Post by: NOCK NOCK on February 13, 2019, 01:46:19 PM
Post by: Dhoey07 on February 13, 2019, 01:47:22 PM
Post by: woodswalker on February 13, 2019, 02:33:20 PM
Post by: time2hunt on February 13, 2019, 02:37:40 PM
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Post by: Rainier10 on February 13, 2019, 02:39:33 PM
Post by: Tracker0721 on February 13, 2019, 02:50:35 PM
Though our cougar numbers are way high! Wolves are still chasing the elk, moose and cattle. Definitely not over hunting, bet 101 has had some real low harvest numbers.
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 02:51:50 PM
(there are more cougar than wolves right now)
Post by: vandeman17 on February 13, 2019, 03:03:42 PM
Post by: jstone on February 13, 2019, 03:06:24 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on February 13, 2019, 03:12:46 PM
Post by: huntnphool on February 13, 2019, 03:18:27 PM
Our Mulies seem good
:o
Post by: Mtnwalker on February 13, 2019, 03:20:22 PM
Our Mulies seem good, if not more of them. Our whitetail i’d say is down and I’d blame it on last years winter. We had down to -28 and it was a pretty heavy winter for us. False spring had green grass growing and then we got snow for another month and some. Our last snow was April or May.
Though our cougar numbers are way high! Wolves are still chasing the elk, moose and cattle. Definitely not over hunting, bet 101 has had some real low harvest numbers.
Really..
Post by: Mudman on February 13, 2019, 04:06:25 PM
Post by: jackelope on February 13, 2019, 04:09:11 PM
Post by: Pinetar on February 13, 2019, 04:13:01 PM
Over harvest and poor management
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:yeah: Over harvest/poor management
Post by: Tbar on February 13, 2019, 04:16:41 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on February 13, 2019, 04:17:56 PM
As far as quality goes, especially for mule deer, its harvest/lack of management by WDFW. Every buck with a 3rd point gets slaughtered.
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on February 13, 2019, 04:27:42 PM
Post by: yakimarcher on February 13, 2019, 04:28:37 PM
I notice many people blaming cougars. Is there any data to support these theories? I don't doubt that the big cats might be the largest contributor, just wondering how some come up with that justification.
WDFW Mule deer plan stated that 40% of adult mule deer mortalities in the Naches MDZ are from cougars.
Post by: PolarBear on February 13, 2019, 04:30:20 PM
Over harvest and poor management:yeah:
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Post by: jackelope on February 13, 2019, 04:38:07 PM
I notice many people blaming cougars. Is there any data to support these theories? I don't doubt that the big cats might be the largest contributor, just wondering how some come up with that justification.
Mine was a guess that seemed like a logical guess. No science involved. There are a lot of cougars and they kill a lot of deer.
Since you asked, I hit the googler.
http://westernwildlife.org/cougar-outreach-project/biology-behavior/
"In North America, deer constitute about 60% of the cougar’s diet, though in Washington this percentage is much higher. Adult cougars also prey on elk, mountain goats, moose and bighorn sheep.
Adult cougars, as well as younger animals, also opportunistically prey on smaller species such as coyotes, rabbits, rodents and raccoons, as well as pets and livestock on occasion.
According to the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife, a large male cougar living in the Cascade Mountains will kill one deer or elk every 9 to 12 days, eating up to 20 pounds at a time and caching the rest for later. These caches provide food benefits for many other species."
http://westernwildlife.org/cougar-outreach-project/legal-status-management/
"Cougars are solitary, and are difficult to track and study; therefore it is difficult to accurately estimate statewide cougar populations. But based on six studies in Washington, the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife estimates the adult cougar population size is about 1,900 to 2,100 animals."
Given those numbers...if a cougar killed a deer or elk every 12 days, that would be 30.4 elk or deer per year per cougar. Take that number multiplied by 1900 and it's a crap ton of deer and elk.
Post by: jackelope on February 13, 2019, 04:39:26 PM
:yike:
Post by: bigmacc on February 13, 2019, 04:58:10 PM
Well the cause of declines can be different for certain areas, as most of us agree, my vote concerns the Methow decline, I would say over populations of the big 3(bear, cats and wolf) and mismanagement OF those predators and also the deer herd. But only 1 vote-cougar(for now), there is another that may take over in a handful of years unfortunately.
Post by: bigmacc on February 13, 2019, 05:15:10 PM
I find it hard to believe those numbers but that would equate to 57,760 elk and deer per year killed by cougars using the low end numbers.
:yike:
Like I said jackelope, we found over 2 dozen cached kills in one area in the Methow this last season, they are stealth, killing machines, needless to say that area was void of deer.
Post by: SpurInSpokane on February 13, 2019, 06:01:52 PM
I notice many people blaming cougars. Is there any data to support these theories? I don't doubt that the big cats might be the largest contributor, just wondering how some come up with that justification.
This is the real problem, I think. When populations do decline (even for a year or two, or over decades), when there is no state or unit-level population data, no one knows what causes it. Then everyone makes up a theory that sounds good. And they're probably all right to some degree. But there's no data. We have harvest numbers by unit, but no studies that get to the real questions hunters and everyone else is rightly asking.
Maybe it's a funding issue, I don't know.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 13, 2019, 06:16:03 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on February 13, 2019, 06:18:18 PM
How can you make a poll with 12 choices, but leave off the list the most important choice, MISMANAGEMENT?
Mismanagement is a combination of several of the choices. IMO
Post by: Ironhead on February 13, 2019, 06:20:03 PM
Post by: jstone on February 13, 2019, 06:28:12 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on February 13, 2019, 06:42:42 PM
Surprised that wolf has been so low, :dunno:
Combining these choices down into only 3 similar type reasons/choices, 2 of them are pretty close, the last is way behind.
It just goes to show we are all right.....and we are all wrong, all depends on each ones area of experience, and their emotions. Again Speculation on our parts, No one can prove they are right or that another is wrong.
I notice many people blaming cougars. Is there any data to support these theories? I don't doubt that the big cats might be the largest contributor, just wondering how some come up with that justification.
Data, the key word. Only very accurate data can provide some basis to a certain reason/claim. Even with that, we will never know the exact combinations, only speculate.
How can you say to much harvest when there are less hunters in the woods?
Better technology, makes for higher harvest rates. simple
Post by: JimmyHoffa on February 13, 2019, 06:51:00 PM
I see so many deer thriving in suburbia here wetside so habitat isn't as much issue as eastern or mulies. Harvest management does change the buck quality but #'s are high here except where cougars thrive. Heck wife seen roadkill cougar today on main hiway close to town. Cats have been big problem around these parts for a decade at least.:yeah:
Cougars from what I've seen. Lots of chewed up fawn skeletons and hair when out scouting in the summer. Of all the does with fawns early, not so many when seasons start...does with does and maybe a fawn and one or two previous year's yearling. Get into town and more blacktail than you count, but don't see cougars in town much.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on February 13, 2019, 06:58:30 PM
When WDFW has their fawn count with all the volunteers, they seem to do it in May/early June and then talk about how many deer must be out in the woods and how healthy the herd is. The Makah tribe did a study where they collared a bunch of fawns and tracked them over time. Cougars and bobcats were feasting well, the take by bobcats surprised me most, though.I notice many people blaming cougars. Is there any data to support these theories? I don't doubt that the big cats might be the largest contributor, just wondering how some come up with that justification.
This is the real problem, I think. When populations do decline (even for a year or two, or over decades), when there is no state or unit-level population data, no one knows what causes it. Then everyone makes up a theory that sounds good. And they're probably all right to some degree. But there's no data. We have harvest numbers by unit, but no studies that get to the real questions hunters and everyone else is rightly asking.
Maybe it's a funding issue, I don't know.
Post by: Tracker0721 on February 13, 2019, 07:02:06 PM
Post by: JBar on February 13, 2019, 07:04:45 PM
Mule deer all of the above in the areas I hunt, over run with regular season hunters, easily poached, susceptible to fires and hard winters with decreased winter habitat pushes these deer low and onto/near highways and concentrated for easy pickings by Cougars just to summarize a bit.
Blacktails cats, cats, bears and coyotes oh did I mention cats! Poaching is a problem even on private timber lands. Regular season harvest is below average the last 5 or 6 years and hunter numbers have been down.
The whitetails?? Not sure but I think the blue tongue outbreak a couple years ago took care of the majority of the whitetails in the area I hunt, no experience other than my small area.
Post by: Pinetar on February 13, 2019, 07:10:26 PM
How can you say to much harvest when there are less hunters in the woods?
Better technology, makes for higher harvest rates. simple
[/quote]
And all the Any Weapon Tags makes for higher harvest rates. If you hunt all the seasons with all three weapons and aren't too picky it isn't very hard to fill your tag.
Post by: Tbar on February 13, 2019, 07:28:41 PM
:tup: Looks like there won't be any deer or elk in a few years.I notice many people blaming cougars. Is there any data to support these theories? I don't doubt that the big cats might be the largest contributor, just wondering how some come up with that justification.
Mine was a guess that seemed like a logical guess. No science involved. There are a lot of cougars and they kill a lot of deer.
Since you asked, I hit the googler.
http://westernwildlife.org/cougar-outreach-project/biology-behavior/
"In North America, deer constitute about 60% of the cougar’s diet, though in Washington this percentage is much higher. Adult cougars also prey on elk, mountain goats, moose and bighorn sheep.
Adult cougars, as well as younger animals, also opportunistically prey on smaller species such as coyotes, rabbits, rodents and raccoons, as well as pets and livestock on occasion.
According to the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife, a large male cougar living in the Cascade Mountains will kill one deer or elk every 9 to 12 days, eating up to 20 pounds at a time and caching the rest for later. These caches provide food benefits for many other species."
http://westernwildlife.org/cougar-outreach-project/legal-status-management/
"Cougars are solitary, and are difficult to track and study; therefore it is difficult to accurately estimate statewide cougar populations. But based on six studies in Washington, the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife estimates the adult cougar population size is about 1,900 to 2,100 animals."
Given those numbers...if a cougar killed a deer or elk every 12 days, that would be 30.4 elk or deer per year per cougar. Take that number multiplied by 1900 and it's a crap ton of deer and elk.
Post by: Stein on February 13, 2019, 07:36:05 PM
Post by: elksnout on February 13, 2019, 08:01:41 PM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on February 13, 2019, 08:42:49 PM
But if I hadn't voted for habitat, I'd have voted coyotes. They do incalculable damage killing fawns and probably kill more fawns than any other animal. Here's a story of a study done in Michigan. http://www.timberwolfinformation.org/mi-experts-surprised-by-which-predator-is-no-1-killer-of-deer-in-michigans-upper-peninsula/
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 13, 2019, 09:11:51 PM
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 13, 2019, 09:20:53 PM
and injuns... :chuckle:
Post by: Tbar on February 13, 2019, 09:28:34 PM
That's a good point sitka. Habitat loss doesnt necessarily mean acreage torn up and developed. Habit loss can also mean changed in ways that no longer support animal numbers:yeah: Excellent post sitka! Preservation vs conservation as well as industrial timber practices have been a huge factor in my experience. That said industrial timber shoulders about the only habitat we have left albeit degraded.
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 09:34:12 PM
:tup: Looks like there won't be any deer or elk in a few years.I notice many people blaming cougars. Is there any data to support these theories? I don't doubt that the big cats might be the largest contributor, just wondering how some come up with that justification.
Mine was a guess that seemed like a logical guess. No science involved. There are a lot of cougars and they kill a lot of deer.
Since you asked, I hit the googler.
http://westernwildlife.org/cougar-outreach-project/biology-behavior/
"In North America, deer constitute about 60% of the cougar’s diet, though in Washington this percentage is much higher. Adult cougars also prey on elk, mountain goats, moose and bighorn sheep.
Adult cougars, as well as younger animals, also opportunistically prey on smaller species such as coyotes, rabbits, rodents and raccoons, as well as pets and livestock on occasion.
According to the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife, a large male cougar living in the Cascade Mountains will kill one deer or elk every 9 to 12 days, eating up to 20 pounds at a time and caching the rest for later. These caches provide food benefits for many other species."
http://westernwildlife.org/cougar-outreach-project/legal-status-management/
"Cougars are solitary, and are difficult to track and study; therefore it is difficult to accurately estimate statewide cougar populations. But based on six studies in Washington, the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife estimates the adult cougar population size is about 1,900 to 2,100 animals."
Given those numbers...if a cougar killed a deer or elk every 12 days, that would be 30.4 elk or deer per year per cougar. Take that number multiplied by 1900 and it's a crap ton of deer and elk.
There have been several government studies in states through the years, links have been posted in the past, but the numbers on the links jackelope posted look simlar to what other studies have shown (25 to 50 per year).
Let's say there are 3000 cougar in WA, (that is a conservative number), at 30.4 the total is 91,200 animals per year. Even if cougar were only eating half that many, it would still be 45,600.
Now consider that there might be as many as 4000 or more (they don't know for sure how many) cougar in WA!
Post by: huntnnw on February 13, 2019, 09:57:39 PM
Post by: huntnnw on February 13, 2019, 09:58:54 PM
Our Mulies seem good
:o
wow!
Post by: Mudman on February 13, 2019, 10:05:42 PM
Post by: bearpaw on February 13, 2019, 10:25:04 PM
After this winter I don't think things will improve?
I know its being tough on the wetside, but in the NE on an overall basis we've had a mild winter until this last week, which is actually more normal winter weather. What really makes a difference is what happens in March and April! Fingers crossed!
Post by: huntnnw on February 13, 2019, 10:37:12 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 14, 2019, 05:45:26 AM
Post by: Roperfive88 on February 14, 2019, 06:07:51 AM
Post by: MtnMuley on February 14, 2019, 07:03:17 AM
How can you make a poll with 12 choices, but leave off the list the most important choice, MISMANAGEMENT?
Mismanagement is a combination of several of the choices. IMO
Sure looks to me like many of the members are saying mismanagement, but hey, this is your big poll, so be stubborn. I could care less.
Post by: nwwanderer on February 14, 2019, 07:23:25 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on February 14, 2019, 07:33:40 AM
There is an "other" category - and folks can then explain what their observations are. Just saying "mismanagement" is about the most useless thing one could select if there is not a more elaborate description of what that means. :rolleyes:How can you make a poll with 12 choices, but leave off the list the most important choice, MISMANAGEMENT?
Mismanagement is a combination of several of the choices. IMO
Sure looks to me like many of the members are saying mismanagement, but hey, this is your big poll, so be stubborn. I could care less.
Post by: Rainier10 on February 14, 2019, 07:34:07 AM
Seems to me "mismanagement" is a pretty broad term and the options he has given are very specific.How can you make a poll with 12 choices, but leave off the list the most important choice, MISMANAGEMENT?
Mismanagement is a combination of several of the choices. IMO
Sure looks to me like many of the members are saying mismanagement, but hey, this is your big poll, so be stubborn. I could care less.
Would you say that too many cougars is mismanagement? Overharvest is mismanagement? Uncontrolled wolves is mismanagement? Not enough enforcement to stop poaching is mismanagement? Legal harvest is mismanagement? Not buying enough habitat is mismanagement?
I would say all of those options could fall under "mismanagement".
He did give the option of "other... do tell".
It would certainly be nice to know what your definition of "mismanagement" is. Seems pretty broad to me and could mean different things to everyone.
I believe the question by the OP was to choose one reason that was creating the decline in the deer herd.
The question wasn't "pick one word that covers the most options on my list".
Post by: NOCK NOCK on February 14, 2019, 07:42:07 AM
How can you make a poll with 12 choices, but leave off the list the most important choice, MISMANAGEMENT?
Mismanagement is a combination of several of the choices. IMO
Sure looks to me like many of the members are saying mismanagement, but hey, this is your big poll, so be stubborn. I could care less.
You are correct, It is my poll, and has provided some great discussion. If you don't like it you are welcome to not partake. :rolleyes:
Post by: hunter399 on February 14, 2019, 08:45:41 AM
Should be all of the above option.
The definition of mismanagement is having seasonal surplus animals for us hunters to hunt.
If you don't have surplus animals every year then you have declines in herds it's not rocket science.Then you have hunters that don't want any change in seasons ect. Without scientific data to support it.But WDFW drags there feet so much on there studies ,herd counts ,all that .That many years of damage to herds have been done .We go from having good deer seasons to very limited hunting opportunity makes hunters mad.What's happening out in the woods and what's on paper is not always the same.
Post by: rainshadow1 on February 14, 2019, 08:59:21 AM
. . . . . . . . . . THINK ABOUT THAT . . . . . . . . . .
None of the instructors agreed with it, I talked to them, but the wdfw REQUIRED them to teach it that way.
More here than meets the eye, folks.
Post by: gaddy on February 14, 2019, 09:05:01 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on February 14, 2019, 09:09:45 AM
I took a hunter's safety class with my stepkids a year and a half ago. (And with my two sons about 6 years ago. And on my own 35 years ago... yeesh!) Anyway, the WDFW is requiring the instructors to tell the classes that predators aren't able to make a significant impact on the prey species populations.Can you provide some documentation and context to this? I don't believe what you are describing is possibly accurate and/or complete...effects of predators on wildlife has been studied for centuries, and while its by no means always the cause of declines there are several studies where it is...so I think the instructors probably misunderstood something.
. . . . . . . . . . THINK ABOUT THAT . . . . . . . . . .
None of the instructors agreed with it, I talked to them, but the wdfw REQUIRED them to teach it that way.
More here than meets the eye, folks.
Post by: Rainier10 on February 14, 2019, 09:36:20 AM
:yeah:I took a hunter's safety class with my stepkids a year and a half ago. (And with my two sons about 6 years ago. And on my own 35 years ago... yeesh!) Anyway, the WDFW is requiring the instructors to tell the classes that predators aren't able to make a significant impact on the prey species populations.Can you provide some documentation and context to this? I don't believe what you are describing is possibly accurate and/or complete...effects of predators on wildlife has been studied for centuries, and while its by no means always the cause of declines there are several studies where it is...so I think the instructors probably misunderstood something.
. . . . . . . . . . THINK ABOUT THAT . . . . . . . . . .
None of the instructors agreed with it, I talked to them, but the wdfw REQUIRED them to teach it that way.
More here than meets the eye, folks.
I would love to hear more about this "requirement". I teach hunter ed and I have not been given the direction you are describing. We use the water bucket pic in Hunter399's post. The bucket is the "carrying capacity" of the land. All of the holes are things that lower population. Predators and hunters create one of those holes that affect population and keep it below capacity. If you are over capacity you damage the habitat.
Post by: The Marquis on February 14, 2019, 10:48:51 AM
The deer herds around me are doing good.
I heard that from the Undertaker, Papa Shango, The Missing Link, Doink The Clown, The Berzerker, Demolition Ax, Demolition Smash and the Ultimate Warrior as well.
Post by: rainshadow1 on February 14, 2019, 10:59:37 AM
Post by: fireweed on February 14, 2019, 11:10:28 AM
Public land stopped logging, puts out all the small westside fires, and stopped broadcast burning. This equals lots of thick trees and little feed.
Private land kept logging but stopped slash burning and turned to spraying. This lead to lots of openings, but little good deer food.
Most deer now are seen in yards eating rose bushes and green beans.
Post by: Dhoey07 on February 14, 2019, 11:18:49 AM
The deer herds around me are doing good.
I heard that from the Undertaker, Papa Shango, The Missing Link, Doink The Clown, The Berzerker, Demolition Ax, Demolition Smash and the Ultimate Warrior as well.
^^^^ Someone gets it :chuckle: :chuckle:
But yeah, around Spokane, the deer herds are doing ok. I can't speak for the NE or SE corners though.
Post by: jackelope on February 14, 2019, 11:24:21 AM
:yeah:I took a hunter's safety class with my stepkids a year and a half ago. (And with my two sons about 6 years ago. And on my own 35 years ago... yeesh!) Anyway, the WDFW is requiring the instructors to tell the classes that predators aren't able to make a significant impact on the prey species populations.Can you provide some documentation and context to this? I don't believe what you are describing is possibly accurate and/or complete...effects of predators on wildlife has been studied for centuries, and while its by no means always the cause of declines there are several studies where it is...so I think the instructors probably misunderstood something.
. . . . . . . . . . THINK ABOUT THAT . . . . . . . . . .
None of the instructors agreed with it, I talked to them, but the wdfw REQUIRED them to teach it that way.
More here than meets the eye, folks.
I would love to hear more about this "requirement". I teach hunter ed and I have not been given the direction you are describing. We use the water bucket pic in Hunter399's post. The bucket is the "carrying capacity" of the land. All of the holes are things that lower population. Predators and hunters create one of those holes that affect population and keep it below capacity. If you are over capacity you damage the habitat.
@pianoman9701
@timberfaller
You guys ever hear of this requirement?
Post by: timberfaller on February 14, 2019, 11:45:17 AM
Post by: Bob33 on February 14, 2019, 11:45:28 AM
It's never been communicated to me that it's a requirement and I've been teaching a long time. The study materials do suggest that predator management is not the best way to permanently increase wildlife populations. We teach that predators should be managed.:yeah:I took a hunter's safety class with my stepkids a year and a half ago. (And with my two sons about 6 years ago. And on my own 35 years ago... yeesh!) Anyway, the WDFW is requiring the instructors to tell the classes that predators aren't able to make a significant impact on the prey species populations.Can you provide some documentation and context to this? I don't believe what you are describing is possibly accurate and/or complete...effects of predators on wildlife has been studied for centuries, and while its by no means always the cause of declines there are several studies where it is...so I think the instructors probably misunderstood something.
. . . . . . . . . . THINK ABOUT THAT . . . . . . . . . .
None of the instructors agreed with it, I talked to them, but the wdfw REQUIRED them to teach it that way.
More here than meets the eye, folks.
I would love to hear more about this "requirement". I teach hunter ed and I have not been given the direction you are describing. We use the water bucket pic in Hunter399's post. The bucket is the "carrying capacity" of the land. All of the holes are things that lower population. Predators and hunters create one of those holes that affect population and keep it below capacity. If you are over capacity you damage the habitat.
@pianoman9701
@timberfaller
You guys ever hear of this requirement?
Post by: MtnMuley on February 14, 2019, 11:48:32 AM
There is an "other" category - and folks can then explain what their observations are. Just saying "mismanagement" is about the most useless thing one could select if there is not a more elaborate description of what that means. :rolleyes:How can you make a poll with 12 choices, but leave off the list the most important choice, MISMANAGEMENT?
Mismanagement is a combination of several of the choices. IMO
Sure looks to me like many of the members are saying mismanagement, but hey, this is your big poll, so be stubborn. I could care less.
Mismanagement is very simple. We should meet up for coffee sometime. I'd happily drive down south. :tup:
Post by: timberfaller on February 14, 2019, 11:50:46 AM
Bob33's quote!
Bingo, that is what I was trying to remember. :tup:
As instructor's we have "requirements" that need to be said for the benefit of the students. But I've never been in a class where "other" explanations weren't given out! :chuckle:
After class discussions get very interesting!!
Post by: pianoman9701 on February 14, 2019, 11:57:53 AM
:yeah:I took a hunter's safety class with my stepkids a year and a half ago. (And with my two sons about 6 years ago. And on my own 35 years ago... yeesh!) Anyway, the WDFW is requiring the instructors to tell the classes that predators aren't able to make a significant impact on the prey species populations.Can you provide some documentation and context to this? I don't believe what you are describing is possibly accurate and/or complete...effects of predators on wildlife has been studied for centuries, and while its by no means always the cause of declines there are several studies where it is...so I think the instructors probably misunderstood something.
. . . . . . . . . . THINK ABOUT THAT . . . . . . . . . .
None of the instructors agreed with it, I talked to them, but the wdfw REQUIRED them to teach it that way.
More here than meets the eye, folks.
I would love to hear more about this "requirement". I teach hunter ed and I have not been given the direction you are describing. We use the water bucket pic in Hunter399's post. The bucket is the "carrying capacity" of the land. All of the holes are things that lower population. Predators and hunters create one of those holes that affect population and keep it below capacity. If you are over capacity you damage the habitat.
@pianoman9701
@timberfaller
You guys ever hear of this requirement?
Nope, not true. An instructor with an agenda may have added some of his/her own ideas, but this is definitely not a requirement......Think About That............
Post by: jackelope on February 14, 2019, 11:58:40 AM
Jackelope, PM sent.
Thank you, sir!
Post by: pianoman9701 on February 14, 2019, 12:03:02 PM
Post by: Hockey21 on February 14, 2019, 12:20:20 PM
Post by: Bunny Thumper on February 14, 2019, 12:38:37 PM
Post by: headshot5 on February 14, 2019, 12:49:41 PM
Quote
On the West side it is simple, HERBICIDES. First started seeing them in the mid. 90's in 568. Night and day difference in the clear cuts I was hunting at the time and a slow decline in populations ever since. Private timber and state lands have little food for animals the first five + years after spraying. It's hard to grow populations with no groceries, these clear cuts might as well be Wall Mart parking lots.
Don't forget the deer hair loss syndrome..., which is not herbicide related.
Post by: backcountry55 on February 14, 2019, 12:55:59 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on February 14, 2019, 01:04:44 PM
:yeah: The bold is true and that part could be viewed as required to go over in class since the best way to increase wildlife populations is to improve the habitat.It's never been communicated to me that it's a requirement and I've been teaching a long time. The study materials do suggest that predator management is not the best way to permanently increase wildlife populations. We teach that predators should be managed.:yeah:I took a hunter's safety class with my stepkids a year and a half ago. (And with my two sons about 6 years ago. And on my own 35 years ago... yeesh!) Anyway, the WDFW is requiring the instructors to tell the classes that predators aren't able to make a significant impact on the prey species populations.Can you provide some documentation and context to this? I don't believe what you are describing is possibly accurate and/or complete...effects of predators on wildlife has been studied for centuries, and while its by no means always the cause of declines there are several studies where it is...so I think the instructors probably misunderstood something.
. . . . . . . . . . THINK ABOUT THAT . . . . . . . . . .
None of the instructors agreed with it, I talked to them, but the wdfw REQUIRED them to teach it that way.
More here than meets the eye, folks.
I would love to hear more about this "requirement". I teach hunter ed and I have not been given the direction you are describing. We use the water bucket pic in Hunter399's post. The bucket is the "carrying capacity" of the land. All of the holes are things that lower population. Predators and hunters create one of those holes that affect population and keep it below capacity. If you are over capacity you damage the habitat.
@pianoman9701
@timberfaller
You guys ever hear of this requirement?
Playing the pass it on game I could see how the message relayed that "reducing predators isn't the best way to increase wildlife populations, the best way to increase them is by improving the habitat" could get changed to "don't talk about reducing predators at all just focus on the best way to increase wildlife populations is to improve the habitat" and then it gets changed to "don't talk about reducing predators". Something gets lost each time the message gets passed on and when it gets to the last guy it isn't the true message.
Sorry for the sidebar to the thread.
Post by: Rainier10 on February 14, 2019, 01:08:29 PM
There are multiple issues on the west side and some similar to the east side but not the same. Cats are an issue on both sides but herbicides aren't.
Great topic and good to see so many passionate about what they think the issues are.
Post by: Jake Dogfish on February 14, 2019, 01:14:09 PM
Post by: The scout on February 14, 2019, 01:40:18 PM
Post by: Matth on February 14, 2019, 01:56:01 PM
:yeah: The bold is true and that part could be viewed as required to go over in class since the best way to increase wildlife populations is to improve the habitat.It's never been communicated to me that it's a requirement and I've been teaching a long time. The study materials do suggest that predator management is not the best way to permanently increase wildlife populations. We teach that predators should be managed.:yeah:I took a hunter's safety class with my stepkids a year and a half ago. (And with my two sons about 6 years ago. And on my own 35 years ago... yeesh!) Anyway, the WDFW is requiring the instructors to tell the classes that predators aren't able to make a significant impact on the prey species populations.Can you provide some documentation and context to this? I don't believe what you are describing is possibly accurate and/or complete...effects of predators on wildlife has been studied for centuries, and while its by no means always the cause of declines there are several studies where it is...so I think the instructors probably misunderstood something.
. . . . . . . . . . THINK ABOUT THAT . . . . . . . . . .
None of the instructors agreed with it, I talked to them, but the wdfw REQUIRED them to teach it that way.
More here than meets the eye, folks.
I would love to hear more about this "requirement". I teach hunter ed and I have not been given the direction you are describing. We use the water bucket pic in Hunter399's post. The bucket is the "carrying capacity" of the land. All of the holes are things that lower population. Predators and hunters create one of those holes that affect population and keep it below capacity. If you are over capacity you damage the habitat.
@pianoman9701
@timberfaller
You guys ever hear of this requirement?
Playing the pass it on game I could see how the message relayed that "reducing predators isn't the best way to increase wildlife populations, the best way to increase them is by improving the habitat" could get changed to "don't talk about reducing predators at all just focus on the best way to increase wildlife populations is to improve the habitat" and then it gets changed to "don't talk about reducing predators". Something gets lost each time the message gets passed on and when it gets to the last guy it isn't the true message.
Sorry for the sidebar to the thread.
The same was communicated at my sons hunters ed class last fall, and the instructor was quickly corrected by several parents, that they are not the only contributing factor. On a side note the instructor also told us to cover up all big game while in transport so as not to alarm the non hunting public, that also raised a few eye brows. All done now back on track.
Post by: huntnphool on February 14, 2019, 02:47:24 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on February 14, 2019, 04:40:09 PM
I wouldn't say there is one main reason why the deer herds are the shape they are in. Its the perfect storm of all that's in the poll. I would say it started with taking away running dogs after cougars and baiting bears, witch took awhile to really take a major effect on herds. I also think poaching is happening more than ever just because people are having a harder time filling tags during season. I also think tribal hunting is extremely carried away. Then you throw wolves, fires , winter kill. I think we could recover from any one individual thing on the poll but not put all together. I think the thing that gets me is every single thing is preventable. this is just my :twocents: so take it easy
BINGO.
It is a combination of them all, which I believe most on here agree on that. The point of the poll was to show that, and that its not just a predator problem.
Compare 2 of the biggest herds, Methow & Entiat. Both herds are in heavy decline, both areas have had massive fires, both get heavy hunting pressure, both get poaching, cougars and bears have always existed in both, etc.,....the only big difference is wolves. Which leads us to many folks putting all the decline on wolves(by what is posted on HW all the time) So why is the Entiat herd in such decline? Cant pin that on wolves.
The poll was designed to be reduced to 3 main categories,
A. Predators(wolf-cat-bear-yote-etc.)
B. Human kill (Legal-illegal-overharvest-vehicle strikes)
c. Living conditions (Fires-winter kill- disease-habitat loss)
@MtnMuley, Do I know you? Or have I ticked you off? I dont believe either is true, so just curious why your so down on me :dunno: "this is your big poll, so be stubborn. I could care less."
I've got thick skin so no worries, just like to be friendly with all. :hello:
And others were correct in sharing my view, mismanagement is a combination of most all of the choices, (predator quotas, season setting/length, tribal harvest, let it burn/or not with fires, excessive doe/cow permits, chemical spraying, habitat to homes, etc, etc, etc, the list is endless, not simple.
There really should be three separate polls, one for each blacktail, muley and whitetail. :twocents:
Yea I thought about that, but just went with it.
Post by: Goshawk on February 14, 2019, 04:52:48 PM
Around here, I'd have to say hair loss is the main culprit. The local numbers never recovered after that hard hit, and of course the WDFW has done NOTHING to help the population recover.
Second is over harvesting. There's just no biological reason to still have doe tags in an area that was so hard hit by hair loss.
Third is a tie between poaching and vehicle collisions. The fawns really take a bad hit come spring on the local roads. Suppressors have made popping a deer at night very easy to get away with.
Post by: Jonathan_S on February 14, 2019, 06:12:25 PM
It's never as simple as a one reason poll.
Around here, I'd have to say hair loss is the main culprit. The local numbers never recovered after that hard hit, and of course the WDFW has done NOTHING to help the population recover.
Second is over harvesting. There's just no biological reason to still have doe tags in an area that was so hard hit by hair loss.
Third is a tie between poaching and vehicle collisions. The fawns really take a bad hit come spring on the local roads. Suppressors have made popping a deer at night very easy to get away with.
Ya'll got plenty of lions down there
Post by: The scout on February 14, 2019, 07:25:01 PM
I wouldn't say there is one main reason why the deer herds are the shape they are in. Its the perfect storm of all that's in the poll. I would say it started with taking away running dogs after cougars and baiting bears, witch took awhile to really take a major effect on herds. I also think poaching is happening more than ever just because people are having a harder time filling tags during season. I also think tribal hunting is extremely carried away. Then you throw wolves, fires , winter kill. I think we could recover from any one individual thing on the poll but not put all together. I think the thing that gets me is every single thing is preventable. this is just my :twocents: so take it easy
BINGO.
It is a combination of them all, which I believe most on here agree on that. The point of the poll was to show that, and that its not just a predator problem.
Compare 2 of the biggest herds, Methow & Entiat. Both herds are in heavy decline, both areas have had massive fires, both get heavy hunting pressure, both get poaching, cougars and bears have always existed in both, etc.,....the only big difference is wolves. Which leads us to many folks putting all the decline on wolves(by what is posted on HW all the time) So why is the Entiat herd in such decline? Cant pin that on wolves.
The poll was designed to be reduced to 3 main categories,
A. Predators(wolf-cat-bear-yote-etc.)
B. Human kill (Legal-illegal-overharvest-vehicle strikes)
c. Living conditions (Fires-winter kill- disease-habitat loss)
@MtnMuley, Do I know you? Or have I ticked you off? I dont believe either is true, so just curious why your so down on me :dunno: "this is your big poll, so be stubborn. I could care less."
I've got thick skin so no worries, just like to be friendly with all. :hello:
And others were correct in sharing my view, mismanagement is a combination of most all of the choices, (predator quotas, season setting/length, tribal harvest, let it burn/or not with fires, excessive doe/cow permits, chemical spraying, habitat to homes, etc, etc, etc, the list is endless, not simple.There really should be three separate polls, one for each blacktail, muley and whitetail. :twocents:
Yea I thought about that, but just went with it.
I think there are more cats up the Entiat than there ever had been before. I don’t remember the last time I went hiking around up there and didn’t see a cat kill. They have always been there but seems like there numbers are higher than ever.
Post by: time2hunt on February 14, 2019, 08:32:25 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Turner89 on February 14, 2019, 09:19:00 PM
I voted habitat loss because here on the Olympic Peninsula, changes in logging and how tree farms are managed has really affected the herds here. For Starters, The National Forest Doesn't get much logging compared to the past so There isn't as much feed as there was say back in the 70s and 80s. But another biggie is the commercial tree farms have turned into mono culture deserts. Growing up in the 60s and 70s the forests were a good mix of hardwood and softwoods. You could still find a good alder patch or big leaf maple stand and anyone who's hunted blacktails knows how much they love alder/fern/salmonberry/maple patches. The mixed forests of those days were much better hunting than the all fir forests of today. The clearcuts are still good as food producers when they aren't being sprayed with roundup equivalent to kill the hardwoods sprouting up, but once they get to an age that strangles out most other plants, they aren't good for much except bedding areas.:yeah:
But if I hadn't voted for habitat, I'd have voted coyotes. They do incalculable damage killing fawns and probably kill more fawns than any other animal. Here's a story of a study done in Michigan. http://www.timberwolfinformation.org/mi-experts-surprised-by-which-predator-is-no-1-killer-of-deer-in-michigans-upper-peninsula/
I feel that the spraying is really affecting the blacktail in my area. I'm fortunate that all the area I hunt is state and private timber co land. They have done alot of logging over the last 10 years, which should be a very good thing, but the spraying is destroying all the good deer food. (I get why they do it, and have no problem with them taking care of there crop.)
My second reason for BT decline in my area is coyotes. They are out of control over here, and they are harder to hunt on the west side.
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on February 15, 2019, 05:09:44 PM
Predator persecution and logging both lead to range expansions and increases in numerical abundance, with mule deer numbers reaching unprecedented abundance in the 1940s-1960s. Rangewide, they have declined with predator protections and habitat loss as logged forests regrew unmanaged into dense, doghair stands with little forage. Now, we have a complex relationship with fire, which provides both benefits and impacts that change over time. Winter range fires tend to have longterm harmful impacts, while stand-replacing forest fires can have immediate benefits if moderate intensity, or longterm negative impacts if high intensity but transitioning over several years or even decades into beneficial habitat.
The outlook for migratory mule deer on National Forests and BLM, as well as state winter ranges, is not good. On the flip side, nonmigratory mule deer continue to fare well in low elevation areas where they didn't exist in abundance 100-150 years ago, the low elevation basins between mountain ranges: Columbia Basin here in WA, eastern plains of Wyoming, Montana, Colorado and the Dakotas, Snake River plains, and most areas where native prairie and shrubsteppe have been converted to agriculture.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on February 15, 2019, 05:37:21 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 15, 2019, 06:43:20 PM
Post by: GoldenRing270 on February 15, 2019, 07:16:16 PM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on February 16, 2019, 09:53:30 AM
I hunted a few years along the Palouse River on a large wheat farm between St. John and Endicott. The owner told me when he was growing up, it was just about all mule deer in the area and a pretty big herd. Now his farm is overrun with whitetails and there aren't many mule deer left.
Post by: bearpaw on February 16, 2019, 10:38:38 AM
Post by: dilleytech on February 17, 2019, 09:09:02 AM
That’s 7 cougars killed “that I know of” within about 40 square miles. I was told by the bio there usually will be one tom and about 5 females in twice that area size. So how many are still alive?
Post by: bigmacc on February 17, 2019, 09:45:09 AM
Post by: cryder on February 20, 2019, 12:32:48 AM
Post by: bowhunterforever on February 20, 2019, 12:46:38 AM
Post by: Romulus1297 on February 20, 2019, 12:48:28 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 20, 2019, 04:56:59 AM
Post by: Ironhead on February 20, 2019, 05:44:40 AM
Post by: MtnMuley on February 20, 2019, 07:54:17 AM
I posted OTC Tags and new technology earlier in the post. But in the last 5 years I will say its been Habitat loss in the winter grounds by FIRE and winterkill from 2015 and 2016. Predators are not helping them either.
Habitat loss, or adding 1500 more does tags after the Carlton Complex Fire?
Post by: huntnphool on February 20, 2019, 08:23:22 AM
I posted OTC Tags and new technology earlier in the post. But in the last 5 years I will say its been Habitat loss in the winter grounds by FIRE and winterkill from 2015 and 2016. Predators are not helping them either.
Habitat loss, or adding 1500 more does tags after the Carlton Complex Fire?
That was a stroke of genius wasn't it!........Still SMH
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on February 20, 2019, 03:12:03 PM
So they are adapting to the changing environment. Do you feel the migratory herds will adapt to some extent?I think climate change in the Cascades will actually be beneficial for the migratory mule deer herds. So much of the lowest elevation winter range has been lost or converted. Warmer winters with less snow and more rain will increase the winter range available on the national forest lands.
Post by: jstone on February 20, 2019, 05:04:12 PM
Post by: Ironhead on February 20, 2019, 05:26:22 PM
They did the same thing in the Swakane back in the late 80's or early 90's after the big Swakane fire. First they gave out around 700 Doe Permits , then they decided that every body with a Deer tag could shoot a Doe. They killed around 1500 to 2000 (probably more). The difference was, that the Swakane herd was HEALTHY at the time , UNLIKE the Methow is now.I posted OTC Tags and new technology earlier in the post. But in the last 5 years I will say its been Habitat loss in the winter grounds by FIRE and winterkill from 2015 and 2016. Predators are not helping them either.
Habitat loss, or adding 1500 more does tags after the Carlton Complex Fire?
Post by: KFhunter on February 20, 2019, 05:59:00 PM
Post by: bowhunterforever on February 20, 2019, 07:07:06 PM
put me down 1-4 since I could only select one option I didn't vote:yeah: that would have been my pick too but cant
Post by: NOCK NOCK on February 20, 2019, 08:50:43 PM
If every voter checked every box, we wouldn't learn anything that we don't already know. Every reason in the poll has its part in the declining herd. IMO
Post by: Rainier10 on February 21, 2019, 02:52:22 PM
Post by: jstone on February 21, 2019, 02:58:56 PM
That’s the reason
Post by: KFhunter on February 21, 2019, 03:11:36 PM
Politics
That’s the reason
Politics got nothing to do with my 1-4 choice, I chose those because they're the top 4 and they work in concert to kill the deer.
Which kills more in any given area is extremely regional...a mile or two could be the difference between a bear killing more, or wolves, or cougar...or yotes!
If I narrowed it down to my back yard (literally) its a bear for sure killing the fawns in the tall grass riparian area where they drop fawns every spring, it's nocturnal and I haven't been able to kill him yet :bash: but I've heard the fawns squealing at night and seen the aftermath.
1 mile away and its Cougar by far as I get into the rocky scrub, they're killing the hell out of a small mule deer herd :bash:
this fall I counted 1 mule doe left all by herself and she had a mt lion stalking her, I interrupted the stalk when I got between the cat and doe some 75 feet apart, cat snarled and hissed at me.
5 miles away and its wolves by far as I get into the higher up areas in NF, 2 weeks of cutting sign for cougar hunting and 99% of the tracks I see are wolf. They're killing the deer out of recently logged areas, Elk too and moose, but this is a deer poll.
'
So ya, 1-4 please.
Post by: PA BEN on April 21, 2019, 06:48:43 AM
Post by: STARVATION on April 22, 2019, 08:13:47 PM
Those that voted for "habitat loss" are eating to much liberal pie.
Post by: fowl smacker on April 22, 2019, 08:22:29 PM
Post by: dvolmer on April 23, 2019, 07:41:48 AM
put me down 1-4 since I could only select one option I didn't vote
Where is the out of control Native harvest option?
Post by: buckfvr on April 23, 2019, 08:58:40 AM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on April 23, 2019, 11:08:58 AM
put me down 1-4 since I could only select one option I didn't vote
Where is the out of control Native harvest option?
I considered that as “overharvest”. Pretty sure that’s the best description.
Post by: wolfbait on May 04, 2019, 08:45:55 AM
You need to have a line that just says predators. I chose cougars, but bears, coyotes and wolves take their fair share.
Add wolves to the mix, then lie about the increase and impact, throw in a pile of doe tags at every opportunity and WDFW comes out to be the biggest predator of all...
Post by: polishstunner on May 05, 2019, 09:01:38 AM
Post by: D Coates on May 14, 2019, 11:38:28 AM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on May 14, 2019, 07:29:45 PM
Several here do not know more then the area they hunt. I read one that said the mule deer are in good shape? As a overall in wa that comment could not be more wrong. Black tails are in the better shape when compared to mule deer that at this time should not even have a season in wa with white tail not far behind. Fires causeing over harvest out of fear of land owner complaints, Not allowing control of predators esp cougars and severally mis management by wa state fish and game are the top reason as I see it for the decline in not only our deer but elk as well. You could go on and on adding to this list and all of it compounds the situation but as I see it these are topping the list. If you do not believe we have a problem you really should get out more.
FYI, Read the question again, What is the 1 main reason in YOUR area. Yes we all know there are a multitude of reasons.....thats not what this poll is about/for
Post by: Skyvalhunter on May 14, 2019, 07:40:05 PM
Post by: X-Force on May 14, 2019, 08:31:07 PM
I wonder where the hunters that say habitat loss as the main reason what areas they are hunting.
On the west side lack of forestry practices have diminished a lot of public land black tail habitat and on the east side development, roads, wind mills, all on winter ground.
Post by: idahohuntr on May 14, 2019, 09:46:53 PM
:yeah:I wonder where the hunters that say habitat loss as the main reason what areas they are hunting.
On the west side lack of forestry practices have diminished a lot of public land black tail habitat and on the east side development, roads, wind mills, all on winter ground.
Lets not forget lack of forest management and logging on the east side, fires on winter range, loss of CRP acres, spread of invasive weeds, increased human disturbance on critical winter range...and probably a whole lot more.
We can all argue about the "primary" factor in any given area...but is there anywhere in the state where anyone can say with a straight face the habitat conditions are improving on a sizable scale?
Habitat degradation and loss is a major factor influencing wildlife abundance all across the Western US. Predator impacts can be temporary (and cyclical)...usually once habitat is degraded or lost...its permanent...which means a permanent reduction in the carrying capacity and herd size. :twocents:
Post by: KFhunter on May 14, 2019, 09:56:26 PM
:yeah:I wonder where the hunters that say habitat loss as the main reason what areas they are hunting.
On the west side lack of forestry practices have diminished a lot of public land black tail habitat and on the east side development, roads, wind mills, all on winter ground.
Lets not forget lack of forest management and logging on the east side, fires on winter range, loss of CRP acres, spread of invasive weeds, increased human disturbance on critical winter range...and probably a whole lot more.
We can all argue about the "primary" factor in any given area...but is there anywhere in the state where anyone can say with a straight face the habitat conditions are improving on a sizable scale?
Habitat degradation and loss is a major factor influencing wildlife abundance all across the Western US. Predator impacts can be temporary (and cyclical)...usually once habitat is degraded or lost...its permanent...which means a permanent reduction in the carrying capacity and herd size. :twocents:
Ya, there's a ton of logging going on with federal lands, state too, but national forest logging is going big now. There's also a lot of prescribed burning going on, lot more than previous years.
It's been a long time since there was a forest fire in May that made my eyes water, but the smoke was pretty thick couple days ago from all the burning.
So yes, I think habitat is being improved and I think forest managers are shifting gears and doing more to reduce fuel load in the forest, which is also good habitat improvement. it's creating mixed forest habitat, some burned, some logged, some older forest, some thinned..little something for everyone.
Also there's a lot of stuff going on to plant native grasses and create more open meadows in the woods (which also reduces fire load) but creates more diverse habitat. We need more meadows for sure .
I've never been one to think our current habitat is the limiting factor right now in our ungulate population, but I've always been in favor of improving habitat, and that seems to be getting done. It can only help.
Post by: msg on June 02, 2019, 09:18:44 AM
Post by: AL WORRELLS KID on June 05, 2019, 10:51:36 AM
How can you make a poll with 12 choices, but leave off the list the most important choice, MISMANAGEMENT?
My vote Too, "Other"......Lack of Management, starting at the Top........ (Hard to blame the Critter's, for stupid human mistakes.) :bdid:
Doug
Post by: stlusn30-06 on June 05, 2019, 02:41:19 PM
I find it hard to believe those numbers but that would equate to 57,760 elk and deer per year killed by cougars using the low end numbers.
:yike:
Cougars are likely a significant contributor based on the information from the WDFW and the resources you shared. But the article you quoted says "a large male living in the Cascade Mountains", not "all cougars in Washington". Unless cougar biology has changed some, I'm doubting all cougars in Washington are large males. Details matter. Now there's fully two posts in this thread from folks with juice stating Cougars kill 50-100,000 Deer/Elk a year based on a bad reading. There are only ~300,000 deer total in the state. Suggesting cougars kill off 33+% of WA deer every single year is a stretch. Need to find out how many large males living in the Cascade Mountains there are to come up with the number you're looking for.
Post by: bearpaw on June 05, 2019, 05:33:04 PM
I find it hard to believe those numbers but that would equate to 57,760 elk and deer per year killed by cougars using the low end numbers.
:yike:
Cougars are likely a significant contributor based on the information from the WDFW and the resources you shared. But the article you quoted says "a large male living in the Cascade Mountains", not "all cougars in Washington". Unless cougar biology has changed some, I'm doubting all cougars in Washington are large males. Details matter. Now there's fully two posts in this thread from folks with juice stating Cougars kill 50-100,000 Deer/Elk a year based on a bad reading. There are only ~300,000 deer total in the state. Suggesting cougars kill off 33+% of WA deer every single year is a stretch. Need to find out how many large males living in the Cascade Mountains there are to come up with the number you're looking for.
It's government funded studies done by biologists that have indicated a cougar will kill 25 to 50 deer per year. It is also studies done within yellowstone by biologists that indicate a wolf kills on average the equivalent of 17 elk per year, they actually have it narrowed down to so many pounds of meat per day for each wolf, so in real life that 17 elk is probably something more like 15 deer, 5 moose, and 5 elk to arrive at the total pounds of meat needed. The same is true for cougar, in my own experience I've learned that when a cougar kills an elk it feeds him/her probably three times as long as a deer.
Currently I've heard the state estimates we have 2000 to 4000 cougar depending who you ask, I personally think we are closer to the upper number. If those scientists who did the studies knew what they were doing that means the big cats are eating the equivalent of at least 50,000 deer per year. It should be noted that in some areas government studies have indicated cougar are the most frequent predator on elk, in those type areas where the cats are eating elk they obviously are not eating as many deer, but for example in northern Idaho the cougar predation on elk has been proven to actually exceed wolf predation, combined cougars, wolves, and bear were decimating elk numbers. Now that Idaho allows 2 bear, 2 cougar, 5 hunted wolves and 5 trapped wolves per hunter in the impacted areas we have noticed elk numbers slowly climbing. The big question is what is going to happen in WA where predator management is practically non-existent, I think we are starting to see the answer to that question!
Post by: bearpaw on June 05, 2019, 06:10:47 PM
Hunter have been replaced by predators, exactly what the greeners want to happen!
Post by: Bango skank on June 05, 2019, 06:23:05 PM
Remember, we used to have 500 to 1500 doe permits every year in most NE WA units, since predators have expanded so much we can't even support a youth doe season without causing deer numbers to drop on mild winter years!
Hunter have been replaced by predators, exactly what the greeners want to happen!
They even did away with the colville river 2nd deer tag, which was to address vehicle collisions.
Post by: bearpaw on June 05, 2019, 06:46:53 PM
Remember, we used to have 500 to 1500 doe permits every year in most NE WA units, since predators have expanded so much we can't even support a youth doe season without causing deer numbers to drop on mild winter years!
Hunter have been replaced by predators, exactly what the greeners want to happen!
They even did away with the colville river 2nd deer tag, which was to address vehicle collisions.
That has been solved for a few years, no deer, no collisions, duhhh, WDFW just wasn't on top of the biology or else they were not being honest, it took the local citizens complaining to wake up the commission to the not-so-accurate WDFW regional recommendations! I tried to be nice!
Post by: stlusn30-06 on June 05, 2019, 07:30:06 PM
I find it hard to believe those numbers but that would equate to 57,760 elk and deer per year killed by cougars using the low end numbers.
:yike:
Cougars are likely a significant contributor based on the information from the WDFW and the resources you shared. But the article you quoted says "a large male living in the Cascade Mountains", not "all cougars in Washington". Unless cougar biology has changed some, I'm doubting all cougars in Washington are large males. Details matter. Now there's fully two posts in this thread from folks with juice stating Cougars kill 50-100,000 Deer/Elk a year based on a bad reading. There are only ~300,000 deer total in the state. Suggesting cougars kill off 33+% of WA deer every single year is a stretch. Need to find out how many large males living in the Cascade Mountains there are to come up with the number you're looking for.
It's government funded studies done by biologists that have indicated a cougar will kill 25 to 50 deer per year. It is also studies done within yellowstone by biologists that indicate a wolf kills on average the equivalent of 17 elk per year, they actually have it narrowed down to so many pounds of meat per day for each wolf, so in real life that 17 elk is probably something more like 15 deer, 5 moose, and 5 elk to arrive at the total pounds of meat needed. The same is true for cougar, in my own experience I've learned that when a cougar kills an elk it feeds him/her probably three times as long as a deer.
Currently I've heard the state estimates we have 2000 to 4000 cougar depending who you ask, I personally think we are closer to the upper number. If those scientists who did the studies knew what they were doing that means the big cats are eating the equivalent of at least 50,000 deer per year. It should be noted that in some areas government studies have indicated cougar are the most frequent predator on elk, in those type areas where the cats are eating elk they obviously are not eating as many deer, but for example in northern Idaho the cougar predation on elk has been proven to actually exceed wolf predation, combined cougars, wolves, and bear were decimating elk numbers. Now that Idaho allows 2 bear, 2 cougar, 5 hunted wolves and 5 trapped wolves per hunter in the impacted areas we have noticed elk numbers slowly climbing. The big question is what is going to happen in WA where predator management is practically non-existent, I think we are starting to see the answer to that question!
You've definitely read more and are better educated on this than I am. I was just quoting the article in the original post. In which WDFW said a large male kills every 9-12 days. Which would be 30-40 a year for a large male. If you're up for it, can you link to some additional reading? I'd like to have this info in my back pocket. At 4,000 cougar killing the low end of 25 with the stats you mention, that's 100,000 animals a year. Let's say elk are 5-10% of that, that'd be 5,000 to 10,000 elk a year with a total population of 60,000 in the state, leaving 90,000 deer a year falling to cougar predation. 1/3 of the entire deer population of the state. This would be the grossest mismanagement of wildlife in the modern era. My mind is open. Just haven't dug much into this info in the past. It would certainly answer the question this poll was designed for.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on June 05, 2019, 07:37:09 PM