NE buck/deer population.

[baldopepper]

We need to have 3 separate types of tags: whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer. You have to choose. I also feel like there should be a quota by way of a draw for mule deer.


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I’m sure glad you aren’t running fish and game

Me too...too many people to make happy. Keep in mind even Colorado has draw hunts for mulies...


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We need to have 3 separate types of tags: whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer. You have to choose. I also feel like there should be a quota by way of a draw for mule deer.


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I’m sure glad you aren’t running fish and game

Me too...too many people to make happy. Keep in mind even Colorado has draw hunts for mulies...


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I think one of the big problems is the "to many people to keep happy" part. Question is are we managing to keep people happy or managing in the best interest of the deer herds Utah has had the draw system for years now and you have to apply for specific units only.  Hasn't made a lot of people happy, but I believe it has made for better herd management.  Biggest complaint is how it has split long time hunting groups up when only 1-2 of the group draws out. If we are true sportsmen I think we should opt for managing in the best interests of the deer herds.

[mburrows]

I dont think picking east or west/picking a species would do much to reduce deer harvest at all. Mule deer guys would still kill their mule deer, blacktail guys will still kill them and same for whitetails. Reduce antlerless harvest, reducing the number of issued tags and reducing other predators would be the top three ways to improve herds in my opinion.

[baldopepper]

How do you reduce the number of issued tags without a draw system? First come/ first served would create chaos.

[mburrows]

How do you reduce the number of issued tags without a draw system? First come/ first served would create chaos.

Idaho does it with elk tags.

[birdmanwa]

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[/quote] I think one of the big problems is the "to many people to keep happy" part. Question is are we managing to keep people happy or managing in the best interest of the deer herds Utah has had the draw system for years now and you have to apply for specific units only.  Hasn't made a lot of people happy, but I believe it has made for better herd management.  Biggest complaint is how it has split long time hunting groups up when only 1-2 of the group draws out. If we are true sportsmen I think we should opt for managing in the best interests of the deer herds.
[/quote]

I agree on managing but it starts at the state level. Correct me if I am wrong but one of the reasons they did away with the 4pt rule was the towns were crying about the economy taking a hit with less hunters? It had nothing to do from a management standpoint. They didn’t do it long enough to have any real data.

[baldopepper]

That's probably part of the reason they dropped the 4 point reg, but once again a decision made to keep people happy. I don't know how you get around it, but decisions made just to keep people happy is a good part of what has created the predator problem and the decline in big game herds. Hate to think it, but I don't see any management changes coming soon.

[northwesthunter84]

I have been watching this thread for a while now.  It seems the issue is people are complaining about the buck to doe ratio and trophy quality/age structure. 
Based on experiance with whitetail in the midwest, the only way to grow larger bucks is to limit doe population (because they eat the good groceries too), increase forage content (plant food plots or leave standing crops), and increase buck escapement (limit harvest to mature animals, set size/point restrictions and cull undesirable characteristics).  So where Washington fails is habitat/forage.  There is a lot of land but the food mass production per acre is low.  Farmers are working with significatly smaller surpluses on the yield curve and the crops are usually not high carb foods like soybeans and corn.  Not many people have food plots specifically for game animals.  The does at 3:1 are out competing the bucks for food.  As far as reproduction it also appears that the fawn recruitment levels are relatively low, which again outside predation goes back to forage. 
Predators are an issue but one we can only do so much about within the scope of the law.

The best answer would be to re-implement an antler restriction.  Shoot more does in key areas.  And to promote programs which introduce more food sources for animals away from standard crops.

As a final thought based on my spring turkey hunt on the east side, the deer concentration of which I witnessed a small segment of was 20x more dense than the areas that I hunt in Illinois and our camp shoots 10-15 deer a season.

[Jgarrigus]

have spent early and late deer in IEP land, as well as public land. Early deer saw a lot of does, no bucks. Went out this past weekend for late deer, having a fresh dusting of snow, I was excited to see what is moving around up there, also checking spots I had seen does in the early hunt; nothing but multiple sets of cougar tracks and coyote tracks, and one set of moose. Made me not want to be out there knowing there weren't even any deer walking around feeding in the area. Going out this last weekend for the last hurrah, we'll see what happens.

[baldopepper]

I have been watching this thread for a while now.  It seems the issue is people are complaining about the buck to doe ratio and trophy quality/age structure. 
Based on experiance with whitetail in the midwest, the only way to grow larger bucks is to limit doe population (because they eat the good groceries too), increase forage content (plant food plots or leave standing crops), and increase buck escapement (limit harvest to mature animals, set size/point restrictions and cull undesirable characteristics).  So where Washington fails is habitat/forage.  There is a lot of land but the food mass production per acre is low.  Farmers are working with significatly smaller surpluses on the yield curve and the crops are usually not high carb foods like soybeans and corn.  Not many people have food plots specifically for game animals.  The does at 3:1 are out competing the bucks for food.  As far as reproduction it also appears that the fawn recruitment levels are relatively low, which again outside predation goes back to forage. 
Predators are an issue but one we can only do so much about within the scope of the law.

The best answer would be to re-implement an antler restriction.  Shoot more does in key areas.  And to promote programs which introduce more food sources for animals away from standard crops.

As a final thought based on my spring turkey hunt on the east side, the deer concentration of which I witnessed a small segment of was 20x more dense than the areas that I hunt in Illinois and our camp shoots 10-15 deer a season.

Interesting thoughts, but comparing Washington to Midwestern and southern states is very difficult. Illinois, as an example, has over 70,000 farms compared to Washington's 35,000 plus. Very few farms are managed in Washington with hunting  in mind, while a high percentage in Illinois are leased  out and at least partially managed with hunting in mind. Lot of management decisions are made on the farm level with game management a high priority. This is common in the Midwest and southern states-kind of boils down to micro managing literally thousands of different herds of deer. Additionally they have virtually no predator problems to contend with.  I suspect your contentions have merit, just not sure how you'd implement them in western states with lots of public ground and agriculture interests that are not conducive to easy game management

[huntnnw]

private with ag fields the buck to doe ratio can be way out of whack. When we hunt mountain whitetails I have some setups where the bucks out number the does or  1:1 ratio.

[Seabass]

private with ag fields the buck to doe ratio can be way out of whack. When we hunt mountain whitetails I have some setups where the bucks out number the does or  1:1 ratio.

I would echo that. I ONLY hunt mountain white tails. Often times, I will have more bucks than does. Very rarely are the does outnumbering the bucks. My kids hunt an area that is in “farm country”. They will often times have 3-4 does for every buck on their cameras.

[boneaddict]

Wolves eat doe or bucks.  I was in an area yesterday normally almost lousy with deer.  I wasn’t seeing a thing.   The 6 sets of tracks lining out down the frost covered road revealed the elephant in the room.  There’s plenty of feed to carry way more deer.  Not the problem.

[northwesthunter84]

I agree with you baldopepper, there is a major difference between the two.  I still believe it all comes down to quality food sources per capita for deer.  It helps winter survival and overall herd health.  The comment about doe reduction in key areas was specifically tailored to agriculture areas, they will always out compete a lone buck for food consumption.  With all the public land there is no easy answer, but there in lies my reasonning, people are complaining about WDFW approach to quantitity over quality as far as bucks go.  Sure everyone wants to shoot a buck 140"+ but even this is difficult with antler restrictions in place.  Allowing age structure to project upward is about the only hope to increase a bucks chance of reaching maturity and thereby full potential, but this is all still constrained by available food sources.

[bearpaw]

Simple mathmatics.....

Cougar
I can go out and find 5 times as many cougar tracks in one day as I could in the seventies and early 80's. So if northeast Washington used to have 300 cougar and there are now 1500 cougar then there are 1200 more cougar eating deer each year. F&G studies have shown that one cougar eats from 25 to 50 deer per year, so those 1200 additional cougars are eating 30,000 to 60,000 more deer per year. Even if the cougar population has only doubled (an underestimate) there are 300 hundred more cougar eating 7,500 to 15,000 more deer per year.

Wolves
Another new and increasing predator on the landscape, this is another predator we have not had in volume for over 100 years. WDFW admit to having roughly 80 wolves in northeast WA. Studies have also shown that wolves also eat about an identical amount of game as cougar. So there are 80 wolves and each probably eating 25 to 50 ungulates per year. That's 2,000 to 4,000 more deer, elk, or moose being eaten by wolves.

Bear
There's not much of an argument, bear numbers have increased since baiting and hounds are no longer allowed. While it is documented and proven that bear prey on fawns for a period in the spring I don't have any solid numbers to suggest how many deer might be getting eaten by the additional bear on the landscape.

Coyotes
Since the fur industry has been pretty much eliminated by greeners coyotes have really multiplied. It is no secret how devastating coyotes are on young fawns in June and July or on adult deer during January and February during winters with deep snow. Again I don't have any study to quote numbers, but with likely twice as many coyotes running around today there is no doubt more deer being killed by coyotes.

Homes
There are a lot of new homes in NE WA. However whitetails do very well in human populated areas. In NE WA I'm certain there are far more whitetail in human inhabited areas than out in the remote areas, whitetail actually thrive around humans but there are other associated factors with having more humans.

Autos
This is another huge factor, with twice as many autos driving the highways there are probably twice as many deer killed on the roadways. There are a lot of roadkills in northeast WA.

Domestic Dogs
Rural areas have seen the most growth in northeast WA. Most counties have doubled or more in population and nearly everyone has dogs they let run loose. I saw some stats from a F&G study done somewhere that showed a significant portion of overall mortality caused by domestic dogs.

Hunters
There are actually fewer hunters in the woods, however, more of these hunters are killing doe deer than several decades ago. If we kill too many of the breeders you can't increase the herd size. Again it's very simple mathematics!

Blue Tongue & Hard Winters
These are usually the most population reducing factors in NE WA. I think it's been three years since blue tongue had a big impact and two or three years since a big winter kill. Some have suggested a winter kill last winter, I don't think there was much die off last winter, we would see fresh bones in the spring if there was a big winter kill. However, when nature reduces the herd it takes a few years for numbers to build back up. If during this time of low deer population the predator numbers are too high then the recovery is slower and may take many years to recover.

WDFW
If during this time of a deer herd trying to recover you have a F&G Dept that is trying to make it appear deer numbers are better than they are and are trying to keep license sales going strong, and are allowing more antlerless hunting then it is very likely to have a negative impact on the deer numbers in a herd that's trying to recover during a period of extreme predation. WDFW seems to have gone predator crazy, their main goal appears to be in putting as many predators on the landscape as possible.

Do the math, add up all these increased impacts by predators, increased impacts by autos and dogs, and the fact that hunters are taking more antlerless breeders. How can a deer herd recover in a normal amount of time? Will the deer herd ever recover to the levels we had in the past?

Just my 

[nwwanderer]

Worth much more than your stated price, thanks