time.you should not have to adjust the die for every cartridge.when starting on a load for the first time,i will by some factory rounds for the brass,shoot them and which ones shoot the best .I will stick one in the die screw it down ,and use a factory round for seating depth.Then start tweaking it after that shooting test loads to see what the rifles likes.I guess I'll be the first one to ask, what's your current load that's giving you the high ES? Odds are that you just need to switch powder.
I've never had a problem getting single digit SDs and an ES of less than 15 using some of the cheapest components I can find. I have a pile of Lee dies, use an old Lyman 505 scale I picked up at a garage sale 10 years ago, anneal whenever I feel like getting around to it, never weight sort my brass, refuse to clean or uniform primer pockets, tumble my brass in the same corn cob/walnut mixed media I've used for the last 3 years, and I'd rather amputate my own arm with a dull hacksaw blade than trim cases.
Where I focus my attention is on picking the right powder for the load I'm trying to come up with. I'll take a 100% case fill over an extra 50 fps any day. With the exception of plinking ammo for handguns and the kids, I weigh every powder charge that I throw and then trickle in the last few granules until I'm happy.
When seating bullets I always seat the bullet half way then rotate the case 180 degrees in the shell holder then seat it the rest of the way. I'm also very consistent with seating pressure. Bottom out the press handle with the same slow and steady force every time.
Don't focus on equipment, focus on technique and using the right components. Using the right powder, right charge and the right primer will help your consistency more than any gadget or trinket somebody tries to sell you.
Theres no load yet, its just something I've noticed with my loads in the past.
I have the ProChrono as well - I do quite often get "duplicates", however most have come with factory ammo.
I may try picking up a different powder trickler as well. The one I have came with the kit, so if its like most of the other stuff theres probably better out there. I know it isn't going to make a difference, but it might be easier to trickle the charges up than it is now.
I will try rotating it 180 as you mentioned.
One thing that I've had trouble with is getting the bullet seated to the proper length every time. I'm forever adjusting the die itself to make sure its the right depth.
It's very important to find that sweet spot of seating depth that your rifle likes then stick with it between different bullets and powder charges.
Post by: hunter399 on July 20, 2018, 07:39:40 AM
Make sure brass is trimmed same every time.might have to get new brass to do this.
Find a seating depth ,that's most accurate in your rifles , and use it.
I just use cheap Lee products but seem to get good accuracy ,i've only been reloading about a year,so still learning myself.
Here's a pic ,where the magic happens :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: CaNINE on July 20, 2018, 08:04:43 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 20, 2018, 08:06:06 AM
-primer pocket cleaning
-primer pocket uniforming
-trimming (except for initial prep to make everything fit)
-clean consistent
-measure bullets
-neck size
-neck turn
-check concentricity
Now I'm not trying to shoot record groups at 1000. I've got two goals for "medium range", there's a white spot on a rock at 580 and another at 640. First shot hits on either of those is my goal and I haven't failed in a while. So while I understand that I might squeeze some additional accuracy out of doubling my work habit on brass prep and bullet sorting, it's just not worth it for a guy like me who is looking to kill deer inside 700 yards.
@yorketransport gets spooky accurate results and some people would be horrified at his procedure :chuckle:
Post by: hunter399 on July 20, 2018, 08:24:59 AM
Things I don't do:You don't clean primer pockets. Explain why
-primer pocket cleaning
-primer pocket uniforming
-trimming (except for initial prep to make everything fit)
-clean consistent
-measure bullets
-neck size
-neck turn
-check concentricity
Now I'm not trying to shoot record groups at 1000. I've got two goals for "medium range", there's a white spot on a rock at 580 and another at 640. First shot hits on either of those is my goal and I haven't failed in a while. So while I understand that I might squeeze some additional accuracy out of doubling my work habit on brass prep and bullet sorting, it's just not worth it for a guy like me who is looking to kill deer inside 700 yards.
@yorketransport gets spooky accurate results and some people would be horrified at his procedure :chuckle:
You don't trim brass after a few reloading explain why?
Post by: Yondering on July 20, 2018, 08:45:02 AM
You don't clean primer pockets. Explain why
You don't trim brass after a few reloading explain why?
Because they don't matter.
Contrary to your earlier posts, trimming has nothing to do with OAL, and very little to do with accuracy at all unless the case length is long enough to pinch in the chamber. Other than that it just doesn't matter.
Post by: Yondering on July 20, 2018, 08:48:09 AM
One thing that I've had trouble with is getting the bullet seated to the proper length every time. I'm forever adjusting the die itself to make sure its the right depth.
Jeff, don't change your die adjustment for each round to chase OAL. You're seeing variations in the length of the bullets themselves, which doesn't matter. What does matter is base to ogive length, and by changing the die you're introducing variation, that's counterproductive.
You need to make sure OAL is short enough to fit in the magazine box of course, but beyond that, go by base to ogive (BTO) instead of OAL. That'll help you be more consistent between different batches of bullets as well.
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 20, 2018, 08:52:48 AM
Things I don't do:You don't clean primer pockets. Explain why
-primer pocket cleaning
-primer pocket uniforming
-trimming (except for initial prep to make everything fit)
-clean consistent
-measure bullets
-neck size
-neck turn
-check concentricity
Now I'm not trying to shoot record groups at 1000. I've got two goals for "medium range", there's a white spot on a rock at 580 and another at 640. First shot hits on either of those is my goal and I haven't failed in a while. So while I understand that I might squeeze some additional accuracy out of doubling my work habit on brass prep and bullet sorting, it's just not worth it for a guy like me who is looking to kill deer inside 700 yards.
@yorketransport gets spooky accurate results and some people would be horrified at his procedure :chuckle:
You don't trim brass after a few reloading explain why?
- Because I don't like wearing away primer pocket brass or wasting time for something which showed no improvement in accuracy in my case
- Because I don't get stretching enough to have trouble chambering and it still shoots well. When you only size far enough to bump the shoulder for ease of chambering, the brass doesn't stretch like a mofo
Post by: jasnt on July 20, 2018, 10:13:33 AM
Post by: hunter399 on July 20, 2018, 10:42:26 AM
I do a lot of full length resize , but for example my kids and wife all use 243 in different rifles , so I try to keep it so all that ammo in the same cal can chamber well in a three different rifles.
Primmer pocket cleaning is just force of habit.
Post by: JeffRaines on July 20, 2018, 12:47:47 PM
One thing that I've had trouble with is getting the bullet seated to the proper length every time. I'm forever adjusting the die itself to make sure its the right depth.
Jeff, don't change your die adjustment for each round to chase OAL. You're seeing variations in the length of the bullets themselves, which doesn't matter. What does matter is base to ogive length, and by changing the die you're introducing variation, that's counterproductive.
You need to make sure OAL is short enough to fit in the magazine box of course, but beyond that, go by base to ogive (BTO) instead of OAL. That'll help you be more consistent between different batches of bullets as well.
Going BTO is the best thing thats happened to me! I just loaded some up, and you're right - I was chasing the variations in bullet length. Once I set it up, I didn't have to change it after that... which made the loading go much faster.
I also turned them 180 degrees while seating.
We'll see if I get a chance to shoot them this weekend
Post by: kisfish on July 20, 2018, 03:05:03 PM
Post by: hunter399 on July 20, 2018, 03:33:22 PM
So if you have one brass that is little long,another that is shorter.and seating depth is set on die , you don't think that the bullet will be seated deeper in the shorter piece of brass.Or effect your OAL.
You don't clean primer pockets. Explain why
You don't trim brass after a few reloading explain why?
Because they don't matter.
Contrary to your earlier posts, trimming has nothing to do with OAL, and very little to do with accuracy at all unless the case length is long enough to pinch in the chamber. Other than that it just doesn't matter.
I do agree it may or may not effect the way it shoots.but if your wanting consistent results your brass should stay the same length.
If you don't wanna trim ,then you should at least measure with caliber and check each reloading and maybe put ones to the side to trim later if needed.
I might be wrong but it just makes since that if both brass or all brass is the same length then then your bullet is seated the same in each case and jump to the lands or rifling stays the same between each cartridge.which anybody that reloads a lot knows that the jump to the rifling has a lot to do with accuracy.
Post by: yorketransport on July 20, 2018, 05:14:32 PM
:yeah: OP listen to anything york posts up here toward shooting topics!!!I don't like to brag, but I'm kind of an expert on being an "internet operator". I've read pretty much everything out there on Facebook regarding shooting. ;)
@yorketransport gets spooky accurate results and some people would be horrified at his procedure :chuckle:
Sometimes I'm surprised that my loads even go off. :chuckle:
So if you have one brass that is little long,another that is shorter.and seating depth is set on die , you don't think that the bullet will be seated deeper in the shorter piece of brass.Or effect your OAL.
I do agree it may or may not effect the way it shoots.but if your wanting consistent results your brass should stay the same length.
If you don't wanna trim ,then you should at least measure with caliber and check each reloading and maybe put ones to the side to trim later if needed.
I might be wrong but it just makes since that if both brass or all brass is the same length then then your bullet is seated the same in each case and jump to the lands or rifling stays the same between each cartridge.which anybody that reloads a lot knows that the jump to the rifling has a lot to do with accuracy.
Nope, case length won't change OAL. The seating die is set up to seat the ogive of the bullet to a specific distance from the base of the case. Regardless of where the case mouth lands, the die is still going to seat the ogive of the bullet at the same distance from the base of the case. A shorter case length would result in less bullet in the case, but it would still be the same distance from the base of the case. That means that the distance from the bullet ogive to the lands is the same since that measurement is made from essentially the bolt face to the lands. Having one case shorter than the rest would mean that you've essentially lengthened the freebore by taking material off the back end instead of the front of the feebore. This won't change your distance from the bolt face to the lands though.
If you want to be competitive in the national level BR competitions then by all means, use whatever tricks you can to build up your confidence. If the goal is just to be able to hit a .75-1 MOA target out to 1000 yards though it's not necessary. I'd love to see the day that I've become such an exceptional marksman that I can say it's my load's fault that I missed a target at some ridiculous range. For now though I'm happy to just admit that sometimes I just plain miss. :o
Post by: Yondering on July 20, 2018, 06:47:45 PM
So if you have one brass that is little long,another that is shorter.and seating depth is set on die , you don't think that the bullet will be seated deeper in the shorter piece of brass.Or effect your OAL.
Yes, exactly. Case length has nothing to do with how far the bullet is seated. The seating die doesn't stop against the case mouth.
Post by: hunter399 on July 20, 2018, 08:42:37 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 21, 2018, 01:42:37 PM
I actually don’t even trim my .45-70 brass which I DO crimp
Post by: BULLBLASTER on July 21, 2018, 04:41:07 PM
Post by: hunter399 on July 21, 2018, 05:12:08 PM
I trim every time. Keeping the case necks the same length means equal bearing surface holding the bullet in each case-thus it helps minimize inconsistency .with everybody that talks about neck tension.It really doesn't matter though.?
I don't crimp unless semi-auto rifle.
Post by: jasnt on July 21, 2018, 06:00:26 PM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 21, 2018, 06:07:33 PM
I did wanna ask you guys a question though.
I trim every time. Keeping the case necks the same length means equal bearing surface holding the bullet in each case-thus it helps minimize inconsistency .with everybody that talks about neck tension.It really doesn't matter though.?
I don't crimp unless semi-auto rifle.
I anneal, trim, fullsize, run a mandrel through necks, dip in Imperial dry necklube, sort bullets and seat to .001 and concentricity < .001. With that done ES will still vary between 4 and 40 depending on powder and seating depth. I suspect at the perfect powder/depth I may be able to shortcut all the other prep.
Post by: hunter399 on July 21, 2018, 06:35:28 PM
I did wanna ask you guys a question though.
I trim every time. Keeping the case necks the same length means equal bearing surface holding the bullet in each case-thus it helps minimize inconsistency .with everybody that talks about neck tension.It really doesn't matter though.?
I don't crimp unless semi-auto rifle.
I anneal, trim, fullsize, run a mandrel through necks, dip in Imperial dry necklube, sort bullets and seat to .001 and concentricity < .001. With that done ES will still vary between 4 and 40 depending on powder and seating depth. I suspect at the perfect powder/depth I may be able to shortcut all the other prep.
Question for you magnu m Willy why do you trim your brass , just wondering some are telling me it's not necessary.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 21, 2018, 06:55:36 PM
I did wanna ask you guys a question though.
I trim every time. Keeping the case necks the same length means equal bearing surface holding the bullet in each case-thus it helps minimize inconsistency .with everybody that talks about neck tension.It really doesn't matter though.?
I don't crimp unless semi-auto rifle.
I anneal, trim, fullsize, run a mandrel through necks, dip in Imperial dry necklube, sort bullets and seat to .001 and concentricity < .001. With that done ES will still vary between 4 and 40 depending on powder and seating depth. I suspect at the perfect powder/depth I may be able to shortcut all the other prep.
Question for you magnu m Willy why do you trim your brass , just wondering some are telling me it's not necessary.
It depends alot on how well your resizing die matches your chamber. If you have a smaller die it shrinks the brass and it has to go somewhere which is out the neck. On mine my neck grows .010 each time which is putting it at max specs. If I bought a gauge and measured my neck clearance maybe I could go a bit longer. Plus I'm pushing the brass hard so its expanding a lot.
Your cartridge has a min and max specification for length. I trim to min each time for consistency. If I neck size I don't need to as it only grows .001 each time. With the perfect fullsize die it might not grow much. I had a custom die made off my brass by whidden but it still grows .010 with just a .002 or .003 shoulder setback.
If your brass is less than max length you don't need to trim unless anal for consistency like many handloaders are.
Post by: hunter399 on July 21, 2018, 07:00:44 PM
Thanks I was just wondering,why some do and some don't,think I understand now. :tup:I did wanna ask you guys a question though.
I trim every time. Keeping the case necks the same length means equal bearing surface holding the bullet in each case-thus it helps minimize inconsistency .with everybody that talks about neck tension.It really doesn't matter though.?
I don't crimp unless semi-auto rifle.
I anneal, trim, fullsize, run a mandrel through necks, dip in Imperial dry necklube, sort bullets and seat to .001 and concentricity < .001. With that done ES will still vary between 4 and 40 depending on powder and seating depth. I suspect at the perfect powder/depth I may be able to shortcut all the other prep.
Question for you magnu m Willy why do you trim your brass , just wondering some are telling me it's not necessary.
It depends alot on how well your resizing die matches your chamber. If you have a smaller die it shrinks the brass and it has to go somewhere which is out the neck. On mine my neck grows .010 each time which is putting it at max specs. If I bought a gauge and measured my neck clearance maybe I could go a bit longer. Plus I'm pushing the brass hard so its expanding a lot.
Your cartridge has a min and max specification for length. I trim to min each time for consistency. If I neck size I don't need to as it only grows .001 each time. With the perfect fullsize die it might not grow much. I had a custom die made off my brass by whidden but it still grows .010 with just a .002 or .003 shoulder setback.
If your brass is less than max length you don't need to trim unless anal for consistency like many handloaders are.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 21, 2018, 07:13:57 PM
Post by: hunter399 on July 21, 2018, 08:02:33 PM
Post by: Yondering on July 21, 2018, 09:03:06 PM
Your cartridge has a min and max specification for length. I trim to min each time for consistency. If I neck size I don't need to as it only grows .001 each time. With the perfect fullsize die it might not grow much. I had a custom die made off my brass by whidden but it still grows .010 with just a .002 or .003 shoulder setback.
That's your answer right there. .010" per firing is crazy, but it's due to your sizing process, not the firing itself. If you size in a way that better matches your chamber, that problem should go away. One of the big areas I see that can cause case stretch like that is pulling the expander ball through a dry case neck with a lot of effort. Try cleaning or even lubing inside the case necks, and you may reduce stretching and also decrease runout quite a bit.
Post by: boneaddict on July 22, 2018, 06:37:09 AM
+1 everytimeI did wanna ask you guys a question though.
I trim every time. Keeping the case necks the same length means equal bearing surface holding the bullet in each case-thus it helps minimize inconsistency .with everybody that talks about neck tension.It really doesn't matter though.?
I don't crimp unless semi-auto rifle.
I anneal, trim, fullsize, run a mandrel through necks, dip in Imperial dry necklube, sort bullets and seat to .001 and concentricity < .001. With that done ES will still vary between 4 and 40 depending on powder and seating depth. I suspect at the perfect powder/depth I may be able to shortcut all the other prep.
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 22, 2018, 08:19:19 AM
Can’t hurt as long as brass isn’t being overworked :tup:
Post by: jasnt on July 22, 2018, 08:48:11 AM
is it an auto loader your setting the shoulder back .003”? Any case head separating. That just seams extreme to me. Mainly because I’ve never seen .01” of brass growth before in a single loading other than a fire form. personally I treat my brass mouths like a muzzle. I want the “crown” to all be identical and free of those factory bumps and such. I can’t say what kind of difference it makes but it makes me feel all warm inside knowing I went the extra mile.I did wanna ask you guys a question though.
I trim every time. Keeping the case necks the same length means equal bearing surface holding the bullet in each case-thus it helps minimize inconsistency .with everybody that talks about neck tension.It really doesn't matter though.?
I don't crimp unless semi-auto rifle.
I anneal, trim, fullsize, run a mandrel through necks, dip in Imperial dry necklube, sort bullets and seat to .001 and concentricity < .001. With that done ES will still vary between 4 and 40 depending on powder and seating depth. I suspect at the perfect powder/depth I may be able to shortcut all the other prep.
Question for you magnu m Willy why do you trim your brass , just wondering some are telling me it's not necessary.
It depends alot on how well your resizing die matches your chamber. If you have a smaller die it shrinks the brass and it has to go somewhere which is out the neck. On mine my neck grows .010 each time which is putting it at max specs. If I bought a gauge and measured my neck clearance maybe I could go a bit longer. Plus I'm pushing the brass hard so its expanding a lot.
Your cartridge has a min and max specification for length. I trim to min each time for consistency. If I neck size I don't need to as it only grows .001 each time. With the perfect fullsize die it might not grow much. I had a custom die made off my brass by whidden but it still grows .010 with just a .002 or .003 shoulder setback.
If your brass is less than max length you don't need to trim unless anal for consistency like many handloaders are.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 22, 2018, 09:12:32 AM
Jas - is your sized brass snug when chambering ?
Post by: jasnt on July 22, 2018, 09:50:21 AM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 22, 2018, 11:23:36 AM
Post by: Yondering on July 22, 2018, 05:19:10 PM
I have a body die that fits my chamber better but doesn't give quite the concentricity that the full length die does but I think I'll try it a bit to save overworking my brass. I'm going to try your suggestion and see what that does.
Just a suggestion - try removing the expander ball assembly from your FL sizing die, and measure if or how much brass grows just from sizing. You may be seeing a lot of the growth from the expander ball pulling too hard.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 22, 2018, 07:09:56 PM
Good idea, but actually been using a mandrel on the one full sizer with a small neck and nothing on the full sizer with the bushing neck.I have a body die that fits my chamber better but doesn't give quite the concentricity that the full length die does but I think I'll try it a bit to save overworking my brass. I'm going to try your suggestion and see what that does.
Just a suggestion - try removing the expander ball assembly from your FL sizing die, and measure if or how much brass grows just from sizing. You may be seeing a lot of the growth from the expander ball pulling too hard.
Post by: wooltie on July 23, 2018, 10:02:02 AM
A load that works well for me is one where I see 4-5 sequential charge weights shoot moa or better at 100 yards. Each charge pretty much groups the same. For example, I'll shoot 50-51 grains in .3 grain intervals. This tells me the load is supposedly stable across this charge range, so I pick a charge in the middle.
I wasted a ton of time and powder using 4350 and barely got anything to group. Then I switched to 4064 and saw groups in the manner I just described. 4350 grouped at max charge or higher but I didn't like primer and case signs I was seeing.
I'm going for moa or better and stability though. I'm seeing .5 moa, some rounds touching, and that more than good enough for hunting to 300 yards. I want a consistent, stable load that'll always shoot moa or better.
I just didn't see this until I switched powders.
I'm also seeing amax spread of 20 fps over 10-15 rounds.