Selkirk Caribou Herd officially declared extinct

[Stein]

I’m sure WDFW is working on a reintroduction plan, I would expect public meetings any day.


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[WAcoyotehunter]

Caribou were a victim of dangerous radical left wing anti hunting , pro predator groups like howling for wolves , Sierra club and conservation NW if were going to be completely truthful here.

Explain how (using actual data and facts).

[The Big Game Hunter]

very sad news

[bearpaw]

Fact: It was a struggling caribou herd until cougar hound hunting was closed and wolves were introduced in Idaho, now they are an extinct herd!

Arguable: If as much money was spent transplanting caribou as wolves, and if predators were more heavily managed, lower 48 caribou could number in the hundreds!

[WAcoyotehunter]

Fact: It was a struggling caribou herd until cougar hound hunting was closed and wolves were introduced in Idaho, now they are an extinct herd!

Arguable: If as much money was spent transplanting caribou as wolves, and if predators were more heavily managed, lower 48 caribou could number in the hundreds!

It was an endangered caribou herd in the 1980's when hound hunters were running cougars in BC, ID, and WA. 

I agree that caribou recovery was terribly underfunded.  We can look at that from a few angles.  You're right by saying if we spent the same amount on caribou as we did on wolves we could have been successful.  I think that is absolutely true.

Another way to look at it: if we spent the revenue from one timber harvest on caribou recovery we could have been successful... but that never happened

Its easy to look back with clear vision, but this didn't sneak up on us.  Habitat destruction is the ultimate factor in the decline, we needed time to manage predators and highway mortality to keep the herd on life support, but if the habitat is not restored or headed towards restoration nothing we could have done would have been successful over time. 

[Machias]

I'm only asking because I'm totally ignorant on the habitat topic, but the Selkirk Wilderness area was not big enough for the herd to sustain itself?

[MtnMuley]

I absolutely, 100%, do NOT believe that "habitat destruction is the ultimate factor" in the decline and eventual loss of this herd. 

[Bob33]

Blaming habitat loss for the extirpation of a specie is akin to blaming the field goal kicker for losing a football game: everyone ignores what happened in the first 59 minutes and 55 seconds.

[idaho guy]

I absolutely, 100%, do NOT believe that "habitat destruction is the ultimate factor" in the decline and eventual loss of this herd. 

 

[WAcoyotehunter]

How do you explain wolves and Caribou living in the same general area for the last 10000 years?

Habitat change has occurred from the valley bottoms through the mid elevation forests all the way to the high country. What that has done is removed the old growth forest where the Caribou lived (basically alone) and replaced it with new growth, which is what elk and moose prefer. 
The population expansion of elk and moose into higher elevation areas is what allows wolves to make a living at higher elevation than they would have historically.

So, while wolves can't sustain themselves on just a few Caribou, their interaction rates are higher than they ever would have been due to habitat change and the small, less fecund population of caribou can't support that kind of predation.

It's habitat change.

[bearpaw]

Fact: It was a struggling caribou herd until cougar hound hunting was closed and wolves were introduced in Idaho, now they are an extinct herd!

Arguable: If as much money was spent transplanting caribou as wolves, and if predators were more heavily managed, lower 48 caribou could number in the hundreds!

It was an endangered caribou herd in the 1980's when hound hunters were running cougars in BC, ID, and WA. 

I agree that caribou recovery was terribly underfunded.  We can look at that from a few angles.  You're right by saying if we spent the same amount on caribou as we did on wolves we could have been successful.  I think that is absolutely true.

Another way to look at it: if we spent the revenue from one timber harvest on caribou recovery we could have been successful... but that never happened

Its easy to look back with clear vision, but this didn't sneak up on us.  Habitat destruction is the ultimate factor in the decline, we needed time to manage predators and highway mortality to keep the herd on life support, but if the habitat is not restored or headed towards restoration nothing we could have done would have been successful over time.

This wasn't your fault, my fault, or members of this forum fault. I know you put time in on the caribou and I appreciate that, at least some people in this state cared. 

When the wolf plan was being developed I wrote a very detailed letter to the WDFW commission and director mentioning the caribou and moose as a primary point of concern, but they showed no concern, the WDFW chose to turn their backs on our caribou and moose in favor of wolves. I figure WDFW and the USFWS are the primary fails, they were more interested in promoting wolves and mostly ignored the caribou and other ungulates. I do remember an attempt to shut out human use in caribou country while doing little or nothing about predators. Maybe there is more than I know that was attempted done, but to my knowledge this is a WDFW and USFWS total fail. If I remember correctly shortly after the wolves over populated the NRM states the former director of USFWS (Jamie Rappaport Clark) quit the USFWS to head of one of the major wolf groups, go figure!

[bearpaw]

How do you explain wolves and Caribou living in the same general area for the last 10000 years?

Habitat change has occurred from the valley bottoms through the mid elevation forests all the way to the high country. What that has done is removed the old growth forest where the Caribou lived (basically alone) and replaced it with new growth, which is what elk and moose prefer. 
The population expansion of elk and moose into higher elevation areas is what allows wolves to make a living at higher elevation than they would have historically.

So, while wolves can't sustain themselves on just a few Caribou, their interaction rates are higher than they ever would have been due to habitat change and the small, less fecund population of caribou can't support that kind of predation.

It's habitat change.

I don't buy the idea that logging is the main problem. There is no logging in the Frank Church or the Bob Marshall yet wolves are impacting herds in those backcountry areas. Isle Royale is a park but it's been an up and down cycle for both moose and wolves. Considering that Alaska and Canadian provinces have done wolf control to help herds in certain areas on numerous occasions, I think if hound hunters had been used to remove cougars and trappers used to remove wolves, that we might still have caribou in the Selkirks?

We'll never know if predator management could have worked because wolves were held above all other wildlife as being the most important specie, all other species were expendable to promote wolves.

[idaho guy]

The habitat argument hinges on changing the habitat to benefit moose at the demise of the caribou.if it’s great habitat for moose with the new growth what happened to all the moose? I know ticks did it but it’s funny how the ticks decided to kill all the moose at the same time the wolves showed up. I respect that wacoyotehunter is one of the few members here that has actually seen one of the mystery caribou but kinda hard to make the argument that habitat was the X factor when the change in habitat was supposed to benefit moose over caribou and both populations plummeted. If habitat is the answer where’s the moose? Why did we have to cut tags so much last few years?

[KFhunter]

Caribou are a victim of habitat change.  (the habitat is still there, it isn't lost  but it is better suited for other species due to logging)

indirectly.

The logging made the new growth timber better suited for elk and moose, which brought in wolves and exposed the caribou to them. 
The caribou never went hungry due to habitat change and logging so it didn't affect them directly, there was always more old growth timber than they could utilize ( I know, I seen miles and miles and miles of it!) growing more moss and lichen than they could ever eat, and that's still true, if there were any left to eat it that is.

That old growth timber full of moss and lichen isn't much good for other ungulates other than caribou, and when it was vast and not logged it kept a huge buffer zone of crappy hunting for wolves and cats, which moved lower chasing deer, elk moose.   So caribou did ok in their isolated and vast wasteland of old growth timber. 

Now smaller buffer zones due to logging, and wolves found them.


We could have made up for the smaller buffer zones of old growth timber by not protecting predators so dang much and the caribou could have kept doing ok.


and I've been in around them, seen a dozen of them perhaps, but won't ever see them again.  It's a shame.

[MtnMuley]

I'm sure the logging and habitat loss played a certain part in their downfall, but there are plenty of other mountain (woodland) caribou herds throughout Canada that are doing extremely well these days and they don't have 1/100th the forests of this particular herd.