Mirriams on the West side, any thoughts?

[Diehard0123]

Just wondering if anyone thinks that it might be possible for Mirriams to be successfully introduced on the West side?  Based on all of the biology info I have read about habitat is seems like they might do well in certain areas of Western Washington.  What are your thoughts?

[Wacenturion]

Absolutely not!  That was tried back in the 60'-early 70's in a couple places....unsuccessful.   The only viable bird for the west side is the Eastern.

[Gobble]

Some actually make their way over the mountains from the Teanaway flock. My dad has seen a few on the westside of the pass almost down to north bend and I know of several people who have seen them near Issaquah.

personally I would like them to give it another try with some nuisance birds.

[Diehard0123]

Absolutely not!  That was tried back in the 60'-early 70's in a couple places....unsuccessful.   The only viable bird for the west side is the Eastern.

Do you have a link or somthing to back this up, the only reason I ask is because I have never seen anything stating that WDFW has planted mirriams on the west side.

[turkeydancer]

Yes, it was discussed at great lengths.  Habitat is the key and it is very important to note that the Merriams subspecies is a pine forest bird ... although there is some pines on this side of the Cascades, it is limited to a  few scattered stands (we are predominately fir here). They would not do well!   

Easterns are the best choice (Rios were also considered and would actually be a better choice than Merriams ... but this is a very touchy, emotional and political subject with many turkey hunters).

You can find a history of turkey plants in Washington by reading the states 10 year Wild Turkey Management Plan available on the WDFW site --- or you can ask Wac who was there for a lot of them and is the most knowledgeable person I know on Wa St turkeys and  probably has the info you requested at his finger tips (I have never known him to lead anyone astray, and I have to wonder why you would doubt what he said - was it because it wasn't the answer you wanted to hear - LOL). 

[turkeydancer]

Just to add, the WDFW is the hold up for turkey transplants ... their 10 year plan is to only allow plants in NW Washington ... the NWTf proposed 3 sites, but the state said 1 only in the Darrington area ... however at the last meeting before it was to happen, the local organic farmers protested and WDFW folded (ie- the pansys don't want to have to deal with any complaints).    So at this point in time, no transplants whatsoever ....

[fishunt247]

I have also heard of a few people seeing birds from the top of Snoqualmie down to North Bend, but I think these birds are an anomoly. Technically, Skamania county is the westside, right? And there are merriams there. But aside from that, it is eastern country.

[turkeydancer]

For the purposes of turkey hunting, the state considers the Klickitat area as if it was a part of Eastern Wa. and they classify the subspecies of birds by the county of kill (ie - if you kill a bird in Skamania, it is a "Merriam" to them no matter what it really was) .... the habitat down there was determined to be basically Merriam habitat and at first is was the best place in the state for turkey hunting ... then the NE corner exploded with birds ...

[fishunt247]

I didn't realize 574, 568, and 572 are considered part of the "Klickitat" area. My bad. Are there easterns in these units? I've hunted and killed Merriams in 574.

[turkeydancer]

Mostly Merriam's, some Eastern's, and ... dare  I say ... some hybrids. But if you read the spring pamphlet, WDFW tells you which county they say has which birds. 

[fishunt247]

They can tell you that because turkeys read maps and adhere strictly to boundaries. They know their place. This is all based on sound WDFW wildlife research. 

[NWTFhunter]

Turkeydancer, Thanks for posting that info about the Organic farmers protesting the release of new birds in the NW corner of the state.  You beat me to it !!

I think its pretty chicken *censored* to let a couple of organic guys tell them what to do.

[Wacenturion]

Absolutely not!  That was tried back in the 60'-early 70's in a couple places....unsuccessful.   The only viable bird for the west side is the Eastern.

Do you have a link or something to back this up, the only reason I ask is because I have never seen anything stating that WDFW has planted Merriam's on the west side.

Don't have the exact dates in front of me, but as TurkeyDancer said, you may find it in WDFW 10 year plan.  However Merriams were experimented with at Scatter Creek and I believe the Port Angeles area in the mid 70's.  There may have been a few other spots on the westside.
If you doubt what I'm saying about Merriams not being suitable for the westside then ask yourself a simple question.  When Merriams first took off in the 60's in Klickitat County and then new blood was brought in the form of much larger numbers of Merriams to revive them during the 80's and 90's.....why did they not expand beyond eastern Skamania County to any large degree.  The answer is the habitat changed significantly, that's why.

[Wacenturion]

I have also heard of a few people seeing birds from the top of Snoqualmie down to North Bend, but I think these birds are an anomoly. Technically, Skamania county is the westside, right? And there are merriams there. But aside from that, it is eastern country.

Fishunt247....agree.  Some so called Merriam's spotted on the westside and touted as doing well are in most cases game farm reared and released birds that are pretty well domesticated and spend time in and around town folks.  A perfect example is up in the La Conner area.

[Wacenturion]

Turkeydancer, Thanks for posting that info about the Organic farmers protesting the release of new birds in the NW corner of the state.  You beat me to it !!

I think its pretty chicken *censored* to let a couple of organic guys tell them what to do.

NWTF...........don't blame the farmers for voicing their concerns.  If Rio's had been released there, you would have had in all likeyhood nuisance problems.

Here's some comments I had on this subject on another forum.....

Ironically Rio Grandes by somebody's logic is the bird for Whatcom.  Because they do well in up to 35 inch precip. in Oregon?  Yeah Whatcom county is in the rain shadow of the Olympics and has areas of 35 inches, but someone better take a look at a precip. map and you'll see that the areas they want these birds to spread into is north/northeast where precip. ranges go way above 35 inches....60-100+.  Want to bet where those Rios are going to end up "IF" successful......yep.....right in that farm and dairy belt with the lowest precip.  An idiot can see this coming.
Bite the bullet and get easterns.....they don't tolerate people and stay in the woods unlike their mooching cousins, Rios and Merriams.  Check the research...very lttle damage from easterns compared to the others.  Better get it right the first time....there won't be a second chance.  My two cents.
Here's a point of reference regarding said release of Rio's.  Remember they historically come from areas with somewhere around 15-30 inches of precipitation...thats pretty close without looking it up....you know Texas, Kansas.

They have done well in Oregon and California in areas up to around 35 inches.  Look at Whatcom County on the link to the precip. map.  You'll see that that 35 inch or less precip. range is essentially west of the Noosack River to Puget Sound.  That area is disected by I-5 with the population centers...i.e. Bellingham etc located within this area.  Now notice the areas they want these birds to take in....east and north of the Noosack.  Do the precip. ranges give any hint of what's going happen if successful?  Yep...they will take up residence in the more open areas to the west with all the dairy cows, farms and people. 

Just wished these biologists would at least have started with the basics of the appropriate subspecies biology....unbelievable. 

Yelp...agree...if and when problems occur, WDFW will take the obvious course of action.....food bank em'.

  http://www.nationalatlas.gov/printable/images/pdf/precip/pageprecip_wa3.pdf
I guess if we are all going to be blunt, then so will I.  This is more of a desire to get birds than a desire to get it right.  I can understand that reasoning as it's frustrating to have available habitat and get left out of the loop when birds were being released elsewhere. However as SD points out, if you get it wrong the powers to be will never ever consider putting birds in Whatcom again.  Fact and you can count on it.

These same people i.e. the biologist who made the comment in the previous post and her staff are the same ones who made it nearly impossible to get easterns up there (Snohomish County) during the 90's.  The only reason....and I'll repeat it again....the only reason that WDFW is going foward with a release up there is because through their statewide planning process they were able to smoke and mirror everyone into buying that line of crap about wait and see everywhere else in the state....but had to throw you guys a scrape...a spoiled one to boot. 

WDFW I'm sure in the back of their minds probably feel that Rio's won't take so if we have to do something to appease NWTF members this is the least offensive to lowest risk to them.  Take a breath and look at whats going on.....more and more liberalization of fall seasons, kill permits to eliminate birds, no releases in Klickitat or Yakima counties etc.  That overabundance of Merriams should be relocated to those areas but.....they aren't, not because of some dumb ass management plan...rather staff in those regions don't want them and thats how they disguised it.  The plan is just a tool to manipulate you guys and every other turkey hunter in the state.  Look at the recent business meeting where you apparently, in their minds gave the the green light to put the two beardless birds in play this fall.  Wake up....you do have some power...use it.

You have WDFW right where you want them...they have approved a release, there are landowner concerns, easterns are available from National this year and foreseeable future.  Landowners get a straight answer and will support the release from lack of nuisance fears, the correct subspecies gets released, Whatcom county ends up with a sustainable turkey population for recrational purposes.  Win win situation.  The other way you're looking at just the opposite...good chance Rios won't make it, potential for obvious nuisance problems, pissed off landowners...never wnat to see any more turkeys.  These are all things that could happen...why risk it?  If the WaNWTF decided easterns you would still have them for this coming year....just an adjustment prior to implementation.  A point of business at the summer meeting perhaps......     
There a big difference in marketing this release to concerned landowners when you can absolutely assure them of no nuisance problems with easterns vs. the likelyhood of problems with Rio's.  Completely eliminates the concern and gains support from that base.  It all in how you deal with those folks.
Just saw a piece in the local paper reprinted from the Bellingham Newspaper......the planned introduction into Whatcom county is dead.  Due to overwhelming responses opposed to the release the WDFW has decided against it.

Too bad this thing was so ill conceived.  Could have been a continuation of the few Easterns that did get released in Snoh. county years ago. 

Did notice the Biologist mentioned in the article that the 5 mile radius that they expected the birds to expand into did take in a small portion where farms exist.  Five mile radius of expansion....that's about the dumbest thing I ever heard.  What did WDFW plan on doing ...putting out those electronic invisible fences that you use to keep the dog in the yard.  These people don't even understand basic turkey biology, let alone population recruitment and expansion.

Unbelievable to say the least.......

As Paul Harvey would have said...."Now you know the rest of the story"