Post by: Bushcraft on February 04, 2019, 04:01:20 PM
Post by: Birdgetter on February 04, 2019, 04:37:43 PM
Post by: huntnfmly on February 04, 2019, 04:44:20 PM
Thanks for sharing
Post by: Special T on February 04, 2019, 05:03:37 PM
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: BNAElkhntr on February 04, 2019, 05:32:33 PM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on February 04, 2019, 07:02:43 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on February 05, 2019, 08:22:20 AM
Post by: 7mmfan on February 05, 2019, 08:31:30 AM
A couple of things. They were glassing with their scopes. From a Hunter Education standpoint, that wasn't good. Overall, I liked the video. My question is why would you want to explain what we do to anti-hunters? They don't care why we do what we do. They want to end it, period. I think maybe the OP meant non-hunters, yes?
That's not necessarily true. I've had some pretty good conversations with anti-hunting folks. Mind you, they were open to having a conversation, where many absolutely are not. I don't think most left with a significant change of heart, I'm sure they are all still internally opposed to the killing of animals, but they did acknowledge that the perspective I gave them was new, and they could appreciate the process and meaning I gave to it.
You are correct that non-hunters do tend to be more open to a conversation than staunch anti's.
Post by: Bushcraft on February 05, 2019, 08:36:38 AM
A couple of things. They were glassing with their scopes. From a Hunter Education standpoint, that wasn't good. Overall, I liked the video. My question is why would you want to explain what we do to anti-hunters? They don't care why we do what we do. They want to end it, period. I think maybe the OP meant non-hunters, yes?
I had to watch it again to see what you were talking about with regard to glassing with their scopes. Sorry, but I didn't see anything wrong with the two instances where they were looking through their scopes at animals. The first occurrence had a guy clearly on the glass looking at game and then the girl looked through her scope. With the second occurrence, there is no way of knowing if he hadn't already glassed them up and was in the process of getting prepared to take the shot.
As for the anti vs. non-hunting...you're right. I meant to say non-hunters. Subject line changed. Thanks!
Post by: pianoman9701 on February 05, 2019, 08:41:56 AM
Post by: MtnMuley on February 05, 2019, 08:56:15 AM
You never glass animals with your scope. You're aiming your gun at something you may not want to destroy. That's why we spend good money on binos.
You're kidding me. So if I'm hiking along and jump 3 deer and they're running through the brush/timber/open hillside and I can see one is a big buck that I might want to shoot, that I should pull my bino's up first instead of my rifle scope?
Post by: pianoman9701 on February 05, 2019, 09:00:14 AM
Post by: MtnMuley on February 05, 2019, 09:06:14 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on February 05, 2019, 09:07:41 AM
Post by: Bushcraft on February 05, 2019, 09:07:58 AM
You never glass animals with your scope. You're aiming your gun at something you may not want to destroy. That's why we spend good money on binos.
So...when exactly does pointing a rifle with the intention to shoot an animal devolve into glassing? Is it "glassing" 1 second before taking the shot? 10 seconds? A minute? Two minutes?
What about using range finding reticles or the newer scopes with built in laser range finders?
;)
Yes, I'm going to be sitting behind my Swaros when glassing, but if a couple bucks or rams pop up in some mixed terrain where they could disappear in a matter of moments behind brush or the terrain...I'm on the gun and picking out which one I want to take, if any. Sometimes that's all the time you get.
Post by: MtnMuley on February 05, 2019, 09:08:43 AM
However, to say "You never glass animals with your scope." is plain ridiculous. :twocents:
Post by: pianoman9701 on February 05, 2019, 09:13:00 AM
Post by: Stein on February 05, 2019, 09:43:59 AM
If I wanted to talk to a non-hunter about hunting i would start with the end, my family enjoying high quality food that was ethically sourced.
Post by: Old Man Yager on February 05, 2019, 10:18:56 AM
:yeah:You never glass animals with your scope. You're aiming your gun at something you may not want to destroy. That's why we spend good money on binos.
So...when exactly does pointing a rifle with the intention to shoot an animal devolve into glassing? Is it "glassing" 1 second before taking the shot? 10 seconds? A minute? Two minutes?
What about using range finding reticles or the newer scopes with built in laser range finders?
;)
Yes, I'm going to be sitting behind my Swaros when glassing, but if a couple bucks or rams pop up in some mixed terrain where they could disappear in a matter of moments behind brush or the terrain...I'm on the gun and picking out which one I want to take, if any. Sometimes that's all the time you get.
Post by: 7mmfan on February 05, 2019, 10:25:57 AM
On the subject of non-hunters, there has been quite a bit of research on what arguments for hunting resonate with them. This movie had a ton to do with firearms which doesn't make the top of the list, or the list at all. The movie was well done, I just think it resonates with hunters much more than non-hunters, particularly those that aren't firearms owners.
If I wanted to talk to a non-hunter about hunting i would start with the end, my family enjoying high quality food that was ethically sourced.
This. :yeah: This has always been the beginning of my conversations. I fully admit that I am a meat eater and that I will always be a meat eater. Because of that, I've chosen to take responsibility for the meat that I eat as opposed to going to Safeway and buying it. I then go onto numbers of animals needed to feed people, and ethics, and quality, and etc. etc. etc... Usually works fairly well.
Post by: Cab on February 05, 2019, 10:38:21 AM
On the subject of non-hunters, there has been quite a bit of research on what arguments for hunting resonate with them. This movie had a ton to do with firearms which doesn't make the top of the list, or the list at all. The movie was well done, I just think it resonates with hunters much more than non-hunters, particularly those that aren't firearms owners.
If I wanted to talk to a non-hunter about hunting i would start with the end, my family enjoying high quality food that was ethically sourced.
This. :yeah: This has always been the beginning of my conversations. I fully admit that I am a meat eater and that I will always be a meat eater. Because of that, I've chosen to take responsibility for the meat that I eat as opposed to going to Safeway and buying it. I then go onto numbers of animals needed to feed people, and ethics, and quality, and etc. etc. etc... Usually works fairly well.
Yup and just letting them know about the taxes we pay on goods, how we fund public lands and how we are out there to enjoy the outdoors. Non-hunters are shocked when I tell them the average bow hunter in WA kills 1 elk every 10 years roughly(7-10% success rate). They always think it's so much easier than it is. I liked the video but thats because it glorifies my hobby but I don't know if it would speak to non-hunters the same way.
Post by: huntnfmly on February 05, 2019, 10:49:51 AM
Post by: Bushcraft on February 05, 2019, 11:03:37 AM
Pman is talking about basic gun safety that is taught in hunters ed and to other hunters. Say you got a hunter glassing hillside safety off sees something gets excited pulls trigger oh crap it was a person too late.or having a accidental discharge crap too lateThe fact that other people are jumping on him saying that is ridiculous is why as hunters are out worst enemies.
Except nothing like what you mentioned (which I agree is dangerously unacceptable) was shown in this clip.
And I'm pretty sure he and I know each other well enough that he knows my input was conversational, not confrontational.
Post by: huntnfmly on February 05, 2019, 11:09:35 AM
I agree that wasn't shown on the video i was just pointing out the reasoning for not doing itPman is talking about basic gun safety that is taught in hunters ed and to other hunters. Say you got a hunter glassing hillside safety off sees something gets excited pulls trigger oh crap it was a person too late.or having a accidental discharge crap too lateThe fact that other people are jumping on him saying that is ridiculous is why as hunters are out worst enemies.
Except nothing like what you mentioned (which I agree is dangerously unacceptable) was shown in this clip.
And I'm pretty sure he and I know each other well enough that he knows my input was conversational, not confrontational.
Post by: Bushcraft on February 05, 2019, 11:22:21 AM
I agree that wasn't shown on the video i was just pointing out the reasoning for not doing itPman is talking about basic gun safety that is taught in hunters ed and to other hunters. Say you got a hunter glassing hillside safety off sees something gets excited pulls trigger oh crap it was a person too late.or having a accidental discharge crap too lateThe fact that other people are jumping on him saying that is ridiculous is why as hunters are out worst enemies.
Except nothing like what you mentioned (which I agree is dangerously unacceptable) was shown in this clip.
And I'm pretty sure he and I know each other well enough that he knows my input was conversational, not confrontational.
It's all good man. :tup:
Post by: ghosthunter on February 05, 2019, 11:35:07 AM
I think it gives the impression its easy to walk out in the woods and find animals.
We all know it takes countless hours and resources much of the time to harvest a animal. And really for a lot of hunters there are more important aspects to why we do it than the harvest.
I think a video which shows the preparation, complexities, practicing and planning without a harvest at all would be more realistic in Washington at least.
Post by: Special T on February 05, 2019, 11:54:31 AM
I am not sure.
I think it gives the impression its easy to walk out in the woods and find animals.
We all know it takes countless hours and resources much of the time to harvest a animal. And really for a lot of hunters there are more important aspects to why we do it than the harvest.
I think a video which shows the preparation, complexities, practicing and planning without a harvest at all would be more realistic in Washington at least.
Harder in some states than others... you can stack a lot of doe whitetail up in many southern states.
Post by: CoryTDF on February 05, 2019, 12:03:10 PM
It's difficult for me to say it any better than William Tapply.
WHY I HUNT
By William G. Tapply
I hunt because my father hunted, and he took me with him, and so we built a bond that has endured past his death, and because his father hunted, and his father's father, and all of the fathers in my line and yours, as far back as those fathers who invented spears and axes and recorded their adventures with pictures on the walls of caves.
I hunt because it links me with the boy I used to be and with the young man my father was then.
I hunt because it keeps my passions alive and my memories fresh and my senses alert even as my beard grows gray, and because I fear that if I stopped hunting I would become an old man, and because I believe that as long as I hunt I will remain young.
I hunt because I don't buy futures or sell cars or swing deals or negotiate hostile takeovers, or litigate or prosecute or plea bargain, but because I am nevertheless, like everyone else, a predator. So I go to the woods where I belong.
I hunt because I love ruffed grouse and woodcock and pheasants and quail and ducks, and because I can imagine no more honorable way for them to die than at the hands of a respectful hunter. As Thoreau understood, ". . . the hunter is the greatest friend of the animals hunted."
I hunt because the goldenrod and milkweed glisten when the early-morning autumn sun melts the frost from the fields, and because native brook trout spawn in hidden October brooks, and because New England uplands glow crimson and orange and gold in the season of bird hunting.
I hunt because when I stumble upon overgrown cellarholes and family graveyards deep in the woods, it reminds me that I’m connected to the farmers who cleared the land and grew their crops and buried their wives and children there, and who in the process created ideal grouse and woodcock habitat, and because I like to believe that I am the first man in a century to stand in those places.
I hunt because Burton Spiller and Gorham Cross hunted, and Corey Ford and Ed Zern and Lee Wulff and Harold Blaisdell and Frank Woolner, and because they invited me to hunt with them, and because they were men of my father's generation who treated me like a man when I was a boy, and because they were writers who knew how to tell a story, and because they inspired me to try it for myself.
I hunt because Art Currier and Keith Wegener and Jason Terry and Rick Boyer and Skip Rood and Tony Brown and Marty Connolly hunt, and because these are generous and intelligent men who don’t take themselves too seriously, and who are saner than most. They love and respect the out of doors and Nature's creatures, and their friendship has made me a better man than I otherwise would be.
I hunt because the ghosts of beloved companions such as Bucky and Duke and Julie and Megan and Freebie and Waldo prance through the woods, snuffling and tail-wagging, making game and pointing, and especially Burt, my beloved Brittany, who all loved to hunt more than to eat, and whose enthusiasm and indomitable spirit will forever inspire me, and because hunting dogs make the most tolerant friends. They are smarter in many ways than we are, and they can teach us things we otherwise wouldn't understand if we’ll just pay attention.
I hunt because I believe Thoreau was right: "Fishermen, hunters, woodchoppers, and others, spending their lives in the fields and woods, in a peculiar sense a part of Nature themselves, are often in a more favorable mood for observing her, in the intervals of their pursuits, than philosophers or poets even, who approach her with expectation."
I hunt because I’m convinced, as many anthropologists argue, that prehistoric man was a hunter before he became a farmer, and because this genetic gift remains too powerful in me to resist. I do not need to hunt in order to eat, but I need to hunt to be fully who I am.
I hunt because it teaches me what it taught our earliest ancestors: the benefits of cooperation, inventiveness, division of labor, sharing, and interdependence. These are skills that bird hunters must master. Without these derivatives of hunting, our race would still be primitive. As the psychologist Erich Fromm observed, "[Humans] have been genetically programmed through hunting behavior: cooperation and sharing. Cooperation between members of the same band was a practical necessity for most hunting societies; so was the sharing of food. Since meat is perishable in most climates except that of the Arctic, it could not be preserved. Luck in hunting was not equally divided among all hunters; hence the practical outcome was that those who had luck today would share their food with those who would be lucky tomorrow. Assuming hunting behavior led to genetic changes, the conclusion would be that modern man has an innate impulse for cooperation and sharing, rather than for killing and cruelty.”
I hunt because if I didn't, I would have seen fewer eagles and ospreys, minks and beavers, foxes and bears, antelope and moose, and although I do not hunt these creatures, I do love to enter into their world and spy on them.
I hunt because I love old 20-gauge double-barrel shotguns, and scuffed leather boots with rawhide laces, and canvas vests with a few old breast feathers in their game pockets.
I hunt for the scent of Hoppe’s gun oil and camp coffee and wet bird dog and frost-softened, boot-crushed wild apples.
I hunt for the whistle of a woodcock’s wings and the sudden explosion of a ruffed grouse’s flush, for the tinkle of a dog’s bell and for the sudden, pulse-quickening silence when he locks on point, for my partner’s cry of “Mark!” when he kicks up a bird, for the distant drumming of a grouse, like a balky engine starting up, for the high predatory cry of a red-tail hawk, for the quiet gurgle of a deep-woods trout stream, for the soft soughing of the breeze in the pines, for the snoring of my companions, human and canine, in a one-room cabin, and for the soothing patter of an autumn rainstorm on a tin roof.
I hunt because it is never boring or disappointing to be out of doors with a purpose, even when no game is seen, and because taking a walk in the woods without a purpose makes everything that happens feel random and accidental and unearned.
I hunt for the keyed-up conversation, for the laying of plans and the devising of strategies, for the way memory and experience spark imagination and expectation as we drive into the low-angled sunshine on an autumn morning, for the coffee we sip from a dented old Thermos, and for the way the dogs whine and pace on the way to the day’s first cover.
And I hunt for the satisfying exhaustion after a long day in the woods, for the new stories that every hour of hunting gives us, and for the soft snarfling and dream-whimpering and twitching of sleeping dogs on the back seat as we drive home through the darkness.
I hunt because it reminds me that in Nature there is a food chain where everything eats and is, in its turn, eaten, where birth, survival, and reproduction give full meaning to life, where death is ever-present, and where the only uncertainty is the time and manner of that death. Hunting reminds me that I am integrated into that cycle, not separate from it or above it.
I hunt with a gun, and sometimes I kill. But, as the philosopher Jose Ortega y Gasset has written, "To the sportsman the death of the game is not what interests him; that is not his purpose. What interests him is everything that he had to do to achieve that death -- that is, the hunt. Therefore what was before only a means to an end is now an end in itself. Death is essential because without it there is no authentic hunting: the killing of the animal is the natural end of the hunt and that goal of hunting itself, not of the hunter. The hunter seeks this death because it is no less than the sign of reality for the whole hunting process. . . . one does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted."
I hunt to prevent myself from forgetting that everything I eat once lived, and that it is important to accept responsibility for living at the expense of another life, and that killing is half of the equation of living.
I hunt because it is hard and demanding and sometimes dangerous work, and because performing difficult work well gives me pleasure.
And I hunt because it is fun, an intense kind of artistic game, and I like to challenge myself to do it well. As Aldo Leopold wrote: "We seek contacts with nature because we derive pleasure from them . . . The duck-hunter in his blind and the operatic singer on the stage, despite the disparity of their accouterments, are doing the same thing. Each is reviving, in play, a drama formerly inherent in daily life. Both are, in the last analysis, esthetic exercises."
I hunt because, in the words, again, of Ortega y Gasset, it gives me "a vacation from the human condition," which, all by itself, is a full and satisfactory reason.
Post by: boneaddict on February 05, 2019, 12:07:55 PM
I didn't see anything wrong with their actions in the video in regards to "scoping". IMO (which can certainly be different than Pmans or anyone else)
Post by: jackelope on February 05, 2019, 12:43:39 PM
I see nothing wrong with it, and I'm very critical of "Scoping" as anyone should be.
Post by: jackelope on February 05, 2019, 12:48:27 PM
Post by: konradcountry on February 06, 2019, 11:25:59 AM
For meat-eating anti-hunters I ask them why it is wrong for me to hunt but it's ok for them to pay illegals to slaughter factory raised animals throughout the year.
I don't have to explain a damn thing to meat-eating anti-hunters. They need to explain their views to me, not the other way around.
Post by: 7mmfan on February 06, 2019, 03:40:24 PM
I have no problem with vegans and vegetarians that are against hunting. I'm also not worried about them because they are such a small group.
For meat-eating anti-hunters I ask them why it is wrong for me to hunt but it's ok for them to pay illegals to slaughter factory raised animals throughout the year.
I don't have to explain a damn thing to meat-eating anti-hunters. They need to explain their views to me, not the other way around.
Not untrue, but the meat eating anti hunter doesn’t have whole segments of society trying to take away their right to eat meat, or attacking the way they procure their meat like hunters do. The best thing we as hunters can do for ourselves and hunters in general is to have fact based and intelligent conversations with non and anti hunters to normalize what we do and stop the attack. We are often our own worst enemies and attitudes like that are part of why.
Post by: konradcountry on February 06, 2019, 05:16:19 PM
Not untrue, but the meat eating anti hunter doesn’t have whole segments of society trying to take away their right to eat meat, or attacking the way they procure their meat like hunters do. The best thing we as hunters can do for ourselves and hunters in general is to have fact based and intelligent conversations with non and anti hunters to normalize what we do and stop the attack. We are often our own worst enemies and attitudes like that are part of why.
Look if someone asks me why I enjoy hunting I don't straight tell them to f-off even if I feel like it.
I simply ask why they eat meat if they feel hunting is wrong when they are paying illegals to kill animals for them. Usually it makes them think and to this day I have yet to hear an logical explanation.
Post by: ribka on February 06, 2019, 05:48:23 PM
Stress the fact that you practice and a quick humane ethical kill is utmost importance.
I think I have swayed quite a few urban dwellers to understand the importance of hunting and fishing.
Have had quite a few express interest in hunting and fishing
Post by: 7mmfan on February 06, 2019, 05:48:58 PM
Not untrue, but the meat eating anti hunter doesn’t have whole segments of society trying to take away their right to eat meat, or attacking the way they procure their meat like hunters do. The best thing we as hunters can do for ourselves and hunters in general is to have fact based and intelligent conversations with non and anti hunters to normalize what we do and stop the attack. We are often our own worst enemies and attitudes like that are part of why.
Look if someone asks me why I enjoy hunting I don't straight tell them to f-off even if I feel like it.
I simply ask why they eat meat if they feel hunting is wrong when they are paying illegals to kill animals for them. Usually it makes them think and to this day I have yet to hear an logical explanation.
And you never will hear a logical explanation. The point is to try and do it respectfully to try and shed hunters in a better light. Better for everyone.
Post by: idaho guy on February 06, 2019, 06:04:15 PM
I have no problem with vegans and vegetarians that are against hunting. I'm also not worried about them because they are such a small group.:yeah:
For meat-eating anti-hunters I ask them why it is wrong for me to hunt but it's ok for them to pay illegals to slaughter factory raised animals throughout the year.
I don't have to explain a damn thing to meat-eating anti-hunters. They need to explain their views to me, not the other way around.
I agree they need to explain why they pay someone else to do their dirty work and then get pissed at a hunter simply getting his own meat. Animal still dies either way. You can do this without being a jerk and I think we can and should be respectful. Its a great question for a meat eating anti hunter.
Post by: Bushcraft on February 06, 2019, 09:52:43 PM
I just prepare a good meal of game or fish I harvested and give to non hunters. Have done this when I lived all over the US, Europe, Africa, Russia. I explain how healthy the meat and fish are, the fact I handled and butchered myself ( best sanitation). No hormones, antibiotics etc and the animal and fish had an exponentially better quality of life vs farm raised.
Stress the fact that you practice and a quick humane ethical kill is utmost importance.
I think I have swayed quite a few urban dwellers to understand the importance of hunting and fishing.
Have had quite a few express interest in hunting and fishing
Excellent! Same route I use and it has resulting in taking several newbies into the field as bona-fide hunters.