Advice for anyone looking for a guide in the Goat Rocks Wilderness?

[Harleysboss]

I know the complete story as well.. Ol'e "Guide" up near white pass or there abouts is the one in question. The " back country horse camp" left the parking lot at Packwood lake promptly at around 9 am each morning, hunter and "guide" walked down the trail to a near by swamp and spent the day swatting mosquitoes and the guide self medicating on some unknown substance. The horses only showed up days later after several threatening phone calls to the head "guide".  The horse wrangler from what I heard knew little to nothing about hunting, horses or much else. The hunter dang near lost his life when the horse he was riding spooked and ran down hill through the trees. Hunter was bashed off his ride by a tree. Separated shoulder and destroyed a fine Weatherby rifle and scope.  For those that PM'd be patient...the original poster and his family are very busy with summer sporting events.  That is a very dumbed down version of the events that took place. Thought I would give everyone a small idea of what everyone is wondering about.   I wont talk further about it...not my story to tell.

[j_h_nimrod]

If this is the case (not doubting, just opining) then there is a real need for quality guides in this state and a bonafide guide association. Alaska has the APHA and there are many others that would quickly stretch this companies hide for poor performance. I have guided in the past and will in the future and know I am not a master but take pride in being able to know what a quality experience consists of. I have never seen Goat Rocks, yet I know I could top this experience, sans horses, easily. A quality packer should not be that hard of a quest, most horse guys I know are pretty quality.

Just crappy that a OIL tag was tarnished by a poor guide outfit.

I would investigate the potential for litigation as well, not a fan of lawyers and suits, but for a righteous cause...

[Bushcraft]

There are always at least two sides to the original story.

More develop when vivid recollections have time to fester. 

[White Pass Outfitters]

Only going to get into this one time. This is the guides side of how the hunt went. First thing the hunter said he was highly allergic to horses, so he was asked can he hike and how far a day. The hunter said he hikes all the time and would rather hike than ride. So he was put in a camp by packwood lk. In the same camp where we took a 310 bull during archery season, and had seen two bigger bulls at that time also. After the first day of hunting the hunter realized he couldnt cut the hiking. So on the second day horses and a pack mule with more supplies where brought up to base camp. Just to let you all know we usually dont keep horses in camp, but we did it to try and help out this hunter. While loading up the hunter insisted on carrying his rifle rather than putting it in a scabbered. The guide should have said no but went with what the hunter wanted. The hunter was informed if we hit bees while riding you have to trot your horses away from them he said fine. Well of course they hit bees. So as there trotting down the trail the hunter tried to jump  to the tree because he got scared and thats when he broke his gun that he would not put in the scabbered. I really dont see how that is the guides fault but we still offered the hunter another hunt but he declined . As far as the guide doing any illegal drugs thats just bs. And the wrangler has only been raised around stock his whole life. So like I said Im not going to get into this anymore just wanted the guides side of the story out there also. It is funny how so many dont know there limitation . Good luck to all this year even you Carl

[Alchase]

Thanks, it is good to hear both sides of the story.

I believe it is important for sites like Hunting Washington to allow critical and praising reviews of Outfitters, especially since Washington has no "Outfitter Accountability" per se.

Police our own.

[huntnfmly]

Only going to get into this one time. This is the guides side of how the hunt went. First thing the hunter said he was highly allergic to horses, so he was asked can he hike and how far a day. The hunter said he hikes all the time and would rather hike than ride. So he was put in a camp by packwood lk. In the same camp where we took a 310 bull during archery season, and had seen two bigger bulls at that time also. After the first day of hunting the hunter realized he couldnt cut the hiking. So on the second day horses and a pack mule with more supplies where brought up to base camp. Just to let you all know we usually dont keep horses in camp, but we did it to try and help out this hunter. While loading up the hunter insisted on carrying his rifle rather than putting it in a scabbered. The guide should have said no but went with what the hunter wanted. The hunter was informed if we hit bees while riding you have to trot your horses away from them he said fine. Well of course they hit bees. So as there trotting down the trail the hunter tried to jump  to the tree because he got scared and thats when he broke his gun that he would not put in the scabbered. I really dont see how that is the guides fault but we still offered the hunter another hunt but he declined . As far as the guide doing any illegal drugs thats just bs. And the wrangler has only been raised around stock his whole life. So like I said Im not going to get into this anymore just wanted the guides side of the story out there also. It is funny how so many dont know there limitation . Good luck to all this year even you Carl

Nice to hear the other side of story and it's exactly was what I expected.
Too many times you hear clients complain and slant stuff  they think just because they pay for a guided hunt it's guaranteed then are butt hurt when it doesn't work out.

[Tbob]

Always interesting around here.

[The scout]

I have used Kent’s services multiple times before and I will continue to use him.

[2MANY]

A lot of this raises a lot of questions for me.

[jackelope]

A lot of this raises a lot of questions for me.

Expand.

[X-Force]

Only going to get into this one time. This is the guides side of how the hunt went. First thing the hunter said he was highly allergic to horses, so he was asked can he hike and how far a day. The hunter said he hikes all the time and would rather hike than ride. So he was put in a camp by packwood lk. In the same camp where we took a 310 bull during archery season, and had seen two bigger bulls at that time also. After the first day of hunting the hunter realized he couldnt cut the hiking. So on the second day horses and a pack mule with more supplies where brought up to base camp. Just to let you all know we usually dont keep horses in camp, but we did it to try and help out this hunter. While loading up the hunter insisted on carrying his rifle rather than putting it in a scabbered. The guide should have said no but went with what the hunter wanted. The hunter was informed if we hit bees while riding you have to trot your horses away from them he said fine. Well of course they hit bees. So as there trotting down the trail the hunter tried to jump  to the tree because he got scared and thats when he broke his gun that he would not put in the scabbered. I really dont see how that is the guides fault but we still offered the hunter another hunt but he declined . As far as the guide doing any illegal drugs thats just bs. And the wrangler has only been raised around stock his whole life. So like I said Im not going to get into this anymore just wanted the guides side of the story out there also. It is funny how so many dont know there limitation . Good luck to all this year even you Carl

Thanks for chiming in

[WSU]

A lot of this raises a lot of questions for me.

Expand.

I believe 2many hunts with his own stock a lot.

[bearpaw]

I can attest to the fact that any horse including some of the best will freak out if they get swarmed by bees, it's happened to me several times through the years when packing in warm weather. Anyone who doesn't know horses or might be afraid of horses would think that the horses are untrained rodeo horses because it gets pretty wild if the horses are getting stung bad, about all you can do is get the horses away from the bees as fast as possible.

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

If this is the case (not doubting, just opining) then there is a real need for quality guides in this state and a bonafide guide association. Alaska has the APHA and there are many others that would quickly stretch this companies hide for poor performance.

Honestly, it was a complaint about an outfitter in western Washington that made me seriously consider a guide/outfitter business.
With the stories I heard about poor customer service, sitting in blinds watching the yellow jackets eat a pile of apples, and everything BUT a decent elk hunt, what I considered a quality experience is nothing compared to what was offered.
Only thing was I wanted to offer it in the area/unit I hunt.
Western Washington Roosevelt's Elk (west of I-5)
I checked the laws, contacted other outfitter/guides (swot analysis) and figured it was worth it.
I bought a business licence, argued extensively with the DNR about a permit to operate on state lands for a profit, finally got through to the neccessary insurance, but could not get a specific/exclusive area.
There is no STATE requirement, only Federal.
In Washington you only need a business licence and liability insurance, to operate on state land the state needs to be covered/exempted and included for coverage against liability.
 private land has its own requirements. (Probably pretty close to same)
However, I have met several "guides" that have no clue.
In my time, of attempting to start my own operation I have heard nothing but horror stories about Western Washington elk guides/outfitters.
If it was not for my interest in it, I would never have heard of R.E.O., or had the pleasure of becoming friends with Mike Jenkins of Upfront Outfitters.
.
My dealings with W.P.O. was a straightforward business transaction, and I have never met his guides.
.
However, I honestly do agree that there should be a LEGAL requirement to join the Washington State Outfitters and Guides Association, (no requirement to join) and be held accountable.
Sorry for the   
But the subject came up.

.
Too bad about the bad experience, but it just proves my point.
There should be the same regulations (at least) as there is for a fishing guide in order to be a hunting guide.
Cannot help with the clients...
I got a few stories there for a different thread.

[2MANY]

Expand more?
OK.

IMHO expanding more should have been done by both parties long before they hit the woods.
Expectations should have been addressed, planned for, and met.
If one side didn't follow through with what was discussed then that is bad bad bad.

The hunter doesn't feel like his needs were even close to met.
I know nothing about the 2 party's agreement or details but based on the hunt location referenced above I can't say I blame the hunter for being disappointed with that part of their combined failure.
Obviously had a large bull been killed my guess is the location would have become irrelevant.

If a person spends enough miles in the saddle they will be involved in horse wrecks.
Not to mention, if you tie a string of mules together things can get western in a hurry.
A big ivory tipped six point bull rack strapped to the back of a mule trying to shed the load is a beautiful thing.
Usually the horse memories last longer than the smaller details of any trip especially for a dude.

This outcome should have been avoided.