Post by: colockumelk on March 22, 2009, 07:02:54 PM
Such as I have learned that while permit only would help the elk herd there are many variables that have to be considered and also maybe some consequences throughout the state. Also through my research of this option I have learned alot else as well.
The most important thing that I learned about from these discussions is that the one thing that about 99% of everyone on here has agreed on is road managment. Almost everyone I've talked to want and believes that there needs to be some road closures in the Colockum. Heck even the WDFW believes so as well. While many of the other things we might not agree on we do agree that the more road access there is the more animals you are going to have poached and the more animals will be killed by a certain pair of brothers. Also with more road access you will have a lower percentage of spike recruitment. Compare the Teanaway and the Nanum/Quilomene if you don't believe me.
So since you have all taught me so much and have narrowed down exactly what needs to get done lets continue this process and discuss how we should go about closing down the roads. Such as raising money, which roads to close down, how many roads to close down etc.
Again I want to thank all of you for participating and giving me your input. As promised none of your opinions fell on deaf ears. So lets work on closing some roads, let me hear it.
Post by: robodad on March 22, 2009, 07:06:44 PM
Quote
Recently many of you have noticed that I've posted many many things about what should or should not happen to the Colockum elk herd.
You should really start combining all these tons of threads into one so it is easier to follow !! ;)
Post by: C-Money on March 22, 2009, 08:52:07 PM
Post by: colockumelk on March 22, 2009, 09:43:35 PM
The only answer is road closures. There is nothing wrong with making people actually get out and walk when they hunt. As for disabled hunters that's what gates are for. I understand your family likes to drive their ATV's around for recreation. So I understand your concern. But I assure you even if we closed down all but the main roads there would still be plenty of miles that you could drive around on. And if that isn't enough pretty much the entire Manastash has ATV and dirt bike trails that you can literally drive all over. There isn't a whole lot of area in the Manastash that you can't ride on.
Post by: colockumelk on March 22, 2009, 09:55:59 PM
QuoteRecently many of you have noticed that I've posted many many things about what should or should not happen to the Colockum elk herd.
You should really start combining all these tons of threads into one so it is easier to follow !! ;)
I'm hoping the other ones will just die off :)
Post by: robodad on March 22, 2009, 09:57:59 PM
QuoteRecently many of you have noticed that I've posted many many things about what should or should not happen to the Colockum elk herd.
You should really start combining all these tons of threads into one so it is easier to follow !! ;)
I'm hoping the other ones will just die off :)
Just gets confusing trying to switch back and forth between all them just like the draw results threads, you'll see what I mean when they start showin up !!! ;)
Post by: jackelope on March 22, 2009, 09:59:28 PM
just pm me the links and i'll lock them. if i do that no one will be able to reply to them. if you want to do this i will do it tomorrow. i am going to bed soon.
Post by: MichaelJ on March 22, 2009, 11:17:55 PM
Michael
Post by: colockumelk on March 23, 2009, 12:44:47 PM
Post by: gasman on March 23, 2009, 01:11:22 PM
Then after permission was received you would need to raise the money to build or have materials donated for the gate. Have someone build the gate to the specs of the agency. then instaal the gate.All this is going to need to be done with the supervision of the controlling agency.
The agency may want to see all materials donated and labor provided for the job before they will allow any thing to happen, so you will need to talk with them first to see what they will allow you to do, they may tell you to go away and not bother them again with it.
Here is an example:
In order for a group of people (lets say a jeep club) to perform a "clean up" of an area they must first get pemission from the land mangers to see if they will allow for them to clean up (remove) garbadge.
No this does not make any sence, but that is the burocacy of it. Even to do trail maintenace for a trail there must be a plan in effect before it can be done.
Just like an eagle scout: if an boy scout who is on the verge of earning his "Eagle Badge" wants to replace a foot bridge on a trail because the bridge is broken and needs repair, he must first provide a plan with materials before he can start, and its not just a requirement for the project but the land owners as well (FS, WDFW or DNR).
Post by: Buckrub on March 23, 2009, 01:43:46 PM
If indeed the Yakima herd is doing fine then why is the wdfw reducing the number of permits?
Post by: bowhuntin on March 23, 2009, 04:42:19 PM
Clockum,
If indeed the Yakima herd is doing fine then why is the wdfw reducing the number of permits?
The WDFW hasn't even done their surveys yet to determine how many permits to give out this year, so how do you make the claim that the Yakima Herd isn't doing fine?
Post by: Buckrub on March 23, 2009, 05:09:16 PM
Clockum,
If indeed the Yakima herd is doing fine then why is the wdfw reducing the number of permits?
The WDFW hasn't even done their surveys yet to determine how many permits to give out this year, so how do you make the claim that the Yakima Herd isn't doing fine?
http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/seasonsetting/2009-2011_recommendations/final_2009_03_20/elk_general_seasons_special_permit_regulations.pdf
Pg. 49 if you don't want to read the entire file.
Page 65:
Go permit only in the Colockum. Bulls are down 70%oin
five years. True spike is not the answer.
wdfw rresponse
There are over 6,000 hunters that hunt the Colockum elk
herd during the general season. The Agency is not ready
to implement that drastic of a measure at this time.
Post by: Dave Workman on March 23, 2009, 06:43:57 PM
Post by: bowhuntin on March 23, 2009, 06:56:04 PM
Clockum,
If indeed the Yakima herd is doing fine then why is the wdfw reducing the number of permits?
The WDFW hasn't even done their surveys yet to determine how many permits to give out this year, so how do you make the claim that the Yakima Herd isn't doing fine?
http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/seasonsetting/2009-2011_recommendations/final_2009_03_20/elk_general_seasons_special_permit_regulations.pdf
Pg. 49 if you don't want to read the entire file.
Page 65:
Go permit only in the Colockum. Bulls are down 70%oin
five years. True spike is not the answer.
wdfw rresponse
There are over 6,000 hunters that hunt the Colockum elk
herd during the general season. The Agency is not ready
to implement that drastic of a measure at this time.
Thanks for the link. Didn't know they had conducted any surveys yet. I don't think the reduced number of permits is anything to worry about. If I remember right they increased tags for archery last year. I think it is a little early to proclaim the Yakima Herd is in trouble. If this trend continues for the next couple of years then I can see making that claim. Just something to keep an eye on though.
Post by: colockumelk on March 23, 2009, 08:43:32 PM
Clockum,
If indeed the Yakima herd is doing fine then why is the wdfw reducing the number of permits?
First this has nothing to do with this subject. 2nd if you are so smart why don't you tell me. You seem to have all the answers yet somehow don't have any research to back it up. Stick to the subject at hand. After this can we stick to the subject at hand or are you going to continue to jack this thread? If so then please start your own and find your own research and data to support your own point. Since you think that a general season 5 pt minimum for elk would work so well I'm sure you wouldn't have any trouble finding the data to back that up.
Also what does Page 65 have to do with anything? My comment was on page 62! Is this in reference to my comments at the meeting in Ellensburg? If so the WDFW either lied about the 6,000 or they don't read their own research.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/seasonsetting/2009-2011_recommendations/final_2009_03_20/elk_general_seasons_special_permit_regulations.pdf
Go to the above link and scroll down to page 62 and you'll read one of my public comments at the meeting.
My comment which was a tiny part of it says "Go permit only in the Colockum. Bulls are down 70% in 5 years. True Spike is not the answer."
Here's their response. Either they are straight up lying or they don't read their own research.
There are over 6,000hunters that hunt the Colockum elk herd during the general season. The agency is not ready to implement that drastic of a measure at this time."
If they were to look at their own studies which are at the below links they would know that on average only 4,278 hunters have hunted the Colockum. And if you look at those numbers over the past 6 years they have been reduced by 56%
2007- 3,893 hunters
2006- 3,964 hunters
2005- 4,253 hunters
2004- 5,002 hunters
2003- 5,232 hunters
2002- 6,948 hunters
Here's the link with that info. Like I said either they are lying or they need to read their own reports because the number they replied with "6,000" and the latest number of hunters that their reports say "3893" are two very different numbers.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/harvest/index.htm (http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/harvest/index.htm)
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 23, 2009, 08:59:36 PM
Post by: colockumelk on March 24, 2009, 01:33:37 PM
Okay this is where I am at. I've talked to the region 3 director who said that if volunteers would help out the WDFW then that would be great. They have already been planning road closures anyways, they are just running into funding problems. Obviously they would have someone choosing which roads to shut down. So on the WDFW land not a problem. The only problem is that the DNR owns most of that land.
I still need to get with the DNR and see what they think and if they'll allow us to go in there. I'm assuming that they'll want gates if they let us since they'll want access to those places 24/7 because they care more about trees than elk and deer. Which is okay because trees is their job.
One hunting organization in the Kittitas Valley has already told me they are against road closures so obviously they wont help. I need to get in touch with the local RMEF and hopefully they can help since habitat managment is their purpose in life.
One member on here has pledged that he will donate his time and heavy equipment to close roads, we just have to pay for his gas. Which is awsome so thankyou to that person.
Boneaddict made a suggestion which I've never heard before but sounds like an awsome one which is if they're tight on money why don't they just fall a massive tree across the road. Instantly and cheaply closing that road down. If they need to go in there then the WDFW or DNR simply takes a saw to it.
Okay here's where I need help.
1.) Money. I need to know how do you set up a non-profit account to fund this. And what are some good ways we can take donations and also do fund raisers?
2.) I'm going to need some help doing this. So we'll need people to be willing to help out for a day etc. And down the road in August/September we'll need some photographers and videographers to film you know what.
Post by: MichaelJ on March 24, 2009, 03:14:42 PM
Michael
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 24, 2009, 04:14:22 PM
Post by: MichaelJ on March 24, 2009, 04:17:56 PM
I would support road closures for anyone hunting with rifles. Haven't ever heard of someone taking an elk with a bow after driving to the opposite side of a draw. Hap.
I understand your point but what about Poachers and tribal hunting of a few bad apples? They are both major problems in Colockum and from what I've seen most archery hunters and muzzle loader hunters aren't afraid to walk a bit (I hunt both modern and archery and think most of you will agree that rifle hunters as a group have more road hunters than any other user group). Keep in mind this ain't an attack on any users, just logical thinkingon my part.... ;) :chuckle:
Michael
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 24, 2009, 04:32:37 PM
I would support road closures for anyone hunting with rifles. Haven't ever heard of someone taking an elk with a bow after driving to the opposite side of a draw. Hap.
I understand your point but what about Poachers and tribal hunting of a few bad apples? They are both major problems in Colockum and from what I've seen most archery hunters and muzzle loader hunters aren't afraid to walk a bit (I hunt both modern and archery and think most of you will agree that rifle hunters as a group have more road hunters than any other user group). Keep in mind this ain't an attack on any users, just logical thinkingon my part.... ;) :chuckle:
Michael
Poachers and tribal hunters do not obey Wa. State game laws. Why would they obey road closures? A quick formula of effective take down range and success rate should determine the distance of road closures into a particular area. For example, a 700 win mag has an effective kill range of 700yards. A bow has a kill range of lets be generous and say 70 yards. Make the rules for road closures be relevant to the distance the chosen hunting weapon can make a kill. Fair for everyone right?
Post by: colockumelk on March 24, 2009, 10:02:16 PM
Wish i could help more Aaron, but being in idaho, and a poor college student doesn't help you out much.... That and I'll be in oregon for the summer working so again I won't be able to help. Best of luck though and keep fightin the good fight.
Michael
That's no excuse Mike. What, you can't rob a bank or something??? :chuckle:
Post by: YellowDog on March 24, 2009, 10:53:13 PM
1.) Money. I need to know how do you set up a non-profit account to fund this. And what are some good ways we can take donations and also do fund raisers?
2.) I'm going to need some help doing this. So we'll need people to be willing to help out for a day etc. And down the road in August/September we'll need some photographers and videographers to film you know what.
[/quote]
Sorry to say it but you will almost definately need the assistance of an attorney to set this up correctly and to address all of the issues that may arise. What type of organization are you really wanting to form (501(c)(3), Private or Public Foundation, etc.)?You can't just go into a bank and tell them you want to open a non-profit account for an entity that does not officially exist. That means you have bylaws, certificate of formation, and file with the Secretary of State. There are a lot of things to consider and questions to be answered before you start taking money, IMO. If you try taking money in under an account in your own name, people will probably shy away and you may end up with unwanted tax issues for your personal taxes.
Post by: bankwalker on March 24, 2009, 11:17:11 PM
those are naturaly fallen trees though
Post by: SHANE(WA) on March 24, 2009, 11:26:29 PM
Post by: bankwalker on March 24, 2009, 11:35:13 PM
A fallen tree with a WDFw sign on it saying road closed, will help. Not like pulling up to a down tree with nothing on it, anyone would move it.
it would take one guy to rip the sign off and the tree would be gone. people already dont fallow gates or signs...or even gates with signs.
you would have to do more then just gates. it would have to be trenched around both ends of the gates really good aswell. atv's will already have it easy getting around, and alot of wheelers will just look at it as a challange. it happens everywhere else thats gated, so it will be no different in colockum. so you have to make sure the gates get done right and placed in the right location where its not easy to get around. then add trenches.
note* that the average hunter wouldnt go through that trouble. but with the amount of other user groups that use the area...
Post by: MichaelJ on March 25, 2009, 03:30:22 PM
Michael
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 25, 2009, 05:01:10 PM
falling a tree would not help a thing. i know alot of guys, myself included that just cut trees out of the way when we come across them. there also the few who can just drive around them given the right truck and landscape.
those are naturaly fallen trees though
Sounds like a campfire >:(
Post by: colockumelk on March 25, 2009, 10:32:59 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 26, 2009, 01:01:21 PM
I just feel closures are not a bad thing for certain areas but, I will never vote or support any initiative which limits my ability to enjoy and utilize public land year round. It starts as road closures, then trail closures, then area closures...it is the first step in taking away recreation in most circumstances. It gives a reason to limit access. Once access is limited, it makes the process much easier for full closure.
Seems to me, the biggest complaint is poaching and legal poaching. Closing roads will never stop a poacher. Putting in barriers will not stop someone from going around, going further off road and doing more damage to the area. It is a band aid. I don't have the answers but, I would not agree with any road closures.
Post by: colockumelk on March 26, 2009, 04:15:05 PM
While poaching and tribal hunting do affect the bull to cow ratio in the Colockum. The biggest problem in the Colockum is spike recruitment. Spike harvest in the Colockum (328/329) is far higher than the other GMU. The following is the average spike harvest of elk per the GMU's.
Colockum (328,329) 270 spikes per year.
Peaches Ridge (346,336) 132 spikes per year. (Twice as much)
Observatory(342,340) 138 spikes per year (Twice as much)
Goose Prairie(352,356) 78 spikes per year. (3.5 times as much)
GMU (364,368) 165 spikes per year.
So you can see that the Colockum kills off way more spikes per year than the other GMUs. Twice as much in fact. This is why we need to close some of those roads down so the elk in the Colockum have a place to escape to.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 26, 2009, 05:04:22 PM
The Naches/Easton area you described is alot thicker and has alot more dense vegetation. Also to begin with there are far fewer roads in the Naches/Easton area compared to the Colockum. In the Colockum there is literally roads that go down into almost every draw and canyon. Since the Colockum is so open and has so much road access then this has a very negative impact on the elk population. And most of the road closures I'm talking about are roads that are already closed, they just don't have a physical road closure. The unit is a green dot unit and relies on peoples honesty. So putting tank traps or gates up would dramatically cut down on people taking their ATV's down these roads that their not supposed to. You are also correct in that people will always find a way. That is the nature of crime. You can't completely defeat it but you can do things do reduce it.
While poaching and tribal hunting do affect the bull to cow ratio in the Colockum. The biggest problem in the Colockum is spike recruitment. Spike harvest in the Colockum (328/329) is far higher than the other GMU. The following is the average spike harvest of elk per the GMU's.
Colockum (328,329) 270 spikes per year.
Peaches Ridge (346,336) 132 spikes per year. (Twice as much)
Observatory(342,340) 138 spikes per year (Twice as much)
Goose Prairie(352,356) 78 spikes per year. (3.5 times as much)
GMU (364,368) 165 spikes per year.
So you can see that the Colockum kills off way more spikes per year than the other GMUs. Twice as much in fact. This is why we need to close some of those roads down so the elk in the Colockum have a place to escape to.
I could see closing some roads but, all the roads up there inter-connect. Already green dots, close one or close all. That is what it will come down to. They'll just gate the bottom and if you don't have a horse, you're out of luck. That is how I see it happening.
Post by: bankwalker on March 26, 2009, 05:27:02 PM
Post by: colockumelk on March 26, 2009, 07:18:33 PM
you would only be closing off the "dead end" roads and the "short cut" roads. keep the main roads all open but just close off the ones that are not needed. like the short cuts through a valley or over the top of a ridge or w/e:yeah:
Basically exactly what bankwalker says. No one is implying that we should close off all of the roads. We're just saying the dead ends and the short cut ones.
The RMEF and the WDFW have already got some grants to close off some roads so I need to talk with them and see where I or we can help.
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on March 29, 2009, 08:40:40 AM
Thanks Yellow Dog. i don't know anything about setting up a non-profit organization so that is the info I was looking to find thanks. And thanks everyone on input on how to best close up some roads. Thank you. Looks like the WDFW is all about closing at least the roads that already are closed just need a phycial barrier. The DNR that's another story in itself. I also understand the RMEF is trying to get some grants for some road closures so I need to get back with them. Thanks for the help and keep the advice coming. I need all the help I can get.
[/quo
The Same RMEF (Which I am a member of) that scheduled it's February 28 Banquet at the Snoqualmie (tribal) Casino? :bash: :bdid:
As for road closures.....What roads would you close? and how?? The green dot system(and before) already has closed almost all of the interconnecting and short cut roads.
Gates closed during tribal seasons I would be all for. For some of us to spend time up there during the time the tribes are up there with cameras, video,and maybe doing some target shooting. If we were to get some particularly offensive pics we could explore the different outlets to get it to the publics attention.
Post by: colockumelk on April 01, 2009, 10:07:02 PM
For some of us to spend time up there during the time the tribes are up there with cameras, video,and maybe doing some target shooting. If we were to get some particularly offensive pics we could explore the different outlets to get it to the publics attention.
Elkaholic this is exactly what many of us plan on doing. Is filming them shooting multiple bulls a day and showing how they do it. I'm glad we think alike. Many of us on here plan on playing papparazzi this year.
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on May 30, 2009, 12:10:31 PM
Post by: bankwalker on May 30, 2009, 04:43:27 PM
Just curious when we should get started on that one?
yeah i would like to know whats going on with this topic? havent heard much about it for a while, and i hate to see it just die off.
Post by: huntnphool on June 03, 2009, 12:31:08 AM
Post by: colockumelk on June 03, 2009, 02:59:05 PM
I havn't forgotten about it. I've just been really busy trying to work, graduate and take care of my kid. In a couple of weeks i'll have free time again and can give this the attention it deserves.
Post by: whacker1 on June 03, 2009, 03:55:14 PM
However, on the setting up of an organization - not sure you want to go down that path. It typically takes a better part of 9 months to get 501c3 non-profit status, then you have to maintain it. You would be better off to work with RMEF or some similar organization to enlist their help in doing such a thing. I am also not familiar with what RMEF has for parameters as to who they will grant money to (regards to type of entity).
If you can just form a loose sportsman's coalition that would be your best bet, but I imagine RMEF wants more accountability in tax stature than this format.
Post by: colockumelk on June 06, 2009, 07:27:29 PM
Post by: Yak-NDN on June 09, 2009, 11:03:31 PM
This is a good idea coloclk I will give you a call when I head out I always wanted my very own camera bit## I could have some of the best video footage possible if only I could get someone to follow me around. We could be bigger than Primos. (Big Bulls Legally Poached) who wouldn't buy it, We could make money killing elk just like all the other people filming elk hunt's and selling them. Do you think we could get some video of the state hunters running the elk to near death during general season in the colockum. This might help your idea with drawing only.
For some of us to spend time up there during the time the tribes are up there with cameras, video,and maybe doing some target shooting. If we were to get some particularly offensive pics we could explore the different outlets to get it to the publics attention.
Post by: SHANE(WA) on June 09, 2009, 11:33:55 PM
Post by: colockumelk on June 11, 2009, 08:40:27 AM
This is a good idea coloclk I will give you a call when I head out I always wanted my very own camera bit## I could have some of the best video footage possible if only I could get someone to follow me around. We could be bigger than Primos. (Big Bulls Legally Poached) who wouldn't buy it, We could make money killing elk just like all the other people filming elk hunt's and selling them. Do you think we could get some video of the state hunters running the elk to near death during general season in the colockum. This might help your idea with drawing only.
For some of us to spend time up there during the time the tribes are up there with cameras, video,and maybe doing some target shooting. If we were to get some particularly offensive pics we could explore the different outlets to get it to the publics attention.
No one would want to watch you're videos. Watching guys shoot elk from their truck or 4-wheeler with a rifle during the rut or in the winter when they're down low just isn't that exciting. Especially when the door jam is used as a rest.
If you have proof of guys running the elk near to death send it to me and I'd gladly send it to the game wardens since this is illegal. So unless you have physical proof then you're just making wild accusations. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but get some pics for me this year and we'll see what we can work out.
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on June 11, 2009, 08:52:22 AM
Post by: Whitefoot on June 13, 2009, 04:13:58 PM
Like I said that's why we keep in close contact of the game wardens.. So we don't have to deal with all of this....
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on July 16, 2009, 10:44:44 AM
http://www.dnr.wa.gov/Publications/psl_ts_jun09_littlejoe_map.pdf
Jim I found these timber sales on the DNR
website and to me the map on page 5 shows one of the sales on
the Caribou rd some on Clockum rd around the
start of Brewton and one on Clockum around the start of
Naneum.
Post by: alanger on July 16, 2009, 11:16:32 AM
Were not poaching even if you call it legal.. !! Get over it... We walk more or just the same as everybody else.... Trying to follow us around taking pics or video tape us isn't going to help your cause..... We don't run no elk to death either... You shed hunters are the ones doing that...
Like I said that's why we keep in close contact of the game wardens.. So we don't have to deal with all of this....
Whitefoot your poeple hunt quite different than your ancesstors did and your ancesstors used the animals for food instead of a new way to blow a box of ammo.
Just in one trip 56 elks were shot and the heads were cut off and set next to the road with a crude sign to the white men. so of course you dont run elk to death. I am sure all these people on here treasure your opinion. :)
Shed hunters dont have any effect on the elk dieing. the sheds are already there. and they already have new antlers. its not like we go shoot big bulls just for fun if we got an extra box of ammo in the truck and just cut the antlers off. not our way of shed hunting. pointing that out to you. ;)
Post by: Whitefoot on July 16, 2009, 02:15:36 PM
Post by: alanger on July 16, 2009, 07:11:19 PM
hard to say what tribe because they all look the same, based on the reputation they have set for themselves. Not a big shocker. :o
Post by: Yak-NDN on July 17, 2009, 02:48:09 PM
Now don't you think that you claiming 56 in one day is a little far out there I think it was only 50. Making claims like this I don't think any fool can believe that story. Try and bring your story's down to a believable size or you will lose your followers.Were not poaching even if you call it legal.. !! Get over it... We walk more or just the same as everybody else.... Trying to follow us around taking pics or video tape us isn't going to help your cause..... We don't run no elk to death either... You shed hunters are the ones doing that...
Like I said that's why we keep in close contact of the game wardens.. So we don't have to deal with all of this....
Whitefoot your poeple hunt quite different than your ancesstors did and your ancesstors used the animals for food instead of a new way to blow a box of ammo.
Just in one trip 56 elks were shot and the heads were cut off and set next to the road with a crude sign to the white men. so of course you dont run elk to death. I am sure all these people on here treasure your opinion. :)
Shed hunters dont have any effect on the elk dieing. the sheds are already there. and they already have new antlers. its not like we go shoot big bulls just for fun if we got an extra box of ammo in the truck and just cut the antlers off. not our way of shed hunting. pointing that out to you. ;)
Post by: SpotandStalk on July 17, 2009, 08:43:32 PM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on July 18, 2009, 09:40:04 AM
Post by: alanger on July 18, 2009, 11:59:16 AM
50? 56? Does anyone see a big differance there? Still sucks
Exactly.
and that's not the only scenario they have gone up there and shot the chit out of the herds.
Yak-NDN im glad you act online like a good sumaritan or maybe in person too but you cant keep your head in the sand like all the rest of the indians and stand back like you arent hurting anything.
I've heard dicussion about the numbers of true washington hunters chasing and shooting elks in the colockum but thats normal they actually pay a good chunk to get permits and get a shot at a trophy someday. On the other hand you have your everyday jack indian that goes to blow a box of ammo. your choice which is actually sporty. a true spike or the first thing you see. :dunno:
Post by: Yak-NDN on July 19, 2009, 10:44:41 AM
50? 56? Does anyone see a big differance there? Still sucks
Exactly.
Do you really think 50 is a real number that just show how smart and on sided you are. At that many animals on the ground dead there must be at least 50 to 55 pic that was how many were left to rot. Oh and there should be more pics of all the elk that were left on the fence. I don't know why some one would kill bulls just for the horns and then leave them on some fence with a note to you. :stup:
Post by: alanger on July 19, 2009, 11:58:47 AM
50? 56? Does anyone see a big differance there? Still sucks
Exactly.
Do you really think 50 is a real number that just show how smart and on sided you are. At that many animals on the ground dead there must be at least 50 to 55 pic that was how many were left to rot. Oh and there should be more pics of all the elk that were left on the fence. I don't know why some one would kill bulls just for the horns and then leave them on some fence with a note to you. :stup:
Are you listening to your self. exactly what i said. your people dont think it's wrong to go thru and just start laying down elks. And there are pictures on here. threads on here. Read some of them including the damage the indians do. the state gives you money and land. there would be animals on the reservation for you too shoot if you would use CONSERVATION!!!!!!!!!!! >:(
Then you could continue your ways of wasting ammo on your land the state provides to you. Then if you become mature enough you could put in for real permits with the WDFW and actually take place in a sporty hunt. >:(
Yak-NDN people like you make me sick.
"with a note to you. :stup: "
get your head out of the sand. :twocents:
Post by: Whitefoot on July 19, 2009, 03:06:14 PM
Post by: MichaelJ on July 19, 2009, 03:39:10 PM
I heard a story like that on the Quilomen.. Seattle guys were going around saying that to me at the camp.. I was like you dumb ass.. Your in my camp telling me this b.s. ha ha.. nice try buddy.. but that's not a true story... 56 sounds like it's made up.. I don't believe that story at all.. Like a lot of stories on here that's all they are is stories.. Like when pep fish.... juss sounds like a story to get err body all mad and worked up..
Oh PLEASE! Quit spreadin the BS whitefoot, I still have the TEXT MESSAGE FROM YOU saying you shot SIX BULL ELK THIS YEAR ALONE! So yeah I could definitely see a high number of bulls shot from indians like this... have you shot anymore bulls since the WDFW meeting in Eburg???
Michael
Post by: alanger on July 19, 2009, 04:32:04 PM
I heard a story like that on the Quilomen.. Seattle guys were going around saying that to me at the camp.. I was like you dumb ass.. Your in my camp telling me this b.s. ha ha.. nice try buddy.. but that's not a true story... 56 sounds like it's made up.. I don't believe that story at all.. Like a lot of stories on here that's all they are is stories.. Like when pep fish.... juss sounds like a story to get err body all mad and worked up..
Oh PLEASE! Quit spreadin the BS whitefoot, I still have the TEXT MESSAGE FROM YOU saying you shot SIX BULL ELK THIS YEAR ALONE! So yeah I could definitely see a high number of bulls shot from indians like this... have you shot anymore bulls since the WDFW meeting in Eburg???
Michael
Thanks for that michael.
Post by: colockumelk on July 20, 2009, 10:57:55 AM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.tinypic.com%2F2crwndu.jpg&hash=bd6fce92cf505deed6534579702197d2d06d8493)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi28.tinypic.com%2Friatci.jpg&hash=e754230831e248f9394a76da82260a033f6c3855)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi32.tinypic.com%2F2yn5x93.jpg&hash=2b0549b7f238e2016a17a82ec9a3f715a611ecfc)
Post by: boneaddict on July 21, 2009, 06:57:27 AM
Post by: Alan K on July 21, 2009, 09:54:31 AM
That's exactly why I don't care for the natives.
Post by: Yak-NDN on July 21, 2009, 12:13:29 PM
Clockum,Looks like you have your own problems with killing all the future bulls (spikes) maybe you should worrying about the state doing more conservation before all the bulls are killed and quit trying to point the finger totally on the Tribe. With the numbers like that the elk don't stand a chance if you kill all the spikes you don't have any to mature to bulls.
Also what does Page 65 have to do with anything? My comment was on page 62! Is this in reference to my comments at the meeting in Ellensburg? If so the WDFW either lied about the 6,000 or they don't read their own research.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/seasonsetting/2009-2011_recommendations/final_2009_03_20/elk_general_seasons_special_permit_regulations.pdf
Go to the above link and scroll down to page 62 and you'll read one of my public comments at the meeting.
My comment which was a tiny part of it says "Go permit only in the Colockum. Bulls are down 70% in 5 years. True Spike is not the answer."
Here's their response. Either they are straight up lying or they don't read their own research.
There are over 6,000hunters that hunt the Colockum elk herd during the general season. The agency is not ready to implement that drastic of a measure at this time."
If they were to look at their own studies which are at the below links they would know that on average only 4,278 hunters have hunted the Colockum. And if you look at those numbers over the past 6 years they have been reduced by 56%
2007- 3,893 hunters
2006- 3,964 hunters
2005- 4,253 hunters
2004- 5,002 hunters
2003- 5,232 hunters
2002- 6,948 hunters
Here's the link with that info. Like I said either they are lying or they need to read their own reports because the number they replied with "6,000" and the latest number of hunters that their reports say "3893" are two very different numbers.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/harvest/index.htm (http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/harvest/index.htm)
Like I said before I don't fallow the same hunting practices as some others and If I did kill multiple bulls in one year I wouldn't be parading them off.
Post by: alanger on July 21, 2009, 12:59:16 PM
>:(
That's exactly why I don't care for the natives.
Slimming the chances for someone that actually draws for a trophy tag thru wdfw to suceed on a hunt!
Post by: colockumelk on July 21, 2009, 01:56:54 PM
Post by: whacker1 on July 22, 2009, 06:46:48 AM
Post by: teal101 on July 22, 2009, 08:53:07 AM
Clockum,Looks like you have your own problems with killing all the future bulls (spikes) maybe you should worrying about the state doing more conservation before all the bulls are killed and quit trying to point the finger totally on the Tribe. With the numbers like that the elk don't stand a chance if you kill all the spikes you don't have any to mature to bulls.
Also what does Page 65 have to do with anything? My comment was on page 62! Is this in reference to my comments at the meeting in Ellensburg? If so the WDFW either lied about the 6,000 or they don't read their own research.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/seasonsetting/2009-2011_recommendations/final_2009_03_20/elk_general_seasons_special_permit_regulations.pdf
Go to the above link and scroll down to page 62 and you'll read one of my public comments at the meeting.
My comment which was a tiny part of it says "Go permit only in the Colockum. Bulls are down 70% in 5 years. True Spike is not the answer."
Here's their response. Either they are straight up lying or they don't read their own research.
There are over 6,000hunters that hunt the Colockum elk herd during the general season. The agency is not ready to implement that drastic of a measure at this time."
If they were to look at their own studies which are at the below links they would know that on average only 4,278 hunters have hunted the Colockum. And if you look at those numbers over the past 6 years they have been reduced by 56%
2007- 3,893 hunters
2006- 3,964 hunters
2005- 4,253 hunters
2004- 5,002 hunters
2003- 5,232 hunters
2002- 6,948 hunters
Here's the link with that info. Like I said either they are lying or they need to read their own reports because the number they replied with "6,000" and the latest number of hunters that their reports say "3893" are two very different numbers.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/harvest/index.htm (http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/harvest/index.htm)
Like I said before I don't fallow the same hunting practices as some others and If I did kill multiple bulls in one year I wouldn't be parading them off.
We have our own problems and the tribes sure as hell aren't helping with them. Theres many problems with the clockum elk herd. You'd think the tribes since you are supposed to be all buddy buddy with nature would want whats best for the herd. All I see is us asking you guys to join us in the fight to save the elk and us getting a cold shoulder because of your selfish greedy ways. >:(
Post by: colockumelk on July 22, 2009, 01:56:59 PM
Post by: colockumelk on July 22, 2009, 02:10:23 PM
So we've given up stuff for the advancement of wildlife managment. We're sick of giving and giving while all you do is take. Maybe it's time for you guys to give up or sacrifice something to actually do something positive for the elk herd.
Post by: bearmanric on July 22, 2009, 02:17:38 PM
Post by: Yak-NDN on July 23, 2009, 11:16:42 AM
we dont even want to talk about the coast. next weekend opener bear. thank god they dont get out of there rig's or the elk would be gone. sad but hunting has come to the end shortly for the white man. were out numbered. game department can care less about us. with all the cutback's on predator season's and and wolf now. and indian killing the elk at an alarming rate. i was at lick creek last september i witnessed the elk head's on the road's horn's cutoff and just the head's. also several big bull's found dead. alot of pissed of bowhunters. i got the hell out of there. there killing big group's out of the olympic herd. the indian girl's driving car's with babys in back and a white guy in the passenger side with rifle two like that seen them every weekend. makes me sick. the elk are gone for the most part. i understand how you feel about the collockum. we have about as much as a chance as us getting back bear baiting. you will never stop it. not the way whashington is. Rick
This shows just how you people are, all on hear say they wouldn't hunt year around if they could or use their privileges well this man has seen it with is own eyes, (A white guy) some guy finds Pocahontas and he thinks he is Indian and start killing all the elk I told you non tribal member are a bigger problem. I don't think it is OK for anyone to go out and just start shooting elk because he can. When you all talk about it is OK to kill all the spikes because the state is trying to help that don't work for me, I you don't like to be pinched with short seasons and tight regulations maybe you people should use birth control hell all the Indian's on the rez have never heard of birth control and they have not populated enough to swamp the woods like the state, the state kills 10 times the animals than the Tribe, it takes the Tribe all year and it only takes the state a few short weeks. An elk is an elk it don't mater to me if it is a bull or cow my preference is neither one I like calf's but I would be lying if I said I would pass up on a trophy bull because I wouldn't but my trophy and most of yours is quiet different, And just a reminder to all I have never had one scored or sold any. I don't know how many elk the tribe is killing out of the colock but I am positive it is not what you all make it seem like I said before just give me a guess on how many are Tribal kills and show me the pics. I am not against you non tribal members I just don't like that you think we are all the same. I just like to argue and try to keep false info out and keep the one sided people from feeding everyone a bunch of bull *censored*.
Post by: Up a Creek on July 23, 2009, 11:56:19 AM
Post by: colockumelk on July 23, 2009, 12:26:38 PM
Post by: Yak-NDN on July 23, 2009, 09:43:29 PM
This is the most recent on running elk. Also they shut down the winter range in the Kittitas because of the pressure issues. I am not hear to point fingers at who is to blame because this is a mutual problem but some of you think it a because of the Indians. The main reason most of you are against Tribal hunting is because you are just jealous. But there are some that have valid complaints and to tell you the Truth I have some issues with what some of the tribal members are doing. And for the regulations it is on the web if you chose to read it.
Post by: colockumelk on July 23, 2009, 10:56:44 PM
As for why most are against tribal hunting I will disagree with you on the jealousy. Me personally I am far more concerned with proper game management and equal opportunity. The past is the past. And discrimination is disrcrimination which is wrong no matter what. And the game laws is very discriminatory to Non-Tribal members. I like to look to the future not to the past. If you dwell on the past you are doomed to stay there. Again there is no such thing as "reverse discrimination" there is just plain and simple discrimination.
BTW I also know that you are against alot of what happens. On this site you are put in a tough position.
Post by: colockumelk on July 23, 2009, 10:59:33 PM
http://www.washingtonsportsmen.com/?q=node/78 (http://www.washingtonsportsmen.com/?q=node/78)
Post by: YellowDog on July 23, 2009, 11:18:58 PM
It seems you are playing devils advocate a little bit and I understand that is sometimes helpful to get a point accross. In this instance though, if you wanted to actually help address the problems by both the natives and the poachers you would come to the table with some support and assistance in finding common ground and trying to get the tribe to implement some changes to preserve the resource. I would bet that most of the white hunters here hate poaching by anyone and everyone, regardless of their race. There are laws that can be enforced for violators if they are caught. With tribal hunting, there is nothing we or law enforcement can do and it appears as if the tribe is unwilling to do their part to help preserve the resource. With the bull to cow ratio as far out of whack as it is in the colocum it would seem it would be easier to find a nice fat cow for ceremonial purposes yet big bull after big bull bites the dust under the guise of tradition and ceremony when it really comes down to collecting big bull elk racks. In the end, like many of the others here, I am glad you and the other native hunters are on the site to share you views. You say you don't agree with some of what goes on so it would be much appreciated if you would help the cause where there is common ground.
Post by: colockumelk on July 24, 2009, 02:54:46 PM
I would bet that most of the white hunters here hate poaching by anyone and everyone, regardless of their race. There are laws that can be enforced for violators if they are caught. With tribal hunting, there is nothing we or law enforcement can do and it appears as if the tribe is unwilling to do their part to help preserve the resource. With the bull to cow ratio as far out of whack as it is in the colocum it would seem it would be easier to find a nice fat cow for ceremonial purposes yet big bull after big bull bites the dust under the guise of tradition and ceremony when it really comes down to collecting big bull elk racks. In the end, like many of the others here, I am glad you and the other native hunters are on the site to share you views. You say you don't agree with some of what goes on so it would be much appreciated if you would help the cause where there is common ground.
:yeah:
Post by: colockumelk on July 24, 2009, 02:56:24 PM
YAK you need to be a little more understanding of our situation instead of being so defensive. You want more regulation on us. How much more regulated can it get. It's a 9 day true spike only season during an undesirable time period for harvests. What more can they give up? Where you're people on the other hand can hunt for branch bulls 365 days a year. Who has it better here? We all need to give and take. I already know that spike recruitment is a major problem but when you have Whitefoot and others each killing 6 branch bulls a year in a population that is already depleted that doesn't help either. We have regulations. Do you?
Also the WDFW has put tougher restrictions on us to improve the spike recruitment problem and the overall health of the herd. In the last 5 years they have taken the muzzle loader season away, they have made it spike only for archers and now they have made it True Spike only. All in trying to improve wildlife managment. Now my question for you and I doubt you'll actually answer this question is what has the Yakama's done to enhance the elk herd in the Colockum?
So we've given up stuff for the advancement of wildlife managment. We're sick of giving and giving while all you do is take. Maybe it's time for you guys to give up or sacrifice something to actually do something positive for the elk herd.
YAK were still waiting for an answer to the questions I asked.
Post by: Up a Creek on July 24, 2009, 04:42:36 PM
Post by: alanger on July 24, 2009, 09:15:55 PM
Yak - if the tribes would improve regulations and work with the game department to adopt reasonable harvest numbers that would improve hunting for all, threads like this would disappear. Jealousy has nothing to do with it, we just want proper game management.
Thank you......
Post by: Yak-NDN on July 24, 2009, 09:37:49 PM
Colockum you were the next post after this was put up I don't know what else to do for you. And for the last several posts I love to argue but they were to well put and not out of line I would just be an A-hole to argue with you. I think everyone understud your concerns without bashing the poor dumb Indian.Another question that keeps surfacing is about what do the Tribes do to manage game. An internet search will produce many Tribal Game and Habitat Management Plans and Programs.And for the regulations it is on the web if you chose to read it.
For example: yakama tribe hunting management returned this:
http://www.ynwildlife.org/tribalmembers.php (http://www.ynwildlife.org/tribalmembers.php)