Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 04, 2019, 08:11:17 AM
Center for Biological Diversity and Wild Fish Conservacy....suing the government yet again.
No mention of culling a thousand or so seals, though.
Post by: Mfowl on April 04, 2019, 08:39:09 AM
Post by: kodiak10 on April 04, 2019, 08:54:51 AM
Post by: hothand21 on April 04, 2019, 09:19:04 AM
Post by: noffles on April 04, 2019, 09:26:52 AM
The thing I don't understand is why the environmental groups don't sue to have some sort of outlaw on whale watching in the sound. The commercial whale watching fleet chasing them around has got to have a negative impact on the whales. It seems to be all about removing the negative impacts on the whales they don't care about and keeping the negative impacts they enjoy.
Because people like to blame others and respond emotionally and based on social pressures instead of accepting responsibility as a collective and finding pragmatic solutions. It goes both ways and there is plenty of it happening on here too.
Post by: hothand21 on April 04, 2019, 09:29:25 AM
The thing I don't understand is why the environmental groups don't sue to have some sort of outlaw on whale watching in the sound. The commercial whale watching fleet chasing them around has got to have a negative impact on the whales. It seems to be all about removing the negative impacts on the whales they don't care about and keeping the negative impacts they enjoy.
Because people like to blame others and respond emotionally and based on social pressures instead of accepting responsibility as a collective and finding pragmatic solutions. It goes both ways and there is plenty of it happening on here too.
Preeeeeach!
Post by: Alchase on April 04, 2019, 10:03:47 AM
The thing I don't understand is why the environmental groups don't sue to have some sort of outlaw on whale watching in the sound. The commercial whale watching fleet chasing them around has got to have a negative impact on the whales. It seems to be all about removing the negative impacts on the whales they don't care about and keeping the negative impacts they enjoy.
And kill that $$ source at $1000.00+ a ticket for getting to close?
Post by: Ricochet on April 04, 2019, 10:04:04 AM
Post by: Stein on April 04, 2019, 10:12:18 AM
From there the details come out, the following things are bad for Orcas:
1. Hatchery chinook - they compete with the native fish and hatcheries are failures in general (opinion of the task force as opposed to actual facts)
2. Boats - prop noise, impacts, whatever
3. Fishermen - we catch chinook and love hatchery chinook
4. Global warming - it affects everything, so the ESA can now be used to hammer home things voters rejected multiple times
Then, there are some wish list global warming items and stormwater runoff they can ram ahead with, but the outlook is not good.
Hopefully the Orcas don't develop a taste for Coho or I'll have to be driving to BC way more often - assuming Canada maintains a level of common sense and science based management.
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 04, 2019, 10:34:29 AM
Post by: Stein on April 04, 2019, 10:41:41 AM
Post by: WSU on April 04, 2019, 10:57:23 AM
The 75 whales apparently eat an estimated 25 salmon per day per whale. The yearly total is 684,375. Ocean harvest (I assume based on who was sued it only includes WA, OR, and CA) for 2018 was 250,000, plus 65,000 dead bycatch. Total Chinook killed in 2018 was 315,000. The fisheries reduce Chinook abundance by 18-25 percent.
It's estimated that a 15 percent increase in Chinook, plus noise reduction, will save the whales. The suit only addresses fisheries in WA, OR, and CA but the majority of the ocean harvest occurs in Alaska and Canada. If the reduction to save the whales is taken only out of WA, OR, and CA, it likely means little to no ocean fishing in those 3 states. I'm curious why only the west coast fisheries were targeted and not AK. It may be moot, as NOAA may force AK to share in the pain through the season setting process.
Post by: Stein on April 04, 2019, 11:01:42 AM
The suit only addresses fisheries in WA, OR, and CA but the majority of the ocean harvest occurs in Alaska and Canada. If the reduction to save the whales is taken only out of WA, OR, and CA, it likely means little to no ocean fishing in those 3 states. I'm curious why only the west coast fisheries were targeted and not AK. It may be moot, as NOAA may force AK to share in the pain through the season setting process.
The left coast is an easy win. AK will absolutely fight this and by toppling fishing in a few states, they will have momentum and decisions to use to expand. Same story in BC I would assume, every time I BC logs & lumber rolling by I remember how they treat ESAs in a much different light.
Post by: WSU on April 04, 2019, 11:10:27 AM
Post by: Dysfunctional Vet on April 04, 2019, 11:13:44 AM
Meanwhile the feds support the Makahs desire to resume killing gray whales. Cause everyone I know loves them some whale meat..said no one.. :bash:Actually whale is super tasty. So, now someone’s said it.
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 04, 2019, 11:15:56 AM
Meanwhile the feds support the Makahs desire to resume killing gray whales. Cause everyone I know loves them some whale meat..said no one.. :bash:Actually whale is super tasty. So, now someone’s said it.
:chuckle: well there ya go..must be an acquired taste.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 04, 2019, 11:51:25 AM
Post by: Stein on April 04, 2019, 11:56:36 AM
One of the main predators of the grey whale. Is the orca whale. God knows those huggers in Seattle love the orcas
Not these orcas, apparently they subsist entirely on free range native chinook.
Post by: WSU on April 04, 2019, 11:59:04 AM
Post by: Stein on April 04, 2019, 12:13:37 PM
In particular, the wild fish environmental groups that are active in lawsuits will do everything they can to not allow hatchery chinook production into the discussion on how to keep orcas alive even though it is the fastest, cheapest and most effective solution. They are turning the solution into a fight over a very limited amount of native chinook instead of a strategy where we get ample numbers of chinook so that all things win.
For them, its a zero sum game.
For others, it's a way to go after other issues like dam removal, carbon tax, stormwater runnoff and other unpalatable issues the even Seattle voters have rejected into law or practice without a vote or even a legitimate science-based discussion.
In particular, all they have to do is threaten WDFW and the department will jump up and do their bidding. They often don't even need to go to court, much less win.
I have thought about submitting FOI requests for discussions in person, over the phone or e-mail between department employees and these groups. Those discussions are not part of the public record, aren't included in public meetings or referenced in reports, plans or strategies, but I believe they play a crucial role in the path the department takes on critical issues.
Post by: 7mmfan on April 04, 2019, 12:13:52 PM
Not sure where you are getting the assertion they only eat native Chinook? I understand that HSRG, among others, limits the number of hatchery fish we can pump out in order to save wild fish, but I haven't seen anywhere that says the whales won't eat hatchery fish. Quite the opposite, in fact, and our state was planning to ignore HSRG and pump out an extra 50 million Chinook (I think that's the number). I'm sure that's what got the WFC involved here....
I think the Native Chinook only comment was laced in sarcasm. Orcas can't count fins.
Post by: huntnphool on April 04, 2019, 12:17:25 PM
Post by: WSU on April 04, 2019, 12:34:27 PM
Post by: 7mmfan on April 04, 2019, 12:44:11 PM
Post by: WSU on April 04, 2019, 12:49:00 PM
We could fairly easily transition to an in system broodstock program for the ESA listed chinook.
Is it easy? Where will the smolt come from? How many can you release without getting your HOS and NOS out of whack? Those are honest questions that I don't know the answer to.
Post by: Mfowl on April 04, 2019, 12:51:44 PM
It's a tricky pickle for sure. We have ESA listed whales and ESA listed Chinook. We can pump out Chinook to maybe feed the whales (I say maybe since it won't happen for 4 or 5 years if we released the fish now, which we can't, because we don't have them to release). Current science and policy says doing so will harm the ESA listed Chinook, so you have to harm one ESA listed species to help another. There's no easy path forward that I can see.
It has been my opinion for quite a while now that the damage is done and wild fish stocks will never be what they were or what some groups want them to be again. At least not in this state. Development, urban sprawl and hydro power won't be undone. Pump out the hatchery fish now, use broodstock programs where ever possible and quit fin clipping all salmon. Save the whales, supplement the salmon.
Post by: WSU on April 04, 2019, 12:57:04 PM
It's a tricky pickle for sure. We have ESA listed whales and ESA listed Chinook. We can pump out Chinook to maybe feed the whales (I say maybe since it won't happen for 4 or 5 years if we released the fish now, which we can't, because we don't have them to release). Current science and policy says doing so will harm the ESA listed Chinook, so you have to harm one ESA listed species to help another. There's no easy path forward that I can see.
It has been my opinion for quite a while now that the damage is done and wild fish stocks will never be what they were or what some groups want them to be again. At least not in this state. Development, urban sprawl and hydro power won't be undone. Pump out the hatchery fish now, use broodstock programs where ever possible and quit fin clipping all salmon. Save the whales, supplement the salmon.
Call your senator because that's not what the law is. And that's not to say that I think we are going to bring back a robust run in any number of places. I remember all the creeks coming out of the sammamish having sockeye and coho. Those days are gone and ain't coming back.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 04, 2019, 01:14:33 PM
Post by: 7mmfan on April 04, 2019, 01:18:17 PM
We could fairly easily transition to an in system broodstock program for the ESA listed chinook.
Is it easy? Where will the smolt come from? How many can you release without getting your HOS and NOS out of whack? Those are honest questions that I don't know the answer to.
I’m not a biologist, so I can’t speak all the details. However, we have the infrastructure, and any river with wild returning Chinook provide the fish. Retain enough of those wild Chinook to spawn and create the next release of Smolt. It would probably take a couple of years to get it sorted out, but at least then all the fish that would be returning to system, would have come from that system.
Post by: WSU on April 04, 2019, 01:24:37 PM
Post by: 7mmfan on April 04, 2019, 01:31:13 PM
Maybe we pick rivers that have the largest returns of wild fish currently and start there. That way a significant number of smolt could be released the first to around. In the mean time, rivers with fewer wild fish could begin making the transition and build up to the needed return.
Post by: WSU on April 04, 2019, 01:45:23 PM
But, it's hard to argue that the most immediate and effective way to get more kings eaten by killer whales is to stop killing a million or so of them a year. Fish we release now won't be back for 5 years. That's 5 years where the only answer appears to be harvest.
Post by: Stein on April 04, 2019, 01:54:17 PM
There's probably a number of ways to skin the cat. One way would be to admit defeat in places where we have no reasonable chance at bring wild fish back and use them to pump out billions of fish. Your brood stock idea is another possibility. All if it will probably need some changes made at the legislative level.
But, it's hard to argue that the most immediate and effective way to get more kings eaten by killer whales is to stop killing a million or so of them a year. Fish we release now won't be back for 5 years. That's 5 years where the only answer appears to be harvest.
Or quickly trim down the pinniped population back to where it should be. My guess is that there are several tribes that would be more than willing to help out if given the green light. WA's own congresspeople even are in support of it, but the environmental groups won't be happy and someone would have to stand up to them.
The problem is that there are a bunch of rivers with native chinook on the brink. They aren't recovering even with all the extra attention and it's really messing up a bunch of things - everything from orcas to Lake WA sockeye to sportfishing throughout the area. A huge price is being paid for no progress, simply hoping they don't go extinct.
The groups suing have an answer and it involves blowing up dams, massive watershed projects, no fishing, no hatcheries, carbon taxes and a bunch of other fun stuff. They can't get that though so here we sit at a stale mate.
Post by: WSU on April 04, 2019, 02:02:53 PM
Post by: gaddy on April 04, 2019, 02:30:44 PM
Post by: Smokeploe on April 04, 2019, 08:27:08 PM
Indians train orcas to eat seals
Fish and game train orcas to remove nets
Post by: singleshot12 on April 05, 2019, 05:58:53 AM
Along with the Pinnipeds, how about the nets. I know it will take a few cycles but it seems that every year would generate more and more if they were allowed to spawn. A 100,000 spawning this year would generate more spawning the next and so on if the nets weren't there. :dunno:
Shhhh! it's not PC anymore to blame nets. Of coarse nets are responsible for wiping out whole runs of native salmon/steelhead strains.
Post by: Taco280AI on April 05, 2019, 06:27:49 AM
One potential problem is that it may take a few spawning cycles to build up enough fish. Even if it is two cycles, you are looking at a decade.
Better get started then.
And drastically reduce sea lion populations.
Get rid of the nets on the rivers.
Post by: Stein on April 05, 2019, 07:57:18 AM
Try this on for size
Indians train orcas to eat seals
Fish and game train orcas to remove nets
The transient orcas eat seals all the time, they get them trapped in Hood Canal sometimes and crush them. The resident orcas don't for the most part.
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 05, 2019, 08:12:09 AM
Try this on for size
Indians train orcas to eat seals
Fish and game train orcas to remove nets
The transient orcas eat seals all the time, they get them trapped in Hood Canal sometimes and crush them. The resident orcas don't for the most part.
How do we really know the resident orca's don't...because the state says so. Who do we believe anymore. I find it difficult to wrap my head around the idea that resident Orca's have developed a selective taste for Chinook salmon. If an Orca is hungry and see's a Coho, Pink or Chum its says to itself, no thanks I want a Chinook... Or the whole Chinook narrative just a politically driven ploy to attempt to shutdown salmon fishing on the west coast. I think more influences are at play than food resources. How about pollution, harassment by whale watching boats (I know this is addressed in the suit), what about nuke subs running in and out, how about the dozens of cruise ships and container ships that come and go daily...….anyone been under water when those things go by...holy cow the propulsion echo is crazy. Same thing with ferries.
I guess I'm just venting by but I don't buy into the selective chinook food source narrative.
Post by: Crunchy on April 05, 2019, 09:32:39 AM
Post by: Stein on April 05, 2019, 10:00:15 AM
Also, with the huge numbers of seals, the orcas wouldn't be starving if they were a food source.
It is somewhat strange that the resident orcas spend most of their time around here but don't utilize an abundant and year-round food source that the transient orcas do.
Anyway, it isn't like science is a factor in these decisions anyway.
Post by: Alchase on April 05, 2019, 10:20:56 AM
However, the feeding habits of the different populations of orcas are well known. Resident killer whales, inhabiting eastern North Pacific waters, feed primarily on salmon, particularly chinook salmon or king salmon (Oncorhynchus tshawytscha). By contrast, transient orcas in the same region prefer marine mammals such as harbor seals (Phoca vitulina), elephant seals (Mirounga Genre), porpoises (Phocoenidae family), sea lions (subfamily Otariinae), minke whales (Balaenoptera acutorostrata and Balaenoptera bonaerensis) and others.
Across the world, in Norwegian waters, they go after schools of fish and manifest preference for herring (Clupea Genre). New Zealand waters orcas prefer rays and sharks (Both Elasmobranchii Subclass) and those living in Antarctic feed on seals (Family Phocidae), minke whales and several species of fish such as the Antarctic toothfish (Dissostichus mawsoni).
This one is from WIKI
"Fish-eating killer whales prey on around 30 species of fish. Some populations in the Norwegian and Greenland sea specialize in herring and follow that fish's autumnal migration to the Norwegian coast. Salmon account for 96% of northeast Pacific residents' diet, including 65% of large, fatty Chinook.[95] Chum salmon are also eaten, but smaller sockeye and pink salmon are not a significant food item.[96] Depletion of specific prey species in an area is, therefore, cause for concern for local populations, despite the high diversity of prey. On average, a killer whale eats 227 kilograms (500 lb) each day.[97] While salmon are usually hunted by an individual whale or a small group, herring are often caught using carousel feeding: the killer whales force the herring into a tight ball by releasing bursts of bubbles or flashing their white undersides. They then slap the ball with their tail flukes, stunning or killing up to 15 fish at a time, then eating them one by one. Carousel feeding has only been documented in the Norwegian killer whale population, as well as some oceanic dolphin species.[98] "
and
"Northeast Pacific resident groups tend to be much more vocal than transient groups in the same waters.[137] Residents feed primarily on Chinook and chum salmon, species that are insensitive to killer whale calls (inferred from the audio-gram of Atlantic salmon). In contrast, the marine mammal prey of transients hear well underwater at the frequencies used in killer whale calls. As such, transients are typically silent, probably to avoid alerting their mammalian prey"
Males will change Pods to mate, L87 (i think) has been with K pod for 10 years.
This one is from the center of Whale research
"Their focused distribution in the summer time is due to large numbers of Pacific Northwest salmon returning to the Fraser River in British Columbia. In recent years, during the autumn months, the Southern Residents have shifted their travel patterns southward, following salmon heading to rivers draining into Greater Puget Sound. During the winter months, however, the whales spend increasing amounts of their time in the outer coastal waters; and, in recent years, some members of the Southern Resident community, K and L pods, have been observed as far south as Monterey, California, and as far north as the Haida Gwaii (formerly Queen Charlotte Islands), British Columbia. On several occasions, all three Southern Resident community pods have been observed returning in late spring to the inland waters of the Salish Sea by way of Johnstone Strait at the north end of Vancouver Island."
In 1999, Hundreds of people my family included, witnessed the L Pod come into Newport Bay, OR. and slaughter a bunch of sea lions that were herded up in the middle of the bay. The whales dove under the whole group of sea lions and exploded up throwing them everywhere. Sea lions were climbing on any boat or dock to get out of the water. The bay was red with blood in the middle.
So they know the "fish eating whales" do eat sea mammals when the urge is on them.
Post by: Whitpirate on April 05, 2019, 05:59:20 PM
It's a tricky pickle for sure. We have ESA listed whales and ESA listed Chinook. We can pump out Chinook to maybe feed the whales (I say maybe since it won't happen for 4 or 5 years if we released the fish now, which we can't, because we don't have them to release). Current science and policy says doing so will harm the ESA listed Chinook, so you have to harm one ESA listed species to help another. There's no easy path forward that I can see.
The Mountain Caribou herd says adapt or die.... didn't seem to matter to the wolf lovers.
Post by: CAMPMEAT on April 06, 2019, 02:14:19 PM
:bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
Post by: Crunchy on April 06, 2019, 02:33:10 PM
Post by: Special T on April 06, 2019, 02:46:13 PM
Why does the left, extremist envirofreaks always win at everything the sue over ?Because they are organized, do all the ground work, folks that give big to the cause... and they play for keeps.
:bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
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Post by: Stein on April 06, 2019, 06:23:55 PM
There are even times when they THINK they may sue and take a course to avoid.
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Post by: CAMPMEAT on April 06, 2019, 06:28:33 PM
Why does the left, extremist envirofreaks always win at everything the sue over ?Because they are organized, do all the ground work, folks that give big to the cause... and they play for keeps.
:bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Cause the 9th circut is run by liberal judges.
Couldn't agree more. And just think, hunters are the biggest conservationist in the country.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 06, 2019, 08:01:24 PM
Post by: Special T on April 07, 2019, 06:02:37 AM
Don't forget when the enviro groups win which is most times their lawyers fees are reimbursed. Sure wish that decision was overturned.Or perhaps sportsmen need to adopt the same model...
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Post by: Dysfunctional Vet on April 12, 2019, 03:53:50 PM