Post by: HoofsandWings on April 01, 2019, 02:41:31 PM
GMU 368 21-6 EA
GMU 360 32-6 EA
Peaches 58-10 EA
Observatory 57-20 EA
Goose P 53-7 EA
Post by: bobcat on April 01, 2019, 02:48:50 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190401/624541ef063821fc0d460803e37c67c7.jpg)
Post by: Magnum_Willys on April 01, 2019, 02:52:55 PM
Post by: Mfowl on April 01, 2019, 02:55:32 PM
Post by: Ridgerunner on April 01, 2019, 02:55:41 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 01, 2019, 03:01:45 PM
Since when did 334 become part of the Observatory? Isn't there a no branch bull restriction there? I mean for us, not holier than though Governor tag holders.
I think they might be adding bull permits for 334. It's mentioned here:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190401/976ea721de5085c6453b2c93c33d4cc2.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: bobcat on April 01, 2019, 03:02:39 PM
Wow!! What did harvest stats show? Way up or way down?
They say bull numbers are down by 50%.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190401/3e3c4cf69a90abf75be22a575d534205.jpg)
Post by: 92xj on April 01, 2019, 03:07:44 PM
Post by: Stein on April 01, 2019, 03:14:00 PM
I really can't wait for the GoHunt numbers to come out, it just may convince me to abandon ship without ever drawing a quality tag.
Seems like the only tool they mention is tag numbers. I would hope that there is a more active management than adjusting the numbers of tags every year, I could write a program in Fortran to do that.
It would be nice if they could speak to the reason in the decline, where they are vs objective and what needs to happen if we are below objective if the reason was something other than normal fluctuation, abnormal weather or something that doesn't need to be actively addressed.
Post by: Ghost Hunter on April 01, 2019, 03:14:59 PM
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 01, 2019, 03:16:56 PM
And this doesn't include the 3 months of cam pictures I got of hundreds of elk..
Post by: 92xj on April 01, 2019, 03:17:25 PM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on April 01, 2019, 03:17:48 PM
Post by: Stein on April 01, 2019, 03:20:26 PM
On another note, Montana is expanding shoulder seasons because they have too many elk.
Post by: vandeman17 on April 01, 2019, 03:26:58 PM
A reason is easy. Depredation killings in the winter of many cows that could have birthed the future population. A second reason is unregulated Indian killings. And a third for all the guys that don't own trail cameras, wolves.
:yeah:
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on April 01, 2019, 03:52:20 PM
Post by: full choke on April 01, 2019, 04:03:36 PM
Since when did 334 become part of the Observatory? Isn't there a no branch bull restriction there? I mean for us, not holier than though Governor tag holders.
I think they might be adding bull permits for 334. It's mentioned here:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190401/976ea721de5085c6453b2c93c33d4cc2.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sweet! More opportunity to shoot bulls in someone's carport!
TRFC
Post by: fly by night bear hunter on April 01, 2019, 04:16:31 PM
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Post by: Birdgetter on April 01, 2019, 04:22:58 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 01, 2019, 04:35:32 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Birdgetter on April 01, 2019, 04:35:54 PM
Pulled these from the website.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Mfowl on April 01, 2019, 04:43:44 PM
Post by: JimWA on April 01, 2019, 05:08:45 PM
Post by: Moe the Sleaze on April 01, 2019, 05:44:04 PM
Managing based on harvest results is a poor way to go IMO. Too small of a sample size. Too many variables during the hunt, beginning with weather.
It's similar to counting the homeless in Seattle. It depends on how hard you count. One year the "one night count" might show 3,800, the next it might show 1,800. The difference? Rainy night and not enough volunteers, homeless tucked deeper into their tents...it's going to give you smaller numbers. And next year, lets say they switch to a "one-week count"....do you think those numbers will be higher or lower? Duh.
My point being, we will get better management when we get better surveys. And I never hear about "surveys", all I hear about are "estimates".
Post by: Crunchy on April 01, 2019, 06:02:02 PM
Post by: gee_unit360 on April 01, 2019, 06:32:56 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 01, 2019, 07:40:06 PM
Afraid this is just the beginning, once permits go down it is tough to get them back up.unless they cancel OTC and make up the harvest with permit only.
Post by: buckfvr on April 01, 2019, 07:44:29 PM
Post by: HoofsandWings on April 01, 2019, 08:57:58 PM
Is this where you got those numbers?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190401/624541ef063821fc0d460803e37c67c7.jpg)
Yes.
BTW. Did you notice all of the early join dates in this thread?
Post by: Mr Mykiss on April 02, 2019, 08:09:08 AM
Truly absurdity.
After 10-20 years when I finally burn these 30 quality elk points I'm so outta here!!
Post by: kirkl on April 02, 2019, 08:57:05 AM
did the whole herd fall 50% or just the bulls? if the cows didnt take a dive that should say something right there.....
It looks like just bulls have fallen according to this powerpoint slide so ya, that says something. Lots of jerky being made
Post by: trophyhunt on April 02, 2019, 09:54:33 AM
Taking opportunity away from hunters to feed the predators is exactly whats up.:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: Wdfw loves their predators!
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on April 02, 2019, 11:02:11 AM
did the whole herd fall 50% or just the bulls? if the cows didnt take a dive that should say something right there.....
It looks like just bulls have fallen according to this powerpoint slide so ya, that says something. Lots of jerky being made
yep that right there tells the story...
Post by: backcountry55 on April 02, 2019, 08:26:43 PM
Post by: cem3434 on April 02, 2019, 09:18:53 PM
did the whole herd fall 50% or just the bulls? if the cows didnt take a dive that should say something right there.....
It looks like just bulls have fallen according to this powerpoint slide so ya, that says something. Lots of jerky being made
yep that right there tells the story...
:yeah: Couldnt agree more, but I'm sure many of the Yakama members will refute the data.
Post by: Colville on April 02, 2019, 10:49:43 PM
Post by: JM on April 02, 2019, 11:40:18 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 03, 2019, 05:28:56 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on April 03, 2019, 06:13:45 AM
I keep waiting for the reason there isn't a 1 elk limit in the Yakima's. If they are going to keep this, I'd prefer the WDFW recognize it can't run a herd just for the yakimas. Open the season to any elk, all of these units, all hunt methods september 1 to Dec 31. When there's no elk, the Yakima's will be willing to talk to make a legal compromise. As long as there's a huge herd that serves only their needs, why will anything change? Doubt it. Before anyone argues I'm a xenophobe, please.... do explain the limits for Yakima members, season and limts, and I'll be all ears to their argument.Myself and bobcat have said this before and I agree it's the best idea to get the tribes to the bargaining table, if anyone else has a better idea lets here it!
Post by: Mr Mykiss on April 03, 2019, 07:35:11 AM
The elk permit quotas...I'm not sure I can get over this. Like seriously I'm formulating a plan to get the hell out, burn points on lesser hunts or no hunts...I'm DEAD SERIOUS.
Post by: Stein on April 03, 2019, 08:02:31 AM
Once I was pissed about this state and their game management, then I got over it...hell I almost understood why it was so difficult for them to NOT DECIMATE the Kahlotus deer herd.
The elk permit quotas...I'm not sure I can get over this. Like seriously I'm formulating a plan to get the hell out, burn points on lesser hunts or no hunts...I'm DEAD SERIOUS.
That's where I am. I usually buy just about everything for hunting, all the licenses, all the permit draws, whole ball of wax. I had decided to just put in for elk this year as there are good cow hunts as well as wanting to draw one quality tag sometime in my lifetime.
I'll wait for the GoHunt odds to be released, if they are as bad as I think they may be, I'm done will all big game hunting in state.
There is no way to get the message across to WDFW unless we are willing to cut their revenue from licensing.
Post by: trophyhunt on April 03, 2019, 08:10:54 AM
Once I was pissed about this state and their game management, then I got over it...hell I almost understood why it was so difficult for them to NOT DECIMATE the Kahlotus deer herd.:yeah:I've been considering this since I had 10 points, now at 24 points, I really want out. Once drawn, I'm done.
The elk permit quotas...I'm not sure I can get over this. Like seriously I'm formulating a plan to get the hell out, burn points on lesser hunts or no hunts...I'm DEAD SERIOUS.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on April 03, 2019, 08:20:39 AM
Quote
:yeah:I've been considering this since I had 10 points, now at 24 points, I really want out. Once drawn, I'm done.We all are saying this but the odds of us getting drawn keep going down. So with worse odds every year wdfw is keeping us around.....
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 03, 2019, 08:35:14 AM
:yeah: WDFW can basically take it down to 1 permit; and since they have so many people caught in the game, those people will pay as long as there is even a remote chance. It's like a perpetuity for WDFW. :yike:Quote:yeah:I've been considering this since I had 10 points, now at 24 points, I really want out. Once drawn, I'm done.We all are saying this but the odds of us getting drawn keep going down. So with worse odds every year wdfw is keeping us around.....
Post by: Mr Mykiss on April 03, 2019, 08:55:43 AM
I'll wait for the GoHunt odds to be released, if they are as bad as I think they may be, I'm done will all big game hunting in state.PM me the hunts and your point totals and I'll tell you...this is exciting...I hope you only have like 7 points...your odds are gonna be HORRIBLE!!!!
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 03, 2019, 08:57:54 AM
If all the level leader, experienced, and knowledgable folks up and quit this forum would that make it a better place? NOPE! Will quitting washington hunting completely fix its issues and turn the tide for the species we all love? HELL NO! State funding is a bit more complicated than license dollars= agency funds. I know that some of you know this but just like to complain.
Ignoring a problem doesnt solve the problem. I'd bet all my western tags that a good chunk of the loudest complainers have never written, called, emailed, or attended a fish a game meeting. If we all spent an 1/8th of the time that we spend on here, doing those things the picture may be a bit brighter. But we don't. We complain, blame things that aren't a factor, spout misingormation and never EVER look in the mirror.
Never quit. If there is a problem then work to fix it. If you stop participating you fast track the end of hunting for future generations. That's a selfish thing to do. If there's no hunters, then there is no hunting. Plain and simple :twocents:
Tell me how I'm wrong. I'll wait.......
Post by: Mr Mykiss on April 03, 2019, 08:58:27 AM
I have 28 points and my odds are so bad that I always include a buddy on my app because the odds between 28 and 17 points are pretty much equally a crap burrito sandwich!!Once I was pissed about this state and their game management, then I got over it...hell I almost understood why it was so difficult for them to NOT DECIMATE the Kahlotus deer herd.:yeah:I've been considering this since I had 10 points, now at 24 points, I really want out. Once drawn, I'm done.
The elk permit quotas...I'm not sure I can get over this. Like seriously I'm formulating a plan to get the hell out, burn points on lesser hunts or no hunts...I'm DEAD SERIOUS.
Post by: Mfowl on April 03, 2019, 09:02:14 AM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on April 03, 2019, 09:04:01 AM
This always cracks me up. You guys will drop 20 on lotto, buy a $10 ticket at a sportsmans show to win some cheap rifle but $13 at a chance to win a kick ass hunt is just gonna break the bank?
If all the level leader, experienced, and knowledgable folks up and quit this forum would that make it a better place? NOPE! Will quitting washington hunting completely fix its issues and turn the tide for the species we all love? HELL NO! State funding is a bit more complicated than license dollars= agency funds. I know that some of you know this but just like to complain.
Ignoring a problem doesnt solve the problem. I'd bet all my western tags that a good chunk of the loudest complainers have never written, called, emailed, or attended a fish a game meeting. If we all spent an 1/8th of the time that we spend on here, doing those things the picture may be a bit brighter. But we don't. We complain, blame things that aren't a factor, spout misingormation and never EVER look in the mirror.
Never quit. If there is a problem then work to fix it. If you stop participating you fast track the end of hunting for future generations. That's a selfish thing to do. If there's no hunters, then there is no hunting. Plain and simple :twocents:
Tell me how I'm wrong. I'll wait.......
:tup: I was waiting for that. :chuckle:
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 03, 2019, 09:05:43 AM
I have 28 points and my odds are so bad that I always include a buddy on my app because the odds between 28 and 17 points are pretty much equally a crap burrito sandwich!!Once I was pissed about this state and their game management, then I got over it...hell I almost understood why it was so difficult for them to NOT DECIMATE the Kahlotus deer herd.:yeah:I've been considering this since I had 10 points, now at 24 points, I really want out. Once drawn, I'm done.
The elk permit quotas...I'm not sure I can get over this. Like seriously I'm formulating a plan to get the hell out, burn points on lesser hunts or no hunts...I'm DEAD SERIOUS.
Ill buddy up with ya..I tend to draw some sort of permit every year or two...My luck and your points... :tup:
Post by: Mr Mykiss on April 03, 2019, 09:07:24 AM
I think it's the frustration coming through and transitioning from constant bitching (like 7th grade girls) to actually being done with this state.
I call people and harass the hell out of WDFW all the time.
If my kids wanna hunt I'll probably buy a deer tag.
However me, myself and I...would I rather spend $1000 to hunt a good buck and branched antlered bull in Idaho rather than $350 in WA for the headache and constant reminder of WA's game management...you betcha!!
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 03, 2019, 09:15:10 AM
Once again, tell me how quitting this state will benefit future generations of hunters and the ungulate population of Washington? or am I the only one that actually cares about that more than filling tag,......
Post by: Mr Mykiss on April 03, 2019, 09:18:55 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190401/624541ef063821fc0d460803e37c67c7.jpg)Let's not forget that the 2018 numbers were a 50% reduction from 2017 numbers!!
What's that an 88% reduction in two years??!!
Have a nice day :)
Post by: BULLBLASTER on April 03, 2019, 09:19:30 AM
The price of a deer and elk combo and a few permit apps is less than $350 sir. Personally the price paid for the chance at a good tag and for my head to be counted is worth it. I promise you, if we stopped participating even if it's on a limited scale then we will see the end of hunting in our lifetime. how cowardly and selfish would that be of us to take everything our fathers and grandfathers work for to build the North American model of big game and conservation and just piss it all away because we did not have the intestinal fortitude that they did to fight the fight.:yeah:
Once again, tell me how quitting this state will benefit future generations of hunters and the ungulate population of Washington? or am I the only one that actually cares about that more than filling tag,......
Post by: Mr Mykiss on April 03, 2019, 09:26:10 AM
Once again, tell me how quitting this state will benefit future generations of hunters and the ungulate population of Washington?I think that's the thing dude. The thought of pulling the plug on WA it just that...it's dying and it's gonna die so just let it go. I believe that's the thought process behind quitting but I may be wrong.
I'm also up for any organized effort to help stop the death of hunting in WA. But I have no doubt in my mind that the 2022 season will see 17 total bull tags in the Yakima herd and 12 total in the blues.
Post by: KB88 on April 03, 2019, 09:29:05 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 03, 2019, 09:40:36 AM
Post by: Mfowl on April 03, 2019, 09:41:22 AM
The price of a deer and elk combo and a few permit apps is less than $350 sir. Personally the price paid for the chance at a good tag and for my head to be counted is worth it. I promise you, if we stopped participating even if it's on a limited scale then we will see the end of hunting in our lifetime. how cowardly and selfish would that be of us to take everything our fathers and grandfathers work for to build the North American model of big game and conservation and just piss it all away because we did not have the intestinal fortitude that they did to fight the fight.
Once again, tell me how quitting this state will benefit future generations of hunters and the ungulate population of Washington? or am I the only one that actually cares about that more than filling tag,......
How long do you think hunting will last given our current state of affairs? It may not be there for the future generations as is. I don't want to stop hunting the state I am born and raised in but I want to send a message to WDFW. You can't blame the average joe hunter for the current state of our big game populations and WDFW doesn't appear to be trying solve the problem, just managing it as it dwindles. Why should anyone pony up for less than ever before? WDFW needs to step up and show that they are committed to improvement of big game populations. All I can tell is that they are committed to raking sportsmen over the coals while giving back as little as possible. I don't blame anyone for getting out and looking for greener pastures elsewhere, you only get so many seasons in your lifetime. WDFW seems to only care about the money, so why not make that the catalyst for change?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on April 03, 2019, 09:47:58 AM
You said it yourself that you only get so many season to hunt. That is true. Why would you not make the modest expenditure to apply for the quality bull hunts in wa for the chance you could draw and have a great hunt?The price of a deer and elk combo and a few permit apps is less than $350 sir. Personally the price paid for the chance at a good tag and for my head to be counted is worth it. I promise you, if we stopped participating even if it's on a limited scale then we will see the end of hunting in our lifetime. how cowardly and selfish would that be of us to take everything our fathers and grandfathers work for to build the North American model of big game and conservation and just piss it all away because we did not have the intestinal fortitude that they did to fight the fight.
Once again, tell me how quitting this state will benefit future generations of hunters and the ungulate population of Washington? or am I the only one that actually cares about that more than filling tag,......
How long do you think hunting will last given our current state of affairs? It may not be there for the future generations as is. I don't want to stop hunting the state I am born and raised in but I want to send a message to WDFW. You can't blame the average joe hunter for the current state of our big game populations and WDFW doesn't appear to be trying solve the problem, just managing it as it dwindles. Why should anyone pony up for less than ever before? WDFW needs to step up and show that they are committed to improvement of big game populations. All I can tell is that they are committed to raking sportsmen over the coals while giving back as little as possible. I don't blame anyone for getting out and looking for greener pastures elsewhere, you only get so many seasons in your lifetime. WDFW seems to only care about the money, so why not make that the catalyst for change?
There is no cheaper place to apply for hunts than wa if you are already a resident here. :twocents:
Post by: Mfowl on April 03, 2019, 10:09:02 AM
You said it yourself that you only get so many season to hunt. That is true. Why would you not make the modest expenditure to apply for the quality bull hunts in wa for the chance you could draw and have a great hunt?The price of a deer and elk combo and a few permit apps is less than $350 sir. Personally the price paid for the chance at a good tag and for my head to be counted is worth it. I promise you, if we stopped participating even if it's on a limited scale then we will see the end of hunting in our lifetime. how cowardly and selfish would that be of us to take everything our fathers and grandfathers work for to build the North American model of big game and conservation and just piss it all away because we did not have the intestinal fortitude that they did to fight the fight.
Once again, tell me how quitting this state will benefit future generations of hunters and the ungulate population of Washington? or am I the only one that actually cares about that more than filling tag,......
How long do you think hunting will last given our current state of affairs? It may not be there for the future generations as is. I don't want to stop hunting the state I am born and raised in but I want to send a message to WDFW. You can't blame the average joe hunter for the current state of our big game populations and WDFW doesn't appear to be trying solve the problem, just managing it as it dwindles. Why should anyone pony up for less than ever before? WDFW needs to step up and show that they are committed to improvement of big game populations. All I can tell is that they are committed to raking sportsmen over the coals while giving back as little as possible. I don't blame anyone for getting out and looking for greener pastures elsewhere, you only get so many seasons in your lifetime. WDFW seems to only care about the money, so why not make that the catalyst for change?
There is no cheaper place to apply for hunts than wa if you are already a resident here. :twocents:
Given that our permits have dropped off a cliff it is no longer a modest expenditure. It now becomes a considerable expenditure for a miniscule chance at a tag.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 03, 2019, 10:11:33 AM
I am as frustrated as anyone on this forum! I've got max points for everything but elk and moose! I guess taking my all and going home isn't something I'm very good at.
Coach has a saying....."the result of doing nothing is nothing". Complaining on the internet is the same as doing nothing. :twocents:
Post by: dvolmer on April 03, 2019, 10:12:09 AM
I have 28 points and my odds are so bad that I always include a buddy on my app because the odds between 28 and 17 points are pretty much equally a crap burrito sandwich!!Once I was pissed about this state and their game management, then I got over it...hell I almost understood why it was so difficult for them to NOT DECIMATE the Kahlotus deer herd.:yeah:I've been considering this since I had 10 points, now at 24 points, I really want out. Once drawn, I'm done.
The elk permit quotas...I'm not sure I can get over this. Like seriously I'm formulating a plan to get the hell out, burn points on lesser hunts or no hunts...I'm DEAD SERIOUS.
Entries in the pot with 28 points is 784. Entries in the pot with 17 points is 289. Yes the odds are terrible, but you would have twice the chance of drawing with your 28 instead of the 17. On top of that, if you entered with your 28 points and 784 entries and your buddy put in with his assumed 17 points and 289 entries that would give the two of you 1073 entries that ONE of you (not both) would get drawn. That is what we do. We all put in separately because getting a super quality tag ever so often is better than all of us getting it the same year and trying to fill the all of the tags with quality animals. When one draws the entire group can help him or her have the hunt of a lifetime. Now with all of that said, if there are very many quality animals left on public land in Washington is open for debate. I'm still in that out of state is where you need to go but that can be tough too if you don't have good options and info.
Post by: Mr Mykiss on April 03, 2019, 10:32:06 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on April 03, 2019, 10:35:19 AM
Post by: Stein on April 03, 2019, 11:00:41 AM
I’ve attended a meeting, made several phone calls to talk to Wdfw, bitching is about all we can do. At those meetings you just get a chance to vent, Wdfw has already made up their minds, they just want us to think they care about our concerns. I’m ok with the bitching, plenty of reasons to. I still haven’t heard a better solution to manage the tribes other than to open up the seasons in the Yakima area to all weapons to any deer/elk sept-feb! You know dang well they will want to talk when all the elk and deer are gone in that area.
Not buying licenses is something you can do.
Post by: elkrack on April 03, 2019, 11:03:46 AM
I’ve attended a meeting, made several phone calls to talk to Wdfw, bitching is about all we can do. At those meetings you just get a chance to vent, Wdfw has already made up their minds, they just want us to think they care about our concerns. I’m ok with the bitching, plenty of reasons to. I still haven’t heard a better solution to manage the tribes other than to open up the seasons in the Yakima area to all weapons to any deer/elk sept-feb! You know dang well they will want to talk when all the elk and deer are gone in that area.
Not buying licenses is something you can do.
Jerry has to many points not to buy licenses :chuckle:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 03, 2019, 11:05:27 AM
but how will that help? Everyone tosses that out but how would that help?I’ve attended a meeting, made several phone calls to talk to Wdfw, bitching is about all we can do. At those meetings you just get a chance to vent, Wdfw has already made up their minds, they just want us to think they care about our concerns. I’m ok with the bitching, plenty of reasons to. I still haven’t heard a better solution to manage the tribes other than to open up the seasons in the Yakima area to all weapons to any deer/elk sept-feb! You know dang well they will want to talk when all the elk and deer are gone in that area.
Not buying licenses is something you can do.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 03, 2019, 11:08:03 AM
Jerry's points mean very little for the tags he's been trying to get. I've been telling him he's a John Denver loving idiot for a few years now for not looking at some other weapon/gmu options :chuckle:I’ve attended a meeting, made several phone calls to talk to Wdfw, bitching is about all we can do. At those meetings you just get a chance to vent, Wdfw has already made up their minds, they just want us to think they care about our concerns. I’m ok with the bitching, plenty of reasons to. I still haven’t heard a better solution to manage the tribes other than to open up the seasons in the Yakima area to all weapons to any deer/elk sept-feb! You know dang well they will want to talk when all the elk and deer are gone in that area.
Not buying licenses is something you can do.
Jerry has to many points not to buy licenses :chuckle:
Post by: Stein on April 03, 2019, 11:12:12 AM
but how will that help? Everyone tosses that out but how would that help?I’ve attended a meeting, made several phone calls to talk to Wdfw, bitching is about all we can do. At those meetings you just get a chance to vent, Wdfw has already made up their minds, they just want us to think they care about our concerns. I’m ok with the bitching, plenty of reasons to. I still haven’t heard a better solution to manage the tribes other than to open up the seasons in the Yakima area to all weapons to any deer/elk sept-feb! You know dang well they will want to talk when all the elk and deer are gone in that area.
Not buying licenses is something you can do.
When you buy a license, that gives WDFW money to spend on stuff like the destruction of waterfowl habitat, salaries and in general supports their mission.
Without hunters and fishermen, there would be no WDFW, a fact they ignore today.
The way I see it is the only two options to bring about change are to pull funding or start suing them like most other groups.
We have all been to the meetings and the decisions are made and they are just there to check some boxes and lie in reports about getting feedback and buy-in. Writing letters, calling your congressmen and hoping the new director will change things simply won't work in this state.
Post by: Mr Mykiss on April 03, 2019, 11:13:38 AM
but how will that help? Everyone tosses that out but how would that help?I dunno...march on Olympia? I think that would only work (AKA, get our voices heard and a news story or three)
I think it'd only work if there were like 2,000 of us
If we hit 2,000 I'll happily get arrested for "willful insubordination" or whatever it is they'll hit me with for carrying my sign and screaming...
Post by: 2MANY on April 03, 2019, 11:18:03 AM
Screaming like an entitled trust funder is all the norm in the capitol city these days.
You can thank The Evergreen State Collage and all the liberalness it has brought.
Post by: jstone on April 03, 2019, 11:25:07 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 03, 2019, 11:26:12 AM
Coach has a saying....."the result of doing nothing is nothing". Complaining on the internet is the same as doing nothing. :twocents:But it does the same amount of good to complain on the internet as it does to e-mail, go to meetings, contact your Rep, whatever. WHY? Because they have their minds made up way before you open your mouth and say one word. They ask for public input per the WAC's but no where in there does is say they have to adhere to that input. People will just get upset sooner or later and say F%#@ it!!
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 03, 2019, 11:26:43 AM
Post by: MtnMuley on April 03, 2019, 11:34:57 AM
Coach has a saying....."the result of doing nothing is nothing". Complaining on the internet is the same as doing nothing. :twocents:But it does the same amount of good to complain on the internet as it does to e-mail, go to meetings, contact your Rep, whatever. WHY? Because they have their minds made up way before you open your mouth and say one word. They ask for public input per the WAC's but no where in there does is say they have to adhere to that input. People will just get upset sooner or later and say F%#@ it!!
That's exactly what I have done, because attending meetings, sending emails, and presenting logical facts based on true observations over thousands of hours in the field is meaningless when their true agenda is already made up. I understand that might be selfish for future generations, which I've vest a lot of time in, but that's the stance I'm taking these days. It's flat out not going to get better folks unless a WDFW is wiped clean of the "trash" in there now.
Post by: Stein on April 03, 2019, 11:35:25 AM
Anyone that wants to stop buying license's as a power play move to force the state manage our resources better ever stop to think that maybe that's what the state wants. It's not like the state is going to beg people to buy license's. They will find ways to bring in revenue or reduce the need for revenue by cutting opportunities / access etc.
Do you think Olympia would be excited about having to cut a huge check to make up for the shortfall? At this point, WDFW not doing things would be an improvement in many instances.
Trust me, if they see their budget going down year over year, it won't be sustainable for them to not address at least enough issues to get people back buying licenses. Only 48% of their budget comes from Olympia and the Wildlife Account.
It's clear they can ignore the screaming as long as we keep sending checks in. They respond to politics, lawsuits and funding.
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 03, 2019, 12:10:03 PM
Anyone that wants to stop buying license's as a power play move to force the state manage our resources better ever stop to think that maybe that's what the state wants. It's not like the state is going to beg people to buy license's. They will find ways to bring in revenue or reduce the need for revenue by cutting opportunities / access etc.
Do you think Olympia would be excited about having to cut a huge check to make up for the shortfall? At this point, WDFW not doing things would be an improvement in many instances.
Trust me, if they see their budget going down year over year, it won't be sustainable for them to not address at least enough issues to get people back buying licenses. Only 48% of their budget comes from Olympia and the Wildlife Account.
It's clear they can ignore the screaming as long as we keep sending checks in. They respond to politics, lawsuits and funding.
I honestly don't think they care... its my opinion that this state doesn't really care if people hunt or fish.
Do you think the huge number of cow tags a few years ago was because of management objectives or a way to start a reduction of the herds. It made no sense at the time and still leaves me scratching my head. Kind of like the doe tags in twisp valley...
Post by: Stein on April 03, 2019, 12:26:18 PM
Post by: SuperX on April 03, 2019, 12:48:01 PM
It will eventually bring them to the table to discuss predators and how the herds are managed. Maybe not this year, but year after year of low revenue from license fees will eventually force a real conversation. How will it hurt?but how will that help? Everyone tosses that out but how would that help?I’ve attended a meeting, made several phone calls to talk to Wdfw, bitching is about all we can do. At those meetings you just get a chance to vent, Wdfw has already made up their minds, they just want us to think they care about our concerns. I’m ok with the bitching, plenty of reasons to. I still haven’t heard a better solution to manage the tribes other than to open up the seasons in the Yakima area to all weapons to any deer/elk sept-feb! You know dang well they will want to talk when all the elk and deer are gone in that area.
Not buying licenses is something you can do.
Post by: SuperX on April 03, 2019, 12:58:19 PM
So you are advocating for the status quo to help you use your points? Let's be clear, that isn't doing something, that's doing 'nothing'. Who's this coach, is John Wooden on the board? Obviously he never watched Cool Hand Luke... sometimes nothing is a pretty cool hand!
I am as frustrated as anyone on this forum! I've got max points for everything but elk and moose! I guess taking my all and going home isn't something I'm very good at.
Coach has a saying....."the result of doing nothing is nothing". Complaining on the internet is the same as doing nothing. :twocents:
Post by: kselkhunter on April 03, 2019, 01:16:36 PM
I disagree with protesting by not buying licenses and tags. WDFW will just raise prices to make up for the revenue shortfall, so the rest of us pay higher prices. The end result will be the same tag situation, except with higher prices for all. And once prices go up, they won't come back down, regardless if more people start buying licenses/tags.
Post by: Stein on April 03, 2019, 01:20:14 PM
The spent zero time researching why this is the case and have no plan to address it. Zip.
What would happen if this same situation unfolded in ID, MT, WY, CO, NM, or AZ? The pitchforks would come out and their department would be scrambling for answers. In WA, we say "bummer", and then rush out to buy our points. Granted, we don't have the backing of the vast majority of state legislature, but we do this to ourselves if we continue to give them our money. We pay relatively more for the tag itself and more for the points and get FAR less in return, yet we line up for more.
In MT, you can hunt 11 weeks through all weapon seasons in the majority of the state for $40 and buy a point for $9. In WA, you pay $50.40 get a few days in half the state with the majority of the good hunting locked up in the permit process and pay $13 for a point. What do you get for that extra 25% in cost? Oh, you get the ability to apply for an $182 multi-season tag.
WA is one of the few places where the elk herd is going down, OR just announced plans to help with depredation, MT wants to expand the shoulder seasons and other states are at least holding steady if not growing. They all have wolves, tribes, grizzlies and homebuilders. That makes a guy wonder why we are so unique and the department has no answers, nor do they care. Why are WA elk and deer dropping quickly when other states have a general positive trend (bad winter losses excluded)?
Sure, there are some great local bio's and most of them that I talked with will tell you their hands are tied. They know what is going on, but it doesn't fit the agenda or the story the department wants to tell, or they frankly just don't care.
Post by: KopperBuck on April 03, 2019, 01:26:09 PM
If people want to make a difference, predator hunt those GMUs this year. Take as many predators as legal. As many hunters as possible. That's one way to help the herds, that we can all directly contribute by taking action on.
I disagree with protesting by not buying licenses and tags. WDFW will just raise prices to make up for the revenue shortfall, so the rest of us pay higher prices. The end result will be the same tag situation, except with higher prices for all. And once prices go up, they won't come back down, regardless if more people start buying licenses/tags.
I disagree. You're now helping them do their job just to hold onto some thread of hope. The gov't is full of crap. Barrels and barrels of it. No matter what you think will help, I promise it will only get worse if left to their own devices. Eventually they won't be able to raise the price enough to cover. They will lose too many. Not having a legitimate non-resident pool won't help either. Reading about this stuff just makes my blood boil. The ONLY user group capable of ungulate recovery and management are hunters. Period.
Post by: trophyhunt on April 03, 2019, 01:26:55 PM
ouch, you cut me deep on that one Karl, names hurt you know!!Jerry's points mean very little for the tags he's been trying to get. I've been telling him he's a John Denver loving idiot for a few years now for not looking at some other weapon/gmu options :chuckle:I’ve attended a meeting, made several phone calls to talk to Wdfw, bitching is about all we can do. At those meetings you just get a chance to vent, Wdfw has already made up their minds, they just want us to think they care about our concerns. I’m ok with the bitching, plenty of reasons to. I still haven’t heard a better solution to manage the tribes other than to open up the seasons in the Yakima area to all weapons to any deer/elk sept-feb! You know dang well they will want to talk when all the elk and deer are gone in that area.
Not buying licenses is something you can do.
Jerry has to many points not to buy licenses :chuckle:
:chuckle:
Post by: elkrack on April 03, 2019, 01:44:16 PM
Jerry's points mean very little for the tags he's been trying to get. I've been telling him he's a John Denver loving idiot for a few years now for not looking at some other weapon/gmu options :chuckle:I’ve attended a meeting, made several phone calls to talk to Wdfw, bitching is about all we can do. At those meetings you just get a chance to vent, Wdfw has already made up their minds, they just want us to think they care about our concerns. I’m ok with the bitching, plenty of reasons to. I still haven’t heard a better solution to manage the tribes other than to open up the seasons in the Yakima area to all weapons to any deer/elk sept-feb! You know dang well they will want to talk when all the elk and deer are gone in that area.
Not buying licenses is something you can do.
Jerry has to many points not to buy licenses :chuckle:
Mic drop!!! :chuckle:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 03, 2019, 02:09:54 PM
Oh wait, I forgot, I'm just selfish and out for myself. Sorry I forgot :rolleyes:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 03, 2019, 02:12:52 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on April 03, 2019, 02:17:34 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 03, 2019, 02:23:26 PM
Post by: Mr Mykiss on April 03, 2019, 02:30:47 PM
I'm just selfish and out for myselfI like it. Do you think that you could change your screen name again...I'mjustselfishandoutformyself. Or is that too long??
Post by: BULLBLASTER on April 03, 2019, 02:46:26 PM
I heard mods can be bought to change peoples profiles... :chuckle:I'm just selfish and out for myselfI like it. Do you think that you could change your screen name again...I'mjustselfishandoutformyself. Or is that too long??
@jackelope
Post by: dreamingbig on April 03, 2019, 04:12:40 PM
The price of a deer and elk combo and a few permit apps is less than $350 sir. Personally the price paid for the chance at a good tag and for my head to be counted is worth it. I promise you, if we stopped participating even if it's on a limited scale then we will see the end of hunting in our lifetime. how cowardly and selfish would that be of us to take everything our fathers and grandfathers work for to build the North American model of big game and conservation and just piss it all away because we did not have the intestinal fortitude that they did to fight the fight.I have written countless letters and will continue to. To this date I haven’t received a single response.
Once again, tell me how quitting this state will benefit future generations of hunters and the ungulate population of Washington? or am I the only one that actually cares about that more than filling tag,......
In the past decade this has become clear:
1. The state will not change their approach to predator management. By their actions it screams that they give zero fs about future generations being able to hunt. It starts at the governors level and trickles down. They want this state to be like CA.
The predator problem includes wolves, bears and lions. We need OTC spring bear now: we need a wolf season now. We need to be able to hunt lions with hounds: I don’t see any of this happening in time to save the deer and elk.
2. The courts decision in the late 80s to give native Americans unfettered access to wildlife is something they will never be able to manage around. Nor are they willing to fight it in court. How is WA the only state with this problem?
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Post by: Mr Mykiss on April 03, 2019, 07:01:39 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on April 03, 2019, 07:03:37 PM
Is there any point in having BULL and QUALITY ELK permits anymore?? They’re both dammed bear impossible to draw and there’s only a small number of total tags in each category...Good point. There isn’t much for options in the bull category unless you have a rifle tag.
Post by: bobcat on April 03, 2019, 07:13:35 PM
Is there any point in having BULL and QUALITY ELK permits anymore?? They’re both dammed near impossible to draw and there’s only a small number of total tags in each category...
No, and there never was. Same with deer. Should just be buck permits and bull permits. No need for the quality category. They only made the extra categories so they can sell more applications.
Post by: WSU on April 03, 2019, 07:16:56 PM
Is there any point in having BULL and QUALITY ELK permits anymore?? They’re both dammed bear impossible to draw and there’s only a small number of total tags in each category...
Yes. Money.
Post by: dreamingbig on April 03, 2019, 08:06:52 PM
This and they were able to add rut hunts for rifle in September.Is there any point in having BULL and QUALITY ELK permits anymore?? They’re both dammed bear impossible to draw and there’s only a small number of total tags in each category...
Yes. Money.
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Post by: BULLBLASTER on April 03, 2019, 08:17:40 PM
They don’t need another category just for September hunts. I say make a guy pick what he wants not try for both.This and they were able to add rut hunts for rifle in September.Is there any point in having BULL and QUALITY ELK permits anymore?? They’re both dammed bear impossible to draw and there’s only a small number of total tags in each category...
Yes. Money.
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Post by: elksnout on April 03, 2019, 08:34:12 PM
I've had a Washington elk tag in my pocket every year since 1972. I'm aging. I still have the legs, lungs and pure desire to give each season my best shot. But I'm also running out of time.... Going into the 2019 drawings I'll have 20 points if I recall correctly. It's becoming unreasonable to think that I'll draw with what years I have left with so little numbers of permits available. I feel you "young" guns don't get that. It's been mentioned on here that we owe our fathers by continuing to support conservation, etc. I can tell you that I do not need any lecture or reminder of this. If I cared that I filled my tag each year I can assure anyone that I would have stopped buying tags many years ago.
So with all of this I don't think that I'll be purchasing anymore applications which is a hard pill for me to swallow. I'll buy a deer tag and hunt my beloved spot for blacktails. Might do the bear tag too. That and make my annual trek to eastern Oregon for archery elk. Over and out.
Elksnout
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 03, 2019, 08:40:34 PM
If people want to make a difference, predator hunt those GMUs this year. Take as many predators as legal. As many hunters as possible. That's one way to help the herds, that we can all directly contribute by taking action on.I will agree that predator hunting will help with herds overall, all species; but when a specific class of animals in a certain area is getting hit hard, maybe something else needs done.
I disagree with protesting by not buying licenses and tags. WDFW will just raise prices to make up for the revenue shortfall, so the rest of us pay higher prices. The end result will be the same tag situation, except with higher prices for all. And once prices go up, they won't come back down, regardless if more people start buying licenses/tags.
I don't think the predator hunting would solve the issue for the GMUs mostly being talked about (referring to mature bull elk). A post a couple pages back showed there wasn't really a drop in cows. And the cows taken to reduce herd size are somewhat attributable to WDFW. If all parts of the herd were dropping, it might be helpful to take predators. Sounds like the decline is in big bulls which the special permits are for. The OTC for spikes is still unlimited.
If enough predator hunting was done to build the herds way up, it sounds like the bigger bull absence would still be present.
Post by: Oh Mah on April 03, 2019, 08:44:42 PM
Still reading all the post so i can't see what the future posts are yet but want to point out that this is not correct and is not how the points are added with groups. :tup:I have 28 points and my odds are so bad that I always include a buddy on my app because the odds between 28 and 17 points are pretty much equally a crap burrito sandwich!!Once I was pissed about this state and their game management, then I got over it...hell I almost understood why it was so difficult for them to NOT DECIMATE the Kahlotus deer herd.:yeah:I've been considering this since I had 10 points, now at 24 points, I really want out. Once drawn, I'm done.
The elk permit quotas...I'm not sure I can get over this. Like seriously I'm formulating a plan to get the hell out, burn points on lesser hunts or no hunts...I'm DEAD SERIOUS.
Entries in the pot with 28 points is 784. Entries in the pot with 17 points is 289. Yes the odds are terrible, but you would have twice the chance of drawing with your 28 instead of the 17. On top of that, if you entered with your 28 points and 784 entries and your buddy put in with his assumed 17 points and 289 entries that would give the two of you 1073 entries that ONE of you (not both) would get drawn. That is what we do. We all put in separately because getting a super quality tag ever so often is better than all of us getting it the same year and trying to fill the all of the tags with quality animals. When one draws the entire group can help him or her have the hunt of a lifetime. Now with all of that said, if there are very many quality animals left on public land in Washington is open for debate. I'm still in that out of state is where you need to go but that can be tough too if you don't have good options and info.
Post by: Oh Mah on April 03, 2019, 09:07:19 PM
1 hunter with 28 points and 1 with 17 goes in with the average.
28 + 17 = 45 points divide by 2 = 22.5 points squared =506.25 entries.Cutting the chances of 1 almost in half and almost doubling the chances of the other. :tup:
Post by: Mr Mykiss on April 03, 2019, 09:59:03 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on April 03, 2019, 10:12:23 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 04, 2019, 06:45:56 AM
Post by: bobcat on April 04, 2019, 07:32:28 AM
Probably wanna read dvolmers post again gents. He's saying the opposite. He's saying if the two guys put in individually, the odds of ONE of them drawing is better than if they put in as a group. He's spot on.
:yeah:
Post by: Johnny Doe on April 04, 2019, 09:38:54 AM
Ok i have read all the posts in this thread and no one talked about it so i will for a second.
1 hunter with 28 points and 1 with 17 goes in with the average.
28 + 17 = 45 points divide by 2 = 22.5 points squared =506.25 entries.Cutting the chances of 1 almost in half and almost doubling the chances of the other. :tup:
This is partially right and K Blanch is also right in pointing out that putting in individually gives you a better chance! Depending on the hunt choice/applicants/number of tags, your odds don't actually get cut in half for 45 v 22 points...
I think Mykiss was about to point this out and if you want some actual numbers we might get a screen shot of some actual odds as well. Unfortunately dropping the tag numbers like they are planning will absolutely blow your odds out of the water of ever drawing one of those hunts :'(
Then again, everyone has a chance!!! :dunno:
Post by: Stein on April 04, 2019, 10:05:52 AM
I'm sure someone around here knows if this is true or not.
Either way, the odds were horrible last year and are now horrible/4 with no management plan, recovery plan or generally any logical hope that they will get back to only horrible in my lifetime.
Post by: Oh Mah on April 04, 2019, 10:32:45 AM
Probably wanna read dvolmers post again gents. He's saying the opposite. He's saying if the two guys put in individually, the odds of ONE of them drawing is better than if they put in as a group. He's spot on.In my post about the group and individual points it had nothing to do with the odds but only how the points are put in as a group.I firmly agree putting in as a group will always lower the odds.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 04, 2019, 10:40:56 AM
dvolmer WAS correct in his math of an individual with 28pt and 17pt having 1073 entries in the draw for the chance of ONE of them getting a tag.Still reading all the post so i can't see what the future posts are yet but want to point out that this is not correct and is not how the points are added with groups. :tup:I have 28 points and my odds are so bad that I always include a buddy on my app because the odds between 28 and 17 points are pretty much equally a crap burrito sandwich!!Once I was pissed about this state and their game management, then I got over it...hell I almost understood why it was so difficult for them to NOT DECIMATE the Kahlotus deer herd.:yeah:I've been considering this since I had 10 points, now at 24 points, I really want out. Once drawn, I'm done.
The elk permit quotas...I'm not sure I can get over this. Like seriously I'm formulating a plan to get the hell out, burn points on lesser hunts or no hunts...I'm DEAD SERIOUS.
Entries in the pot with 28 points is 784. Entries in the pot with 17 points is 289. Yes the odds are terrible, but you would have twice the chance of drawing with your 28 instead of the 17. On top of that, if you entered with your 28 points and 784 entries and your buddy put in with his assumed 17 points and 289 entries that would give the two of you 1073 entries that ONE of you (not both) would get drawn. That is what we do. We all put in separately because getting a super quality tag ever so often is better than all of us getting it the same year and trying to fill the all of the tags with quality animals. When one draws the entire group can help him or her have the hunt of a lifetime. Now with all of that said, if there are very many quality animals left on public land in Washington is open for debate. I'm still in that out of state is where you need to go but that can be tough too if you don't have good options and info.
Post by: Oh Mah on April 04, 2019, 10:46:23 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 04, 2019, 10:48:36 AM
Post by: Oh Mah on April 04, 2019, 10:58:23 AM
Fact is if they keep taking away tags the group thing may not be as popular as it is with some :chuckle:.
Reducing tags in some areas is gonna be good for the herds.The biggest problem is the lack of breeding when we have these super hot summers. :twocents:
We can find ways to fight the predators but i don't have any idea how we can do anything about the cows not going into season because of hot summers.Artificial maybe?
Post by: bobcat on April 04, 2019, 11:07:59 AM
Post by: Oh Mah on April 04, 2019, 11:11:14 AM
Post by: bobcat on April 04, 2019, 11:13:02 AM
I was told by one of the biologist this winter that the reason for the decline in calf numbers is do to the really long hot summers and that elk cows sometimes don't go into season because of this.
Really? Maybe it's something to do with poor nutrition due to drought.
Post by: Oh Mah on April 04, 2019, 11:18:07 AM
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 04, 2019, 11:25:27 AM
:dunno: honestly it was the first i ever heard of it myself.
It's cause it's made up...other states have hotter summers than wa but elk seem to do just fine.
Post by: dreamingbig on April 04, 2019, 11:28:33 AM
Bulls health will determine how long and how much effort they put into the rut.
So if the long hot summer is hurting the food supply then yes it could have an impact but it is dependent on how much it impacts the health of the animal.
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Post by: Stein on April 04, 2019, 11:32:55 AM
The report is looking at the impacts of human interaction, but it also notes increases in stress that are temperature (drought) caused.
https://www.aphis.usda.gov/wildlife_damage/nwrc/publications/15pubs/15-047%20washburn.pdf
I didn't see any other studies that had data related to cows completely skipping breeding cycles, but I'm not a biologist. What is out there suggests that the timing of breeding seasons may change (earlier or later), but I didn't see anything that suggested they don't breed.
Post by: bigdub257 on April 04, 2019, 11:52:52 AM
Hot summers? What's that got to do with whether cows are getting bred or not? Never heard of that. They come into heat the same time of the year, every year, and if there are enough mature bulls, they will get bred. If it's hot, might be more active at night. Now the real problem might be the Yakama tribe allowing their members to kill unlimited numbers of bulls so they can sell jerky and sell the trophy heads.
:yeah: BINGO!
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 04, 2019, 12:21:28 PM
Cant speak to other herds but I'd attribute the yakima "decline" to native hunting and NON native poaching. Its 100% a big issue around here.
I have an email in Two Fish and Game to talk to some folks hopefully next week but I have a sneaking suspicion that this year's winter counts we're not very accurate. animals were big and fat coming into the snow that we got I know different what I saw a lot of the Bulls did not push down like the cows did. It would stand to reason that depending on where they were counting that they didnt get near as many of the boys as they normally would with a more traditional winter. Hopefully I will get a speedy response. I've always had great communication from our local region 3 office so I have no doubt I'll hear back shortly.
Post by: Oh Mah on April 04, 2019, 12:24:58 PM
The people in the region 3 office are very helpful. :tup:
Post by: bobcat on April 04, 2019, 12:37:32 PM
Post by: idaho guy on April 04, 2019, 12:54:48 PM
This theory of hot summers being a factor in reducing the number of calf elk sounds to me like some biologist trying to find one more thing to blame on global warming.
:yeah: that's a fact-plus elk can and will cycle 2-3 times if not bred on the first go round they go in again. could be late october into November hard to blame a hot summer for no breeding when there could be snow on the ground. I have often gotten into herds last few days of October with a cow in heat and the bulls were going ballistic. Fake news :chuckle:
Post by: Oh Mah on April 04, 2019, 12:57:46 PM
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 04, 2019, 12:57:54 PM
This theory of hot summers being a factor in reducing the number of calf elk sounds to me like some biologist trying to find one more thing to blame on global warming.
Pretty much looks like it...
And I'll echo Karl's thoughts... no matter how hot it gets you can still find a water source in every GMU that holds elk..and the elk have no problem finding them.
Post by: Oh Mah on April 04, 2019, 01:02:19 PM
THAT'S A FACT? WHERES YOUR FACTS?Just an fyi in Yakima the heat can be extreme and for long periods,The water all but dries up in some areas and if heat causes stress and they don't ALL go into heat for this reason i can believe it is a factor.and then almost over night here in Yakima the weather turns very cold and if this also causes stress i can believe it can be a factor.Throw in all the other stresses they live with like the cougars and wolves low water and food because of the heat..............No matter what any of us thinks the fact is the calve numbers are low this year.This theory of hot summers being a factor in reducing the number of calf elk sounds to me like some biologist trying to find one more thing to blame on global warming.
:yeah: that's a fact-plus elk can and will cycle 2-3 times if not bred on the first go round they go in again. could be late october into November hard to blame a hot summer for no breeding when there could be snow on the ground. I have often gotten into herds last few days of October with a cow in heat and the bulls were going ballistic. Fake news :chuckle:
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 04, 2019, 01:14:35 PM
Do I tend to believe wdfw biologists..not so much anymore. I've known a few over the years and even the best will admit that data is often drivin by politics and rough estimates of field surveys.
So to say the "facts" presented by biologists hold more weight than the ,"facts" I have generated by 30 years of boots on the ground is absolutely your right, it just doesn't make it right.
I know what I see, I know what my camera's see, thus I generate my own opinion based on the facts I know to be true.
Post by: idaho guy on April 04, 2019, 01:14:50 PM
THAT'S A FACT? WHERES YOUR FACTS?Just an fyi in Yakima the heat can be extreme and for long periods,The water all but dries up in some areas and if heat causes stress and they don't ALL go into heat for this reason i can believe it is a factor.and then almost over night here in Yakima the weather turns very cold and if this also causes stress i can believe it can be a factor.Throw in all the other stresses they live with like the cougars and wolves low water and food because of the heat..............This theory of hot summers being a factor in reducing the number of calf elk sounds to me like some biologist trying to find one more thing to blame on global warming.
:yeah: that's a fact-plus elk can and will cycle 2-3 times if not bred on the first go round they go in again. could be late october into November hard to blame a hot summer for no breeding when there could be snow on the ground. I have often gotten into herds last few days of October with a cow in heat and the bulls were going ballistic. Fake news :chuckle:
you are spot on with the wolf and cougar stress! Try southern Idaho in august and tell me if Yakima is hotter and drier. How about AZ and Nevada? Those area elk populations are thriving. My facts lie in the biology of elk and if a cow is not bred in September she will come in again in October and if not bread again in November. A cow elk can come into estrus FOUR times! about 20 days apart. They are not breeding in November because it was too hot in August? Its bulls**T and another way to try and blame every problem on global warming (wait I mean climate change) I forgot they had to change the name because we have been setting records for snowfall at least where I live.
Post by: Mr Mykiss on April 04, 2019, 01:27:04 PM
Read em and weep:
Draw odds for the Peaches Rifle BULL Tag
20 points 2.43%
15 points 1.38%
10 points 0.6%
5 points 0.15%
That's 50 (statistically more) years if you have 20 points...so you got your hunter ed when you were 8...accumulated 20 YEARS of points...you would/should be 78 by the time you draw.
Have a nice day.
:hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello:
Post by: deerlick on April 04, 2019, 01:28:46 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on April 04, 2019, 01:34:45 PM
First this is not Arizona or Nevada,It is not Idaho or Colorado neither.
Second i am not gonna pretend to know what all the differences are between all these other states vs WA.
3rd. If we get to a point where everything everyone says has to be questioned because of some agenda then all will be lost.
4 the agendas go both ways,i am far from a global warming guy but if you want to say the bio that told me this was just pushing an agenda then what is your agenda?I hope its not that you get your elk at the expense of our kids and grand kids having the same chances.If the herd is down and the calve numbers are low then i have no problem with them cutting elk season all together for a couple years in these areas. :twocents:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on April 04, 2019, 01:41:41 PM
Post by: Stein on April 04, 2019, 01:45:30 PM
Facts??!! You can't handle the facts!!
Read em and weep:
Draw odds for the Peaches Rifle BULL Tag
20 points 2.43%
15 points 1.38%
10 points 0.6%
5 points 0.15%
That's 50 (statistically more) years if you have 20 points...so you got your hunter ed when you were 8...accumulated 20 YEARS of points...you would/should be 78 by the time you draw.
Have a nice day.
:hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello:
Where did you get those odds? I'm not arguing as they sound about what I expected but I thought only GoHunt was actually calculating the true odds in WA and they haven't released theirs yet.
Post by: Oh Mah on April 04, 2019, 01:48:19 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on April 04, 2019, 01:52:14 PM
Facts??!! You can't handle the facts!!These odds don't help your argument at all.It only shows that there is a def. crisis :chuckle: (NOT MANUFACTURED EITHER)if you want to add to what you think the problem is other than wolves cougars and climate then i don't see how you are helping here.
Read em and weep:
Draw odds for the Peaches Rifle BULL Tag
20 points 2.43%
15 points 1.38%
10 points 0.6%
5 points 0.15%
That's 50 (statistically more) years if you have 20 points...so you got your hunter ed when you were 8...accumulated 20 YEARS of points...you would/should be 78 by the time you draw.
Have a nice day.
:hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on April 04, 2019, 01:55:14 PM
:tup: how many calves are you seeing?@ BULLBLASTER.I didn’t pay a lot of attention to calf or cow numbers as we were hunting bulls but all of the cow groups we came across had at least one bull harassing them. One of the larger groups we got into had 20+ cows and calves for sure.
Post by: birddogdad on April 04, 2019, 01:55:56 PM
Wolves, natives, climate, permits. Only management tool they can control is permits. At least they recognize the decline.
this :yeah:
Post by: Stein on April 04, 2019, 01:58:09 PM
a) we don't know if there is a problem or not - nobody has an accurate count, and
b) there is no plan to address the problem if there is one (or even plans to come up with a plan).
Both of those are statutory mandates on The Department of Fish & Wildlife. What we really need to do is figure out how to get them to do their job as none of us has the ability or power do do it without them.
The same could be said for mule deer, moose, caribou (up until they went bye bye) and probably other things.
Post by: Mr Mykiss on April 04, 2019, 01:59:55 PM
It wasn't an argument bud. It was a statement of fact.Facts??!! You can't handle the facts!!These odds don't help your argument at all.It only shows that there is a def. crisis :chuckle: (NOT MANUFACTURED EITHER)if you want to add to what you think the problem is other than wolves cougars and climate then i don't see how you are helping here.
Read em and weep:
Draw odds for the Peaches Rifle BULL Tag
20 points 2.43%
15 points 1.38%
10 points 0.6%
5 points 0.15%
That's 50 (statistically more) years if you have 20 points...so you got your hunter ed when you were 8...accumulated 20 YEARS of points...you would/should be 78 by the time you draw.
Have a nice day.
:hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello:
Post by: Oh Mah on April 04, 2019, 02:01:20 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on April 04, 2019, 02:04:28 PM
We are arguing about the problem because:Let me guess.WE WONT ACCEPT WHAT THEY SAY UNLESS WE SEE ALL THE DATA AND EVIDENCE THAT BROUGHT THEM TO THIS CONCLUSION.
a) we don't know if there is a problem or not - nobody has an accurate count, and
b) there is no plan to address the problem if there is one (or even plans to come up with a plan).
Both of those are statutory mandates on The Department of Fish & Wildlife. What we really need to do is figure out how to get them to do their job as none of us has the ability or power do do it without them.
The same could be said for mule deer, moose, caribou (up until they went bye bye) and probably other things.
Sounds familiar. :chuckle:
I can see with my own eyes that the calf numbers are very low this year,To anyone that states other wise it would be great to show this in some way to us here on HW or the Dept. as Karl Blanchard stated he was doing.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 04, 2019, 02:20:26 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on April 04, 2019, 02:28:28 PM
The reason for the calf topic is because the count at the feed station.I spoke to the volunteers up there a few times this year and all of them have the same thoughts and concerns.THE CALF NUMBERS ARE LOWER THAN ANY YEAR THEY CAN REMEMBER.Bulls come down for the feed and some don't i get that but cows with calves generally do and i would think their calf numbers are pretty accurate.Maybe i'm wrong. :dunno:
Post by: Shawn Ryan on April 04, 2019, 06:10:02 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on April 04, 2019, 06:11:41 PM
You know there is a real problem with elk management when Karl cares enough to get involved with the management of such a stinky, overrated species.He’s a closet elk lover!
Post by: Shawn Ryan on April 04, 2019, 06:14:18 PM
You know there is a real problem with elk management when Karl cares enough to get involved with the management of such a stinky, overrated species.He’s a closet elk lover!
So, you're saying this thread is one of those new-fangled reveal parties?!
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 04, 2019, 06:29:25 PM
Facts are open to interpretation depending on a number of factors including personal experience.In the past, the biologists always referred to themselves as biologists. The new ones I talk to don't like that term. They want to be called ecologists. The bios of the past seemed to always include hunters as another aspect to being in the woods--how they affect animals. The new ones think of hunters (and humans) basically as some kind of aliens trying to mess up the natural world. :dunno:
Do I tend to believe wdfw biologists..not so much anymore. I've known a few over the years and even the best will admit that data is often drivin by politics and rough estimates of field surveys.
So to say the "facts" presented by biologists hold more weight than the ,"facts" I have generated by 30 years of boots on the ground is absolutely your right, it just doesn't make it right.
I know what I see, I know what my camera's see, thus I generate my own opinion based on the facts I know to be true.
Post by: Mr Mykiss on April 04, 2019, 09:56:03 PM
Last year’s application numbers by point total and this year’s permit numbers.Facts??!! You can't handle the facts!!
Read em and weep:
Draw odds for the Peaches Rifle BULL Tag
20 points 2.43%
15 points 1.38%
10 points 0.6%
5 points 0.15%
That's 50 (statistically more) years if you have 20 points...so you got your hunter ed when you were 8...accumulated 20 YEARS of points...you would/should be 78 by the time you draw.
Have a nice day.
:hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello:
Where did you get those odds? I'm not arguing as they sound about what I expected but I thought only GoHunt was actually calculating the true odds in WA and they haven't released theirs yet.
Post by: Limhangerslayer on April 04, 2019, 10:47:01 PM
I'd rather you didn't post those! Not I don't have a chance!!😂Last year’s application numbers by point total and this year’s permit numbers.Facts??!! You can't handle the facts!!
Read em and weep:
Draw odds for the Peaches Rifle BULL Tag
20 points 2.43%
15 points 1.38%
10 points 0.6%
5 points 0.15%
That's 50 (statistically more) years if you have 20 points...so you got your hunter ed when you were 8...accumulated 20 YEARS of points...you would/should be 78 by the time you draw.
Have a nice day.
:hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello: :hello:
Where did you get those odds? I'm not arguing as they sound about what I expected but I thought only GoHunt was actually calculating the true odds in WA and they haven't released theirs yet.
Post by: Stein on April 05, 2019, 07:58:23 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 05, 2019, 08:27:21 AM
You know there is a real problem with elk management when Karl cares enough to get involved with the management of such a stinky, overrated species.ahahahaha!!!!! I wish they would all die off so the deer could thrive more sir :chuckle:
But seriously, I'm wanting more info because I think this is a knee jerk cut due to poor counts. I'm by no means an expert but I do trump around in the woods a bit. 25 years of chasing elk in my back yard I feel like I have a decent feel on the elk around these parts.
Post by: Mr Mykiss on April 05, 2019, 08:51:24 AM
Those odds are likely pretty close, but you have to also take into account that there are multiple options available per application (you can choose 1st choice, 2nd choice, etc. or just first choice).Sure. You want the true odds do em. you'll never get em because you don't know how many people will apply with what points, how many will apply as a group, how big the groups are, etc. The spread of your numbers and mine will be well within what would be my std error given the variability in the actual application numbers, ~0.25ish at the top end of point totals and decreasing significantly as point totals decrease.
Post by: Stein on April 05, 2019, 10:02:17 AM
You know there is a real problem with elk management when Karl cares enough to get involved with the management of such a stinky, overrated species.ahahahaha!!!!! I wish they would all die off so the deer could thrive more sir :chuckle:
But seriously, I'm wanting more info because I think this is a knee jerk cut due to poor counts. I'm by no means an expert but I do trump around in the woods a bit. 25 years of chasing elk in my back yard I feel like I have a decent feel on the elk around these parts.
Sounds like a reasonable possibility. Hopefully you get a bunch of info on what they did and what they are seeing that wasn't included in the ppt. One would hope they dug a bit deeper before cutting tags 70+% and it wasn't just a knee jerk reaction.
Post by: jstone on April 05, 2019, 10:07:36 AM
Post by: HoofsandWings on April 05, 2019, 10:36:18 AM
Also, with all of the whining I see here, won't deter you from applying for a permit.
If odds were the reason, then you should stay away from all lottery offerings, especially those like powerball.
Also avoid all raffles.
I can think of only one sure thing that you can bet on. There is a 100% chance that you will die.
Post by: dreamingbig on April 05, 2019, 12:49:38 PM
Exactly. My years of trail cams in Yakima units don’t portray the disaster that these permit reductions imply.You know there is a real problem with elk management when Karl cares enough to get involved with the management of such a stinky, overrated species.ahahahaha!!!!! I wish they would all die off so the deer could thrive more sir :chuckle:
But seriously, I'm wanting more info because I think this is a knee jerk cut due to poor counts. I'm by no means an expert but I do trump around in the woods a bit. 25 years of chasing elk in my back yard I feel like I have a decent feel on the elk around these parts.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: bobcat on April 05, 2019, 01:05:02 PM
Post by: dreamingbig on April 05, 2019, 01:11:32 PM
Could it be that the intention is to save more of the mature bulls for the Yakamas, so they have more jerky to sell?I wouldn’t past the committee to make changes to please/satisfy a certain tribe.
Unfortunately I doubt my kids (under 10) will ever get to hunt this state as adults.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Johnny Doe on April 05, 2019, 02:39:00 PM
Those odds are likely pretty close, but you have to also take into account that there are multiple options available per application (you can choose 1st choice, 2nd choice, etc. or just first choice).Sure. You want the true odds do em. you'll never get em because you don't know how many people will apply with what points, how many will apply as a group, how big the groups are, etc. The spread of your numbers and mine will be well within what would be my std error given the variability in the actual application numbers, ~0.25ish at the top end of point totals and decreasing significantly as point totals decrease.
:yeah:
Post by: kselkhunter on April 08, 2019, 11:08:56 AM
https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/02058/wdfw02058.pdf
Post by: Stein on April 08, 2019, 11:30:14 AM
Those odds are likely pretty close, but you have to also take into account that there are multiple options available per application (you can choose 1st choice, 2nd choice, etc. or just first choice).Sure. You want the true odds do em. you'll never get em because you don't know how many people will apply with what points, how many will apply as a group, how big the groups are, etc. The spread of your numbers and mine will be well within what would be my std error given the variability in the actual application numbers, ~0.25ish at the top end of point totals and decreasing significantly as point totals decrease.
:yeah:
GoHunt is publishing odds towards the end of the month. I was interested if there was any other service putting out good odds, but apparently I hit a nerve.
Post by: trophyhunt on April 08, 2019, 11:56:11 AM
Could it be that the intention is to save more of the mature bulls for the Yakamas, so they have more jerky to sell?https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=elk+jerky+whitefoot&view=detail&mid=46F46EF06425AF6A29AE46F46EF06425AF6A29AE&FORM=VIRE
Post by: dvolmer on April 08, 2019, 02:23:56 PM
Could it be that the intention is to save more of the mature bulls for the Yakamas, so they have more jerky to sell?https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=elk+jerky+whitefoot&view=detail&mid=46F46EF06425AF6A29AE46F46EF06425AF6A29AE&FORM=VIRE
Oh how I wish I hadn't watched this video!!!! Just really pushes me over the edge! Other than his hair is dark, he looks absolutely zero % native!!! right off of Duck Dynasty!!! We are definitely at the beginning of the end!
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on April 08, 2019, 02:34:39 PM
Could it be that the intention is to save more of the mature bulls for the Yakamas, so they have more jerky to sell?https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=elk+jerky+whitefoot&view=detail&mid=46F46EF06425AF6A29AE46F46EF06425AF6A29AE&FORM=VIRE
People have to be getting sick off that meat cut up on chipboard plywood. :puke: :puke:
Post by: trophyhunt on April 08, 2019, 03:00:29 PM
he has more videos on YouTubeCould it be that the intention is to save more of the mature bulls for the Yakamas, so they have more jerky to sell?https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=elk+jerky+whitefoot&view=detail&mid=46F46EF06425AF6A29AE46F46EF06425AF6A29AE&FORM=VIRE
Oh how I wish I hadn't watched this video!!!! Just really pushes me over the edge! Other than his hair is dark, he looks absolutely zero % native!!! right off of Duck Dynasty!!! We are definitely at the beginning of the end!
Post by: Birdgetter on April 08, 2019, 03:15:30 PM
:bash:
Post by: Birdgetter on April 08, 2019, 03:16:55 PM
Pretty big bulls just to make jerky!
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Post by: Rainier10 on April 08, 2019, 03:25:41 PM
Post by: Birdgetter on April 08, 2019, 03:29:03 PM
Post by: dvolmer on April 08, 2019, 03:39:46 PM
Post by: Birdgetter on April 08, 2019, 03:40:44 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on April 08, 2019, 03:44:59 PM
This thread is about the quota of Permits going into the toilet. I don't see why talking about the apparent cause is jacking the thread???:yeah: exactly, should also say that this is just one of the possible reasons.
Post by: bobcat on April 08, 2019, 03:55:21 PM
Post by: HntnFsh on April 08, 2019, 06:17:27 PM
Boy doesn't he look like a real champion! So let me get this straight, is he selling all of the jerky he is making? You would think he wouldn't have to shoot the biggest bull he can find just for eating purposes!
:bash:
For the best jerky you have to use big 6 and 7 point bulls! :puke:
Post by: trophyhunt on April 08, 2019, 08:00:13 PM
Post by: Birdgetter on April 08, 2019, 08:06:07 PM
He’s got a bunch of you tube videos, even hunting with realtree Outdoors. I’ve been wanting to ask him in the comment section whe he shoots dozens of bulls and not cows for the meat?Haha, I just saw the video with realteee. They mention our good buddy Delbert in the video description even. Everyone in the comments saying it is nice to see people respecting their land and quarry, give me a break. :bash:
Post by: Stein on April 08, 2019, 08:44:35 PM
Post by: Naches Sportsman on April 08, 2019, 08:46:48 PM
I can't believe I'm defending it, but shooting bulls does help maintain the herd better than whacking the tar out of a pile of adult cows. It also gives you antlers which have a market value and may have more to do with the decision than conservation.
The Indians shoot a ton of cows every winter including right off the hay piles in the nile, but people only complain about bulls being killed for some reason.
It's not uncommon to see a trailer full of dead cows going down the road in the winter time.
Post by: trophyhunt on April 08, 2019, 08:52:00 PM
I can't believe I'm defending it, but shooting bulls does help maintain the herd better than whacking the tar out of a pile of adult cows. It also gives you antlers which have a market value and may have more to do with the decision than conservation.shooting truck loads of bulls help? I know, no need to answer that.
Post by: Birdgetter on April 08, 2019, 09:01:01 PM
Post by: Stein on April 08, 2019, 09:36:52 PM
I can't believe I'm defending it, but shooting bulls does help maintain the herd better than whacking the tar out of a pile of adult cows. It also gives you antlers which have a market value and may have more to do with the decision than conservation.shooting truck loads of bulls help? I know, no need to answer that.
If the choice is between shooting 50 bulls and shooting 50 cows, then yes, I would say that is the better of two bad choices.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 08, 2019, 09:40:57 PM
For the herd and future of hunting that herd (spikes/antlerless), I'd agree. If you're just looking to finally draw a tag and not concerned with herd after a few years, probably want the jerky man to shoot cows and calves.I can't believe I'm defending it, but shooting bulls does help maintain the herd better than whacking the tar out of a pile of adult cows. It also gives you antlers which have a market value and may have more to do with the decision than conservation.shooting truck loads of bulls help? I know, no need to answer that.
If the choice is between shooting 50 bulls and shooting 50 cows, then yes, I would say that is the better of two bad choices.
Post by: trophyhunt on April 09, 2019, 05:55:33 AM
Post by: kirkl on April 10, 2019, 07:25:54 AM
Mr.
The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife is in receipt of your email related to tribal hunting. The Yakama Treaty of 1855 speaks directly to the issue of the hunting privileges guaranteed by the treaty. The following is Article 3 of said treaty:
ARTICLE 3.
And provided, That, if necessary for the public convenience, roads may be run through the said
reservation; and on the other hand, the right of way, with free access from the same to the nearest
public highway, is secured to them; as also the right, in common with citizens of the United
States, to travel upon all public highways.
The exclusive right of taking fish in all the streams, where running through or bordering said
reservation, is further secured to said confederated tribes and bands of Indians, as also the right of
taking fish at all usual and accustomed places, in common with the citizens of the Territory, and
of erecting temporary buildings for curing them; together with the privilege of hunting, gathering
roots and berries, and pasturing their horses and cattle upon open and unclaimed land.
As this is a treaty with the United States, it is the law of the land and has been declared such by the courts. As you can see, the treaty does not specify the fishing and hunting rights that were retained by the Yakama Nation were restricted to ceremonial and subsistence purposes. The hunting activities of Yakama Nation members typically are regulated by the Yakima Nation provided those activities occur on open and unclaimed lands within their ceded area or within the confines of the reservation boundaries. The Yakima Nation does regulate commercial uses of wildlife, and allow it under some instances. From review of the video you mentioned, it appears this subjects activities occurred within the ceded area or on the reservation. Therefore, we have provided the information to the Yakama Nation Fish and Wildlife Enforcement to determine whether this subject is in compliance with their regulations. If you have additional information related to specific sales of wildlife by this subject, that would be helpful in better analyzing this subjects activities.
Post by: Stein on April 10, 2019, 07:43:31 AM
Post by: SuperX on April 10, 2019, 08:10:41 AM
Post by: Oh Mah on April 10, 2019, 08:14:00 AM
It's interesting that the treaty lists fishing as a right and hunting as a privilege. That typically means that the "privilege" can be taken away much more easily than a right."Privilege" is wording of the person typing,Not the wording from the actual treaty.
Post by: Oh Mah on April 10, 2019, 08:17:29 AM
wouldn't it be great if "in common with the citizens" meant under the same regulations, kind of like it means everyone has the same speed limit they have to follow?It does and with a fair court it would be ruled that way,Problem is here in WA. we don't have that "FAIR COURT" We have a corrupt greedy court system and Gov. that takes payoffs. :twocents:
Post by: Tbar on April 10, 2019, 08:25:06 AM
You sure?"Privilege" is wording of the person typing,Not the wording from the actual treaty.
It's interesting that the treaty lists fishing as a right and hunting as a privilege. That typically means that the "privilege" can be taken away much more easily than a right.
Post by: Oh Mah on April 10, 2019, 08:27:32 AM
Post by: Stein on April 10, 2019, 08:29:23 AM
I will have to double check now :chuckle:
That't the language that appears on the Yakima Nation website here:
http://www.yakamanation-nsn.gov/treaty.php
It also appears here on the FWS website:
https://www.fws.gov/Pacific/ea/tribal/treaties/Yakima.pdf
Post by: trophyhunt on April 10, 2019, 08:30:14 AM
wouldn't it be great if "in common with the citizens" meant under the same regulations, kind of like it means everyone has the same speed limit they have to follow?”In common with” is part of the treaty that should be challenged in court by good expensive lawyers. There is nothing in common with how the tribes operate and non tribal members.
Post by: Oh Mah on April 10, 2019, 08:33:24 AM
Yes you are right,Wow the way we are mis informed because of status quo is ridiculous.I am truly surprised,Thanks for pointing that out.I will have to double check now :chuckle:
That't the language that appears on the Yakima Nation website here:
http://www.yakamanation-nsn.gov/treaty.php
It also appears here on the FWS website:
https://www.fws.gov/Pacific/ea/tribal/treaties/Yakima.pdf
Post by: Oh Mah on April 10, 2019, 08:34:54 AM
But our corrupt state will not. :twocents:wouldn't it be great if "in common with the citizens" meant under the same regulations, kind of like it means everyone has the same speed limit they have to follow?”In common with” is part of the treaty that should be challenged in court by good expensive lawyers. There is nothing in common with how the tribes operate and non tribal members.
Post by: Stein on April 10, 2019, 08:35:22 AM
Also, a conservation group could sue the state for not managing the wildlife by not ensuring compliance with the treaty - very similar to the lawsuit over chinook and orcas. The animals are owned by the citizens of the state and there is clear harm if they are not doing their job and there is abuse from tribal hunters.
Of course, we don't know there is abuse or not, mostly because there is no monitoring or auditing. The Yakima tribe could be letting a few guys take all the elk which could be in compliance with the treaty, or the tribe could be taking more than they are legally allowed. We can guess, but nobody but the tribe knows (and they may not know if they don't regulate and monitor).
Post by: Oh Mah on April 10, 2019, 08:38:00 AM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on April 10, 2019, 08:49:37 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on April 10, 2019, 09:52:34 AM
We should sell any non-tribal land that is elk-habitat to the RMEF which would then make it "claimed land" off-limits to the tribe.:tup:
Post by: Tbar on April 10, 2019, 09:54:20 AM
You sure about that?But our corrupt state will not. :twocents:wouldn't it be great if "in common with the citizens" meant under the same regulations, kind of like it means everyone has the same speed limit they have to follow?”In common with” is part of the treaty that should be challenged in court by good expensive lawyers. There is nothing in common with how the tribes operate and non tribal members.
Post by: Oh Mah on April 10, 2019, 12:27:35 PM
Post by: SuperX on April 10, 2019, 12:37:04 PM
One thing for sure, this is the administration and court most likely to support a challenge. Where's Don Jr. when hunters need him?
Post by: TriggerMike on April 11, 2019, 10:58:06 AM
"Population surveys for the Yakima elk herd were completed recently and indicate
that the population remains at levels similar to those observed in 2017 and is ~1,000 elk
below objective. However, the number of cows in the population is near objective."
https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/about/commission/meetings/2019/04/apr04_13_summary.pdf
Post by: OltHunter on April 11, 2019, 12:38:56 PM
On page 12, if this hasn't already been posted. 1000 elk below objective but cows are near objective. That's alot of bulls missing...
"Population surveys for the Yakima elk herd were completed recently and indicate
that the population remains at levels similar to those observed in 2017 and is ~1,000 elk
below objective. However, the number of cows in the population is near objective."
https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/about/commission/meetings/2019/04/apr04_13_summary.pdf
10 archery peaches elk tags?!! :yike:
Post by: jstone on April 11, 2019, 12:43:38 PM
Post by: boneaddict on April 11, 2019, 12:48:25 PM
I would think ROCKY MOUNTAIN ELK FOUNDATION would be big enough and with good enough lawyers to take this on against the state and tribal.The state for not protecting said game in the first place. :twocents:
Where would they host their banquets? :rolleyes:
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on April 11, 2019, 12:58:20 PM
I would think ROCKY MOUNTAIN ELK FOUNDATION would be big enough and with good enough lawyers to take this on against the state and tribal.The state for not protecting said game in the first place. :twocents:
Where would they host their banquets? :rolleyes:
:chuckle:🤔
Post by: trophyhunt on April 11, 2019, 01:08:12 PM
Post by: ribka on April 11, 2019, 01:16:14 PM
Legends Casino on the Yak Rez of courseI would think ROCKY MOUNTAIN ELK FOUNDATION would be big enough and with good enough lawyers to take this on against the state and tribal.The state for not protecting said game in the first place. :twocents:
Where would they host their banquets? :rolleyes:
Post by: idahohuntr on April 11, 2019, 01:18:47 PM
There was a recent SCOTUS decision involving the Yakama's who were sued by the State of Washington on a fuel tax issue where "in common with" language was at play.You sure about that?But our corrupt state will not. :twocents:wouldn't it be great if "in common with the citizens" meant under the same regulations, kind of like it means everyone has the same speed limit they have to follow?”In common with” is part of the treaty that should be challenged in court by good expensive lawyers. There is nothing in common with how the tribes operate and non tribal members.
Justice Gorsuch and others who decided in favor of the Yakama's weighed in on this exact language...'in common with' was not simply an anti-discrimination provision of the Treaty. The language is interpreted as meaning joint use of a resource (e.g., elk or highways or fish) - not a restriction on Tribal members that is equivalent to restrictions placed on non-tribal members. Numerous court rulings have affirmed this interpretation.
So...I'll save you some expensive lawyer money...arguing 'in common with' means Tribes have to follow non tribal regulations regarding the harvest of elk, deer etc. is a dead end that has already been made clear in numerous Supreme Court rulings dating back over 100 years.
Post by: trophyhunt on April 11, 2019, 01:55:39 PM
gee thanks for crushing my dream!!There was a recent SCOTUS decision involving the Yakama's who were sued by the State of Washington on a fuel tax issue where "in common with" language was at play.You sure about that?But our corrupt state will not. :twocents:wouldn't it be great if "in common with the citizens" meant under the same regulations, kind of like it means everyone has the same speed limit they have to follow?”In common with” is part of the treaty that should be challenged in court by good expensive lawyers. There is nothing in common with how the tribes operate and non tribal members.
Justice Gorsuch and others who decided in favor of the Yakama's weighed in on this exact language...'in common with' was not simply an anti-discrimination provision of the Treaty. The language is interpreted as meaning joint use of a resource (e.g., elk or highways or fish) - not a restriction on Tribal members that is equivalent to restrictions placed on non-tribal members. Numerous court rulings have affirmed this interpretation.
So...I'll save you some expensive lawyer money...arguing 'in common with' means Tribes have to follow non tribal regulations regarding the harvest of elk, deer etc. is a dead end that has already been made clear in numerous Supreme Court rulings dating back over 100 years.
Post by: idahohuntr on April 11, 2019, 04:20:41 PM
Dreams won't be officially crushed until June draw results! :yike:gee thanks for crushing my dream!!There was a recent SCOTUS decision involving the Yakama's who were sued by the State of Washington on a fuel tax issue where "in common with" language was at play.You sure about that?But our corrupt state will not. :twocents:wouldn't it be great if "in common with the citizens" meant under the same regulations, kind of like it means everyone has the same speed limit they have to follow?”In common with” is part of the treaty that should be challenged in court by good expensive lawyers. There is nothing in common with how the tribes operate and non tribal members.
Justice Gorsuch and others who decided in favor of the Yakama's weighed in on this exact language...'in common with' was not simply an anti-discrimination provision of the Treaty. The language is interpreted as meaning joint use of a resource (e.g., elk or highways or fish) - not a restriction on Tribal members that is equivalent to restrictions placed on non-tribal members. Numerous court rulings have affirmed this interpretation.
So...I'll save you some expensive lawyer money...arguing 'in common with' means Tribes have to follow non tribal regulations regarding the harvest of elk, deer etc. is a dead end that has already been made clear in numerous Supreme Court rulings dating back over 100 years.
Post by: trophyhunt on April 11, 2019, 04:27:52 PM
Post by: westside Elkhunter on April 11, 2019, 08:01:57 PM
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Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 11, 2019, 08:22:30 PM
Am I reading the proposal right. They are doing away with the Skokomish Rifle elk tag??Looked like it was still there. Did you go to the link in the proposed game regs thread?
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Post by: trophyhunt on April 11, 2019, 08:54:40 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 11, 2019, 09:22:32 PM
Post by: Mr Mykiss on April 12, 2019, 05:02:18 AM
the updated link shows they added a permit to the one he is asking about, it falls at the bottom of the page and appears they cancelled the permits; but actually increased.On the bright side there’ll be a HUGE INCREASE in the number of dreams crushed this year... :chuckle:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 12, 2019, 05:07:33 AM
Post by: Timberstalker on April 12, 2019, 05:10:07 AM
Post by: TriggerMike on April 12, 2019, 08:57:38 AM
The link that bobcat put up on the proposed game regs thread is different than the link that triggermike put up on page 14 of this thread. I guess we will see here shortly which is right.
I believe the link I shared was post commission meeting from this week. The pink numbers were the original proposed tag numbers for this year, pre-commission meeting, and the blue numbers next to some of those ones are the numbers they settled on at the commission meeting and I believe may be contingent on aerial surveys in the next month or so as well as when the 2018 harvest stats come out. So the blue numbers are a placeholder for now. They said this is the case for early antlerless archery in the Colockum as well, contingent on upcoming aerial surveys and harvest stats. My question is why don't they do aerial surveys on the winter range when all the animals are actually on the winter range...? Seems like if they do it in May that a lot of animals will have migrated from the Quilomene back up into the timber and mountains.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 12, 2019, 09:03:29 AM
Post by: Pegasus on April 12, 2019, 09:06:30 AM
My question is why don't they do aerial surveys on the winter range when all the animals are actually on the winter range...? Seems like if they do it in May that a lot of animals will have migrated from the Quilomene back up into the timber and mountains.
Because that makes sense, would dramatically reduce operating costs and would be more accurate.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 12, 2019, 09:21:28 AM
With the regs out the quotas are locked in
Post by: TriggerMike on April 12, 2019, 09:26:47 AM
With the rega out the quotas are locked in
The regs may be out but all of the seasons are not locked in yet.
From page 1 of the link:
Maintain a placeholder for an early archery general elk season in the Colockum and
Yakima elk herd areas until 2018 harvest estimates and 2019 spring survey data are
available
Post by: trophyhunt on April 12, 2019, 10:14:26 AM
Post by: Antlershed on April 12, 2019, 10:41:55 AM
What regs? :dunno:With the regs out the quotas are locked in
Post by: westside Elkhunter on April 12, 2019, 12:04:35 PM
Yes I did. I saw 2 was crossed out. Didn't see another number. I was also looking at it on my phone.Am I reading the proposal right. They are doing away with the Skokomish Rifle elk tag??Looked like it was still there. Did you go to the link in the proposed game regs thread?
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Post by: Pegasus on April 12, 2019, 12:23:52 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 12, 2019, 12:32:39 PM
With the rega out the quotas are locked in
The regs may be out but all of the seasons are not locked in yet.
From page 1 of the link:
Maintain a placeholder for an early archery general elk season in the Colockum and
Yakima elk herd areas until 2018 harvest estimates and 2019 spring survey data are
available
I didn't mention anything about season dates.
Post by: Tbar on April 17, 2019, 09:09:37 AM
The placeholder was from the previous meeting. Timberstalker was correct.With the rega out the quotas are locked in
The regs may be out but all of the seasons are not locked in yet.
From page 1 of the link:
Maintain a placeholder for an early archery general elk season in the Colockum and
Yakima elk herd areas until 2018 harvest estimates and 2019 spring survey data are
available
Post by: gee_unit360 on April 17, 2019, 10:17:39 AM
What regs? :dunno:With the regs out the quotas are locked in
What Regs :dunno:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 20, 2019, 09:49:14 AM
Maybe we saw different sites or something. I think this is the category you're asking about. Bull-mod firearm tagYes I did. I saw 2 was crossed out. Didn't see another number. I was also looking at it on my phone.Am I reading the proposal right. They are doing away with the Skokomish Rifle elk tag??Looked like it was still there. Did you go to the link in the proposed game regs thread?
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