POLL: Deer Herd Decline, Why?

[backcountry55]

it is simple the deer heards are not doing well because of preditors plain and simple!!!!!! until we take care of them we will never have any of the heards to what they were even 8 years ago! mainly cougars!!!!

[Rainier10]

I took a hunter's safety class with my stepkids a year and a half ago. (And with my two sons about 6 years ago. And on my own 35 years ago... yeesh!) Anyway, the WDFW is requiring the instructors to tell the classes that predators aren't able to make a significant impact on the prey species populations.



. . . . . . . . . . THINK ABOUT THAT . . . . . . . . . .




None of the instructors agreed with it, I talked to them, but the wdfw REQUIRED them to teach it that way.


More here than meets the eye, folks.

Can you provide some documentation and context to this?  I don't believe what you are describing is possibly accurate and/or complete...effects of predators on wildlife has been studied for centuries, and while its by no means always the cause of declines there are several studies where it is...so I think the instructors probably misunderstood something.

I would love to hear more about this "requirement".  I teach hunter ed and I have not been given the direction you are describing.  We use the water bucket pic in Hunter399's post.  The bucket is the "carrying capacity" of the land.  All of the holes are things that lower population.  Predators and hunters create one of those holes that affect population and keep it below capacity.  If you are over capacity you damage the habitat.

@pianoman9701
@timberfaller

You guys ever hear of this requirement?

It's never been communicated to me that it's a requirement and I've been teaching a long time. The study materials do suggest that predator management is not the best way to permanently increase wildlife populations. We teach that predators should be managed.

The bold is true and that part could be viewed as required to go over in class since the best way to increase wildlife populations is to improve the habitat.

Playing the pass it on game I could see how the message relayed that "reducing predators isn't the best way to increase wildlife populations, the best way to increase them is by improving the habitat" could get changed to "don't talk about reducing predators at all just focus on the best way to increase wildlife populations is to improve the habitat" and then it gets changed to "don't talk about reducing predators".  Something gets lost each time the message gets passed on and when it gets to the last guy it isn't the true message.

Sorry for the sidebar to the thread.

[Rainier10]

Great thread so far.  I think you are probably getting exactly what you would have expected.  Lots of opinions on multiple issues and the issues vary from one area to another.

There are multiple issues on the west side and some similar to the east side but not the same.  Cats are an issue on both sides but herbicides aren't.

Great topic and good to see so many passionate about what they think the issues are.

[Jake Dogfish]

We don’t have predators or Deer where I live.  So I put habitat loss.  Perhaps vehicle collision would be more accurate? 

[The scout]

I wouldn't say there is one main reason why the deer herds are the shape they are in. Its the perfect storm of all that's in the poll. I would say it started with taking away running dogs after cougars and baiting bears, witch took awhile to really take a major effect on herds. I also think poaching is happening more than ever just because people are having a harder time filling tags during season. I also think tribal hunting is extremely carried away. Then you throw wolves, fires , winter kill. I think we could recover from any one individual thing on the poll but not put all together. I think the thing that gets me is every single thing is preventable. this is just my  so take it easy

[Matth]

I took a hunter's safety class with my stepkids a year and a half ago. (And with my two sons about 6 years ago. And on my own 35 years ago... yeesh!) Anyway, the WDFW is requiring the instructors to tell the classes that predators aren't able to make a significant impact on the prey species populations.



. . . . . . . . . . THINK ABOUT THAT . . . . . . . . . .




None of the instructors agreed with it, I talked to them, but the wdfw REQUIRED them to teach it that way.


More here than meets the eye, folks.

Can you provide some documentation and context to this?  I don't believe what you are describing is possibly accurate and/or complete...effects of predators on wildlife has been studied for centuries, and while its by no means always the cause of declines there are several studies where it is...so I think the instructors probably misunderstood something.

I would love to hear more about this "requirement".  I teach hunter ed and I have not been given the direction you are describing.  We use the water bucket pic in Hunter399's post.  The bucket is the "carrying capacity" of the land.  All of the holes are things that lower population.  Predators and hunters create one of those holes that affect population and keep it below capacity.  If you are over capacity you damage the habitat.

@pianoman9701
@timberfaller

You guys ever hear of this requirement?

It's never been communicated to me that it's a requirement and I've been teaching a long time. The study materials do suggest that predator management is not the best way to permanently increase wildlife populations. We teach that predators should be managed.

The bold is true and that part could be viewed as required to go over in class since the best way to increase wildlife populations is to improve the habitat.

Playing the pass it on game I could see how the message relayed that "reducing predators isn't the best way to increase wildlife populations, the best way to increase them is by improving the habitat" could get changed to "don't talk about reducing predators at all just focus on the best way to increase wildlife populations is to improve the habitat" and then it gets changed to "don't talk about reducing predators".  Something gets lost each time the message gets passed on and when it gets to the last guy it isn't the true message.

Sorry for the sidebar to the thread.

The same was communicated at my sons hunters ed class last fall, and the instructor was quickly corrected by several parents, that they are not the only contributing factor. On a side note the instructor also told us to cover up all big game while in transport so as not to alarm the non hunting public, that also raised a few eye brows. All done now back on track.

[huntnphool]

 There really should be three separate polls, one for each blacktail, muley and whitetail.

[NOCK NOCK]

I wouldn't say there is one main reason why the deer herds are the shape they are in. Its the perfect storm of all that's in the poll. I would say it started with taking away running dogs after cougars and baiting bears, witch took awhile to really take a major effect on herds. I also think poaching is happening more than ever just because people are having a harder time filling tags during season. I also think tribal hunting is extremely carried away. Then you throw wolves, fires , winter kill. I think we could recover from any one individual thing on the poll but not put all together. I think the thing that gets me is every single thing is preventable. this is just my  so take it easy

BINGO. 
It is a combination of them all, which I believe most on here agree on that. The point of the poll was to show that, and that its not just a predator problem.

Compare 2 of the biggest herds, Methow & Entiat. Both herds are in heavy decline, both areas have had massive fires, both get heavy hunting pressure, both get poaching, cougars and bears have always existed in both, etc.,....the only big difference is wolves. Which leads us to many folks putting all the decline on wolves(by what is posted on HW all the time) So why is the Entiat herd in such decline? Cant pin that on wolves.

The poll was designed to be reduced to 3 main categories,
A. Predators(wolf-cat-bear-yote-etc.)   
B. Human kill (Legal-illegal-overharvest-vehicle strikes) 
c. Living conditions (Fires-winter kill- disease-habitat loss)   



@MtnMuley, Do I know you? Or have I ticked you off? I dont believe either is true, so just curious why your so down on me     "this is your big poll, so be stubborn. I could care less."
  I've got thick skin so no worries, just like to be friendly with all. 

And others were correct in sharing my view, mismanagement is a combination of most all of the choices, (predator quotas, season setting/length, tribal harvest, let it burn/or not with fires, excessive doe/cow permits, chemical spraying, habitat to homes, etc, etc, etc,  the list is endless, not simple.

There really should be three separate polls, one for each blacktail, muley and whitetail.

Yea I thought about that, but just went with it.

[Goshawk]

It's never as simple as a one reason poll.

Around here, I'd have to say hair loss is the main culprit. The local numbers never recovered after that hard hit, and of course the WDFW has done NOTHING to help the population recover.
Second is over harvesting. There's just no biological reason to still have doe tags in an area that was so hard hit by hair loss.
Third is a tie between poaching and vehicle collisions. The fawns really take a bad hit come spring on the local roads. Suppressors have made popping a deer at night very easy to get away with.

[Jonathan_S]

It's never as simple as a one reason poll.

Around here, I'd have to say hair loss is the main culprit. The local numbers never recovered after that hard hit, and of course the WDFW has done NOTHING to help the population recover.
Second is over harvesting. There's just no biological reason to still have doe tags in an area that was so hard hit by hair loss.
Third is a tie between poaching and vehicle collisions. The fawns really take a bad hit come spring on the local roads. Suppressors have made popping a deer at night very easy to get away with.

Ya'll got plenty of lions down there

[The scout]

I wouldn't say there is one main reason why the deer herds are the shape they are in. Its the perfect storm of all that's in the poll. I would say it started with taking away running dogs after cougars and baiting bears, witch took awhile to really take a major effect on herds. I also think poaching is happening more than ever just because people are having a harder time filling tags during season. I also think tribal hunting is extremely carried away. Then you throw wolves, fires , winter kill. I think we could recover from any one individual thing on the poll but not put all together. I think the thing that gets me is every single thing is preventable. this is just my  so take it easy

BINGO. 
It is a combination of them all, which I believe most on here agree on that. The point of the poll was to show that, and that its not just a predator problem.

Compare 2 of the biggest herds, Methow & Entiat. Both herds are in heavy decline, both areas have had massive fires, both get heavy hunting pressure, both get poaching, cougars and bears have always existed in both, etc.,....the only big difference is wolves. Which leads us to many folks putting all the decline on wolves(by what is posted on HW all the time) So why is the Entiat herd in such decline? Cant pin that on wolves.

The poll was designed to be reduced to 3 main categories,
A. Predators(wolf-cat-bear-yote-etc.)   
B. Human kill (Legal-illegal-overharvest-vehicle strikes) 
c. Living conditions (Fires-winter kill- disease-habitat loss)   



@MtnMuley, Do I know you? Or have I ticked you off? I dont believe either is true, so just curious why your so down on me     "this is your big poll, so be stubborn. I could care less."
  I've got thick skin so no worries, just like to be friendly with all. 

And others were correct in sharing my view, mismanagement is a combination of most all of the choices, (predator quotas, season setting/length, tribal harvest, let it burn/or not with fires, excessive doe/cow permits, chemical spraying, habitat to homes, etc, etc, etc,  the list is endless, not simple.

There really should be three separate polls, one for each blacktail, muley and whitetail.

Yea I thought about that, but just went with it.

I think there are more cats up the Entiat than there ever had been before. I don’t remember the last time I went hiking around up there and didn’t see a cat kill. They have always been there but seems like there numbers are higher than ever.

[time2hunt]

We blame predator which is a big problem and we all know that! But how many of you are shooting immature bucks ? We have to learn to manage the herds are self because the game department isn’t.  The true joy of the hunt is just being out in the woods sweating and enjoying the outdoors.  I can remember the days of passing up a half dozen bucks a day hiking from the top of the naneum down. Your lucky to find a buck any more unless it’s in our Alf Alfa field. Im sorry if you will disagree but I’ve seen this coming for years.


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[Turner89]

I voted habitat loss because here on the Olympic Peninsula, changes in logging and how tree farms are managed has really affected the herds here. For Starters, The National Forest Doesn't get much logging compared to the past so There isn't as much feed as there was say back in the 70s and 80s.  But another biggie is the commercial tree farms have turned into mono culture deserts. Growing up in the 60s and 70s the forests were a good mix of hardwood and softwoods.  You could still find a good alder patch or big leaf maple stand and anyone who's hunted blacktails knows how much they love alder/fern/salmonberry/maple patches.  The mixed forests of those days were much better hunting than the all fir forests of today. The clearcuts are still good as food producers when they aren't being sprayed with roundup equivalent to kill the hardwoods sprouting up, but once they get to an age that strangles out most other plants, they aren't good for much except bedding areas.

But if I hadn't voted for habitat, I'd have voted coyotes. They do incalculable damage killing fawns and probably kill more fawns than any other animal. Here's a story of a study done in Michigan.  http://www.timberwolfinformation.org/mi-experts-surprised-by-which-predator-is-no-1-killer-of-deer-in-michigans-upper-peninsula/

I feel that the spraying is really affecting the blacktail in my area.  I'm fortunate that all the area I hunt is state and private timber co land. They have done alot of logging over the last 10 years, which should be a very good thing, but the spraying is destroying all the good deer food. (I get why they do it, and have no problem with them taking care of there crop.)
 My second reason for BT decline in my area is coyotes. They are out of control over here, and they are harder to hunt on the west side.

[DOUBLELUNG]

Annual declines, winterkill.  Longer term declines (decades) habitat loss.  Historic declines, need to look at the effects of European settlement and statehood.  In the 1700s, mule deer were a habitat specialist locally common in  suitable habitat where they could successfully escape wolves, e.g. mountain ranges with rocky, uneven foothills terrain.  In many cases mule deer formed a wider arc around bighorn sheep ranges.  They were absent from many areas where they occur today, often for hundreds of miles.

Predator persecution and logging both lead to range expansions and increases in numerical abundance, with mule deer numbers reaching unprecedented abundance in the 1940s-1960s.  Rangewide, they have declined with predator protections and habitat loss as logged forests regrew unmanaged into dense, doghair stands with little forage.  Now, we have a complex relationship with fire, which provides both benefits and impacts that change over time.  Winter range fires tend to have longterm harmful impacts, while stand-replacing forest fires can have immediate benefits if moderate intensity, or longterm negative impacts if high intensity but transitioning over several years or even decades into beneficial habitat.

The outlook for migratory mule deer on National Forests and BLM, as well as state winter ranges, is not good.  On the flip side, nonmigratory mule deer continue to fare well in low elevation areas where they didn't exist in abundance 100-150 years ago, the low elevation basins between mountain ranges: Columbia Basin here in WA, eastern plains of Wyoming, Montana, Colorado and the Dakotas, Snake River plains, and most areas where native prairie and shrubsteppe have been converted to agriculture.

[NOCK NOCK]

So they are adapting to the changing environment. Do you feel the migratory herds will adapt to some extent?