POLL: Deer Herd Decline, Why?

[The Marquis]

The deer herds around me are doing good.

I heard that from the Undertaker, Papa Shango, The Missing Link, Doink The Clown, The Berzerker, Demolition Ax, Demolition Smash and the Ultimate Warrior as well. 

[rainshadow1]

Will see if I can find the literature.... it was a point of discussion on a break.

[fireweed]

West side habitat loss due to (mostly) changes in forest management, both public and private land.

Public land stopped logging, puts out all the small westside fires, and stopped broadcast burning.  This equals lots of thick trees and little feed.

Private land kept logging but stopped slash burning and turned to spraying.  This lead to lots of openings, but little good deer food.

Most deer now are seen in yards eating rose bushes and green beans.

[Dhoey07]

The deer herds around me are doing good.

I heard that from the Undertaker, Papa Shango, The Missing Link, Doink The Clown, The Berzerker, Demolition Ax, Demolition Smash and the Ultimate Warrior as well.

^^^^ Someone gets it 

But yeah, around Spokane, the deer herds are doing ok.  I can't speak for the NE or SE corners though.

[jackelope]

I took a hunter's safety class with my stepkids a year and a half ago. (And with my two sons about 6 years ago. And on my own 35 years ago... yeesh!) Anyway, the WDFW is requiring the instructors to tell the classes that predators aren't able to make a significant impact on the prey species populations.



. . . . . . . . . . THINK ABOUT THAT . . . . . . . . . .




None of the instructors agreed with it, I talked to them, but the wdfw REQUIRED them to teach it that way.


More here than meets the eye, folks.

Can you provide some documentation and context to this?  I don't believe what you are describing is possibly accurate and/or complete...effects of predators on wildlife has been studied for centuries, and while its by no means always the cause of declines there are several studies where it is...so I think the instructors probably misunderstood something.

I would love to hear more about this "requirement".  I teach hunter ed and I have not been given the direction you are describing.  We use the water bucket pic in Hunter399's post.  The bucket is the "carrying capacity" of the land.  All of the holes are things that lower population.  Predators and hunters create one of those holes that affect population and keep it below capacity.  If you are over capacity you damage the habitat.

@pianoman9701
@timberfaller

You guys ever hear of this requirement?

[timberfaller]

Jackelope, PM sent.

[Bob33]

I took a hunter's safety class with my stepkids a year and a half ago. (And with my two sons about 6 years ago. And on my own 35 years ago... yeesh!) Anyway, the WDFW is requiring the instructors to tell the classes that predators aren't able to make a significant impact on the prey species populations.



. . . . . . . . . . THINK ABOUT THAT . . . . . . . . . .




None of the instructors agreed with it, I talked to them, but the wdfw REQUIRED them to teach it that way.


More here than meets the eye, folks.

Can you provide some documentation and context to this?  I don't believe what you are describing is possibly accurate and/or complete...effects of predators on wildlife has been studied for centuries, and while its by no means always the cause of declines there are several studies where it is...so I think the instructors probably misunderstood something.

I would love to hear more about this "requirement".  I teach hunter ed and I have not been given the direction you are describing.  We use the water bucket pic in Hunter399's post.  The bucket is the "carrying capacity" of the land.  All of the holes are things that lower population.  Predators and hunters create one of those holes that affect population and keep it below capacity.  If you are over capacity you damage the habitat.

@pianoman9701
@timberfaller

You guys ever hear of this requirement?

It's never been communicated to me that it's a requirement and I've been teaching a long time. The study materials do suggest that predator management is not the best way to permanently increase wildlife populations. We teach that predators should be managed.

[MtnMuley]

How can you make a poll with 12 choices, but leave off the list the most important choice, MISMANAGEMENT?

Mismanagement is a combination of several of the choices. IMO

Sure looks to me like many of the members are saying mismanagement, but hey, this is your big poll, so be stubborn. I could care less.

There is an "other" category - and folks can then explain what their observations are.  Just saying "mismanagement" is about the most useless thing one could select if there is not a more elaborate description of what that means.   

Mismanagement is very simple.  We should meet up for coffee sometime.  I'd happily drive down south.

[timberfaller]

"The study materials do suggest that predator management is not the best way to permanently increase wildlife populations."

Bob33's quote!

Bingo, that is what I was trying to remember.   

As instructor's we have "requirements" that need to be said for the benefit of the students.  But I've never been in a class where "other" explanations weren't given out!    

After class discussions get very interesting!!

[pianoman9701]

I took a hunter's safety class with my stepkids a year and a half ago. (And with my two sons about 6 years ago. And on my own 35 years ago... yeesh!) Anyway, the WDFW is requiring the instructors to tell the classes that predators aren't able to make a significant impact on the prey species populations.



. . . . . . . . . . THINK ABOUT THAT . . . . . . . . . .




None of the instructors agreed with it, I talked to them, but the wdfw REQUIRED them to teach it that way.


More here than meets the eye, folks.

Can you provide some documentation and context to this?  I don't believe what you are describing is possibly accurate and/or complete...effects of predators on wildlife has been studied for centuries, and while its by no means always the cause of declines there are several studies where it is...so I think the instructors probably misunderstood something.

I would love to hear more about this "requirement".  I teach hunter ed and I have not been given the direction you are describing.  We use the water bucket pic in Hunter399's post.  The bucket is the "carrying capacity" of the land.  All of the holes are things that lower population.  Predators and hunters create one of those holes that affect population and keep it below capacity.  If you are over capacity you damage the habitat.

@pianoman9701
@timberfaller

You guys ever hear of this requirement?

Nope, not true. An instructor with an agenda may have added some of his/her own ideas, but this is definitely not a requirement......Think About That............

[jackelope]

Jackelope, PM sent.

Thank you, sir!

[pianoman9701]

Something else to consider is that the curriculum is not specific to WA, except when we work on regulations, seasons, etc. The overall course is standardized and the same one is used by many states. They have a chart or pyramid showing the different causes of death of wildlife that may show predators a little way down the list (I can't recall exactly and I'm away from my material), but to suggest that the WDFW purposely downplays the role of predators in the death of wildlife in their Hunter Education material is incorrect.

[Hockey21]

Mismanagement which includes all of the above. Mismanagement of predators, habitat, number of tags, etc. My only knowledge is of the Methow. It's sad to see the state that herd is in. I definitely don't have the "right" answer, but I wish something would be done.

[Bunny Thumper]

On the West side it is simple, HERBICIDES. First started seeing them in the mid. 90's in 568. Night and day difference in the clear cuts I was hunting at the time and a slow decline in populations ever since. Private timber and state lands have little food for animals the first five + years after spraying. It's hard to grow populations with no groceries, these clear cuts might as well be  Wall Mart parking lots.   

[headshot5]

On the West side it is simple, HERBICIDES. First started seeing them in the mid. 90's in 568. Night and day difference in the clear cuts I was hunting at the time and a slow decline in populations ever since. Private timber and state lands have little food for animals the first five + years after spraying. It's hard to grow populations with no groceries, these clear cuts might as well be  Wall Mart parking lots.   

Don't forget the deer hair loss syndrome..., which is not herbicide related.