Post by: Diehard0123 on March 18, 2009, 07:34:45 AM
Post by: Wacenturion on March 18, 2009, 07:53:04 AM
Post by: Gobble on March 18, 2009, 08:25:46 AM
personally I would like them to give it another try with some nuisance birds.
Post by: Diehard0123 on March 18, 2009, 08:31:35 AM
Absolutely not! That was tried back in the 60'-early 70's in a couple places....unsuccessful. The only viable bird for the west side is the Eastern.Do you have a link or somthing to back this up, the only reason I ask is because I have never seen anything stating that WDFW has planted mirriams on the west side.
Post by: turkeydancer on March 18, 2009, 08:43:34 AM
Easterns are the best choice (Rios were also considered and would actually be a better choice than Merriams ... but this is a very touchy, emotional and political subject with many turkey hunters).
You can find a history of turkey plants in Washington by reading the states 10 year Wild Turkey Management Plan available on the WDFW site --- or you can ask Wac who was there for a lot of them and is the most knowledgeable person I know on Wa St turkeys and probably has the info you requested at his finger tips (I have never known him to lead anyone astray, and I have to wonder why you would doubt what he said - was it because it wasn't the answer you wanted to hear - LOL). :dunno:
Post by: turkeydancer on March 18, 2009, 09:13:28 AM
Post by: fishunt247 on March 18, 2009, 10:23:01 AM
Post by: turkeydancer on March 18, 2009, 11:18:47 AM
Post by: fishunt247 on March 18, 2009, 11:46:11 AM
Post by: turkeydancer on March 18, 2009, 11:51:32 AM
Post by: fishunt247 on March 18, 2009, 02:24:40 PM
Post by: NWTFhunter on March 18, 2009, 03:13:04 PM
I think its pretty chicken *censored* to let a couple of organic guys tell them what to do.
Post by: Wacenturion on March 18, 2009, 03:14:58 PM
Absolutely not! That was tried back in the 60'-early 70's in a couple places....unsuccessful. The only viable bird for the west side is the Eastern.Do you have a link or something to back this up, the only reason I ask is because I have never seen anything stating that WDFW has planted Merriam's on the west side.
Don't have the exact dates in front of me, but as TurkeyDancer said, you may find it in WDFW 10 year plan. However Merriams were experimented with at Scatter Creek and I believe the Port Angeles area in the mid 70's. There may have been a few other spots on the westside.
If you doubt what I'm saying about Merriams not being suitable for the westside then ask yourself a simple question. When Merriams first took off in the 60's in Klickitat County and then new blood was brought in the form of much larger numbers of Merriams to revive them during the 80's and 90's.....why did they not expand beyond eastern Skamania County to any large degree. The answer is the habitat changed significantly, that's why.
Post by: Wacenturion on March 18, 2009, 03:18:18 PM
I have also heard of a few people seeing birds from the top of Snoqualmie down to North Bend, but I think these birds are an anomoly. Technically, Skamania county is the westside, right? And there are merriams there. But aside from that, it is eastern country.
Fishunt247....agree. Some so called Merriam's spotted on the westside and touted as doing well are in most cases game farm reared and released birds that are pretty well domesticated and spend time in and around town folks. A perfect example is up in the La Conner area.
Post by: Wacenturion on March 18, 2009, 03:32:19 PM
Turkeydancer, Thanks for posting that info about the Organic farmers protesting the release of new birds in the NW corner of the state. You beat me to it !!
I think its pretty chicken *censored* to let a couple of organic guys tell them what to do.
NWTF...........don't blame the farmers for voicing their concerns. If Rio's had been released there, you would have had in all likeyhood nuisance problems.
Here's some comments I had on this subject on another forum.....
Ironically Rio Grandes by somebody's logic is the bird for Whatcom. Because they do well in up to 35 inch precip. in Oregon? Yeah Whatcom county is in the rain shadow of the Olympics and has areas of 35 inches, but someone better take a look at a precip. map and you'll see that the areas they want these birds to spread into is north/northeast where precip. ranges go way above 35 inches....60-100+. Want to bet where those Rios are going to end up "IF" successful......yep.....right in that farm and dairy belt with the lowest precip. An idiot can see this coming.
Bite the bullet and get easterns.....they don't tolerate people and stay in the woods unlike their mooching cousins, Rios and Merriams. Check the research...very lttle damage from easterns compared to the others. Better get it right the first time....there won't be a second chance. My two cents.
Here's a point of reference regarding said release of Rio's. Remember they historically come from areas with somewhere around 15-30 inches of precipitation...thats pretty close without looking it up....you know Texas, Kansas.
They have done well in Oregon and California in areas up to around 35 inches. Look at Whatcom County on the link to the precip. map. You'll see that that 35 inch or less precip. range is essentially west of the Noosack River to Puget Sound. That area is disected by I-5 with the population centers...i.e. Bellingham etc located within this area. Now notice the areas they want these birds to take in....east and north of the Noosack. Do the precip. ranges give any hint of what's going happen if successful? Yep...they will take up residence in the more open areas to the west with all the dairy cows, farms and people.
Just wished these biologists would at least have started with the basics of the appropriate subspecies biology....unbelievable.
Yelp...agree...if and when problems occur, WDFW will take the obvious course of action.....food bank em'.
http://www.nationalatlas.gov/printable/images/pdf/precip/pageprecip_wa3.pdf
I guess if we are all going to be blunt, then so will I. This is more of a desire to get birds than a desire to get it right. I can understand that reasoning as it's frustrating to have available habitat and get left out of the loop when birds were being released elsewhere. However as SD points out, if you get it wrong the powers to be will never ever consider putting birds in Whatcom again. Fact and you can count on it.
These same people i.e. the biologist who made the comment in the previous post and her staff are the same ones who made it nearly impossible to get easterns up there (Snohomish County) during the 90's. The only reason....and I'll repeat it again....the only reason that WDFW is going foward with a release up there is because through their statewide planning process they were able to smoke and mirror everyone into buying that line of crap about wait and see everywhere else in the state....but had to throw you guys a scrape...a spoiled one to boot.
WDFW I'm sure in the back of their minds probably feel that Rio's won't take so if we have to do something to appease NWTF members this is the least offensive to lowest risk to them. Take a breath and look at whats going on.....more and more liberalization of fall seasons, kill permits to eliminate birds, no releases in Klickitat or Yakima counties etc. That overabundance of Merriams should be relocated to those areas but.....they aren't, not because of some dumb ass management plan...rather staff in those regions don't want them and thats how they disguised it. The plan is just a tool to manipulate you guys and every other turkey hunter in the state. Look at the recent business meeting where you apparently, in their minds gave the the green light to put the two beardless birds in play this fall. Wake up....you do have some power...use it.
You have WDFW right where you want them...they have approved a release, there are landowner concerns, easterns are available from National this year and foreseeable future. Landowners get a straight answer and will support the release from lack of nuisance fears, the correct subspecies gets released, Whatcom county ends up with a sustainable turkey population for recrational purposes. Win win situation. The other way you're looking at just the opposite...good chance Rios won't make it, potential for obvious nuisance problems, pissed off landowners...never wnat to see any more turkeys. These are all things that could happen...why risk it? If the WaNWTF decided easterns you would still have them for this coming year....just an adjustment prior to implementation. A point of business at the summer meeting perhaps......
There a big difference in marketing this release to concerned landowners when you can absolutely assure them of no nuisance problems with easterns vs. the likelyhood of problems with Rio's. Completely eliminates the concern and gains support from that base. It all in how you deal with those folks.
Just saw a piece in the local paper reprinted from the Bellingham Newspaper......the planned introduction into Whatcom county is dead. Due to overwhelming responses opposed to the release the WDFW has decided against it.
Too bad this thing was so ill conceived. Could have been a continuation of the few Easterns that did get released in Snoh. county years ago.
Did notice the Biologist mentioned in the article that the 5 mile radius that they expected the birds to expand into did take in a small portion where farms exist. Five mile radius of expansion....that's about the dumbest thing I ever heard. What did WDFW plan on doing ...putting out those electronic invisible fences that you use to keep the dog in the yard. These people don't even understand basic turkey biology, let alone population recruitment and expansion.
Unbelievable to say the least.......
As Paul Harvey would have said...."Now you know the rest of the story"
Post by: turkeydancer on March 18, 2009, 03:39:14 PM
Post by: turkeydancer on March 18, 2009, 05:33:29 PM
It is also not true that the NWTF wanted the 2 beardless bird season - we were very against that, but Mick did what he wanted to do on his own. TT and I have become involved because we care about the future of turkey hunting in this state, but with limited input and good info, we have to believe the NWTF biologists will know what they are doing and not make blunders. I have also said it many times, that you should get involved with the process if you care as much as you seem to care. Or at least come to the state meeting and speak up ... I can guarantee you that by not doing so that decisions you don't agree with will happen. Be like the organic farmers, stand up and complain if you don't think its the right decision ... but do it when, where and to who that will make it counts .... we will give you that opportunity by letting you know when the state meetings are and where they are held (summer meeting is at Camp Delaney at Sun Lakes State Park starting Friday afternoon July 17th thru Sunday morning July 19th).
Post by: Diehard0123 on March 18, 2009, 05:55:11 PM
Yes, it was discussed at great lengths. Habitat is the key and it is very important to note that the Merriams subspecies is a pine forest bird ... although there is some pines on this side of the Cascades, it is limited to a few scattered stands (we are predominately fir here). They would not do well! :bdid:
Easterns are the best choice (Rios were also considered and would actually be a better choice than Merriams ... but this is a very touchy, emotional and political subject with many turkey hunters).
You can find a history of turkey plants in Washington by reading the states 10 year Wild Turkey Management Plan available on the WDFW site --- or you can ask Wac who was there for a lot of them and is the most knowledgeable person I know on Wa St turkeys and probably has the info you requested at his finger tips (I have never known him to lead anyone astray, and I have to wonder why you would doubt what he said - was it because it wasn't the answer you wanted to hear - LOL). :dunno:
I was not aware that I could not ask for a source!!!! I have read the wild turkey management plan and have never seen anything stating that WDFW have ever planted Mirriams on the west side. I have heard alot of disscussion in other circles about the possibility of doing it. I WAS NOT EXPECTING TO BE TREATED LIKE A CHILD for asking a simple question. I have been hunting turkey for about 11 year now and I have done much of my own research. I have seen Mirriams on the west side myself and It makes me wonder why these bird are moving into the area, is it because they may find the conditions sutable? I do not have the answer but I also do not believe that the biologists for the WDFW have all the answers. Most of their research is based on habitat of the original range of the birds.
Post by: turkeydancer on March 18, 2009, 06:07:09 PM
Post by: Wacenturion on March 18, 2009, 06:07:45 PM
One thing you said though....
"I said that the organic farmers stopped the transplant - that is a true statement - and it would not have mattered what subspecies were considered, they would still have protested at the last minute."
The second part of your statement is debatable. If the Eastern subspecies had been put forward it could have been promoted without the overhanging cloud of potential nuisance. It would have taken some effort up front to convince them, by doing such things as providing landowner contacts in say Thurston County that they could ask the question....Have any problem with those turkeys down there? They tend to believe their own. When I say it would have taken some effort up front....that should have been an intregal part of the whole process. Seek out any potential problem spots in the road and fix them before you drive the car down it. Again....ill conceived from start to finish. Now please understand I'm not blaming you and the rest of the NWTF guys, but I do blame the Federation Biologists and subsequently the WDFW for leading all of you down the wrong path and screwing up an opportunity that's now gone forever. Just my take is all. :twocents:
Post by: Wacenturion on March 18, 2009, 06:22:22 PM
Bottom line is western Washington is not the type of habitat Merriams do well in. It also is generally outside their perferred precipitation range (specific to time of year). If you are seeing some birds they are either an anomaly as stated earlier or game farm stock.
Last but not least why would we want to hybridize our easterns? Although hybridization occurs in the State it is a result of the overlap of subspecies (i.e. Merriams and Rio's Lincoln/Stevens counties) which is beyond our control...not a result of releasing birds with an intent of hybridizing them.
Post by: turkeydancer on March 18, 2009, 06:28:25 PM
As stated earlier on both forums, TN and I wish we could have gotten your input earlier in that game. However from my sources at that meeting, the organic farmers were not interested in any facts as they had already made up their minds. The WDFW was not interested in any "conflict" of any nature, did not try to easy their fears with any facts and immediately put there tail between their legs, killed the project, and left. Again, it wouldn't have mattered if it was easterns and they had every piece of data, recommendations, etc know to man. The farmers did not want to take a chance and the WDFW is running scared and does not want conflict of any kind. Also National could have provided the necessary support then, but was treating us as an ugly stepchild. I think they are starting to realize that they better get involved soon, or risk us becoming a lot less involved. My 2 cents worth ... :twocents:
Post by: clay on March 18, 2009, 06:33:09 PM
Post by: NWTFhunter on March 18, 2009, 06:41:31 PM
Post by: turkeydancer on March 18, 2009, 06:44:11 PM
(Wac & Fish especially) ... Forgive me if I inadvertently have stepped on anyones toes I seem to do that from time to time without realizing it, although it is never my intent. Note that I have a ton of things going on over the next 10 days at least (including my chapter banquet, hunting clinic, increasing OT at work, etc) so will not be able to visit with you guys as often as I would like ... feel free to PM me if anything real important needs my attention or input ... I will try to do a quick scan as time allows, but will only get involved on a case to case basis otherwise ... good luck with the turkey hunting.
Wac my boy is up for meeting up in No Lincoln County as mentioned earlier (he is so excited about hunting there again) ... just say where and when and we'll meet you.
Post by: Wacenturion on March 18, 2009, 08:08:28 PM
NWTF...you said
'I agree with you 100% Turkeydancer... The local organic farmers were not going to listen to any support provided by any group that they were better off with one species than another. They threatened a law suit, and WDFW dropped it like a hot rock !"
Still disagree in the sense as I tried to state before.....it should have been an integral part of the process from the beginning. Sometimes inclusion into a process can turn potential opposition into your best supporters. Of course those landowners were opposed and threatened a possible law suit....they were left out of the loop till the end. They showed up at the final public meeting (and I think the first and final were at the end of the process)and opposed the releases based on the fact that WDFW could not assure them there would not be any nuisance problems or at least a way to compensate for it if there was.
It was simply a rush to get something up there without thinking things out. Getting angry at landowners as some did near the end of the process served no real purpose. Sitting down with them at that point and trying to find a solution might have provided a means to find an acceptable solution. Maybe I'm just too naive....but I've been there in those types of situations...... done that .....and it works!
Post by: yelp on March 18, 2009, 08:48:10 PM
Diehard..Great question...That is what these forums are for. There are many people on here that know a lot about turkeys, some I know are old fart hunters that have lots of experience hunting these damn birds, some I know are presidents and chapter presidents of the Washington state turkey federation and they spend all of their time educating and chasing the damn bird too, not to mention raising funds to assist the wild turkey. Then there are old fart biologists that have more experience than a lot of us on here put together. We all spend time on here for the same reasons you do. To talk about turkeys. I don't think any of these guys on here meant you any disrespect.
I'm going to bed...Yelp out!
Post by: Moose Eyes on March 18, 2009, 09:17:06 PM
Wacent - thanks for the Rio info. I was going to bring it up until I got to your posts. I didin't realize the Oregon Rios are only doing well in the 35 inch rainfall areas. They are also in Hawaii - I have seen them on the Big Island. I should read up on the rainfall there. The Big Island is so varied in it's geography - some dry and barren and some extremely wet. I have seen them both north and south of Kona but never on the east side by Hilo where all the rain is.
I have always thought the Sequim/Port Angeles area would be good for turkeys since that area is protected from rain to a great degree. Anybody know if WDFW has considered that area?
Post by: Diehard0123 on March 19, 2009, 06:56:33 AM
Post by: Wacenturion on March 19, 2009, 07:55:14 AM
The initial releases of easterns in the Johnson Creek area were in the mid to late 80's (1st Pa. birds, then some from Missouri). Those visible flock(s) existed soon after. Additional releases of some of those Iowa birds were used in that area and others to supplement and add some different blood in the late 90's. They were released in areas away from the visible birds.
Those visible flock(s) could be considered a good thing. They provide a nucleus in that area that spreads out in the spring and adds recruitment to the overall area as far as new birds are concerned. Also allows people that don't expend the energy looking to actually believe they exist...lol. :chuckle:
Post by: Wacenturion on March 19, 2009, 08:25:01 AM
Lots of good info being exchanged here.
Wacent - thanks for the Rio info. I was going to bring it up until I got to your posts. I didin't realize the Oregon Rios are only doing well in the 35 inch rainfall areas. They are also in Hawaii - I have seen them on the Big Island. I should read up on the rainfall there. The Big Island is so varied in it's geography - some dry and barren and some extremely wet. I have seen them both north and south of Kona but never on the east side by Hilo where all the rain is.
I have always thought the Sequim/Port Angeles area would be good for turkeys since that area is protected from rain to a great degree. Anybody know if WDFW has considered that area?
Moose Eyes....To answer your questions........
Oregon's Rios basically do well from an area south of Salem to the California line with the Roseburg area being the cat's meow. However those western Oregon counties (Salem north to the NW tip of Oregon) that are similar in habitat and precipitation to our western Washington counties provide no harvest....0 birds taken as shown by Oregon's harvest reports.
Eastern releases were considered and pushed for back in the late 80's by personnel within the ol' Dept. of Wildlife. Ity was however shot down by other powers to be within the agency. Shame...would have been a positive thing