Post by: D-Rock425 on June 20, 2019, 10:05:39 AM
Post by: benhuntin on June 20, 2019, 10:10:01 AM
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Post by: D-Rock425 on June 20, 2019, 10:12:03 AM
Yea, they update them throughout the year as tickets are soldI couldn't find anything I'll look again.
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Post by: JimmyHoffa on June 20, 2019, 06:47:54 PM
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/special-hunts/raffles
Post by: JimmyHoffa on June 20, 2019, 06:49:59 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on June 20, 2019, 09:15:29 PM
Post by: jackelope on June 20, 2019, 09:39:12 PM
It's funny how they re-update them after a stern phone call. It's a pretty comical raffle if you actually expect them to update the numbers when they say they will. To the right person, it's worthy of a lawsuit. :twocents:
Not sure when they ‘say’ they will update the numbers, but they’ve consistently updated the numbers every Monday for the last several weeks. When do they say they will?
Post by: idahohuntr on June 20, 2019, 09:45:48 PM
Post by: jackelope on June 20, 2019, 09:47:58 PM
I'm guessing a few more stern calls and they just pull the sales data and post it once...AFTER the draw. :yike: :chuckle:
That would be kind of cool actually.
Post by: MtnMuley on June 20, 2019, 10:02:59 PM
It's funny how they re-update them after a stern phone call. It's a pretty comical raffle if you actually expect them to update the numbers when they say they will. To the right person, it's worthy of a lawsuit. :twocents:
Not sure when they ‘say’ they will update the numbers, but they’ve consistently updated the numbers every Monday for the last several weeks. When do they say they will?
You obviously haven't followed the raffles closely the last several years. Many times it takes months to update. If they state it will be updated weekly on a certain date, it should be updated accordingly for those who participate. Am I wrong?
Post by: jackelope on June 20, 2019, 10:07:22 PM
It's funny how they re-update them after a stern phone call. It's a pretty comical raffle if you actually expect them to update the numbers when they say they will. To the right person, it's worthy of a lawsuit. :twocents:
Not sure when they ‘say’ they will update the numbers, but they’ve consistently updated the numbers every Monday for the last several weeks. When do they say they will?
You obviously haven't followed the raffles closely the last several years. Many times it takes months to update. If they state it will be updated weekly on a certain date, it should be updated accordingly for those who participate. Am I wrong?
No, you’re not wrong. But they have been updating weekly this year. Every Monday, like clockwork. That’s why I didn’t understand what your point was. Are you implying that the “stern phone call” changed their process 6-ish weeks ago?
Post by: MtnMuley on June 20, 2019, 10:12:53 PM
Main point is: If WDFW says they're going to update the numbers weekly on a certain day, they need to follow through. During a "raffle", when money is involved, all criteria needs to be met.
Post by: jackelope on June 20, 2019, 10:17:41 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on June 20, 2019, 10:19:11 PM
Post by: jackelope on June 20, 2019, 10:25:59 PM
No sense being a smartass mod
Huh?
You pointed out that a stern phone call was made to keep them in line. I thanked you for doing it. I’ve got a few bucks in it this year and I appreciate the regular updates. It’s got nothing to do with being a moderator.
Post by: Bango skank on June 20, 2019, 10:46:02 PM
It's funny how they re-update them after a stern phone call. It's a pretty comical raffle if you actually expect them to update the numbers when they say they will. To the right person, it's worthy of a lawsuit. :twocents:
Not sure when they ‘say’ they will update the numbers, but they’ve consistently updated the numbers every Monday for the last several weeks. When do they say they will?
You obviously haven't followed the raffles closely the last several years. Many times it takes months to update. If they state it will be updated weekly on a certain date, it should be updated accordingly for those who participate. Am I wrong?
No, you’re not wrong. But they have been updating weekly this year. Every Monday, like clockwork. That’s why I didn’t understand what your point was. Are you implying that the “stern phone call” changed their process 6-ish weeks ago?
No, the last few weeks they have, but in april they went 3 weeks without updating. i emailed them and complained.
Post by: Rainier10 on June 21, 2019, 08:55:10 AM
Serious questions here and not being a jerk.It's funny how they re-update them after a stern phone call. It's a pretty comical raffle if you actually expect them to update the numbers when they say they will. To the right person, it's worthy of a lawsuit. :twocents:
Not sure when they ‘say’ they will update the numbers, but they’ve consistently updated the numbers every Monday for the last several weeks. When do they say they will?
You obviously haven't followed the raffles closely the last several years. Many times it takes months to update. If they state it will be updated weekly on a certain date, it should be updated accordingly for those who participate. Am I wrong?
No, you’re not wrong. But they have been updating weekly this year. Every Monday, like clockwork. That’s why I didn’t understand what your point was. Are you implying that the “stern phone call” changed their process 6-ish weeks ago?
No, the last few weeks they have, but in april they went 3 weeks without updating. i emailed them and complained.
When did raffle sales start? I would have thought they started after the regs came out and I would have thought that would have been in mid April.
Did they update one week after sales started and then not update for three weeks or did they go on sale but not update for three weeks?
I really am asking because just out of curiosity.
First I checked them was 4/22 and then again on 5/13 but I don't know if they posted results before that or in between those dates.
I am guessing your complaint was between the 4/22 and 5/13 updates and they took action.
What I took away from witnessing the draw this year is the WDFW really is trying to be transparent and get as much information to the public as possible in a timely manner.
Post by: idahohuntr on June 21, 2019, 09:29:58 AM
The more I think about it, this makes perfect sense and is a win for WDFW...I'll start working on lobbying them hard on this soon!! Hopefully this change can be implemented next year. Once they realize their ability to make more $$ it won't take long to implement. :chuckle:
Post by: Caseyd on June 21, 2019, 09:37:35 AM
Seems like a waste of staff resources to post ticket sales regularly. I'm going to email/call and suggest they stop providing sales data until after the draw. My guess is they would make more money doing this anyways...people wouldn't know the numbers and you might actually entice more people to drop big sums of $$ since they would not know if other big spenders were after the same tag. No other state does this with their raffles that I'm aware of and they don't provide app numbers real time for the regular draw...so I see no reason to do it here.
The more I think about it, this makes perfect sense and is a win for WDFW...I'll start working on lobbying them hard on this soon!! Hopefully this change can be implemented next year. Once they realize their ability to make more $$ it won't take long to implement. :chuckle:
Maybe it’s a stipulation of the Wa Gaming Commission
Post by: MtnMuley on June 21, 2019, 10:13:56 AM
Seems like a waste of staff resources to post ticket sales regularly. I'm going to email/call and suggest they stop providing sales data until after the draw. My guess is they would make more money doing this anyways...people wouldn't know the numbers and you might actually entice more people to drop big sums of $$ since they would not know if other big spenders were after the same tag. No other state does this with their raffles that I'm aware of and they don't provide app numbers real time for the regular draw...so I see no reason to do it here.
The more I think about it, this makes perfect sense and is a win for WDFW...I'll start working on lobbying them hard on this soon!! Hopefully this change can be implemented next year. Once they realize their ability to make more $$ it won't take long to implement. :chuckle:
You're so cool behind that keyboard. I love to meet up for coffee to discuss this as I've mentioned before. What's wrong with WDFW saying they will be updated weekly and them not keeping up with what they say? If I'm investing money, then they better keep their word. That goes for all of us that apply for raffles.
Such a waste of resources to take 5 minutes to post weekly updates. :stup:
Post by: MtnMuley on June 21, 2019, 10:16:48 AM
Serious questions here and not being a jerk.It's funny how they re-update them after a stern phone call. It's a pretty comical raffle if you actually expect them to update the numbers when they say they will. To the right person, it's worthy of a lawsuit. :twocents:
Not sure when they ‘say’ they will update the numbers, but they’ve consistently updated the numbers every Monday for the last several weeks. When do they say they will?
You obviously haven't followed the raffles closely the last several years. Many times it takes months to update. If they state it will be updated weekly on a certain date, it should be updated accordingly for those who participate. Am I wrong?
No, you’re not wrong. But they have been updating weekly this year. Every Monday, like clockwork. That’s why I didn’t understand what your point was. Are you implying that the “stern phone call” changed their process 6-ish weeks ago?
No, the last few weeks they have, but in april they went 3 weeks without updating. i emailed them and complained.
When did raffle sales start? I would have thought they started after the regs came out and I would have thought that would have been in mid April.
Did they update one week after sales started and then not update for three weeks or did they go on sale but not update for three weeks?
I really am asking because just out of curiosity.
First I checked them was 4/22 and then again on 5/13 but I don't know if they posted results before that or in between those dates.
I am guessing your complaint was between the 4/22 and 5/13 updates and they took action.
What I took away from witnessing the draw this year is the WDFW really is trying to be transparent and get as much information to the public as possible in a timely manner.
I was mainly referring to the past several years. Updates have basically never been weekly like they claim. Calls have been made and updates have came. It shouldn't have to be that way.
Post by: Rainier10 on June 21, 2019, 10:38:32 AM
I think Bushcraft was pushing big for better updates the year that he got involved in the goat raffle too.
Seems like the multiple requests, calls and emails have worked and they are getting them out on a more regular basis now.
It's nice to see them act on requests from the customers.
Post by: idahohuntr on June 21, 2019, 11:55:17 AM
IF WDFW is going to sell or raffle away wildlife I want them to get what makes the most money to provide the greatest benefit to the public who owns those resources...not cater to the whiners and complainers because they want their recent $5k purchase to be reflected in recent raffle sales so as to discourage others from jumping in. If you want to participate in a venue where you know the amount needed to "win" a tag...participate in the auctions, they provide very rapid updates on the current price... real time :chuckle:Seems like a waste of staff resources to post ticket sales regularly. I'm going to email/call and suggest they stop providing sales data until after the draw. My guess is they would make more money doing this anyways...people wouldn't know the numbers and you might actually entice more people to drop big sums of $$ since they would not know if other big spenders were after the same tag. No other state does this with their raffles that I'm aware of and they don't provide app numbers real time for the regular draw...so I see no reason to do it here.
The more I think about it, this makes perfect sense and is a win for WDFW...I'll start working on lobbying them hard on this soon!! Hopefully this change can be implemented next year. Once they realize their ability to make more $$ it won't take long to implement. :chuckle:
You're so cool behind that keyboard. I love to meet up for coffee to discuss this as I've mentioned before. What's wrong with WDFW saying they will be updated weekly and them not keeping up with what they say? If I'm investing money, then they better keep their word. That goes for all of us that apply for raffles.
Such a waste of resources to take 5 minutes to post weekly updates. :stup:
If you consider purchasing raffle tickets "investing money"...well... :stup: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: jackelope on June 21, 2019, 12:15:49 PM
Post by: idaho guy on June 21, 2019, 12:16:55 PM
IF WDFW is going to sell or raffle away wildlife I want them to get what makes the most money to provide the greatest benefit to the public who owns those resources...not cater to the whiners and complainers because they want their recent $5k purchase to be reflected in recent raffle sales so as to discourage others from jumping in. If you want to participate in a venue where you know the amount needed to "win" a tag...participate in the auctions, they provide very rapid updates on the current price... real time :chuckle:Seems like a waste of staff resources to post ticket sales regularly. I'm going to email/call and suggest they stop providing sales data until after the draw. My guess is they would make more money doing this anyways...people wouldn't know the numbers and you might actually entice more people to drop big sums of $$ since they would not know if other big spenders were after the same tag. No other state does this with their raffles that I'm aware of and they don't provide app numbers real time for the regular draw...so I see no reason to do it here.
The more I think about it, this makes perfect sense and is a win for WDFW...I'll start working on lobbying them hard on this soon!! Hopefully this change can be implemented next year. Once they realize their ability to make more $$ it won't take long to implement. :chuckle:
You're so cool behind that keyboard. I love to meet up for coffee to discuss this as I've mentioned before. What's wrong with WDFW saying they will be updated weekly and them not keeping up with what they say? If I'm investing money, then they better keep their word. That goes for all of us that apply for raffles.
Such a waste of resources to take 5 minutes to post weekly updates. :stup:
If you consider purchasing raffle tickets "investing money"...well... :stup: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Ya I hate transparency too when it comes to government departments. It feels really good when I know they are not disclosing facts to the people so they can get even more money. On the flipside maybe more "small dollar" people will actually buy the ticket or 2 when they at least know what the odds are. I know many people who refuse to buy huntin fool raffles because they don't disclose any odds at all. Even if my odds are .001% I personally feel more comfortable throwing money at the chance when I know what it is regardless of odds. I still agree the government purposefully withholding information to make more money is a great idea though :chuckle:
Post by: MtnMuley on June 21, 2019, 02:12:08 PM
I'm also not trying to be a smartass, but am wondering where they say they'll post it every X number of days, weekly or whatever. I just looked because I didn't recall seeing it posted online and I don't see it. Maybe there's a WAC somewhere or something that says they need to. I don't have time to dig into that. Really just curious now. I bet not seeing the sales numbers would encourage others to jump in as well. When the number of raffle tickets jumps suddenly by 1000 tickets, I'm out because a high roller just threw down and there's pretty much no point. If I couldn't see that, I might still be interested in jumping in for a few bucks here and there. I'm not even remotely close to a high roller for the record.
They've apparently taken that off these days. It used to say at the top before the raffles. I don't see it now anyway.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on June 21, 2019, 08:49:10 PM
There was a big gap in updating. I know it was updated somewhere in late April, and then not again for a few weeks. They were doing it weekly before, then had a delay, and now it seems to be weekly. I got really curious because subtracting the numbers I had before the late delay from the previous update led me to believe there were a few thousand tickets sold in one particular category. Then after the update it was only like a quarter of what I was coming up with. The weekly updates are nice.Serious questions here and not being a jerk.It's funny how they re-update them after a stern phone call. It's a pretty comical raffle if you actually expect them to update the numbers when they say they will. To the right person, it's worthy of a lawsuit. :twocents:
Not sure when they ‘say’ they will update the numbers, but they’ve consistently updated the numbers every Monday for the last several weeks. When do they say they will?
You obviously haven't followed the raffles closely the last several years. Many times it takes months to update. If they state it will be updated weekly on a certain date, it should be updated accordingly for those who participate. Am I wrong?
No, you’re not wrong. But they have been updating weekly this year. Every Monday, like clockwork. That’s why I didn’t understand what your point was. Are you implying that the “stern phone call” changed their process 6-ish weeks ago?
No, the last few weeks they have, but in april they went 3 weeks without updating. i emailed them and complained.
When did raffle sales start? I would have thought they started after the regs came out and I would have thought that would have been in mid April.
Did they update one week after sales started and then not update for three weeks or did they go on sale but not update for three weeks?
I really am asking because just out of curiosity.
First I checked them was 4/22 and then again on 5/13 but I don't know if they posted results before that or in between those dates.
I am guessing your complaint was between the 4/22 and 5/13 updates and they took action.
What I took away from witnessing the draw this year is the WDFW really is trying to be transparent and get as much information to the public as possible in a timely manner.
Post by: Threewolves on June 29, 2019, 09:15:15 AM
The first time I put in for the raffle I bought one tickets for each animal back when is was 5 plus dollars a try. I won the goat tag. I guess you could say I am a super lucky smart ass.
Because I think it was two years before the above I drew a goat tag in the regular draw (Not the raffle) the year before it went to once in a life time. Yep I could tell you how I am sitting on 24 points for sheep, 21 (again) for goat, 20 for moose, but I won't. If you want to hunt that stuff save your money and go to AK. Don't wait 24 plus years.
So, I'll buy one raffle for each, hopefully be a super lucky polite smart ass and be grateful I can hunt elk.
Post by: teanawayslayer on June 29, 2019, 10:21:04 AM
Wow this looks like fun. I do not mind being a smart ass. I am usually a polite smart ass. Guys the raffle, the draw its luck. I am just grateful I can hunt elkluck is the name of the game. I wouldn’t say your being a smart ass. But more bragging than anything. But I guess if I had your luck I’d do the same :chuckle:
The first time I put in for the raffle I bought one tickets for each animal back when is was 5 plus dollars a try. I won the goat tag. I guess you could say I am a super lucky smart ass.
Because I think it was two years before the above I drew a goat tag in the regular draw (Not the raffle) the year before it went to once in a life time. Yep I could tell you how I am sitting on 24 points for sheep, 21 (again) for goat, 20 for moose, but I won't. If you want to hunt that stuff save your money and go to AK. Don't wait 24 plus years.
So, I'll buy one raffle for each, hopefully be a super lucky polite smart ass and be grateful I can hunt elk.
I’ve probably spent over 10k in tickets in the past 4 years. The closest I’ve ever came in was the fifth looser. Had a buddy several years ago didn’t know the raffle existed until I told him about it. 8 mule deer tickets and winner winner chicken dinner! Luck luck luck. This year I scaled way back my odds will be just as good and my bank account won’t look so bleak. :tup:
Post by: Threewolves on June 29, 2019, 11:23:33 AM
You may be right on that bragging thing.
Your investments in raffle tickets: aggressive, I like it, better than waiting on 24 sheep points to pay off.
MY brag: I got both my grandsons at age 11 & 13 on deer, does back to back just shy of 250 yards, one shot each. It was one of the coolest things I have ever been associated with it was all about the boys.
Post by: trophyhunt on June 29, 2019, 11:42:22 AM
Post by: teanawayslayer on June 29, 2019, 11:47:11 AM
T/Sthats something to be proud of! Love it when it’s about the kids. My son got his first buck when he was 9 3x3 with eyeguards. Maybe 80 yards. He still doesn’t like to shoot over a 100. He shoots great out to 400 when we target shoot but hesitates on animals. I’m sure he will get over it.
You may be right on that bragging thing.
Your investments in raffle tickets: aggressive, I like it, better than waiting on 24 sheep points to pay off.
MY brag: I got both my grandsons at age 11 & 13 on deer, does back to back just shy of 250 yards, one shot each. It was one of the coolest things I have ever been associated with it was all about the boys.
Post by: Stein on June 29, 2019, 02:27:31 PM
Post by: teanawayslayer on June 29, 2019, 02:52:16 PM
They should make all the quality tags a raffle, $13 per ticket. :peep:they pretty much already are. The only difference is you can only buy one chance. Odds are not good on either
Post by: X-Force on June 29, 2019, 03:04:47 PM
Post by: Tbar on June 29, 2019, 03:27:21 PM
I thought the raffles were supposed to be updated weekly 😒Where does it say that they update weekly?
Post by: Tbar on June 29, 2019, 03:43:56 PM
Post by: X-Force on June 29, 2019, 09:16:03 PM
I thought the raffles were supposed to be updated weekly 😒Where does it say that they update weekly?
It doesn’t. There are members on here who harass Wdfw each week to post new numbers.
Post by: MtnMuley on June 29, 2019, 10:20:59 PM
I thought the raffles were supposed to be updated weekly 😒Where does it say that they update weekly?
It doesn’t. There are members on here who harass Wdfw each week to post new numbers.
In years past it said they would be updated weekly. It doesn't this year. It's not called harassing when they don't do what they say they're going to do when money is involved. You don't agree?
Post by: jackelope on June 30, 2019, 12:19:54 PM
By the way, they missed a week.
Post by: trophyhunt on June 30, 2019, 01:10:12 PM
Post by: Bushcraft on June 30, 2019, 01:11:25 PM
They should do away with the hybrid auction/raffle.
Why?
Post by: jackelope on June 30, 2019, 02:37:14 PM
They should do away with the hybrid auction/raffle.
Why?
It’s not really a “raffle” when individuals are dropping 10’s of thousands of dollars on tickets.
Post by: Tbar on June 30, 2019, 03:00:10 PM
For a variety of reasons, first I am not a fan of commercialization of wildlife. It's a shared resource owned by the people in accordance with the north American model of wildlife management. Second I will caveat my all out opposition with a low level of support IF they capped the number one person can purchase.They should do away with the hybrid auction/raffle.
Why?
What is the intent of the hybrid raffle? To generate revenue? Well look at the averages over an extended period of time and cross reference them to the auction (do you see maximum roi). Now the idea that any average citizen can win, this is absolutely true but statistically unlikely. If you believe in luck your odds are far better in Vegas slot machines than these "raffles". Sometimes Mr. Big loses ( i.e. you) and that's part of the game, that said if you ran the same drawing that you lost repeatedly you would eventually have won 70+% of the time. (I'll write a little more when I get time)
Lastly, whether you agree with them or not, and with the long odds created by people "flooding" the raffles there is still tremendous value in playing the game. (I'll expand on this as will if time allows) Go buy a few tickets if you have the extra funds.
Post by: Bushcraft on June 30, 2019, 03:11:15 PM
They should do away with the hybrid auction/raffle.
Why?
It’s not really a “raffle” when individuals are dropping 10’s of thousands of dollars on tickets.
I beg to differ sir.
Speaking from experience, I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that whenever there's a chance of not having your raffle ticket drawn first...it's most definitely a "raffle". :chuckle: ;)
Post by: Bushcraft on June 30, 2019, 03:53:52 PM
For a variety of reasons, first I am not a fan of commercialization of wildlife. It's a shared resource owned by the people in accordance with the north American model of wildlife management. Second I will caveat my all out opposition with a low level of support IF they capped the number one person can purchase.They should do away with the hybrid auction/raffle.
Why?
What is the intent of the hybrid raffle? To generate revenue? Well look at the averages over an extended period of time and cross reference them to the auction (do you see maximum roi). Now the idea that any average citizen can win, this is absolutely true but statistically unlikely. If you believe in luck your odds are far better in Vegas slot machines than these "raffles". Sometimes Mr. Big loses ( i.e. you) and that's part of the game, that said if you ran the same drawing that you lost repeatedly you would eventually have won 70+% of the time. (I'll write a little more when I get time)
Lastly, whether you agree with them or not, and with the long odds created by people "flooding" the raffles there is still tremendous value in playing the game. (I'll expand on this as will if time allows) Go buy a few tickets if you have the extra funds.
Not a fan of commercialization of wildlife??? You do buy a license and tags every year, right? Would you prefer that you not have to buy one to participate? :dunno: :chuckle:
The bottom line with the raffle is that everyone...let me repeat...everyone that is willing to buy a raffle ticket (or a special hunt permit application for that matter) will buy one for exactly the very reason that people play the lottery: It's a chance that costs next to nothing for a potentially massive live-changing Powerball payout.
What you and I presume others that share your view are missing is that, much like the special hunt permit applications, the number of people that play the raffle already account for nearly all of the number of people that are willing to participate. That number is essentially largely static as a percentage of hunters. And, that static percentage of hunters are not going to triple, or 10x or 30x the number of raffle tickets they are willing to buy. Think about it, if you go all in for all the raffle tickets, I think is north of $125 these days. Having been to, and run, a TON of wildlife conservation fundraisers, I can tell you that most hunters simply will not fork out that kind of dough, for budgetary constraints or whatever the reason.
If you cap an individual's participation rate to only a few tickets, the number of Mr. Bigs and the tens of thousands of dollars they are be willing to shovel into the raffles every year for the chance to win would dry up faster than a piss puddle in Death Valley in the middle of August. Whoops! That is a tremendous amount of lost revenue. There goes the "commercialized" proceeds that WDFW would have otherwise been able to be put to work for the stewardship of wild places and wild things. Bummer.
The unintended consequences of not critically thinking through things is a bitch. ;)
Post by: Tbar on June 30, 2019, 04:00:45 PM
Your hypothetical self serving ideas are amazing! Just like your goat raffle flooded topic, self serving and an attempt to dissuade people from playing the game. Irony in the results and your subsequent temper tantrum on statistics.For a variety of reasons, first I am not a fan of commercialization of wildlife. It's a shared resource owned by the people in accordance with the north American model of wildlife management. Second I will caveat my all out opposition with a low level of support IF they capped the number one person can purchase.They should do away with the hybrid auction/raffle.
Why?
What is the intent of the hybrid raffle? To generate revenue? Well look at the averages over an extended period of time and cross reference them to the auction (do you see maximum roi). Now the idea that any average citizen can win, this is absolutely true but statistically unlikely. If you believe in luck your odds are far better in Vegas slot machines than these "raffles". Sometimes Mr. Big loses ( i.e. you) and that's part of the game, that said if you ran the same drawing that you lost repeatedly you would eventually have won 70+% of the time. (I'll write a little more when I get time)
Lastly, whether you agree with them or not, and with the long odds created by people "flooding" the raffles there is still tremendous value in playing the game. (I'll expand on this as will if time allows) Go buy a few tickets if you have the extra funds.
Not a fan of commercialization of wildlife??? You do buy a license and tags every year, right? Would you prefer that you not have to buy one to participate? :dunno: :chuckle:
The bottom line with the raffle is that everyone...let me repeat...everyone that is willing to buy a raffle ticket (or a special hunt permit application for that matter) will buy one for exactly the very reason that people play the lottery: It's a chance that costs next to nothing for a potentially massive live-changing Powerball payout.
What you and I presume others that share your view are missing is that, much like the special hunt permit applications, the number of people that play the raffle already account for nearly all of the number of people that are willing to participate. That number is essentially largely static as a percentage of hunters. And, that static percentage of hunters are not going to triple, or 10x or 30x the number of raffle tickets they are willing to buy. Think about it, if you go all in for all the raffle tickets, I think is north of $125 these days. Having been to, and run, a TON of wildlife conservation fundraisers, I can tell you that most hunters simply will not fork out that kind of dough, for budgetary constraints or whatever the reason.
If you cap an individual's participation rate to only a few tickets, the number of Mr. Bigs and the tens of thousands of dollars they are be willing to shovel into the raffles every year for the chance to win would dry up faster than a piss puddle in Death Valley in the middle of August. Whoops! That is a tremendous amount of lost revenue. There goes the "commercialized" proceeds that WDFW would have otherwise been able to be put to work for the stewardship of wild places and wild things. Bummer.
The unintended consequences of not critically thinking through things is a bitch. ;)
Post by: Bushcraft on June 30, 2019, 05:43:18 PM
Your hypothetical self serving ideas are amazing! Just like your goat raffle flooded topic, self serving and an attempt to dissuade people from playing the game. Irony in the results and your subsequent temper tantrum on statistics.For a variety of reasons, first I am not a fan of commercialization of wildlife. It's a shared resource owned by the people in accordance with the north American model of wildlife management. Second I will caveat my all out opposition with a low level of support IF they capped the number one person can purchase.They should do away with the hybrid auction/raffle.
Why?
What is the intent of the hybrid raffle? To generate revenue? Well look at the averages over an extended period of time and cross reference them to the auction (do you see maximum roi). Now the idea that any average citizen can win, this is absolutely true but statistically unlikely. If you believe in luck your odds are far better in Vegas slot machines than these "raffles". Sometimes Mr. Big loses ( i.e. you) and that's part of the game, that said if you ran the same drawing that you lost repeatedly you would eventually have won 70+% of the time. (I'll write a little more when I get time)
Lastly, whether you agree with them or not, and with the long odds created by people "flooding" the raffles there is still tremendous value in playing the game. (I'll expand on this as will if time allows) Go buy a few tickets if you have the extra funds.
Not a fan of commercialization of wildlife??? You do buy a license and tags every year, right? Would you prefer that you not have to buy one to participate? :dunno: :chuckle:
The bottom line with the raffle is that everyone...let me repeat...everyone that is willing to buy a raffle ticket (or a special hunt permit application for that matter) will buy one for exactly the very reason that people play the lottery: It's a chance that costs next to nothing for a potentially massive live-changing Powerball payout.
What you and I presume others that share your view are missing is that, much like the special hunt permit applications, the number of people that play the raffle already account for nearly all of the number of people that are willing to participate. That number is essentially largely static as a percentage of hunters. And, that static percentage of hunters are not going to triple, or 10x or 30x the number of raffle tickets they are willing to buy. Think about it, if you go all in for all the raffle tickets, I think is north of $125 these days. Having been to, and run, a TON of wildlife conservation fundraisers, I can tell you that most hunters simply will not fork out that kind of dough, for budgetary constraints or whatever the reason.
If you cap an individual's participation rate to only a few tickets, the number of Mr. Bigs and the tens of thousands of dollars they are be willing to shovel into the raffles every year for the chance to win would dry up faster than a piss puddle in Death Valley in the middle of August. Whoops! That is a tremendous amount of lost revenue. There goes the "commercialized" proceeds that WDFW would have otherwise been able to be put to work for the stewardship of wild places and wild things. Bummer.
The unintended consequences of not critically thinking through things is a bitch. ;)
Happy to so easily amaze you Tbar.
As an aside, I recall reading somewhere that easily amazed people generally have lower IQ's. Not surprisingly, they also have a strong tendency to come to easily refuted conclusions that have big, giant, utterly obvious, gaping holes in their dimly thought-through calculus. Not suggesting that you have a low IQ of course, but I digress.
Anyway, it's been years since I ate my goat raffle tag crow. But, by all means, keep on crowing away anonymously from the cheap seats. Sprinkle some Envy Butter and Jealousy Salt on that popcorn while you're at it. ;)
Post by: Tbar on June 30, 2019, 05:47:20 PM
Post by: Bushcraft on June 30, 2019, 05:50:06 PM
Openly admit I have a low IQ ( ;)). Back on topic let's get down to raffle numbers. They give an average joe a better than average chance to draw when compared to the general draw.
No question.
Post by: Tbar on June 30, 2019, 06:30:48 PM
You will be apologetic for this exchange. I hope you stand behind your words as they are memorialized. This is by no means a threat just know our paths will certainly cross. The stage is not always huntwa.Openly admit I have a low IQ ( ;)). Back on topic let's get down to raffle numbers. They give an average joe a better than average chance to draw when compared to the general draw.
No question.
Post by: X-Force on June 30, 2019, 06:51:03 PM
You will be apologetic for this exchange. I hope you stand behind your words as they are memorialized. This is by no means a threat just know our paths will certainly cross. The stage is not always huntwa.Openly admit I have a low IQ ( ;)). Back on topic let's get down to raffle numbers. They give an average joe a better than average chance to draw when compared to the general draw.
No question.
Where should his concern lie? His accusation on your IQ or that raffle odds are better than draw odds?
Post by: trophyhunt on June 30, 2019, 06:58:41 PM
Post by: Tbar on June 30, 2019, 07:36:45 PM
Tbar, as a tribal member, why do you even care about the raffles?I care about many things that aren't exclusive to tribal/ non tribal. I also realize that my voice and impact has minimal effect on wildlife management and truly care that the hunting tradition and culture carries on regardless of which side you are on. Therefore I care about deviations from the model. The further we distance ourselves from that the easier it'll be to end or severely limit hunting in this state, which we negatively impact all consumptive users.
Post by: trophyhunt on June 30, 2019, 07:41:26 PM
ok, I can respect that. ThanksTbar, as a tribal member, why do you even care about the raffles?I care about many things that aren't exclusive to tribal/ non tribal. I also realize that my voice and impact has minimal effect on wildlife management and truly care that the hunting tradition and culture carries on regardless of which side you are on. Therefore I care about deviations from the model. The further we distance ourselves from that the easier it'll be to end or severely limit hunting in this state, which we negatively impact all consumptive users.
Post by: idaho guy on June 30, 2019, 08:16:31 PM
You will be apologetic for this exchange. I hope you stand behind your words as they are memorialized. This is by no means a threat just know our paths will certainly cross. The stage is not always huntwa.Openly admit I have a low IQ ( ;)). Back on topic let's get down to raffle numbers. They give an average joe a better than average chance to draw when compared to the general draw.
No question.
Where should his concern lie? His accusation on your IQ or that raffle odds are better than draw odds?
:yeah: I don’t get it? Apologize for the Statement of fact that odds are better?
Post by: jackelope on June 30, 2019, 09:16:12 PM
You will be apologetic for this exchange. I hope you stand behind your words as they are memorialized. This is by no means a threat just know our paths will certainly cross. The stage is not always huntwa.Openly admit I have a low IQ ( ;)). Back on topic let's get down to raffle numbers. They give an average joe a better than average chance to draw when compared to the general draw.
No question.
Where should his concern lie? His accusation on your IQ or that raffle odds are better than draw odds?
:yeah: I don’t get it? Apologize for the Statement of fact that odds are better?
Maybe the part about the man’s IQ?
Post by: idaho guy on June 30, 2019, 09:31:35 PM
You will be apologetic for this exchange. I hope you stand behind your words as they are memorialized. This is by no means a threat just know our paths will certainly cross. The stage is not always huntwa.Openly admit I have a low IQ ( ;)). Back on topic let's get down to raffle numbers. They give an average joe a better than average chance to draw when compared to the general draw.
No question.
Where should his concern lie? His accusation on your IQ or that raffle odds are better than draw odds?
:yeah: I don’t get it? Apologize for the Statement of fact that odds are better?
Maybe the part about the man’s IQ?
Ok that makes sense I might be s little low on the IQ tonight :chuckle:
Post by: Bushcraft on June 30, 2019, 09:40:25 PM
You will be apologetic for this exchange. I hope you stand behind your words as they are memorialized. This is by no means a threat just know our paths will certainly cross. The stage is not always huntwa.Openly admit I have a low IQ ( ;)). Back on topic let's get down to raffle numbers. They give an average joe a better than average chance to draw when compared to the general draw.
No question.
Tbar,
I'm quick to apologize when it's warranted.
I spelled the facts of the matter out for you. Instead of coming up with a solid rebuttal you evidently thought it was easier to pick at a goat raffle scab that I've long since forgotten about. Seriously, it's water under the bridge dude.
Anyway, if you want to publicly admit to having a low IQ like you did AND make anonymous thinly veiled threats about our paths crossing (and you're not anonymous BTW), then that's on you. Memorialize away.
In the meantime, and until the math indicates otherwise, I agree with you that there is no question that the odds are generally better in the raffle than they are in the general draw (special hunter permit applications).
Tbar, as a tribal member, why do you even care about the raffles?I care about many things that aren't exclusive to tribal/ non tribal. I also realize that my voice and impact has minimal effect on wildlife management and truly care that the hunting tradition and culture carries on regardless of which side you are on. Therefore I care about deviations from the model. The further we distance ourselves from that the easier it'll be to end or severely limit hunting in this state, which we negatively impact all consumptive users.
I respect that point of view as well. Absolutely.
What I don't have a whole lot of time or respect for are anonymous online forum posters that make thinly veiled threats.
Tbar, My name is Allen Ernst. My cell phone is 206-229-2519. I'm happy take your call tomorrow so we can arrange mutually agreeable time and place to sit down face-to-face and have a frank conversation about what we might agree or disagree on. I doubt you'll be able to change my mind when it comes to the need to dramatically improve the management of, and methods of funding for, wildlife conservation/management in this state and beyond, but I'm open to hearing smart ideas that can be put to work.
Post by: Tbar on June 30, 2019, 09:51:54 PM
You know our paths will cross (again). You have alienated an ally, just a fact. No need to call or sit down. You do your best to represent your constituents and I will do likewise regardless of the stage.You will be apologetic for this exchange. I hope you stand behind your words as they are memorialized. This is by no means a threat just know our paths will certainly cross. The stage is not always huntwa.Openly admit I have a low IQ ( ;)). Back on topic let's get down to raffle numbers. They give an average joe a better than average chance to draw when compared to the general draw.
No question.
Tbar,
I'm quick to apologize when it's warranted.
I spelled the facts of the matter out for you. Instead of coming up with a solid rebuttal you evidently thought it was easier to pick at a goat raffle scab that I've long since forgotten about. Seriously, it's water under the bridge dude.
Anyway, if you want to publicly admit to having a low IQ like you did AND make anonymous thinly veiled threats about our paths crossing (and you're not anonymous BTW), then that's on you. Memorialize away.
In the meantime, and until the math indicates otherwise, I agree with you that there is no question that the odds are generally better in the raffle than they are in the general draw (special hunter permit applications).Tbar, as a tribal member, why do you even care about the raffles?I care about many things that aren't exclusive to tribal/ non tribal. I also realize that my voice and impact has minimal effect on wildlife management and truly care that the hunting tradition and culture carries on regardless of which side you are on. Therefore I care about deviations from the model. The further we distance ourselves from that the easier it'll be to end or severely limit hunting in this state, which we negatively impact all consumptive users.
I respect that point of view as well. Absolutely.
What I don't have a whole lot of time or respect for are anonymous online forum posters that make thinly veiled threats.
Tbar, My name is Allen Ernst. My cell phone is 206-229-2519. I'm happy take your call tomorrow so we can arrange mutually agreeable time and place to sit down face-to-face and have a frank conversation about what we might agree or disagree on. I doubt you'll be able to change my mind when it comes to the need to dramatically improve the management of, and methods of funding for, wildlife conservation/management in this state and beyond, but I'm open to hearing smart ideas that can be put to work.
Post by: Bushcraft on June 30, 2019, 10:10:31 PM
You know our paths will cross (again). You have alienated an ally, just a fact. No need to call or sit down. You do your best to represent your constituents and I will do likewise regardless of the stage.You will be apologetic for this exchange. I hope you stand behind your words as they are memorialized. This is by no means a threat just know our paths will certainly cross. The stage is not always huntwa.Openly admit I have a low IQ ( ;)). Back on topic let's get down to raffle numbers. They give an average joe a better than average chance to draw when compared to the general draw.
No question.
Tbar,
I'm quick to apologize when it's warranted.
I spelled the facts of the matter out for you. Instead of coming up with a solid rebuttal you evidently thought it was easier to pick at a goat raffle scab that I've long since forgotten about. Seriously, it's water under the bridge dude.
Anyway, if you want to publicly admit to having a low IQ like you did AND make anonymous thinly veiled threats about our paths crossing (and you're not anonymous BTW), then that's on you. Memorialize away.
In the meantime, and until the math indicates otherwise, I agree with you that there is no question that the odds are generally better in the raffle than they are in the general draw (special hunter permit applications).Tbar, as a tribal member, why do you even care about the raffles?I care about many things that aren't exclusive to tribal/ non tribal. I also realize that my voice and impact has minimal effect on wildlife management and truly care that the hunting tradition and culture carries on regardless of which side you are on. Therefore I care about deviations from the model. The further we distance ourselves from that the easier it'll be to end or severely limit hunting in this state, which we negatively impact all consumptive users.
I respect that point of view as well. Absolutely.
What I don't have a whole lot of time or respect for are anonymous online forum posters that make thinly veiled threats.
Tbar, My name is Allen Ernst. My cell phone is 206-229-2519. I'm happy take your call tomorrow so we can arrange mutually agreeable time and place to sit down face-to-face and have a frank conversation about what we might agree or disagree on. I doubt you'll be able to change my mind when it comes to the need to dramatically improve the management of, and methods of funding for, wildlife conservation/management in this state and beyond, but I'm open to hearing smart ideas that can be put to work.
Carry on then.
Just a perspective to reflect upon...The path forward is easier when you're not carrying a log-sized chip on your shoulder.
Post by: Pegasus on July 01, 2019, 06:33:32 AM
Post by: jackelope on July 01, 2019, 07:30:50 AM
I think once a whale or two has made a major buy of tickets the WDFW slows the reports to avoid discouraging other buyers. Its all about the money.
Lots of raffles where no whale is present this year it seems.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 01, 2019, 07:44:57 AM
From the numbers I have been seeing on the updates there are only three or four categories with a bunch of action depending on how you look at the numbers.
With that said I believe you are going to see a huge jump in at least one category this week.
I bought some tickets last week and this week. The raffle tickets run consecutively. You buy mule deer tickets and get number 120,421 and if you buy an elk ticket you next you get 120,422. If someone buys a moose ticket after you they get 120,423. If you buy a deer ticket 4 days later you could get 122,003 if that many other raffle tickets have been sold across all categories.
The difference in raffle ticket numbers this week was a jump of 3,000 from the ticket I bought 9 days ago. Not sure what category or categories took a jump but someone bought a bunch of tickets in one or two categories is my guess. I highly doubt those 3,000 tickets were evenly spread over the 13 categories.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 01, 2019, 08:08:40 AM
Category Purchasers Tickets
BT deer 222 1094
West elk 358 1977
Mule deer 509 2516
WT deer 214 1425
East elk 551 6365
Goat 310 4482
Moose 842 3676
NC combo 196 7717
NE combo 296 901
Sheep 344 6734
SC combo 268 4398
SE combo 148 790
3 Deer 201 1812
Post by: Ridgerunner on July 01, 2019, 08:12:42 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on July 01, 2019, 08:23:32 AM
Post by: rackattack on July 01, 2019, 08:24:37 AM
Post by: WAcoueshunter on July 01, 2019, 08:34:50 AM
:yeah: Seems some categories saw a good increase.
Makes sense, people wait to get their draw results before they jump into the raffle.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 01, 2019, 08:47:36 AM
:yeah: Seems some categories saw a good increase.Yes but keep in mind those numbers show the jump in the last two weeks. Numbers seemed to go up more but if you factor in that it is double the time of the last updates it's not as big of a jump.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 01, 2019, 09:54:42 AM
:yeah::yeah: Seems some categories saw a good increase.
Makes sense, people wait to get their draw results before they jump into the raffle.
And some wait to see what kind of racks are coming in. See a giant in velvet, load up on raffle tickets.
Post by: mburrows on July 01, 2019, 10:07:30 AM
I didnt buy WA tags this year because its so spendy for non-residents so am I even eligible to buy raffle tickets?
Post by: Bushcraft on July 01, 2019, 10:19:13 AM
I know that if you draw a raffle tag, you have buy an additional license. Does this imply that in order to buy raffle permits you must have a valid license?
I didnt buy WA tags this year because its so spendy for non-residents so am I even eligible to buy raffle tickets?
Yes, you are eligible to buy a raffle ticket as a non-resident. I don't think you have to have bought a license beforehand, but I'm not 100% certain about that part. Regardless, you have to make the raffle ticket purchase in person at a WDFW kiosk. They are not sold online or over the phone.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 01, 2019, 10:28:31 AM
I know that if you draw a raffle tag, you have buy an additional license. Does this imply that in order to buy raffle permits you must have a valid license?You have to be eligible to buy a license, I believe that is just a hunting license. There is no cost for the tag that you get as far as I know.
I didnt buy WA tags this year because its so spendy for non-residents so am I even eligible to buy raffle tickets?
Raffle permit hunts
Proceeds from the sale of single-species raffle tickets will be used for the management and benefit of that species. Proceeds from the sale of multiple species raffle tickets will be used for general game management.
There is no limit on the number of tickets a person may purchase. Residents and non-residents are eligible to purchase tickets. Refunds are not available on raffle ticket purchases. The “Once in a Lifetime Harvest" restriction is waived for auction and raffle hunts. The winner of the deer and elk raffles may purchase an additional deer or elk license/tag for the general hunting season if they choose. If selected, any legal weapon may be used during the hunt.
One winner and two alternates will be drawn for each hunt. Each winner must be eligible to purchase a hunting license and will be issued the appropriate license and tag at no cost.
The drawing is done by computer and the winning ticket holder will be notified via phone and mail by mid-August. If you are selected for a multi-species raffle, a decision must be made as to which species you would like to hunt before your hunting license and tags will be issued by the department.
The first part in bold is saying if you win a deer or elk raffle you can still buy a regular deer or elk license if you want. If you only want to harvest one animal under the raffle that you win that is at no cost according the second part in bold.
That's just the way I read it. I am not a lawyer.
Post by: mburrows on July 01, 2019, 10:44:09 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on July 01, 2019, 12:07:31 PM
Side note there is a rule that you can only harvest two elk in this state in a year. So if you have a general elk tag you can harvest on that tag and one more. Second elk damage area, auction, raffle or incentive tags can't all be used. Any combination of two can be used, after you fill two tags you are done. Not sure why it is only on elk but that is what the rule is. Deer I understand not being limited because one of the raffles is the three deer where you can harvest all three species just on one raffle win. If you bought all of the auction deer tags and were really lucky in the raffles you could get a ton of deer in one year.
Post by: Pegasus on July 01, 2019, 04:04:57 PM
I think once a whale or two has made a major buy of tickets the WDFW slows the reports to avoid discouraging other buyers. Its all about the money.
Lots of raffles where no whale is present this year it seems.
North Central Washington had a big jump early on and also had a big buyer last year. Is there a huge record book sheep or two running around in that area?
Post by: Bushcraft on July 01, 2019, 04:30:41 PM
I think once a whale or two has made a major buy of tickets the WDFW slows the reports to avoid discouraging other buyers. Its all about the money.
Lots of raffles where no whale is present this year it seems.
North Central Washington had a big jump early on and also had a big buyer last year. Is there a huge record book sheep or two running around in that area?
Maybe the guy just likes to hunt close to home. ;)
Post by: Rainier10 on July 01, 2019, 04:52:52 PM
:yeah:I think once a whale or two has made a major buy of tickets the WDFW slows the reports to avoid discouraging other buyers. Its all about the money.
Lots of raffles where no whale is present this year it seems.
North Central Washington had a big jump early on and also had a big buyer last year. Is there a huge record book sheep or two running around in that area?
Maybe the guy just likes to hunt close to home. ;)
You can hunt sheep in the Butte. You can hunt mule deer in the Chelan units with a rifle in December. You can hunt whitetail during the rut with a rifle.
Those are three once in a lifetime things with the current draw system. Most would be happy with one of those. All three in one year would be epic.
Post by: Bushcraft on July 01, 2019, 05:34:11 PM
Post by: Pegasus on July 01, 2019, 06:00:59 PM
:yeah:I think once a whale or two has made a major buy of tickets the WDFW slows the reports to avoid discouraging other buyers. Its all about the money.
Lots of raffles where no whale is present this year it seems.
North Central Washington had a big jump early on and also had a big buyer last year. Is there a huge record book sheep or two running around in that area?
Maybe the guy just likes to hunt close to home. ;)
You can hunt sheep in the Butte. You can hunt mule deer in the Chelan units with a rifle in December. You can hunt whitetail during the rut with a rifle.
Those are three once in a lifetime things with the current draw system. Most would be happy with one of those. All three in one year would be epic.
Well...I guess I better buy some more tickets then...
Post by: Pegasus on July 01, 2019, 06:09:11 PM
I think once a whale or two has made a major buy of tickets the WDFW slows the reports to avoid discouraging other buyers. Its all about the money.
I knew if I posted that that they would finally after two plus weeks update the numbers. See how the system works? If you don't think this site is constantly monitored by WDFW you are as dumb as AOC.
Post by: Bushcraft on July 01, 2019, 06:23:50 PM
I think once a whale or two has made a major buy of tickets the WDFW slows the reports to avoid discouraging other buyers. Its all about the money.
I knew if I posted that that they would finally after two plus weeks update the numbers. See how the system works? If you don't think this site is constantly monitored by WDFW you are as dumb as AOC.
Oh...they absolutely monitor this forum and others. Oftentimes through second-hand tattletales.
But, their ability to update the numbers in a timely manner has nothing to do with them wanting to make more money. It's literally a few key strokes and mouse clicks. Maybe five minutes of work that last time I called in.
Remember, the rank and file Olympia-based employees have absolutely nothing to gain (or lose) by the raffle bringing in a few thousand dollars more. It's a rounding error in their operating budget. It's just laziness and/or incompetency born of knowing your government job is safe, regardless of how much you actually work. Then too, and more aggravating, some of them no doubt reek of envy and jealousy and savor sticking it to people who have a higher disposable income than they do.
Post by: full choke on July 01, 2019, 06:37:21 PM
I think once a whale or two has made a major buy of tickets the WDFW slows the reports to avoid discouraging other buyers. Its all about the money.
I knew if I posted that that they would finally after two plus weeks update the numbers. See how the system works? If you don't think this site is constantly monitored by WDFW you are as dumb as AOC.
Oh...they absolutely monitor this forum and others. Oftentimes through second-hand tattletales.
But, their ability to update the numbers in a timely manner has nothing to do with them wanting to make more money. It's literally a few key strokes and mouse clicks. Maybe five minutes of work that last time I called in.
Remember, the rank and file Olympia-based employees have absolutely nothing to gain (or lose) by the raffle bringing in a few thousand dollars more. It's a rounding error in their operating budget. It's just laziness and/or incompetency born of knowing your government job is safe, regardless of how much you actually work. Then too, and more aggravating, some of them no doubt reek of envy and jealousy and savor sticking it to people who have a higher disposable income than they do.
?
Really?
Post by: Rainier10 on July 01, 2019, 06:41:40 PM
Put out whatever fire is in front of them as they come up.
Post by: Pegasus on July 01, 2019, 07:26:43 PM
I think once a whale or two has made a major buy of tickets the WDFW slows the reports to avoid discouraging other buyers. Its all about the money.
I knew if I posted that that they would finally after two plus weeks update the numbers. See how the system works? If you don't think this site is constantly monitored by WDFW you are as dumb as AOC.
Oh...they absolutely monitor this forum and others. Oftentimes through second-hand tattletales.
But, their ability to update the numbers in a timely manner has nothing to do with them wanting to make more money. It's literally a few key strokes and mouse clicks. Maybe five minutes of work that last time I called in.
Remember, the rank and file Olympia-based employees have absolutely nothing to gain (or lose) by the raffle bringing in a few thousand dollars more. It's a rounding error in their operating budget. It's just laziness and/or incompetency born of knowing your government job is safe, regardless of how much you actually work. Then too, and more aggravating, some of them no doubt reek of envy and jealousy and savor sticking it to people who have a higher disposable income than they do.
Think about it...do you want to buy a raffle ticket where someone else has purchased 90 percent of the tickets and substantially increased the amount of tickets and lowered your drawing odds tremendously? The almighty dollar always rules and is always behind what you see from government run entities that exist on those dollars. I seriously doubt some clerk "forgot" to update the numbers in a timely manner especially when there are only two weeks to go and when they could update the numbers instantaneously like you say if they wanted. It's just not laziness and/or incompetency, its by design.
Post by: idahohuntr on July 01, 2019, 08:29:37 PM
Post by: Bushcraft on July 01, 2019, 08:31:00 PM
I think once a whale or two has made a major buy of tickets the WDFW slows the reports to avoid discouraging other buyers. Its all about the money.
I knew if I posted that that they would finally after two plus weeks update the numbers. See how the system works? If you don't think this site is constantly monitored by WDFW you are as dumb as AOC.
Oh...they absolutely monitor this forum and others. Oftentimes through second-hand tattletales.
But, their ability to update the numbers in a timely manner has nothing to do with them wanting to make more money. It's literally a few key strokes and mouse clicks. Maybe five minutes of work that last time I called in.
Remember, the rank and file Olympia-based employees have absolutely nothing to gain (or lose) by the raffle bringing in a few thousand dollars more. It's a rounding error in their operating budget. It's just laziness and/or incompetency born of knowing your government job is safe, regardless of how much you actually work. Then too, and more aggravating, some of them no doubt reek of envy and jealousy and savor sticking it to people who have a higher disposable income than they do.
Think about it...do you want to buy a raffle ticket where someone else has purchased 90 percent of the tickets and substantially increased the amount of tickets and lowered your drawing odds tremendously? The almighty dollar always rules and is always behind what you see from government run entities that exist on those dollars. I seriously doubt some clerk "forgot" to update the numbers in a timely manner especially when there are only two weeks to go and when they could update the numbers instantaneously like you say if they wanted. It's just not laziness and/or incompetency, its by design.
Oh trust me Pegasus, I've thought about it plenty. :chuckle:
It all depends on how much money that 90% represents. Take it to one extreme: If there is only one other ticket that has been purchased, anyone would lay down for 9 tickets to get 90%. On the other hand, if someone has laid down $20K on an $6 raffle ticket, then there's no way in hell anyone would write a check for $180K. Keep in mind, and this is critically important, that the maximum bet is strongly correlated to the cost of just doing the hunt somewhere else with a little premium thrown in for lots of scheduling flexibility and being able to do the hunt with your friends close to home.
Like nearly everyone else on planet Earth, I like having more money in my checking account than not. Accordingly, when I dabbled in the raffle a few years ago I didn't want to gamble any more money than necessary to get to owning twice as many raffle tickets as everyone else in the state combined. That was the target threshold I was okay with doing, given the historical purchasing data, while keeping in mind what the best goat hunt in North America would have otherwise costed me. So, going in I knew that for every dollar someone else put in, I needed to put in two dollars in order to keep up...but only up to the point.
I would not have put in the last $6K (of $16K) had I not known that some others had thrown in at the very last minute. Instead of being able to simply hit the refresh button on my browser for the updated information, I was driving down the road headed for a backcountry goat counting trip in the Goat Rocks and literally had a last minute telephone conversation with my internal WDFW contact on the other end of the line before that person left for the weekend (who BTW was also frustrated that Licensing wasn't automatically releasing/updating that information in an orderly manner). Had I not known the most up to date figures had bumped up considerably during the period of time that the numbers went unreported, I wouldn't have bought any more tickets from the nice lady working at the WDFW kiosk in Packwood's grocery store.
It's just that simple. And that would have been $6K less in revenue towards mountain goat conservation.
Post by: Bushcraft on July 01, 2019, 08:46:17 PM
If they were smart AND good stewards of the publics resources they would not update the numbers until after the draw is complete...or not at all.
Wrong, on both accounts. At least you're consistent.
We already went through the basic math relating to the need to update the numbers. "Whales" or "Mr. Bigs" aren't going to play if they don't know what the odds are. No odds, no whales...substantially less revenue. Not sure why you're having difficulty with the straightforward concept.
As to "not at all" posting the number of tickets purchased (that's how you wrote it), WDFW is a public agency and they work for us. Every bleeping dime and action is accountable and should be absolutely transparent, both on the inflows and outflows. To suggest otherwise is delving into big-government-knows-best-pinko-commie territory amigo.
Post by: Pegasus on July 01, 2019, 08:55:30 PM
So you admit that you were dealing on "inside information" that was not know to to the general public. So much for a "fair raffle". This calls for an investigation of the raffle that is engaged in illegal behavior. Thank you for your honesty. Will you testify in court as to what you have posted here?
Post by: Bushcraft on July 01, 2019, 09:11:14 PM
"I would not have put in the last $6K (of $16K) had I not known that some others had thrown in at the very last minute. Instead of being able to simply hit the refresh button on my browser for the updated information, I was driving down the road headed for a backcountry goat counting trip in the Goat Rocks and literally had a last minute telephone conversation with my internal WDFW contact on the other end of the line before that person left for the weekend (who BTW was also frustrated that Licensing wasn't automatically releasing/updating that information in an orderly manner). Had I not known the most up to date figures had bumped up considerably during the period of time that the numbers went unreported, I wouldn't have bought any more tickets from the nice lady working at the WDFW kiosk in Packwood's grocery store."
So you admit that you were dealing on "inside information" that was not know to to the general public. So much for a "fair raffle". This calls for an investigation of the raffle that is engaged in illegal behavior. Thank you for your honesty. Will you testify in court as to what you have posted here?
Wait...Good grief...Are you serious? Anyone can call in and ask for the updated numbers anytime WDFW is open. If that person is smart, they simply save the number of that person's extension.
Here's the number...click through the prompts until you get to the right person that can answer your question. 360-902-2200
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: Not selected on July 01, 2019, 09:16:37 PM
Post by: Bushcraft on July 01, 2019, 09:20:59 PM
Bushcraft. I lean towards your point of view but cut that name calling crap off! Makes a guy look pretty weak :twocents:
You're right. I immediately deleted/modified it since he could have just been joking. (But I don't think he was.)
I'll freely admit to have zero patience for people that lack critical thinking skills.
Post by: Pegasus on July 01, 2019, 09:24:55 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on July 01, 2019, 09:28:50 PM
Two lines of evidence that do not support your belief that WDFW generates more revenue by posting updated ticket sales:If they were smart AND good stewards of the publics resources they would not update the numbers until after the draw is complete...or not at all.
Wrong, on both accounts. At least you're consistent.
We already went through the basic math relating to the need to update the numbers. "Whales" or "Mr. Bigs" aren't going to play if they don't know what the odds are. No odds, no whales...substantially less revenue. Not sure why you're having difficulty with the straightforward concept.
As to "not at all" posting the number of tickets purchased (that's how you wrote it), WDFW is a public agency and they work for us. Every bleeping dime and action is accountable and should be absolutely transparent, both on the inflows and outflows. To suggest otherwise is delving into big-government-knows-best-pinko-commie territory amigo.
1. People whining their purchases have not been reflected on the ticket sales page quickly enough - a clear and obvious attempt of "whales" to discourage others from purchasing tickets.
2. Virtually no other Western State or private company (e.g., huntin fool) offers real time updates of raffle ticket sales.
Your suggestion that no "whales" will participate if they don't know the odds is interesting. Are you suggesting Wyoming, Idaho, Montana etc. don't have "whales" buying loads of raffle tickets? I unequivocally know that to be a false assertion.
Post by: ctwiggs1 on July 01, 2019, 09:35:31 PM
So - how many goat tickets ya buying this year?? 😂
Post by: Pegasus on July 01, 2019, 09:41:53 PM
Post by: Bushcraft on July 01, 2019, 09:58:46 PM
The WDFW has no place on the raffle info to call in and get current numbers. It is by design and to favor whales. Will you testify in court?
C'mon Bushcraft...step up and be a man. Testify and we can fix this crooked system. Capiche?
Sigh...
Have you ever called into WDFW's main line? For that matter, have you ever called ANY large entity's main number and been prompted to type in a number that most corresponds to your reason for you calling, and then been routed, and then routed, etc., until you got to someone that could help you? (think about calling your bank for example) If so, perhaps you noted that sometimes whoever answers the phone and helps you (or not) are just cubicle gophers in a massive outsourced call center and they don't have a dedicated extension (or claim they don't). Other times, they do...and if they are helpful and you might want to skip all the rigmarole and get the answer to future questions faster, you can write that down (or remember it) so you can request to be immediately routed to that person if you call in again. Sometimes there are more than one person.
Are you beginning to get the picture? If not, is there some other way I make this easier for you to understand?
Post by: Pegasus on July 01, 2019, 10:10:11 PM
The WDFW has no place on the raffle info to call in and get current numbers. It is by design and to favor whales. Will you testify in court?C'mon Bushcraft...step up and be a man. Testify and we can fix this crooked system. Capiche?
Sigh...
Have you ever called into WDFW's main line? For that matter, have you ever called ANY large entity's main number and been prompted to type in a number that most corresponds to your reason for you calling, and then been routed, and then routed, etc., until you got to someone that could help you? (think about calling your bank for example) If so, perhaps you noted that sometimes whoever answers the phone and helps you (or not) are just cubicle gophers in a massive outsourced call center and they don't have a dedicated extension (or claim they don't). Other times, they do...and if they are helpful and you might want to skip all the rigmarole and get the answer to future questions faster, you can write that down (or remember it) so you can request to be immediately routed to that person if you call in again. Sometimes there are more than one person.
Are you beginning to get the picture? If not, is there some other way I make this easier for you to understand?
Really? You said: " I was driving down the road headed for a backcountry goat counting trip in the Goat Rocks and literally had a last minute telephone conversation with my INTERNAL WDFW CONTACT on the other end of the line before that person left for the weekend (who BTW was also frustrated that Licensing wasn't automatically releasing/updating that information in an orderly manner). Had I not known the most up to date figures had bumped up considerably during the period of time that the numbers went unreported, I wouldn't have bought any more tickets from the nice lady working at the WDFW kiosk in Packwood's grocery store."
Stop with the deflection. WILL YOU TESTIFY to what you have posted here?
Post by: Pegasus on July 01, 2019, 10:17:44 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on July 01, 2019, 11:09:20 PM
Again if you need me to testify to that I have no problem. I still have the email exchange if needed. Not sure what me testifying will prove, maybe that the WDFW does want us to have the information. :dunno:
Post by: Bango skank on July 01, 2019, 11:18:58 PM
I will testify that I knew last weeks ticket sales. I sent an email to my internal contact at WDFW, wildthing@dfw.wa.gov and two hours later I got a reply with the numbers. It never entered my mind that it might be seen as scandalous to reach out to them and ask a question. I just figured I buy a license every year and that pays their salary they should answer a question if asked. I didn’t even have to fill out the standard form public request for information.
Again if you need me to testify to that I have no problem. I still have the email exchange if needed. Not sure what me testifying will prove, maybe that the WDFW does want us to have the information. :dunno:
Didnt you say that you would NOT have spent an additional 6k if you hadnt known the numbers? Meaning knowing updated numbers INCREASED ticket sales, which is the opposite of what everybody is crying about? sounds to me like knowing updated numbers increased funding for wildlife :dunno:
Post by: Pegasus on July 01, 2019, 11:19:49 PM
I will testify that I knew last weeks ticket sales. I sent an email to my internal contact at WDFW, wildthing@dfw.wa.gov and two hours later I got a reply with the numbers. It never entered my mind that it might be seen as scandalous to reach out to them and ask a question. I just figured I buy a license every year and that pays their salary they should answer a question if asked. I didn’t even have to fill out the standard form public request for information.
Again if you need me to testify to that I have no problem. I still have the email exchange if needed. Not sure what me testifying will prove, maybe that the WDFW does want us to have the information. :dunno:
Nice try. Where on the raffle site does the game dept reveal to the general public that you can obtain current numbers on the raffles by either emailing or calling? How many raffle participants are aware that they are doing this for the wealthy? Yes you are included in that category. I know...its relative but most hunters can't spent $16,000 bucks on a raffle for goats like some can at a whim with special "inside info" from certain people at the WDFW. Save your emails please.
Post by: Bango skank on July 01, 2019, 11:24:04 PM
I will testify that I knew last weeks ticket sales. I sent an email to my internal contact at WDFW, wildthing@dfw.wa.gov and two hours later I got a reply with the numbers. It never entered my mind that it might be seen as scandalous to reach out to them and ask a question. I just figured I buy a license every year and that pays their salary they should answer a question if asked. I didn’t even have to fill out the standard form public request for information.
Again if you need me to testify to that I have no problem. I still have the email exchange if needed. Not sure what me testifying will prove, maybe that the WDFW does want us to have the information. :dunno:
Nice try. Where on the raffle site does the game dept reveal to the general public that you can obtain current numbers on the raffles by either emailing or calling? How many raffle participants are aware that they are doing this for the wealthy? Yes you are included in that category. I know...its relative but most hunters can't spent $16,000 bucks on a raffle for goats like some can at a whim with special "inside info" from certain people at the WDFW. Save your emails please.
Life isnt fair dude. I cant afford to dump that kind of money either, hell theres lots of nice things id like but cant afford, but i dont begrudge those that can. Buy 5 tickets if thats all you can afford and hope for the best. its a raffle, youre entitled to nothing.
Post by: Bushcraft on July 01, 2019, 11:32:02 PM
Two lines of evidence that do not support your belief that WDFW generates more revenue by posting updated ticket sales:If they were smart AND good stewards of the publics resources they would not update the numbers until after the draw is complete...or not at all.
Wrong, on both accounts. At least you're consistent.
We already went through the basic math relating to the need to update the numbers. "Whales" or "Mr. Bigs" aren't going to play if they don't know what the odds are. No odds, no whales...substantially less revenue. Not sure why you're having difficulty with the straightforward concept.
As to "not at all" posting the number of tickets purchased (that's how you wrote it), WDFW is a public agency and they work for us. Every bleeping dime and action is accountable and should be absolutely transparent, both on the inflows and outflows. To suggest otherwise is delving into big-government-knows-best-pinko-commie territory amigo.
1. People whining their purchases have not been reflected on the ticket sales page quickly enough - a clear and obvious attempt of "whales" to discourage others from purchasing tickets.
2. Virtually no other Western State or private company (e.g., huntin fool) offers real time updates of raffle ticket sales.
Your suggestion that no "whales" will participate if they don't know the odds is interesting. Are you suggesting Wyoming, Idaho, Montana etc. don't have "whales" buying loads of raffle tickets? I unequivocally know that to be a false assertion.
Good grief. I'm seriously biting my tongue here.
You need to take a remedial Logic course idahohunter. Neither of your points are evidence or supportive of your opinion that not updating ticket sales would somehow generate more revenue for the department.
Let's paint this picture differently to try and help you to understand. Let's use the lottery. MegaMillions Powerball or whatever it's called.
So, take a moment and pause from desperately wanting to be right (or make me appear to be wrong, same difference :dunno: ) and reflect upon why the lotteries display the increasing value of a given lottery.
Why is it that the stores and machines that sell them advertise the updated amount you could win if you played?
It's been long since proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the larger the lottery pool, the more people will buy more lottery tickets. Limited transparency into potential payout, and odds of winning, dramatically diminishes participation.
When the lottery is a "paltry" $15 million, very few people bother playing. When it builds up to $800 million, LOTS of people play that otherwise wouldn't even remotely consider wasting a buck or two on a lottery ticket. Once that lottery gets up to hundreds of millions, playing at that level is a lark. As a student of human nature, I can tell you that it's a silly phenomenon because either amount would dramatically alter the lives of the winner. Accordingly, why don't people play all the time? Well, due to some oddities of human perception, they are more drawn to the prospects of a potentially larger payout even though they know the odds of winning either are approximately zero.
Now, let's shift gears to raffles for something with a fixed payout value. Fixed in the sense that there is an essentially known value of a given item and there is a ceiling on the value of the item. It's not like a lottery that just gets bigger if no one wins. When it comes to the type of raffles like the ones we are discussing, far fewer people with essentially zero chance of winning will still play but they'll only buy a relatively small number of tickets per person. The vast majority will only buy one. That's just the way these things go. That number would change dramatically if it cost $50,000,000 to go on a sheep hunt and the winning raffle ticket was transferable to a willing buyer or redeemable in cash. Understandably, far more people would be willing to take a chance and buy a ticket worth $50MM even if they weren't hunters. But, sheep hunts just don't come anywhere near that coast and there's only a few people - relatively speaking in a state of 7.5MM people, that want to hunt sheep anyway. In fact, it's relatively easy to figure out since all one has to do is look up the number of people that put in for special permit applications, or even raffle tags for that matter. It's a comparatively small percentage of the population. Again, the vast majority of whom, if historical data is any indication will just buy one ticket, even though they could theoretically buy an unlimited quantity.
But, if there is some perceived chance at increasing their odds of winning a fixed value raffle, some of the people will carefully weigh the "sure thing" cost of just buying the hunt vs. the risk of a gambling loss. Some will just forego playing, and save up and pay for the hunt outright. Others will have the financial wherewithal to lay down a pile of cash to gain better odds of winning, but they'll only do so up to a point that makes sense to them on a single throw or over a year over year basis. For example, if someone buys 33% percent of the expected number of raffle tickets sold every year, odds are that they'll get it once every three years (with no guarantee of course). They'll likely end up paying a third of the cost, two thirds of the cost or the full cost for a guided hunt. If it's a third...great. If it's two-thirds...nice discount. Full boat...they wanted to go sheep hunting anyway. If their luck totally sucked, they disposable income at that level is such that they can scrape up something and just go. Bottome line is they are just playing the odds with disposable income that they would nototherwise spend at all if they didn't know the odds. The lower the understanding of what the odds are, the lower the interest level in playing. The lower the interest level in playing, the lower amount of disposable income they are going to play with. The lower amount they play with, the lower the revenue generated by the raffle.
It's just that simple.
Post by: Pegasus on July 01, 2019, 11:35:30 PM
I will testify that I knew last weeks ticket sales. I sent an email to my internal contact at WDFW, wildthing@dfw.wa.gov and two hours later I got a reply with the numbers. It never entered my mind that it might be seen as scandalous to reach out to them and ask a question. I just figured I buy a license every year and that pays their salary they should answer a question if asked. I didn’t even have to fill out the standard form public request for information.
Again if you need me to testify to that I have no problem. I still have the email exchange if needed. Not sure what me testifying will prove, maybe that the WDFW does want us to have the information. :dunno:
Nice try. Where on the raffle site does the game dept reveal to the general public that you can obtain current numbers on the raffles by either emailing or calling? How many raffle participants are aware that they are doing this for the wealthy? Yes you are included in that category. I know...its relative but most hunters can't spent $16,000 bucks on a raffle for goats like some can at a whim with special "inside info" from certain people at the WDFW. Save your emails please.
Life isnt fair dude. I cant afford to dump that kind of money either, hell theres lots of nice things id like but cant afford, but i dont begrudge those that can. Buy 5 tickets if thats all you can afford and hope for the best. its a raffle, youre entitled to nothing.
Thanks for the advice. I don't begrudge anyone for buying lots of tickets in the raffle but I want a fair raffle where everyone has the same info at the same time. When you withhold the info from everyone except for a select few, especially the for big buyers, you are screwing the rest of the hunter population.
Life may not be fair but raffles under the law have to be fair for ALL.
Post by: Pegasus on July 01, 2019, 11:40:39 PM
Two lines of evidence that do not support your belief that WDFW generates more revenue by posting updated ticket sales:If they were smart AND good stewards of the publics resources they would not update the numbers until after the draw is complete...or not at all.
Wrong, on both accounts. At least you're consistent.
We already went through the basic math relating to the need to update the numbers. "Whales" or "Mr. Bigs" aren't going to play if they don't know what the odds are. No odds, no whales...substantially less revenue. Not sure why you're having difficulty with the straightforward concept.
As to "not at all" posting the number of tickets purchased (that's how you wrote it), WDFW is a public agency and they work for us. Every bleeping dime and action is accountable and should be absolutely transparent, both on the inflows and outflows. To suggest otherwise is delving into big-government-knows-best-pinko-commie territory amigo.
1. People whining their purchases have not been reflected on the ticket sales page quickly enough - a clear and obvious attempt of "whales" to discourage others from purchasing tickets.
2. Virtually no other Western State or private company (e.g., huntin fool) offers real time updates of raffle ticket sales.
Your suggestion that no "whales" will participate if they don't know the odds is interesting. Are you suggesting Wyoming, Idaho, Montana etc. don't have "whales" buying loads of raffle tickets? I unequivocally know that to be a false assertion.
Good grief. I'm seriously biting my tongue here.
You need to take a remedial Logic course idahohunter. Neither of your points are evidence or supportive of your opinion that not updating ticket sales would somehow generate more revenue for the department.
Let's paint this picture differently to try and help you to understand. Let's use the lottery. MegaMillions Powerball or whatever it's called.
So, take a moment and pause from desperately wanting to be right (or make me appear to be wrong, same difference :dunno: ) and reflect upon why the lotteries display the increasing value of a given lottery.
Why is it that the stores and machines that sell them advertise the updated amount you could win if you played?
It's been long since proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the larger the lottery pool, the more people will buy more lottery tickets. Limited transparency into potential payout, and odds of winning, dramatically diminishes participation.
When the lottery is a "paltry" $15 million, very few people bother playing. When it builds up to $800 million, LOTS of people play that otherwise wouldn't even remotely consider wasting a buck or two on a lottery ticket. Once that lottery gets up to hundreds of millions, playing at that level is a lark. As a student of human nature, I can tell you that it's a silly phenomenon because either amount would dramatically alter the lives of the winner. Accordingly, why don't people play all the time? Well, due to some oddities of human perception, they are more drawn to the prospects of a potentially larger payout even though they know the odds of winning either are approximately zero.
Now, let's shift gears to raffles for something with a fixed payout value. Fixed in the sense that there is an essentially known value of a given item and there is a ceiling on the value of the item. It's not like a lottery that just gets bigger if no one wins. When it comes to the type of raffles like the ones we are discussing, far fewer people with essentially zero chance of winning will still play but they'll only buy a relatively small number of tickets per person. The vast majority will only buy one. That's just the way these things go. That number would change dramatically if it cost $50,000,000 to go on a sheep hunt and the winning raffle ticket was transferable to a willing buyer or redeemable in cash. Understandably, far more people would be willing to take a chance and buy a ticket worth $50MM even if they weren't hunters. But, sheep hunts just don't come anywhere near that coast and there's only a few people - relatively speaking in a state of 7.5MM people, that want to hunt sheep anyway. In fact, it's relatively easy to figure out since all one has to do is look up the number of people that put in for special permit applications, or even raffle tags for that matter. It's a comparatively small percentage of the population. Again, the vast majority of whom, if historical data is any indication will just buy one ticket, even though they could theoretically buy an unlimited quantity.
But, if there is some perceived chance at increasing their odds of winning a fixed value raffle, some of the people will carefully weigh the "sure thing" cost of just buying the hunt vs. the risk of a gambling loss. Some will just forego playing, and save up and pay for the hunt outright. Others will have the financial wherewithal to lay down a pile of cash to gain better odds of winning, but they'll only do so up to a point that makes sense to them on a single throw or over a year over year basis. For example, if someone buys 33% percent of the expected number of raffle tickets sold every year, odds are that they'll get it once every three years (with no guarantee of course). They'll likely end up paying a third of the cost, two thirds of the cost or the full cost for a guided hunt. If it's a third...great. If it's two-thirds...nice discount. Full boat...they wanted to go sheep hunting anyway. If their luck totally sucked, they disposable income at that level is such that they can scrape up something and just go. Bottome line is they are just playing the odds with disposable income that they would nototherwise spend at all if they didn't know the odds. The lower the understanding of what the odds are, the lower the interest level in playing. The lower the interest level in playing, the lower amount of disposable income they are going to play with. The lower amount they play with, the lower the revenue generated by the raffle.
It's just that simple.
Will you testify in a court of law as to the veracity of all of your posts about the raffle you have posted previously? "It is just that simple"...YES or NO?
Post by: Bushcraft on July 01, 2019, 11:45:53 PM
The WDFW has no place on the raffle info to call in and get current numbers. It is by design and to favor whales. Will you testify in court?C'mon Bushcraft...step up and be a man. Testify and we can fix this crooked system. Capiche?
Sigh...
Have you ever called into WDFW's main line? For that matter, have you ever called ANY large entity's main number and been prompted to type in a number that most corresponds to your reason for you calling, and then been routed, and then routed, etc., until you got to someone that could help you? (think about calling your bank for example) If so, perhaps you noted that sometimes whoever answers the phone and helps you (or not) are just cubicle gophers in a massive outsourced call center and they don't have a dedicated extension (or claim they don't). Other times, they do...and if they are helpful and you might want to skip all the rigmarole and get the answer to future questions faster, you can write that down (or remember it) so you can request to be immediately routed to that person if you call in again. Sometimes there are more than one person.
Are you beginning to get the picture? If not, is there some other way I make this easier for you to understand?
Really? You said: " I was driving down the road headed for a backcountry goat counting trip in the Goat Rocks and literally had a last minute telephone conversation with my INTERNAL WDFW CONTACT on the other end of the line before that person left for the weekend (who BTW was also frustrated that Licensing wasn't automatically releasing/updating that information in an orderly manner). Had I not known the most up to date figures had bumped up considerably during the period of time that the numbers went unreported, I wouldn't have bought any more tickets from the nice lady working at the WDFW kiosk in Packwood's grocery store."
Stop with the deflection. WILL YOU TESTIFY to what you have posted here?
Alright, you've earned a bit of name calling. Pegasus, you're quite possibly dumber than a box of rocks.
What part of anyone can call in and anyone can remember or write down the number of the extension of the person that can pull up that information do you not understand?
I was anyone. I called in. I wrote down the number of the extension of the person that knew how to look up that information. That person was my "internal contact". :yike: I am not the only anyone that has done it or can do it. Got it yet? Is it getting through your thick skull? :bash: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
For chrissakes...call the main number tomorrow and try it for yourself.
Here's what will happen. If they haven't already updated the information online, and direct you to where you can find that on their website, they'll hunt down the information and give it to you. If enough people call in wondering how many tickets are sold, they'll pressure others to post the information so they don't have to spend their day answering the same question.
EDIT TO ADD:
The only thing that's remotely unfair is that we taxpayers have lazy, incompetent people (not)working for us in our state and federal agencies that are almost impossible to fire. They could, and should, have the numbers of raffle tickets sold updated instantly online. Which was my initial gripe and warning a few years ago.
Post by: Pegasus on July 01, 2019, 11:58:49 PM
Post by: Pegasus on July 02, 2019, 12:18:27 AM
I agree that the numbers should be posted almost instantaneously but let us not blame people for not posting the numbers as incompetent. I am sure the the raffle numbers are updated and viewed daily by the higher-ups at the WDFW. Not releasing the numbers for two weeks after the permit draws notifications is not an accident IMHO.
If you call a company and some clerk gives you info that allows you to make an investment based on non-disclosed info you get to go to jail. Seems like someone got sentenced to 4 years today for selling on non-public info. Giving out non-public info to a select few on a raffle that increases their odds does not sound any different. Wide dissemination is the key...not buddies at the WDFW for a few.
Post by: Bushcraft on July 02, 2019, 12:55:35 AM
How many people here have complained that the WDFW is NOT updating the numbers in a timely manner? Many. Did the raffle info pages tell them to call a number or give an email? Nope. Did anyone here post that they had the numbers before the update? Nope. You have posted that you participated knowingly in getting info from an "inside" source before you placed your bet that was NOT disclosed to everyone. How is that fair for the general public?I guarantee you the WDFW by morning if not already will be notifying employees not to release info to a select group of people such as yourself about the numbers that are not posted for all to see. Why? Because it exposes the raffles for being crooked and rigged.
"The only thing that's remotely unfair is that we taxpayers have lazy, incompetent people (not)working for us in our state and federal agencies that are almost impossible to fire. They could, and should, have the numbers of raffle tickets sold updated instantly online. Which was my initial gripe and warning a few years ago."
I agree that the numbers should be posted almost instantaneously but let us not blame people for not posting the numbers as incompetent. I am sure the the raffle numbers are updated and viewed daily by the higher-ups at the WDFW. Not releasing the numbers for two weeks after the permit draws notifications is not an accident IMHO.
If you call a company and some clerk gives you info that allows you to make an investment based on non-disclosed info you get to go to jail. Seems like someone got sentenced to 4 years today for selling on non-public info. Giving out non-public info to a select few on a raffle that increases their odds does not sound any different. Wide dissemination is the key...not buddies at the WDFW for a few.
:rolleyes:
Wanna buy some rocks to add to your box?
Post by: Rainier10 on July 02, 2019, 07:12:08 AM
you are confusing me with bushcraft. I was just saying after seeing all the debate last week about numbers not being posted I emailed and asked why. They said that they would be updated and gave me the numbers of tickets sold to three of the categories I was interested in.I will testify that I knew last weeks ticket sales. I sent an email to my internal contact at WDFW, wildthing@dfw.wa.gov and two hours later I got a reply with the numbers. It never entered my mind that it might be seen as scandalous to reach out to them and ask a question. I just figured I buy a license every year and that pays their salary they should answer a question if asked. I didn’t even have to fill out the standard form public request for information.
Again if you need me to testify to that I have no problem. I still have the email exchange if needed. Not sure what me testifying will prove, maybe that the WDFW does want us to have the information. :dunno:
Didnt you say that you would NOT have spent an additional 6k if you hadnt known the numbers? Meaning knowing updated numbers INCREASED ticket sales, which is the opposite of what everybody is crying about? sounds to me like knowing updated numbers increased funding for wildlife :dunno:
Pretty sure bushcraft and myself aren’t the only ones on here to contact WDFW and ask why results haven’t been updated. I think you may have at some point as well.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 02, 2019, 07:41:58 AM
I’ve asked about hunter density and harvest numbers for specific GMU’s so I could lobby for certain seasons in those GMU’s. Is that an issue? Would it be better if WDFW kept all the information secret?
They are seriously about being as transparent and thorough at the same time.
I don’t know all the details about the raffles but I assume they are similar to the general draw I was a witness for. They check sales numbers to applications filled out online and not filled out, then they screen shot each report to show that every way you look at the numbers they add up so if anybody questions it they can show that it all jives.
I’m guessing that same thing happens with raffle sales to make sure all numbers add up then they update the site.
They have updated every week for the last 6 up until last Monday and then they updated this Monday.
Did anyone stop to think that maybe one of the people in the process was out sick, on vacation or working on something else that kept them from updating last week? They are human, they do get sick, take vacation or have other stuff come up.
This Monday results were posted just like they have been for the 6 weeks before last week. No need to have a grand jury investigate foul play.
Post by: Bushcraft on July 02, 2019, 07:56:28 AM
I’m not sure what the big deal is about WDFW giving out information that is asked for.
I’ve asked about hunter density and harvest numbers for specific GMU’s so I could lobby for certain seasons in those GMU’s. Is that an issue? Would it be better if WDFW kept all the information secret?
They are seriously about being as transparent and thorough at the same time.
I don’t know all the details about the raffles but I assume they are similar to the general draw I was a witness for. They check sales numbers to applications filled out online and not filled out, then they screen shot each report to show that every way you look at the numbers they add up so if anybody questions it they can show that it all jives.
I’m guessing that same thing happens with raffle sales to make sure all numbers add up then they update the site.
They have updated every week for the last 6 up until last Monday and then they updated this Monday.
Did anyone stop to think that maybe one of the people in the process was out sick, on vacation or working on something else that kept them from updating last week? They are human, they do get sick, take vacation or have other stuff come up.
This Monday results were posted just like they have been for the 6 weeks before last week. No need to have a grand jury investigate foul play.
:yeah: Exactly.
Post by: idahohuntr on July 02, 2019, 08:50:45 AM
That's a lot of rambling for a simple "explanation". :chuckle: There is a reason no other western state or private companies provide real time draw odds on their wildlife/hunt raffles. But even if I try to follow your "logic" trail do you really believe there are not big spenders in Wyoming, Idaho, Montana raffles...which is your direct assertion since those states do not provide real time odds. Perhaps the more clear example: why do you suppose a private company founded on the basis of providing draw odds to its members (huntin fool) NEVER provides the draw odds of their various raffle hunts? Hmmmm...a profit motivated private company doesn't share odds on their raffles and they've been doing them for decades...don't worry, business acumen, finance, law etc. are clearly not your strong suits. I'm sure you have other talents though. :tup:Two lines of evidence that do not support your belief that WDFW generates more revenue by posting updated ticket sales:If they were smart AND good stewards of the publics resources they would not update the numbers until after the draw is complete...or not at all.
Wrong, on both accounts. At least you're consistent.
We already went through the basic math relating to the need to update the numbers. "Whales" or "Mr. Bigs" aren't going to play if they don't know what the odds are. No odds, no whales...substantially less revenue. Not sure why you're having difficulty with the straightforward concept.
As to "not at all" posting the number of tickets purchased (that's how you wrote it), WDFW is a public agency and they work for us. Every bleeping dime and action is accountable and should be absolutely transparent, both on the inflows and outflows. To suggest otherwise is delving into big-government-knows-best-pinko-commie territory amigo.
1. People whining their purchases have not been reflected on the ticket sales page quickly enough - a clear and obvious attempt of "whales" to discourage others from purchasing tickets.
2. Virtually no other Western State or private company (e.g., huntin fool) offers real time updates of raffle ticket sales.
Your suggestion that no "whales" will participate if they don't know the odds is interesting. Are you suggesting Wyoming, Idaho, Montana etc. don't have "whales" buying loads of raffle tickets? I unequivocally know that to be a false assertion.
Good grief. I'm seriously biting my tongue here.
You need to take a remedial Logic course idahohunter. Neither of your points are evidence or supportive of your opinion that not updating ticket sales would somehow generate more revenue for the department.
Let's paint this picture differently to try and help you to understand. Let's use the lottery. MegaMillions Powerball or whatever it's called.
So, take a moment and pause from desperately wanting to be right (or make me appear to be wrong, same difference :dunno: ) and reflect upon why the lotteries display the increasing value of a given lottery.
Why is it that the stores and machines that sell them advertise the updated amount you could win if you played?
It's been long since proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the larger the lottery pool, the more people will buy more lottery tickets. Limited transparency into potential payout, and odds of winning, dramatically diminishes participation.
When the lottery is a "paltry" $15 million, very few people bother playing. When it builds up to $800 million, LOTS of people play that otherwise wouldn't even remotely consider wasting a buck or two on a lottery ticket. Once that lottery gets up to hundreds of millions, playing at that level is a lark. As a student of human nature, I can tell you that it's a silly phenomenon because either amount would dramatically alter the lives of the winner. Accordingly, why don't people play all the time? Well, due to some oddities of human perception, they are more drawn to the prospects of a potentially larger payout even though they know the odds of winning either are approximately zero.
Now, let's shift gears to raffles for something with a fixed payout value. Fixed in the sense that there is an essentially known value of a given item and there is a ceiling on the value of the item. It's not like a lottery that just gets bigger if no one wins. When it comes to the type of raffles like the ones we are discussing, far fewer people with essentially zero chance of winning will still play but they'll only buy a relatively small number of tickets per person. The vast majority will only buy one. That's just the way these things go. That number would change dramatically if it cost $50,000,000 to go on a sheep hunt and the winning raffle ticket was transferable to a willing buyer or redeemable in cash. Understandably, far more people would be willing to take a chance and buy a ticket worth $50MM even if they weren't hunters. But, sheep hunts just don't come anywhere near that coast and there's only a few people - relatively speaking in a state of 7.5MM people, that want to hunt sheep anyway. In fact, it's relatively easy to figure out since all one has to do is look up the number of people that put in for special permit applications, or even raffle tags for that matter. It's a comparatively small percentage of the population. Again, the vast majority of whom, if historical data is any indication will just buy one ticket, even though they could theoretically buy an unlimited quantity.
But, if there is some perceived chance at increasing their odds of winning a fixed value raffle, some of the people will carefully weigh the "sure thing" cost of just buying the hunt vs. the risk of a gambling loss. Some will just forego playing, and save up and pay for the hunt outright. Others will have the financial wherewithal to lay down a pile of cash to gain better odds of winning, but they'll only do so up to a point that makes sense to them on a single throw or over a year over year basis. For example, if someone buys 33% percent of the expected number of raffle tickets sold every year, odds are that they'll get it once every three years (with no guarantee of course). They'll likely end up paying a third of the cost, two thirds of the cost or the full cost for a guided hunt. If it's a third...great. If it's two-thirds...nice discount. Full boat...they wanted to go sheep hunting anyway. If their luck totally sucked, they disposable income at that level is such that they can scrape up something and just go. Bottome line is they are just playing the odds with disposable income that they would nototherwise spend at all if they didn't know the odds. The lower the understanding of what the odds are, the lower the interest level in playing. The lower the interest level in playing, the lower amount of disposable income they are going to play with. The lower amount they play with, the lower the revenue generated by the raffle.
It's just that simple.
Post by: Bushcraft on July 02, 2019, 09:40:09 AM
That's a lot of rambling for a simple "explanation". :chuckle: There is a reason no other western state or private companies provide real time draw odds on their wildlife/hunt raffles. But even if I try to follow your "logic" trail do you really believe there are not big spenders in Wyoming, Idaho, Montana raffles...which is your direct assertion since those states do not provide real time odds. Perhaps the more clear example: why do you suppose a private company founded on the basis of providing draw odds to its members (huntin fool) NEVER provides the draw odds of their various raffle hunts? Hmmmm...a profit motivated private company doesn't share odds on their raffles and they've been doing them for decades...don't worry, business acumen, finance, law etc. are clearly not your strong suits. I'm sure you have other talents though. :tup:
:rolleyes:
Good Lord...Somewhere a bag of hammers is missing a hammer.
Huntin Fool runs a SWEEPSTAKES not a RAFFLE.
There's a massive legal difference between the two. Do you not understand the difference there Mr. Legal Beagle???
There is no purchase necessary to win a sweepstakes. A purchase does not increase the chances of winning in a sweepstakes. Like any game of chance the odds of winning a sweepstakes depends on the total number of eligible entries received. Any yahoo can print up a pile of 3.5"x5" and mail 'em in for the cost of first class postage.
No one in his right mind is going to lay down a boatload to cash on a sweepstakes when an unknown quantity of participants can participate many times for free. Catch a clue dude!
They don't need to show the odds because everyone's odds in a sweepstakes, regardless of how many entries one purchases or submits, are practically/essentially...zero.
But by all means idahohunter, go ahead and buy a maximum number of of 30 Platinum, 30 Gold and 30 Silver entries per day from Huntin Fool if you think your odds of playing that game are better than our known-odds raffle. I'm quite certain they'd be happy to take your money.
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: idahohuntr on July 02, 2019, 10:10:44 AM
I think you should stick to pedaling frivolous lawsuits.
If posting odds was a money maker HF would do it...so would every other western state. End of discussion.
Post by: Mtnwalker on July 02, 2019, 10:35:12 AM
:chuckle:
I think you should stick to pedaling frivolous lawsuits.
If posting odds was a money maker HF would do it...so would every other western state. End of discussion.
Thank god.
Post by: jackelope on July 02, 2019, 10:54:14 AM
I will testify that I knew last weeks ticket sales. I sent an email to my internal contact at WDFW, wildthing@dfw.wa.gov and two hours later I got a reply with the numbers. It never entered my mind that it might be seen as scandalous to reach out to them and ask a question. I just figured I buy a license every year and that pays their salary they should answer a question if asked. I didn’t even have to fill out the standard form public request for information.
Again if you need me to testify to that I have no problem. I still have the email exchange if needed. Not sure what me testifying will prove, maybe that the WDFW does want us to have the information. :dunno:
Nice try. Where on the raffle site does the game dept reveal to the general public that you can obtain current numbers on the raffles by either emailing or calling? How many raffle participants are aware that they are doing this for the wealthy? Yes you are included in that category. I know...its relative but most hunters can't spent $16,000 bucks on a raffle for goats like some can at a whim with special "inside info" from certain people at the WDFW. Save your emails please.
Nowhere on WDFW's website have I ever seen it mentioned to do lots of things that are doable. I email biologists every year for info on areas I plan to hunt. I've never seen anywhere where it says to do that. They do make it clear that the primary goal of the program is to generate revenue, not to be fair to the average joe(me) or anything else for that matter. That is here:
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/special-hunts/auction-raffle-faq
Since the inception of the program in 1994, the primary objective of auction and raffle permits has been to generate revenue specifically for the management of the hunted species. As such, specific code was adopted in RCW 77.32.530 and WACs 232-28-290 and 232-28-292. These codes established the fiscal requirements for auction and raffle funds and describe structure of auction and raffle procedures and hunting opportunities.
@Pegasus have you ever purchased a raffle ticket?
Post by: Bushcraft on July 02, 2019, 10:59:17 AM
I think you should stick to pedaling frivolous lawsuits.
If posting odds was a money maker HF would do it...so would every other western state. End of discussion.
End of discussion? :rolleyes:
Carry on then. I'm happy to not have to repeatedly illustrate that you don't know what you don't know.
Post by: Bushcraft on July 02, 2019, 11:00:23 AM
@Pegasus I don't have a dog in this fight, but there's no "insider info" here. Email WDFW and ask them for updated raffle sale #'s....that's all you gotta do. No offense to @Bushcraft but his use of the "internal contact" or whatever he said was probably a little fancier sounding than it needed to be. Any joe shmo off the street can reach out to WDFW and ask whebever they want to, whether they bought no tickets or 10,000 tickets.I will testify that I knew last weeks ticket sales. I sent an email to my internal contact at WDFW, wildthing@dfw.wa.gov and two hours later I got a reply with the numbers. It never entered my mind that it might be seen as scandalous to reach out to them and ask a question. I just figured I buy a license every year and that pays their salary they should answer a question if asked. I didn’t even have to fill out the standard form public request for information.
Again if you need me to testify to that I have no problem. I still have the email exchange if needed. Not sure what me testifying will prove, maybe that the WDFW does want us to have the information. :dunno:
Nice try. Where on the raffle site does the game dept reveal to the general public that you can obtain current numbers on the raffles by either emailing or calling? How many raffle participants are aware that they are doing this for the wealthy? Yes you are included in that category. I know...its relative but most hunters can't spent $16,000 bucks on a raffle for goats like some can at a whim with special "inside info" from certain people at the WDFW. Save your emails please.
Nowhere on WDFW's website have I ever seen it mentioned to do lots of things that are doable. I email biologists every year for info on areas I plan to hunt. I've never seen anywhere where it says to do that. They do make it clear that the primary goal of the program is to generate revenue, not to be fair to the average joe(me) or anything else for that matter. That is here:
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/special-hunts/auction-raffle-faq
Since the inception of the program in 1994, the primary objective of auction and raffle permits has been to generate revenue specifically for the management of the hunted species. As such, specific code was adopted in RCW 77.32.530 and WACs 232-28-290 and 232-28-292. These codes established the fiscal requirements for auction and raffle funds and describe structure of auction and raffle procedures and hunting opportunities.
@Pegasus have you ever purchased a raffle ticket?
:yeah: Exactly.
Post by: jackelope on July 02, 2019, 11:23:44 AM
@Pegasus I don't have a dog in this fight, but there's no "insider info" here. Email WDFW and ask them for updated raffle sale #'s....that's all you gotta do. No offense to @Bushcraft but his use of the "internal contact" or whatever he said was probably a little fancier sounding than it needed to be. Any joe shmo off the street can reach out to WDFW and ask whebever they want to, whether they bought no tickets or 10,000 tickets.I will testify that I knew last weeks ticket sales. I sent an email to my internal contact at WDFW, wildthing@dfw.wa.gov and two hours later I got a reply with the numbers. It never entered my mind that it might be seen as scandalous to reach out to them and ask a question. I just figured I buy a license every year and that pays their salary they should answer a question if asked. I didn’t even have to fill out the standard form public request for information.
Again if you need me to testify to that I have no problem. I still have the email exchange if needed. Not sure what me testifying will prove, maybe that the WDFW does want us to have the information. :dunno:
Nice try. Where on the raffle site does the game dept reveal to the general public that you can obtain current numbers on the raffles by either emailing or calling? How many raffle participants are aware that they are doing this for the wealthy? Yes you are included in that category. I know...its relative but most hunters can't spent $16,000 bucks on a raffle for goats like some can at a whim with special "inside info" from certain people at the WDFW. Save your emails please.
Nowhere on WDFW's website have I ever seen it mentioned to do lots of things that are doable. I email biologists every year for info on areas I plan to hunt. I've never seen anywhere where it says to do that. They do make it clear that the primary goal of the program is to generate revenue, not to be fair to the average joe(me) or anything else for that matter. That is here:
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/special-hunts/auction-raffle-faq
Since the inception of the program in 1994, the primary objective of auction and raffle permits has been to generate revenue specifically for the management of the hunted species. As such, specific code was adopted in RCW 77.32.530 and WACs 232-28-290 and 232-28-292. These codes established the fiscal requirements for auction and raffle funds and describe structure of auction and raffle procedures and hunting opportunities.
@Pegasus have you ever purchased a raffle ticket?
:yeah: Exactly.
I will add to my comments that there isn't a shred of anything in me that thinks they don't update the numbers as some sort of cover up one way or the other. We've got one member complaining about no updates on behalf of the big spenders and another member complaining about no updates on behalf of the average joe guys. As far as I go, they have zero responsibility to update the numbers at all, so a single update at all is more than we're "entitled" to.
Post by: Bushcraft on July 02, 2019, 12:06:37 PM
I will add to my comments that there isn't a shred of anything in me that thinks they don't update the numbers as some sort of cover up one way or the other. We've got one member complaining about no updates on behalf of the big spenders and another member complaining about no updates on behalf of the average joe guys. As far as I go, they have zero responsibility to update the numbers at all, so a single update at all is more than we're "entitled" to.
If I may be so bold as to reword your statement from my perspective:
We've got some members complaining on behalf of big spenders about no updates because them not knowing the updated odds factually reduces the amount of additional tickets big spenders may be willing to buy to improve their odds of winning, thereby reducing much needed revenues for species specific wildlife conservation efforts. And, we've got some members complaining on behalf of average joes about not wanting updates so that average joes will have better odds of winning a raffle since far fewer raffle tickets will be purchased.
Note that both are complaining for self-serving reasons.
Post by: idahohuntr on July 02, 2019, 12:29:27 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on July 02, 2019, 12:35:47 PM
Great post jackelope about the point of the raffles is to generate revenue.
They do generate a ton of revenue and everybody that buys a ticket has a chance to win the tag of a lifetime.
Last year I bought 200 eastside elk tickets. $1,200, that’s $100 a month, less than $4 a day I set aside to take a swing at winning. Some people spend more than that on coffee, cigarettes or beer a month.
I had the quality archery elk tag the year before and just wanted to hunt bulls again. With one point in the general draw odds were dismal and I didn’t draw. 200 tickets gave me great odds in the raffle. 3% is what my odds ended up when sales closed.
My best ticket was #9 or#10 I can’t remember. What I do remember is the guy that had tickets 2-8 and a ton of numbers after me spent $18,000 or something like that. The guy with the wining ticket spent $30.
Anyone can win.
Post by: Bushcraft on July 02, 2019, 01:00:28 PM
There's a third category you are neglecting. Those of us who do not purchase raffle tickets that simply want WDFW to get maximum revenue out of any raffle/auction of wildlife in this state IF they are determined to offer said raffle/auction tags.
:rolleyes:
You're right. For obvious reasons I intentially didn't include the perspective of forum members that complain, but aren't actually participating in the raffle ticket arena.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena."
Oh, the juicy irony of your signature line.
:drool: :tung: :chuckle:
Post by: idahohuntr on July 02, 2019, 01:20:32 PM
If you had even a modest knowledge of the NAMWC you would understand why active participation in auctions and raffles is not a prerequisite for having equally valid say in how the publics wildlife resources are allocated.There's a third category you are neglecting. Those of us who do not purchase raffle tickets that simply want WDFW to get maximum revenue out of any raffle/auction of wildlife in this state IF they are determined to offer said raffle/auction tags.
:rolleyes:
You're right. For obvious reasons I intentially didn't include the perspective of forum members that complain, but aren't actually participating in the raffle ticket arena.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena."
Oh, the juicy irony of your signature line.
:drool: :tung: :chuckle:
Post by: Bushcraft on July 02, 2019, 01:47:58 PM
If you had even a modest knowledge of the NAMWC you would understand why active participation in auctions and raffles is not a prerequisite for having equally valid say in how the publics wildlife resources are allocated.There's a third category you are neglecting. Those of us who do not purchase raffle tickets that simply want WDFW to get maximum revenue out of any raffle/auction of wildlife in this state IF they are determined to offer said raffle/auction tags.
:rolleyes:
You're right. For obvious reasons I intentially didn't include the perspective of forum members that complain, but aren't actually participating in the raffle ticket arena.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena."
Oh, the juicy irony of your signature line.
:drool: :tung: :chuckle:
What's up with your habitually vacuous need to infer my perspective and knowledge base is somehow being less than or inferior to yours? Of course I have an intimate understanding of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation.
So much for your hypocritically lame attempt at playing the "equally valid" card. Haha!
And no, not all viewpoints are equally valid. That's an utterly mindless logical fallacy.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 02, 2019, 02:17:29 PM
Here is some other 2018 raffle information for you to digest. Purchasers is the number of people who bought a ticket in each category last year. Tickets sold speaks for itself. If they capped the sales to only one ticket per person you would definitely see revenue drop.Just thought I would bring this to the top of the discussion again and try to get this thing back on track. Hopefully you two can just agree to disagree.
Category Purchasers Tickets
BT deer 222 1094
West elk 358 1977
Mule deer 509 2516
WT deer 214 1425
East elk 551 6365
Goat 310 4482
Moose 842 3676
NC combo 196 7717
NE combo 296 901
Sheep 344 6734
SC combo 268 4398
SE combo 148 790
3 Deer 201 1812
Take a look at the North central combo sales. 196 people bought 7717 tickets. Maybe they each bought 40 tickets at $17 each but my guess is a few individuals spent some big coin. If you cap ticket sales to give the little guy better odds do you really think you are going to increase ticket sales to single ticket buyers enough to offset the loss of the guys that buy 1,000's of tickets?
No, you are going to see two or three big spenders step out of the market and increase your individual ticket buyers by maybe 25%/50 more people buying tickets and sell 300-400 raffle tickets at $17 a pop versus 7,717 tickets that you sell with the big money buying tickets.
The point of the raffles is to generate revenue and that is exactly what they are doing.
In my opinion they generate more money by having the results available so the big money can decide where they want to gamble their money. Maybe if they didn't show the results sales would be higher. I guess they could try that one year and see what sales do. We have the data showing what sales are and they are pretty consistent each year. It would be interesting to see how much big money gambles on the raffles not knowing what the odds are. It would be more like playing a slot machine versus 21.
In the end it is a revenue generate gamble. That's why you have to buy the tickets at the store not online. Online gambling is illegal in this state.
Post by: Pegasus on July 03, 2019, 07:22:49 PM
Post by: jackelope on July 03, 2019, 08:15:25 PM
Its is a raffle and it is covered under the state gambling laws. That is why you can't you can't purchase tickets online. Since when is it OK to favor a select few? People are justifying the illegal actions by claiming that the state derives more revenues by screwing the general population instead of treating all purchasers the same. They release numbers privately to entice big buyers and they are giving them an advantage by releasing the numbers of bets already placed to a select few. If it were a fair gamble you would make the same info available to all at the same same time or not at all to everyone. They only release numbers at their selected times to pretend to be playing fair. They are not. I suspect the state will be challenged in court if enough of us deplorables start asking hard questions. Either release the numbers simultaneously as they occur or not at all. They surely can if they want to. Buyers want to know what the odds are. More buyers = less odds of winning. Why should some clown or a few select clowns get fed that info when the rest of us deplorables don't? What if you go to the local casino and a select few know what machines have the best odds or the best time to place a bet to win? We can always justify criminal behavior with poor excuses but they are just that... poor excuses. Stop rigging the raffles and don't get me started about the permit draw applications.
But the slots at the Snoqualmie casino don’t give you the odds of winning, do they? Legit question. I’ve never been.
They announce ticket sales every so often. It seems they usually update the numbers on Monday’s. Not every Monday. If you want to ask the numbers, shoot them an email and ask them. There are no secrets. I feel like you’re overthinking things. I’ve always been anti-raffle tickets in favor of the regular joe and sort of still am, but your argument doesn’t make sense to me. I’m just being honest. Not trying to argue with anyone.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 03, 2019, 08:21:10 PM
Its is a raffle and it is covered under the state gambling laws. That is why you can't you can't purchase tickets online. Since when is it OK to favor a select few? People are justifying the illegal actions by claiming that the state derives more revenues by screwing the general population instead of treating all purchasers the same. They release numbers privately to entice big buyers and they are giving them an advantage by releasing the numbers of bets already placed to a select few. If it were a fair gamble you would make the same info available to all at the same same time or not at all to everyone. They only release numbers at their selected times to pretend to be playing fair. They are not. I suspect the state will be challenged in court if enough of us deplorables start asking hard questions. Either release the numbers simultaneously as they occur or not at all. They surely can if they want to. Buyers want to know what the odds are. More buyers = less odds of winning. Why should some clown or a few select clowns get fed that info when the rest of us deplorables don't? What if you go to the local casino and a select few know what machines have the best odds or the best time to place a bet to win? We can always justify criminal behavior with poor excuses but they are just that... poor excuses. Stop rigging the raffles and don't get me started about the permit draw applications.Well this clown emailed and asked. I assume You contacted them and were told no they weren’t allowed to have that information. Did you get the clerks name or save the email response that said you can’t the information the other clowns were given?
It would be deplorable if someone didn’t even ask the question after reading this thread and seeing so many members say that they had to contact WDFW and ask for the information which WDFW then just gave to them.
I kind of track the sales using the difference between my ticket bought the week before and the ticket I buy the next week. From there I calculate out how many total tickets were sold and then use that to calculate the average increases in tickets sold per the last update. Then if they don’t give an update for two weeks I still have an idea of sales.
It’s really not that hard to do the math. It’s also not hard to send an email saying when are results going to be updated? Can you tell me current sales for this in category X?
How much effort have you put in to finding out? Or are you one those people who think everything should be given to you without any effort on your part?
How many tickets have you bought?
Post by: idaho guy on July 03, 2019, 08:35:33 PM
"The only thing that's remotely unfair is that we taxpayers have lazy, incompetent people (not)working for us in our state and federal agencies that are almost impossible to fire. They could, and should, have the numbers of raffle tickets sold updated instantly online. Which was my initial gripe and warning a few years ago."
I agree that the numbers should be posted almost instantaneously but let us not blame people for not posting the numbers as incompetent. I am sure the the raffle numbers are updated and viewed daily by the higher-ups at the WDFW. Not releasing the numbers for two weeks after the permit draws notifications is not an accident IMHO.
If you call a company and some clerk gives you info that allows you to make an investment based on non-disclosed info you get to go to jail. Seems like someone got sentenced to 4 years today for selling on non-public info. Giving out non-public info to a select few on a raffle that increases their odds does not sound any different. Wide dissemination is the key...not buddies at the WDFW for a few.
Your comparison of insider trading and raffle numbers is funny. To be illegal you would need information that’s not available to the public at all. With the raffles ANYONE can call and get the updated numbers from the department they just have to make the small effort to call. That is not rigged and sometimes you don’t need to be hand fed everything from the government to call it “fair”. The information is available to everyone in the same way. ( you might need to pick up the phone though)The drama on this site is awesome what was the original question? :chuckle::chuckle: carry on!
Post by: idaho guy on July 03, 2019, 08:53:57 PM
That's a lot of rambling for a simple "explanation". :chuckle: There is a reason no other western state or private companies provide real time draw odds on their wildlife/hunt raffles. But even if I try to follow your "logic" trail do you really believe there are not big spenders in Wyoming, Idaho, Montana raffles...which is your direct assertion since those states do not provide real time odds. Perhaps the more clear example: why do you suppose a private company founded on the basis of providing draw odds to its members (huntin fool) NEVER provides the draw odds of their various raffle hunts? Hmmmm...a profit motivated private company doesn't share odds on their raffles and they've been doing them for decades...don't worry, business acumen, finance, law etc. are clearly not your strong suits. I'm sure you have other talents though. :tup:Two lines of evidence that do not support your belief that WDFW generates more revenue by posting updated ticket sales:If they were smart AND good stewards of the publics resources they would not update the numbers until after the draw is complete...or not at all.
Wrong, on both accounts. At least you're consistent.
We already went through the basic math relating to the need to update the numbers. "Whales" or "Mr. Bigs" aren't going to play if they don't know what the odds are. No odds, no whales...substantially less revenue. Not sure why you're having difficulty with the straightforward concept.
As to "not at all" posting the number of tickets purchased (that's how you wrote it), WDFW is a public agency and they work for us. Every bleeping dime and action is accountable and should be absolutely transparent, both on the inflows and outflows. To suggest otherwise is delving into big-government-knows-best-pinko-commie territory amigo.
1. People whining their purchases have not been reflected on the ticket sales page quickly enough - a clear and obvious attempt of "whales" to discourage others from purchasing tickets.
2. Virtually no other Western State or private company (e.g., huntin fool) offers real time updates of raffle ticket sales.
Your suggestion that no "whales" will participate if they don't know the odds is interesting. Are you suggesting Wyoming, Idaho, Montana etc. don't have "whales" buying loads of raffle tickets? I unequivocally know that to be a false assertion.
Good grief. I'm seriously biting my tongue here.
You need to take a remedial Logic course idahohunter. Neither of your points are evidence or supportive of your opinion that not updating ticket sales would somehow generate more revenue for the department.
Let's paint this picture differently to try and help you to understand. Let's use the lottery. MegaMillions Powerball or whatever it's called.
So, take a moment and pause from desperately wanting to be right (or make me appear to be wrong, same difference :dunno: ) and reflect upon why the lotteries display the increasing value of a given lottery.
Why is it that the stores and machines that sell them advertise the updated amount you could win if you played?
It's been long since proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the larger the lottery pool, the more people will buy more lottery tickets. Limited transparency into potential payout, and odds of winning, dramatically diminishes participation.
When the lottery is a "paltry" $15 million, very few people bother playing. When it builds up to $800 million, LOTS of people play that otherwise wouldn't even remotely consider wasting a buck or two on a lottery ticket. Once that lottery gets up to hundreds of millions, playing at that level is a lark. As a student of human nature, I can tell you that it's a silly phenomenon because either amount would dramatically alter the lives of the winner. Accordingly, why don't people play all the time? Well, due to some oddities of human perception, they are more drawn to the prospects of a potentially larger payout even though they know the odds of winning either are approximately zero.
Now, let's shift gears to raffles for something with a fixed payout value. Fixed in the sense that there is an essentially known value of a given item and there is a ceiling on the value of the item. It's not like a lottery that just gets bigger if no one wins. When it comes to the type of raffles like the ones we are discussing, far fewer people with essentially zero chance of winning will still play but they'll only buy a relatively small number of tickets per person. The vast majority will only buy one. That's just the way these things go. That number would change dramatically if it cost $50,000,000 to go on a sheep hunt and the winning raffle ticket was transferable to a willing buyer or redeemable in cash. Understandably, far more people would be willing to take a chance and buy a ticket worth $50MM even if they weren't hunters. But, sheep hunts just don't come anywhere near that coast and there's only a few people - relatively speaking in a state of 7.5MM people, that want to hunt sheep anyway. In fact, it's relatively easy to figure out since all one has to do is look up the number of people that put in for special permit applications, or even raffle tags for that matter. It's a comparatively small percentage of the population. Again, the vast majority of whom, if historical data is any indication will just buy one ticket, even though they could theoretically buy an unlimited quantity.
But, if there is some perceived chance at increasing their odds of winning a fixed value raffle, some of the people will carefully weigh the "sure thing" cost of just buying the hunt vs. the risk of a gambling loss. Some will just forego playing, and save up and pay for the hunt outright. Others will have the financial wherewithal to lay down a pile of cash to gain better odds of winning, but they'll only do so up to a point that makes sense to them on a single throw or over a year over year basis. For example, if someone buys 33% percent of the expected number of raffle tickets sold every year, odds are that they'll get it once every three years (with no guarantee of course). They'll likely end up paying a third of the cost, two thirds of the cost or the full cost for a guided hunt. If it's a third...great. If it's two-thirds...nice discount. Full boat...they wanted to go sheep hunting anyway. If their luck totally sucked, they disposable income at that level is such that they can scrape up something and just go. Bottome line is they are just playing the odds with disposable income that they would nototherwise spend at all if they didn't know the odds. The lower the understanding of what the odds are, the lower the interest level in playing. The lower the interest level in playing, the lower amount of disposable income they are going to play with. The lower amount they play with, the lower the revenue generated by the raffle.
It's just that simple.
There are a lot of hunters that refuse to buy Huntin fool raffle tickets for one reason they don’t provide odds. I guess they have calculated it’s worth it but they have alienated quite a few customers. I know I am way less likely to purchase without knowing the odds and won’t buy Huntn fool tickets because of it. Even if they are crappy I want to know and I am definitely not a whale. I agree with bushcraft a whale is way more likely to dump big money when he can calculate his odds.full disclosure : I will be flooding the goat raffle next week with at least 2 tickets! Just so you all aren’t caught off guard. :chuckle:
Post by: jackelope on July 03, 2019, 09:17:31 PM
Asking for a friend.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 03, 2019, 10:07:05 PM
Post by: Pegasus on July 04, 2019, 08:10:39 AM
"The only thing that's remotely unfair is that we taxpayers have lazy, incompetent people (not)working for us in our state and federal agencies that are almost impossible to fire. They could, and should, have the numbers of raffle tickets sold updated instantly online. Which was my initial gripe and warning a few years ago."
I agree that the numbers should be posted almost instantaneously but let us not blame people for not posting the numbers as incompetent. I am sure the the raffle numbers are updated and viewed daily by the higher-ups at the WDFW. Not releasing the numbers for two weeks after the permit draws notifications is not an accident IMHO.
If you call a company and some clerk gives you info that allows you to make an investment based on non-disclosed info you get to go to jail. Seems like someone got sentenced to 4 years today for selling on non-public info. Giving out non-public info to a select few on a raffle that increases their odds does not sound any different. Wide dissemination is the key...not buddies at the WDFW for a few.
Your comparison of insider trading and raffle numbers is funny. To be illegal you would need information that’s not available to the public at all. With the raffles ANYONE can call and get the updated numbers from the department they just have to make the small effort to call. That is not rigged and sometimes you don’t need to be hand fed everything from the government to call it “fair”. The information is available to everyone in the same way. ( you might need to pick up the phone though)The drama on this site is awesome what was the original question? :chuckle::chuckle: carry on!
Not so. Insider trading information is info that is not widely disseminated. Try calling a company and asking for their earnings before they have widely disseminated them. The raffle page is the wide dissemination of the numbers which they choose to update on a whim. There is no notice on the site to call or email for updated numbers and I am sure the WDFW can't handle an email or phone cal from everyone interested in buying tickets and I doubt they are even attempting to do so for the masses. It is by design to manipulate purchases for increasing the amount of money bet in these auctions by giving special treatment to a select few and by doing so they are breaking the law. The large purchasers are now freaking out that they have exposed themselves by admitting to having an "inside track" that most have been unaware of. That is classic inside info excuses. They think they deserve special treatment because they can make large purchases. You can see this in their demands to know how many tickets I have purchased as if that makes some difference in how the raffle is being run. Not so and everyone knows it. You are not supposed to get special treatment and you know you have been getting it because of your wealth. Not everyone can afford to buy two hundred tickets or plunk down $16000 for goat tickets. You are not entitled to special treatment versus the general public but you have been getting it.
Post by: jackelope on July 04, 2019, 09:30:01 AM
"The only thing that's remotely unfair is that we taxpayers have lazy, incompetent people (not)working for us in our state and federal agencies that are almost impossible to fire. They could, and should, have the numbers of raffle tickets sold updated instantly online. Which was my initial gripe and warning a few years ago."
I agree that the numbers should be posted almost instantaneously but let us not blame people for not posting the numbers as incompetent. I am sure the the raffle numbers are updated and viewed daily by the higher-ups at the WDFW. Not releasing the numbers for two weeks after the permit draws notifications is not an accident IMHO.
If you call a company and some clerk gives you info that allows you to make an investment based on non-disclosed info you get to go to jail. Seems like someone got sentenced to 4 years today for selling on non-public info. Giving out non-public info to a select few on a raffle that increases their odds does not sound any different. Wide dissemination is the key...not buddies at the WDFW for a few.
Your comparison of insider trading and raffle numbers is funny. To be illegal you would need information that’s not available to the public at all. With the raffles ANYONE can call and get the updated numbers from the department they just have to make the small effort to call. That is not rigged and sometimes you don’t need to be hand fed everything from the government to call it “fair”. The information is available to everyone in the same way. ( you might need to pick up the phone though)The drama on this site is awesome what was the original question? :chuckle::chuckle: carry on!
Not so. Insider trading information is info that is not widely disseminated. Try calling a company and asking for their earnings before they have widely disseminated them. The raffle page is the wide dissemination of the numbers which they choose to update on a whim. There is no notice on the site to call or email for updated numbers and I am sure the WDFW can't handle an email or phone cal from everyone interested in buying tickets and I doubt they are even attempting to do so for the masses. It is by design to manipulate purchases for increasing the amount of money bet in these auctions by giving special treatment to a select few and by doing so they are breaking the law. The large purchasers are now freaking out that they have exposed themselves by admitting to having an "inside track" that most have been unaware of. That is classic inside info excuses. They think they deserve special treatment because they can make large purchases. You can see this in their demands to know how many tickets I have purchased as if that makes some difference in how the raffle is being run. Not so and everyone knows it. You are not supposed to get special treatment and you know you have been getting it because of your wealth. Not everyone can afford to buy two hundred tickets or plunk down $16000 for goat tickets. You are not entitled to special treatment versus the general public but you have been getting it.
There’s also nowhere on the WDFW website where it says they will or won’t update sales numbers.
I’m not demanding to know how many tickets you’ve purchased if you’re referring to my questions. That seems pretty clear in the question I asked. I couldn’t care less how many tickets you’ve purchased or in what categories. I’ve asked a couple times if you buy raffle tickets. That’s all. Do you participate or do you just complain and make claims that what they’re doing is somehow illegal?
I’ve complained openly in the past about the raffle system. I’m not a huge fan. But I also don’t make claims anything is illegal and I don’t dwell on the fact that a guy threw a large amount of dollars down on some goat raffle tickets.
(Not sure if you’re aware but every one of those $16,000 went directly back to mountain goat conservation too by the way)
Post by: Dan-o on July 04, 2019, 11:28:35 AM
"The only thing that's remotely unfair is that we taxpayers have lazy, incompetent people (not)working for us in our state and federal agencies that are almost impossible to fire. They could, and should, have the numbers of raffle tickets sold updated instantly online. Which was my initial gripe and warning a few years ago."
I agree that the numbers should be posted almost instantaneously but let us not blame people for not posting the numbers as incompetent. I am sure the the raffle numbers are updated and viewed daily by the higher-ups at the WDFW. Not releasing the numbers for two weeks after the permit draws notifications is not an accident IMHO.
If you call a company and some clerk gives you info that allows you to make an investment based on non-disclosed info you get to go to jail. Seems like someone got sentenced to 4 years today for selling on non-public info. Giving out non-public info to a select few on a raffle that increases their odds does not sound any different. Wide dissemination is the key...not buddies at the WDFW for a few.
Your comparison of insider trading and raffle numbers is funny. To be illegal you would need information that’s not available to the public at all. With the raffles ANYONE can call and get the updated numbers from the department they just have to make the small effort to call. That is not rigged and sometimes you don’t need to be hand fed everything from the government to call it “fair”. The information is available to everyone in the same way. ( you might need to pick up the phone though)The drama on this site is awesome what was the original question? :chuckle::chuckle: carry on!
Not so. Insider trading information is info that is not widely disseminated. Try calling a company and asking for their earnings before they have widely disseminated them. The raffle page is the wide dissemination of the numbers which they choose to update on a whim. There is no notice on the site to call or email for updated numbers and I am sure the WDFW can't handle an email or phone cal from everyone interested in buying tickets and I doubt they are even attempting to do so for the masses. It is by design to manipulate purchases for increasing the amount of money bet in these auctions by giving special treatment to a select few and by doing so they are breaking the law. The large purchasers are now freaking out that they have exposed themselves by admitting to having an "inside track" that most have been unaware of. That is classic inside info excuses. They think they deserve special treatment because they can make large purchases. You can see this in their demands to know how many tickets I have purchased as if that makes some difference in how the raffle is being run. Not so and everyone knows it. You are not supposed to get special treatment and you know you have been getting it because of your wealth. Not everyone can afford to buy two hundred tickets or plunk down $16000 for goat tickets. You are not entitled to special treatment versus the general public but you have been getting it.
Pegasus,
Your analogy of insider trading is 100% inaccurate.
EVERYBODY has the same "Inside Source".
You just need to pick up the phone and bounce around until you get the right extension/person.
Insider trading is conducted on the basis of info others don't have access to...... not info others don't bother going after.
I've called and asked...... and I was never asked if I bought raffle tickets.
Post by: idaho guy on July 04, 2019, 12:10:48 PM
"The only thing that's remotely unfair is that we taxpayers have lazy, incompetent people (not)working for us in our state and federal agencies that are almost impossible to fire. They could, and should, have the numbers of raffle tickets sold updated instantly online. Which was my initial gripe and warning a few years ago."
I agree that the numbers should be posted almost instantaneously but let us not blame people for not posting the numbers as incompetent. I am sure the the raffle numbers are updated and viewed daily by the higher-ups at the WDFW. Not releasing the numbers for two weeks after the permit draws notifications is not an accident IMHO.
If you call a company and some clerk gives you info that allows you to make an investment based on non-disclosed info you get to go to jail. Seems like someone got sentenced to 4 years today for selling on non-public info. Giving out non-public info to a select few on a raffle that increases their odds does not sound any different. Wide dissemination is the key...not buddies at the WDFW for a few.
Your comparison of insider trading and raffle numbers is funny. To be illegal you would need information that’s not available to the public at all. With the raffles ANYONE can call and get the updated numbers from the department they just have to make the small effort to call. That is not rigged and sometimes you don’t need to be hand fed everything from the government to call it “fair”. The information is available to everyone in the same way. ( you might need to pick up the phone though)The drama on this site is awesome what was the original question? :chuckle::chuckle: carry on!
Not so. Insider trading information is info that is not widely disseminated. Try calling a company and asking for their earnings before they have widely disseminated them. The raffle page is the wide dissemination of the numbers which they choose to update on a whim. There is no notice on the site to call or email for updated numbers and I am sure the WDFW can't handle an email or phone cal from everyone interested in buying tickets and I doubt they are even attempting to do so for the masses. It is by design to manipulate purchases for increasing the amount of money bet in these auctions by giving special treatment to a select few and by doing so they are breaking the law. The large purchasers are now freaking out that they have exposed themselves by admitting to having an "inside track" that most have been unaware of. That is classic inside info excuses. They think they deserve special treatment because they can make large purchases. You can see this in their demands to know how many tickets I have purchased as if that makes some difference in how the raffle is being run. Not so and everyone knows it. You are not supposed to get special treatment and you know you have been getting it because of your wealth. Not everyone can afford to buy two hundred tickets or plunk down $16000 for goat tickets. You are not entitled to special treatment versus the general public but you have been getting it.
That’s not true public information is legal to act upon and does not have to be broadcast to every possible person. Call wdfw and see if you can’t get some “inside “ information. Have a good 4th :tup:
Post by: Ridgerunner on July 04, 2019, 02:25:20 PM
For years the detailed drawing information of who put in for each hunt by point level was available for the folks that put forth the effort to do a PD and get it. I suppose you would have thought that was insider trading too. Now that information is published so its not as useful as it was, however most people don't understand how to use it or apply it so 99% of people don't even look at it. Does that mean that those who do get an unfair advantage because they put forth the extra effort to figure it out?
I think most everything that happens in government is public record, they obviously don't publish everything but if you want it they will get it for you, just takes a little effort on your behalf.
Post by: Bushcraft on July 04, 2019, 02:32:16 PM
Where is the popcorn? I seriously cant believe the circles that are being run around on this thread. The information is there, it is available, all a person has to do is seek it out. I personally think if someone wants to put forth some additional info then yeah they can get the updated information. That in no way is insider trading. It's proactive research and turning every rock over they can find so they can make the best decision they want.
For years the detailed drawing information of who put in for each hunt by point level was available for the folks that put forth the effort to do a PD and get it. I suppose you would have thought that was insider trading too. Now that information is published so its not as useful as it was, however most people don't understand how to use it or apply it so 99% of people don't even look at it. Does that mean that those who do get an unfair advantage because they put forth the extra effort to figure it out?
I think most everything that happens in government is public record, they obviously don't publish everything but if you want it they will get it for you, just takes a little effort on your behalf.
Amen.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 04, 2019, 03:15:22 PM
Where is the popcorn? I seriously cant believe the circles that are being run around on this thread. The information is there, it is available, all a person has to do is seek it out. I personally think if someone wants to put forth some additional info then yeah they can get the updated information. That in no way is insider trading. It's proactive research and turning every rock over they can find so they can make the best decision they want.
For years the detailed drawing information of who put in for each hunt by point level was available for the folks that put forth the effort to do a PD and get it. I suppose you would have thought that was insider trading too. Now that information is published so its not as useful as it was, however most people don't understand how to use it or apply it so 99% of people don't even look at it. Does that mean that those who do get an unfair advantage because they put forth the extra effort to figure it out?
I think most everything that happens in government is public record, they obviously don't publish everything but if you want it they will get it for you, just takes a little effort on your behalf.
Post by: Pegasus on July 05, 2019, 07:18:51 AM
Post by: jackelope on July 05, 2019, 07:58:35 AM
And the excuses and disinformation here continue...as expected.
You're skirting the details. Please specify examples of the excuses and misinformation you're referring to. Without that, your argument is null.
Post by: idaho guy on July 05, 2019, 08:51:24 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on July 05, 2019, 09:47:20 AM
I was at a town meeting with the WDFW. A guy was complaining about the elk season in his rural area. Had a petition signed by 500 people wanting the season changed. After explaining it all to David Ware, David asked if he could have the list of signatures to review. The petitioner said yes but asked why. Dave said he was going to take a sample of the names on the list and see if the even had hunting licenses or elk tags.
He said if they don’t pay into the system and participate I’m not going to put as much weight on how they think they game should be managed.
It would be really nice to know how much skin everyone has in the game that are complaining about the players and the game.
Post by: jackelope on July 05, 2019, 10:05:18 AM
https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,240736.msg3222753/topicseen.html#new
Post by: JimmyHoffa on July 08, 2019, 08:17:31 AM
Post by: ipkus on July 08, 2019, 09:09:12 AM
WDFW is going to have to pay for their transparency on these freedom of information requests they handle for those that understand the information is there if you just ask for it.
I was at a town meeting with the WDFW. A guy was complaining about the elk season in his rural area. Had a petition signed by 500 people wanting the season changed. After explaining it all to David Ware, David asked if he could have the list of signatures to review. The petitioner said yes but asked why. Dave said he was going to take a sample of the names on the list and see if the even had hunting licenses or elk tags.
He said if they don’t pay into the system and participate I’m not going to put as much weight on how they think they game should be managed.
It would be really nice to know how much skin everyone has in the game that are complaining about the players and the game.
Interesting that Mr. Ware would say that while the rest of WDFW doesn't manage anything else that way? Where do all the predator lovers pay into the system? Or the whale lovers?
Post by: idahohuntr on July 08, 2019, 11:28:28 AM
WDFW is going to have to pay for their transparency on these freedom of information requests they handle for those that understand the information is there if you just ask for it.That's an easy one to answer: if you are a citizen of the State of WA you are an equal co-owner of all the wildlife found within its borders. That's the 'skin' in the game.
I was at a town meeting with the WDFW. A guy was complaining about the elk season in his rural area. Had a petition signed by 500 people wanting the season changed. After explaining it all to David Ware, David asked if he could have the list of signatures to review. The petitioner said yes but asked why. Dave said he was going to take a sample of the names on the list and see if the even had hunting licenses or elk tags.
He said if they don’t pay into the system and participate I’m not going to put as much weight on how they think they game should be managed.
It would be really nice to know how much skin everyone has in the game that are complaining about the players and the game.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on July 08, 2019, 11:42:42 AM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on July 08, 2019, 11:44:15 AM
updated. Looks like more are buying them now.
Yup, I came off the hill for a trip to town for parts. Figured I should get in the game.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 08, 2019, 12:24:20 PM
So you are okay with the citizens of King county voting to ban hound hunting of cougars and bear baiting? They don’t all hunt or buy licenses but they want the rules changed and they got it done. They are citizens with skin in the game.WDFW is going to have to pay for their transparency on these freedom of information requests they handle for those that understand the information is there if you just ask for it.That's an easy one to answer: if you are a citizen of the State of WA you are an equal co-owner of all the wildlife found within its borders. That's the 'skin' in the game.
I was at a town meeting with the WDFW. A guy was complaining about the elk season in his rural area. Had a petition signed by 500 people wanting the season changed. After explaining it all to David Ware, David asked if he could have the list of signatures to review. The petitioner said yes but asked why. Dave said he was going to take a sample of the names on the list and see if the even had hunting licenses or elk tags.
He said if they don’t pay into the system and participate I’m not going to put as much weight on how they think they game should be managed.
It would be really nice to know how much skin everyone has in the game that are complaining about the players and the game.
Post by: idahohuntr on July 08, 2019, 12:59:56 PM
Each voter in King County has the same ownership as a voter in Stevens County. While I do not like or agree with the initiative it is the prerogative of the citizens of the state to decide how their wildlife is managed. In this state, a majority do not want their bears and cats chased with hounds. Me being a hunter and not liking it does not mean my vote counts more than another citizens...however uninformed they may be. :chuckle:So you are okay with the citizens of King county voting to ban hound hunting of cougars and bear baiting? They don’t all hunt or buy licenses but they want the rules changed and they got it done. They are citizens with skin in the game.WDFW is going to have to pay for their transparency on these freedom of information requests they handle for those that understand the information is there if you just ask for it.That's an easy one to answer: if you are a citizen of the State of WA you are an equal co-owner of all the wildlife found within its borders. That's the 'skin' in the game.
I was at a town meeting with the WDFW. A guy was complaining about the elk season in his rural area. Had a petition signed by 500 people wanting the season changed. After explaining it all to David Ware, David asked if he could have the list of signatures to review. The petitioner said yes but asked why. Dave said he was going to take a sample of the names on the list and see if the even had hunting licenses or elk tags.
He said if they don’t pay into the system and participate I’m not going to put as much weight on how they think they game should be managed.
It would be really nice to know how much skin everyone has in the game that are complaining about the players and the game.
For sake of keeping this thread at least on the raffle permits...lets presume one is arguing you must buy raffle tickets to have a valid opinion on how (or IF) the raffle is conducted. My contention is that is absurd...its a public resource being raffled off and we all have equal say in how public resources are managed.
I don't need to buy a $6 raffle ticket to have an equal and valid opinion on raffling off extremely limited public resources...No more than I need to be a drunk driver to have a valid opinion on legal BAC limits for traveling a public highway.
Post by: Bango skank on July 08, 2019, 01:07:22 PM
Post by: jackelope on July 08, 2019, 01:21:00 PM
Each voter in King County has the same ownership as a voter in Stevens County. While I do not like or agree with the initiative it is the prerogative of the citizens of the state to decide how their wildlife is managed. In this state, a majority do not want their bears and cats chased with hounds. Me being a hunter and not liking it does not mean my vote counts more than another citizens...however uninformed they may be. :chuckle:So you are okay with the citizens of King county voting to ban hound hunting of cougars and bear baiting? They don’t all hunt or buy licenses but they want the rules changed and they got it done. They are citizens with skin in the game.WDFW is going to have to pay for their transparency on these freedom of information requests they handle for those that understand the information is there if you just ask for it.That's an easy one to answer: if you are a citizen of the State of WA you are an equal co-owner of all the wildlife found within its borders. That's the 'skin' in the game.
I was at a town meeting with the WDFW. A guy was complaining about the elk season in his rural area. Had a petition signed by 500 people wanting the season changed. After explaining it all to David Ware, David asked if he could have the list of signatures to review. The petitioner said yes but asked why. Dave said he was going to take a sample of the names on the list and see if the even had hunting licenses or elk tags.
He said if they don’t pay into the system and participate I’m not going to put as much weight on how they think they game should be managed.
It would be really nice to know how much skin everyone has in the game that are complaining about the players and the game.
For sake of keeping this thread at least on the raffle permits...lets presume one is arguing you must buy raffle tickets to have a valid opinion on how (or IF) the raffle is conducted. My contention is that is absurd...its a public resource being raffled off and we all have equal say in how public resources are managed.
I don't need to buy a $6 raffle ticket to have an equal and valid opinion on raffling off extremely limited public resources...No more than I need to be a drunk driver to have a valid opinion on legal BAC limits for traveling a public highway.
If you’re referring to my comments, I was just trying to figure out if the guy was a disgruntled participant or just trolling us. I’ve openly voiced my displeasure in the system in years past and not participated. I wish it was capped. It could be a high cap, like 100 or 500 tickets, but I think more folks would participate if they knew people weren’t buying thousands of tickets at a time in an effort to essentially “buy” the raffle. If I could do that, I might, but I don’t have that kind of dough, and most people don’t. I also greatly appreciate, on the other hand, the $$$ those folks put back to conservation of our wildlife. Not sure how we’d have it otherwise.
Post by: Bango skank on July 08, 2019, 01:27:34 PM
Each voter in King County has the same ownership as a voter in Stevens County. While I do not like or agree with the initiative it is the prerogative of the citizens of the state to decide how their wildlife is managed. In this state, a majority do not want their bears and cats chased with hounds. Me being a hunter and not liking it does not mean my vote counts more than another citizens...however uninformed they may be. :chuckle:So you are okay with the citizens of King county voting to ban hound hunting of cougars and bear baiting? They don’t all hunt or buy licenses but they want the rules changed and they got it done. They are citizens with skin in the game.WDFW is going to have to pay for their transparency on these freedom of information requests they handle for those that understand the information is there if you just ask for it.That's an easy one to answer: if you are a citizen of the State of WA you are an equal co-owner of all the wildlife found within its borders. That's the 'skin' in the game.
I was at a town meeting with the WDFW. A guy was complaining about the elk season in his rural area. Had a petition signed by 500 people wanting the season changed. After explaining it all to David Ware, David asked if he could have the list of signatures to review. The petitioner said yes but asked why. Dave said he was going to take a sample of the names on the list and see if the even had hunting licenses or elk tags.
He said if they don’t pay into the system and participate I’m not going to put as much weight on how they think they game should be managed.
It would be really nice to know how much skin everyone has in the game that are complaining about the players and the game.
For sake of keeping this thread at least on the raffle permits...lets presume one is arguing you must buy raffle tickets to have a valid opinion on how (or IF) the raffle is conducted. My contention is that is absurd...its a public resource being raffled off and we all have equal say in how public resources are managed.
I don't need to buy a $6 raffle ticket to have an equal and valid opinion on raffling off extremely limited public resources...No more than I need to be a drunk driver to have a valid opinion on legal BAC limits for traveling a public highway.
I’ve openly voiced my displeasure in the system in years past and not participated. I wish it was capped.
I think more folks would participate if they knew people weren’t buying thousands of tickets at a time in an effort to essentially “buy” the raffle. If I could do that, I might, but I don’t have that kind of dough
So, you dont like the sysytem and wish it was capped so people couldnt dump thousands, but if you could afford to do so you might?
Basically youre saying, "i would like to be a whale but i cant afford it, so i dont want other people to be allowed to." Thats some serious integrity youre displaying there.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 08, 2019, 01:34:48 PM
Fair enough. I personally don’t like the fact that a non hunter in King County can i act legislation that overrides what the game department has decided is the best way to manage our game. In my opinion you should be more involved and more informed than just being a citizen of the state to make those kinds of decisions. Kind of like Mike Roe says, if you are not informed about the candidates don’t go out and vote based on a TV commercial that pulls at your emotions.Each voter in King County has the same ownership as a voter in Stevens County. While I do not like or agree with the initiative it is the prerogative of the citizens of the state to decide how their wildlife is managed. In this state, a majority do not want their bears and cats chased with hounds. Me being a hunter and not liking it does not mean my vote counts more than another citizens...however uninformed they may be. :chuckle:So you are okay with the citizens of King county voting to ban hound hunting of cougars and bear baiting? They don’t all hunt or buy licenses but they want the rules changed and they got it done. They are citizens with skin in the game.WDFW is going to have to pay for their transparency on these freedom of information requests they handle for those that understand the information is there if you just ask for it.That's an easy one to answer: if you are a citizen of the State of WA you are an equal co-owner of all the wildlife found within its borders. That's the 'skin' in the game.
I was at a town meeting with the WDFW. A guy was complaining about the elk season in his rural area. Had a petition signed by 500 people wanting the season changed. After explaining it all to David Ware, David asked if he could have the list of signatures to review. The petitioner said yes but asked why. Dave said he was going to take a sample of the names on the list and see if the even had hunting licenses or elk tags.
He said if they don’t pay into the system and participate I’m not going to put as much weight on how they think they game should be managed.
It would be really nice to know how much skin everyone has in the game that are complaining about the players and the game.
For sake of keeping this thread at least on the raffle permits...lets presume one is arguing you must buy raffle tickets to have a valid opinion on how (or IF) the raffle is conducted. My contention is that is absurd...its a public resource being raffled off and we all have equal say in how public resources are managed.
I don't need to buy a $6 raffle ticket to have an equal and valid opinion on raffling off extremely limited public resources...No more than I need to be a drunk driver to have a valid opinion on legal BAC limits for traveling a public highway.
Sticking with the topic, I think the raffle system does exactly what it is intended to do, generate a ton of revenue for a financially strapped agency at the very low cost, in my opinion, of a handful of big game animals.
I also believe there are way more big game animals lost to poaching than are taken by these raffle permit holders and there is no revenue generated by poaching for the department.
I think the energy to support the North American model of wildlife management and conservation should be focused on stopping the poaching before we worry about raffle permits.
If the energy in the debate over the raffle system is how to make them more fair so everyone has the same chance of winning one I will say there are definitely areas that energy should be used on in my opinion.
If the goal is for everyone to have the same chance get rid of the raffles and add the one California sheep tag back into the general draw and don’t generate the additional $74,000 that one raffle did last year.
Post by: idahohuntr on July 08, 2019, 02:35:21 PM
I think we can all agree efforts to stop poaching are worthy and good for conservation...but it is not mutually exclusive to other attacks on the NAMWC. Auctions and raffles erode at the bedrock principle that wildlife is owned by the public in that they set aside the highest quality opportunity for an exclusive few...much like the European model of wildlife management. Part of the reason raffle permits and auction tags sell for high value is because of the tight harvest limitations imposed on all the rest of the public. That eastside elk tag sells for what it does because bull harvest is extremely restricted in E. Wa...if we continue on with programs that cater to the privileged few at the expense of the rest of the public...well, lets just say I don't like the idea of going down the road of European game management and hunting.Fair enough. I personally don’t like the fact that a non hunter in King County can i act legislation that overrides what the game department has decided is the best way to manage our game. In my opinion you should be more involved and more informed than just being a citizen of the state to make those kinds of decisions. Kind of like Mike Roe says, if you are not informed about the candidates don’t go out and vote based on a TV commercial that pulls at your emotions.Each voter in King County has the same ownership as a voter in Stevens County. While I do not like or agree with the initiative it is the prerogative of the citizens of the state to decide how their wildlife is managed. In this state, a majority do not want their bears and cats chased with hounds. Me being a hunter and not liking it does not mean my vote counts more than another citizens...however uninformed they may be. :chuckle:So you are okay with the citizens of King county voting to ban hound hunting of cougars and bear baiting? They don’t all hunt or buy licenses but they want the rules changed and they got it done. They are citizens with skin in the game.WDFW is going to have to pay for their transparency on these freedom of information requests they handle for those that understand the information is there if you just ask for it.That's an easy one to answer: if you are a citizen of the State of WA you are an equal co-owner of all the wildlife found within its borders. That's the 'skin' in the game.
I was at a town meeting with the WDFW. A guy was complaining about the elk season in his rural area. Had a petition signed by 500 people wanting the season changed. After explaining it all to David Ware, David asked if he could have the list of signatures to review. The petitioner said yes but asked why. Dave said he was going to take a sample of the names on the list and see if the even had hunting licenses or elk tags.
He said if they don’t pay into the system and participate I’m not going to put as much weight on how they think they game should be managed.
It would be really nice to know how much skin everyone has in the game that are complaining about the players and the game.
For sake of keeping this thread at least on the raffle permits...lets presume one is arguing you must buy raffle tickets to have a valid opinion on how (or IF) the raffle is conducted. My contention is that is absurd...its a public resource being raffled off and we all have equal say in how public resources are managed.
I don't need to buy a $6 raffle ticket to have an equal and valid opinion on raffling off extremely limited public resources...No more than I need to be a drunk driver to have a valid opinion on legal BAC limits for traveling a public highway.
Sticking with the topic, I think the raffle system does exactly what it is intended to do, generate a ton of revenue for a financially strapped agency at the very low cost, in my opinion, of a handful of big game animals.
I also believe there are way more big game animals lost to poaching than are taken by these raffle permit holders and there is no revenue generated by poaching for the department.
I think the energy to support the North American model of wildlife management and conservation should be focused on stopping the poaching before we worry about raffle permits.
If the energy in the debate over the raffle system is how to make them more fair so everyone has the same chance of winning one I will say there are definitely areas that energy should be used on in my opinion.
If the goal is for everyone to have the same chance get rid of the raffles and add the one California sheep tag back into the general draw and don’t generate the additional $74,000 that one raffle did last year.
However, the pragmatic side of me says, well, what's one sheep or elk given the revenue it generates? And for me, it comes down to two things:
1. WDFW is awful at using money effectively. While their budget is restricted and its not just one big checking account to use as they please, they still have a very large budget and I do not believe for one second that critical and valuable projects would go to the way side if they didn't bring in $74k from any given raffle. Fire one wolf facilitator and put each of those raffle and auction tags in the regular draw...there...revenue neutral.
2. Perhaps more importantly, in principle I don't support erosion of the NAMWC and that's exactly what auction/raffle tags do...no matter how well the money is spent nor how generous and well meaning the buyer is.
And to be clear...I have no criticism towards any of the folks buying raffle tickets or auction tags. Those folks are playing by the established rules...my discontent is with WDFW commission for allowing such a game to exist...they are not being good stewards of precious public resources. Like jackelope, if I had the means and the state refused to eliminate auctions/raffles...I'd probably be first in line to buy tags and wheelbarrows of tickets.
Post by: jackelope on July 08, 2019, 02:42:53 PM
Each voter in King County has the same ownership as a voter in Stevens County. While I do not like or agree with the initiative it is the prerogative of the citizens of the state to decide how their wildlife is managed. In this state, a majority do not want their bears and cats chased with hounds. Me being a hunter and not liking it does not mean my vote counts more than another citizens...however uninformed they may be. :chuckle:So you are okay with the citizens of King county voting to ban hound hunting of cougars and bear baiting? They don’t all hunt or buy licenses but they want the rules changed and they got it done. They are citizens with skin in the game.WDFW is going to have to pay for their transparency on these freedom of information requests they handle for those that understand the information is there if you just ask for it.That's an easy one to answer: if you are a citizen of the State of WA you are an equal co-owner of all the wildlife found within its borders. That's the 'skin' in the game.
I was at a town meeting with the WDFW. A guy was complaining about the elk season in his rural area. Had a petition signed by 500 people wanting the season changed. After explaining it all to David Ware, David asked if he could have the list of signatures to review. The petitioner said yes but asked why. Dave said he was going to take a sample of the names on the list and see if the even had hunting licenses or elk tags.
He said if they don’t pay into the system and participate I’m not going to put as much weight on how they think they game should be managed.
It would be really nice to know how much skin everyone has in the game that are complaining about the players and the game.
For sake of keeping this thread at least on the raffle permits...lets presume one is arguing you must buy raffle tickets to have a valid opinion on how (or IF) the raffle is conducted. My contention is that is absurd...its a public resource being raffled off and we all have equal say in how public resources are managed.
I don't need to buy a $6 raffle ticket to have an equal and valid opinion on raffling off extremely limited public resources...No more than I need to be a drunk driver to have a valid opinion on legal BAC limits for traveling a public highway.
I’ve openly voiced my displeasure in the system in years past and not participated. I wish it was capped.
I think more folks would participate if they knew people weren’t buying thousands of tickets at a time in an effort to essentially “buy” the raffle. If I could do that, I might, but I don’t have that kind of dough
So, you dont like the sysytem and wish it was capped so people couldnt dump thousands, but if you could afford to do so you might?
Basically youre saying, "i would like to be a whale but i cant afford it, so i dont want other people to be allowed to." Thats some serious integrity youre displaying there.
Sort of the way it came out I guess. I’d really prefer everyone had a legit chance. If this current system was the way it had to be and I could afford it, I would dive in but I’d like to see it changed if I had a choice. I don’t dislike the people who do it because they can. Probably isn’t coming out right I guess.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 08, 2019, 02:57:45 PM
Thanks for the clarification. I can totally see where you are coming from. I think you have very valid points.I think we can all agree efforts to stop poaching are worthy and good for conservation...but it is not mutually exclusive to other attacks on the NAMWC. Auctions and raffles erode at the bedrock principle that wildlife is owned by the public in that they set aside the highest quality opportunity for an exclusive few...much like the European model of wildlife management. Part of the reason raffle permits and auction tags sell for high value is because of the tight harvest limitations imposed on all the rest of the public. That eastside elk tag sells for what it does because bull harvest is extremely restricted in E. Wa...if we continue on with programs that cater to the privileged few at the expense of the rest of the public...well, lets just say I don't like the idea of going down the road of European game management and hunting.Fair enough. I personally don’t like the fact that a non hunter in King County can i act legislation that overrides what the game department has decided is the best way to manage our game. In my opinion you should be more involved and more informed than just being a citizen of the state to make those kinds of decisions. Kind of like Mike Roe says, if you are not informed about the candidates don’t go out and vote based on a TV commercial that pulls at your emotions.Each voter in King County has the same ownership as a voter in Stevens County. While I do not like or agree with the initiative it is the prerogative of the citizens of the state to decide how their wildlife is managed. In this state, a majority do not want their bears and cats chased with hounds. Me being a hunter and not liking it does not mean my vote counts more than another citizens...however uninformed they may be. :chuckle:So you are okay with the citizens of King county voting to ban hound hunting of cougars and bear baiting? They don’t all hunt or buy licenses but they want the rules changed and they got it done. They are citizens with skin in the game.WDFW is going to have to pay for their transparency on these freedom of information requests they handle for those that understand the information is there if you just ask for it.That's an easy one to answer: if you are a citizen of the State of WA you are an equal co-owner of all the wildlife found within its borders. That's the 'skin' in the game.
I was at a town meeting with the WDFW. A guy was complaining about the elk season in his rural area. Had a petition signed by 500 people wanting the season changed. After explaining it all to David Ware, David asked if he could have the list of signatures to review. The petitioner said yes but asked why. Dave said he was going to take a sample of the names on the list and see if the even had hunting licenses or elk tags.
He said if they don’t pay into the system and participate I’m not going to put as much weight on how they think they game should be managed.
It would be really nice to know how much skin everyone has in the game that are complaining about the players and the game.
For sake of keeping this thread at least on the raffle permits...lets presume one is arguing you must buy raffle tickets to have a valid opinion on how (or IF) the raffle is conducted. My contention is that is absurd...its a public resource being raffled off and we all have equal say in how public resources are managed.
I don't need to buy a $6 raffle ticket to have an equal and valid opinion on raffling off extremely limited public resources...No more than I need to be a drunk driver to have a valid opinion on legal BAC limits for traveling a public highway.
Sticking with the topic, I think the raffle system does exactly what it is intended to do, generate a ton of revenue for a financially strapped agency at the very low cost, in my opinion, of a handful of big game animals.
I also believe there are way more big game animals lost to poaching than are taken by these raffle permit holders and there is no revenue generated by poaching for the department.
I think the energy to support the North American model of wildlife management and conservation should be focused on stopping the poaching before we worry about raffle permits.
If the energy in the debate over the raffle system is how to make them more fair so everyone has the same chance of winning one I will say there are definitely areas that energy should be used on in my opinion.
If the goal is for everyone to have the same chance get rid of the raffles and add the one California sheep tag back into the general draw and don’t generate the additional $74,000 that one raffle did last year.
However, the pragmatic side of me says, well, what's one sheep or elk given the revenue it generates? And for me, it comes down to two things:
1. WDFW is awful at using money effectively. While their budget is restricted and its not just one big checking account to use as they please, they still have a very large budget and I do not believe for one second that critical and valuable projects would go to the way side if they didn't bring in $74k from any given raffle. Fire one wolf facilitator and put each of those raffle and auction tags in the regular draw...there...revenue neutral.
2. Perhaps more importantly, in principle I don't support erosion of the NAMWC and that's exactly what auction/raffle tags do...no matter how well the money is spent nor how generous and well meaning the buyer is.
And to be clear...I have no criticism towards any of the folks buying raffle tickets or auction tags. Those folks are playing by the established rules...my discontent is with WDFW commission for allowing such a game to exist...they are not being good stewards of precious public resources. Like jackelope, if I had the means and the state refused to eliminate auctions/raffles...I'd probably be first in line to buy tags and wheelbarrows of tickets.
Post by: idaho guy on July 08, 2019, 03:00:18 PM
Each voter in King County has the same ownership as a voter in Stevens County. While I do not like or agree with the initiative it is the prerogative of the citizens of the state to decide how their wildlife is managed. In this state, a majority do not want their bears and cats chased with hounds. Me being a hunter and not liking it does not mean my vote counts more than another citizens...however uninformed they may be. :chuckle:So you are okay with the citizens of King county voting to ban hound hunting of cougars and bear baiting? They don’t all hunt or buy licenses but they want the rules changed and they got it done. They are citizens with skin in the game.WDFW is going to have to pay for their transparency on these freedom of information requests they handle for those that understand the information is there if you just ask for it.That's an easy one to answer: if you are a citizen of the State of WA you are an equal co-owner of all the wildlife found within its borders. That's the 'skin' in the game.
I was at a town meeting with the WDFW. A guy was complaining about the elk season in his rural area. Had a petition signed by 500 people wanting the season changed. After explaining it all to David Ware, David asked if he could have the list of signatures to review. The petitioner said yes but asked why. Dave said he was going to take a sample of the names on the list and see if the even had hunting licenses or elk tags.
He said if they don’t pay into the system and participate I’m not going to put as much weight on how they think they game should be managed.
It would be really nice to know how much skin everyone has in the game that are complaining about the players and the game.
For sake of keeping this thread at least on the raffle permits...lets presume one is arguing you must buy raffle tickets to have a valid opinion on how (or IF) the raffle is conducted. My contention is that is absurd...its a public resource being raffled off and we all have equal say in how public resources are managed.
I don't need to buy a $6 raffle ticket to have an equal and valid opinion on raffling off extremely limited public resources...No more than I need to be a drunk driver to have a valid opinion on legal BAC limits for traveling a public highway.
I’ve openly voiced my displeasure in the system in years past and not participated. I wish it was capped.
I think more folks would participate if they knew people weren’t buying thousands of tickets at a time in an effort to essentially “buy” the raffle. If I could do that, I might, but I don’t have that kind of dough
So, you dont like the sysytem and wish it was capped so people couldnt dump thousands, but if you could afford to do so you might?
Basically youre saying, "i would like to be a whale but i cant afford it, so i dont want other people to be allowed to." Thats some serious integrity youre displaying there.
Sort of the way it came out I guess. I’d really prefer everyone had a legit chance. If this current system was the way it had to be and I could afford it, I would dive in but I’d like to see it changed if I had a choice. I don’t dislike the people who do it because they can. Probably isn’t coming out right I guess.
I didn't think it came out that way. I feel the same way there are rules I would like changed but if they are the rules I will still take advantage of the opportunity if I can. I don't necessarily like the two deer tags option in Idaho either but I have purchased a second deer and elk tag :dunno: maybe I lack integrity too :chuckle: I don't feel bad about it I am following the rules but if I had a choice it would be better if they didn't offer the second deer or elk. My take on what you said was if you had the excess dough you might flood the raffle but regardless you think it would be better if it was capped? Doesn't matter if you can afford it or not just a better system if its capped in your opinion. I don't really care what they do with raffles but will buy a few tickets.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 08, 2019, 03:03:18 PM
Some of the numbers are high sales already this year, close to normal sales for previous years. By the end of the week they will be high and close to historically normal levels because big money is seeing a value in gambling to win on low ticket sales.
Post by: teanawayslayer on July 08, 2019, 03:27:25 PM
Post by: idaho guy on July 08, 2019, 03:39:10 PM
I think we can all agree efforts to stop poaching are worthy and good for conservation...but it is not mutually exclusive to other attacks on the NAMWC. Auctions and raffles erode at the bedrock principle that wildlife is owned by the public in that they set aside the highest quality opportunity for an exclusive few...much like the European model of wildlife management. Part of the reason raffle permits and auction tags sell for high value is because of the tight harvest limitations imposed on all the rest of the public. That eastside elk tag sells for what it does because bull harvest is extremely restricted in E. Wa...if we continue on with programs that cater to the privileged few at the expense of the rest of the public...well, lets just say I don't like the idea of going down the road of European game management and hunting.Fair enough. I personally don’t like the fact that a non hunter in King County can i act legislation that overrides what the game department has decided is the best way to manage our game. In my opinion you should be more involved and more informed than just being a citizen of the state to make those kinds of decisions. Kind of like Mike Roe says, if you are not informed about the candidates don’t go out and vote based on a TV commercial that pulls at your emotions.Each voter in King County has the same ownership as a voter in Stevens County. While I do not like or agree with the initiative it is the prerogative of the citizens of the state to decide how their wildlife is managed. In this state, a majority do not want their bears and cats chased with hounds. Me being a hunter and not liking it does not mean my vote counts more than another citizens...however uninformed they may be. :chuckle:So you are okay with the citizens of King county voting to ban hound hunting of cougars and bear baiting? They don’t all hunt or buy licenses but they want the rules changed and they got it done. They are citizens with skin in the game.WDFW is going to have to pay for their transparency on these freedom of information requests they handle for those that understand the information is there if you just ask for it.That's an easy one to answer: if you are a citizen of the State of WA you are an equal co-owner of all the wildlife found within its borders. That's the 'skin' in the game.
I was at a town meeting with the WDFW. A guy was complaining about the elk season in his rural area. Had a petition signed by 500 people wanting the season changed. After explaining it all to David Ware, David asked if he could have the list of signatures to review. The petitioner said yes but asked why. Dave said he was going to take a sample of the names on the list and see if the even had hunting licenses or elk tags.
He said if they don’t pay into the system and participate I’m not going to put as much weight on how they think they game should be managed.
It would be really nice to know how much skin everyone has in the game that are complaining about the players and the game.
For sake of keeping this thread at least on the raffle permits...lets presume one is arguing you must buy raffle tickets to have a valid opinion on how (or IF) the raffle is conducted. My contention is that is absurd...its a public resource being raffled off and we all have equal say in how public resources are managed.
I don't need to buy a $6 raffle ticket to have an equal and valid opinion on raffling off extremely limited public resources...No more than I need to be a drunk driver to have a valid opinion on legal BAC limits for traveling a public highway.
Sticking with the topic, I think the raffle system does exactly what it is intended to do, generate a ton of revenue for a financially strapped agency at the very low cost, in my opinion, of a handful of big game animals.
I also believe there are way more big game animals lost to poaching than are taken by these raffle permit holders and there is no revenue generated by poaching for the department.
I think the energy to support the North American model of wildlife management and conservation should be focused on stopping the poaching before we worry about raffle permits.
If the energy in the debate over the raffle system is how to make them more fair so everyone has the same chance of winning one I will say there are definitely areas that energy should be used on in my opinion.
If the goal is for everyone to have the same chance get rid of the raffles and add the one California sheep tag back into the general draw and don’t generate the additional $74,000 that one raffle did last year.
However, the pragmatic side of me says, well, what's one sheep or elk given the revenue it generates? And for me, it comes down to two things:
1. WDFW is awful at using money effectively. While their budget is restricted and its not just one big checking account to use as they please, they still have a very large budget and I do not believe for one second that critical and valuable projects would go to the way side if they didn't bring in $74k from any given raffle. Fire one wolf facilitator and put each of those raffle and auction tags in the regular draw...there...revenue neutral.
2. Perhaps more importantly, in principle I don't support erosion of the NAMWC and that's exactly what auction/raffle tags do...no matter how well the money is spent nor how generous and well meaning the buyer is.
And to be clear...I have no criticism towards any of the folks buying raffle tickets or auction tags. Those folks are playing by the established rules...my discontent is with WDFW commission for allowing such a game to exist...they are not being good stewards of precious public resources. Like jackelope, if I had the means and the state refused to eliminate auctions/raffles...I'd probably be first in line to buy tags and wheelbarrows of tickets.
I agree with Idahohunter on this one. I don't get to say that very often :chuckle:
Post by: Woodchuck on July 08, 2019, 04:05:47 PM
Everything looks right at where it should be for the time frame. The only one that looks low in numbers is the moose. Some high some low changes year to year depending on which whale wants what.You hush up. :chuckle:
Post by: teanawayslayer on July 08, 2019, 04:10:28 PM
hahaha. Sorry bud! I invested a few bucks into it myself. All it takes is to get lucky. :tup:Everything looks right at where it should be for the time frame. The only one that looks low in numbers is the moose. Some high some low changes year to year depending on which whale wants what.You hush up. :chuckle:
Post by: Rainier10 on July 08, 2019, 04:12:13 PM
Post by: HillHound on July 08, 2019, 04:17:25 PM
Post by: teanawayslayer on July 08, 2019, 04:18:07 PM
Post by: Woodchuck on July 08, 2019, 04:37:02 PM
Apparently I am stopping by and picking some more up tonight. :chuckle:hahaha. Sorry bud! I invested a few bucks into it myself. All it takes is to get lucky. :tup:Everything looks right at where it should be for the time frame. The only one that looks low in numbers is the moose. Some high some low changes year to year depending on which whale wants what.You hush up. :chuckle:
Good luck man, somebody has to win it. :tup:
Post by: Woodchuck on July 09, 2019, 09:11:10 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on July 09, 2019, 09:16:50 AM
They may as well just send me the permit now. I went all in last night. Skipped rent, pawned the Satellite, refinanced the dog, I went ALL in.Looks like you at least spread out your money, $8,500 on the south central combo and $7,200 on the eastern elk. Smart move, wouldn't want to put all your eggs in one basket. :tup:
Post by: Ghost Hunter on July 09, 2019, 07:54:10 PM
Post by: Bango skank on July 16, 2019, 12:00:53 AM
Post by: Ridgerunner on July 16, 2019, 06:55:40 AM
Post by: Bango skank on July 16, 2019, 07:09:23 AM
Post by: yogru on July 16, 2019, 07:15:29 AM
Post by: Bango skank on July 16, 2019, 07:18:35 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on July 16, 2019, 08:33:40 AM
My guess is updates might be a little late today. I am thinking there was some big money dumped last night and they are double and triple checking counts. SC, NC and sheep were all way below last years sales by a lot as of yesterday morning. If not somebody got some good odds on those tags.
Post by: Bango skank on July 16, 2019, 08:35:47 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on July 16, 2019, 08:46:13 AM
https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,229221.105.html
Post by: Rainier10 on July 16, 2019, 09:11:36 AM
https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,230082.0.html
Hopefully a member here hits one of the raffles and takes everyone along for the ride.
Post by: Duckhunter14 on July 16, 2019, 11:32:44 AM
Post by: benhuntin on July 16, 2019, 12:24:40 PM
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Post by: huntnphool on July 16, 2019, 12:29:43 PM
Post by: Bushcraft on July 16, 2019, 12:31:51 PM
My inside contact just looked at the numbers and told me I didn't draw any raffle tags this year. :bash:
Sigh...next year. :'(
Post by: yogru on July 16, 2019, 12:39:21 PM
Post by: HillHound on July 16, 2019, 12:44:53 PM
Post by: Bushcraft on July 16, 2019, 12:45:42 PM
Tell your contact to draw them again until you get one :tup:
Oh, believe me...he would if he could. :chuckle:
Post by: Rainier10 on July 16, 2019, 01:53:53 PM
Post by: Bango skank on July 16, 2019, 04:51:39 PM
Post by: HillHound on July 16, 2019, 04:56:50 PM
Post by: greenhead_killer on July 16, 2019, 05:11:24 PM
Post by: Bango skank on July 16, 2019, 07:05:14 PM
Post by: benhuntin on July 16, 2019, 08:19:16 PM
So who do i need to call and harrass tomorrow to get the final sales posted?Forget the sales, get the results!!
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Post by: steeleywhopper on July 16, 2019, 10:00:54 PM
So who do i need to call and harrass tomorrow to get the final sales posted?Forget the sales, get the results!!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Results please! :tup:
Post by: zwickeyman on July 17, 2019, 05:24:15 AM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on July 17, 2019, 07:09:56 AM
Where do you find your numbers on the website, I just see I purchased tickets
On your receipt? I haven't found them on website.
Post by: Bango skank on July 17, 2019, 08:45:03 AM
Post by: kselkhunter on July 17, 2019, 08:45:58 AM
But I kept my receipt from Sportsmans when I bought the raffle tickets, and the raffle numbers for my tickets are on my receipt.
The updated raffles page says winners will be notified by mail and phone by mid-August.
Post by: Bushcraft on July 17, 2019, 09:05:33 AM
That's a fact.
Post by: Ridgerunner on July 17, 2019, 09:10:14 AM
Post by: kselkhunter on July 17, 2019, 09:16:17 AM
somebody really wanted goat bad.:yeah:
And east side elk.
I was surprised NE WA combo ticket was so low at only 1222.
Post by: benhuntin on July 17, 2019, 09:54:27 AM
There's a way you can determine right now if you aren't going to get drawn.Can you tell me? I won’t tell anyone
That's a fact.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Rainier10 on July 17, 2019, 10:10:09 AM
:hello: I can. :peep:There's a way you can determine right now if you aren't going to get drawn.Can you tell me? I won’t tell anyone
That's a fact.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If you didn't buy a ticket you didn't win. You can be 100% sure of that.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 17, 2019, 10:19:08 AM
The raffle results page states to look up all your raffle tickets in the online ticketing system. I can see the raffle ticket sales history online in my account, but the number for each raffle ticket isn't listed on that page.
But I kept my receipt from Sportsmans when I bought the raffle tickets, and the raffle numbers for my tickets are on my receipt.
The updated raffles page says winners will be notified by mail and phone by mid-August.
So last year was a bit of a mess. Results page came online and people could check there numbers and then it went down. After a day or two they got the results page up for good. You could call in and give them your name, they looked at the list of 13 categories and say if you were on that list or not. One member here didn't find out until after the results page was up and he saw he had drawn west elk. Not sure if he got a phone call from WDFW after that or if he called them to confirm before they called him.
Last year it was all done by August 1st.
The delay in getting the sales results posted has me concerned that the draw results will be delayed as well but who knows.
With the kind of cash that was spent in the last 24 hours I am sure they are checking and double checking everything.
Post by: Bushcraft on July 17, 2019, 11:00:16 AM
Post by: HillHound on July 17, 2019, 12:18:39 PM
Post by: WAcoueshunter on July 17, 2019, 02:14:31 PM
somebody really wanted goat bad.
No kidding, almost $36K for goat. Conversely, moose looks like it was a good deal, only $28,752 raised, so about $14K per winning ticket.
Also find it interesting that the CA sheep tag and north central almost had the same amount raised. Both are for a good sheep tag, but the north central just happens to have a bonus 200 series mule deer tag that comes along with it!
Post by: jackelope on July 17, 2019, 02:30:15 PM
somebody really wanted goat bad.
No kidding, almost $36K for goat. Conversely, moose looks like it was a good deal, only $28,752 raised, so about $14K per winning ticket.
Also find it interesting that the CA sheep tag and north central almost had the same amount raised. Both are for a good sheep tag, but the north central just happens to have a bonus 200 series mule deer tag that comes along with it!
There was more than 1 heavy hitter in the mountain goat raffle.
Somebody new decided on the last day they wanted it really bad though, that's a fact.
Post by: Bango skank on July 17, 2019, 04:42:48 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on July 17, 2019, 06:44:02 PM
Post by: Bango skank on July 17, 2019, 07:17:56 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on July 17, 2019, 07:39:32 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on July 17, 2019, 07:49:41 PM
I think there are probably a ton a different reasons guys do it. Everyone probably has a different reason.
Rifle guys wonder why I mess around with a bow. Archery guys wonder why rifle guys don’t get closer and use a bow. Each has a different reason for why they hunt the way they do.
Post by: Dan-o on July 17, 2019, 07:59:33 PM
I have 25% odds on the whitetail tag. or if youre a glass half empty kind of guy, i have 75% odds that i threw a bunch of money away.
LOL
Not that it will help, but I really hope you get it.
something tells me you'd do justice to it.
Love your trail cam stuff.
Post by: idahohuntr on July 17, 2019, 08:08:20 PM
A raffle tag gives you every season to huntThis.
The freedom of such a tag is a big plus. Personally, I dont think I would enjoy a guided hunt at all...but premium tags, access fees etc. that still allow a DIY hunt would be awesome.
Post by: Bango skank on July 17, 2019, 08:16:54 PM
not trying to be a dick here, but I’m always curious why guys who dump thousands trying to draw just don’t buy a really good guided hunt? Wouldn’t a Canadian rut hunt get you a monster whitetail?
I see a guided hunt like that as just being a trigger puller, i wouldnt feel i earned it. i dont just want to kill a big buck, i want to locate, scout, learn the habits of a big buck, then kill him. More of an accomplishment than paying to go sit a blind over a bait pile on some private property youve never even laid eyes on. I have a number of good bucks on my radar, but the one i want the most isnt even the biggest. I have a bit of history with him from last year, several very close calls, bow drawn on him twice, got his sheds etc. This year i intend to hang him on the wall next to his 2018 sheds.
Post by: trophyhunt on July 17, 2019, 08:52:53 PM
makes sense to me, best of luck to you! I’d say your a blessed man, sounds like it would be a great story and well earned.not trying to be a dick here, but I’m always curious why guys who dump thousands trying to draw just don’t buy a really good guided hunt? Wouldn’t a Canadian rut hunt get you a monster whitetail?
I see a guided hunt like that as just being a trigger puller, i wouldnt feel i earned it. i dont just want to kill a big buck, i want to locate, scout, learn the habits of a big buck, then kill him. More of an accomplishment than paying to go sit a blind over a bait pile on some private property youve never even laid eyes on. I have a number of good bucks on my radar, but the one i want the most isnt even the biggest. I have a bit of history with him from last year, several very close calls, bow drawn on him twice, got his sheds etc. This year i intend to hang him on the wall next to his 2018 sheds.
Post by: Bushcraft on July 17, 2019, 09:01:46 PM
not trying to be a dick here, but I’m always curious why guys who dump thousands trying to draw just don’t buy a really good guided hunt? Wouldn’t a Canadian rut hunt get you a monster whitetail?
With rare exception, guided hunts seem to always have that "hurry-up golf" feel to them. There's a short, finite window of time you're essentially renting from someone else and you're at the mercy of a lot of different variables, not the least of which could be the ability and/or motivation of the outfitter and/or his guides that could rob you of that time. Rain, wind, snow, drought, sleet, unusually hot temps, unusually cold temps, migration timing, moon phases, issues with pack stock, issues with aircraft, issues with boats, other hunters screwing up stalks, you screwing up stalks, the guide screwing up stalks, powerlessness of the nearest witch doctor, shaman or rain dancer ( :chuckle: ), etc.
There's just a lot of variables with a guided hunt that aren't under your control that usually are if you're a DIY guy...and sometimes you can't do a whole heck of a lot about 'em. Don't believe me? Write a check for $45K for a stone sheep hunt and head out in the bush of Northern BC with some horse wranglers that don't actually know much of anything about hunting sheep or highcountry backpack hunting for 15 days and not even see a ram...and then get back with me. Trust me. It SUCKS watching the sands of time slip through the hour glass and you can't do a damn thing about it but bite your tongue, try and help keep camp morale up and make do the best you can.
And, perhaps most importantly, unless you want to pony up some extra cash for a friend or family member to come along (assuming they can get the vacation time)...it's just you and the guide(s).
That's not to say that guides are a bad way to go at all. There are some awesome guides and outfitters out there that are totally squared away and run some tight ships that I wouldn't hesitate to go with again.
But for me, winning a raffle is a chance to find, and specifically target, an old, old sheep, goat, moose, buck or bull elk in this state. And, do it with my friends with the luxury of time over the entire course of summer scouting (or years leading up to when you can buy the G-Tag or win a raffle or special permit application) and maybe different hunting trips in the fall and maybe film some or all of it to enjoy with them in the future. It's about buying the chance for some awesome memories to add to your and their life story(s).
And I don't want to sound flippant about it, but some extra money is not all that hard to scrape together if a guy is willing to work his butt off for it....AND it's kind of a sad one-dimensional unit of measure anyway.
Friendships on the other hand...well, solid bonds with truly exceptional people that make you want to be a better human being...and who are ready, able, and willing to put forth as much pain, sweat and tears as you to help accomplish a goal together...even when they don't even have the tag...and you'd leap at the opportunity to do the same for them....those relationships are FAR more precious than any currency.
:twocents:
Post by: Bushcraft on July 17, 2019, 09:03:01 PM
not trying to be a dick here, but I’m always curious why guys who dump thousands trying to draw just don’t buy a really good guided hunt? Wouldn’t a Canadian rut hunt get you a monster whitetail?
I see a guided hunt like that as just being a trigger puller, i wouldnt feel i earned it. i dont just want to kill a big buck, i want to locate, scout, learn the habits of a big buck, then kill him. More of an accomplishment than paying to go sit a blind over a bait pile on some private property youve never even laid eyes on. I have a number of good bucks on my radar, but the one i want the most isnt even the biggest. I have a bit of history with him from last year, several very close calls, bow drawn on him twice, got his sheds etc. This year i intend to hang him on the wall next to his 2018 sheds.
Bingo Bango. Good luck man.
Post by: Gringo31 on July 17, 2019, 09:12:50 PM
I wish you the very best. :tup:
Post by: teanawayslayer on July 17, 2019, 09:16:57 PM
Well said bushcraft! You hit the nail on the head with this statement
Post by: Rainier10 on July 17, 2019, 10:44:06 PM
Post by: jackelope on July 18, 2019, 10:37:08 AM
I asked the same question a few years back. One of the answers I got, from an actual guy who spends a bunch of $$ on this stuff, was that he's not able to leave his business for weeks at a time. These hunts here on their home turf allow them to hunt for a weekend or a day or 2 here and there over the course of a few months.
My point is there's a bunch of reasons. Different strokes for different folks. If I was in their shoes, I'd be in it for Bango's reasons he mentioned. Pretty much nails it down for me.
Post by: kselkhunter on July 18, 2019, 11:13:24 AM
Similar math on the sheep and goat tags when considering costs of auction tags or Canadian stone sheep hunts. And the even longer odds on those special permits for somebody with low point totals. I'm surprised that only $36K was spent on goat and $42K on sheep for the totals. Would have expected more.
Post by: trophyhunt on July 18, 2019, 11:16:24 AM
Post by: Woodchuck on July 18, 2019, 11:25:37 AM
I hear ya Josh and agree, I completely understand the reasons. Just hard to imagine when you don’t have the money. If I was rich, I’d definitely buy a bunch of tickets!I am in for minimal money in the grand scheme of things and can tell you that my odds are WAY better in the raffle than the regular draw. :twocents:
Post by: Rainier10 on July 18, 2019, 12:17:38 PM
FYI I was a witness to the regular draw this year and was 21,932 on the list of not selected's, that sucked.
Post by: trophyhunt on July 18, 2019, 01:34:51 PM
I have said this before and those in the raffle may be pissed but it's not that hard to just save a few bucks a day, $40-$90 a month can get you $1,000 by the end of the year. Throw that in the raffle and you have stellar odds compared to the regular draw system. I put $1,200 in the east elk last year and got ticket #9. Close but no cigar. The nice thing or the bad thing is you can see how close you were. You don't get that with the regular draw unless you are a witness.I’m not sure knowing is good, when I witnessed I was the first loser of a draw with 7 tags! Last year I put in about 40$ For the west side elk and drew 3rd or 4th! So close! I would buy a lot more tickets in the past when you could do it on line, usually bought a couple every payday, miss those days.
FYI I was a witness to the regular draw this year and was 21,932 on the list of not selected's, that sucked.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 18, 2019, 02:06:57 PM
I get the reason that they had to move it to in store purchases only but I think it did hurt the sales a bit at first. Sales seemed pretty strong this year in most categories.I have said this before and those in the raffle may be pissed but it's not that hard to just save a few bucks a day, $40-$90 a month can get you $1,000 by the end of the year. Throw that in the raffle and you have stellar odds compared to the regular draw system. I put $1,200 in the east elk last year and got ticket #9. Close but no cigar. The nice thing or the bad thing is you can see how close you were. You don't get that with the regular draw unless you are a witness.I’m not sure knowing is good, when I witnessed I was the first loser of a draw with 7 tags! Last year I put in about 40$ For the west side elk and drew 3rd or 4th! So close! I would buy a lot more tickets in the past when you could do it on line, usually bought a couple every payday, miss those days.
FYI I was a witness to the regular draw this year and was 21,932 on the list of not selected's, that sucked.
Post by: trophyhunt on July 18, 2019, 02:20:45 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on July 18, 2019, 02:29:18 PM
Post by: gee_unit360 on July 18, 2019, 05:13:26 PM
I have said this before and those in the raffle may be pissed but it's not that hard to just save a few bucks a day, $40-$90 a month can get you $1,000 by the end of the year. Throw that in the raffle and you have stellar odds compared to the regular draw system. I put $1,200 in the east elk last year and got ticket #9. Close but no cigar. The nice thing or the bad thing is you can see how close you were. You don't get that with the regular draw unless you are a witness.
FYI I was a witness to the regular draw this year and was 21,932 on the list of not selected's, that sucked.
How do they determine who gets to be a witness?
Post by: Bango skank on July 18, 2019, 09:30:54 PM
Post by: teanawayslayer on July 18, 2019, 09:37:39 PM
I have said this before and those in the raffle may be pissed but it's not that hard to just save a few bucks a day, $40-$90 a month can get you $1,000 by the end of the year. Throw that in the raffle and you have stellar odds compared to the regular draw system. I put $1,200 in the east elk last year and got ticket #9. Close but no cigar. The nice thing or the bad thing is you can see how close you were. You don't get that with the regular draw unless you are a witness.the only place second place matters in the moose raffle. Other than that I would rather come in at 5000 than number two in any of the other raffles. Last year 3100 bucks into it and all I had to show was a last place 5th. Not even checking this year. If I’m lucky I will get a phone call if not we know how it went. :twocents:
FYI I was a witness to the regular draw this year and was 21,932 on the list of not selected's, that sucked.
Post by: Bushcraft on July 18, 2019, 10:00:56 PM
Post by: Bango skank on July 19, 2019, 03:46:29 AM
Post by: ctwiggs1 on July 19, 2019, 05:18:05 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on July 19, 2019, 07:25:46 AM
It’s usually a link from the licensing site. If I recall correctly, it shows up at the login screen after the draw.:yeah:
It's not there yet. It won't come online until after the draw is complete is my guess. Just a guess, no inside knowledge.
Post by: Ghost Hunter on July 21, 2019, 08:10:33 AM
Post by: Bango skank on July 22, 2019, 04:50:49 AM
Post by: Gringo31 on July 22, 2019, 03:47:55 PM
Post by: Bango skank on July 22, 2019, 04:13:16 PM
No need to check....on here maybe but they'll call you.
I know theyll call. Still cant help myself.
Post by: Bango skank on July 24, 2019, 06:16:26 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on July 24, 2019, 06:23:26 AM
Post by: ctwiggs1 on July 24, 2019, 06:59:40 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on July 24, 2019, 08:12:54 AM
Post by: ctwiggs1 on July 24, 2019, 08:48:56 AM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on July 24, 2019, 09:14:10 AM
Post by: HillHound on July 24, 2019, 03:25:16 PM
Post by: Bango skank on July 24, 2019, 03:28:57 PM
Post by: jjhunter on July 24, 2019, 04:05:01 PM
DNRY. Feel like im in purgatory right now. Waiting on raffle results. Waiting on bear opener. Waiting on full antler growth to check cams. Waiting waiting waiting. I need me a delorean and a flux capacitor.
Good luck; you definitely put the time in to do the tag justice!
Post by: MtnMuley on July 24, 2019, 07:03:06 PM
Post by: Bango skank on July 24, 2019, 07:03:59 PM
Some winners have been notified already.
Thats what i heard. Any idea if the whitetail winner has been called yet?
Post by: benhuntin on July 24, 2019, 07:08:49 PM
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Post by: trophyhunt on July 24, 2019, 07:13:16 PM
Post by: ctwiggs1 on July 24, 2019, 07:54:06 PM
Post by: benhuntin on July 24, 2019, 08:06:00 PM
Moose tags!! I got a moose tag :chuckle:So do I, but I would like another one.
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Post by: trophyhunt on July 24, 2019, 08:22:51 PM
very nice! Good luck!Moose tags!! I got a moose tag :chuckle:So do I, but I would like another one.
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Post by: Rainier10 on July 24, 2019, 08:41:01 PM
Post by: Bango skank on July 25, 2019, 04:15:20 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on July 25, 2019, 05:08:53 AM
Post by: Ridgerunner on July 25, 2019, 07:04:32 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on July 25, 2019, 08:00:54 AM
You mean to tell me the dreaming stops today?I hope not. I'm hoping for a call and sweet dreams of hunts on the horizon.
Post by: yogru on July 25, 2019, 08:28:52 AM
You can call any time.....
Post by: trophyhunt on July 25, 2019, 09:53:31 AM
Post by: Bango skank on July 25, 2019, 09:54:47 AM
What is depressing is, if you see the results posted and you never got a call, you already know you didn’t draw.
In 2017 i drew, and was able to get online and check my numbers and see that i drew, and i didnt get called until later that day.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 25, 2019, 10:00:44 AM
:yeah:What is depressing is, if you see the results posted and you never got a call, you already know you didn’t draw.
In 2017 i drew, and was able to get online and check my numbers and see that i drew, and i didnt get called until later that day.
2018 the guy that won the west elk raffle posted his story that he saw here results were posted, went online and saw he won. No phone call in advance.
Post by: trophyhunt on July 25, 2019, 10:06:16 AM
Post by: Bango skank on July 25, 2019, 10:43:58 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on July 25, 2019, 12:46:33 PM
Post by: Bango skank on July 25, 2019, 12:50:01 PM
Post by: benhuntin on July 25, 2019, 04:10:59 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Bango skank on July 25, 2019, 04:24:45 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on July 25, 2019, 04:38:10 PM
Post by: daddyelk on July 25, 2019, 04:40:49 PM
Post by: Bango skank on July 25, 2019, 04:42:10 PM
I called and the guy I talked to said he was in the process of calling the winners. I gave him my name to check the winners list and it wasn't on it :'(.maybe it wouldnt take him 3 days to call winners if people quit calling him to check :rolleyes:
Post by: trophyhunt on July 25, 2019, 04:42:33 PM
Post by: daddyelk on July 25, 2019, 04:53:05 PM
maybe if I was the guy calling the winners i wouldn't be taking general question phone calls until i was doneI called and the guy I talked to said he was in the process of calling the winners. I gave him my name to check the winners list and it wasn't on it :'(.maybe it wouldnt take him 3 days to call winners if people quit calling him to check :rolleyes:
Post by: Bango skank on July 25, 2019, 05:11:16 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on July 25, 2019, 05:20:21 PM
Post by: HillHound on July 25, 2019, 05:20:57 PM
Post by: Bushcraft on July 25, 2019, 05:31:49 PM
Just got off the phone with a friend who drew three raffle tags.
Thanks to those that stepped in the arena and congrats to those who caught a lucky lottery ball.
Post by: Bango skank on July 25, 2019, 05:36:00 PM
You could always pick up a multi season deer tag if you don’t have one already, that will give you 3 seasons to hunt that big whitetail.
Ive got a multi tag, but i wont have any rifle or muzzy off to hunt. Ill have about the first week and a half of september off, and the whole late archery season. I MIGHT get the last few days of early rifle off. Either way, i have a bigger older buck in a different area that i am going to try to get early sept. Ive been watching him for 5 years, and ive finally figured him out enough that i think i can get him in september, so im making my move. If i get him, the other buck will have to wait until 2020, unless i do get the raffle. If i dont score in september, then november will see me back after the buck i was hunting last year.
Post by: Bango skank on July 25, 2019, 05:38:22 PM
Results are out.
Just got off the phone with a friend who drew three raffle tags.
Thanks to those that stepped in the arena and congrats to those who caught a lucky lottery ball.
I dont see online that you can check numbers yet. So i guess you mean all calls have been made. If your friend drew whitetail, kick him in the nuts for me.
Post by: trophyhunt on July 25, 2019, 05:38:55 PM
Post by: Bango skank on July 25, 2019, 05:39:44 PM
Post by: Bushcraft on July 25, 2019, 06:58:35 PM
Results are out.
Just got off the phone with a friend who drew three raffle tags.
Thanks to those that stepped in the arena and congrats to those who caught a lucky lottery ball.
I dont see online that you can check numbers yet. So i guess you mean all calls have been made. If your friend drew whitetail, kick him in the nuts for me.
His nuts are safe! :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: teanawayslayer on July 25, 2019, 07:50:14 PM
Bought 200 in april, then another 101 in june.the guy that won the whitetail raffle probably only bought 5 tickets. WDFW thanks you for your donation. Because I’m sure your money will go to better the Species.
Bummer deal!
Post by: JimmyHoffa on July 25, 2019, 08:18:28 PM
Post by: Bango skank on July 25, 2019, 08:25:12 PM
WDFW thanks you for your donation. Because I’m sure your money will go to better the Species.
Cant tell if thats sarcasm, or if you just have a hell of a lot more faith than i do in wdfws ability to spend money wisely or make sound decisions to benefit our herds.
Post by: teanawayslayer on July 25, 2019, 09:44:13 PM
its sarcasm. I’ve dumped a good amount of cash for my budget in the past for years. That’s all I’ve done is donate. Would like to see where our money actually goes. I scaled way back on tickets this year. Glad I did. Same end result but I am 3k ahead of the game. :tup:WDFW thanks you for your donation. Because I’m sure your money will go to better the Species.
Cant tell if thats sarcasm, or if you just have a hell of a lot more faith than i do in wdfws ability to spend money wisely or make sound decisions to benefit our herds.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on July 26, 2019, 05:51:46 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on July 26, 2019, 11:05:30 AM
Looking forward to seeing how close I got to winning. Hopefully they post the results page before the end of day. My guess is won't be until next though.
Post by: jackelope on July 26, 2019, 01:12:34 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on July 26, 2019, 01:20:46 PM
Post by: jackelope on July 26, 2019, 01:29:50 PM
I wonder why they need to contact the winners before they release the results?
I believe because they want to make an effort to confirm the winners are going to take the permits.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 26, 2019, 02:50:06 PM
So you're saying I have a chance?I wonder why they need to contact the winners before they release the results?
I believe because they want to make an effort to confirm the winners are going to take the permits.
Post by: ctwiggs1 on July 26, 2019, 03:17:34 PM
Post by: Limhangerslayer on July 26, 2019, 05:14:38 PM
Post by: jackelope on July 26, 2019, 06:07:58 PM
Buddy got the call this morning that he has the south central!
Awesome.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 26, 2019, 09:36:10 PM
Buddy got the call this morning that he has the south central!That would be a really awesome one to win.
Post by: trophyhunt on July 30, 2019, 05:56:09 PM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on July 30, 2019, 06:21:58 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on July 30, 2019, 06:35:10 PM
Post by: Bango skank on July 31, 2019, 06:14:22 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on July 31, 2019, 06:27:55 AM
If you havent been called yet, you didnt draw. Still, id like to see how close i was. Be nice if wdfw could just post the damn results.:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
Post by: teanawayslayer on July 31, 2019, 06:41:53 AM
It sounds like most have been called, wth can’t Wdfw post results already!!called yesterday and they said all winners have been contacted.
Post by: MtnMuley on July 31, 2019, 07:05:24 AM
Post by: NWWA Hunter on July 31, 2019, 07:33:50 AM
The way this raffle is conducted is beyond pathetic. You see no other state struggle the way this clown outfit does. :twocents:
That is not true. Idaho posts a date winners will be notified by and regularly calls after that date. One raffle last year a state didn't even call the winner. A few days after the raffle a buddy texted the winner and asked if he drew, he said I doubt it, then the buddy texted the winner a picture off Facebook with his name in it. He called and they said he drew even though there were 2 guys in the raffle with the same name. Most states won't show you your position in the raffle whether you are 2nd, 3rd, etc. So I am not sure how you think other states do it so much better.
Post by: idahohuntr on July 31, 2019, 08:44:58 AM
:yeah:The way this raffle is conducted is beyond pathetic. You see no other state struggle the way this clown outfit does. :twocents:
That is not true. Idaho posts a date winners will be notified by and regularly calls after that date. One raffle last year a state didn't even call the winner. A few days after the raffle a buddy texted the winner and asked if he drew, he said I doubt it, then the buddy texted the winner a picture off Facebook with his name in it. He called and they said he drew even though there were 2 guys in the raffle with the same name. Most states won't show you your position in the raffle whether you are 2nd, 3rd, etc. So I am not sure how you think other states do it so much better.
This is comical...the deadline was July 15. Winners have all been notified...and people are whining because they demand to know whether they were the 10th loser or the 1000th loser within days of the draw? There is plenty to complain about with WDFW - notification of raffle winners/results is not one of them.
Post by: trophyhunt on July 31, 2019, 10:04:42 AM
Post by: full choke on July 31, 2019, 10:17:07 AM
:yeah:The way this raffle is conducted is beyond pathetic. You see no other state struggle the way this clown outfit does. :twocents:
That is not true. Idaho posts a date winners will be notified by and regularly calls after that date. One raffle last year a state didn't even call the winner. A few days after the raffle a buddy texted the winner and asked if he drew, he said I doubt it, then the buddy texted the winner a picture off Facebook with his name in it. He called and they said he drew even though there were 2 guys in the raffle with the same name. Most states won't show you your position in the raffle whether you are 2nd, 3rd, etc. So I am not sure how you think other states do it so much better.
This is comical...the deadline was July 15. Winners have all been notified...and people are whining because they demand to know whether they were the 10th loser or the 1000th loser within days of the draw? There is plenty to complain about with WDFW - notification of raffle winners/results is not one of them.
I do not have any skin in the game, I do not buy raffle tickets.
But... this is 2019. WDFW can post results of draws as fast as you can make a post on this forum.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 31, 2019, 11:07:19 AM
Also has anyone thought of the possibility that someone drew too many tags? The person might be deciding which ones they want. Then the alternates have to be contacted and asked if they want the tag.
Just sayin'.
Post by: Ghost Hunter on July 31, 2019, 12:48:02 PM
They double and triple check everything.
Also has anyone thought of the possibility that someone drew too many tags? The person might be deciding which ones they want. Then the alternates have to be contacted and asked if they want the tag.
Just sayin'.
So you're saying I still have a chance? :IBCOOL:
Post by: Rainier10 on July 31, 2019, 01:33:18 PM
Until I see that I am not in I'm still hoping that I have a chance.They double and triple check everything.
Also has anyone thought of the possibility that someone drew too many tags? The person might be deciding which ones they want. Then the alternates have to be contacted and asked if they want the tag.
Just sayin'.
So you're saying I still have a chance? :IBCOOL:
Post by: trophyhunt on August 05, 2019, 02:22:31 PM
Post by: Bango skank on August 05, 2019, 04:07:06 PM
Post by: jjhunter on August 05, 2019, 04:12:55 PM
Post by: rackattack on August 05, 2019, 05:05:11 PM
:bash: :bash: :bash:
If it makes you feel any better you are the 1st loser........ :dunno:
Looks like you gave it a strong effort.
Post by: kselkhunter on August 05, 2019, 05:23:51 PM
:bash: :bash: :bash:How are you getting to that screen in your account?
I can see that I purchased raffle tickets in order history, but can't see any screen that lists my rank in the draw order.
Post by: trophyhunt on August 05, 2019, 05:31:45 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on August 05, 2019, 05:34:14 PM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on August 05, 2019, 07:26:09 PM
Post by: greenhead_killer on August 05, 2019, 08:25:39 PM
Post by: jackelope on August 05, 2019, 08:32:09 PM
closest was 37 for the wt raffle. i cant complain though, ive got a stacked year anyhow
You got lucky not drawing a raffle hunt
:chuckle:
Post by: Ridgerunner on August 05, 2019, 08:33:48 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: JimmyHoffa on August 05, 2019, 08:38:55 PM
Post by: Bango skank on August 05, 2019, 08:44:18 PM
Bango I feel your pain
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hey, were both first losers
Post by: Dan-o on August 05, 2019, 08:51:09 PM
:bash: :bash: :bash:
Bummer.
I was rooting for you, knowing the effort you put in.
Post by: idahohuntr on August 05, 2019, 09:15:10 PM
Post by: Bango skank on August 05, 2019, 09:56:34 PM
Interesting results. The whitetail winner bought 10 tickets...and it appears one buyer won 3 raffles - mule deer, eastside, and westside elk!
Got a link to that info?
Post by: Rainier10 on August 05, 2019, 09:58:13 PM
just put the winning number for any of those raffles and you will see every ticket purchased by that buyer.Interesting results. The whitetail winner bought 10 tickets...and it appears one buyer won 3 raffles - mule deer, eastside, and westside elk!
Got a link to that info?
Post by: greenhead_killer on August 05, 2019, 10:30:32 PM
i know. Still had to play the game though!!closest was 37 for the wt raffle. i cant complain though, ive got a stacked year anyhow
You got lucky not drawing a raffle hunt
:chuckle:
Post by: Panther2207 on August 06, 2019, 02:45:06 PM
Post by: jackelope on August 06, 2019, 02:46:11 PM
Got lucky and drew the NE
Heck yeah. Congrats!
The last guy who came on here saying he drew the NE combo said so and then never came back. Please keep us posted on your hunt.
Mind sharing how many tickets you had?
Post by: Woodchuck on August 06, 2019, 02:50:26 PM
Got lucky and drew the NEAre you willing to share which critters you are going after?
Post by: Panther2207 on August 06, 2019, 02:59:06 PM
Moose
Elk
Deer
Post by: ctwiggs1 on August 06, 2019, 03:01:43 PM
Post by: Panther2207 on August 06, 2019, 03:04:28 PM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on August 06, 2019, 03:29:47 PM
Post by: Panther2207 on August 06, 2019, 03:52:14 PM