Post by: birdmanwa on November 12, 2018, 05:46:33 PM
What’s everyone’s else thoughts?
Post by: tgomez on November 12, 2018, 05:57:59 PM
Post by: huntnnw on November 12, 2018, 06:12:22 PM
Post by: Seabass on November 12, 2018, 06:19:33 PM
Never gone into the late archery season without a single shooter on camera. I had 2 or 3 bucks that made it through last years hunting season but clearly didn’t make it through the winter. Maybe they died of blue tounge...? No idea
Post by: baldopepper on November 12, 2018, 07:02:12 PM
Post by: jnevs23 on November 12, 2018, 07:08:17 PM
Post by: Seabass on November 12, 2018, 07:18:45 PM
I've watched the decline in whitetails around my place in 121 for the last several years. Boys did take three during the early hunt (two decent bucks and a spike), but they were the only bucks they saw in 3 days of hunting. Ran into several hunters this past weekend and all complained about the lack of whitetails. I can't really pin it on any one cause, but do know I'm only seeing a fraction of the whiteys I saw just 5-6 years ago. Still scratching my head over the doe permits they gave out for the area.
I was worried that this year was coming. Last year I had 4 shooters on camera but 2 of them were at least 7 1/2 years old. I was actually shocked when one of them was still alive last year. I had 4 years of him and he was older when I found him.
I didn’t have any bucks that were in that 3 1/2 - 4 1/2 class. I had 4 old bucks and a bunch of really young bucks.
Post by: Seabass on November 12, 2018, 07:22:15 PM
Post by: birdmanwa on November 12, 2018, 07:34:31 PM
Post by: Jimmer on November 12, 2018, 07:38:28 PM
Post by: HUNTIN4SIX on November 12, 2018, 07:46:38 PM
Post by: Seabass on November 12, 2018, 08:12:43 PM
I think cougars are big problem. They are big deer killers. I think the last 2 winters did more damage than people think, especially on the older bucks. You just don’t see many. It seems we all sort of agree on the declining deer population but the state sees it as stable with 30 bucks for 100 does which I think it’s way less than that.
Last year’s winter was worse than most realize. I had to leave 2 cams over winter because there was too much snow to even park my truck when I went back up the week after New Year’s.
Post by: Limhangerslayer on November 12, 2018, 08:28:58 PM
I've watched the decline in whitetails around my place in 121 for the last several years. Boys did take three during the early hunt (two decent bucks and a spike), but they were the only bucks they saw in 3 days of hunting. Ran into several hunters this past weekend and all complained about the lack of whitetails. I can't really pin it on any one cause, but do know I'm only seeing a fraction of the whiteys I saw just 5-6 years ago. Still scratching my head over the doe permits they gave out for the area.I wonder if it was something that happened this summer? We saw tons of whitetails this spring turkey hunting.
Post by: Seabass on November 12, 2018, 08:33:47 PM
I've watched the decline in whitetails around my place in 121 for the last several years. Boys did take three during the early hunt (two decent bucks and a spike), but they were the only bucks they saw in 3 days of hunting. Ran into several hunters this past weekend and all complained about the lack of whitetails. I can't really pin it on any one cause, but do know I'm only seeing a fraction of the whiteys I saw just 5-6 years ago. Still scratching my head over the doe permits they gave out for the area.I wonder if it was something that happened this summer? We saw tons of whitetails this spring turkey hunting.
I’m wondering the same thing...maybe blue tongue?
Post by: jnevs23 on November 12, 2018, 08:45:03 PM
Post by: HUNTIN4SIX on November 12, 2018, 09:04:50 PM
Post by: hunter399 on November 12, 2018, 09:19:53 PM
Big bucks are gone.Hunters complain about the 4pt min rule here in the northeast a few years ago.The 4pt min was helping the doe/buck ratio along with populations in general.
When you put a rule like that in effect and don't stick with it this is what happens.Pretty much a lot of the big bucks shot in the past three years where survivors of the 4pt min rule from years ago .Kinda like a chalk board and you erase all the hard work from the 4pt min now this is what your left with.
Anyway doe permits need to stop .
Youth ,disabled,65 over are ok.
Predators do need to be keep in check.
That includes us hunters as well .
BRING BACK THE 4PT MIN IN NORTHEAST WA.
The 4pt min is not just about quality hunt , But population of whitetail ,if they would of keep it they could of been giving out spike permits to all the youth hunters to thin the buck ratio .Now we are left with tag soup and OTC spike hunt.
Hunters are own worst enemy .
Rant over.
Post by: bornhunter on November 12, 2018, 09:32:38 PM
Post by: mdbuck5x5 on November 12, 2018, 09:38:35 PM
Post by: Bobvernon2 on November 12, 2018, 09:46:58 PM
You guys wanna know the reason.
Big bucks are gone.Hunters complain about the 4pt min rule here in the northeast a few years ago.The 4pt min was helping the doe/buck ratio along with populations in general.
When you put a rule like that in effect and don't stick with it this is what happens.Pretty much a lot of the big bucks shot in the past three years where survivors of the 4pt min rule from years ago .Kinda like a chalk board and you erase all the hard work from the 4pt min now this is what your left with.
Anyway doe permits need to stop .
Youth ,disabled,65 over are ok.
Predators do need to be keep in check.
That includes us hunters as well .
BRING BACK THE 4PT MIN IN NORTHEAST WA.
The 4pt min is not just about quality hunt , But population of whitetail ,if they would of keep it they could of been giving out spike permits to all the youth hunters to thin the buck ratio .Now we are left with tag soup and OTC spike hunt.
Hunters are own worst enemy .
Rant over.
lets be real in certain areas of each unit the four point rule did raise the maturity level of deer, HOWEVER in a lot of the agricultural areas it left a crap ton of deer destroying crops and property. so landowners culled (with WDFW assistance) alot of deer. overpopulation in areas created a prime habitat for disease deaths via bluetongue. when large populations of deer that used to have several different water sources use the same water source in areas that slowly dry up due to drought it creates a recipe for destruction. so between disease, predators (which no one targets), and overharvesting we have lost a massive amount of deer. I do agree with goodbye anterless tags with those exceptions you listed, we need to reduce the landowner tags available to whomever the highest bidder is. AND as much as it pains me to lose those glory days of shooting my first spike, 4pt minimum should come back until the popluation rebounds, (still support a East and West side deer tag)
Post by: Seabass on November 12, 2018, 09:47:52 PM
My trail camera data from 2013/14/15 will absolutely support how effective that rule was. I wish it were still in effect. The area I hunt gets absolutely pounded during the gun season. It always has, before during and after the antler point restriction. That never mattered. There were also cougars and bears during that time. I never had a problem finding a mature buck or 4 to hunt.
Despite my disappointment in the restriction being lifted, I don’t believe the rule change is the culprit of what’s going on today. I still have a lot of bucks on camera...most of them would be legal under the old 4-point restriction. They are the dumb deer that typically get killed. It’s the older age class that has disappeared and seemingly all at once...or at least in 2 years.
Post by: bornhunter on November 12, 2018, 09:53:26 PM
Post by: Seabass on November 12, 2018, 09:54:19 PM
Post by: huntnnw on November 12, 2018, 09:57:29 PM
Post by: Bobvernon2 on November 12, 2018, 10:04:25 PM
4pt min is NOT the issue. I hunt units that have never had a 4pt min rule and NEVER had issues finding bucks and big bucks for decades.You’re one of those rare no bait kinda guys who look for deer huh? Lol kidding.
Post by: Seabass on November 12, 2018, 10:06:38 PM
They both had high concentrations of bears and cats. The wolves are new but I haven’t noticed much change from the wolves either, to be honest.
I have personally killed or been part of at least 12-15 bear kills over the last 20 years...killed a cat too. It’s hard to envision that bears and cats have all of the sudden gone crazy killing deer. This kind of drop off seems more likely due to winter, disease or both.
Post by: huntnnw on November 12, 2018, 10:13:29 PM
Post by: Seabass on November 12, 2018, 10:27:29 PM
i think its a combo of alot of things, predators,winters,disease and hunting have all taken their toll. I have very good friends who are avid whitetail guys complaining how bad it is. I have never witnessed whitetail hunting in this state as bad as it is today.I’m sure you’re right....it’s never one thing.
It’s a real bummer! My mind is consumed by two things....coaching football and hunting big white tails. When we got eliminated from the playoffs early I told my wife, at least I get to check my cameras and build a shooter list....nope!
Post by: baldopepper on November 13, 2018, 06:41:11 AM
Post by: boneaddict on November 13, 2018, 06:55:42 AM
Youll note how tribal policy is shifting in regards to wolf hunting. They can see the impact and thankfully are doing something about it.
Post by: Jonathan_S on November 13, 2018, 07:09:54 AM
Of course the shiploads of hunters are back to try and kill a whitetail doe now. Amazing how these animals can withstand so much abuse and still be viable. Mature bucks are still around. Does and fawns are less and less
Post by: dibbs on November 13, 2018, 07:43:35 AM
WDFW is treating deer herds as an unlimitied resource, and I truly believe has absolutely no idea of the severe decline in numbers out there and how poor the populations are.
Multi season tags, too liberal seasons, second tags and way too many predators has to change. The state has NO wolf management program, quotas on cougars, and doesnt allow hound hunting for cats and bears.
In general, mis-managment of a resource & overhunting.
I'd hunt on a draw if I had a chance of harvesting something decent every couple years.
WE as sportsmen, need to flood WDFW / and the game comission with letters and emails and let them know what a crappy job they are doing, and that they need to change things prior to next years seasons. Please get involved, make some noise so maybe there will be a deer or two left for our childern/grandchildren.
Post by: baldopepper on November 13, 2018, 07:59:33 AM
Archery: Sept 1-26. Any whitetail
Muzzleloader: Sept 29-Oct 7 Any whitetail
Modern: disabled/youth. Oct 13/14, Oct20/21 Any whitetail
Special Antlerless: Oct 13-26. 225 permits
Combine all these with the any buck option and you have a tremendous amount of pressure. Seems every hunting group I saw this past opening had at least one youth Hunter with them looking for a doe. Great to see the young hunters out, but have to wonder if this is in the best interest of the whitetail herd
Post by: boneaddict on November 13, 2018, 08:16:48 AM
Quote
WE as sportsmen, need to flood WDFW / and the game comission with letters and emails and let them know what a crappy job they are doing, and that they need to change things prior to next years seasons. Please get involved, make some noise so maybe there will be a deer or two left for our childern/grandchildren.
Problem is most are screaming for more opportunity and the selective hearing responds well when it means more 💰
Once again this oh it has to be antlerless for youth hunting is a bunch of ..... you can fall in love with hunting and become successful without having to harvest a doe. If management of a healthy herd needs it, then yes it’s an opportunity. Otherwise shame on the department and shame on us hunters.
Post by: Jonathan_S on November 13, 2018, 08:19:55 AM
Post by: vandeman17 on November 13, 2018, 08:27:37 AM
QuoteWE as sportsmen, need to flood WDFW / and the game comission with letters and emails and let them know what a crappy job they are doing, and that they need to change things prior to next years seasons. Please get involved, make some noise so maybe there will be a deer or two left for our childern/grandchildren.
Problem is most are screaming for more opportunity and the selective hearing responds well when it means more 💰
Once again this oh it has to be antlerless for youth hunting is a bunch of ..... you can fall in love with hunting and become successful without having to harvest a doe. If management of a healthy herd needs it, then yes it’s an opportunity. Otherwise shame on the department and shame on us hunters.
Spot on. I am all about doing whatever is needed to help the herds of pretty much all deer in Eastern WA.
Post by: baldopepper on November 13, 2018, 08:37:07 AM
Post by: birdmanwa on November 13, 2018, 09:37:06 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on November 13, 2018, 09:50:51 AM
Post by: SpurInSpokane on November 13, 2018, 10:26:21 AM
It's a pretty classic paradox in using hunting as a management tool to reduce numbers, because the hunters doing the managing usually have an interest in keeping population levels up, while those who are sustaining crop damage certainly want to see numbers drop.
Another potential reason to keep whitetail numbers low, esp in the 124 area, is possibly to reduce competition with mule deer (I don't know that that's an objective of WDFW, just a possibility).
I can't speak to the other units in the corner. I suspect bears and cougars are doing a lot of damage, wolves are adding some to that...like others have said, lots of things probably combining.
Post by: weatherbow21 on November 13, 2018, 10:47:20 AM
Post by: Seabass on November 13, 2018, 12:15:54 PM
I DO remember hearing a ton of hunters claim that they would boycott those areas and all the pressure would fall on the areas without the restrictions. I don't believe that actually happened...certainly not in the area of 121 that I hunt. Literally nothing changed as far as the number of hunters in the woods goes.
We are going to need some light winter's and disease free/fire free summer's if we are going to get back on track. The department isn't going to do anything about the issue...most of us wouldn't allow them to even if they had the stones to try.
I was shocked to see the doe harvest during late archery get re-introduced in 121....almost fell on my sword arguing about it with a buddy. I didn't believe it until I read if for myself.
Post by: fishngamereaper on November 13, 2018, 02:25:30 PM
Post by: TommyH on November 13, 2018, 03:55:09 PM
i think its a combo of alot of things, predators,winters,disease and hunting have all taken their toll. I have very good friends who are avid whitetail guys complaining how bad it is. I have never witnessed whitetail hunting in this state as bad as it is today.
:yeah: They seem few and far between this year.
Post by: Jimmy33 on November 13, 2018, 05:42:40 PM
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Post by: tracksoup on November 13, 2018, 06:06:31 PM
We need to have 3 separate types of tags: whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer. You have to choose. I also feel like there should be a quota by way of a draw for mule deer.I’m sure glad you aren’t running fish and game
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Post by: teanawayslayer on November 13, 2018, 06:18:27 PM
We need to have 3 separate types of tags: whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer. You have to choose. I also feel like there should be a quota by way of a draw for mule deer.agreed 100%
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Post by: tracksoup on November 13, 2018, 06:25:02 PM
We need to have 3 separate types of tags: whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer. You have to choose. I also feel like there should be a quota by way of a draw for mule deer.agreed 100%
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We need to put our efforts toward solving the real problem. “Predators”
Let’s not keep taking away opportunities from ourselves
Post by: WildlifeAssassin on November 13, 2018, 06:34:18 PM
We need to have 3 separate types of tags: whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer. You have to choose. I also feel like there should be a quota by way of a draw for mule deer.
Disagree. Hunting different species is the only good thing about Washington deer. It also allows me to be selective about only taking mature bucks because I don’t have to fill my tag during general mulie season.
Eliminate doe tags unless over management objectives, open season on eastern Wa wolves, dogs back for lions, and bait or more spring opportunities for bear. Hunters need to stop letting coyotes walk. If numbers are way down in a unit close it to hunting for a year or don’t offer late tags.
Post by: Thehowler on November 13, 2018, 07:37:48 PM
Some good points. Too many doe tags for the young, old, and special draw. Changes reversed on all voted in restrictions on dogs, cats and bait. If you see a coyote while hunting, and you don’t try to kill it, do everybody else a favor, and give yourself a time out for the rest of the day, please.We need to have 3 separate types of tags: whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer. You have to choose. I also feel like there should be a quota by way of a draw for mule deer.I
Disagree. Hunting different species is the only good thing about Washington deer. It also allows me to be selective about only taking mature bucks because I don’t have to fill my tag during general mulie season.
Eliminate doe tags unless over management objectives, open season on eastern Wa wolves, dogs back for lions, and bait or more spring opportunities for bear. Hunters need to stop letting coyotes walk. If numbers are way down in a unit close it to hunting for a year or don’t offer late tags.
Post by: johnr060 on November 13, 2018, 07:41:10 PM
We need to have 3 separate types of tags: whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer. You have to choose. I also feel like there should be a quota by way of a draw for mule deer.
Could not agree more!
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Post by: chuckster on November 13, 2018, 08:22:41 PM
Post by: Jimmy33 on November 13, 2018, 08:51:16 PM
Me too...too many people to make happy. Keep in mind even Colorado has draw hunts for mulies...We need to have 3 separate types of tags: whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer. You have to choose. I also feel like there should be a quota by way of a draw for mule deer.I’m sure glad you aren’t running fish and game
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Post by: huntnnw on November 13, 2018, 10:08:02 PM
We need to have 3 separate types of tags: whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer. You have to choose. I also feel like there should be a quota by way of a draw for mule deer.:yeah: or pick East or west deer tag just like elk
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Post by: huntnnw on November 13, 2018, 11:35:03 PM
Post by: mien hunter on November 14, 2018, 12:10:16 AM
Post by: huntnnw on November 14, 2018, 01:12:07 AM
Post by: Jimmy33 on November 14, 2018, 06:36:24 AM
That would be fine alsoWe need to have 3 separate types of tags: whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer. You have to choose. I also feel like there should be a quota by way of a draw for mule deer.:yeah: or pick East or west deer tag just like elk
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Post by: Mr Mykiss on November 14, 2018, 06:40:09 AM
we also have a 2018 post your deer thread on here. 35 pages long as of today and there is 1 mature whitetail buck posted. I am sure there will be a few added as we approach the rut for whitetails, but it says something about the population in this state today.Not sure that matters one iota when WDFW openly says they manage for opportunity and not quality.
Post by: TommyH on November 14, 2018, 06:46:07 AM
That would be fine alsoWe need to have 3 separate types of tags: whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer. You have to choose. I also feel like there should be a quota by way of a draw for mule deer.:yeah: or pick East or west deer tag just like elk
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I would be ok with having to pick one or the other east/west. :tup:
Post by: baldopepper on November 14, 2018, 06:51:16 AM
Me too...too many people to make happy. Keep in mind even Colorado has draw hunts for mulies...We need to have 3 separate types of tags: whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer. You have to choose. I also feel like there should be a quota by way of a draw for mule deer.I’m sure glad you aren’t running fish and game
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I think one of the big problems is the "to many people to keep happy" part. Question is are we managing to keep people happy or managing in the best interest of the deer herds Utah has had the draw system for years now and you have to apply for specific units only. Hasn't made a lot of people happy, but I believe it has made for better herd management. Biggest complaint is how it has split long time hunting groups up when only 1-2 of the group draws out. If we are true sportsmen I think we should opt for managing in the best interests of the deer herds.Me too...too many people to make happy. Keep in mind even Colorado has draw hunts for mulies...We need to have 3 separate types of tags: whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer. You have to choose. I also feel like there should be a quota by way of a draw for mule deer.I’m sure glad you aren’t running fish and game
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Post by: mburrows on November 14, 2018, 06:54:53 AM
Post by: baldopepper on November 14, 2018, 07:05:28 AM
Post by: mburrows on November 14, 2018, 07:36:13 AM
How do you reduce the number of issued tags without a draw system? First come/ first served would create chaos.
Idaho does it with elk tags.
Post by: birdmanwa on November 14, 2018, 09:07:28 AM
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[/quote] I think one of the big problems is the "to many people to keep happy" part. Question is are we managing to keep people happy or managing in the best interest of the deer herds Utah has had the draw system for years now and you have to apply for specific units only. Hasn't made a lot of people happy, but I believe it has made for better herd management. Biggest complaint is how it has split long time hunting groups up when only 1-2 of the group draws out. If we are true sportsmen I think we should opt for managing in the best interests of the deer herds.
[/quote]
I agree on managing but it starts at the state level. Correct me if I am wrong but one of the reasons they did away with the 4pt rule was the towns were crying about the economy taking a hit with less hunters? It had nothing to do from a management standpoint. They didn’t do it long enough to have any real data.
Post by: baldopepper on November 14, 2018, 09:51:02 AM
Post by: northwesthunter84 on November 14, 2018, 02:20:40 PM
Based on experiance with whitetail in the midwest, the only way to grow larger bucks is to limit doe population (because they eat the good groceries too), increase forage content (plant food plots or leave standing crops), and increase buck escapement (limit harvest to mature animals, set size/point restrictions and cull undesirable characteristics). So where Washington fails is habitat/forage. There is a lot of land but the food mass production per acre is low. Farmers are working with significatly smaller surpluses on the yield curve and the crops are usually not high carb foods like soybeans and corn. Not many people have food plots specifically for game animals. The does at 3:1 are out competing the bucks for food. As far as reproduction it also appears that the fawn recruitment levels are relatively low, which again outside predation goes back to forage.
Predators are an issue but one we can only do so much about within the scope of the law.
The best answer would be to re-implement an antler restriction. Shoot more does in key areas. And to promote programs which introduce more food sources for animals away from standard crops.
As a final thought based on my spring turkey hunt on the east side, the deer concentration of which I witnessed a small segment of was 20x more dense than the areas that I hunt in Illinois and our camp shoots 10-15 deer a season.
Post by: Jgarrigus on November 14, 2018, 02:50:01 PM
Post by: baldopepper on November 14, 2018, 03:17:00 PM
I have been watching this thread for a while now. It seems the issue is people are complaining about the buck to doe ratio and trophy quality/age structure.Interesting thoughts, but comparing Washington to Midwestern and southern states is very difficult. Illinois, as an example, has over 70,000 farms compared to Washington's 35,000 plus. Very few farms are managed in Washington with hunting in mind, while a high percentage in Illinois are leased out and at least partially managed with hunting in mind. Lot of management decisions are made on the farm level with game management a high priority. This is common in the Midwest and southern states-kind of boils down to micro managing literally thousands of different herds of deer. Additionally they have virtually no predator problems to contend with. I suspect your contentions have merit, just not sure how you'd implement them in western states with lots of public ground and agriculture interests that are not conducive to easy game management
Based on experiance with whitetail in the midwest, the only way to grow larger bucks is to limit doe population (because they eat the good groceries too), increase forage content (plant food plots or leave standing crops), and increase buck escapement (limit harvest to mature animals, set size/point restrictions and cull undesirable characteristics). So where Washington fails is habitat/forage. There is a lot of land but the food mass production per acre is low. Farmers are working with significatly smaller surpluses on the yield curve and the crops are usually not high carb foods like soybeans and corn. Not many people have food plots specifically for game animals. The does at 3:1 are out competing the bucks for food. As far as reproduction it also appears that the fawn recruitment levels are relatively low, which again outside predation goes back to forage.
Predators are an issue but one we can only do so much about within the scope of the law.
The best answer would be to re-implement an antler restriction. Shoot more does in key areas. And to promote programs which introduce more food sources for animals away from standard crops.
As a final thought based on my spring turkey hunt on the east side, the deer concentration of which I witnessed a small segment of was 20x more dense than the areas that I hunt in Illinois and our camp shoots 10-15 deer a season.
Post by: huntnnw on November 14, 2018, 10:40:00 PM
Post by: Seabass on November 15, 2018, 07:03:25 AM
private with ag fields the buck to doe ratio can be way out of whack. When we hunt mountain whitetails I have some setups where the bucks out number the does or 1:1 ratio.
I would echo that. I ONLY hunt mountain white tails. Often times, I will have more bucks than does. Very rarely are the does outnumbering the bucks. My kids hunt an area that is in “farm country”. They will often times have 3-4 does for every buck on their cameras.
Post by: boneaddict on November 15, 2018, 07:11:34 AM
Post by: northwesthunter84 on November 15, 2018, 08:12:10 AM
Post by: bearpaw on November 15, 2018, 08:20:01 AM
Cougar
I can go out and find 5 times as many cougar tracks in one day as I could in the seventies and early 80's. So if northeast Washington used to have 300 cougar and there are now 1500 cougar then there are 1200 more cougar eating deer each year. F&G studies have shown that one cougar eats from 25 to 50 deer per year, so those 1200 additional cougars are eating 30,000 to 60,000 more deer per year. Even if the cougar population has only doubled (an underestimate) there are 300 hundred more cougar eating 7,500 to 15,000 more deer per year.
Wolves
Another new and increasing predator on the landscape, this is another predator we have not had in volume for over 100 years. WDFW admit to having roughly 80 wolves in northeast WA. Studies have also shown that wolves also eat about an identical amount of game as cougar. So there are 80 wolves and each probably eating 25 to 50 ungulates per year. That's 2,000 to 4,000 more deer, elk, or moose being eaten by wolves.
Bear
There's not much of an argument, bear numbers have increased since baiting and hounds are no longer allowed. While it is documented and proven that bear prey on fawns for a period in the spring I don't have any solid numbers to suggest how many deer might be getting eaten by the additional bear on the landscape.
Coyotes
Since the fur industry has been pretty much eliminated by greeners coyotes have really multiplied. It is no secret how devastating coyotes are on young fawns in June and July or on adult deer during January and February during winters with deep snow. Again I don't have any study to quote numbers, but with likely twice as many coyotes running around today there is no doubt more deer being killed by coyotes.
Homes
There are a lot of new homes in NE WA. However whitetails do very well in human populated areas. In NE WA I'm certain there are far more whitetail in human inhabited areas than out in the remote areas, whitetail actually thrive around humans but there are other associated factors with having more humans.
Autos
This is another huge factor, with twice as many autos driving the highways there are probably twice as many deer killed on the roadways. There are a lot of roadkills in northeast WA.
Domestic Dogs
Rural areas have seen the most growth in northeast WA. Most counties have doubled or more in population and nearly everyone has dogs they let run loose. I saw some stats from a F&G study done somewhere that showed a significant portion of overall mortality caused by domestic dogs.
Hunters
There are actually fewer hunters in the woods, however, more of these hunters are killing doe deer than several decades ago. If we kill too many of the breeders you can't increase the herd size. Again it's very simple mathematics!
Blue Tongue & Hard Winters
These are usually the most population reducing factors in NE WA. I think it's been three years since blue tongue had a big impact and two or three years since a big winter kill. Some have suggested a winter kill last winter, I don't think there was much die off last winter, we would see fresh bones in the spring if there was a big winter kill. However, when nature reduces the herd it takes a few years for numbers to build back up. If during this time of low deer population the predator numbers are too high then the recovery is slower and may take many years to recover.
WDFW
If during this time of a deer herd trying to recover you have a F&G Dept that is trying to make it appear deer numbers are better than they are and are trying to keep license sales going strong, and are allowing more antlerless hunting then it is very likely to have a negative impact on the deer numbers in a herd that's trying to recover during a period of extreme predation. WDFW seems to have gone predator crazy, their main goal appears to be in putting as many predators on the landscape as possible.
Do the math, add up all these increased impacts by predators, increased impacts by autos and dogs, and the fact that hunters are taking more antlerless breeders. How can a deer herd recover in a normal amount of time? Will the deer herd ever recover to the levels we had in the past?
Just my :twocents:
Post by: nwwanderer on November 15, 2018, 08:27:40 AM
Post by: Mr Mykiss on November 15, 2018, 08:38:20 AM
Eventually people will tire of not being able to find a good buck, then people will tire of not being able to find a legal buck, then people will tire of not being able to draw a anterless permit, then...???
Post by: bearpaw on November 15, 2018, 08:40:30 AM
We recognized the heavy deer losses a couple years ago and we adjusted the number of hunters we booked the last few years to hunt on our deer leases. We basically cut the number of hunters in half the last few seasons. We have experienced from 90% to 100% success every year. This year so far, I think every guided hunter has killed his deer and all but five hunters have killed on the first day they hunted. We are experiencing as good of hunting success as we ever have had. But we have reduced the number of hunters to allow the herds on our leases to recover and to try and make up for the increased predator impact.
PREDATORS: We are seeing cougar tracks and seeing the actual cougar pretty regular. We now randomly see more cougar in one season than I saw in my first 30 years of living in NE WA. That is how bad the cougar population has gotten. I would offer late winter cougar hunts after we finish other hunts, but the cougar quotas fill too fast and the cougar season closes. On one of the properties a wolf pack moved in and the deer left during early season, finally the pack moved on and we have a few deer back again, we've actually taken a couple bucks off that property this week.
Post by: boneaddict on November 15, 2018, 08:42:56 AM
Post by: bearpaw on November 15, 2018, 08:45:02 AM
The fact there is a cougar quota is frickin ridiculous especially with the current lack of hound hunting.
:yeah: WDFW at it's finest! :bash:
In north Idaho we can take two cougar, take two bear, hunt 5 wolves, and trap 5 wolves. Cougar season is open from Nov 1 till Mar 31, over the counter bear tags in spring or fall, over the counter wolf tags. We have increased our outfiting activities in Idaho because we are seeing an increase in ungulate numbers. We are decreasing the outfitting we do in WA, mostly due to the mismanagement and reductions in game numbers we are seeing.
Post by: quadrafire on November 15, 2018, 08:52:09 AM
Bearpaw's numbers just with Predator loss is amazing. Add in all the other factors, I'm surprised there are any deer at all.
Post by: boneaddict on November 15, 2018, 09:01:45 AM
Post by: bearpaw on November 15, 2018, 09:09:43 AM
Are there estimated numbers for the size of the WT herd in the NE?
Bearpaw's numbers just with Predator loss is amazing. Add in all the other factors, I'm surprised there are any deer at all.
It's hard to kill off every deer even when you high fence an area. But if you go hunting on public land you will find that there aren't very many deer, nothing like there used to be! Thankfully we have leases to hunt where we have tried to mitigate the negative impacts. Idaho flies almost every unit with a helicopter about every 5 years and they get a count that they use to gauge the herd trends. I don't think WDFW attempts to estimate the whitetail herd numbers and I'm not sure they need to. WDFW does do some transects in the summer to gauge herd trends, from what i understand some of the transects were changed, it appears they are cruising more farm ground, that might indicate herds have not dropped below previous levels and that herds are in better condition than they were. I don't know if that is the reason or not, but I myself do not trust WDFW management!
There are some good wardens and bios, but if your job depends on keeping your mouth shut and saying what you are told to say, then you might only say what you are told to say? I can't say for certain that is happening in WDFW but I'm not going to say that it isn't happening.
Post by: quadrafire on November 15, 2018, 09:20:27 AM
Post by: Seabass on November 15, 2018, 09:24:41 AM
The fact there is a cougar quota is frickin ridiculous especially with the current lack of hound hunting.
That makes absolutely ZERO sense!
Post by: bearpaw on November 15, 2018, 09:25:37 AM
Im going to try to get the tribal numbers. I think they have their finger on the pulse a little better. They still chase cougs, but Im guessing they are feeling the wolf impact a bit and are trying to adjust. (as noted about their announcement to expand their wolf hunting)
The tribe wants deer and elk to feed it's members, they have a sincere interest in regulating predator numbers. :tup:
Post by: baldopepper on November 15, 2018, 03:28:29 PM
Simple mathmastics.....all great points. Only thing I might add is humter equipment. Seems every other rig I see has an ATV on it allowing these hunters to access more remote, country easier. Many are carrying range finders and weapons they can confidently shoot out to 500+ yards Binoculars that allow them to count the fleas on a deer at 200 yards and lighter, warmer clothing that allows them to stay in the field longer. Might be fewer hunters but modern gear allows them to be far more efficient. Archery huntrs have also come a long,long ways from the old recurve days (sorry, but not sure why they get nearly a full month to hunt and either sex in most area)
Cougar
I can go out and find 5 times as many cougar tracks in one day as I could in the seventies and early 80's. So if northeast Washington used to have 300 cougar and there are now 1500 cougar then there are 1200 more cougar eating deer each year. F&G studies have shown that one cougar eats from 25 to 50 deer per year, so those 1200 additional cougars are eating 30,000 to 60,000 more deer per year. Even if the cougar population has only doubled (an underestimate) there are 300 hundred more cougar eating 7,500 to 15,000 more deer per year.
Wolves
Another new and increasing predator on the landscape, this is another predator we have not had in volume for over 100 years. WDFW admit to having roughly 80 wolves in northeast WA. Studies have also shown that wolves also eat about an identical amount of game as cougar. So there are 80 wolves and each probably eating 25 to 50 ungulates per year. That's 2,000 to 4,000 more deer, elk, or moose being eaten by wolves.
Bear
There's not much of an argument, bear numbers have increased since baiting and hounds are no longer allowed. While it is documented and proven that bear prey on fawns for a period in the spring I don't have any solid numbers to suggest how many deer might be getting eaten by the additional bear on the landscape.
Coyotes
Since the fur industry has been pretty much eliminated by greeners coyotes have really multiplied. It is no secret how devastating coyotes are on young fawns in June and July or on adult deer during January and February during winters with deep snow. Again I don't have any study to quote numbers, but with likely twice as many coyotes running around today there is no doubt more deer being killed by coyotes.
Homes
There are a lot of new homes in NE WA. However whitetails do very well in human populated areas. In NE WA I'm certain there are far more whitetail in human inhabited areas than out in the remote areas, whitetail actually thrive around humans but there are other associated factors with having more humans.
Autos
This is another huge factor, with twice as many autos driving the highways there are probably twice as many deer killed on the roadways. There are a lot of roadkills in northeast WA.
Domestic Dogs
Rural areas have seen the most growth in northeast WA. Most counties have doubled or more in population and nearly everyone has dogs they let run loose. I saw some stats from a F&G study done somewhere that showed a significant portion of overall mortality caused by domestic dogs.
Hunters
There are actually fewer hunters in the woods, however, more of these hunters are killing doe deer than several decades ago. If we kill too many of the breeders you can't increase the herd size. Again it's very simple mathematics!
Blue Tongue & Hard Winters
These are usually the most population reducing factors in NE WA. I think it's been three years since blue tongue had a big impact and two or three years since a big winter kill. Some have suggested a winter kill last winter, I don't think there was much die off last winter, we would see fresh bones in the spring if there was a big winter kill. However, when nature reduces the herd it takes a few years for numbers to build back up. If during this time of low deer population the predator numbers are too high then the recovery is slower and may take many years to recover.
WDFW
If during this time of a deer herd trying to recover you have a F&G Dept that is trying to make it appear deer numbers are better than they are and are trying to keep license sales going strong, and are allowing more antlerless hunting then it is very likely to have a negative impact on the deer numbers in a herd that's trying to recover during a period of extreme predation. WDFW seems to have gone predator crazy, their main goal appears to be in putting as many predators on the landscape as possible.
Do the math, add up all these increased impacts by predators, increased impacts by autos and dogs, and the fact that hunters are taking more antlerless breeders. How can a deer herd recover in a normal amount of time? Will the deer herd ever recover to the levels we had in the past?
Just my :twocents:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on November 15, 2018, 03:54:40 PM
Post by: Mtnwalker on November 15, 2018, 04:02:10 PM
Post by: hambone on November 15, 2018, 04:44:30 PM
Post by: hunter399 on November 15, 2018, 05:30:57 PM
Also seen a side by side running the roads as soon as they seen me they turned around.
Did see 1 moose
Did see 10 elk
There was more in the pic but I had to zoom it in a little ,the other elk where in the trees behind these.pic quality sucks taken with my cell at about 200 yards away.
Post by: chuckster on November 15, 2018, 09:05:45 PM
Post by: birdmanwa on November 16, 2018, 10:27:12 AM
They say 10 percent of hunters kill 90 percent of the good deer. I think this is very true over the past few days of the rut my buddies have sent me great pics of big deer they have killed. As I said before changes need to happen but I don't understand how the success rate was 24 percent last year and likely less this year when I pass on bucks mulitable times every season. And yes am hunting public ground get out of your truck and work for it. The numbers are not great but I think that anyone who hunts hard has a decent chance. Or I maybe I have just been lucky for the past 6 years in a row that I have got a deer. Missed a couple before that due to college but a good handful before college. I wish we would get better about the predators but there are still deer out there.
This thread had nothing to do with getting out of your truck. I simply brought up the population of deer and the declining population of deer in the NE. Of course deer are being killed but I think everyone has agreed there is a low population and predators are becoming a larger problem.
Post by: Seabass on November 16, 2018, 02:06:36 PM
I have a feeling we aren’t far off here in Washington.
Post by: Mr Mykiss on November 18, 2018, 06:31:13 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on November 18, 2018, 07:47:39 AM
At least can hunt cougars year-round in Oregon...
And they can trap smaller predators coyotes, bobcats effectively.
I believe their future with wolves is better than ours too. I dare say that Oregon is better off
Post by: dmoua on November 20, 2018, 08:40:00 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on November 20, 2018, 08:58:58 AM
Gotta start hunting these things more.
Can't really cat hunt with much efficacy. Not many guys are going to follow dozens of miles of cougar tracks with only the ability to call and hopefully not blow out the cat, hopefully it can hear, hopefully it comes, hopefully you see it and hopefully get a shot.
That one there was - I imagine - a chance occurence without even snow on the ground. Awesome and way to capitalize but it's not really a duplicatable event unfortunately
Post by: Seabass on November 20, 2018, 09:17:47 AM
Gotta start hunting these things more.
It's staggering how many dudes are seeing and killing cats this season. Maybe I'm simply paying more attention to the number but it sure seems like there are a LOT more guys randomly killing cats...seems like a testament to how many there are out there.
Post by: hogslayer on November 20, 2018, 09:57:01 AM
Post by: dmoua on November 20, 2018, 10:55:43 AM
Gotta start hunting these things more.
Can't really cat hunt with much efficacy. Not many guys are going to follow dozens of miles of cougar tracks with only the ability to call and hopefully not blow out the cat, hopefully it can hear, hopefully it comes, hopefully you see it and hopefully get a shot.
That one there was - I imagine - a chance occurence without even snow on the ground. Awesome and way to capitalize but it's not really a duplicatable event unfortunately
It was luck more than anything but it's still possible. This is the second cat that I've seen just hunting or deer hunting and have had the opportunity to shoot. The first one was never found. People just need to buy the tags so when opportunities like this arise they are able to do their part.
Post by: Seabass on November 20, 2018, 10:59:51 AM
Gotta start hunting these things more.
Can't really cat hunt with much efficacy. Not many guys are going to follow dozens of miles of cougar tracks with only the ability to call and hopefully not blow out the cat, hopefully it can hear, hopefully it comes, hopefully you see it and hopefully get a shot.
That one there was - I imagine - a chance occurence without even snow on the ground. Awesome and way to capitalize but it's not really a duplicatable event unfortunately
It was luck more than anything but it's still possible. This is the second cat that I've seen just hunting or deer hunting and have had the opportunity to shoot. The first one was never found. People just need to buy the tags so when opportunities like this arise they are able to do their part.
I killed one a few years ago during the late archery season....right time and place.
Post by: huntnnw on November 20, 2018, 10:21:27 PM
They say 10 percent of hunters kill 90 percent of the good deer. I think this is very true over the past few days of the rut my buddies have sent me great pics of big deer they have killed. As I said before changes need to happen but I don't understand how the success rate was 24 percent last year and likely less this year when I pass on bucks mulitable times every season. And yes am hunting public ground get out of your truck and work for it. The numbers are not great but I think that anyone who hunts hard has a decent chance. Or I maybe I have just been lucky for the past 6 years in a row that I have got a deer. Missed a couple before that due to college but a good handful before college. I wish we would get better about the predators but there are still deer out there.
this has absolutely nothing to do with getting out of the truck! Myself along with a dozen friends who are avid whitetail guys . We run hundreds of cams between us have noticed a massive drop off in deer pop and mature bucks. One friend ran over 40 cams in 3 units to never turn up a 150" buck! unheard of in these areas. I have cams in areas just as little as 5 years ago would average 7-10 bucks to now you are lucky to get a deer on camera! I was hunting areas over the weekend where there is virtually 0 sign of deer where once was full of deer! I never saw a fresh rub which was shocking! not even old ones.
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on November 20, 2018, 11:45:31 PM
They say 10 percent of hunters kill 90 percent of the good deer. I think this is very true over the past few days of the rut my buddies have sent me great pics of big deer they have killed. As I said before changes need to happen but I don't understand how the success rate was 24 percent last year and likely less this year when I pass on bucks mulitable times every season. And yes am hunting public ground get out of your truck and work for it. The numbers are not great but I think that anyone who hunts hard has a decent chance. Or I maybe I have just been lucky for the past 6 years in a row that I have got a deer. Missed a couple before that due to college but a good handful before college. I wish we would get better about the predators but there are still deer out there.
this has absolutely nothing to do with getting out of the truck! Myself along with a dozen friends who are avid whitetail guys . We run hundreds of cams between us have noticed a massive drop off in deer pop and mature bucks. One friend ran over 40 cams in 3 units to never turn up a 150" buck! unheard of in these areas. I have cams in areas just as little as 5 years ago would average 7-10 bucks to now you are lucky to get a deer on camera! I was hunting areas over the weekend where there is virtually 0 sign of deer where once was full of deer! I never saw a fresh rub which was shocking! not even old ones.
I was in 117/111/113 this past week and it was pathetic. I grew up in that area and have been hunting it for over 20 years and this was by far the worst year for deer numbers I have seen. Every...EVERY area that I walked into had either cougar or wolf tracks. Pretty sad state of affairs.
Post by: huntnnw on November 20, 2018, 11:50:32 PM
Post by: bearpaw on November 21, 2018, 05:33:55 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on November 21, 2018, 05:42:50 AM
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on November 21, 2018, 06:15:34 AM
Moose hunting yesterday I counted 12 wolves and 8 cougar tracks, might be a connection?
What unit for moose? I ran into a monster on Saturday.
Post by: birdmanwa on November 21, 2018, 09:18:32 AM
Post by: Ridgeratt on November 21, 2018, 09:37:30 AM
Would be interested to see what the deer density per square mile estimates are from WDFW. Excluding the farm deer. I know where I used to have 20/30 in the pasture I now have a doe and a set of twins. :bash:
Post by: Seabass on November 21, 2018, 11:53:19 AM
They say 10 percent of hunters kill 90 percent of the good deer. I think this is very true over the past few days of the rut my buddies have sent me great pics of big deer they have killed. As I said before changes need to happen but I don't understand how the success rate was 24 percent last year and likely less this year when I pass on bucks mulitable times every season. And yes am hunting public ground get out of your truck and work for it. The numbers are not great but I think that anyone who hunts hard has a decent chance. Or I maybe I have just been lucky for the past 6 years in a row that I have got a deer. Missed a couple before that due to college but a good handful before college. I wish we would get better about the predators but there are still deer out there.
this has absolutely nothing to do with getting out of the truck! Myself along with a dozen friends who are avid whitetail guys . We run hundreds of cams between us have noticed a massive drop off in deer pop and mature bucks. One friend ran over 40 cams in 3 units to never turn up a 150" buck! unheard of in these areas. I have cams in areas just as little as 5 years ago would average 7-10 bucks to now you are lucky to get a deer on camera! I was hunting areas over the weekend where there is virtually 0 sign of deer where once was full of deer! I never saw a fresh rub which was shocking! not even old ones.
I have a circle of WT nuts that I keep in contact with. That circle consists of 8-10 dudes that are all what most would consider "over the top" when it comes to trying to kill big bucks. I wouldn't even wager a guess at the number of trail cams that the group, collectively has in the woods. One guy has 2 bucks in that 140-150" class, 2 other's each have 1 (including 1 giant that I won't guess a score on) and the rest of us have nothing that even resembles a shooter. We are all spread out over 101, 117, 121....even a couple in 124 and 127.
I checked a camera last week in an traditionally good area that had 5-6 bucks on it last year. On a 2 week soak over bait....1 picture of a doe. My most active camera had 3-4 does and 3 young bucks on it.
I have been moving cameras all over the place. I will check some of those new cameras on Friday but my expectations are pretty low.
Post by: Mr Mykiss on November 22, 2018, 06:38:10 AM
Post by: idaho guy on November 22, 2018, 09:04:28 AM
They say 10 percent of hunters kill 90 percent of the good deer. I think this is very true over the past few days of the rut my buddies have sent me great pics of big deer they have killed. As I said before changes need to happen but I don't understand how the success rate was 24 percent last year and likely less this year when I pass on bucks mulitable times every season. And yes am hunting public ground get out of your truck and work for it. The numbers are not great but I think that anyone who hunts hard has a decent chance. Or I maybe I have just been lucky for the past 6 years in a row that I have got a deer. Missed a couple before that due to college but a good handful before college. I wish we would get better about the predators but there are still deer out there.
this has absolutely nothing to do with getting out of the truck! Myself along with a dozen friends who are avid whitetail guys . We run hundreds of cams between us have noticed a massive drop off in deer pop and mature bucks. One friend ran over 40 cams in 3 units to never turn up a 150" buck! unheard of in these areas. I have cams in areas just as little as 5 years ago would average 7-10 bucks to now you are lucky to get a deer on camera! I was hunting areas over the weekend where there is virtually 0 sign of deer where once was full of deer! I never saw a fresh rub which was shocking! not even old ones.
I have a circle of WT nuts that I keep in contact with. That circle consists of 8-10 dudes that are all what most would consider "over the top" when it comes to trying to kill big bucks. I wouldn't even wager a guess at the number of trail cams that the group, collectively has in the woods. One guy has 2 bucks in that 140-150" class, 2 other's each have 1 (including 1 giant that I won't guess a score on) and the rest of us have nothing that even resembles a shooter. We are all spread out over 101, 117, 121....even a couple in 124 and 127.
I checked a camera last week in an traditionally good area that had 5-6 bucks on it last year. On a 2 week soak over bait....1 picture of a doe. My most active camera had 3-4 does and 3 young bucks on it.
I have been moving cameras all over the place. I will check some of those new cameras on Friday but my expectations are pretty low.
Not to derail this with Idaho but I think it’s interesting
You guys aren’t alone on this I put on a few huge hikes last 2 days in places that I have traditionally seen tons of deer and rattled in multiple bucks and me and my family have taken a bunch of nice bucks. Almost no deer sign and seen very few deer. It’s public land but hard to access and some of it you need permission to cross private to get there. All of this is close to Coeur d alene 1 hour or less and some borders wa. It’s like the deer just disappeared. It’s all north of cda seems like if you go farther south numbers are still good :dunno: I live on acreage out of town and our resident deer are almost non existent as well and we usually just leave them alone during season and used to be all over. We deer hunted south more north central and deer numbers were good or at least what seemed “normal “
Post by: hunter399 on November 22, 2018, 09:17:49 AM
Private lands that are not huntable is not opportunity.
Private land owners that don't allow hunting that complain or make reports of problems deer should be round file.
Post by: ellensburgpo on November 22, 2018, 09:43:26 AM
Wdfw need to do population checks on public lands .
Private lands that are not huntable is not opportunity.
Private land owners that don't allow hunting that complain or make reports of problems deer should be round file.
Just because someone doesn't want to let the general public on their property doesn't mean they shouldn't be taken seriously if they have a deer problem. Have you spent time around some of the hunters out there? The majority I've seen I wouldn't want anywhere near our land with the crazy stuff I've watched. Hunter behavior is responsible for so much private land being off limits, we made our bed in many ways and now we are sleeping in it. IMHO.
Post by: idaho guy on November 22, 2018, 09:46:56 AM
I agree with you baldopepper, there is a major difference between the two. I still believe it all comes down to quality food sources per capita for deer. It helps winter survival and overall herd health. The comment about doe reduction in key areas was specifically tailored to agriculture areas, they will always out compete a lone buck for food consumption. With all the public land there is no easy answer, but there in lies my reasonning, people are complaining about WDFW approach to quantitity over quality as far as bucks go. Sure everyone wants to shoot a buck 140"+ but even this is difficult with antler restrictions in place. Allowing age structure to project upward is about the only hope to increase a bucks chance of reaching maturity and thereby full potential, but this is all still constrained by available food sources.
I think what you are saying is spot on for the Midwest but is off for the west. You don’t have predators like out west. One lion kills 52 deer a year if that’s all it’s feeding on I don’t even want to know what damage the wolves are doing I think they say 20 plus big game animal per wolf per year but I have seen a lot of not eaten carcasses where they must have been thrill killing.
Post by: hunter399 on November 22, 2018, 10:00:30 AM
If someone has a deer problem but won't allow a handful of hunters to take care of the problem.They kinda made there own bed having a deer problem. :dunno:Wdfw need to do population checks on public lands .
Private lands that are not huntable is not opportunity.
Private land owners that don't allow hunting that complain or make reports of problems deer should be round file.
Just because someone doesn't want to let the general public on their property doesn't mean they shouldn't be taken seriously if they have a deer problem. Have you spent time around some of the hunters out there? The majority I've seen I wouldn't want anywhere near our land with the crazy stuff I've watched. Hunter behavior is responsible for so much private land being off limits, we made our bed in many ways and now we are sleeping in it. IMHO.
And don't think there problem should be affecting doe permits and hurting populations on public land.
Post by: rudysts on November 22, 2018, 11:54:34 AM