Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on March 23, 2019, 08:47:46 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on March 23, 2019, 08:55:28 AM
Yeah, and blaming it on wolves and cougars doesn't fit the narrative. These people are holding onto these PC narratives at the expense of our wildlife. Native wolves all gone? Doesn't matter because we now have better ones. All of the caribou gone? The wolves and cougars killed them but it's man's fault for destroying habitat. This is willful violation of the ESA, favoring one animal over another for survival.
Post by: MtnMuley on March 23, 2019, 08:57:20 AM
Post by: LabChamp on March 23, 2019, 09:47:16 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on March 23, 2019, 11:34:10 AM
Post by: Stein on March 23, 2019, 11:54:23 AM
Post by: buckfvr on March 23, 2019, 12:00:57 PM
Post by: cem3434 on March 23, 2019, 12:31:19 PM
Post by: meatwhack on March 23, 2019, 01:38:20 PM
Post by: CementFinisher on March 23, 2019, 02:28:27 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on March 23, 2019, 02:43:14 PM
Canada has wolfs and lions and the caribou seem to do alright. I think this has more to do with habitat and that area being on the extreme southern fringe of where they’d normally be. Just my opinion.
So you seem to know more about this than the biologists who were working with the caribou who said that predation by wolves and cougars is the primary reason. Where do you get your information?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 23, 2019, 03:12:22 PM
Post by: zwickeyman on March 23, 2019, 04:00:42 PM
Just like gun control, it's not about guns, it's about control
Post by: zwickeyman on March 23, 2019, 04:01:48 PM
Post by: Dhoey07 on March 23, 2019, 04:11:36 PM
Post by: CementFinisher on March 23, 2019, 04:22:30 PM
Post by: dscubame on March 23, 2019, 04:34:21 PM
This herd has been struggling for quite awhile. They just weren’t long for the world. I don’t see how you could pit this as wolves vs caribou. Predation was the final straw but with consitantly low numbers in the herd it was just a matter of time before something got them. I don’t think that they have numbered over 50 in this century.
Agree. My take on it as well. Wolves or not this was going to be the outcome.
Post by: KFhunter on March 23, 2019, 04:40:56 PM
might as well, nothing much left to protect up there.
Post by: Bob33 on March 23, 2019, 04:54:05 PM
This herd has been struggling for quite awhile. They just weren’t long for the world. I don’t see how you could pit this as wolves vs caribou. Predation was the final straw but with consitantly low numbers in the herd it was just a matter of time before something got them. I don’t think that they have numbered over 50 in this century.
Historically, within the lower 48 states, woodland caribou were once distributed from central Washington State to Glacier National Park in Montana and south to Salmon River. Additionally caribou were found within the Great Lake States and New England States such as Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine. It is not know how many caribou were found within what are now the lower 48 states, but it is likely the numbers were in the thousands.
Today, woodland caribou are found in only one location south of Canada, which are the Selkirk Mountains of northern Idaho and northeastern Washington. This small population, which historically numbered in the hundreds of caribou, has been reduced to less than 15 animals. The habitat for this small population is contiguous with adjacent British Columbia and the animals move freely across the international border.
http://scawild.org/south-selkirk-mountain-caribou/ (http://scawild.org/south-selkirk-mountain-caribou/)
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 23, 2019, 06:12:36 PM
Hopefully Idaho opens back up the snowmobiling in that area, used to be a lot of nice trails out of Priest Lake.They'll find something...wolverine, selkirk beaver, triple striped earthworm, grizzlies, etc.
might as well, nothing much left to protect up there.
Post by: CAMPMEAT on March 23, 2019, 06:41:11 PM
Post by: Dan-o on March 23, 2019, 07:38:42 PM
Canada has wolfs and lions and the caribou seem to do alright. I think this has more to do with habitat and that area being on the extreme southern fringe of where they’d normally be. Just my opinion.
So you seem to know more about this than the biologists who were working with the caribou who said that predation by wolves and cougars is the primary reason. Where do you get your information?
Canada thinned wolves specifically to help their Mountain Caribou herd.
We protect our wolves almost without exception.
We certainly havent ever thinned wolves to help wild game herds.
Post by: LDennis24 on March 23, 2019, 07:56:47 PM
https://www.gohunt.com/read/news/idaho-wolves-killed-to-help-struggling-elk-herd#gs.2rttut
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 23, 2019, 08:06:45 PM
Post by: meatwhack on March 23, 2019, 08:13:27 PM
Canada has wolfs and lions and the caribou seem to do alright. I think this has more to do with habitat and that area being on the extreme southern fringe of where they’d normally be. Just my opinion.
So you seem to know more about this than the biologists who were working with the caribou who said that predation by wolves and cougars is the primary reason. Where do you get your information?
At the end of my statement I said “just my opinion” like what most of what’s posted on here are is people’s opinions. I never said anything about thinking I knew more than biologists but I also don’t always agree with what biologists say or do again my opinion.
Post by: snake on March 23, 2019, 08:51:41 PM
They're already doing it, Grizzly Bears.Hopefully Idaho opens back up the snowmobiling in that area, used to be a lot of nice trails out of Priest Lake.They'll find something...wolverine, selkirk beaver, triple striped earthworm, grizzlies, etc.
might as well, nothing much left to protect up there.
Post by: Romulus1297 on March 23, 2019, 08:54:37 PM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on March 23, 2019, 10:45:10 PM
This herd has been struggling for quite awhile. They just weren’t long for the world. I don’t see how you could pit this as wolves vs caribou. Predation was the final straw but with consitantly low numbers in the herd it was just a matter of time before something got them. I don’t think that they have numbered over 50 in this century.
Historically, within the lower 48 states, woodland caribou were once distributed from central Washington State to Glacier National Park in Montana and south to Salmon River. Additionally caribou were found within the Great Lake States and New England States such as Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine. It is not know how many caribou were found within what are now the lower 48 states, but it is likely the numbers were in the thousands.
Today, woodland caribou are found in only one location south of Canada, which are the Selkirk Mountains of northern Idaho and northeastern Washington. This small population, which historically numbered in the hundreds of caribou, has been reduced to less than 15 animals. The habitat for this small population is contiguous with adjacent British Columbia and the animals move freely across the international border.
http://scawild.org/south-selkirk-mountain-caribou/ (http://scawild.org/south-selkirk-mountain-caribou/)
Don't forget the rest of the article.
"The main threats to mountain caribou are habitat loss, predation, habitat fragmentation and degradation. Logging has removed many critical old growth and mature forests that caribou depend on and replaced them with younger early successional forests. These early successional forests attract moose, deer and elk, as well as their predators such as mountain lions, which may incidentally prey on the caribou. Before their habitat was fragmented, caribou largely avoided predation through their unique seasonal movements and by distributing themselves throughout extensive old-growth forests."
And "Within the United States, woodland caribou were listed as an endangered species in 1984," Well before wolf recovery or re-introduction. Whatever you want to call it.
Post by: Taco280AI on March 24, 2019, 06:30:47 AM
Post by: wheels on March 24, 2019, 01:43:42 PM
Post by: Bob33 on March 24, 2019, 01:56:16 PM
This herd has been struggling for quite awhile. They just weren’t long for the world. I don’t see how you could pit this as wolves vs caribou. Predation was the final straw but with consitantly low numbers in the herd it was just a matter of time before something got them. I don’t think that they have numbered over 50 in this century.
Historically, within the lower 48 states, woodland caribou were once distributed from central Washington State to Glacier National Park in Montana and south to Salmon River. Additionally caribou were found within the Great Lake States and New England States such as Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine. It is not know how many caribou were found within what are now the lower 48 states, but it is likely the numbers were in the thousands.
Today, woodland caribou are found in only one location south of Canada, which are the Selkirk Mountains of northern Idaho and northeastern Washington. This small population, which historically numbered in the hundreds of caribou, has been reduced to less than 15 animals. The habitat for this small population is contiguous with adjacent British Columbia and the animals move freely across the international border.
http://scawild.org/south-selkirk-mountain-caribou/ (http://scawild.org/south-selkirk-mountain-caribou/)
Don't forget the rest of the article.
"The main threats to mountain caribou are habitat loss, predation, habitat fragmentation and degradation. Logging has removed many critical old growth and mature forests that caribou depend on and replaced them with younger early successional forests. These early successional forests attract moose, deer and elk, as well as their predators such as mountain lions, which may incidentally prey on the caribou. Before their habitat was fragmented, caribou largely avoided predation through their unique seasonal movements and by distributing themselves throughout extensive old-growth forests."
And "Within the United States, woodland caribou were listed as an endangered species in 1984," Well before wolf recovery or re-introduction. Whatever you want to call it.
Yes they were designated as endangered in 1984.
Yet in spite of that wolves were introduced and allowed unfettered expansion into their last remaining habitat. Wolves were a major contributing factor putting the nail in their coffin as complete extirpation from the United States occurred.
Orwell was right: "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."
Post by: andrew_in_idaho on March 25, 2019, 08:27:30 AM
Idaho just thinned out the wolves in the Lolo to protect the elk herd there also. The article says the area had a herd of 10000 several years ago and now it's down to 1900 so they shot some wolves to help them out. In Washington we do the opposite... :bash:
https://www.gohunt.com/read/news/idaho-wolves-killed-to-help-struggling-elk-herd#gs.2rttut
They’ve done the same in the Frank Church. The problem in the Lolo unfortunately isn’t wolves, it’s just plain reduced carrying capacity, the habitat cannot handle the number of elk it once did due to the lack of forest management.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: LDennis24 on March 25, 2019, 09:53:32 AM
Another great story
Post by: ribka on March 25, 2019, 10:15:18 AM
Notice all the huge forest fires the past two decades because logging was shut down by eco terrorists?
You know who to thank for that
Idaho just thinned out the wolves in the Lolo to protect the elk herd there also. The article says the area had a herd of 10000 several years ago and now it's down to 1900 so they shot some wolves to help them out. In Washington we do the opposite... :bash:
https://www.gohunt.com/read/news/idaho-wolves-killed-to-help-struggling-elk-herd#gs.2rttut
They’ve done the same in the Frank Church. The problem in the Lolo unfortunately isn’t wolves, it’s just plain reduced carrying capacity, the habitat cannot handle the number of elk it once did due to the lack of forest management.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: ribka on March 25, 2019, 10:19:34 AM
I see a lot of complaining, but does anyone do anything about it???
You mean like shoot wolves to save the almost extinct caribou and then have Conservation NW offer a $10,000 reward for your prosecution
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.king5.com/amp/article%3fsection=tech&subsection=science&topic=environment&headline=two-wolves-shot-dead-in-eastern-washington&contentId=281-498285305
Zero dollars from CNW for the caribou though
Post by: woodswalker on March 25, 2019, 10:20:53 AM
Funny, no lawsuits. It's almost like it's not really about the animals and science with some groups.
Its NOT..its about fund raising. Pure and simple.
Post by: woodswalker on March 25, 2019, 10:21:53 AM
This whole thing just pisses me off. Just goes to show its not about the animals. These crazy libs have a larger agenda with the Wolves.:yeah:
Just like gun control, it's not about guns, it's about control
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on March 25, 2019, 11:16:17 AM
This herd has been struggling for quite awhile. They just weren’t long for the world. I don’t see how you could pit this as wolves vs caribou. Predation was the final straw but with consitantly low numbers in the herd it was just a matter of time before something got them. I don’t think that they have numbered over 50 in this century.
Historically, within the lower 48 states, woodland caribou were once distributed from central Washington State to Glacier National Park in Montana and south to Salmon River. Additionally caribou were found within the Great Lake States and New England States such as Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine. It is not know how many caribou were found within what are now the lower 48 states, but it is likely the numbers were in the thousands.
Today, woodland caribou are found in only one location south of Canada, which are the Selkirk Mountains of northern Idaho and northeastern Washington. This small population, which historically numbered in the hundreds of caribou, has been reduced to less than 15 animals. The habitat for this small population is contiguous with adjacent British Columbia and the animals move freely across the international border.
http://scawild.org/south-selkirk-mountain-caribou/ (http://scawild.org/south-selkirk-mountain-caribou/)
Don't forget the rest of the article.
"The main threats to mountain caribou are habitat loss, predation, habitat fragmentation and degradation. Logging has removed many critical old growth and mature forests that caribou depend on and replaced them with younger early successional forests. These early successional forests attract moose, deer and elk, as well as their predators such as mountain lions, which may incidentally prey on the caribou. Before their habitat was fragmented, caribou largely avoided predation through their unique seasonal movements and by distributing themselves throughout extensive old-growth forests."
And "Within the United States, woodland caribou were listed as an endangered species in 1984," Well before wolf recovery or re-introduction. Whatever you want to call it.
The caribou project has been incredibly frustrating. Agencies and NGO's did virtually nothing to save the herd, despite warning signs as far back as 2009. States, Feds, and NGO's literally watched the herd dwindle and spent more time meeting and discussing it than anyone did on "real" on the ground solutions. By the time the wolf cull went into effect it was too late.
Further, social tolerance of endangered species has decreased so much that people now cheer against species recovery. We even see that on this forum, a place that should be a bastion of conservation minded folks. Instead, people have tended towards the fringes and real conservation outcomes are suffering. Hopefully we can get back towards the middle.
If I was to do a "lesson's learned" discussion on this project, it would start with 1) avoiding regulatory capture 2) increasing social tolerance to conservation efforts and 3) finding compromise between the fringe groups
It's a matter of values. In this case logging, other species (wolves, lions, moose and elk) and winter recreation were more important than caribou. We could have saved them in 2009, but it would have taken a shift in social values and some funding. Caribou were just a victim of circumstances.
Post by: Wunderlich33 on March 26, 2019, 11:27:01 AM
Post by: wolfbait on March 27, 2019, 07:46:44 AM
This herd has been struggling for quite awhile. They just weren’t long for the world. I don’t see how you could pit this as wolves vs caribou. Predation was the final straw but with consitantly low numbers in the herd it was just a matter of time before something got them. I don’t think that they have numbered over 50 in this century.
Historically, within the lower 48 states, woodland caribou were once distributed from central Washington State to Glacier National Park in Montana and south to Salmon River. Additionally caribou were found within the Great Lake States and New England States such as Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine. It is not know how many caribou were found within what are now the lower 48 states, but it is likely the numbers were in the thousands.
Today, woodland caribou are found in only one location south of Canada, which are the Selkirk Mountains of northern Idaho and northeastern Washington. This small population, which historically numbered in the hundreds of caribou, has been reduced to less than 15 animals. The habitat for this small population is contiguous with adjacent British Columbia and the animals move freely across the international border.
http://scawild.org/south-selkirk-mountain-caribou/ (http://scawild.org/south-selkirk-mountain-caribou/)
Don't forget the rest of the article.
"The main threats to mountain caribou are habitat loss, predation, habitat fragmentation and degradation. Logging has removed many critical old growth and mature forests that caribou depend on and replaced them with younger early successional forests. These early successional forests attract moose, deer and elk, as well as their predators such as mountain lions, which may incidentally prey on the caribou. Before their habitat was fragmented, caribou largely avoided predation through their unique seasonal movements and by distributing themselves throughout extensive old-growth forests."
And "Within the United States, woodland caribou were listed as an endangered species in 1984," Well before wolf recovery or re-introduction. Whatever you want to call it.
The caribou project has been incredibly frustrating. Agencies and NGO's did virtually nothing to save the herd, despite warning signs as far back as 2009. States, Feds, and NGO's literally watched the herd dwindle and spent more time meeting and discussing it than anyone did on "real" on the ground solutions. By the time the wolf cull went into effect it was too late.
Further, social tolerance of endangered species has decreased so much that people now cheer against species recovery. We even see that on this forum, a place that should be a bastion of conservation minded folks. Instead, people have tended towards the fringes and real conservation outcomes are suffering. Hopefully we can get back towards the middle.
If I was to do a "lesson's learned" discussion on this project, it would start with 1) avoiding regulatory capture 2) increasing social tolerance to conservation efforts and 3) finding compromise between the fringe groups
It's a matter of values. In this case logging, other species (wolves, lions, moose and elk) and winter recreation were more important than caribou. We could have saved them in 2009, but it would have taken a shift in social values and some funding. Caribou were just a victim of circumstances.
Actually the USFWS, Fake environmental groups and WDFW etc. have abused the ESA by designating wolves endangered and then protecting them above all else. Remember the the USFWS started the propaganda lies in the 1960's, brain washed several generations.
The Mountain Caribou should have had top priority protection, but it doesn't fit into their agenda of ending hunting, plus protecting the mountain Caribou would put their prize fake endangered wolves in the crosshairs
Read back in the history of the ESA and you will see that the USFWS etc. have abused the heck out of it pretty much since it was adapted. The ESA has been a tool used by Agencies and NGO's to shut down huge tracts of land, stop mine, farming etc. all in the name of protecting a bogus critter that they "claim" is endangered, mean while back in reality there is the Mountain Caribou....
Remember the USFWS and Fake environmental groups illegaly brought wolves into the lower 48 that didn't belong here, they dumped them on top of native wolves, which was illegal, they broke the Lacy Act, the USFWS and Fake environmentalists lied from the beginning and they are still lying to you today.
Post by: Special T on March 27, 2019, 08:40:20 AM
That was a hollow offer. They know that folks in the NE were unlikely to snitch even if they knew something.I see a lot of complaining, but does anyone do anything about it???
You mean like shoot wolves to save the almost extinct caribou and then have Conservation NW offer a $10,000 reward for your prosecution
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.king5.com/amp/article%3fsection=tech&subsection=science&topic=environment&headline=two-wolves-shot-dead-in-eastern-washington&contentId=281-498285305
Zero dollars from CNW for the caribou though
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: idaho guy on March 27, 2019, 11:15:59 AM
Post by: ribka on March 27, 2019, 11:53:49 AM
Caribou were a victim of dangerous radical left wing anti hunting , pro predator groups like howling for wolves , Sierra club and conservation NW if were going to be completely truthful here.
This herd has been struggling for quite awhile. They just weren’t long for the world. I don’t see how you could pit this as wolves vs caribou. Predation was the final straw but with consitantly low numbers in the herd it was just a matter of time before something got them. I don’t think that they have numbered over 50 in this century.
Historically, within the lower 48 states, woodland caribou were once distributed from central Washington State to Glacier National Park in Montana and south to Salmon River. Additionally caribou were found within the Great Lake States and New England States such as Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine. It is not know how many caribou were found within what are now the lower 48 states, but it is likely the numbers were in the thousands.
Today, woodland caribou are found in only one location south of Canada, which are the Selkirk Mountains of northern Idaho and northeastern Washington. This small population, which historically numbered in the hundreds of caribou, has been reduced to less than 15 animals. The habitat for this small population is contiguous with adjacent British Columbia and the animals move freely across the international border.
http://scawild.org/south-selkirk-mountain-caribou/ (http://scawild.org/south-selkirk-mountain-caribou/)
Don't forget the rest of the article.
"The main threats to mountain caribou are habitat loss, predation, habitat fragmentation and degradation. Logging has removed many critical old growth and mature forests that caribou depend on and replaced them with younger early successional forests. These early successional forests attract moose, deer and elk, as well as their predators such as mountain lions, which may incidentally prey on the caribou. Before their habitat was fragmented, caribou largely avoided predation through their unique seasonal movements and by distributing themselves throughout extensive old-growth forests."
And "Within the United States, woodland caribou were listed as an endangered species in 1984," Well before wolf recovery or re-introduction. Whatever you want to call it.
The caribou project has been incredibly frustrating. Agencies and NGO's did virtually nothing to save the herd, despite warning signs as far back as 2009. States, Feds, and NGO's literally watched the herd dwindle and spent more time meeting and discussing it than anyone did on "real" on the ground solutions. By the time the wolf cull went into effect it was too late.
Further, social tolerance of endangered species has decreased so much that people now cheer against species recovery. We even see that on this forum, a place that should be a bastion of conservation minded folks. Instead, people have tended towards the fringes and real conservation outcomes are suffering. Hopefully we can get back towards the middle.
If I was to do a "lesson's learned" discussion on this project, it would start with 1) avoiding regulatory capture 2) increasing social tolerance to conservation efforts and 3) finding compromise between the fringe groups
It's a matter of values. In this case logging, other species (wolves, lions, moose and elk) and winter recreation were more important than caribou. We could have saved them in 2009, but it would have taken a shift in social values and some funding. Caribou were just a victim of circumstances.
Post by: Special T on March 27, 2019, 11:54:37 AM
Post by: ribka on March 27, 2019, 11:54:59 AM
This herd has been struggling for quite awhile. They just weren’t long for the world. I don’t see how you could pit this as wolves vs caribou. Predation was the final straw but with consitantly low numbers in the herd it was just a matter of time before something got them. I don’t think that they have numbered over 50 in this century.
Historically, within the lower 48 states, woodland caribou were once distributed from central Washington State to Glacier National Park in Montana and south to Salmon River. Additionally caribou were found within the Great Lake States and New England States such as Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine. It is not know how many caribou were found within what are now the lower 48 states, but it is likely the numbers were in the thousands.
Today, woodland caribou are found in only one location south of Canada, which are the Selkirk Mountains of northern Idaho and northeastern Washington. This small population, which historically numbered in the hundreds of caribou, has been reduced to less than 15 animals. The habitat for this small population is contiguous with adjacent British Columbia and the animals move freely across the international border.
http://scawild.org/south-selkirk-mountain-caribou/ (http://scawild.org/south-selkirk-mountain-caribou/)
Don't forget the rest of the article.
"The main threats to mountain caribou are habitat loss, predation, habitat fragmentation and degradation. Logging has removed many critical old growth and mature forests that caribou depend on and replaced them with younger early successional forests. These early successional forests attract moose, deer and elk, as well as their predators such as mountain lions, which may incidentally prey on the caribou. Before their habitat was fragmented, caribou largely avoided predation through their unique seasonal movements and by distributing themselves throughout extensive old-growth forests."
And "Within the United States, woodland caribou were listed as an endangered species in 1984," Well before wolf recovery or re-introduction. Whatever you want to call it.
The caribou project has been incredibly frustrating. Agencies and NGO's did virtually nothing to save the herd, despite warning signs as far back as 2009. States, Feds, and NGO's literally watched the herd dwindle and spent more time meeting and discussing it than anyone did on "real" on the ground solutions. By the time the wolf cull went into effect it was too late.
Further, social tolerance of endangered species has decreased so much that people now cheer against species recovery. We even see that on this forum, a place that should be a bastion of conservation minded folks. Instead, people have tended towards the fringes and real conservation outcomes are suffering. Hopefully we can get back towards the middle.
If I was to do a "lesson's learned" discussion on this project, it would start with 1) avoiding regulatory capture 2) increasing social tolerance to conservation efforts and 3) finding compromise between the fringe groups
It's a matter of values. In this case logging, other species (wolves, lions, moose and elk) and winter recreation were more important than caribou. We could have saved them in 2009, but it would have taken a shift in social values and some funding. Caribou were just a victim of circumstances.
Post by: Stein on March 27, 2019, 12:21:30 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on March 27, 2019, 12:40:00 PM
Explain how (using actual data and facts).
Caribou were a victim of dangerous radical left wing anti hunting , pro predator groups like howling for wolves , Sierra club and conservation NW if were going to be completely truthful here.
Post by: The Big Game Hunter on April 01, 2019, 12:32:11 PM
Post by: bearpaw on April 01, 2019, 01:36:20 PM
Arguable: If as much money was spent transplanting caribou as wolves, and if predators were more heavily managed, lower 48 caribou could number in the hundreds!
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 01, 2019, 02:25:42 PM
Fact: It was a struggling caribou herd until cougar hound hunting was closed and wolves were introduced in Idaho, now they are an extinct herd!It was an endangered caribou herd in the 1980's when hound hunters were running cougars in BC, ID, and WA.
Arguable: If as much money was spent transplanting caribou as wolves, and if predators were more heavily managed, lower 48 caribou could number in the hundreds!
I agree that caribou recovery was terribly underfunded. We can look at that from a few angles. You're right by saying if we spent the same amount on caribou as we did on wolves we could have been successful. I think that is absolutely true.
Another way to look at it: if we spent the revenue from one timber harvest on caribou recovery we could have been successful... but that never happened
Its easy to look back with clear vision, but this didn't sneak up on us. Habitat destruction is the ultimate factor in the decline, we needed time to manage predators and highway mortality to keep the herd on life support, but if the habitat is not restored or headed towards restoration nothing we could have done would have been successful over time.
Post by: Machias on April 01, 2019, 03:03:44 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on April 01, 2019, 03:42:52 PM
Post by: Bob33 on April 01, 2019, 03:48:13 PM
Post by: idaho guy on April 01, 2019, 04:05:05 PM
I absolutely, 100%, do NOT believe that "habitat destruction is the ultimate factor" in the decline and eventual loss of this herd. :twocents:
:yeah:
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 01, 2019, 06:15:14 PM
Habitat change has occurred from the valley bottoms through the mid elevation forests all the way to the high country. What that has done is removed the old growth forest where the Caribou lived (basically alone) and replaced it with new growth, which is what elk and moose prefer.
The population expansion of elk and moose into higher elevation areas is what allows wolves to make a living at higher elevation than they would have historically.
So, while wolves can't sustain themselves on just a few Caribou, their interaction rates are higher than they ever would have been due to habitat change and the small, less fecund population of caribou can't support that kind of predation.
It's habitat change.
Post by: bearpaw on April 01, 2019, 06:43:18 PM
Fact: It was a struggling caribou herd until cougar hound hunting was closed and wolves were introduced in Idaho, now they are an extinct herd!It was an endangered caribou herd in the 1980's when hound hunters were running cougars in BC, ID, and WA.
Arguable: If as much money was spent transplanting caribou as wolves, and if predators were more heavily managed, lower 48 caribou could number in the hundreds!
I agree that caribou recovery was terribly underfunded. We can look at that from a few angles. You're right by saying if we spent the same amount on caribou as we did on wolves we could have been successful. I think that is absolutely true.
Another way to look at it: if we spent the revenue from one timber harvest on caribou recovery we could have been successful... but that never happened
Its easy to look back with clear vision, but this didn't sneak up on us. Habitat destruction is the ultimate factor in the decline, we needed time to manage predators and highway mortality to keep the herd on life support, but if the habitat is not restored or headed towards restoration nothing we could have done would have been successful over time.
This wasn't your fault, my fault, or members of this forum fault. I know you put time in on the caribou and I appreciate that, at least some people in this state cared. :tup:
When the wolf plan was being developed I wrote a very detailed letter to the WDFW commission and director mentioning the caribou and moose as a primary point of concern, but they showed no concern, the WDFW chose to turn their backs on our caribou and moose in favor of wolves. I figure WDFW and the USFWS are the primary fails, they were more interested in promoting wolves and mostly ignored the caribou and other ungulates. I do remember an attempt to shut out human use in caribou country while doing little or nothing about predators. Maybe there is more than I know that was attempted done, but to my knowledge this is a WDFW and USFWS total fail. If I remember correctly shortly after the wolves over populated the NRM states the former director of USFWS (Jamie Rappaport Clark) quit the USFWS to head of one of the major wolf groups, go figure!
Post by: bearpaw on April 01, 2019, 06:57:14 PM
How do you explain wolves and Caribou living in the same general area for the last 10000 years?
Habitat change has occurred from the valley bottoms through the mid elevation forests all the way to the high country. What that has done is removed the old growth forest where the Caribou lived (basically alone) and replaced it with new growth, which is what elk and moose prefer.
The population expansion of elk and moose into higher elevation areas is what allows wolves to make a living at higher elevation than they would have historically.
So, while wolves can't sustain themselves on just a few Caribou, their interaction rates are higher than they ever would have been due to habitat change and the small, less fecund population of caribou can't support that kind of predation.
It's habitat change.
I don't buy the idea that logging is the main problem. There is no logging in the Frank Church or the Bob Marshall yet wolves are impacting herds in those backcountry areas. Isle Royale is a park but it's been an up and down cycle for both moose and wolves. Considering that Alaska and Canadian provinces have done wolf control to help herds in certain areas on numerous occasions, I think if hound hunters had been used to remove cougars and trappers used to remove wolves, that we might still have caribou in the Selkirks?
We'll never know if predator management could have worked because wolves were held above all other wildlife as being the most important specie, all other species were expendable to promote wolves.
Post by: idaho guy on April 01, 2019, 07:16:48 PM
Post by: KFhunter on April 01, 2019, 07:17:05 PM
indirectly.
The logging made the new growth timber better suited for elk and moose, which brought in wolves and exposed the caribou to them.
The caribou never went hungry due to habitat change and logging so it didn't affect them directly, there was always more old growth timber than they could utilize ( I know, I seen miles and miles and miles of it!) growing more moss and lichen than they could ever eat, and that's still true, if there were any left to eat it that is.
That old growth timber full of moss and lichen isn't much good for other ungulates other than caribou, and when it was vast and not logged it kept a huge buffer zone of crappy hunting for wolves and cats, which moved lower chasing deer, elk moose. So caribou did ok in their isolated and vast wasteland of old growth timber.
Now smaller buffer zones due to logging, and wolves found them.
We could have made up for the smaller buffer zones of old growth timber by not protecting predators so dang much and the caribou could have kept doing ok.
and I've been in around them, seen a dozen of them perhaps, but won't ever see them again. It's a shame.
Post by: MtnMuley on April 01, 2019, 10:45:33 PM
Post by: KFhunter on April 01, 2019, 10:56:13 PM
I'm sure the logging and habitat loss played a certain part in their downfall, but there are plenty of other mountain (woodland) caribou herds throughout Canada that are doing extremely well these days and they don't have 1/100th the forests of this particular herd.
I dunno, there's massive amounts of untouched forests in Canada. I think of them like the Canadian lynx, here the lower 48 is the outer fringes of their range, and we're trying to protect them down here when they're doing just fine a bit north, deeper in their home ranges, like the Caribou are doing much better further north.
It would be like Canada trying to protect Pronghorn in Alberta and Saskatchewan, when really they only went a little ways into Canada anyways and there's plenty down here in the US.
Really, we only ever had a small pocket of them to begin with. The fringes of any species's habitat is where you'll find them struggling first.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/46/Rangifer_tarandus_Map_NA.svg/800px-Rangifer_tarandus_Map_NA.svg.png)
Post by: KFhunter on April 01, 2019, 11:04:50 PM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 02, 2019, 07:53:03 AM
I agree that we could have kept caribou on the landscape and recovering if we would have been heavy handed in predator management. Actually, I have no doubt that that's the case. But that does not mean that predators are the cause of decline. They are a symptom of the larger issue, which is habitat change. We could have killed all the wolves and lions out of the Selkirks and kept caribou on the landscape, but it would not be sustainable unless we were managing a number of other factors, including logging, winter access, and hwy mortality...not to mention genetic bottleneck.How do you explain wolves and Caribou living in the same general area for the last 10000 years?
Habitat change has occurred from the valley bottoms through the mid elevation forests all the way to the high country. What that has done is removed the old growth forest where the Caribou lived (basically alone) and replaced it with new growth, which is what elk and moose prefer.
The population expansion of elk and moose into higher elevation areas is what allows wolves to make a living at higher elevation than they would have historically.
So, while wolves can't sustain themselves on just a few Caribou, their interaction rates are higher than they ever would have been due to habitat change and the small, less fecund population of caribou can't support that kind of predation.
It's habitat change.
I don't buy the idea that logging is the main problem. There is no logging in the Frank Church or the Bob Marshall yet wolves are impacting herds in those backcountry areas. Isle Royale is a park but it's been an up and down cycle for both moose and wolves. Considering that Alaska and Canadian provinces have done wolf control to help herds in certain areas on numerous occasions, I think if hound hunters had been used to remove cougars and trappers used to remove wolves, that we might still have caribou in the Selkirks?
We'll never know if predator management could have worked because wolves were held above all other wildlife as being the most important specie, all other species were expendable to promote wolves.
Moose and caribou are very different animals. Caribou did not adapt/evolve with many predators and their predator avoidance tactics do not work in the current situation. They don't reproduce as early in life as deer/elk/moose and caribou only have one calf per year.
Caribou are a victim of habitat change. (the habitat is still there, it isn't lost :chuckle: but it is better suited for other species due to logging)yes
indirectly.
The logging made the new growth timber better suited for elk and moose, which brought in wolves and exposed the caribou to them.
The caribou never went hungry due to habitat change and logging so it didn't affect them directly, there was always more old growth timber than they could utilize ( I know, I seen miles and miles and miles of it!) growing more moss and lichen than they could ever eat, and that's still true, if there were any left to eat it that is.
Post by: KFhunter on April 02, 2019, 07:56:07 AM
The logging was already done and scaled way back in later years
access (motorized) was greatly restricted and completely eliminated in a lot of area.
Really the only thing left that could have been done was predator management. Without predator management I wasn't in favor of re-location. No since taking animals out of Canada and feeding them to our predators, that would be dumb.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 02, 2019, 08:13:04 AM
BC logging is still happening in the caribou recovery area, but there are some big pieces of protected habitat.
Since this is a transboundary herd we are inclined to help wherever we can. The HWY issue is in BC, but the Tribes worked pretty hard to get reader boards and signs to alert motorists when caribou were near.
I'm sure the logging and habitat loss played a certain part in their downfall, but there are plenty of other mountain (woodland) caribou herds throughout Canada that are doing extremely well these days and they don't have 1/100th the forests of this particular herd.
That's not true. Most of the mountain caribou herds are in decline. The only ones that are increasing are being pretty intensively managed.
Post by: KFhunter on April 02, 2019, 08:37:36 AM
Quote
protections are adequate on our side of the border.
Thank you.
We did our part with habitat protections here in WA, but without predator management.......the herd didn't stand a chance.
As for what goes on in BC and greater Canada we can't help that, the tribes have way more pull than most so I applaud their efforts for sure.
Post by: buglebrush on April 02, 2019, 11:29:09 AM
The final sentence is a true head-scratcher. Why do people like you feel you have to add this? Why is aggressive predator management never pushed? Let's be honest. Groups like Conservation Northwest are more interested in power above all else, and aggressive predator management simply doesn't fit their end game.
My family moved onto our property in North Idaho in 1989, and we occasionally saw Caribou on our property the first few years. Moose & Mule Deer were extremely plentiful! Many of our neighbors surprised us by their attitude towards predators. If you saw a bear, coyote, or mountain lion it died. Nobody cared about seasons, tags, etc... The attitude was that people were doing their part in management. When we first moved in Wolves were unheard of. Now it's super rare to see moose, haven't seen a mule-deer on that property in many many years, but we do have wolves, cougars, black bears, and grizzly bears regularly on all our game cameras. Can't spend a weekend hunting anywhere in the Selkirks without running into wolf sign. Wolves were the tipping point that pushed us into a predator pit, and it's largely the fault of government & conservation groups who have continually lied and blamed the minor side issues when we could've tackled the issue head on with aggressive predator management. I wonder what they'll use to try and control us now that the Caribou are no longer a viable option?
Post by: bearpaw on April 02, 2019, 11:33:02 AM
Quoteprotections are adequate on our side of the border.
Thank you.
We did our part with habitat protections here in WA, but without predator management.......the herd didn't stand a chance.
As for what goes on in BC and greater Canada we can't help that, the tribes have way more pull than most so I applaud their efforts for sure.
:yeah:
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 02, 2019, 12:50:16 PM
" I agree that we could have kept caribou on the landscape and recovering if we would have been heavy handed in predator management. Actually, I have no doubt that that's the case. But that does not mean that predators are the cause of decline. " - WACoyotehunterYou didn't put the entire quote... the wolf population there is a symptom of the highly altered habitat.
The final sentence is a true head-scratcher. Why do people like you feel you have to add this? Why is aggressive predator management never pushed? Let's be honest. Groups like Conservation Northwest are more interested in power above all else, and aggressive predator management simply doesn't fit their end game.
Imagine for a second that we had never logged NE WA, N Idaho and South BC, do you think caribou would be in the same situation? Do you think we would have as many wolves, or deer/elk/moose, which are the primary prey for wolves?
It is a bit of a head scratcher. Lots of issues are complicated and simple answer (blame wolves) doesn't address the underlying causes of the problem. "People like me" add this to invoke some real thought into the issue, which is more complicated that people generally realize.
Post by: KFhunter on April 02, 2019, 01:08:52 PM
Post by: buglebrush on April 02, 2019, 03:15:05 PM
" I agree that we could have kept caribou on the landscape and recovering if we would have been heavy handed in predator management. Actually, I have no doubt that that's the case. But that does not mean that predators are the cause of decline. " - WACoyotehunterYou didn't put the entire quote... the wolf population there is a symptom of the highly altered habitat.
The final sentence is a true head-scratcher. Why do people like you feel you have to add this? Why is aggressive predator management never pushed? Let's be honest. Groups like Conservation Northwest are more interested in power above all else, and aggressive predator management simply doesn't fit their end game.
Imagine for a second that we had never logged NE WA, N Idaho and South BC, do you think caribou would be in the same situation? Do you think we would have as many wolves, or deer/elk/moose, which are the primary prey for wolves?
It is a bit of a head scratcher. Lots of issues are complicated and simple answer (blame wolves) doesn't address the underlying causes of the problem. "People like me" add this to invoke some real thought into the issue, which is more complicated that people generally realize.
By the late 80's the majority of the logging had already happened. Even if what you say is true, by then the best and most necessary action was/is aggressive predator management. You're simply strengthening my point.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 02, 2019, 04:57:19 PM
Lions were shown to be a problem in the 90's collaring project. Wolves re appeared in 2009.
After logging was done and the habitat was screwed we should have killed predators to make up for that? Ok.
Post by: Jake Dogfish on April 02, 2019, 05:32:14 PM
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make?
Lions were shown to be a problem in the 90's collaring project. Wolves re appeared in 2009.
After logging was done and the habitat was screwed we should have killed predators to make up for that? Ok.
Yes we should have. Wether it would have helped is a different question.
One problem we have is the big money in environmentalism is selling support for top predators while Caribou, rabbits, plants and insects face a quiet extinction.