Post by: Molon5labe on September 19, 2018, 08:08:01 AM
Anyways...I just find it a bit sad and thought some other people would like to know about the situation. Ill leave the contact info for the Canadian officials below if you get the urge to do something.
Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development
Minister: Honourable Doug Donaldson
Mail: Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development
PO Box 9049 Stn Prov Govt
Victoria, BC V8W 9E2
Email: FLNR.Minister@gov.bc.ca
Assistant Deputy Minister: Tom Ethier
Mail: Assistant Deputy Minister, Resource Stewardship Division
P.O. Box 9352 Stn Prov Govt
Victoria BC, V8W 9M1
Email: Tom.Ethier@gov.bc.ca
Executive Director, Provincial Caribou Recovery Program: Paul Rasmussen
Mail: Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development
1902 Theatre Rd.
Cranbrook BC, V1C 7G1
Email: Paul.Rasmussen@gov.bc.ca
Ministry of Environment and Climate Change Strategy
Minister: Honourable George Heyman
Minister of Environment and Climate Change Strategy
PO Box 9047 Stn Prov Gov
Victoria, BC V8W 9E2
Email: ENV.Minister@gov.bc.ca
Assistant Deputy Minister: Jennifer McGuire
Mail: Environmental Sustainability and Strategic Policy Division
PO Box 9339 Stn Prov Govt
Victoria BC, V8W 9M1
Email: Jennifer.Mcguire@gov.bc.ca
Post by: CedarPants on September 19, 2018, 08:12:15 AM
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on September 19, 2018, 08:14:31 AM
Post by: Hoythunter on September 19, 2018, 08:48:18 AM
a guy hardly (figuratively speaking) has access to his own public land. I’m speaking from N Idaho experience than anything else, I don’t know first-hand about any impact on WA areas.
Post by: X-Force on September 19, 2018, 08:50:57 AM
I believe Bart may be a member of the forum.
He is
@WAcoyotehunter
Caribou are in a sad state.
Post by: meatwhack on September 19, 2018, 05:15:18 PM
Post by: dwils233 on September 19, 2018, 05:24:29 PM
I think the areas in NE Washington and North Idaho are on the very southern fringe of these caribou’s normal range which I believe had a significant impact as to why they didn’t thrive.
Actually even about 100 years ago that herd was still healthy enough that Teddy Roosevelt went on a hunt out of Priest Lake for them and I believe numbered in the 50-70 range as recently as the 80's. Loss of the old growth forest played a huge double-whammy role in the decline, first their food source was dependent on it, and then they cleared out areas from logging allowed moose and whitetail to move up the mountain and the predators followed behind them finally able to bridge up to the old growth subalpine area where the caribou exist
WAcoyotehunter is the guy with the most knowledge on the subject though so I stand to be corrected if he says so
Post by: dwils233 on September 19, 2018, 05:30:53 PM
Perhaps now the feds will open back up some of that country to snowmobiling and other outdoor activities that has been shut down over the years to save their beloved Caribou herd. Sorry but the adverse economic impact it’s had on various communities that rely on winter sports has been huge over the years. Between the off road recreation areas that has been closed due to Grizzly rehabilition and saving said herd
a guy hardly (figuratively speaking) has access to his own public land. I’m speaking from N Idaho experience than anything else, I don’t know first-hand about any impact on WA areas.
yeah thank god we finally extirpated a native species so we can scoot around the mountains :rolleyes: I understand and respect that people want to travel on snow machines and that there are economic factors too, but come on. This is a failure on our part- as conservationist, citizens, and people who think nature has a place in our increasingly civilized world. There are plenty of places to ride in NE WA and N ID, and if we want more it shouldn't be because a species stood in our way- we don't need to celebrate these losses.
Post by: idaho guy on September 19, 2018, 05:50:03 PM
I think the areas in NE Washington and North Idaho are on the very southern fringe of these caribou’s normal range which I believe had a significant impact as to why they didn’t thrive.
Actually even about 100 years ago that herd was still healthy enough that Teddy Roosevelt went on a hunt out of Priest Lake for them and I believe numbered in the 50-70 range as recently as the 80's. Loss of the old growth forest played a huge double-whammy role in the decline, first their food source was dependent on it, and then they cleared out areas from logging allowed moose and whitetail to move up the mountain and the predators followed behind them finally able to bridge up to the old growth subalpine area where the caribou exist
WAcoyotehunter is the guy with the most knowledge on the subject though so I stand to be corrected if he says so
fyi- Teddy Roosevelt did not hunt caribou in Idaho he went to what is now sandpoint to take the wildhorse trail to Kooteny lake where he hunted caribou in CANADA! I wish we could have native caribou but Idaho was definitely on the fringe of their habitat and we ended up having a few around due to migration. The enviromentalists used the caribou to push their typical agenda of locking down the forest to protect old growth forests. Same playbook they used with the spotted owl. If you want to see how succesfull that was, look up the population trends of the spotted owl next summer when you cant go outside and breath because of all the forest fires. Again caribou herds in Idaho and eastern wa would be amazing but the work needs to be done in Canada where they live FULL time. The work is killing wolves not locking up North Idaho forests from use and proper management.
Post by: Hoythunter on September 19, 2018, 08:33:17 PM
Perhaps now the feds will open back up some of that country to snowmobiling and other outdoor activities that has been shut down over the years to save their beloved Caribou herd. Sorry but the adverse economic impact it’s had on various communities that rely on winter sports has been huge over the years. Between the off road recreation areas that has been closed due to Grizzly rehabilition and saving said herd
a guy hardly (figuratively speaking) has access to his own public land. I’m speaking from N Idaho experience than anything else, I don’t know first-hand about any impact on WA areas.
yeah thank god we finally extirpated a native species so we can scoot around the mountains :rolleyes: I understand and respect that people want to travel on snow machines and that there are economic factors too, but come on. This is a failure on our part- as conservationist, citizens, and people who think nature has a place in our increasingly civilized world. There are plenty of places to ride in NE WA and N ID, and if we want more it shouldn't be because a species stood in our way- we don't need to celebrate these losses.
How educated are you about the numbers of Caribou in the panhandle? I’m willing to bet I’ve spent more time in their “habitat” than most. I’m fairly well connected to the business owners and residents of that area. That said, I can’t think of anyone that’s ever seen one of these ghosts. Check that, even a track. I’m with you and most when it comes to protecting a species and doing what we can as conservationist to protect said herd and support reviving efforts. That said, sorry, the efforts over the past 15 years have done more harm than good in my opinion. Real people, real lives have been adversely impacted in efforts trying to protect. The West side of Priest Lake use to be a Winter destination for hundreds, if not thousands of riders each year. The place is now a ghost town come Jan/Feb, resulting in major economic challenges for business owners and many others.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on September 20, 2018, 09:50:28 AM
I have seen them there.Perhaps now the feds will open back up some of that country to snowmobiling and other outdoor activities that has been shut down over the years to save their beloved Caribou herd. Sorry but the adverse economic impact it’s had on various communities that rely on winter sports has been huge over the years. Between the off road recreation areas that has been closed due to Grizzly rehabilition and saving said herd
a guy hardly (figuratively speaking) has access to his own public land. I’m speaking from N Idaho experience than anything else, I don’t know first-hand about any impact on WA areas.
yeah thank god we finally extirpated a native species so we can scoot around the mountains :rolleyes: I understand and respect that people want to travel on snow machines and that there are economic factors too, but come on. This is a failure on our part- as conservationist, citizens, and people who think nature has a place in our increasingly civilized world. There are plenty of places to ride in NE WA and N ID, and if we want more it shouldn't be because a species stood in our way- we don't need to celebrate these losses.
How educated are you about the numbers of Caribou in the panhandle? I’m willing to bet I’ve spent more time in their “habitat” than most. I’m fairly well connected to the business owners and residents of that area. That said, I can’t think of anyone that’s ever seen one of these ghosts. Check that, even a track. I’m with you and most when it comes to protecting a species and doing what we can as conservationist to protect said herd and support reviving efforts. That said, sorry, the efforts over the past 15 years have done more harm than good in my opinion. Real people, real lives have been adversely impacted in efforts trying to protect. The West side of Priest Lake use to be a Winter destination for hundreds, if not thousands of riders each year. The place is now a ghost town come Jan/Feb, resulting in major economic challenges for business owners and many others.
I also spend ~40-50 winter days a year at Priest Lake, mostly North and West, and see the snowmobile/snowbike traffic. There are literally thousands of miles of trail, road, and play areas available to over snow travel. You're overplaying the implications of the injunction.
How much do you suppose the 2008 economic downturn impacted those businesses? A room a the only hotel in Nordman is ~$125 a night, a new sled is 5-8k, fuel is down from nearly $4.00 per gallon....yep, the handful of closed roads must be the problem.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on September 20, 2018, 09:53:37 AM
Look up the Klockmann Diary and read his report about caribou in the US portion of the Selkirks. They hunted them to feed the miners at Continental, and the loggers throughout the region. Caribou lived year round on Molybdenite Ridge and around Sullivan Lake. They were absolutely part of an established population within the US portion of their range. It was the southern extent of the range, but well within the US.I think the areas in NE Washington and North Idaho are on the very southern fringe of these caribou’s normal range which I believe had a significant impact as to why they didn’t thrive.
Actually even about 100 years ago that herd was still healthy enough that Teddy Roosevelt went on a hunt out of Priest Lake for them and I believe numbered in the 50-70 range as recently as the 80's. Loss of the old growth forest played a huge double-whammy role in the decline, first their food source was dependent on it, and then they cleared out areas from logging allowed moose and whitetail to move up the mountain and the predators followed behind them finally able to bridge up to the old growth subalpine area where the caribou exist
WAcoyotehunter is the guy with the most knowledge on the subject though so I stand to be corrected if he says so
fyi- Teddy Roosevelt did not hunt caribou in Idaho he went to what is now sandpoint to take the wildhorse trail to Kooteny lake where he hunted caribou in CANADA! I wish we could have native caribou but Idaho was definitely on the fringe of their habitat and we ended up having a few around due to migration. The enviromentalists used the caribou to push their typical agenda of locking down the forest to protect old growth forests. Same playbook they used with the spotted owl. If you want to see how succesfull that was, look up the population trends of the spotted owl next summer when you cant go outside and breath because of all the forest fires. Again caribou herds in Idaho and eastern wa would be amazing but the work needs to be done in Canada where they live FULL time. The work is killing wolves not locking up North Idaho forests from use and proper management.
Post by: trophyhunt on September 20, 2018, 10:08:12 AM
Post by: birddogdad on September 20, 2018, 10:12:57 AM
I wish WDFW was even 1/4 as focused on saving these animals as they are on 'saving' wolves. It's a disgrace, honestly.
wdfw is currently involved in a wolf food transplant effort from the Olympics to Cascades taking up their efforts.... :bash:
Post by: idaho guy on September 20, 2018, 12:47:35 PM
Look up the Klockmann Diary and read his report about caribou in the US portion of the Selkirks. They hunted them to feed the miners at Continental, and the loggers throughout the region. Caribou lived year round on Molybdenite Ridge and around Sullivan Lake. They were absolutely part of an established population within the US portion of their range. It was the southern extent of the range, but well within the US.I think the areas in NE Washington and North Idaho are on the very southern fringe of these caribou’s normal range which I believe had a significant impact as to why they didn’t thrive.
Actually even about 100 years ago that herd was still healthy enough that Teddy Roosevelt went on a hunt out of Priest Lake for them and I believe numbered in the 50-70 range as recently as the 80's. Loss of the old growth forest played a huge double-whammy role in the decline, first their food source was dependent on it, and then they cleared out areas from logging allowed moose and whitetail to move up the mountain and the predators followed behind them finally able to bridge up to the old growth subalpine area where the caribou exist
WAcoyotehunter is the guy with the most knowledge on the subject though so I stand to be corrected if he says so
fyi- Teddy Roosevelt did not hunt caribou in Idaho he went to what is now sandpoint to take the wildhorse trail to Kooteny lake where he hunted caribou in CANADA! I wish we could have native caribou but Idaho was definitely on the fringe of their habitat and we ended up having a few around due to migration. The enviromentalists used the caribou to push their typical agenda of locking down the forest to protect old growth forests. Same playbook they used with the spotted owl. If you want to see how succesfull that was, look up the population trends of the spotted owl next summer when you cant go outside and breath because of all the forest fires. Again caribou herds in Idaho and eastern wa would be amazing but the work needs to be done in Canada where they live FULL time. The work is killing wolves not locking up North Idaho forests from use and proper management.
Ol I will check that diary out sounds interesting but its still a myth that he came to Idaho too actually hunt caribou he came THROUGH Idaho to hunt them across the border in Canada. I am not saying he didn't shoot some in Idaho and I will check that out but I am tired of people always saying he came to Idaho to hunt caribou that was not the plan they had, they were going to kootenay lake to set up hunting camp there. I hope you can do something to create a caribou herd but it seems like once everyone started talking about it we had a few stragglers not a herd of any sort. It make me nervouse about the intentions of some when they discover a crisis and start talking about old growth forest etc etc. I am not talking about your efforts what you and others are doing is awesome I just hope its not in vain. I can also see some enviro groups using the caribou as a sledgehammer just to close down more forests. I asked mitch friedman how he felt about his anti logging anti use policies and he said fantastic they saved the spotted owl. I don't think so and if you look at the results it just led to a lot of mismanagement and forest fires. The spotted owl population plummeted after all that. You know a lot more about the population dynamics of all this I just know what I see happen as in results. Most of the hardcore environmentalist policies I think have had terrible results for what they are supposed to be saving. I know you are in the woods most days but many of these people are not ever in the woods unless its some nature hike vacation from the big city. Rant over :chuckle: Anyways, the Teddy caribou hunt Is just a pet peeve carry on the good work.
Post by: Hoythunter on September 20, 2018, 01:05:54 PM
I have seen them there.Perhaps now the feds will open back up some of that country to snowmobiling and other outdoor activities that has been shut down over the years to save their beloved Caribou herd. Sorry but the adverse economic impact it’s had on various communities that rely on winter sports has been huge over the years. Between the off road recreation areas that has been closed due to Grizzly rehabilition and saving said herd
a guy hardly (figuratively speaking) has access to his own public land. I’m speaking from N Idaho experience than anything else, I don’t know first-hand about any impact on WA areas.
yeah thank god we finally extirpated a native species so we can scoot around the mountains :rolleyes: I understand and respect that people want to travel on snow machines and that there are economic factors too, but come on. This is a failure on our part- as conservationist, citizens, and people who think nature has a place in our increasingly civilized world. There are plenty of places to ride in NE WA and N ID, and if we want more it shouldn't be because a species stood in our way- we don't need to celebrate these losses.
How educated are you about the numbers of Caribou in the panhandle? I’m willing to bet I’ve spent more time in their “habitat” than most. I’m fairly well connected to the business owners and residents of that area. That said, I can’t think of anyone that’s ever seen one of these ghosts. Check that, even a track. I’m with you and most when it comes to protecting a species and doing what we can as conservationist to protect said herd and support reviving efforts. That said, sorry, the efforts over the past 15 years have done more harm than good in my opinion. Real people, real lives have been adversely impacted in efforts trying to protect. The West side of Priest Lake use to be a Winter destination for hundreds, if not thousands of riders each year. The place is now a ghost town come Jan/Feb, resulting in major economic challenges for business owners and many others.
I also spend ~40-50 winter days a year at Priest Lake, mostly North and West, and see the snowmobile/snowbike traffic. There are literally thousands of miles of trail, road, and play areas available to over snow travel. You're overplaying the implications of the injunction.
How much do you suppose the 2008 economic downturn impacted those businesses? A room a the only hotel in Nordman is ~$125 a night, a new sled is 5-8k, fuel is down from nearly $4.00 per gallon....yep, the handful of closed roads must be the problem.
I’m sure you’ve seen them. If I studied them, wolves, or whatever else I’d sure hope to see them as well. Trust me, the recession is well in the rear view mirror for the people who afford to recreate in that area. It’s no wonder why places are closing up for Winter months and it’s surely not because of a recession that kept riders home a decade ago. I trust your knowledge in your field of expertise, same with my knowledge in the economic / financial world. I live there for over half the year and spend as much time as possible in these areas. Gods country at its finest. I’ll agree to disagree on this one, I’m not one to throw stones when someone is working passionately for a cause that all of us have great interest in.
Post by: teanawayslayer on September 20, 2018, 02:18:02 PM
I wish WDFW was even 1/4 as focused on saving these animals as they are on 'saving' wolves. It's a disgrace, honestly.isn't that the truth
Post by: buglebrush on September 20, 2018, 03:01:59 PM
Post by: meatwhack on September 20, 2018, 04:42:16 PM
Post by: andrew_in_idaho on September 21, 2018, 12:00:31 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: jackelope on September 21, 2018, 01:42:09 PM
Perhaps now the feds will open back up some of that country to snowmobiling and other outdoor activities that has been shut down over the years to save their beloved Caribou herd. Sorry but the adverse economic impact it’s had on various communities that rely on winter sports has been huge over the years. Between the off road recreation areas that has been closed due to Grizzly rehabilition and saving said herd
a guy hardly (figuratively speaking) has access to his own public land. I’m speaking from N Idaho experience than anything else, I don’t know first-hand about any impact on WA areas.
yeah thank god we finally extirpated a native species so we can scoot around the mountains :rolleyes: I understand and respect that people want to travel on snow machines and that there are economic factors too, but come on. This is a failure on our part- as conservationist, citizens, and people who think nature has a place in our increasingly civilized world. There are plenty of places to ride in NE WA and N ID, and if we want more it shouldn't be because a species stood in our way- we don't need to celebrate these losses.
How educated are you about the numbers of Caribou in the panhandle? I’m willing to bet I’ve spent more time in their “habitat” than most. I’m fairly well connected to the business owners and residents of that area. That said, I can’t think of anyone that’s ever seen one of these ghosts. Check that, even a track. I’m with you and most when it comes to protecting a species and doing what we can as conservationist to protect said herd and support reviving efforts. That said, sorry, the efforts over the past 15 years have done more harm than good in my opinion. Real people, real lives have been adversely impacted in efforts trying to protect. The West side of Priest Lake use to be a Winter destination for hundreds, if not thousands of riders each year. The place is now a ghost town come Jan/Feb, resulting in major economic challenges for business owners and many others.
Careful now. Some folks from Idaho will tell you businesses don’t rely on tourism dollars there.
Post by: jackelope on September 21, 2018, 01:45:01 PM
I wish WDFW was even 1/4 as focused on saving these animals as they are on 'saving' wolves. It's a disgrace, honestly.
wdfw is currently involved in a wolf food transplant effort from the Olympics to Cascades taking up their efforts.... :bash:
A couple flaws in your statement.
1-It’s a federal operation. Sure wdfw is helping, but it’s a federal project.
2-in General, mountain goats don’t make good wolf food. The wolves can’t catch them.
Post by: KFhunter on September 22, 2018, 11:33:54 AM
Perhaps now the feds will open back up some of that country to snowmobiling and other outdoor activities that has been shut down over the years to save their beloved Caribou herd. Sorry but the adverse economic impact it’s had on various communities that rely on winter sports has been huge over the years. Between the off road recreation areas that has been closed due to Grizzly rehabilition and saving said herd
a guy hardly (figuratively speaking) has access to his own public land. I’m speaking from N Idaho experience than anything else, I don’t know first-hand about any impact on WA areas.
yeah thank god we finally extirpated a native species so we can scoot around the mountains :rolleyes: I understand and respect that people want to travel on snow machines and that there are economic factors too, but come on. This is a failure on our part- as conservationist, citizens, and people who think nature has a place in our increasingly civilized world. There are plenty of places to ride in NE WA and N ID, and if we want more it shouldn't be because a species stood in our way- we don't need to celebrate these losses.
How educated are you about the numbers of Caribou in the panhandle? I’m willing to bet I’ve spent more time in their “habitat” than most. I’m fairly well connected to the business owners and residents of that area. That said, I can’t think of anyone that’s ever seen one of these ghosts. Check that, even a track. I’m with you and most when it comes to protecting a species and doing what we can as conservationist to protect said herd and support reviving efforts. That said, sorry, the efforts over the past 15 years have done more harm than good in my opinion. Real people, real lives have been adversely impacted in efforts trying to protect. The West side of Priest Lake use to be a Winter destination for hundreds, if not thousands of riders each year. The place is now a ghost town come Jan/Feb, resulting in major economic challenges for business owners and many others.
I've seen them, in Canada where I used to ride snowmobile but is now off limits. They like to get on the pass and block traffic licking road salt off the highway.
Caribou like the deep dark old growth timber with mossy stuff dangling off the tree branches, I know a lot of you all don't ride snowmobiles but riding in that old growth timber isn't much fun.
The only reason snowmobiles were locked out is because they make trails down logging roads that lead to the fun stuff in the alpine and open logged areas (where Caribou aren't), BUT wolves loooove to pad down packed snowmobile trails trolling for moose and incidentally could come across caribou through some of these areas. Without the packed trails the theory is the wolves would stay down lower...hrm I doubt this, the snow sets up and they chase the moose right to caribou habitat with or without snowmobile trails, but I can attest that wolves are successful in taking moose off snowmobile trails and literally pave the trail in wolf scat. It's amazing the amount of wolf crap on a snowmobile trail through moose country.
WA/ID have always been at the very fringe of their habitat, much like Lynx and Wolverine...but we suffer the consequences of trying to establish them anyways.
EDIT Since fladdery is so awesome at protecting cattle from wolves I suggest we line snowmobile trails with fladdery when going through sections of old growth timber to keep the wolves off the trails and out of caribou territory. :rolleyes:
Post by: KFhunter on September 22, 2018, 11:36:02 AM
I wish WDFW was even 1/4 as focused on saving these animals as they are on 'saving' wolves. It's a disgrace, honestly.
wdfw is currently involved in a wolf food transplant effort from the Olympics to Cascades taking up their efforts.... :bash:
A couple flaws in your statement.
1-It’s a federal operation. Sure wdfw is helping, but it’s a federal project.
2-in General, mountain goats don’t make good wolf food. The wolves can’t catch them.
Cougar are the mountain goats nemesis, along with mule deer now holding tight to the rocks in wolf areas.
Post by: jackelope on September 22, 2018, 12:48:12 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 22, 2018, 12:58:11 PM
Post by: KFhunter on September 22, 2018, 03:08:08 PM
Canada is actually doing quite a bit including reducing moose numbers (and wolves) and I thought I read about high fencing them at one time to keep them safe.
Post by: CAMPMEAT on September 22, 2018, 03:26:09 PM
Post by: Utah on September 23, 2018, 06:43:59 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 24, 2018, 05:59:44 AM
meh, the Caribou are in Canada. When the herd was a little bigger they came to WA only occasionally and ID a little more but that's over with the herd so small.
Canada is actually doing quite a bit including reducing moose numbers (and wolves) and I thought I read about high fencing them at one time to keep them safe.
They shouldn't need high fencing to survive. :twocents: