Post by: Cervus on November 06, 2018, 09:21:18 AM
https://wdfw.wa.gov/news/nov0118a/
Post by: pmm on November 09, 2018, 03:10:52 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on November 09, 2018, 05:07:10 AM
Post by: JakeLand on November 09, 2018, 05:35:25 AM
Oh ya and bring back hound hunting, foothold and snare trapping and baiting to actually have a tool to control predators ( especially coyotes)
Post by: Skyvalhunter on November 09, 2018, 05:44:04 AM
Post by: Mr Mykiss on November 09, 2018, 05:47:58 AM
Post by: skagitsteel on November 09, 2018, 06:23:14 AM
Trust me I would love a late hunt here every year BUT the deer population couldn’t handle it. Late quality tag is fine with me especially if I eventually draw one with that being said and guys will be mad but what would be better is like a elk tag pick east or west and that will help the populations especially blacktail with it having a longer general season !
Oh ya and bring back hound hunting, foothold and snare trapping and baiting to actually have a tool to control predators ( especially coyotes)
100 % agreed. As much as I would enjoy a late rifle the units i hunt would not Support it. We do really need the hounds especially for the cats, they are out of control in a couple of these units. Trail cams can be very eye opening. Wonder if we could atleast get a special draw implemented for hounds. Bear baiting would be nice but we should atleast have a statewide general spring season in addition to fall. It’s amazing the coincidence on cam with lack of fawns in certain areas that have lots of bears.
Post by: sagerat on November 09, 2018, 06:54:24 AM
Trust me I would love a late hunt here every year BUT the deer population couldn’t handle it. Late quality tag is fine with me especially if I eventually draw one with that being said and guys will be mad but what would be better is like a elk tag pick east or west and that will help the populations especially blacktail with it having a longer general season !
Oh ya and bring back hound hunting, foothold and snare trapping and baiting to actually have a tool to control predators ( especially coyotes)
100 % agreed. As much as I would enjoy a late rifle the units i hunt would not Support it. We do really need the hounds especially for the cats, they are out of control in a couple of these units. Trail cams can be very eye opening. Wonder if we could atleast get a special draw implemented for hounds. Bear baiting would be nice but we should atleast have a statewide general spring season in addition to fall. It’s amazing the coincidence on cam with lack of fawns in certain areas that have lots of bears.
I agree with everything here. I’d also like to see timber harvest come back to the NF, I know that’s unlikely. At least we get to hunt until Halloween, for now...
Post by: Tradhunter on November 09, 2018, 08:15:57 AM
Post by: Mr Mykiss on November 09, 2018, 08:47:45 AM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on November 09, 2018, 08:55:52 AM
I agree with what has been said as well. i just think the whole game department needs to be restructured on how they manage or see whats actually important. It should flat out be that critters come first, then the people, then politics. Seems pretty well backwards in my opinion of how things are ran and have been ran for years now. Though I may be wrong as I actually try to stay out of the whole politics game because it just makes me have a bad day haha. You know its kind of funny (well not really) and I know its dependent on the Bio but I have talked with quite a few of them about animals and it just amazes me how their eyes can light up and they get all excited about some little critter such as a wolverine or fisher that I've seen but when you talk about any game animal such as elk or deer...they just are mono-tone and don't seem to care much. What is that?
Because deer, and elk are so plentiful. :rolleyes:
Post by: fishnfur on November 09, 2018, 09:57:53 AM
Trust me I would love a late hunt here every year BUT the deer population couldn’t handle it. Late quality tag is fine with me especially if I eventually draw one with that being said and guys will be mad but what would be better is like a elk tag pick east or west and that will help the populations especially blacktail with it having a longer general season !
Oh ya and bring back hound hunting, foothold and snare trapping and baiting to actually have a tool to control predators ( especially coyotes)
100 % agreed. As much as I would enjoy a late rifle the units i hunt would not Support it. We do really need the hounds especially for the cats, they are out of control in a couple of these units. Trail cams can be very eye opening. Wonder if we could atleast get a special draw implemented for hounds. Bear baiting would be nice but we should atleast have a statewide general spring season in addition to fall. It’s amazing the coincidence on cam with lack of fawns in certain areas that have lots of bears.
I agree with everything here. I’d also like to see timber harvest come back to the NF, I know that’s unlikely. At least we get to hunt until Halloween, for now...
I don't think any of this would get much argument from hunters here or anywhere. Unfortunately, WDFW is an instrument of the State, and the people of the state. They voted against many of these issues, which is why we can't bait bears or hunt cats with hounds. I believe it would require a state-wide referendum vote to repeal these laws.
Post by: Mr Mykiss on November 09, 2018, 10:43:45 AM
Post by: JakeLand on November 09, 2018, 10:48:52 AM
Whatever. It’s a joke. I’ll keep giving WA my yearly hour of deer hunting and take the majority of my money elsewhere.come to the one in Issaqua! I’m going
Post by: Cervus on November 09, 2018, 11:03:39 AM
At the WDFW 2018/2020 Public Season Setting meeting I attended in Wenatchee there were 20 WDFW staff and bios, but only 3 members of the public showed up. That meeting was well advertised, and yet pretty much no one bothered to attend.
At that meeting I asked why WDFW was managing NCW mule deer for "Opportunity" not "Quality" hunting, especially given the recent challenges face by NCW mule deer herds. Their answer was that WDFW works for the public, and that what they hear from the public is that we value the opportunity to hunt mule deer every year, more than the chance to hunt less frequently but be more successful. Personally, I disagree with this strategy, but I bring it up as an example of the kind of issue that WDFW needs our feedback on.
Whatever our opinions are on deer management, WDFW needs to hear them. And the public meetings are one way to do that. Hopefully this post enables some folks attend their local meetings, and we can all keep each other informed of future comment opportunities.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on November 09, 2018, 11:35:51 AM
Post by: no.cen.wa on November 09, 2018, 12:15:38 PM
Post by: singleshot12 on November 09, 2018, 12:26:59 PM
Post by: bigmacc on November 09, 2018, 01:26:58 PM
There in lies the problem!! When they ask hunters to comment on the seasons proposals VERY few people comment. I know this because I have read the comments and lack of comments. WDFW takes this as hunters not caring. Well it shows that its not a big deal to them and do as they want. I know they know me as I send them lots of feed back. So complain all you want you have no one to blame but yourselves.
:tup:....100% agree with this. I know I,ve probably told this story before but here it is again. Like it or not my Dad was a big advocate of gating roads in the Methow, back in the 70,s(especially after the North Cascade Pass opened), he hounded and hounded the then Game Department to start thinking about gating some of the roads especially ones that criss crossed or cut through staging areas and known migration routes. My dad basically made a pest out of himself and I,m pretty sure Game Department personnel from the Methow to Olympia knew him by his 1st name :chuckle:. I remember many visits by multiple Game dept. folks to our camp, sometimes 4 or 5 of them total that consisted of everyone from Game wardens to Bios to Regional guys. They would pick my dad and grandfathers brains for hours around the fire about staging areas and migration routes that my family knew of going back to 1917. These meetings went on for 3 or 4 years and I remember my dad and myself going on many drives with Game folks and first hand showing them areas where there should be gates and spur roads that should be burmed to cut down on vehicle access during peak times. Back them the seasons were longer and later and more people were discovering the Methow because of the pass opening and my dad could see the writing on the wall that with the influx of all the new hunters along with motorhomes, trailers etc., and the all the roads, some of which were smack dab in the middle of migration routes that the stage was being set for full scale slaughters, especially if weather hit. After many meetings, drives(some of which took place at midnight depending on moon and deer movement) and even a petition that my dad started that had hundreds of signatures and that he hand delivered he finally caught their attention. One of the big turning points(IMO) was a story that my dad told them of a camp we came across in the north part of the valley that consisted of 3 or 4 motor homes all parked in a semi circle with (I think it was) at least 4 or 5 BIG bucks hanging on the ridge pole, we stopped in and talked with them for awhile and found out it was their first time hunting the Methow(the pass had just opened the previous year)and they couldn't believe all the deer that were around. It was the 1st week in November if I remember right and there was about 4-5 inches of snow on the ground(from a storm that hit about a week prior) and temps were in the teens, deer were literally pouring in through various migration routes and the one these guys(along with many other camps) was right in the middle of one of the best routes in the valley....Period! I remember them saying that it was like "catching fish in a barrel" and that all of them were shot right from where we all were sitting, right around their campfire, in fact one fella said something to the effect that they all could have been killed with spears they were so close. That story along with many others, countless miles of driving and hiking with Game Department personnel and my dads wisdom with family history going back to 1917 accompanied by hundreds of pictures of our family camps convinced them that there could be some truth to this guys predictions. The moral. is, things won't get done by just bitching to ourselves around the campfire for one or two weeks out of the year, sometimes things need to be taken up a notch and told to the right people and yes sometimes it needs to be told over and over again. When those gates started going up and roads starting getting burmed it was a very sober mood actually for my dad and great grandpa(who was 80 at the time and was in hunting camp until his last year at 86) that it had come to this, in fact I remember my dad saying at the time that "more hurdles were in front of this herd besides just gating roads" and boy was he right. My dad had a history and a passion for this herd that was passed on to him and then he passed it to the next generation and now it is being passed onto my brother and I,s kids and grandkids, to this day letters are written, conversations are had and stories are told and hopefully the "right people" hear them. My dad continued to walk into all his old spots that were gated well into his 80,s, yes it was tough for him in his later years but in his mind it wasn't about him, it was about his beloved Methow mule Deer and he wasn't afraid to stand up for them even if it meant ruffling the feathers of his fellow hunter...RIP pardner and "keep your powder dry, you'll need it for that big fella".
Post by: bigmacc on November 09, 2018, 01:43:41 PM
As I said, I know there are folks that don't agree with the gating of roads during hunting season(trust me I,ve heard a lot of belly aching from guys over there) and the thing is most are fellas in there 20,s and 30,s. I tell them that a lot of the roads that they see gated with the "migration" sign on them were hand picked from my dad and great grandpa, then I tell them why they fought for it and how they both hunted their old spots by having to walk and hike for miles/hours to get to their old haunts and they both did it well into their 80,s. The looks I get are priceless :chuckle:.
Post by: bigmacc on November 09, 2018, 03:16:23 PM
I plan to attend the meeting in Montesano on the 13th, my concern is NCW mule deer, I was born in Twisp and need to let them know my thoughts.
:tup:, perfect.
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on November 09, 2018, 04:25:38 PM
Whatever. It’s a joke. I’ll keep giving WA my yearly hour of deer hunting and take the majority of my money elsewhere.:yeah: :chuckle:
Post by: bigmacc on November 09, 2018, 05:11:35 PM
Whatever. It’s a joke. I’ll keep giving WA my yearly hour of deer hunting and take the majority of my money elsewhere.:yeah: :chuckle:
I agree "its a joke" and I,m one of the biggest advocates to get a separate Game Department back in power, a department that has the best interest of our big game herds, hunters and sportsman as top priorities, not the way it is now as the WDFW that has to many irons in the fire, everything from wolves, to frogs and lizards to other animals that directly and negatively affect our big Game animals, all gods creatures need their advocates and I can respect that but putting them all under the same umbrella of the same agency is not in any of their best interests, it just creates conflict and generates its own political firestorms because of the many special interest groups that are involved. In the meantime its what we got, it is what it is and like my great grandpa said and what my dad said "its not about me, its about the herd and they need someone to stand up for them". So even though it is a "joke" they will still hear from me....just my opinion and :twocents:
Post by: Rob Allen on November 09, 2018, 08:29:48 PM
Post by: no.cen.wa on November 10, 2018, 09:22:39 AM
It's constant pressure that takes a toll on the herd, I can take less days of hunting.
Post by: pmm on November 11, 2018, 01:48:57 PM
Post by: JakeLand on November 11, 2018, 03:29:44 PM
What’s thriving are bear, cougar,coyotes and bobcats . Whatever the bio says is BS a couple of us spend more time up in there in one year then most due in 20-30 years . My trapline runs close to 150 miles round trip and every year there are more coyotes in areas they weren’t previously and there’s no effective way to manage coyotes other then foot holds and snares . Now bear and cougar we have a effective way to control them but it’s illegal now and they did away with our spring bear tag opportunity here . Bobcats are easy to trap in a cage, now the whole problem is this state wants to manage the ungulets but want zero effective management of predators and that lies the problem in this state ! Alls I can say is shoot every coyote that you have a opportunity on year round !
Post by: NOCK NOCK on November 11, 2018, 05:34:21 PM
I believe we need to shorten ALL seasons in NCW for mule deer, The general season, quality buck,buck, anterless, second deer, youth, over 65, disabled, high buck, archery, muzzy, and on and on! the deer are hunted for more days than I can count. :twocents:
It's constant pressure that takes a toll on the herd, I can take less days of hunting.
X2
Post by: Mr Mykiss on November 12, 2018, 05:54:27 AM
All east side seasons become draws.
Don’t give out thousands of mule deer for tags.
I’ll give as many bios and managers my opinion as I can muster.
At least I get a honest answer when they say “We manage for opportunity not quality”
Given that fact...you can see why a guy might have such a negative opinion on the deal.
Post by: sagerat on November 12, 2018, 08:12:20 AM
Shorten all seasons.
All east side seasons become draws.
Don’t give out thousands of mule deer for tags.
I’ll give as many bios and managers my opinion as I can muster.
At least I get a honest answer when they say “We manage for opportunity not quality”
Given that fact...you can see why a guy might have such a negative opinion on the deal.
I don’t support shortening all seasons. I also don’t support managing for quality when all tribal hunters continue to get “governor tags” year after year.
Post by: bigmacc on November 15, 2018, 05:07:01 PM
Shorten all seasons.
All east side seasons become draws.
Don’t give out thousands of mule deer for tags.
I’ll give as many bios and managers my opinion as I can muster.
At least I get a honest answer when they say “We manage for opportunity not quality”
Given that fact...you can see why a guy might have such a negative opinion on the deal.
Good deal, ya got to keep hounding them(check my post from 1:26pm on Nov.9th) my dad never gave up when it came to the Methow herd, lots of people said it would do no good, they said that decisions were made by "experts" not by guys like him etc. etc. etc. He told them of his history there, he showed them 100,s and 100,s of pictures to prove points, he told them stories and showed journals, whatever it took and eventually he earned their respect. As I said it went on for years and soon a lot of Game Department folks from all different levels would be at our camp, sometimes 4 or 5 at a time for hours asking many questions and at least listening. Persistence and respect :tup:
Post by: hunter399 on November 15, 2018, 05:14:31 PM
Shorten all seasons.How about all deer hunting in the entire state become permit,or make wet side seasons the same as east side so we are not getting pounded by wet side hunters.
All east side seasons become draws.
Don’t give out thousands of mule deer for tags.
I’ll give as many bios and managers my opinion as I can muster.
At least I get a honest answer when they say “We manage for opportunity not quality”
Given that fact...you can see why a guy might have such a negative opinion on the deal.
Post by: JakeLand on November 15, 2018, 06:22:51 PM
even if the seasons are the same you will still get wetsiders going over for Muley and whitetail make it a choice east or west because the blacktail get hammered by everyone from east and west after the east side general closes .Shorten all seasons.How about all deer hunting in the entire state become permit,or make wet side seasons the same as east side so we are not getting pounded by wet side hunters.
All east side seasons become draws.
Don’t give out thousands of mule deer for tags.
I’ll give as many bios and managers my opinion as I can muster.
At least I get a honest answer when they say “We manage for opportunity not quality”
Given that fact...you can see why a guy might have such a negative opinion on the deal.
Post by: bigmacc on November 16, 2018, 02:29:43 PM
even if the seasons are the same you will still get wetsiders going over for Muley and whitetail make it a choice east or west because the blacktail get hammered by everyone from east and west after the east side general closes .Shorten all seasons.How about all deer hunting in the entire state become permit,or make wet side seasons the same as east side so we are not getting pounded by wet side hunters.
All east side seasons become draws.
Don’t give out thousands of mule deer for tags.
I’ll give as many bios and managers my opinion as I can muster.
At least I get a honest answer when they say “We manage for opportunity not quality”
Given that fact...you can see why a guy might have such a negative opinion on the deal.
Heck why not take it to another level, instead of east west tags you not only choose your weapon(bow, muzzy or modern) but you also pick a species for deer, you either buy a blacktail tag, a white tail tag or a mule deer tag, which ever you purchase is only what you can hunt that year. Another spin on that would be making it draw only in the Methow and Entiat units, maybe 100-200 permits per unit :dunno: and eliminating the quality late hunts in these units BUT having the season for these two areas be open for 10 days and always ending on Oct. 31st. And then again there is huntinphools idea of the odd-even system in the Methow and Entiat :dunno:
Post by: huntnphool on November 16, 2018, 02:54:34 PM
At the WDFW 2018/2020 Public Season Setting meeting I attended in Wenatchee there were 20 WDFW staff and bios, but only 3 members of the public showed up. That meeting was well advertised, and yet pretty much no one bothered to attend.
At that meeting I asked why WDFW was managing NCW mule deer for "Opportunity" not "Quality" hunting, especially given the recent challenges face by NCW mule deer herds. Their answer was that WDFW works for the public, and that what they hear from the public is that we value the opportunity to hunt mule deer every year, more than the chance to hunt less frequently but be more successful.
Wait a second, how/where do they "hear from the public" if only 3 people were there?
Post by: Cervus on November 16, 2018, 09:33:28 PM
I think it's safe to say they are not getting their input from the HW forums though ;) which is all the more reason we need to reach out, speak up, and share what we want to see in for hunting and game management priorities.
Post by: huntnphool on November 17, 2018, 12:25:15 AM
Huntnphool, that's a good question, and one I didn't ask at the meeting. I'd guess WDFW gets input from public meetings, written public comment periods, and people calling/writing to the Department? Also informal conversations b/t the public and biologists and managers?
I think it's safe to say they are not getting their input from the HW forums though ;) which is all the more reason we need to reach out, speak up, and share what we want to see in for hunting and game management priorities.
Point being, they are getting the same opinion you gave in the meeting, as they are getting in the other fashions you just mentioned...public meetings, written comments, calling etc, yet the only opinion that matters is "opportunity over quality"?
Seems to me they are CHOOSING which option they want to listen too.
Post by: Mr Mykiss on November 21, 2018, 10:45:34 AM
Tired of hearing it?
Too bad. Get used to it.
Post by: hunter399 on November 21, 2018, 11:00:37 AM
OPPORTUNITY OVER QUALITYNot much opportunity,When there is no animals to hunt.
Tired of hearing it?
Too bad. Get used to it.
General seasons are crap.Do to more opportunity.
I see a lot of ,as they lay deer pics being taken out of state just on this forum alone.Why?
Post by: Sandberm on November 21, 2018, 11:32:13 AM
All does except one 1x1 buck all by himself. How is that little guy gonna get all those women pregnant?
Post by: Mr Mykiss on November 22, 2018, 06:43:06 AM
Apparently the answer to the problem was to issue 350 second deer tags during general rifle.
From your recent experience it sound like they shoulda issued more, like 1000? 1500?
Perhaps mule deer in eastern Washington should be on a year round shoot-on-sight program??
Post by: huntnnw on November 22, 2018, 06:51:51 AM
Post by: Ridgeratt on November 22, 2018, 07:55:58 AM
it blows my mind that this state with so little habitat for mule deer and so many hunters is still open to general season hunts! There are states with 100X the habitat and far less hunters that are managed by a draw system. The second whitetail doe tags in NE WA need to be gone period. Issue only to private or what ID does good for private or within a mile of private land.
You left out eliminating the Multi-season permits as well. Along with the muzzle doe tags in eastern Washington. This year the WDFW optioned them to any whitetail.
:bash: :bash:
Post by: hunter399 on November 22, 2018, 09:28:08 AM
Post by: huntnphool on November 22, 2018, 08:53:41 PM
Maybe we should all email the new director with some ideas ,that all of can agree on.
And those ideas are what exactly?
Post by: no.cen.wa on November 22, 2018, 10:18:06 PM
But, maybe some will, :dunno:
Post by: hunter399 on November 22, 2018, 10:26:57 PM
Thats the problem there is none.100 different hunters screaming different management plans and we just end up in the same boat year after year with nothing really being done.Maybe we should all email the new director with some ideas ,that all of can agree on.
And those ideas are what exactly?
I'm not gonna post any ideas or mangement plan cause I'm sure some of you may disagree.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on November 22, 2018, 10:28:17 PM
Post by: hunter399 on November 22, 2018, 10:33:36 PM
Choose a species for deer tag. Mule deer, or Whitetail, or blacktail.I would agree with this idea
Or choose species or east or west.But species would be best.
Post by: hunter399 on November 22, 2018, 11:08:35 PM
You wanna hear my ideas ,ok.
Doe permits gone .
Choose a species,or east or west
Opening weekend is youth and disabled,65 over only for doe,
Then everybody goes to any buck.
A even-odd system in some gmu that your only allowed to hunt certain days .Without reducing the number of days in the field total.
4pt min back in some gmu.whitetail
4pt min for mule deer.
I know nobody likes 4pt min,but after a year or two as buck numbers rise you can do every other year 4pt min,then 3pt or even 2pt then back to 4pt. Keeping buck/doe ratios good for oppertunity.or keep it 4pt min ,and do spike whitetail hunts for youth.
3pt min for mule deer youth.
Multi tags gone for some gmu .
Clearcutting in eastern wa done,no cover means no deer out in daytime these timber company's are not replanting fast enough or at all .15 seed trees need to be left per acre.
More enforcement of gated areas.These areas set aside for wildlife are getting hit hard or harder then areas that are open to drive in.
I'm sure I can come up with more.
Post by: luckyman on November 23, 2018, 05:21:10 AM
Choose a species for deer tag. Mule deer, or Whitetail, or blacktail.I would agree with this idea
Or choose species or east or west.But species would be best.
This would suck big time unless they offered one of each tag. I want a blacktail and a whitetail tag.
Post by: ellensburgpo on November 23, 2018, 05:59:33 AM
Choose a species for deer tag. Mule deer, or Whitetail, or blacktail.I would agree with this idea
Or choose species or east or west.But species would be best.
:yeah:
Post by: Jonathan_S on November 23, 2018, 06:16:25 AM
Choose a species for deer tag. Mule deer, or Whitetail, or blacktail.I would agree with this idea
Or choose species or east or west.But species would be best.
This would suck big time unless they offered one of each tag. I want a blacktail and a whitetail tag.
You’re saying you want the opportunity to buy two OTC tags?
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on November 23, 2018, 07:06:28 AM
The issue we Washington hunters face is the WDFW is not going to be willing to give up the main revenue stream. I would like a draw system, but that would mean revenue loss. Cut multi permits ( I am for BTW) revenue loss. No more OTC tags being sold, revenue loss. I know a lot of HUNTERS that would not mind it as there could be lots of options for those who wanted to play every year and options for those who preferred to wait and hunt a more "quality" hunt. But we look at the side of the coin that says"no impact to my wallet, only impact to my season". The department sees it as a huge budget cut. As an unknown amount of tags now become potential permit applications. You could possibly sell them on the idea if we made permit application fees match the current cost of a tag, BUT there is the rub. It flies against wisdom and common sense for someone to pay more and get less.
Post by: luckyman on November 23, 2018, 07:07:46 AM
Absolutely. If they want to separate the tag into 3 species. I hunt whitetail or blacktail depending on early or late.Choose a species for deer tag. Mule deer, or Whitetail, or blacktail.I would agree with this idea
Or choose species or east or west.But species would be best.
This would suck big time unless they offered one of each tag. I want a blacktail and a whitetail tag.
You’re saying you want the opportunity to buy two OTC tags?
To restrict tags is not the answer here. There is an answer and we know what that is. Letting a deer walk won't bring the numbers back it only increases predators survival. 30 years ago it was common to seen 80-100 blacktail a day during the season. Ten years after the ban on hounds and baiting two a day was the norm and seeing a cougar or bear while deer hunting became somewhat common. If no one was to buy a deer tags from here on out it wouldn't bring the numbers back. My last years whitetail cameras had 4 different deer and 11 different predators on it. gmu 101
Post by: Bobvernon2 on November 23, 2018, 07:20:02 AM
Absolutely. If they want to separate the tag into 3 species. I hunt whitetail or blacktail depending on early or late.Choose a species for deer tag. Mule deer, or Whitetail, or blacktail.I would agree with this idea
Or choose species or east or west.But species would be best.
This would suck big time unless they offered one of each tag. I want a blacktail and a whitetail tag.
You’re saying you want the opportunity to buy two OTC tags?
To restrict tags is not the answer here. There is an answer and we know what that is. Letting a deer walk won't bring the numbers back it only increases predators survival. 30 years ago it was common to seen 80-100 blacktail a day during the season. Ten years after the ban on hounds and baiting two a day was the norm and seeing a cougar or bear while deer hunting became somewhat common. If no one was to buy a deer tags from here on out it wouldn't bring the numbers back. My last years whitetail cameras had 4 different deer and 11 different predators on it. gmu 101
You kill any of those predators? And I assume you're killing two deer a year right now since you're demanding two tags in this hypothetical situation.
Post by: jackknife on November 23, 2018, 07:24:01 AM
Post by: luckyman on November 23, 2018, 08:00:10 AM
Yes I do try to kill predators.Absolutely. If they want to separate the tag into 3 species. I hunt whitetail or blacktail depending on early or late.Choose a species for deer tag. Mule deer, or Whitetail, or blacktail.I would agree with this idea
Or choose species or east or west.But species would be best.
This would suck big time unless they offered one of each tag. I want a blacktail and a whitetail tag.
You’re saying you want the opportunity to buy two OTC tags?
To restrict tags is not the answer here. There is an answer and we know what that is. Letting a deer walk won't bring the numbers back it only increases predators survival. 30 years ago it was common to seen 80-100 blacktail a day during the season. Ten years after the ban on hounds and baiting two a day was the norm and seeing a cougar or bear while deer hunting became somewhat common. If no one was to buy a deer tags from here on out it wouldn't bring the numbers back. My last years whitetail cameras had 4 different deer and 11 different predators on it. gmu 101
You kill any of those predators? And I assume you're killing two deer a year right now since you're demanding two tags in this hypothetical situation.
You are only allowed one deer regardless of what you hunt at the time. There is no guarantee that you will harvest one.
This is why Breaking the tag choice up makes No sense.
Post by: ellensburgpo on November 23, 2018, 09:33:55 AM
Post by: singleshot12 on November 23, 2018, 10:47:55 AM
Unfortunately this is a no win situation until predators are under control.Unless you wait for predators to over-populate and eventually succumb to decease and starvation. But who wants to wait that long?
I think in the natural scheme of things man was meant to hunt with the aid of dogs and trap predators any way he damn well pleased to control them, but that was in the day when things made sense.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on November 23, 2018, 11:09:14 AM
Sure t makes sense, it would reduce pressure on all species. It would end the guys hunting mule deer general and then Whitetail or blacktail later on. You would have to choose. Sure it means you couldn’t hunt the best seasons for them all but that’s kind of the point. :twocents:Yes I do try to kill predators.Absolutely. If they want to separate the tag into 3 species. I hunt whitetail or blacktail depending on early or late.Choose a species for deer tag. Mule deer, or Whitetail, or blacktail.I would agree with this idea
Or choose species or east or west.But species would be best.
This would suck big time unless they offered one of each tag. I want a blacktail and a whitetail tag.
You’re saying you want the opportunity to buy two OTC tags?
To restrict tags is not the answer here. There is an answer and we know what that is. Letting a deer walk won't bring the numbers back it only increases predators survival. 30 years ago it was common to seen 80-100 blacktail a day during the season. Ten years after the ban on hounds and baiting two a day was the norm and seeing a cougar or bear while deer hunting became somewhat common. If no one was to buy a deer tags from here on out it wouldn't bring the numbers back. My last years whitetail cameras had 4 different deer and 11 different predators on it. gmu 101
You kill any of those predators? And I assume you're killing two deer a year right now since you're demanding two tags in this hypothetical situation.
You are only allowed one deer regardless of what you hunt at the time. There is no guarantee that you will harvest one.
This is why Breaking the tag choice up makes No sense.
Post by: go4steelhd on November 23, 2018, 02:05:23 PM
Eliminating multi season
Pick Mule Deer, whitetail, blacktail
Pick only one weapon
Pick only one season (early or late not both)
Pick one unit
This will upset some. But you can see what doing nothing is doing :bash:
Or make everything draw for any weapon
We have to get pressure off the herds or it will continue to decline :dunno:
Post by: Mr Mykiss on November 24, 2018, 07:16:54 AM
If they want to keep everything General we need toAs long as we can still shoot like 10,000 does a year I’m game!!
Eliminating multi season
Pick Mule Deer, whitetail, blacktail
Pick only one weapon
Pick only one season (early or late not both)
Pick one unit
This will upset some. But you can see what doing nothing is doing :bash:
Or make everything draw for any weapon
We have to get pressure off the herds or it will continue to decline :dunno:
Post by: jstone on November 24, 2018, 08:42:13 AM
Swakane is the same. Went up to one of my usual spots every year I see at least 4-5 shooter bucks. Saw about 10 does. And a white Ford Explorer parked back on a closed road. If that won’t piss you off I don’t know what will?
Not sure what the answer is but everyone needs to be on board.
I don’t understand why less hunters and less deer?
Jeff
Post by: jstone on November 24, 2018, 09:08:34 AM
I have been archery hunting for 20 plus years and I am seeing lots more not prepared archery guys out there. :twocents:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on November 24, 2018, 08:05:41 PM
Post by: Bango skank on November 24, 2018, 08:08:57 PM
If they want to keep everything General we need to
Eliminating multi season
Pick Mule Deer, whitetail, blacktail
Pick only one weapon
Pick only one season (early or late not both)
Pick one unit
This will upset some. But you can see what doing nothing is doing :bash:
Or make everything draw for any weapon
We have to get pressure off the herds or it will continue to decline :dunno:
Pick a season is taking things a bit far. If no multi, and you have to choose species, i think its reasonable that i should be able to hunt whitetail in both early and late archery.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on November 24, 2018, 08:19:59 PM
With that being said, the last thing I want to suggest is making hunting in WA a
Post by: KFhunter on November 24, 2018, 08:31:44 PM
I floated the idea of quality points for predators, turn in coyote ears get some special points, get a cougar pelt sealed get even more points etc. The idea is to promote more predator hunting.
We need to focus less on quality bucks and just focus on more bucks, killing predators and protecting does is how you do that.
Post by: Calvin Rayborn on November 24, 2018, 09:53:18 PM
Post by: longtrails on November 26, 2018, 09:26:43 PM
Post by: huntnphool on November 26, 2018, 11:24:20 PM
If you are one of those geniuses, how about you come up with a solution to share, rather than simply spewing the obvious!
Most are willing to discuss options, but not you. You hold steadfast in your belief that predator control must be first, yet you fail to mention how to get past the voters that have tied our hands.
Lets here your solutions all you predator issue experts....and let's have realistic solutions please, WDFW trapping and relocating is NOT realistic.
And longtrails, this is not in response to your post. ;)
Post by: KFhunter on November 26, 2018, 11:36:39 PM
Over the years there have been several threads similar to this brought up, the overwhelming majority agreeing that the numbers are declining, the hunting is going to hell and people looking for solutions, including limiting hunting.....and then there are those that want to to look the genius and chime in with the obvious....."nothing will change until we address the predators."
If you are one of those geniuses, how about you come up with a solution to share, rather than simply spewing the obvious!
Most are willing to discuss options, but not you. You hold steadfast in your belief that predator control must be first, yet you fail to mention how to get past the voters that have tied our hands.
Lets here your solutions all you predator issue experts....and let's have realistic solutions please, WDFW trapping and relocating is NOT realistic.
And longtrails, this is not in response to your post. ;)
https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,134715.0.html
Post by: huntnphool on November 26, 2018, 11:45:02 PM
Over the years there have been several threads similar to this brought up, the overwhelming majority agreeing that the numbers are declining, the hunting is going to hell and people looking for solutions, including limiting hunting.....and then there are those that want to to look the genius and chime in with the obvious....."nothing will change until we address the predators."
If you are one of those geniuses, how about you come up with a solution to share, rather than simply spewing the obvious!
Most are willing to discuss options, but not you. You hold steadfast in your belief that predator control must be first, yet you fail to mention how to get past the voters that have tied our hands.
Lets here your solutions all you predator issue experts....and let's have realistic solutions please, WDFW trapping and relocating is NOT realistic.
And longtrails, this is not in response to your post. ;)
https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,134715.0.html
I remember reading that, good start to the conversation but what about the lost revenue for the state in tags and apps?.........not going to happen.
Post by: KFhunter on November 26, 2018, 11:48:44 PM
Nothing would interfere with any previous voter initiatives, wouldn't require new laws and is within the scope of WDFW. It would require a public input period I think.
\
Someone turning in PIP's (Predator Incentive Points) would have earned that buck by taking predators off the landscape.
I don't see how it would interfere with existing draws, raffles and other money makers :dunno:
Post by: Humptulips on November 27, 2018, 12:45:41 AM
Over the years there have been several threads similar to this brought up, the overwhelming majority agreeing that the numbers are declining, the hunting is going to hell and people looking for solutions, including limiting hunting.....and then there are those that want to to look the genius and chime in with the obvious....."nothing will change until we address the predators."
If you are one of those geniuses, how about you come up with a solution to share, rather than simply spewing the obvious!
Most are willing to discuss options, but not you. You hold steadfast in your belief that predator control must be first, yet you fail to mention how to get past the voters that have tied our hands.
Lets here your solutions all you predator issue experts....and let's have realistic solutions please, WDFW trapping and relocating is NOT realistic.
And longtrails, this is not in response to your post. ;)
My idea is to make trapping a legal method of take for cougar. We could catch them if we were turned loose. All it takes is for the F&W Commission to give cougar dual big game/furbearer status. Last year 40% of PMAs never met quota so there is room within the quota system for more harvest. The quotas need to go or be increased but that will only help if we have the tools to harvest them.
I've been pushing this for at least 10 years. I think DFW is getting more used to the idea but they are still resistant. I have been told it will be on the table in the new cougar management plan. Not sure I believe much they say though.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on November 27, 2018, 05:17:20 AM
Post by: ribka on November 27, 2018, 07:20:33 AM
Mitch Friedman at conservation NW would never allow trapping hound hunting etc and his radical anti hunting group has gained a good deal of political clout now at WDFW and has fought any means, especially trapping, to help control exploding predator populations. ( look at the insane amount of money wasted on that woman wolf moderator lol) I have have asked him and his spokesman that comes on here if they would consider this and has always been no. CNW has helped author and introduce numerous legislation to shutdown cat and wolf hunting and was always seem to have apologists on here that claim CNW is a good organization. Shame large corporations like CNW and not sportsmen are the only ones now with influence at WDFW now. Every year hunting and fishing opportunities diminish in this state while user fees go up.
If you disagree would love hear otherwise.
Over the years there have been several threads similar to this brought up, the overwhelming majority agreeing that the numbers are declining, the hunting is going to hell and people looking for solutions, including limiting hunting.....and then there are those that want to to look the genius and chime in with the obvious....."nothing will change until we address the predators."
If you are one of those geniuses, how about you come up with a solution to share, rather than simply spewing the obvious!
Most are willing to discuss options, but not you. You hold steadfast in your belief that predator control must be first, yet you fail to mention how to get past the voters that have tied our hands.
Lets here your solutions all you predator issue experts....and let's have realistic solutions please, WDFW trapping and relocating is NOT realistic.
And longtrails, this is not in response to your post. ;)
My idea is to make trapping a legal method of take for cougar. We could catch them if we were turned loose. All it takes is for the F&W Commission to give cougar dual big game/furbearer status. Last year 40% of PMAs never met quota so there is room within the quota system for more harvest. The quotas need to go or be increased but that will only help if we have the tools to harvest them.
I've been pushing this for at least 10 years. I think DFW is getting more used to the idea but they are still resistant. I have been told it will be on the table in the new cougar management plan. Not sure I believe much they say though.
Post by: KFhunter on November 27, 2018, 03:55:24 PM
Wasting your time unfortunately ....
If you disagree would love hear otherwise.
nope, no disagreement. Well known fact that WDFW and CNW are spooning like a couple of young lovers.
Post by: Humptulips on November 27, 2018, 05:55:34 PM
Post by: Tinmaniac on November 27, 2018, 07:51:40 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on November 27, 2018, 08:25:37 PM
Post by: syoungs on November 27, 2018, 09:20:12 PM
Buy a region a deer tag, can only hunt region a etc.
The predator points thing could work the same, taken 10 coyotes a bear and a cougar out of region A the past 4 years, that's x points.
I'm all for seeing the state going to some other method to help control the amount of pressure placed on animals, including better habitat management, which we may be on the road to soon with all the fires lately.
Post by: huntnphool on November 27, 2018, 09:25:30 PM
Part of the problem with game management has to do with access.With big timber companies charging for access,the places that are open to those that don't buy keys are getting pounded hard.I am sure the guys that live and hunt in E.Wa have noticed the increase in hunters since the reduced access to hundreds of thousands of acres here in W.Wa.
With all due respect Tin, is the blacktail situation anywhere close to the mule deer situation?
Post by: Tinmaniac on November 27, 2018, 09:49:15 PM
Post by: Humptulips on November 27, 2018, 09:51:33 PM
WorsePart of the problem with game management has to do with access.With big timber companies charging for access,the places that are open to those that don't buy keys are getting pounded hard.I am sure the guys that live and hunt in E.Wa have noticed the increase in hunters since the reduced access to hundreds of thousands of acres here in W.Wa.
With all due respect Tin, is the blacktail situation anywhere close to the mule deer situation?
Post by: huntnphool on November 27, 2018, 09:52:54 PM
My point is that many of us westerners would never head East if the gates and hundreds of thousands of acres were still available to hunt as they were 5 years ago.As for game in now gated areas I got my elk and deer in there every year for 25 years.
I get it, but the diminishing mule deer numbers has nothing to do with that. ;)
Post by: Tinmaniac on November 27, 2018, 10:14:19 PM
Post by: huntnnw on November 27, 2018, 10:20:08 PM
Permit-only draws for Muleys WTH?exactly what needs to happen with mule deer in this state
Post by: huntnphool on November 27, 2018, 10:43:28 PM
So if say 1000 guys that would hunt blacktail choose to hunt mule deer because of lack of access that will have no impact on mule deer?Thats like saying a lake that had 10 guys fishing a lake would have the same amount of fish left after 100 hit it for 5 years.
Correct.
Post by: huntnphool on November 27, 2018, 10:50:41 PM
Permit-only draws for Muleys WTH?exactly what needs to happen with mule deer in this state
+1, cant wait to bring up the threads of the past when that happens, and those that were unwilling to discuss options are bitching and complaining!
Post by: idahohuntr on November 28, 2018, 01:59:58 AM
:yeah:Permit-only draws for Muleys WTH?exactly what needs to happen with mule deer in this state
Post by: JakeLand on November 28, 2018, 05:51:18 AM
So if say 1000 guys that would hunt blacktail choose to hunt mule deer because of lack of access that will have no impact on mule deer?Thats like saying a lake that had 10 guys fishing a lake would have the same amount of fish left after 100 hit it for 5 years.OR after general east side season is over and a 1,000 more hunters with tags come over west and shoot any legal buck the last week ( and best time ) doesn’t damage the blacktail population then add every predator on top . When I’m deer hunting I shoot every coyote I see regardless if it messes my day up and fill my bear tags. And trap a double handful of cats every winter so many people bitch about predator control but will not shoot a dog cause they’re deer or elk hunting and don’t wanna screw up their hunt the best thing you can do is be pro active on controlling predator populations
Post by: Zuus on November 28, 2018, 06:12:25 AM
The game dept does not manage deer (or elk) they manage people. Just charging more doesn't enhance the populations.
On a recent trip to SA, I was lucky enough to visit a farm that raises gemsbok. They then sell the young animals to area farmers. That is managing animals.
I know this could be done with deer and elk.
Post by: hunterofelk on November 28, 2018, 06:25:45 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on November 28, 2018, 07:04:26 AM
I didn't read through all the pages, so if this was mentioned, I apologize.Managing hunters...seasons, numbers, weapons, areas, etc is a MAJOR part of managing wildlife. Especially when hunter harvest is a primary factor in wildlife mortality..
The game dept does not manage deer (or elk) they manage people. Just charging more doesn't enhance the populations.
On a recent trip to SA, I was lucky enough to visit a farm that raises gemsbok. They then sell the young animals to area farmers. That is managing animals.
I know this could be done with deer and elk.
Post by: Cervus on November 28, 2018, 03:36:29 PM
Post by: KFhunter on November 28, 2018, 04:20:08 PM
Especially when hunter harvest is a primary factor in wildlife mortality..
:chuckle:
back that one up will ya, I'd like to see some science behind that notion
Post by: Tinmaniac on November 28, 2018, 05:16:57 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on November 28, 2018, 05:20:39 PM
You need proof that hunter harvest is not a factor in wildlife mortality?you left out "primary" in your statement there. :tup:
Post by: Tinmaniac on November 28, 2018, 05:37:22 PM
Post by: trapp01 on November 28, 2018, 05:39:43 PM
:yeah:Permit-only draws for Muleys WTH?exactly what needs to happen with mule deer in this state
Catch 22. Less opportunity means less hunters. Lower hunter recruitment doesn't ensure the future of the sport.
How about open up the millions of acres of land that's locked up on the Westside and relieve some pressure on the mule herds.
Post by: bobcat on November 28, 2018, 05:43:08 PM
Post by: Tinmaniac on November 28, 2018, 05:50:06 PM
With 26,537 deer being killed by hunters in 2017, I'd have to say hunting is a primary factor. And last year was a bad year. In 2015, the harvest was 37,963.The voice of reason right there!I really didn't think anyone would actually need an explanation.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on November 28, 2018, 05:51:40 PM
With 26,537 deer being killed by hunters in 2017, I'd have to say hunting is a primary factor. And last year was a bad year. In 2015, the harvest was 37,963.And WDFW says there are around 2,000 cougars (low estimate) and cougars have been recorded taking 1 deer a week (low estimate--some take closer to 1 deer a day). Those low estimates would be 100,000 deer a year just for cougars. Add in bear, bobcat, coyotes and now wolves.
Post by: KFhunter on November 28, 2018, 05:54:59 PM
https://wdfw.wa.gov/living/deer.html
"Mortality and Longevity
Cougars, bears, coyotes, and domestic dogs prey on adult deer; young fawns fall victim to these species as well as to eagles and bobcats.
Hunting, vehicles, and diseases all take their toll on deer. In many deer populations, hunting dampens the effects of other mortality factors; as hunting mortality decreases, other forms of mortality tend to increase, and vice versa.
Few deer live longer than ten years, and most live for no more than five."
So we need to hunt more deer so that other forms of mortality are reduced :IBCOOL:
Post by: idahohuntr on November 28, 2018, 06:13:00 PM
It is surprising...but if you suggest that Cougars and wolves are not the source of all lifes problems it's just too much for some people. :chuckle:With 26,537 deer being killed by hunters in 2017, I'd have to say hunting is a primary factor. And last year was a bad year. In 2015, the harvest was 37,963.The voice of reason right there!I really didn't think anyone would actually need an explanation.
Post by: hunter399 on November 28, 2018, 06:16:52 PM
Here's an interesting thought, this taken from WDFW living with wildlife Deer
https://wdfw.wa.gov/living/deer.html
"Mortality and Longevity
Cougars, bears, coyotes, and domestic dogs prey on adult deer; young fawns fall victim to these species as well as to eagles and bobcats.
Hunting, vehicles, and diseases all take their toll on deer. In many deer populations, hunting dampens the effects of other mortality factors; as hunting mortality decreases, other forms of mortality tend to increase, and vice versa.
Few deer live longer than ten years, and most live for no more than five."
So we need to hunt more deer so that other forms of mortality are reduced :IBCOOL:
You can't believe what WDFW TELL ya. :dunno: :chuckle:
They would say anything to make money.💰
With all there biologist,personal,ect,that are experts on wildlife it sure doesn't show it.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on November 28, 2018, 07:27:14 PM
I guess if we are getting technical the statement was made "a primary factor"not "the primary factor".
Awesome reply, :tup: :tup:
Post by: Humptulips on November 28, 2018, 07:45:57 PM
Hunters harvest even if it were close to predation does not equal the same thing.
Post by: KFhunter on November 28, 2018, 07:56:12 PM
With 26,537 deer being killed by hunters in 2017, I'd have to say hunting is a primary factor. And last year was a bad year. In 2015, the harvest was 37,963.And WDFW says there are around 2,000 cougars (low estimate) and cougars have been recorded taking 1 deer a week (low estimate--some take closer to 1 deer a day). Those low estimates would be 100,000 deer a year just for cougars. Add in bear, bobcat, coyotes and now wolves.
bear, bobcat, wolves, coyotes, eagles, cougar etc don't discriminate either. They'll take buck or doe and any fawn they can find.
No, hunters are not a primary cause of mortality, perhaps in some areas where black tail are taken regurarly I'll give them that, but in the rest of the rural areas of the state it's not even close by a long shot.
Hunters primarily take bucks, as long as the doe's are getting covered (they are) then hunters aren't a primary concern. The only thing one could argue is by a hunter taking a buck that might have fed a cougar for a week that cougar instead had to take a doe, but that's reaching a bit.
WDFW and other anti-hunting "conservationists" would LOVE for everyone to believe that hunters are the primary concern, it makes it easier to regulate the sport, easier to control the people, easier to extort more money.....but all it's doing is making more predators to fill the void. (The same goes for Salmon, recreational fishing is but a pin drop compared to other losses)
This statement by WDFW is true: In many deer populations, hunting dampens the effects of other mortality factors; as hunting mortality decreases, other forms of mortality tend to increase, and vice versa.
Post by: KFhunter on November 28, 2018, 07:57:46 PM
One thing not mentioned is which deer are being harvested. The vast majority of deer harvested in WA are bucks. Because bucks will breed multiple does even with less bucks then does, does do not go barren. Therefore hunters for the most part do not have the same hit on the breeding population that cougars do.
Hunters harvest even if it were close to predation does not equal the same thing.
:yeah:
didn't see your post for typing mine :chuckle:
Post by: idahohuntr on November 28, 2018, 08:28:01 PM
Just do a google search of cause specific deer mortality studies. The first one that comes up shows 57% of Male mule deer mortality in central oregon is the result of hunter harvest...keep looking and you will see similar results across many parts of the country.With 26,537 deer being killed by hunters in 2017, I'd have to say hunting is a primary factor. And last year was a bad year. In 2015, the harvest was 37,963.And WDFW says there are around 2,000 cougars (low estimate) and cougars have been recorded taking 1 deer a week (low estimate--some take closer to 1 deer a day). Those low estimates would be 100,000 deer a year just for cougars. Add in bear, bobcat, coyotes and now wolves.
bear, bobcat, wolves, coyotes, eagles, cougar etc don't discriminate either. They'll take buck or doe and any fawn they can find.
No, hunters are not a primary cause of mortality, perhaps in some areas where black tail are taken regurarly I'll give them that, but in the rest of the rural areas of the state it's not even close by a long shot.
Hunters primarily take bucks, as long as the doe's are getting covered (they are) then hunters aren't a primary concern. The only thing one could argue is by a hunter taking a buck that might have fed a cougar for a week that cougar instead had to take a doe, but that's reaching a bit.
WDFW and other anti-hunting "conservationists" would LOVE for everyone to believe that hunters are the primary concern, it makes it easier to regulate the sport, easier to control the people, easier to extort more money.....but all it's doing is making more predators to fill the void. (The same goes for Salmon, recreational fishing is but a pin drop compared to other losses)
This statement by WDFW is true: In many deer populations, hunting dampens the effects of other mortality factors; as hunting mortality decreases, other forms of mortality tend to increase, and vice versa.
One of my complaints about wa deer management is the lack of quality bucks, particularly mule deer in gen season hunts...even during the rut it's rare to see a 3+ pt deer running with the 50+ does I see regularly.
So are the cougars selectively eating bucks with 3+ points or do you think maybe hunter harvest is playing a significant role? I'll give you a little hint...there is a 3 pt minimum in many of the units I'm describing.
Post by: bobcat on November 28, 2018, 08:36:11 PM
Post by: Hot Lunch on November 28, 2018, 08:39:50 PM
I hunted a unit near Pomeroy two times this year, once in October with my daughter, and then again with my brother during a special permit late hunt. The problem I see there is the buck to doe ratio. We'd see at least 30 to 40 does for every buck we saw, and the bucks were almost all spikes and two points. And I was there during the rut, from November 14th to the 18th. There should have been some mature bucks hanging around with all the does. But there just weren't any. We saw one 3 point buck and hundreds of does. I'm sure the bad winter two years ago has something to do with it. And all the coyotes certainly don't help. Mule deer need to be permit only statewide, in my opinion, at least temporarily, until things improve.
Unlimited tag OTC unit, I see the same stuff when I hunt over there and wee have private property. There is bigger whitetails that survive but like you said mature deer are basically non-existent. If they went to limited tags you would hunt maybe every 10 years. I have also heard there is a solid mtn lion population in the lower country taking out many deer.
Post by: bobcat on November 28, 2018, 08:42:36 PM
I hunted a unit near Pomeroy two times this year, once in October with my daughter, and then again with my brother during a special permit late hunt. The problem I see there is the buck to doe ratio. We'd see at least 30 to 40 does for every buck we saw, and the bucks were almost all spikes and two points. And I was there during the rut, from November 14th to the 18th. There should have been some mature bucks hanging around with all the does. But there just weren't any. We saw one 3 point buck and hundreds of does. I'm sure the bad winter two years ago has something to do with it. And all the coyotes certainly don't help. Mule deer need to be permit only statewide, in my opinion, at least temporarily, until things improve.
Unlimited tag OTC unit, I see the same stuff when I hunt over there and wee have private property. There is bigger whitetails that survive but like you said mature deer are basically non-existent. If they went to limited tags you would hunt maybe every 10 years. I have also heard there is a solid mtn lion population in the lower country taking out many deer.
Well, I have to question whether the few bucks left can get all those does bred. I doubt it. The buck to doe ratio is seriously out of whack.
Post by: Humptulips on November 28, 2018, 08:59:35 PM
I hunted a unit near Pomeroy two times this year, once in October with my daughter, and then again with my brother during a special permit late hunt. The problem I see there is the buck to doe ratio. We'd see at least 30 to 40 does for every buck we saw, and the bucks were almost all spikes and two points. And I was there during the rut, from November 14th to the 18th. There should have been some mature bucks hanging around with all the does. But there just weren't any. We saw one 3 point buck and hundreds of does. I'm sure the bad winter two years ago has something to do with it. And all the coyotes certainly don't help. Mule deer need to be permit only statewide, in my opinion, at least temporarily, until things improve.
If you do that you will never get rid of it.
So those 30 to 40 does. Let's assume every doe has 2 fawns so that means 10 to 13 mature does and they give birth to 10 to 13 bucks every year. Remember they all have twins. If all singles it works out to 7 to 10 bucks. Not sure how many deer you saw total but in order to keep the 3 point and larger bucks killed off like you think, you would have to kill that many every year. It must be a shooting gallery over there or else you are not seeing them.
I would bet on the latter'
Seeing a lot more does then bucks is the way it has always been and seeing even less 3 point and up is also the way it has always been.
Post by: Humptulips on November 28, 2018, 09:00:37 PM
I hunted a unit near Pomeroy two times this year, once in October with my daughter, and then again with my brother during a special permit late hunt. The problem I see there is the buck to doe ratio. We'd see at least 30 to 40 does for every buck we saw, and the bucks were almost all spikes and two points. And I was there during the rut, from November 14th to the 18th. There should have been some mature bucks hanging around with all the does. But there just weren't any. We saw one 3 point buck and hundreds of does. I'm sure the bad winter two years ago has something to do with it. And all the coyotes certainly don't help. Mule deer need to be permit only statewide, in my opinion, at least temporarily, until things improve.
Unlimited tag OTC unit, I see the same stuff when I hunt over there and wee have private property. There is bigger whitetails that survive but like you said mature deer are basically non-existent. If they went to limited tags you would hunt maybe every 10 years. I have also heard there is a solid mtn lion population in the lower country taking out many deer.
Well, I have to question whether the few bucks left can get all those does bred. I doubt it. The buck to doe ratio is seriously out of whack.
Are you seeing barren does?
Post by: KFhunter on November 28, 2018, 09:04:56 PM
Quote
One of my complaints about wa deer management is the lack of quality bucks, particularly mule deer in gen season hunts...even during the rut it's rare to see a 3+ pt deer running with the 50+ does I see regularly.
So are the cougars selectively eating bucks with 3+ points or do you think maybe hunter harvest is playing a significant role? I'll give you a little hint...there is a 3 pt minimum in many of the units I'm describing.
quantity > quality = more bucks will make more quality bucks, to do that you need to kill more pred....oh shoot here I go again :bash:
fine, permit only mule deer. I've been leaning that way anyways but it's a bandaid to the larger problem no one wants to talk about. The less hunters take = more predators have, the more deer predators have the more they breed, the more they breed the more mouths
shoot, here I go talking about predators again :bash:
Post by: bobcat on November 28, 2018, 09:11:19 PM
Post by: huntnnw on November 28, 2018, 09:21:03 PM
Post by: Humptulips on November 28, 2018, 09:21:56 PM
Perhaps if everyone weren't able to hunt deer every year, they would focus on predators during those years that they didn't draw a deer permit?
I fear that most would just give up hunting maybe in that area but maybe all together.
I know I would. I like the idea of earning points for every predator that you kill. I just don't think that's something the WDFW would ever get behind.
We agree on that!
That's the other thing I noticed in southeast Washington. Coyotes are thick! We'd see them and heard them all the time, everywhere we went. Funny how when I hunt in Wyoming coyotes are a rare sight. I wonder why that is?
Possibly because Wyoming allows trapping and coyotes are actually about the only thing with enough value to trap right now. Add to that Aphis is a coyote killing machine in WY. Denning, aerial shooting, M-44 cyanide guns, traps and snares. Lot of pressure from the livestock industry to kill coyotes in WY.
Post by: KFhunter on November 28, 2018, 09:26:59 PM
no mule deer (bucks) due to way to many hunters on little habitat shooting the first legal buck they see. A 1-3 yr old muley is the dumbest animal in the woods.
Do you know the odds of a mule deer buck even reaching 3 years old? Most are killed before they even loose their spots.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on November 28, 2018, 09:27:38 PM
Perhaps if everyone weren't able to hunt deer every year, they would focus on predators during those years that they didn't draw a deer permit? I know I would. I like the idea of earning points for every predator that you kill. I just don't think that's something the WDFW would ever get behind. That's the other thing I noticed in southeast Washington. Coyotes are thick! We'd see them and hear them all the time, everywhere we went. Funny how when I hunt in Wyoming coyotes are a rare sight. I wonder why that is?I doubt the efforts would be turned toward predators. I think it would encourage even more people to go to Idaho, Montana, etc in the years they couldn't hunt in Washington.
Post by: KFhunter on November 28, 2018, 09:29:52 PM
Post by: KFhunter on November 28, 2018, 09:40:35 PM
Just do a google search of cause specific deer mortality studies. The first one that comes up shows 57% of Male mule deer mortality in central oregon is the result of hunter harvest...keep looking and you will see similar results across many parts of the country.
One of my complaints about wa deer management is the lack of quality bucks, particularly mule deer in gen season hunts...even during the rut it's rare to see a 3+ pt deer running with the 50+ does I see regularly.
So are the cougars selectively eating bucks with 3+ points or do you think maybe hunter harvest is playing a significant role? I'll give you a little hint...there is a 3 pt minimum in many of the units I'm describing.
Those studies are what got us into this mess :bash:
no, cougar's aren't specifically picking out 3pt bucks to eat, they like yearlings more than anything. In some areas bucks might tend to spend more time up higher in cat areas and get hit, but mainly they tend to be more nocturnal so aren't seen as much by hunters. Every area is different in the way cats take deer, the only thing I'll say is cats like them young, deer and elk both.
If you want to inventory deer in a specific area you need to run baited camera's. In my hayfield I only see doe's, but at night on my camera it's nearly 50% buck to doe ratio if I leave off the fawns.
Until I see evidence of doe's not getting bred I'm not jumping on the buck/doe ratio as being a factor in herd decline.
Post by: huntnnw on November 28, 2018, 09:42:14 PM
no mule deer (bucks) due to way to many hunters on little habitat shooting the first legal buck they see. A 1-3 yr old muley is the dumbest animal in the woods.
Do you know the odds of a mule deer buck even reaching 3 years old? Most are killed before they even loose their spots.
pretty much none here, unless on huge tracts of private or the high country where not many venture.
I will not blame predators for the lack of game, getting rid of them will help, but we still had tons of predators a long time ago and had really good herds of deer. Its way to much pressure, hunters have gotten way more efficient at taking animals, from inline muzzys, to the long range craze and super fast accurate bows. Its a combo of alot of things contributing to lack of deer, predators,hunters and winters.
Post by: KFhunter on November 28, 2018, 09:43:15 PM
I hunted a unit near Pomeroy two times this year, once in October with my daughter, and then again with my brother during a special permit late hunt. The problem I see there is the buck to doe ratio. We'd see at least 30 to 40 does for every buck we saw, and the bucks were almost all spikes and two points. And I was there during the rut, from November 14th to the 18th. There should have been some mature bucks hanging around with all the does. But there just weren't any. We saw one 3 point buck and hundreds of does. I'm sure the bad winter two years ago has something to do with it. And all the coyotes certainly don't help. Mule deer need to be permit only statewide, in my opinion, at least temporarily, until things improve.
Unlimited tag OTC unit, I see the same stuff when I hunt over there and wee have private property. There is bigger whitetails that survive but like you said mature deer are basically non-existent. If they went to limited tags you would hunt maybe every 10 years. I have also heard there is a solid mtn lion population in the lower country taking out many deer.
Well, I have to question whether the few bucks left can get all those does bred. I doubt it. The buck to doe ratio is seriously out of whack.
I bet you'd be shocked if you drove around there now with a big spotlight, make sure there's no guns in your vehicle :chuckle:
Post by: idahohuntr on November 28, 2018, 09:56:21 PM
100% agree with huntnnw...kf...I'm thinking you don't leave your little corner of the woods very often...probably don't hunt anywhere else in Wa or out of state?? Not a criticism, but I think the folks you see telling you it's not just predators have a lot of experience hunting many parts of Wa and many other states...i.e., they have a lot more experience to draw on than you when it comes to observations of quality mule deer hunting. In defense of your position...I'm sure there are no greater predator impacts to deer populations in this state than in ne wa.no mule deer (bucks) due to way to many hunters on little habitat shooting the first legal buck they see. A 1-3 yr old muley is the dumbest animal in the woods.
Do you know the odds of a mule deer buck even reaching 3 years old? Most are killed before they even loose their spots.
pretty much none here, unless on huge tracts of private or the high country where not many venture.
I will not blame predators for the lack of game, getting rid of them will help, but we still had tons of predators a long time ago and had really good herds of deer. Its way to much pressure, hunters have gotten way more efficient at taking animals, from inline muzzys, to the long range craze and super fast accurate bows. Its a combo of alot of things contributing to lack of deer, predators,hunters and winters.
Post by: Tinmaniac on November 28, 2018, 10:03:43 PM
Post by: KFhunter on November 28, 2018, 10:26:36 PM
100% agree with huntnnw...kf...I'm thinking you don't leave your little corner of the woods very often...probably don't hunt anywhere else in Wa or out of state?? Not a criticism, but I think the folks you see telling you it's not just predators have a lot of experience hunting many parts of Wa and many other states...i.e., they have a lot more experience to draw on than you when it comes to observations of quality mule deer hunting. In defense of your position...I'm sure there are no greater predator impacts to deer populations in this state than in ne wa.
OK Idahohntr :rolleyes: "I can see the blues from my back yard!" :rolleyes: :chuckle:
Post by: huntnnw on November 28, 2018, 10:27:50 PM
Post by: KFhunter on November 28, 2018, 10:36:20 PM
Of all the western states with mule deer excluding CA we have the highest population of people the fewest acres of habitiat for mule deer and then add in huntable amount of acres for the avg hunter who doesnt have the luxury of hunting private and you are cramming alot of hunters into small areas. Yet its a general free for all with a rifle! absurd its so easy to shoot a dumb 1.5 yr old buck. I hunt outta state alot and seeing the crap this state offers is a joke! hardest part in this state is just filling your tag on any legal mule deer, not due to cause they are smart and great at hiding, because there is no deer. Most here are losing their minds when they see a 2X3 yet you go outta state and hunt and its hard to not run them over in the roads!
We do agree on some things, this from reply #68
"WDFW is all about people control, figuring out clever ways to spread out hunting pressure in an ever closing road system"
We all know the mule are getting hammered, ya hunters are taking a lot of the smaller to midsize bucks, but the does are still getting bred somehow.
Post by: huntnnw on November 28, 2018, 10:49:10 PM
Post by: Humptulips on November 28, 2018, 11:07:11 PM
Lock those areas up tight and charge $300 a key for limited amount of keys and see what happens to the deer populations.
We have already run that experiment and the deer hunting gets worse every year.
It kills me when guys complain about seeing 20, 30, 40 deer in a day and pass up every small buck waiting for a trophy. It's too hard to find a big buck, uh maybe that is the point of it being a trophy.
Try hunting here where you won't see that many deer in an entire season.
Post by: KFhunter on November 28, 2018, 11:08:15 PM
Keep them does protected and they'll make bucks, make enough bucks and the quality will come back.
Post by: huntnnw on November 28, 2018, 11:38:06 PM
Post by: huntnphool on November 28, 2018, 11:38:58 PM
Of all the western states with mule deer excluding CA we have the highest population of people the fewest acres of habitiat for mule deer and then add in huntable amount of acres for the avg hunter who doesnt have the luxury of hunting private and you are cramming alot of hunters into small areas. Yet its a general free for all with a rifle!
You missed the biggest determining factor, WDFW shortening the season to one week, forcing everyone that hunts the eastside to all take the same week off and hunt. This leaves virtually zero escapement for any legal buck in the popular lower units.
Many hate hearing about years past, but the numbers are relevant. We used to hunt the general season through the first week of November, significantly more hunters than today, yet we seldom ran into more than a handful of hunters in a weeks time.
Today, with everyone being forced to leave work and hunt the exact same week, is it any wonder that it's a zoo of orange, with zero young 3 point+ bucks in those units surviving to breed?
Post by: huntnnw on November 28, 2018, 11:47:07 PM
Post by: Humptulips on November 29, 2018, 11:16:37 PM
:yeah: Areas I have hunted that are real S#*& holes in the past couple years I have seen exactly 0 hunters and sit glassing relatively open super steep country and are lucky to turn up a deer! what should be excellent habitat and every draw should hold deer yet they are void of wildlife.
So zero hunters in these holes but still no deer? Maybe it is not the hunters that are to blame for the lack of deer, well, two legged hunters anyway.
Post by: spin05 on November 30, 2018, 01:05:45 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on November 30, 2018, 04:58:36 AM
Post by: Sandberm on November 30, 2018, 07:00:32 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on November 30, 2018, 09:26:52 AM
1. Many areas with fewer deer overall...bad winter 2 years ago would explain some of the precipitous drops in units. I know at least a few areas where the decrease in deer was so sudden (from Fall of 2016 to Fall of 2017) it was clearly a high winter kill. And this was not just in WA...many other states I hunt where the 16/17 winter took a major toll.
2. Some areas there just apparently are not many deer surviving as a result of predators
3. Some areas there are quite a few deer around, just virtually no mature bucks or far fewer mature bucks than the area could support.
And of course it can be a combination of all these factors in some/many areas. So...for WA deer management, protecting/improving winter range and increasing predator harvest could help...but we all know how quickly (or not!) those sort of actions will take.
For the areas where folks are seeing plenty of deer, just no mature bucks - that clearly points to hunter harvest being the cause...unless someone can, with a straight face, explain to me how predators are selectively targeting 3+ point bucks and leaving all the other deer alone. Unlike protecting winter range and removing more predators...the potential solutions to more mature bucks is something that splits hunter opinion pretty sharply. There are a fair number of small bucks killed by a bunch of hunters every year...and if you don't care about buck size, shooting a small 3 point every year means the system is working for you. However, folks that would prefer greater opportunity at more mature bucks are far more willing to go to a permit system or restrict overall harvest so there could be more mature bucks...but I'm not sure we are in the majority and/or if WDFW would entertain an idea that might mean fewer license sales.
So...I guess I don't see a lot of predator or winter habitat actions in the near future...and I don't see the level of support for actions that could improve buck age/size in units that are not struggling as a result of other factors...so I see more of the same and not much chance at change. Anyone else have a more optimistic view? The only bright side I see is that more easy winters will definitely have deer rebounding and I'm seeing a good number of small WT bucks that have me a little more optimistic for WT hunting to really pick up again in the near future in the areas I hunt.
Post by: Dhoey07 on November 30, 2018, 10:19:28 AM
There seems to be at least a few issues folks are consistently saying:If there was a higher than normal winter kill 2 years ago then it would lead to fewer mature deer right now. Low survival rate for fawns two years ago would be 3+ points right now.
1. Many areas with fewer deer overall...bad winter 2 years ago would explain some of the precipitous drops in units. I know at least a few areas where the decrease in deer was so sudden (from Fall of 2016 to Fall of 2017) it was clearly a high winter kill. And this was not just in WA...many other states I hunt where the 16/17 winter took a major toll.
2. Some areas there just apparently are not many deer surviving as a result of predators
3. Some areas there are quite a few deer around, just virtually no mature bucks or far fewer mature bucks than the area could support.
And of course it can be a combination of all these factors in some/many areas. So...for WA deer management, protecting/improving winter range and increasing predator harvest could help...but we all know how quickly (or not!) those sort of actions will take.
For the areas where folks are seeing plenty of deer, just no mature bucks - that clearly points to hunter harvest being the cause...unless
Post by: bigmacc on November 30, 2018, 10:47:57 AM
Post by: KFhunter on November 30, 2018, 11:08:06 AM
There seems to be at least a few issues folks are consistently saying:
1. Many areas with fewer deer overall...bad winter 2 years ago would explain some of the precipitous drops in units. I know at least a few areas where the decrease in deer was so sudden (from Fall of 2016 to Fall of 2017) it was clearly a high winter kill. And this was not just in WA...many other states I hunt where the 16/17 winter took a major toll.
2. Some areas there just apparently are not many deer surviving as a result of predators
3. Some areas there are quite a few deer around, just virtually no mature bucks or far fewer mature bucks than the area could support.
And of course it can be a combination of all these factors in some/many areas. So...for WA deer management, protecting/improving winter range and increasing predator harvest could help...but we all know how quickly (or not!) those sort of actions will take.
For the areas where folks are seeing plenty of deer, just no mature bucks - that clearly points to hunter harvest being the cause...unless someone can, with a straight face, explain to me how predators are selectively targeting 3+ point bucks and leaving all the other deer alone. Unlike protecting winter range and removing more predators...the potential solutions to more mature bucks is something that splits hunter opinion pretty sharply. There are a fair number of small bucks killed by a bunch of hunters every year...and if you don't care about buck size, shooting a small 3 point every year means the system is working for you. However, folks that would prefer greater opportunity at more mature bucks are far more willing to go to a permit system or restrict overall harvest so there could be more mature bucks...but I'm not sure we are in the majority and/or if WDFW would entertain an idea that might mean fewer license sales.
So...I guess I don't see a lot of predator or winter habitat actions in the near future...and I don't see the level of support for actions that could improve buck age/size in units that are not struggling as a result of other factors...so I see more of the same and not much chance at change. Anyone else have a more optimistic view? The only bright side I see is that more easy winters will definitely have deer rebounding and I'm seeing a good number of small WT bucks that have me a little more optimistic for WT hunting to really pick up again in the near future in the areas I hunt.
I don't have a very positive view, we can't do anything about winter kills, my only beef with "winter kills" is proclaiming winter kill got a herd while ignoring contributing factors be it forest fires, predator movement, disease, ticks etc. Almost always with winter kill there's contributing factors, yet when we hear "winter kill" it evokes visions of deep snow and starving animals when often times it's just cold, wet and full of predators or diseases or lack of browse due to fires. I would support feeding programs to mitigate "fire kill" the following winter and I support post fire seeding to plant native grasses and shrubs. For ticks and other things some of it is just beyond our control. I know many decry habitat as a factor of herd size but personally I feel the habitat in most areas is not the limiting factor, I would love for our herds to be at a point where habitat is the biggest issue, but we're a long ways from that.
Habitat can always be improved, but if other factors are limiting herd growth and size we need to focus that first and foremost.
For predators the committee proposed an increase in the Cougar harvest which was struck down by Jay Inslee because it did not have a public input period therefore violating the rules process, they need to fix that and increase the harvest quota for a first step but that won't be nearly enough. I love the idea of allowing Cougar to be classified both as fur bearer and big game animal, and be trapped and hunted, I have no idea how likely that is to succeed but I fully support it. We also need to quit counting problem lions that are killed because they're attacking livestock or stalking kids, quit counting them against the GMU's quota's for the year!
As for Coyotes and other predators I've been floating the idea around of PIP's (predator incentive points) to be applied towards quality hunts, the idea is that a hunter kills enough predators they've earned a chance at a quality buck or even elk if they've taken mt lion from areas not meeting elk population goals. If the idea of PIP's ever gained traction I'd love to discuss particulars, but at this point just acknowledging a predator problem would be a big step for WDFW.
For bucks 3pt rule vs no 3pt rule I don't care if people get a wall hanging trophy or not, if anything a lack of huge bucks will make the successful hunters stand out more. Go to Montana, huge mule bucks are everywhere and it's no big deal to get a nice buck that would be a trophy in WA. What I don't like about a 3pt rule being in place for generations is that huge forkies will be the main breeders as anything with 4pts will be killed off, in time we'll see a genetic shift towards big forkies. Maybe I would support a 3pt maximum rule for OTC hunters, that would benefit bucks that grow 4 pts quickly, then 4pt and larger for quality hunts or PIP hunters :tup:
The only thing I care about is getting the does pregnant and putting as many fawns on the ground as possible (which would fix the lack of big bucks issue in time) if we killed coyotes more fawns would live and this includes those pronghorn fawns, their #1 enemy is coyotes for bedded fawns, once they get their legs there isn't much out there to take them. Pronghorn do very well in wolf infested areas so there is that, kinda funny the one beneficial thing to wolves is an increased chance the pronghorn will thrive. WY has prong out the wazzu, and that's because they aggressively kill coyotes. I do not support anything that has the potential to make people throw in the towel and quit hunting in WA, hunters throw out a lot of conservation funds yet are underrepresented. Same with sport fishing.
If we better protected our herds from predators we could have very good hunting in WA.
Post by: bigmacc on November 30, 2018, 03:22:53 PM
I like your idea about predators and the PIP program and as far as the 3 point system for muleys, I agree they should not go on for generations, I have been a flag waiver for "mixing it up", for instance when needed and when setting the 3 year blocks put in a 3 point or better for a 6 or 9 period and then if needed go 2 point only for a season or two but don't pick just one and let it role or etch it in stone. IMHO, there still needs to be a different system for mule deer in this state, at least in the prime units(every other year/discontinue quality tags), and a plan that helps decrease predators.
Post by: Ridgeratt on December 02, 2018, 04:37:58 AM
Fri., Nov. 30, 2018, 6 a.m.
If hunter stories and check station results are accurate, the 2018 rifle deer season was a slow one.
“Just in general it seemed like a pretty slow season,” said Annemarie Prince, the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife biologist for District 1. “Our hunter numbers at the check stations seemed about normal. I don’t think there has been a drastic decline in hunters.”
Ninety-six hunters came through WDFW’s Deer Park check station during the late deer season (Nov. 10-19). Those hunters checked 16 white-tailed bucks for a success rate of 16.6 percent. In 2017, 124 hunters bagged 43 bucks for a 34.7 percent success rate, Prince said. In 2016, 79 hunters took 17 deer for a 22 percent success rate.
Prince emphasized that check station results are not the final determination. Mandatory hunter surveys will give WDFW officials a better sense of the season, but those numbers won’t be reported until the end of January.
Matt Mimnaugh, a board member of the Inland Northwest Wildlife Council and the chairman of the big game committee, said he’s heard from other hunters that hunting was slow.
In particular, he said he noticed the rut started about a week later than normal. Normally, the rut begins around Nov. 15.
“It seemed like everything was a little late,” he said. “About a week late this year for whatever reason.”
Mimbaugh, who’d just returned from hunting the late archery season, said he saw legal deer, but he also saw plenty of wolf tracks. He was hunting in game management unit 101 in Ferry County.
“Obviously, there are some wolves up there,” he said. “I actually got to hear them from my tree stand several nights howling.”
Prince hesitated to speculate on why numbers were down, but weather may have played a role. A dry summer and fall may have pushed the deer lower into the valley floors, making traditional hunting spots less than ideal.
“You know, I heard from some other folks that they did see deer, but they were all down in the valley bottoms, which makes sense if there was not enough food,” she said.
The opening weekend (Oct. 13) for general deer season was good, although hot and dry weather the following weekend put a damper on hunting. In Chewelah, 49 hunters stopped at the check station during that opening weekend.
They brought in eight white-tailed deer (two buck and six does) and two mule deer bucks. The Chewelah station also saw two cougars and two turkeys.
In Deer Park, 127 hunters stopped on opening weekend. WDFW officials checked 35 white-tailed deer (24 bucks and 11 does) and three mule deer bucks. In 2017 174 hunters stopped in Deer Park checking in 25 white-tailed deer and three mule deer.
Anterless permit reduction planned
One management change is expected next year, Prince said. The number of anterless deer permits will be cut in third.
This was the first year in a long time that anterless permits have been offered in Northeast Washington. Because WDFW doesn’t have past years of data to compare and contrast, Prince said the agency is acting conservatively by reducing the number of permits in 2019.
In 2018, WDFW offered 630 anterless permits. In 2019, they will offer about 200.
“Our permits get adjusted every year,” she said. “The longer we have them, the more informed they become.”
Sounds like they have quit doing wildlife surveys and rely on the hunter's for the stats. Just like they want us to keep them informed on Moose sightings.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2018/nov/30/late-deer-numbers-down-wdfw-plans-to-reduce-anterl/
Another case of reduced opportunity and then to increase the fee's.
Post by: KFhunter on December 02, 2018, 04:30:28 PM
Maybe this new study will shed some light in the new predator/deer dynamic and see if there really are fewer bucks. I would like to see if bucks are being killed because they tend to hang higher longer and spend more time in predator kill zones, maybe the predator competition over shrinking resources is what's doing the bucks in. Doe's are safer out in farmer's fields then a mile or two up in the woods.
Post by: bigmacc on December 02, 2018, 05:22:34 PM
Yep, it sucks. and yep it does need to happen along with a whole bunch of other things. Get rid of doe tags(unless absolutely needed and then on a year by year basis), get rid of multi season tags, and get rid of quality tags. Predators, absolutely put bounty's or enhanced/incentive driven hunts on them all(bear, cats, yotes), If we can't bring back all the old ways of controlling predators then we need to team up, think outside the box and get the predator problem under control. Here we go again, yep the "good ole day" stuff, now days we(the young hunters, not me :chuckle:) are spoiled as far as "hunting seasons", back in the day you had ONE season and yes, it lasted 2-3 weeks but that was it. You hunted with your rifle or your bow or your muzzy or your bare hands if thats what you wanted, but you had your 2-3 weeks and done, PERIOD. The deer were left to be deer before and after those 2-3 weeks, now they are being pressured by not only predators that are exploding in numbers year round but in a lot of areas are being chased by hunters for 2,3,and even up to 4 MONTHS. You know what really sucks, it sucks if your a deer or an elk for that matter! When I was young and my dad would sit me on a remote draw or in a cold dark saddle and say "you know what pard" I want you to sit here and "think like a deer", "what would you do" and "where would you go if something was pushin you"......Not to many options now days because of greed by the state, :twocents: and yep by we as hunters also.
Post by: hunter399 on December 02, 2018, 07:03:52 PM
I agree with ya .
Yep, it sucks. and yep it does need to happen along with a whole bunch of other things. Get rid of doe tags(unless absolutely needed and then on a year by year basis), get rid of multi season tags, and get rid of quality tags. Predators, absolutely put bounty's or enhanced/incentive driven hunts on them all(bear, cats, yotes), If we can't bring back all the old ways of controlling predators then we need to team up, think outside the box and get the predator problem under control. Here we go again, yep the "good ole day" stuff, now days we(the young hunters, not me :chuckle:) are spoiled as far as "hunting seasons", back in the day you had ONE season and yes, it lasted 2-3 weeks but that was it. You hunted with your rifle or your bow or your muzzy or your bare hands if thats what you wanted, but you had your 2-3 weeks and done, PERIOD. The deer were left to be deer before and after those 2-3 weeks, now they are being pressured by not only predators that are exploding in numbers year round but in a lot of areas are being chased by hunters for 2,3,and even up to 4 MONTHS. You know what really sucks, it sucks if your a deer or an elk for that matter! When I was young and my dad would sit me on a remote draw or in a cold dark saddle and say "you know what pard" I want you to sit here and "think like a deer", "what would you do" and "where would you go if something was pushin you"......Not to many options now days because of greed by the state, :twocents: and yep by we as hunters also.
Sounds familiar with my father,
Except you would get dropped off at bottom of mountain ,he would say see that ridge,or that rock ,or that big tree up there I will be waiting for ya .Then he would drive up there. :chuckle:
Or walk you for miles in circles all dang day.,Then say which way is the truck.Then have you lead the way to the truck .It would start getting dark,and he would say it's time you better start figuring it out.then it would be dark and he would say it's this way you been going the wrong way.Sometimes I wonder if he was lost too. :chuckle:
I'm glad that wdfw is starting to see a problem.I just wish they would stop doe permits for a year or two.Not just reduce them.
Post by: Ridgeratt on December 03, 2018, 07:43:29 AM
OLYMPIA – Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) staff will start capturing deer in northeast Washington in early December and fit them with radio-collars as part of an ongoing predator-prey study that began two years ago.
The study, scheduled to run at least five years, will help to assess the impact of wolves, cougars, and other predators on deer and elk by monitoring the interactions of all species.
This winter, researchers hope to capture at least 30 white-tailed deer in Stevens and Pend Oreille counties – primarily on public land, but also on private land where WDFW has secured landowner permission. Capture techniques include trapping animals using bait, entangling them in drop nets, and darting them with immobilization drugs from the ground.
The study plan also calls for radio-collaring wolves, cougars, bobcats, and coyotes in Stevens, Pend Oreille, and Okanogan counties. Some wolves are already radio-collared in those areas, but researchers want to maintain collars on at least two wolves in each of the packs within the study area. Cougar capture work with the use of dogs will get underway in late November, followed by bobcat and coyote captures using box traps and foothold traps after Jan. 1.
Collaborating researchers from the University of Washington (UW) will join WDFW research scientists and field biologists to monitor radio-collared ungulates and track their movements, distribution, habitat use, diet, productivity and survival. Cougars will be monitored to learn about changes in social behavior, population dynamics, prey selection and movements in areas where wolves also occur.
State wildlife managers ask that hunters who harvest a radio-collared deer or elk – and residents who encounter a dead radio-collared animal – contact WDFW's Eastern Region office in Spokane Valley (509-892-1001), so researchers can recover the collar and collect biological samples from the carcasses.
Funding for the five-year study comes from a 2015 state legislative appropriation, federal Pittman-Robertson funds, and state wildlife funds.The UW also secured National Science Foundation grant funds for part of the project.
https://wdfw.wa.gov/news/nov2818a/
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 03, 2018, 08:07:24 AM
Keep in mind I’m not a trapper, but aren’t foot hold traps illegal because they are inhumane and can rip and break legs off animals and kill indiscriminately (or so were told?) but they are ok for the department to use for their collaring and tracking studies?
Post by: Ridgeratt on December 03, 2018, 08:13:15 AM
I’ll derail this thread now...
Keep in mind I’m not a trapper, but aren’t foot hold traps illegal because they are inhumane and can rip and break legs off animals and kill indiscriminately (or so were told?) but they are ok for the department to use for their collaring and tracking studies?
Not derailing it, But what about the legal trappers during the season who may have a bobcat detained in a box trap? Could they become a research animals and be released prior to the trapper harvesting them? :dunno:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 03, 2018, 08:32:48 AM
I’ll derail this thread now...The department knows how great they are for catching animals and how little they injure or stress animals out....but doesn't seem to say it in defense of trapping for non-bios.
Keep in mind I’m not a trapper, but aren’t foot hold traps illegal because they are inhumane and can rip and break legs off animals and kill indiscriminately (or so were told?) but they are ok for the department to use for their collaring and tracking studies?
Post by: Humptulips on December 03, 2018, 08:33:26 AM
There are times when I do let stuff go like Bobcat kittens though and I suppose they could be collared. My experience with getting someone from DFW for a release though is not good. At best it is an entire day wasted. Most likely 2 days.
Turning in Cougar accidentally caught it has taken me as long as 7 days of phone calls to get a response.
I once caught a collared bobcat and called DFW about it. No one seemed interested and the collar pretty much ruins the fur value.
I have to add I think a bobcat preying on deer is a pretty unusual occurrence. It does happen I will admit but I have opened up 100s of bobcats and the indications of feeding on deer is almost non-existent. Possibly it may occur more often in the spring with new fawns so there may be some validity to looking at it.
Post by: hunter399 on December 03, 2018, 08:46:41 AM
Post by: luckyman on December 03, 2018, 05:04:18 PM
I did see a doe wearing a collar in Stevens county this year durring hunting season.That must be how they collar a wolf.
Post by: jager on December 03, 2018, 06:26:48 PM
I read this the other day.
The study has already been going on for two years?? Two years? What have they been doing?
So they might have answers in 5 years... for the 2024-2025 season... Horse s***
Post by: Ridgeratt on December 03, 2018, 06:31:07 PM
Anterless permit reduction planned
One management change is expected next year, Prince said. The number of anterless deer permits will be cut in third.
This was the first year in a long time that anterless permits have been offered in Northeast Washington. Because WDFW doesn’t have past years of data to compare and contrast, Prince said the agency is acting conservatively by reducing the number of permits in 2019.
In 2018, WDFW offered 630 anterless permits. In 2019, they will offer about 200.
“Our permits get adjusted every year,” she said. “The longer we have them, the more informed they become.”
"Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) staff will start capturing deer in northeast Washington in early December and fit them with radio-collars as part of an ongoing predator-prey study that began two years ago."
I read this the other day.
The study has already been going on for two years?? Two years? What have they been doing?
So they might have answers in 5 years... for the 2024-2025 season... Horse s***
Apparently they have just started Looking at the does number's. :chuckle:
Post by: jager on December 03, 2018, 06:43:18 PM
It's. just. mind blowing :mor:
Post by: KFhunter on December 03, 2018, 07:14:38 PM
Post by: Seabass on December 03, 2018, 07:38:21 PM