Post by: carlinski on July 02, 2019, 09:25:22 PM
Post by: bornhunter on July 02, 2019, 10:03:10 PM
Post by: Bushcraft on July 02, 2019, 10:43:11 PM
I drew the Goat Rocks Quality Bull Rifle tag last year and had an absolute nightmare experience with a well known guide! Personal message me for the details. Blew 16 years worth of points for the worst hunt of my life!
Why PM? Why not share your experience publicly? I don't know if the guy is in the guide and outfitting business anymore, but it may save others some frustration in the future.
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on July 03, 2019, 12:14:34 AM
Only ones I hear about get pretty poor reviews.
Especially if they played a guide on T.V.
But really, tell us the story and we will all know who it was.
Just change the names to protect the innocent.
Post by: Old Man8383 on July 03, 2019, 04:13:42 AM
There are folks claiming to be guides out there, many don't have permits to conduct business on federal lands and in the wilderness areas. I personally don't know of a "well known" guide/outfitter working in the South Cascades on the Westside of the crest that is permitted to work on USFS lands and in the wilderness area. I heard of a couple of "guides/outfitters" (I don't know if they qualify to be called well known) that claimed to be working on private forest lands, but that wouldn't cover your tag area.
Did you actually get to hunt in your tag area? If your guide took you to an area outside of where your tag was good for to hunt, I'd talk to WDFW and the Attorney General Office. They have a fraud division. Again sorry for how your hunt turned out.
Post by: elkchaser54 on July 03, 2019, 05:56:03 AM
Post by: grade-creek-rd on July 03, 2019, 08:27:14 AM
As for the trip, (yes, I know the details and I am aware of it all, as I was one of the guys who talked him into hiring a guide when he drew that tag, and I still feel bad for encouraging him to do so)...so if your looking for a "total review" or just want to ask a specific question he can let you know what happened on HIS trip...again, I am glad he didn't put it on here as Carlinski is a respectful guy and won't stoop to throwing mud but will let anyone (who wants to know) what happened on HIS trip so they can make a decision for themselves.
Grade
PS. Yes the guide has the required special use permits from the Forest Service, and is a known guide, it is not some "overnight/rogue" outfitter.
Post by: 2MANY on July 03, 2019, 10:15:44 AM
Post by: Matth on July 03, 2019, 12:15:20 PM
Post by: 2MANY on July 04, 2019, 08:54:28 AM
Post by: huntnfmly on July 04, 2019, 09:11:29 AM
Post by: Tbob on July 04, 2019, 02:57:30 PM
Post by: Tbob on July 06, 2019, 01:00:49 PM
Post by: WSU on July 06, 2019, 04:25:25 PM
Post by: huntnfmly on July 06, 2019, 04:57:10 PM
Post by: Harleysboss on July 06, 2019, 08:42:05 PM
Post by: j_h_nimrod on July 06, 2019, 10:29:44 PM
Just crappy that a OIL tag was tarnished by a poor guide outfit.
I would investigate the potential for litigation as well, not a fan of lawyers and suits, but for a righteous cause... :tup:
Post by: Bushcraft on July 06, 2019, 11:49:03 PM
More develop when vivid recollections have time to fester. ;)
Post by: White Pass Outfitters on July 07, 2019, 09:23:51 AM
Post by: Alchase on July 07, 2019, 09:46:40 AM
I believe it is important for sites like Hunting Washington to allow critical and praising reviews of Outfitters, especially since Washington has no "Outfitter Accountability" per se.
Police our own.
Post by: huntnfmly on July 07, 2019, 10:07:58 AM
Only going to get into this one time. This is the guides side of how the hunt went. First thing the hunter said he was highly allergic to horses, so he was asked can he hike and how far a day. The hunter said he hikes all the time and would rather hike than ride. So he was put in a camp by packwood lk. In the same camp where we took a 310 bull during archery season, and had seen two bigger bulls at that time also. After the first day of hunting the hunter realized he couldnt cut the hiking. So on the second day horses and a pack mule with more supplies where brought up to base camp. Just to let you all know we usually dont keep horses in camp, but we did it to try and help out this hunter. While loading up the hunter insisted on carrying his rifle rather than putting it in a scabbered. The guide should have said no but went with what the hunter wanted. The hunter was informed if we hit bees while riding you have to trot your horses away from them he said fine. Well of course they hit bees. So as there trotting down the trail the hunter tried to jump to the tree because he got scared and thats when he broke his gun that he would not put in the scabbered. I really dont see how that is the guides fault but we still offered the hunter another hunt but he declined . As far as the guide doing any illegal drugs thats just bs. And the wrangler has only been raised around stock his whole life. So like I said Im not going to get into this anymore just wanted the guides side of the story out there also. It is funny how so many dont know there limitation . Good luck to all this year even you CarlNice to hear the other side of story and it's exactly was what I expected.
Too many times you hear clients complain and slant stuff they think just because they pay for a guided hunt it's guaranteed then are butt hurt when it doesn't work out.
Post by: Tbob on July 07, 2019, 06:15:11 PM
Post by: The scout on July 07, 2019, 07:01:58 PM
Post by: 2MANY on July 07, 2019, 07:05:33 PM
Post by: jackelope on July 07, 2019, 07:15:02 PM
A lot of this raises a lot of questions for me.
Expand.
Post by: X-Force on July 07, 2019, 07:19:13 PM
Only going to get into this one time. This is the guides side of how the hunt went. First thing the hunter said he was highly allergic to horses, so he was asked can he hike and how far a day. The hunter said he hikes all the time and would rather hike than ride. So he was put in a camp by packwood lk. In the same camp where we took a 310 bull during archery season, and had seen two bigger bulls at that time also. After the first day of hunting the hunter realized he couldnt cut the hiking. So on the second day horses and a pack mule with more supplies where brought up to base camp. Just to let you all know we usually dont keep horses in camp, but we did it to try and help out this hunter. While loading up the hunter insisted on carrying his rifle rather than putting it in a scabbered. The guide should have said no but went with what the hunter wanted. The hunter was informed if we hit bees while riding you have to trot your horses away from them he said fine. Well of course they hit bees. So as there trotting down the trail the hunter tried to jump to the tree because he got scared and thats when he broke his gun that he would not put in the scabbered. I really dont see how that is the guides fault but we still offered the hunter another hunt but he declined . As far as the guide doing any illegal drugs thats just bs. And the wrangler has only been raised around stock his whole life. So like I said Im not going to get into this anymore just wanted the guides side of the story out there also. It is funny how so many dont know there limitation . Good luck to all this year even you Carl
Thanks for chiming in
Post by: WSU on July 07, 2019, 08:36:09 PM
A lot of this raises a lot of questions for me.
Expand.
I believe 2many hunts with his own stock a lot.
Post by: bearpaw on July 07, 2019, 09:23:50 PM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on July 07, 2019, 11:23:07 PM
If this is the case (not doubting, just opining) then there is a real need for quality guides in this state and a bonafide guide association. Alaska has the APHA and there are many others that would quickly stretch this companies hide for poor performance.:yeah:
Honestly, it was a complaint about an outfitter in western Washington that made me seriously consider a guide/outfitter business.
With the stories I heard about poor customer service, sitting in blinds watching the yellow jackets eat a pile of apples, and everything BUT a decent elk hunt, what I considered a quality experience is nothing compared to what was offered.
Only thing was I wanted to offer it in the area/unit I hunt.
Western Washington Roosevelt's Elk (west of I-5)
I checked the laws, contacted other outfitter/guides (swot analysis) and figured it was worth it.
I bought a business licence, argued extensively with the DNR about a permit to operate on state lands for a profit, finally got through to the neccessary insurance, but could not get a specific/exclusive area.
There is no STATE requirement, only Federal.
In Washington you only need a business licence and liability insurance, to operate on state land the state needs to be covered/exempted and included for coverage against liability.
private land has its own requirements. (Probably pretty close to same)
However, I have met several "guides" that have no clue.
In my time, of attempting to start my own operation I have heard nothing but horror stories about Western Washington elk guides/outfitters.
If it was not for my interest in it, I would never have heard of R.E.O., or had the pleasure of becoming friends with Mike Jenkins of Upfront Outfitters.
.
My dealings with W.P.O. was a straightforward business transaction, and I have never met his guides.
.
However, I honestly do agree that there should be a LEGAL requirement to join the Washington State Outfitters and Guides Association, (no requirement to join) and be held accountable.
Sorry for the :jacked:
But the subject came up.
.
Too bad about the bad experience, but it just proves my point.
There should be the same regulations (at least) as there is for a fishing guide in order to be a hunting guide.
Cannot help with the clients...
I got a few stories there for a different thread.
Post by: 2MANY on July 08, 2019, 09:15:15 AM
OK.
IMHO expanding more should have been done by both parties long before they hit the woods.
Expectations should have been addressed, planned for, and met.
If one side didn't follow through with what was discussed then that is bad bad bad.
The hunter doesn't feel like his needs were even close to met.
I know nothing about the 2 party's agreement or details but based on the hunt location referenced above I can't say I blame the hunter for being disappointed with that part of their combined failure.
Obviously had a large bull been killed my guess is the location would have become irrelevant.
If a person spends enough miles in the saddle they will be involved in horse wrecks.
Not to mention, if you tie a string of mules together things can get western in a hurry.
A big ivory tipped six point bull rack strapped to the back of a mule trying to shed the load is a beautiful thing.
Usually the horse memories last longer than the smaller details of any trip especially for a dude.
This outcome should have been avoided.
Post by: kselkhunter on July 08, 2019, 10:43:25 AM
Stuff happens. Having worked cattle for many years earlier in my life, rounding up cows out of forested areas is a pain in the arse. My horse stepped on yellow jacket nests in that time, and that experience sucks. I imagine it's even worse with a set of mules tied behind going berserk. I was a very experienced mountain rider during my time. The thought of a novice on a horse with a rifle in their hand (instead of a scabbard) dealing with a yellow jacket nest incident.....yikes.
Always have a contract in place, and set expectations for camp and hunt parameters in advance with an outfitter/guide. As well as expectations for the horses and how they will be used (ie just riding to camp on, or also hunting from during the trip).
Post by: elkchaser54 on July 08, 2019, 11:20:31 AM
Post by: 2MANY on July 08, 2019, 11:28:45 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on July 08, 2019, 11:42:24 AM
Did we skip jury selection?duh! This is the internet sir 8)
Post by: elkchaser54 on July 08, 2019, 11:56:22 AM
Post by: jackelope on July 08, 2019, 11:59:32 AM
Expand more?
OK.
IMHO expanding more should have been done by both parties long before they hit the woods.
Expectations should have been addressed, planned for, and met.
If one side didn't follow through with what was discussed then that is bad bad bad.
The hunter doesn't feel like his needs were even close to met.
I know nothing about the 2 party's agreement or details but based on the hunt location referenced above I can't say I blame the hunter for being disappointed with that part of their combined failure.
Obviously had a large bull been killed my guess is the location would have become irrelevant.
If a person spends enough miles in the saddle they will be involved in horse wrecks.
Not to mention, if you tie a string of mules together things can get western in a hurry.
A big ivory tipped six point bull rack strapped to the back of a mule trying to shed the load is a beautiful thing.
Usually the horse memories last longer than the smaller details of any trip especially for a dude.
This outcome should have been avoided.
It seems to me, and maybe to you, that mistakes were made on both ends of this transaction. I’ve got relatively limited time on horses and I’ve been thrown because the horse walked into a puddle and didn’t like said puddle. Decided he liked me less on his back at that moment and ejected me. Trail horse with lots of trail miles. Stuff happens on a horse. I never fully trust them to not lose their minds. Especially in the woods.
Post by: idaho guy on July 08, 2019, 12:56:57 PM
I can attest to the fact that any horse including some of the best will freak out if they get swarmed by bees, it's happened to me several times through the years when packing in warm weather. Anyone who doesn't know horses or might be afraid of horses would think that the horses are untrained rodeo horses because it gets pretty wild if the horses are getting stung bad, about all you can do is get the horses away from the bees as fast as possible.
:yeah: pretty common I have had it happen more than a few times on my own horses which I know and are super broke . Not fun but in no way the fault of the guide or the horse
Post by: big wood on July 08, 2019, 02:14:46 PM
Post by: 2MANY on July 08, 2019, 02:45:54 PM
#1 I have been lied to by a outfitter in a state where you had to hire one.
#2 In many of these situations the trip of a lifetime for a hunter = not a repeat customer for outfitter.
Post by: Harleysboss on July 08, 2019, 04:50:35 PM
Post by: Bushcraft on July 08, 2019, 05:19:07 PM
This is getting interesting with all the comments. I see that White Pass Outfitters is taking the blame as he posted a rebuttal. I see that a lot of "Jury" members are citing third party hearsay. Well Mr White Pass Outfitting,, were you actually on scene for any of this? If you are an honest man ,I would expect your answer to be" NO I was not". So that makes his story of events third party as well. I don't have any sort of ax to grind. People were asking for details and I asked for permission to post a very very watered down representation of the story told to me first hand by my next door neighbor (The Hunter). The big Lie here is that the hunter is upset about not getting an animal on this hunt. WRONG! He is upset about a horse back hunt in the Goat Rocks Wilderness that was anything but. I have spoken to the OP and he assures me that he will post his version when he has time. IF only half of what he tells is true..I think it will shock most hunters and outfitters alike. I call for a recess to this hunt forum trial until the key witness has time to respond.
Sigh...how did I know this would evolve from a "PM me for a discrete one-sided recount of my side of the story" to "I'm going to air out the laundry". :dunno: :chuckle:
Post by: emac on July 08, 2019, 05:20:02 PM
This is getting interesting with all the comments. I see that White Pass Outfitters is taking the blame as he posted a rebuttal. I see that a lot of "Jury" members are citing third party hearsay. Well Mr White Pass Outfitting,, were you actually on scene for any of this? If you are an honest man ,I would expect your answer to be" NO I was not". So that makes his story of events third party as well. I don't have any sort of ax to grind. People were asking for details and I asked for permission to post a very very watered down representation of the story told to me first hand by my next door neighbor (The Hunter). The big Lie here is that the hunter is upset about not getting an animal on this hunt. WRONG! He is upset about a horse back hunt in the Goat Rocks Wilderness that was anything but. I have spoken to the OP and he assures me that he will post his version when he has time. IF only half of what he tells is true..I think it will shock most hunters and outfitters alike. I call for a recess to this hunt forum trial until the key witness has time to respond.So were you there? If you weren't doesn't that make what you are saying 3rd party. Even if the owner wasn't there he got his part of the story from his guides, just like you got your story from your neighbor. How is there any difference.
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Post by: Elkcollector82 on July 08, 2019, 05:21:56 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on July 08, 2019, 05:28:58 PM
Post by: Mudman on July 08, 2019, 05:34:26 PM
Post by: Shawn Ryan on July 08, 2019, 05:45:15 PM
Did we skip jury selection?
Internet winner for today.
Post by: Harleysboss on July 08, 2019, 05:49:36 PM
Post by: elkchaser54 on July 08, 2019, 06:08:59 PM
Post by: huntnfmly on July 08, 2019, 07:20:52 PM
So a guy who is allergic to horses and can hike with horse trains got on a horse? Pretty sure he has no knowledge/experience of horses. He aint smart enough to put his gun in the "safe" place for riding and he holds Guide responsible for bees/horses reactions? A self medicating guide at camp? So. His day is done, his business. It seems if a person listened to guide and scabbared his rifle it would not have broke? If he had some horse experience and 2 hands riding (not holding a rifle) he might not been hurt when tossed from horse as the shoulder injury suggest. Either way it sucks, very bad luck and a bad trip when expectations where so high. I would be but sore as well but I accept responsibilty for my decisions and don't try blame any source I can find but that's me. WPO imop is a good outfit trying best to perform in a tough business. Things aint always roses. Aint NW Trek in the mnts. Sheet happens people.I agree 100% And I can guarantee that if he would have been successful we never would have even heard about this
Post by: kselkhunter on July 08, 2019, 07:48:18 PM
Yes that in fact makes me a third party hearsay to this. I was told the story directly from the hunter. As I understand it, the owner or head guide was not present on this hunt either. That kinda makes him third party as well. He posted his version and we can all wait for the hunters account. People were asking questions above and beyond PM's so I asked the eyewitness (the OP) if I could put up a short story of the "hunt". There is all sorts of speculation from all kinds of posters on this thread as to why horses spook, how one should prep for a guided hunt and so on. The fact is no one but the hunter and a couple of other guys...I wont call them guides were actually there. The Hunter in this case spent 16 long waited points on a pretty tough hunt to draw and was misguided(pun intended) by all involved.
You accused White Pass Outfitters of "self medicating with an unknown substance" even though you admit you were not there. Your statement has more legal and fiduciary ramifications than you realize. You're not anonymous.
Post by: emac on July 08, 2019, 08:11:49 PM
Yes that in fact makes me a third party hearsay to this. I was told the story directly from the hunter. As I understand it, the owner or head guide was not present on this hunt either. That kinda makes him third party as well. He posted his version and we can all wait for the hunters account. People were asking questions above and beyond PM's so I asked the eyewitness (the OP) if I could put up a short story of the "hunt". There is all sorts of speculation from all kinds of posters on this thread as to why horses spook, how one should prep for a guided hunt and so on. The fact is no one but the hunter and a couple of other guys...I wont call them guides were actually there. The Hunter in this case spent 16 long waited points on a pretty tough hunt to draw and was misguided(pun intended) by all involved.So whats the difference between you and WPO coming on here and giving his side. No different what so ever.
And also i don't either party involved but you just keep digging yourself a deeper hole
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Post by: Harleysboss on July 08, 2019, 08:30:31 PM
Post by: 92xj on July 08, 2019, 08:52:57 PM
Post by: Timberstalker on July 08, 2019, 08:55:31 PM
Post by: Alchase on July 08, 2019, 08:56:18 PM
Post by: ribka on July 08, 2019, 08:58:48 PM
Anyone care to show me and the internet police where I accused anyone of anything illegal? Self medicating can mean all sorts of things. Oh and by the way can anyone show me or anyone else where I named anyone by name and made any accusations of illegal activity? The outfitter named himself on this thread...I didn't. He brought up illegal drugs..I didn't. Please show me and advise in all your best legal opinion how I could possibly be defaming anyone? Your right I'm not anonymous so please don't make threats against me on a public forum...I have surely not made any threats against anyone.Everyone else has shared there opinions on this topic and I have merely shared my knowledge of the same.
So you’re the surrogate complainer?
Why can’t the client come here and directly post?
This entire second hand retelling of the supposed abuse is pretty weird imo
Post by: hogslayer on July 08, 2019, 09:00:43 PM
Post by: 92xj on July 08, 2019, 09:00:57 PM
I'm still curious about the rest of the hunt. No sides have been taken and this is all entertaining for me.
Post by: carlinski on July 08, 2019, 09:10:32 PM
Post by: 92xj on July 08, 2019, 09:18:43 PM
Post by: hothand21 on July 08, 2019, 09:35:02 PM
Post by: Timberstalker on July 08, 2019, 09:39:44 PM
Post by: hothand21 on July 08, 2019, 10:01:37 PM
Cigarettes and chew, ✅✅ thought that was a given
Post by: Alchase on July 08, 2019, 10:17:53 PM
Post by: Grizzlykiller on July 08, 2019, 10:59:04 PM
You guys sound like a bunch of 2nd graders at recess fighting over who gets to play on the swing.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/bandcgrizzly/4symbols.gif) (https://smg.photobucket.com/user/bandcgrizzly/media/4symbols.gif.html)
Post by: 2MANY on July 08, 2019, 11:15:05 PM
Pathetic.
Post by: White Pass Outfitters on July 09, 2019, 07:50:26 AM
Post by: full choke on July 09, 2019, 08:31:54 AM
:Here is a pic of a bull the same guide got his hunter in the same camp. And not the heard bull we had been seeing . And here is a pic of the bull the hunter got when I took him back in for free because they blew the bulls out by the ski resort. Good luck to all this yr.
I have no skin in this game.
From reading the OP's account, and your responses- there is an obvious disconnect.
I interpreted his complaint to being geared more towards not getting the SERVICE he was quoted.
He didn't buy a bull from you, he bought a hunt. What he was provided was not what you told him he was going to get.
Maybe I am wrong?
Post by: Jpmiller on July 09, 2019, 10:43:38 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on July 09, 2019, 10:54:01 AM
Might want to pull that note down and put one with some redacted location names on it unless putting out all of the outfitters spots is part of your plan.That and he might want to censor the foul language in the letter that the forum censor can't clean up.
Post by: mburrows on July 09, 2019, 11:08:47 AM