Post by: TriggerMike on September 13, 2019, 01:45:09 PM
Full article at the link above but two specific paragraphs in this that were the biggest takeaways for me are:
1.) "Local Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife biologist Jeff Bernatowicz said no studies have been done on area calves and researchers don’t know why their survival numbers are historically low. Until that trend reverses, hunters must pay the price with fewer permits available and shortened seasons for archers."
Why have no studies been done on this?
2.) "Bernatowicz noted hunters could also see negative effects from a pair of factors outside their control. Access to the Yakima Training Center will be limited this fall by heavy training activity, and unofficial reports from one tribe show total tribal harvest may be exceeding the number of new branched bulls in the herd, according to the wildlife department."
So the tribe is self reporting that they're literally killing off the bulls? Killing more bulls then are being recruited as calves each year. Wow. Also the Colockum herd has declined as well. They're currently at 4,133 elk up there and the WDFW's goal is 6,000.
Post by: Tbar on September 13, 2019, 02:22:32 PM
https://www.yakimaherald.com/sports/outdoors/troubling-decline-falling-elk-populations-bring-hunting-reductions/article_f8725d29-b19e-503d-af9a-0c1c18054831.htmlThe colockum was an intentional herd reduction. I believe they reduced their objectives as well....
Full article at the link above but two specific paragraphs in this that were the biggest takeaways for me are:
1.) "Local Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife biologist Jeff Bernatowicz said no studies have been done on area calves and researchers don’t know why their survival numbers are historically low. Until that trend reverses, hunters must pay the price with fewer permits available and shortened seasons for archers."
Why have no studies been done on this?
2.) "Bernatowicz noted hunters could also see negative effects from a pair of factors outside their control. Access to the Yakima Training Center will be limited this fall by heavy training activity, and unofficial reports from one tribe show total tribal harvest may be exceeding the number of new branched bulls in the herd, according to the wildlife department."
So the tribe is self reporting that they're literally killing off the bulls? Killing more bulls then are being recruited as calves each year. Wow. Also the Colockum herd has declined as well. They're currently at 4,133 elk up there and the WDFW's goal is 6,000.
Post by: elkrack on September 13, 2019, 02:26:37 PM
Post by: TriggerMike on September 13, 2019, 02:34:17 PM
https://www.yakimaherald.com/sports/outdoors/troubling-decline-falling-elk-populations-bring-hunting-reductions/article_f8725d29-b19e-503d-af9a-0c1c18054831.htmlThe colockum was an intentional herd reduction. I believe they reduced their objectives as well....
Full article at the link above but two specific paragraphs in this that were the biggest takeaways for me are:
1.) "Local Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife biologist Jeff Bernatowicz said no studies have been done on area calves and researchers don’t know why their survival numbers are historically low. Until that trend reverses, hunters must pay the price with fewer permits available and shortened seasons for archers."
Why have no studies been done on this?
2.) "Bernatowicz noted hunters could also see negative effects from a pair of factors outside their control. Access to the Yakima Training Center will be limited this fall by heavy training activity, and unofficial reports from one tribe show total tribal harvest may be exceeding the number of new branched bulls in the herd, according to the wildlife department."
So the tribe is self reporting that they're literally killing off the bulls? Killing more bulls then are being recruited as calves each year. Wow. Also the Colockum herd has declined as well. They're currently at 4,133 elk up there and the WDFW's goal is 6,000.
According to the hunting prospects that were published last week, both herds are below their population objectives. And just a few years ago the Colockum herd was over 6,000 elk.
https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/02103/district_8_hunting_prospects_2019.pdf
Post by: jstone on September 13, 2019, 03:09:11 PM
Post by: jstone on September 13, 2019, 03:11:42 PM
Post by: Tbar on September 13, 2019, 03:29:55 PM
Post by: vandeman17 on September 13, 2019, 03:35:35 PM
Downey?
Robert :tup:
Post by: PlateauNDN on September 13, 2019, 03:45:26 PM
Not saying targeting of certain sexes doesn't have an adverse affect, just saying it's not the only reason.
Post by: ribka on September 13, 2019, 04:19:26 PM
I just saw 2 big bulls come off the colokum on Monday in the back of a tribal truck. Weren’t even gutted out and it was in the low 80’s. So much for meat care and honoring the animal. :dunno:
I wonder how much he’ll get for those racks on Craigslist or Facebook
Elk will be oil tags in Washington in a few years
Post by: PlateauNDN on September 13, 2019, 04:36:10 PM
Post by: Odell on September 13, 2019, 06:17:27 PM
Not saying that is the mentality of them all or even the majority but it is a reality that they will be allowed to continue hunting no matter what happens.
Post by: bobcat on September 13, 2019, 06:53:04 PM
Post by: meatwhack on September 13, 2019, 07:01:44 PM
Post by: bornhunter on September 13, 2019, 07:02:35 PM
Post by: TriggerMike on September 13, 2019, 07:15:27 PM
Post by: PlateauNDN on September 13, 2019, 07:20:28 PM
:rolleyes: :chuckle:
Post by: PlateauNDN on September 13, 2019, 07:29:27 PM
There was a report posted here about cougars having a bigger impact on elk then wolves. Though I'd take it with a big scoop of salt as it does seem one-sided and narrow reporting.
But who cares, let's just blame the Natives as it's easier to point fingers at them.
:dunno:
Post by: elkrack on September 13, 2019, 07:42:13 PM
The surveys dont count all the elk. The colock especially. There's areas elk winter in that don't get counted. Do they count the YTC herd? How many of those elk migrated because of snow in colock over rye/i-90 to YTC and stayed?
Not saying targeting of certain sexes doesn't have an adverse affect, just saying it's not the only reason.
Plat definitely has a good point here. I know rimrock suffers from a lot of poaching also.
Post by: elkrack on September 13, 2019, 07:56:12 PM
Elk will be oil tags in Washington in a few years
[/quote]
With the numbers that they reduced the Quality bull/bull permits down to last year they basically are once-in-a-lifetime tags now 👎🏻
Post by: Special T on September 13, 2019, 09:11:29 PM
the over abundance of cougars, bear and the newest predator the wolf also have an impact?
:dunno:
The combination of site predators and ambush predators does way more damage than either alone.
If you want to bust on Yakimas do it for not running hounds all across the ceded lands.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: JimmyHoffa on September 13, 2019, 09:29:43 PM
I think the assumption here is the Yakamas can hunt cats to numbers of their choosing. Can they? For the coast, WDFW bios seem to really follow the tribal cat take and use it to adjust the next year's quota (I've heard). So, if the quota we see listed for state hunters is six cats for the GMU, then WDFW figures the tribe takes six too. If over quota one year, then it would decrease the next. Thinking wishfully, a few tribal houndsmen could knock back 90% of the cats--but I think WDFW has ways to counter it.the over abundance of cougars, bear and the newest predator the wolf also have an impact?
:dunno:
The combination of site predators and ambush predators does way more damage than either alone.
If you want to bust on Yakimas do it for not running hounds all across the ceded lands.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: Special T on September 13, 2019, 09:31:48 PM
If the gripes about the Yakimas killing elk with no recourse is true, then cats are no different.I think the assumption here is the Yakamas can hunt cats to numbers of their choosing. Can they? For the coast, WDFW bios seem to really follow the tribal cat take and use it to adjust the next year's quota (I've heard). So, if the quota we see listed for state hunters is six cats for the GMU, then WDFW figures the tribe takes six too. If over quota one year, then it would decrease the next. Thinking wishfully, a few tribal houndsmen could knock back 90% of the cats--but I think WDFW has ways to counter it.the over abundance of cougars, bear and the newest predator the wolf also have an impact?
:dunno:
The combination of site predators and ambush predators does way more damage than either alone.
If you want to bust on Yakimas do it for not running hounds all across the ceded lands.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: Tinmaniac on September 13, 2019, 09:32:34 PM
Post by: TriggerMike on September 13, 2019, 09:47:06 PM
WE, are the only reason? Couldn't migrating and not returning, or the over abundance of cougars, bear and the newest predator the wolf also have an impact?YOU are not the reason. And we should all be better about generalizing but there are definitely several members of your tribe that are at fault for this. There's really no denying it. I'm not trying to pick a fight with you on this, but it's absolutely true. Direct your anger at the bad apples on your rez giving your tribe a bad rep, not the people on this site that are justified to have the perception that we do. And yes, predators take some animals as well.
There was a report posted here about cougars having a bigger impact on elk then wolves. Though I'd take it with a big scoop of salt as it does seem one-sided and narrow reporting.
But who cares, let's just blame the Natives as it's easier to point fingers at them.
:dunno:
Post by: TriggerMike on September 13, 2019, 09:50:40 PM
Post by: hughjorgan on September 13, 2019, 10:17:13 PM
WE, are the only reason? Couldn't migrating and not returning, or the over abundance of cougars, bear and the newest predator the wolf also have an impact?YOU are not the reason. And we should all be better about generalizing but there are definitely several members of your tribe that are at fault for this. There's really no denying it. I'm not trying to pick a fight with you on this, but it's absolutely true. Direct your anger at the bad apples on your rez giving your tribe a bad rep, not the people on this site that are justified to have the perception that we do. And yes, predators take some animals as well.
There was a report posted here about cougars having a bigger impact on elk then wolves. Though I'd take it with a big scoop of salt as it does seem one-sided and narrow reporting.
But who cares, let's just blame the Natives as it's easier to point fingers at them.
:dunno:
Don’t forget all the garbage that are poaching, or wdfw giving out too many cow tags and then throw in some predators and the muckleshoots and here we are with low calf recruitment; less branch antler permits and hunters arguing with other hunters.
Glad it’s hunting season...
Post by: Tbar on September 13, 2019, 10:26:31 PM
The population objective was 6500 they reduced the objective to 4500 and still over killed the animals. It was a targeted reduction by the department to adress social tolerance. You seem to know all so I'll stop.https://www.yakimaherald.com/sports/outdoors/troubling-decline-falling-elk-populations-bring-hunting-reductions/article_f8725d29-b19e-503d-af9a-0c1c18054831.htmlThe colockum was an intentional herd reduction. I believe they reduced their objectives as well....
Full article at the link above but two specific paragraphs in this that were the biggest takeaways for me are:
1.) "Local Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife biologist Jeff Bernatowicz said no studies have been done on area calves and researchers don’t know why their survival numbers are historically low. Until that trend reverses, hunters must pay the price with fewer permits available and shortened seasons for archers."
Why have no studies been done on this?
2.) "Bernatowicz noted hunters could also see negative effects from a pair of factors outside their control. Access to the Yakima Training Center will be limited this fall by heavy training activity, and unofficial reports from one tribe show total tribal harvest may be exceeding the number of new branched bulls in the herd, according to the wildlife department."
So the tribe is self reporting that they're literally killing off the bulls? Killing more bulls then are being recruited as calves each year. Wow. Also the Colockum herd has declined as well. They're currently at 4,133 elk up there and the WDFW's goal is 6,000.
According to the hunting prospects that were published last week, both herds are below their population objectives. And just a few years ago the Colockum herd was over 6,000 elk.
https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/02103/district_8_hunting_prospects_2019.pdf
Post by: X-Force on September 13, 2019, 10:54:11 PM
It shouldn’t be a surprise management goals, rainfall, Fire, herd objectives, etc jump around and so do populations swings. Management is always a moving target.
Post by: Mudman on September 13, 2019, 11:06:58 PM
Post by: TriggerMike on September 13, 2019, 11:25:17 PM
I'm not claiming to "know all". I quoted a news article and a published government document. And posted the links to both of those sources.The population objective was 6500 they reduced the objective to 4500 and still over killed the animals. It was a targeted reduction by the department to adress social tolerance. You seem to know all so I'll stop.https://www.yakimaherald.com/sports/outdoors/troubling-decline-falling-elk-populations-bring-hunting-reductions/article_f8725d29-b19e-503d-af9a-0c1c18054831.htmlThe colockum was an intentional herd reduction. I believe they reduced their objectives as well....
Full article at the link above but two specific paragraphs in this that were the biggest takeaways for me are:
1.) "Local Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife biologist Jeff Bernatowicz said no studies have been done on area calves and researchers don’t know why their survival numbers are historically low. Until that trend reverses, hunters must pay the price with fewer permits available and shortened seasons for archers."
Why have no studies been done on this?
2.) "Bernatowicz noted hunters could also see negative effects from a pair of factors outside their control. Access to the Yakima Training Center will be limited this fall by heavy training activity, and unofficial reports from one tribe show total tribal harvest may be exceeding the number of new branched bulls in the herd, according to the wildlife department."
So the tribe is self reporting that they're literally killing off the bulls? Killing more bulls then are being recruited as calves each year. Wow. Also the Colockum herd has declined as well. They're currently at 4,133 elk up there and the WDFW's goal is 6,000.
According to the hunting prospects that were published last week, both herds are below their population objectives. And just a few years ago the Colockum herd was over 6,000 elk.
https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/02103/district_8_hunting_prospects_2019.pdf
Post by: jackson7 on September 13, 2019, 11:28:47 PM
Anyone have a handle on how many deer and elk are poached by non natives.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on September 13, 2019, 11:30:49 PM
Post by: rtspring on September 14, 2019, 04:00:40 AM
I think some local bios need to take a walk around the woods. I've spent an absurd amount of time in the hills this year looking for elk and as I predicted, the cuts were very knee jerk. So many elk around and calf numbers are off the charts.
You don’t say!!! Some people don’t know what the hell they are talking about!!!
Post by: dvolmer on September 16, 2019, 08:33:08 AM
It's hard to manage anything when the rules are so different between the parties involved.
Bingo!!!! And now the increased demand for trophy hunting (driven by outdoor TV, Governor tags, and magazines etc, etc) the Natives are cashing in. 15 years ago, the natives took animals to feed their families. They could care less about horns and trophy size. They just wanted a fat cow to get them through the winter. Now with the increase demand for trophy animals their hunting has changed. Non-Native hunting has changed too. The demand for trophy animals and the "trophy animal hunting experience" has had an interesting affect on hunting and future hunting opportunities. A good matching set of elk sheds is worth hundreds of dollars. a Great skull mount of trophy antlers are worth in the thousands. There isn't an answer to all of this because their is no accountability and our liberal state will never be able to hold the natives accountable if they are actually over-harvesting. It looks really bad for the long term for the non-resident native hunters in this state and the elk herds of the state.
Post by: dreamingbig on September 16, 2019, 10:23:45 AM
1. Increased predators - bear and cougar problem since baiting and hounds were banned
2. Introduction of wolf - no management plan to speak of
3. Continued Indian harvest with no intention of pulling back. I say Indian because I have seen multiple bumper stickers lately that state, “you are on Indian land.” So if they use the term I guess it is fair game.
Idaho non resident tags sold out this year for a reason.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: elkboy on September 16, 2019, 11:28:55 AM
Perhaps another part of the equation.In most states, estimated to be equal to legal harvest.
Anyone have a handle on how many deer and elk are poached by non natives.
Post by: PlateauNDN on September 16, 2019, 12:01:42 PM
:chuckle:
Post by: Tinmaniac on September 16, 2019, 12:30:41 PM
Alright, there's to much scientific possibilities being presented and that wasn't the purpose of this thread so let's keep this on track. Indians did it, all of it and only the Indians and that's final.Perhaps you could educate all of us on what your allowed to do while the rest of aren't.Seasons,bag limits what rules do you follow when off the rez while hunting and fishing.?.When off rez do the tribes follow rules set by the state to help sustain management objectives?Do the tribes open their doors and allow non -natives to hunt on the rez free of charge?What happens if I get caught hunting on the rez without permission?
:chuckle:
Post by: Special T on September 16, 2019, 12:44:42 PM
I think some local bios need to take a walk around the woods. I've spent an absurd amount of time in the hills this year looking for elk and as I predicted, the cuts were very knee jerk. So many elk around and calf numbers are off the charts.
A couple of points that need to be highlighted. While anecdotal examples are useful they cannot be extrapolated across the whole herd. 2 years ago there was no snow to speak of to drive the elk down for a good count, and the season before had a bad winterkill. https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2019-01/district08.pdf
I understand that there are frustrations with Biologists, and some have a particular point or issue to drive home. If you think this about Jeff Bernatowicz i suggest you ask around.
We know that high numbers of predators are an issue. We also know that while the Department doesnt have any wolves documented S of I 90 they know they are there. The combination of Cats and influence of wolves forcing elk back into the timber will have a huge effect. The yakima herd is the crown jewel of the state because of its size. WHEN predators are shown to reduce numbers, and then License purchases the department will take note. I believe some already understand this. My evidence is the change in how the director has treated predator related issues compared to past leadership
Post by: Special T on September 16, 2019, 12:46:47 PM
Alright, there's to much scientific possibilities being presented and that wasn't the purpose of this thread so let's keep this on track. Indians did it, all of it and only the Indians and that's final.
:chuckle:
So whats it gonna take for you and your buddies to start running more dogs on cats?
The Skagit valley has more than a few Tar Heals we could send you to train you up!
Post by: PlateauNDN on September 16, 2019, 01:50:35 PM
Alright, there's to much scientific possibilities being presented and that wasn't the purpose of this thread so let's keep this on track. Indians did it, all of it and only the Indians and that's final.Perhaps you could educate all of us on what your allowed to do while the rest of aren't.Seasons,bag limits what rules do you follow when off the rez while hunting and fishing.?.When off rez do the tribes follow rules set by the state to help sustain management objectives?Do the tribes open their doors and allow non -natives to hunt on the rez free of charge?What happens if I get caught hunting on the rez without permission?
:chuckle:
Why should I continue to try? There's more than enough tribal experts already here. I've spent time upon time, I've done my due diligence, I've made the case and when I asked for a little help I got chastised here and within my own community.
After a while it just gets tiresome, old and eventually you just move on. I haven't quite moved on but I also haven't quit. I just pick an choose my battles even more carefully.
:tup:
Post by: PlateauNDN on September 16, 2019, 01:51:51 PM
Alright, there's to much scientific possibilities being presented and that wasn't the purpose of this thread so let's keep this on track. Indians did it, all of it and only the Indians and that's final.
:chuckle:
So whats it gonna take for you and your buddies to start running more dogs on cats?
The Skagit valley has more than a few Tar Heals we could send you to train you up!
It would take a lot of scientificy stuff and someone to really push it
Post by: dvolmer on September 16, 2019, 02:29:49 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on September 16, 2019, 02:52:30 PM
Well when jerky is in demand you need to kill bullsThis *censored* and his followers have a lot to do with the destruction of OUR elk, Plat knows how many he kills, but I don't blame him for not throwing whitefoot to the flames, he is a tribal member. I'd defend my family to the death as well. We will never know just how many bulls this guy and his buddies kill to sell jerky and antlers, but you know damn well its too many. I respect the heck out of you plat, you know that, but it's time to call it like it is. The yakama's need limits to the amount they kill, they need to follow their own rules. Are the yakama's the only reason this herd is declining, no, but I'd bet my paycheck they are a huge part of it. Cats, wolves, native over harvest by a FEW, and poaching by non natives. But even poaching by non natives don't add up to the fast decline we have seen. Flame on folks
Edit to remove name calling. Rainier10
Post by: Whitefoot on September 17, 2019, 10:22:42 AM
Well when jerky is in demand you need to kill bulls
What's wrong with cows? :dunno: :dunno:
Post by: bobcat on September 17, 2019, 10:24:54 AM
Well when jerky is in demand you need to kill bulls
What's wrong with cows? :dunno: :dunno:
I'd guess the problem with cows is it's not a year around season like bulls.
Post by: Whitefoot on September 17, 2019, 10:30:37 AM
Post by: Tbar on September 17, 2019, 11:28:42 AM
Post by: Whitefoot on September 17, 2019, 11:42:55 AM
Post by: Tbar on September 17, 2019, 11:48:47 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on September 17, 2019, 11:51:16 AM
Post by: Tbar on September 17, 2019, 11:55:41 AM
Aaron, Would you be willing to be honest and tell us how many bulls you have killed in the past few years? Also, when this subject comes up about your jerky business, we want to know why you shoot bulls instead of cows? Cow meat is much better, imhoCan you produce the number of elk harvested in the name of conflict by the state?
Post by: trophyhunt on September 17, 2019, 11:57:36 AM
i have no clue about that, maybe someone on here knows.Aaron, Would you be willing to be honest and tell us how many bulls you have killed in the past few years? Also, when this subject comes up about your jerky business, we want to know why you shoot bulls instead of cows? Cow meat is much better, imhoCan you produce the number of elk harvested in the name of conflict by the state?
Post by: Woodchuck on September 17, 2019, 12:00:01 PM
Post by: jackelope on September 17, 2019, 12:01:43 PM
I'm just gonna go ahead and punch in on this one.
Post by: Whitefoot on September 17, 2019, 12:05:34 PM
Post by: ballpark on September 17, 2019, 12:07:01 PM
It is a combination of factors.Idaho Non Resident tags sell out every year :tup:
1. Increased predators - bear and cougar problem since baiting and hounds were banned
2. Introduction of wolf - no management plan to speak of
3. Continued Indian harvest with no intention of pulling back. I say Indian because I have seen multiple bumper stickers lately that state, “you are on Indian land.” So if they use the term I guess it is fair game.
Idaho non resident tags sold out this year for a reason.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Rainier10 on September 17, 2019, 12:09:32 PM
:hello: everyone.
"I am just here so I don't get fined."
Name calling has been edited out, keep it civil.
Post by: jackelope on September 17, 2019, 12:23:20 PM
Post by: h20hunter on September 17, 2019, 12:24:53 PM
Post by: jackelope on September 17, 2019, 12:33:37 PM
Aaron, Would you be willing to be honest and tell us how many bulls you have killed in the past few years? Also, when this subject comes up about your jerky business, we want to know why you shoot bulls instead of cows? Cow meat is much better, imhoCan you produce the number of elk harvested in the name of conflict by the state?
Can anyone? The state can produce harvest numbers as a whole. I can't figure out specifics after a brief look.
Can the Yakama tribe produce the number of elk harvested by tribal hunters at all?
Legit question. I have no idea.
Post by: Tbar on September 17, 2019, 12:35:42 PM
Are damage numbers included in your table?Aaron, Would you be willing to be honest and tell us how many bulls you have killed in the past few years? Also, when this subject comes up about your jerky business, we want to know why you shoot bulls instead of cows? Cow meat is much better, imhoCan you produce the number of elk harvested in the name of conflict by the state?
Can anyone? The state can produce harvest numbers as a whole. I can't figure out specifics after a brief look.
Can the Yakama tribe produce the number of elk harvested by tribal hunters at all?
Legit question. I have no idea.
Post by: jackelope on September 17, 2019, 12:36:47 PM
Are damage numbers included in your table?Aaron, Would you be willing to be honest and tell us how many bulls you have killed in the past few years? Also, when this subject comes up about your jerky business, we want to know why you shoot bulls instead of cows? Cow meat is much better, imhoCan you produce the number of elk harvested in the name of conflict by the state?
Can anyone? The state can produce harvest numbers as a whole. I can't figure out specifics after a brief look.
Can the Yakama tribe produce the number of elk harvested by tribal hunters at all?
Legit question. I have no idea.
Like I said, I couldn't figure out specifics. When you say damage hunts, do you mean MH type hunts or the ones they issue to landowners/farmers/etc?
Can the tribe produce any numbers at all?
Post by: Tbar on September 17, 2019, 12:37:04 PM
I'd be curious to know if anyone from either side would be willing to have a civil discussion without slinging mud?Am I out of order your honor?
Post by: Tbar on September 17, 2019, 12:38:14 PM
Both. There is no reporting mechanism provided by the state.Are damage numbers included in your table?Aaron, Would you be willing to be honest and tell us how many bulls you have killed in the past few years? Also, when this subject comes up about your jerky business, we want to know why you shoot bulls instead of cows? Cow meat is much better, imhoCan you produce the number of elk harvested in the name of conflict by the state?
Can anyone? The state can produce harvest numbers as a whole. I can't figure out specifics after a brief look.
Can the Yakama tribe produce the number of elk harvested by tribal hunters at all?
Legit question. I have no idea.
Like I said, I couldn't figure out specifics. When you say damage hunts, do you mean MH type hunts or the ones they issue to landowners/farmers/etc?
Post by: jackelope on September 17, 2019, 12:38:25 PM
I'd be curious to know if anyone from either side would be willing to have a civil discussion without slinging mud?Am I out of order your honor?
Nobody's out of order yet.
:chuckle:
Post by: jmscon on September 17, 2019, 12:39:55 PM
There is for master hunter and the state knows how many landowner tags are given out every year. Someone has to know within +/- 10% of the number of landowner tags filled.Both. There is no reporting mechanism provided by the state.Are damage numbers included in your table?Aaron, Would you be willing to be honest and tell us how many bulls you have killed in the past few years? Also, when this subject comes up about your jerky business, we want to know why you shoot bulls instead of cows? Cow meat is much better, imhoCan you produce the number of elk harvested in the name of conflict by the state?
Can anyone? The state can produce harvest numbers as a whole. I can't figure out specifics after a brief look.
Can the Yakama tribe produce the number of elk harvested by tribal hunters at all?
Legit question. I have no idea.
Like I said, I couldn't figure out specifics. When you say damage hunts, do you mean MH type hunts or the ones they issue to landowners/farmers/etc?
Post by: jackelope on September 17, 2019, 12:41:46 PM
Both. There is no reporting mechanism provided by the state.Are damage numbers included in your table?Aaron, Would you be willing to be honest and tell us how many bulls you have killed in the past few years? Also, when this subject comes up about your jerky business, we want to know why you shoot bulls instead of cows? Cow meat is much better, imhoCan you produce the number of elk harvested in the name of conflict by the state?
Can anyone? The state can produce harvest numbers as a whole. I can't figure out specifics after a brief look.
Can the Yakama tribe produce the number of elk harvested by tribal hunters at all?
Legit question. I have no idea.
Like I said, I couldn't figure out specifics. When you say damage hunts, do you mean MH type hunts or the ones they issue to landowners/farmers/etc?
I know assuming is never the best practice, but I assumed the MH hunts were included in the special permits category of the table. I don't know. I'd be willing to email them, but my gut tells me you already know the actual answer to the question.
Post by: Tbar on September 17, 2019, 12:42:07 PM
Maybe with a "troubling decline" the state has some incentive to engage. But, it's going to have to get past the walls that have been built largely on jealousy and a false narrative.Are damage numbers included in your table?Aaron, Would you be willing to be honest and tell us how many bulls you have killed in the past few years? Also, when this subject comes up about your jerky business, we want to know why you shoot bulls instead of cows? Cow meat is much better, imhoCan you produce the number of elk harvested in the name of conflict by the state?
Can anyone? The state can produce harvest numbers as a whole. I can't figure out specifics after a brief look.
Can the Yakama tribe produce the number of elk harvested by tribal hunters at all?
Legit question. I have no idea.
Like I said, I couldn't figure out specifics. When you say damage hunts, do you mean MH type hunts or the ones they issue to landowners/farmers/etc?
Can the tribe produce any numbers at all?
Post by: Woodchuck on September 17, 2019, 12:42:13 PM
Post by: jackelope on September 17, 2019, 12:42:58 PM
@Time Immemorial
@running_bull
@PlateauNDN
Does the tribe track elk harvest numbers at all? Do you guys report your harvests?
Post by: Tbar on September 17, 2019, 12:43:33 PM
They know! It's also a missing element when talking numbers.There is for master hunter and the state knows how many landowner tags are given out every year. Someone has to know within +/- 10% of the number of landowner tags filled.Both. There is no reporting mechanism provided by the state.Are damage numbers included in your table?Aaron, Would you be willing to be honest and tell us how many bulls you have killed in the past few years? Also, when this subject comes up about your jerky business, we want to know why you shoot bulls instead of cows? Cow meat is much better, imhoCan you produce the number of elk harvested in the name of conflict by the state?
Can anyone? The state can produce harvest numbers as a whole. I can't figure out specifics after a brief look.
Can the Yakama tribe produce the number of elk harvested by tribal hunters at all?
Legit question. I have no idea.
Like I said, I couldn't figure out specifics. When you say damage hunts, do you mean MH type hunts or the ones they issue to landowners/farmers/etc?
Post by: jackelope on September 17, 2019, 12:43:54 PM
Maybe with a "troubling decline" the state has some incentive to engage. But, it's going to have to get past the walls that have been built largely on jealousy and a false narrative.Are damage numbers included in your table?Aaron, Would you be willing to be honest and tell us how many bulls you have killed in the past few years? Also, when this subject comes up about your jerky business, we want to know why you shoot bulls instead of cows? Cow meat is much better, imhoCan you produce the number of elk harvested in the name of conflict by the state?
Can anyone? The state can produce harvest numbers as a whole. I can't figure out specifics after a brief look.
Can the Yakama tribe produce the number of elk harvested by tribal hunters at all?
Legit question. I have no idea.
Like I said, I couldn't figure out specifics. When you say damage hunts, do you mean MH type hunts or the ones they issue to landowners/farmers/etc?
Can the tribe produce any numbers at all?
Do you mean engage with the tribe?
Post by: B4noon on September 17, 2019, 12:47:08 PM
Post by: jmscon on September 17, 2019, 12:49:25 PM
@plateauNDN
Plat you once said that Aaron Blanchard had an idea that you thought would work for either helping tribal members report or to help the state with their counts to include tribal harvest, or something like that. You said it was his plan but I was wondering if you or Karl could elaborate and or throw out a couple of the ideas so that some on here could help keep those ideas out here and moving.
Post by: Tbar on September 17, 2019, 12:51:54 PM
It has absolutely nothing to do with what meat is better that's just a side product its called power and greed and the furthest drift from tradition as one can get my forefathers would frown upon such actions it has gone on way to long and unfortunately it will continue until nothing is left when hands are tied the resource is vulnerable and the resource will be what pays the greatest cost in the end as long as there is money to be made and an axe to grind individuals will take advantage of the situation rather then to see the big picture and become a solution to a problem, indigenous ancestory all the way to newly aquired citzenship provides rights and privelages that should be respected an not abused to show power like it or not mistakes were made in the past to all walks of life nobody can fix that we can only learn from it and move forward in a better way then what took place in the past and continuing the battle only leaves us in the past move forward from it dont harbor it and certainly never take it out on the resources that were put here for all to respect, the resources not only elk deserve better to assure that they are here for future generations and that respect should be shared equally from all sides and parties. hunting is a tradition for many cultures and we should work together to make it the best it can be the resource deserves itAre you talking Ag producers and their disregard for a public resource? (Bolded) If so you're spot on!
Post by: Rainier10 on September 17, 2019, 12:54:28 PM
I am not sure if landowner damage tags are accounted for. I am sure an email to WDFW could answer that.
I will send in a request and report back.
Post by: jackelope on September 17, 2019, 12:55:18 PM
general tags, permits tags and masterhunter general and permit are all accounted for in those statistics they release.
I am not sure if landowner damage tags are accounted for. I am sure an email to WDFW could answer that.
I will send in a request and report back.
I'm assuming Tbar is looking for specifics. Like, how many were MH hunts, etc.
Post by: Rainier10 on September 17, 2019, 01:11:53 PM
Gotcha. @Tbar is that your concern? Is your concern that MH damage hunts are not about harvesting animals for herd health but more about saving farmers crops?general tags, permits tags and masterhunter general and permit are all accounted for in those statistics they release.
I am not sure if landowner damage tags are accounted for. I am sure an email to WDFW could answer that.
I will send in a request and report back.
I'm assuming Tbar is looking for specifics. Like, how many were MH hunts, etc.
I can say that the MH area that is below my cabin is working. Elk were thick in the area when it started and now not so much. The hunt has pressured the elk to moving east into the vantage area. It has created lots of vehicle impacts but it has saved the farmers crops and fences.
I will let you know if the master hunter harvest numbers are included in the harvest report but my guess is yes. I am sure they can tell me how many elk are harvested in 3911 or 3912 as well.
It might not be the best system but I think they are trying to track it.
The unanswered question still on the table is "do the tribes track harvest in any way?" Do any of the tribal members here want to chime in and say if they report to someone how many elk they kill and where they kill them?
I report how many I kill, what their sex is, how many points they have on each side, where I kill them and how many days I hunted in each gmu to do it.
If the tribe does track harvest do they get that specific as to how I report?
Post by: TriggerMike on September 17, 2019, 01:23:53 PM
I'd be curious to know if anyone from either side would be willing to have a civil discussion without slinging mud?
I am willing. I want this to actually get figured out.
Post by: dvolmer on September 17, 2019, 01:54:18 PM
On the cow verse bull meat for Jerky, All I can say is I can make Jerky out of both and you cant tell the difference. Now a steak or a roast is another issue and thing. Cow is much better. But a native shooting a 700 pound bull can make a lot more jerky than shooting a 300 pound cow. Plus the antlers on the bull are worth hundreds of dollars and on a true trophy bull (360 inches plus) is thousands of dollars.
As for being able to do anything about the native hunting, good luck! Not a chance! Why would they report when they don't have too! Yes, some of you will say because it is the right thing to do, but they don't really care. Why does a dog lick his hiney? Because he can. They will hunt with all of the most modern gear and equipment but when they show up in the court system to be challenged they will show up in feathers and loin clothes pounding a drum and singing chants. The liberal left jury will look at them immediately and be appalled that we are even thinking of trying to inforce some sanity into the system and throw it all out of court immediately. That is why WDFW has decided to not waste any more of their recourses fighting them in court. They always loose. Face it fellas, Washington will never address their predator issues no matter if it is wolves, natives, cats, or bears. King County runs this state and will continue to do so. Wolves could be eating children here in eastern Washington on the way to school and the animal activists in King County would insist we do nothing.
It is interesting to me as I hunt other states that the natives all hunt there own rules and their own seasons but only on their reservations. Outside of their reservations they have to follow the same rules as others as it should be. But in Washington and Oregon they have used the liberal court system to their advantage.
Just my two cents on the matter from an old hunter here in eastern Washington that probably doesn't have a lick of sense! You can kiss Washington state good bye when it comes to resident hunting oppurtunities. Mabybe, and I say maybe, someday it will all come crashing down because it is us that are truly funding all of the native hunting and the care and well being of all of these preditors. The natives and the activists don't pay anything! They are just sucking the system dry! It is only in the pocket book that this might (and probably wont) get any attention and solved. So just keep buying those overpriced licenses! (and they are wondering why Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming are selling out on all of their out of state licenses) It is going to get nothing but worse and I mean a lot worse. What I have seen in just the last 5-10 years is scary!!!
Post by: dvolmer on September 17, 2019, 02:12:01 PM
I'd be curious to know if anyone from either side would be willing to have a civil discussion without slinging mud?
I am willing. I want this to actually get figured out.
It never will when one side holds all of the bargaining chips. It will never reach negotiations. Natives don't want to negotiate, they have already won! To them is the question, "for what reason would we negotiate?" We already have our cake and were able to eat it too! Why in Gods green earth would they want to do that. Its like winning the Superbowl game and then agreeing to meet with the loosing team to negotiate who will be the actual champions. Not a chance in #$%@
Post by: trophyhunt on September 17, 2019, 02:34:12 PM
:yeah: 100% true!I'd be curious to know if anyone from either side would be willing to have a civil discussion without slinging mud?
I am willing. I want this to actually get figured out.
It never will when one side holds all of the bargaining chips. It will never reach negotiations. Natives don't want to negotiate, they have already won! To them is the question, "for what reason would we negotiate?" We already have our cake and were able to eat it too! Why in Gods green earth would they want to do that. Its like winning the Superbowl game and then agreeing to meet with the loosing team to negotiate who will be the actual champions. Not a chance in #$%@
Post by: trophyhunt on September 17, 2019, 02:35:55 PM
Post by: dreamingbig on September 17, 2019, 02:39:28 PM
What is the false narrative? I can’t hunt year round nor can I hunt a bull this year. An Indian can. My harvest report is mandatory. Tribal harvest reporting is where?Maybe with a "troubling decline" the state has some incentive to engage. But, it's going to have to get past the walls that have been built largely on jealousy and a false narrative.Are damage numbers included in your table?Aaron, Would you be willing to be honest and tell us how many bulls you have killed in the past few years? Also, when this subject comes up about your jerky business, we want to know why you shoot bulls instead of cows? Cow meat is much better, imhoCan you produce the number of elk harvested in the name of conflict by the state?
Can anyone? The state can produce harvest numbers as a whole. I can't figure out specifics after a brief look.
Can the Yakama tribe produce the number of elk harvested by tribal hunters at all?
Legit question. I have no idea.
Like I said, I couldn't figure out specifics. When you say damage hunts, do you mean MH type hunts or the ones they issue to landowners/farmers/etc?
Can the tribe produce any numbers at all?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Special T on September 17, 2019, 03:06:17 PM
If as much effort was put into having the Yakimas follow the Colvilles lead on predators as complaining we would really get some where.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: PlateauNDN on September 17, 2019, 03:33:41 PM
I mean, who doesn't enjoy being told who they stand up for, who they like or don't like and conduct themselves.
:chuckle:
Post by: Tbar on September 17, 2019, 03:38:33 PM
Come spend a day with me and I believe you'd have a different perspective.What is the false narrative? I can’t hunt year round nor can I hunt a bull this year. An Indian can. My harvest report is mandatory. Tribal harvest reporting is where?Maybe with a "troubling decline" the state has some incentive to engage. But, it's going to have to get past the walls that have been built largely on jealousy and a false narrative.Are damage numbers included in your table?Aaron, Would you be willing to be honest and tell us how many bulls you have killed in the past few years? Also, when this subject comes up about your jerky business, we want to know why you shoot bulls instead of cows? Cow meat is much better, imhoCan you produce the number of elk harvested in the name of conflict by the state?
Can anyone? The state can produce harvest numbers as a whole. I can't figure out specifics after a brief look.
Can the Yakama tribe produce the number of elk harvested by tribal hunters at all?
Legit question. I have no idea.
Like I said, I couldn't figure out specifics. When you say damage hunts, do you mean MH type hunts or the ones they issue to landowners/farmers/etc?
Can the tribe produce any numbers at all?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: dvolmer on September 17, 2019, 03:42:09 PM
It's too bad so many of you focus on what you cant change.The Yakimas don't and won't care about predators until it gets to the point that they cant find any animals to harvest. Until then they could care less. If it ever gets that bad, it will be beyond the ability to reverse and the herds will be past the point of no return. All the jerky man cares about is if he can get the animals he needs to make his product. when the herds are cut in half and the permit numbers are depleted to the point that we cant hunt, he doesn't care as long as he can get his and there is nothing in the way of him getting what he wants until all the animals are gone! You guys are crazy to think that they are going to partner up with resident non-natives. They watch and read these threads and giggle and laugh and insert a comment here and there to stir the pot and let it keep going. Some members on this forum think that if they cater to them and try to talk sense to them that they can understand and make compromises and changes. absolute nonsense! These guys have no intention at all to concede anything or change anything. They have it just the way they want it. Look at Plateau's last post. Notice the giggling emoji. That is all this is to him. He could care less about what you all think and what he likes best is that you do absolutely nothing about it!
If as much effort was put into having the Yakimas follow the Colvilles lead on predators as complaining we would really get some where.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: trophyhunt on September 17, 2019, 03:49:01 PM
Post by: Tbar on September 17, 2019, 03:50:48 PM
I don't know or have the answer to everything but here is a few things I have experienced, My hunting partners brother in law owns an orchard in eastern Washington (I wont tell where because I don't want him to have any fallout). The deer are eating his young trees. He contacted the game dept and they came out and looked at the damage. He gets damage control tags when he wants them. he is not a hunter but some of his friends are. I hunted the orchard two weeks ago on a damage control tag. Most of the tags are either sex tags. He (friends and family) have shot 24 deer off of his orchard in the last 12 months out of season. When he needs a tag they email it over to him and he can give it to whomever he wants to. If they kill a deer they send an email or call the WDFW employee in charge of the program in his area. As far as I can tell, there is no reporting of these results at all in all the statistics that the WDFW provides to the public. Who knows what farmers and where are getting these permits. when we hunted it we were asked to not post pictures on facebook or other areas and to not brag about the hunt so others would not know about it. I think the whole thing is messed up if you ask me. I think these should all be special draws with youth and seniors getting the first shot at the tags. Just my opinion.I thought you didn't lie.... Making blanket statements and promoting a false narrative is no different than an all out lie.
On the cow verse bull meat for Jerky, All I can say is I can make Jerky out of both and you cant tell the difference. Now a steak or a roast is another issue and thing. Cow is much better. But a native shooting a 700 pound bull can make a lot more jerky than shooting a 300 pound cow. Plus the antlers on the bull are worth hundreds of dollars and on a true trophy bull (360 inches plus) is thousands of dollars.
As for being able to do anything about the native hunting, good luck! Not a chance! Why would they report when they don't have too! Yes, some of you will say because it is the right thing to do, but they don't really care. Why does a dog lick his hiney? Because he can. They will hunt with all of the most modern gear and equipment but when they show up in the court system to be challenged they will show up in feathers and loin clothes pounding a drum and singing chants. The liberal left jury will look at them immediately and be appalled that we are even thinking of trying to inforce some sanity into the system and throw it all out of court immediately. That is why WDFW has decided to not waste any more of their recourses fighting them in court. They always loose. Face it fellas, Washington will never address their predator issues no matter if it is wolves, natives, cats, or bears. King County runs this state and will continue to do so. Wolves could be eating children here in eastern Washington on the way to school and the animal activists in King County would insist we do nothing.
It is interesting to me as I hunt other states that the natives all hunt there own rules and their own seasons but only on their reservations. Outside of their reservations they have to follow the same rules as others as it should be. But in Washington and Oregon they have used the liberal court system to their advantage.
Just my two cents on the matter from an old hunter here in eastern Washington that probably doesn't have a lick of sense! You can kiss Washington state good bye when it comes to resident hunting oppurtunities. Mabybe, and I say maybe, someday it will all come crashing down because it is us that are truly funding all of the native hunting and the care and well being of all of these preditors. The natives and the activists don't pay anything! They are just sucking the system dry! It is only in the pocket book that this might (and probably wont) get any attention and solved. So just keep buying those overpriced licenses! (and they are wondering why Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming are selling out on all of their out of state licenses) It is going to get nothing but worse and I mean a lot worse. What I have seen in just the last 5-10 years is scary!!!
Post by: dvolmer on September 17, 2019, 04:00:32 PM
I don't know or have the answer to everything but here is a few things I have experienced, My hunting partners brother in law owns an orchard in eastern Washington (I wont tell where because I don't want him to have any fallout). The deer are eating his young trees. He contacted the game dept and they came out and looked at the damage. He gets damage control tags when he wants them. he is not a hunter but some of his friends are. I hunted the orchard two weeks ago on a damage control tag. Most of the tags are either sex tags. He (friends and family) have shot 24 deer off of his orchard in the last 12 months out of season. When he needs a tag they email it over to him and he can give it to whomever he wants to. If they kill a deer they send an email or call the WDFW employee in charge of the program in his area. As far as I can tell, there is no reporting of these results at all in all the statistics that the WDFW provides to the public. Who knows what farmers and where are getting these permits. when we hunted it we were asked to not post pictures on facebook or other areas and to not brag about the hunt so others would not know about it. I think the whole thing is messed up if you ask me. I think these should all be special draws with youth and seniors getting the first shot at the tags. Just my opinion.I thought you didn't lie.... Making blanket statements and promoting a false narrative is no different than an all out lie.
On the cow verse bull meat for Jerky, All I can say is I can make Jerky out of both and you cant tell the difference. Now a steak or a roast is another issue and thing. Cow is much better. But a native shooting a 700 pound bull can make a lot more jerky than shooting a 300 pound cow. Plus the antlers on the bull are worth hundreds of dollars and on a true trophy bull (360 inches plus) is thousands of dollars.
As for being able to do anything about the native hunting, good luck! Not a chance! Why would they report when they don't have too! Yes, some of you will say because it is the right thing to do, but they don't really care. Why does a dog lick his hiney? Because he can. They will hunt with all of the most modern gear and equipment but when they show up in the court system to be challenged they will show up in feathers and loin clothes pounding a drum and singing chants. The liberal left jury will look at them immediately and be appalled that we are even thinking of trying to inforce some sanity into the system and throw it all out of court immediately. That is why WDFW has decided to not waste any more of their recourses fighting them in court. They always loose. Face it fellas, Washington will never address their predator issues no matter if it is wolves, natives, cats, or bears. King County runs this state and will continue to do so. Wolves could be eating children here in eastern Washington on the way to school and the animal activists in King County would insist we do nothing.
It is interesting to me as I hunt other states that the natives all hunt there own rules and their own seasons but only on their reservations. Outside of their reservations they have to follow the same rules as others as it should be. But in Washington and Oregon they have used the liberal court system to their advantage.
Just my two cents on the matter from an old hunter here in eastern Washington that probably doesn't have a lick of sense! You can kiss Washington state good bye when it comes to resident hunting oppurtunities. Mabybe, and I say maybe, someday it will all come crashing down because it is us that are truly funding all of the native hunting and the care and well being of all of these preditors. The natives and the activists don't pay anything! They are just sucking the system dry! It is only in the pocket book that this might (and probably wont) get any attention and solved. So just keep buying those overpriced licenses! (and they are wondering why Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming are selling out on all of their out of state licenses) It is going to get nothing but worse and I mean a lot worse. What I have seen in just the last 5-10 years is scary!!!
I have no clue what you are talking about. you need to be more specific sorry.
Post by: emac on September 17, 2019, 04:14:53 PM
This is the only way to get something accomplished
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Post by: trophyhunt on September 17, 2019, 04:24:17 PM
I still agree with bobcat. We need to open up the whole state and follow the tribes ,that hunt that area, there regulations. No tags no licenses no bag limit or whatever there regulations are.Yup, been saying that as well for a long time. wdfw doesn't have the balls to do this, but it would certainly get the tribes to the table and even things up.
This is the only way to get something accomplished
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Post by: fishngamereaper on September 17, 2019, 04:39:54 PM
Post by: emac on September 17, 2019, 05:07:57 PM
Should of said "agree with bobcat and trophy hunt" 🤣I still agree with bobcat. We need to open up the whole state and follow the tribes ,that hunt that area, there regulations. No tags no licenses no bag limit or whatever there regulations are.Yup, been saying that as well for a long time. wdfw doesn't have the balls to do this, but it would certainly get the tribes to the table and even things up.
This is the only way to get something accomplished
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Post by: PlateauNDN on September 17, 2019, 06:00:45 PM
I was doing things on behalf of the resources log before I came here and was doing them while I was here and will continue after.
Why don't you go back and do some research or ask people here that are non-natives that ive met with and had lengthy discussions with in person.
Do you think this thread is new? I remember it getting so bad here that no matter what I said, what I showed or what I did didn't matter to some.
SOME, not all, a FEW bad apples ruined it for the rest of the HW members. I couldn't post anything anywhere without coming under attack. For whatever reason I was pegged as the representative of the tribe here, supposedly whatever a tribal member did was my direct fault and knowledge and I could've prevented it. Really??? Me???
So yes, I put a laughing emoticon at the end because I'm leaning more and more towards ignoring these types of threads because no matter what I say most won't listen.
Like I said, who else enjoys being told by others how I am, who I am and what I do when they're completely wrong.
Oh well...flame on.
Post by: Odell on September 17, 2019, 06:05:47 PM
It’s already federal law on waterfowl. You can’t even sell a mount.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: trophyhunt on September 17, 2019, 06:09:36 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on September 17, 2019, 06:11:40 PM
Personally I’d like to see a law that bans selling any part of game animal. No jerky. No antlers. No sheds. Nothing.it is against tribal law to sell the meat, but when elders don’t care the law means nothing.
It’s already federal law on waterfowl. You can’t even sell a mount.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: elkrack on September 17, 2019, 06:30:14 PM
Post by: jackelope on September 17, 2019, 07:54:43 PM
Giggling emoji? You don't know me know me, not what I've done on behalf of the resources you're attempting to speak for. Your claims and accusations that we all are the same are baseless, unfounded and ignorant. There's over 11,000 Yakamas and I don't know even half of them.
I was doing things on behalf of the resources log before I came here and was doing them while I was here and will continue after.
Why don't you go back and do some research or ask people here that are non-natives that ive met with and had lengthy discussions with in person.
Do you think this thread is new? I remember it getting so bad here that no matter what I said, what I showed or what I did didn't matter to some.
SOME, not all, a FEW bad apples ruined it for the rest of the HW members. I couldn't post anything anywhere without coming under attack. For whatever reason I was pegged as the representative of the tribe here, supposedly whatever a tribal member did was my direct fault and knowledge and I could've prevented it. Really??? Me???
So yes, I put a laughing emoticon at the end because I'm leaning more and more towards ignoring these types of threads because no matter what I say most won't listen.
Like I said, who else enjoys being told by others how I am, who I am and what I do when they're completely wrong.
Oh well...flame on.
Anyone flames this man ends up risking a hunt wa vacation.
Post by: Special T on September 17, 2019, 08:40:47 PM
I've been told that it is bad form for tribal folks to talk about it with non tribal folks. Consider his insite a blessing because otherwise you would be shouting at the wind.
So many of you want to tilt at windmills ignoring reality.
THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE IS PREDATORS!
Who has the most leeway when it comes to hunting? The very thing that frustrates you could crack the department on predators. Anti hunting groups are afraid of tribes... You may not realize it, but the same reason you are frustrated with tribes... is a tool for management around the state if you can wrap your head around it.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: jackelope on September 17, 2019, 09:32:03 PM
Just sayin.
Post by: Dan-o on September 17, 2019, 09:34:48 PM
Giggling emoji? You don't know me know me, not what I've done on behalf of the resources you're attempting to speak for. Your claims and accusations that we all are the same are baseless, unfounded and ignorant. There's over 11,000 Yakamas and I don't know even half of them.
I was doing things on behalf of the resources log before I came here and was doing them while I was here and will continue after.
Why don't you go back and do some research or ask people here that are non-natives that ive met with and had lengthy discussions with in person.
Do you think this thread is new? I remember it getting so bad here that no matter what I said, what I showed or what I did didn't matter to some.
SOME, not all, a FEW bad apples ruined it for the rest of the HW members. I couldn't post anything anywhere without coming under attack. For whatever reason I was pegged as the representative of the tribe here, supposedly whatever a tribal member did was my direct fault and knowledge and I could've prevented it. Really??? Me???
So yes, I put a laughing emoticon at the end because I'm leaning more and more towards ignoring these types of threads because no matter what I say most won't listen.
Like I said, who else enjoys being told by others how I am, who I am and what I do when they're completely wrong.
Oh well...flame on.
Sad to see this crap degenerate again......
Such broad statements about the tribe.
I saw where a white guy robbed a bank today, so I guess I condone bank robbery.
(I mean, as long as we're painting with broad brushes, right?)
Plat, thanks for sticking around.
Post by: Special T on September 17, 2019, 09:44:56 PM
I’d probably let Plat decide if he wants to “represent” the tribe before appointing him their rep.
Just sayin.
Fair enough... My point being is that Plat has engaged us more than anyone else with dialogue. IMO if all you read online on this issue he provides the most insight. Im not saying that I agree with everything he says, but without him conversation is a black hole...
Post by: rtspring on September 17, 2019, 09:52:41 PM
Giggling emoji? You don't know me know me, not what I've done on behalf of the resources you're attempting to speak for. Your claims and accusations that we all are the same are baseless, unfounded and ignorant. There's over 11,000 Yakamas and I don't know even half of them.
I was doing things on behalf of the resources log before I came here and was doing them while I was here and will continue after.
Why don't you go back and do some research or ask people here that are non-natives that ive met with and had lengthy discussions with in person.
Do you think this thread is new? I remember it getting so bad here that no matter what I said, what I showed or what I did didn't matter to some.
SOME, not all, a FEW bad apples ruined it for the rest of the HW members. I couldn't post anything anywhere without coming under attack. For whatever reason I was pegged as the representative of the tribe here, supposedly whatever a tribal member did was my direct fault and knowledge and I could've prevented it. Really??? Me???
So yes, I put a laughing emoticon at the end because I'm leaning more and more towards ignoring these types of threads because no matter what I say most won't listen.
Like I said, who else enjoys being told by others how I am, who I am and what I do when they're completely wrong.
Oh well...flame on.
I’ve had many a conversation and hunts with my indian brother!! We both bleed the same red blood! Listen to the truth and you just might find the truth...
Post by: Tinmaniac on September 18, 2019, 07:35:47 AM
This makes no sense.Bank robbery is illegal and not condoned by anyone no matter the color of skin or sovereignty.Giggling emoji? You don't know me know me, not what I've done on behalf of the resources you're attempting to speak for. Your claims and accusations that we all are the same are baseless, unfounded and ignorant. There's over 11,000 Yakamas and I don't know even half of them.
I was doing things on behalf of the resources log before I came here and was doing them while I was here and will continue after.
Why don't you go back and do some research or ask people here that are non-natives that ive met with and had lengthy discussions with in person.
Do you think this thread is new? I remember it getting so bad here that no matter what I said, what I showed or what I did didn't matter to some.
SOME, not all, a FEW bad apples ruined it for the rest of the HW members. I couldn't post anything anywhere without coming under attack. For whatever reason I was pegged as the representative of the tribe here, supposedly whatever a tribal member did was my direct fault and knowledge and I could've prevented it. Really??? Me???
So yes, I put a laughing emoticon at the end because I'm leaning more and more towards ignoring these types of threads because no matter what I say most won't listen.
Like I said, who else enjoys being told by others how I am, who I am and what I do when they're completely wrong.
Oh well...flame on.
Sad to see this crap degenerate again......
Such broad statements about the tribe.
I saw where a white guy robbed a bank today, so I guess I condone bank robbery.
(I mean, as long as we're painting with broad brushes, right?)
Plat, thanks for sticking around.
Post by: Dan-o on September 18, 2019, 09:02:17 AM
This makes no sense.Bank robbery is illegal and not condoned by anyone no matter the color of skin or sovereignty.Giggling emoji? You don't know me know me, not what I've done on behalf of the resources you're attempting to speak for. Your claims and accusations that we all are the same are baseless, unfounded and ignorant. There's over 11,000 Yakamas and I don't know even half of them.
I was doing things on behalf of the resources log before I came here and was doing them while I was here and will continue after.
Why don't you go back and do some research or ask people here that are non-natives that ive met with and had lengthy discussions with in person.
Do you think this thread is new? I remember it getting so bad here that no matter what I said, what I showed or what I did didn't matter to some.
SOME, not all, a FEW bad apples ruined it for the rest of the HW members. I couldn't post anything anywhere without coming under attack. For whatever reason I was pegged as the representative of the tribe here, supposedly whatever a tribal member did was my direct fault and knowledge and I could've prevented it. Really??? Me???
So yes, I put a laughing emoticon at the end because I'm leaning more and more towards ignoring these types of threads because no matter what I say most won't listen.
Like I said, who else enjoys being told by others how I am, who I am and what I do when they're completely wrong.
Oh well...flame on.
Sad to see this crap degenerate again......
Such broad statements about the tribe.
I saw where a white guy robbed a bank today, so I guess I condone bank robbery.
(I mean, as long as we're painting with broad brushes, right?)
Plat, thanks for sticking around.
You missed my point.
My point is that painting people groups with a broad brush is not right.
If you read through this thread, you'll see people saying "The Yakama's this" and "The Yakama's that.".
Saying that about the Yakama's makes no more sense than saying since a white guy robbed a bank, we are all like that.
I don't know many Yakama's. I know a few.
Funny thing...... They are people.
There are awesome Yakama people and lousy Yakama people.
There are awesome white people and lousy White people.
Painting a large group of people with a broad brush is just plain wrong.
And racism is always ugly.
I have no qualms condemning the actions of an individual, if warranted.
I do reject painting a group based on an individual's actions.
There is a larger issue here, and I'd love to see us work together to resolve it....... Covert racist crap will only hinder that.
Have a good day.
P.S.
I'm not calling you a racist.
When I read this thread, I see typically subtle racist comments.
If you read it differently, I guess that's ok.
adjective: racist
showing or feeling discrimination or prejudice against people of other races
Post by: TriggerMike on September 18, 2019, 09:08:32 AM
Can we get back on topic? The news article stated that the tribe reported over harvest of bulls, so that leads me to believe they due in fact keep track of harvest in one way or another? Is it 1% of all harvest or 99%? That's what I want to know. If anyone from the Yakama Nation could answer this simple question it would go a long ways toward figuring this out.....
Post by: bobcat on September 18, 2019, 09:53:37 AM
Post by: dvolmer on September 18, 2019, 10:15:33 AM
Dan- But it is the entire Yakama nation that is responsible for killing too many elk. Their leaders allow it to happen. Their seasons are much too liberal. There is no limit to how many elk an individual person can harvest per year. Again, NO LIMIT. And, the season is year around for bulls. Cows it's four months long, from August 1 to December 31. So, you can't blame individuals who kill dozens, or hundreds, of elk every year. They're not in violation of the law. And no, it's not racist to say that they are killing too many elk. It's simply stating a fact. The problem with the Yakima elk herd is NOT predators. It is the Yakama Indians.Amen!!
Post by: PlateauNDN on September 18, 2019, 10:40:06 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on September 18, 2019, 10:49:37 AM
Post by: Stein on September 18, 2019, 10:50:18 AM
So, put yourself in the other boots and ask yourself why would they release any data or want to work with WDFW?
There has to be a mutually beneficial reason for both sides to come to the table. Right now, it is not in the tribe's best interest and WDFW doesn't really care. Unless someone figures out a way for both sides to come out ahead nothing will change.
As imperfect as the salmon setting season is, both sides need to agree on the total harvest allowable and then each side's share or nobody goes fishing. From that, other partnerships have been built and we have great things like tribal hatcheries.
I place a good deal of blame on the state (separate somewhat from WDFW). For the most part, Olympia prefers easy stuff like throwing an occasional few bucks, holding press conferences on diversity and sympathetic talk rather than doing hard work to permanently make things better.
It may not be possible, but it would be a good thing to at least try.
Post by: bobcat on September 18, 2019, 10:50:45 AM
Bobcat, it's Sept 1 thru Dec 31. If you're going to complain then get the facts right. And no, it's not the whole tribe nor the elders, but again ALL the HW tribal experts know our politics and so I leave the explanation to you guys.
Okay, I changed my post from August to September, I did have the 4 months correct!
And no, I don't know your tribe's politics, but I don't need to. All I'm saying is the lack of any kind of reasonable limitations on the number of elk harvested by each member IS A PROBLEM! Look at other tribes in the state. They have limits on the number of animals a person can take. The Yakama tribe does not. And we, the non Indians, have an extremely small number of bull permits available to us. I'm pretty sure you see it as a problem just as I do.
Post by: ctwiggs1 on September 18, 2019, 10:54:48 AM
Post by: Special T on September 18, 2019, 11:14:24 AM
Dan- But it is the entire Yakama nation that is responsible for killing too many elk. Their leaders allow it to happen. Their seasons are much too liberal. There is no limit to how many elk an individual person can harvest per year. Again, NO LIMIT. And, the season is year around for bulls. Cows it's four months long, from September 1 to December 31. So, you can't blame individuals who kill dozens, or hundreds, of elk every year. They're not in violation of the law. And no, it's not racist to say that they are killing too many elk. It's simply stating a fact. The problem with the Yakima elk herd is NOT predators. It is the Yakama Indians.
Since there is no reporting any number we use is a shot in the dark. Is this problematic? Yes... Is it possible to manage the resource if these numbers are not known? No it doesnt seem possible.
Post by: Tinmaniac on September 18, 2019, 11:23:55 AM
Post by: kentrek on September 18, 2019, 11:33:48 AM
I dont see plat attacking us on how WE destroyed the st Helens herd...
Post by: Rainier10 on September 18, 2019, 11:44:28 AM
Obviously we are all idiots.Plat,you could educate all of us on what it means to be tribal.We all live under the same flag yet the rules are so different.Is it any wonder why there is bad blood?Coming on here and fanning the flames is easy.You are actually in a unique position of helping to bridge the divide in the small community that exists here.How you choose to use that position is entirely up to you.I hope you don't think this post was an actual olive branch and you are not fanning the flames yourself.
This type of post is everything but helpful in bridging the gap IMHO.
Post by: trophyhunt on September 18, 2019, 11:49:39 AM
Lol this is laughable....the non tribal should feel far from being on a high horse of sound managementwe, or the Wdfw? You can’t compare the two units, Wdfw was trying to kill off elk that have a problem with hoof rot, totally different than what’s happening to the Yakima herd.
I dont see plat attacking us on how WE destroyed the st Helens herd...
Post by: Tinmaniac on September 18, 2019, 11:54:46 AM
Facts are fanning the flames?Who here is more of an expert on tribal matters than a tribal member?Obviously we are all idiots.Plat,you could educate all of us on what it means to be tribal.We all live under the same flag yet the rules are so different.Is it any wonder why there is bad blood?Coming on here and fanning the flames is easy.You are actually in a unique position of helping to bridge the divide in the small community that exists here.How you choose to use that position is entirely up to you.I hope you don't think this post was an actual olive branch and you are not fanning the flames yourself.
This type of post is everything but helpful in bridging the gap IMHO.
Post by: Rainier10 on September 18, 2019, 11:56:35 AM
Post by: ghosthunter on September 18, 2019, 11:57:54 AM
But I have read a lot of his posts. I doubt that he is any more happier with the situation than anyone posting here.
And I don't think calling him out to fight your perceived battle does any good.
He has treaty rights and no doubt he wants to keep them. As all Indians would.
However if in fact there is over harvest by the tribe. And so far there is no evidence presented that I can see to prove that because there are no hard numbers.
The only thing hunters who are concerned with this can do is bring it to the public eye. The tribe might reign in their hunters if they got sufficient pressure from the press and the public eye. Having treaty rights and abusing treaty rights are two sides of the coin.
With any group there are going to be folks who don't give a......Those folks will do what they want regardless of the consequences even if hurts them in the long run. Elk, Deer, Bear, Guns, doesn't matter with out some rules it all gets abused.
I have no doubt Plat has had this discussion with in his circle. But he is out numbered. :twocents:
Post by: Woodchuck on September 18, 2019, 11:58:13 AM
Post by: PlateauNDN on September 18, 2019, 12:00:26 PM
You are actually in a unique position of helping to bridge the divide in the small community that exists here.How you choose to use that position is entirely up to you.
You obviously didn't comprehend a previous post of mine where I explained what happened in the past when I tried and tried and tried and tried and tried and tried to "use my unique position" here. Ask some that have posted in this thread, it got ugly I ended up just throwing in the towel and left for almost a year.
You're speaking as if you're the 1st or only person to know or suggest what you said above. As I mentioned, I came here to educate and provide another story and point of view of a tribal member that didn't abuse their rights and overharvest.
I found this site when I was reading stuff on line from the clover springs incident back in 2011.
I requested, asked and pleaded for assistance here and guess what I got? ............. It wasn't help, that's for sure.
So again, what's left to do when I've tried numerous things? It's a passion, but passions don't pay the bills and if I have to choose between spending my time working or my passion then I choose work as I have children and responsibilities.
Post by: kentrek on September 18, 2019, 12:07:45 PM
Lol this is laughable....the non tribal should feel far from being on a high horse of sound managementwe, or the Wdfw? You can’t compare the two units, Wdfw was trying to kill off elk that have a problem with hoof rot, totally different than what’s happening to the Yakima herd.
I dont see plat attacking us on how WE destroyed the st Helens herd...
Yes WE...and I dont remember Wdfw issuing hoof rot tags...Wdfw issued tons of cow tags and WE took full advantage...
I personally dont have all the facts of the Yakima issue.....and obviously neither do alot of you or else plat would sing a different tune, which is a bummer...
Carry on
Post by: Tinmaniac on September 18, 2019, 12:17:12 PM
Quote from: Tinmaniac on Today at 11:23:55 AMFair enough.None of my posts were attacks on you personally,more questions on the policies that keep us divided.My apologies if thats how it was taken.
You are actually in a unique position of helping to bridge the divide in the small community that exists here.How you choose to use that position is entirely up to you.
You obviously didn't comprehend a previous post of mine where I explained what happened in the past when I tried and tried and tried and tried and tried and tried to "use my unique position" here. Ask some that have posted in this thread, it got ugly I ended up just throwing in the towel and left for almost a year.
You're speaking as if you're the 1st or only person to know or suggest what you said above. As I mentioned, I came here to educate and provide another story and point of view of a tribal member that didn't abuse their rights and overharvest.
I found this site when I was reading stuff on line from the clover springs incident back in 2011.
I requested, asked and pleaded for assistance here and guess what I got? ............. It wasn't help, that's for sure.
So again, what's left to do when I've tried numerous things? It's a passion, but passions don't pay the bills and if I have to choose between spending my time working or my passion then I choose work as I have children and responsibilities.
Post by: trophyhunt on September 18, 2019, 12:42:40 PM
zero management or some management, which one is better for the herds?Lol this is laughable....the non tribal should feel far from being on a high horse of sound managementwe, or the Wdfw? You can’t compare the two units, Wdfw was trying to kill off elk that have a problem with hoof rot, totally different than what’s happening to the Yakima herd.
I dont see plat attacking us on how WE destroyed the st Helens herd...
Yes WE...and I dont remember Wdfw issuing hoof rot tags...Wdfw issued tons of cow tags and WE took full advantage...
I personally dont have all the facts of the Yakima issue.....and obviously neither do alot of you or else plat would sing a different tune, which is a bummer...
Carry on
Post by: OutHouse on September 18, 2019, 12:46:59 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on September 18, 2019, 12:58:14 PM
Post by: OutHouse on September 18, 2019, 01:10:25 PM
Speaking of proof of poaching by the Yakima tribes, Operation Cody! Read it!
I did read that book. Very interesting. But the individuals I am talking about are non-tribal.
Post by: kentrek on September 18, 2019, 01:18:32 PM
zero management or some management, which one is better for the herds?Lol this is laughable....the non tribal should feel far from being on a high horse of sound managementwe, or the Wdfw? You can’t compare the two units, Wdfw was trying to kill off elk that have a problem with hoof rot, totally different than what’s happening to the Yakima herd.
I dont see plat attacking us on how WE destroyed the st Helens herd...
Yes WE...and I dont remember Wdfw issuing hoof rot tags...Wdfw issued tons of cow tags and WE took full advantage...
I personally dont have all the facts of the Yakima issue.....and obviously neither do alot of you or else plat would sing a different tune, which is a bummer...
Carry on
I didn't realize the Yakimas had zero management ??
Post by: Rainier10 on September 18, 2019, 01:27:17 PM
To add what little I can to this discussion, I think if the poaching problem was addressed, the perceived problem of over harvest wouldn't even be a problem. I know for fact based on some matters I worked on (not hunting related, but where this issue arose) that there are several huge operations where elk and deer are poached, gutted, and the carcasses sold for anywhere from $60-$200 (mostly in Yakima County). The evidence for this was captured by informants talking directly with people involved while discussing other unlawful acts. On film, clear audio. Offers were even made and discussed. I believe if poaching was reigned in and punished properly, this wouldn't be an issue.:yeah:
What we can control or try to control is non native poaching and I believe it is a huge issue. I think we need to get our own house in order before we worry about what others are doing. Work on them both at the same time if you want but I really don't think non native poaching is getting anywhere near the attention it deserves.
Post by: Platensek-po on September 18, 2019, 01:37:23 PM
Post by: Whitefoot on September 18, 2019, 01:51:56 PM
I would like to see more roads gated. :twocents:
That would require getting more keys to open those gates. :hello:
Post by: dvolmer on September 18, 2019, 01:52:11 PM
Are the numbers and figures above correct? NO they are not. The only correct number above is the original number of 10,851 tribal members total. We will never know the totals because they have no reporting requirements and wont consider starting. But some of the figures above are on the conservative side I do believe. The total number of elk killed in the figures above is 12,460 per year. Do I believe that the tribe kills that many elk a year? NO! Do I believe uncontrolled tribal hunting in the Yakima area is the number one cause of elk depletion. ABSOLUTELY!!!! Wolves, Bears, Cougars, and non-native poaching aren't even a close second place!! The only other big contributing factor is weather issues with winter kill and poor calf production and survival but even that isn't close to the number one reason. Anyone else thinking otherwise needs to re-think their views in my opinion.
Post by: jackelope on September 18, 2019, 02:14:06 PM
There are 10,851 members of the Yakima tribe (check google if you don't believe me). Lets say that 90% of them don't want to hunt and don't care about hunting. Now your down to approximately 1085 that hunt. Lets say conservatively that 75% of the hunters only hunt to sustain themselves for food for their families and only kill an average of two elk a year. So that is 813 tribal members killing two elk each so right there is approximately 1600 elk killed. The other 25% of the 10% so roughly 2.5% (272 tribal hunters) of the entire tribe are really hunting it hard for whatever they can get within the rules that are allowed to them. out of the 272 hunters left lets say that 172 of them are just bad hunters and can only come up with killing 5 elk in 180 days of hunting. That is another 860 elk killed. Lets say 100 of them are good hunters that hit it hard. I know that if I hunted the Yakima areas for 180 days and could use whatever weapon I chose and hunt the rut and so forth, that I easily could kill 100 elk in 180 days and most members on this forum could do the same. If I had a jerky business that depended on it I could probably kill more than that! That is 10,000 elk. 100 hunters is less than 1% of the tribe total. Starting to catch on?
Are the numbers and figures above correct? NO they are not. The only correct number above is the original number of 10,851 tribal members total. We will never know the totals because they have no reporting requirements and wont consider starting. But some of the figures above are on the conservative side I do believe. The total number of elk killed in the figures above is 12,460 per year. Do I believe that the tribe kills that many elk a year? NO! Do I believe uncontrolled tribal hunting in the Yakima area is the number one cause of elk depletion. ABSOLUTELY!!!! Wolves, Bears, Cougars, and non-native poaching aren't even a close second place!! The only other big contributing factor is weather issues with winter kill and poor calf production and survival but even that isn't close to the number one reason. Anyone else thinking otherwise needs to re-think their views in my opinion.
I'd be shocked if more than 25% of them killed 2 elk a year. I bet 25% of them don't kill one elk a year.
Post by: dvolmer on September 18, 2019, 02:17:00 PM
There are 10,851 members of the Yakima tribe (check google if you don't believe me). Lets say that 90% of them don't want to hunt and don't care about hunting. Now your down to approximately 1085 that hunt. Lets say conservatively that 75% of the hunters only hunt to sustain themselves for food for their families and only kill an average of two elk a year. So that is 813 tribal members killing two elk each so right there is approximately 1600 elk killed. The other 25% of the 10% so roughly 2.5% (272 tribal hunters) of the entire tribe are really hunting it hard for whatever they can get within the rules that are allowed to them. out of the 272 hunters left lets say that 172 of them are just bad hunters and can only come up with killing 5 elk in 180 days of hunting. That is another 860 elk killed. Lets say 100 of them are good hunters that hit it hard. I know that if I hunted the Yakima areas for 180 days and could use whatever weapon I chose and hunt the rut and so forth, that I easily could kill 100 elk in 180 days and most members on this forum could do the same. If I had a jerky business that depended on it I could probably kill more than that! That is 10,000 elk. 100 hunters is less than 1% of the tribe total. Starting to catch on?
Are the numbers and figures above correct? NO they are not. The only correct number above is the original number of 10,851 tribal members total. We will never know the totals because they have no reporting requirements and wont consider starting. But some of the figures above are on the conservative side I do believe. The total number of elk killed in the figures above is 12,460 per year. Do I believe that the tribe kills that many elk a year? NO! Do I believe uncontrolled tribal hunting in the Yakima area is the number one cause of elk depletion. ABSOLUTELY!!!! Wolves, Bears, Cougars, and non-native poaching aren't even a close second place!! The only other big contributing factor is weather issues with winter kill and poor calf production and survival but even that isn't close to the number one reason. Anyone else thinking otherwise needs to re-think their views in my opinion.
I'd be shocked if more than 25% of them killed 2 elk a year. I bet 25% of them don't kill one elk a year.
We will never know will we???
Post by: kentrek on September 18, 2019, 02:23:48 PM
Maybe it's the increasing shed hunting during calving season...
Post by: Stein on September 18, 2019, 02:24:42 PM
Post by: h20hunter on September 18, 2019, 02:28:36 PM
Do all types of tribal hunters, ceremonial, subsistence, etc. affect the overall herd numbers. Yes, they do and should be tallied and reported.
I don't believe that any one animal, regardless of our heritage, belongs to any one or any one group of us. It is a shared resource and should be managed as the whole, not the separate groups.
Post by: Curly on September 18, 2019, 02:30:10 PM
https://www.yakimaherald.com/sports/outdoors/troubling-decline-falling-elk-populations-bring-hunting-reductions/article_f8725d29-b19e-503d-af9a-0c1c18054831.html
Full article at the link above but two specific paragraphs in this that were the biggest takeaways for me are:
1.) "Local Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife biologist Jeff Bernatowicz said no studies have been done on area calves and researchers don’t know why their survival numbers are historically low. Until that trend reverses, hunters must pay the price with fewer permits available and shortened seasons for archers."
Why have no studies been done on this?
2.) "Bernatowicz noted hunters could also see negative effects from a pair of factors outside their control. Access to the Yakima Training Center will be limited this fall by heavy training activity, and unofficial reports from one tribe show total tribal harvest may be exceeding the number of new branched bulls in the herd, according to the wildlife department."
So the tribe is self reporting that they're literally killing off the bulls? Killing more bulls then are being recruited as calves each year. Wow. Also the Colockum herd has declined as well. They're currently at 4,133 elk up there and the WDFW's goal is 6,000.
I'm late to this discussion and I don't want to get into the tribal stuff, but the first issue about calf survival should be touched upon. Bernie would like a study done but isn't the most likely reason for low calf survival be due to predators? Cats, coyotes, and more recently wolves.....seems obvious that predators need to be reduced and I think Bernie probably knows that.
Let's say they (wdfw) comes up with money for a study and the study reveals what many already now (there are too many predators). What would wdfw propose to do about it?
Post by: Stein on September 18, 2019, 02:32:19 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: dvolmer on September 18, 2019, 02:36:14 PM
Absolutely nothing! They cant! No hounds, No wolf killing (unless they are feasting on livestock), and no other controls. We have a large chunk of voting population in this liberal state that wont allow that. Most of them would prefer hunting to be outlawed and let the predators control the populations. Everything in nature back to Adam and Eve times. The only reason we are hunting now is the revenue we produce they cant live without. Never forget that! And every year it will just get worse as fewer and fewer youth hit the mountains hunting and fishing and turn to the technology outlets.https://www.yakimaherald.com/sports/outdoors/troubling-decline-falling-elk-populations-bring-hunting-reductions/article_f8725d29-b19e-503d-af9a-0c1c18054831.html
Full article at the link above but two specific paragraphs in this that were the biggest takeaways for me are:
1.) "Local Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife biologist Jeff Bernatowicz said no studies have been done on area calves and researchers don’t know why their survival numbers are historically low. Until that trend reverses, hunters must pay the price with fewer permits available and shortened seasons for archers."
Why have no studies been done on this?
2.) "Bernatowicz noted hunters could also see negative effects from a pair of factors outside their control. Access to the Yakima Training Center will be limited this fall by heavy training activity, and unofficial reports from one tribe show total tribal harvest may be exceeding the number of new branched bulls in the herd, according to the wildlife department."
So the tribe is self reporting that they're literally killing off the bulls? Killing more bulls then are being recruited as calves each year. Wow. Also the Colockum herd has declined as well. They're currently at 4,133 elk up there and the WDFW's goal is 6,000.
I'm late to this discussion and I don't want to get into the tribal stuff, but the first issue about calf survival should be touched upon. Bernie would like a study done but isn't the most likely reason for low calf survival be due to predators? Cats, coyotes, and more recently wolves.....seems obvious that predators need to be reduced and I think Bernie probably knows that.
Let's say they (wdfw) comes up with money for a study and the study reveals what many already now (there are too many predators). What would wdfw propose to do about it?
Post by: Bango skank on September 18, 2019, 02:37:53 PM
https://www.yakimaherald.com/sports/outdoors/troubling-decline-falling-elk-populations-bring-hunting-reductions/article_f8725d29-b19e-503d-af9a-0c1c18054831.html
Full article at the link above but two specific paragraphs in this that were the biggest takeaways for me are:
1.) "Local Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife biologist Jeff Bernatowicz said no studies have been done on area calves and researchers don’t know why their survival numbers are historically low. Until that trend reverses, hunters must pay the price with fewer permits available and shortened seasons for archers."
Why have no studies been done on this?
2.) "Bernatowicz noted hunters could also see negative effects from a pair of factors outside their control. Access to the Yakima Training Center will be limited this fall by heavy training activity, and unofficial reports from one tribe show total tribal harvest may be exceeding the number of new branched bulls in the herd, according to the wildlife department."
So the tribe is self reporting that they're literally killing off the bulls? Killing more bulls then are being recruited as calves each year. Wow. Also the Colockum herd has declined as well. They're currently at 4,133 elk up there and the WDFW's goal is 6,000.
Let's say they (wdfw) comes up with money for a study and the study reveals what many already now (there are too many predators). What would wdfw propose to do about it?
The study would never reveal excessive predators as a problem. They have an agenda, a predetermined desired outcome to their studies, and they will do their studies in such a way as to reach the desired conclusion.
Post by: trophyhunt on September 18, 2019, 03:02:24 PM
I want to meet the guy that can pack out 100 elk in a season!hes on here
Post by: trophyhunt on September 18, 2019, 03:04:34 PM
this is exactly the mentality we are dealing with. This is exactly why we should open the seasons to match the tribes, when your jerky business runs out of meat, maybe then we can sit and talk like adults.I would like to see more roads gated. :twocents:
That would require getting more keys to open those gates. :hello:
Post by: hughjorgan on September 18, 2019, 03:08:05 PM
There are 10,851 members of the Yakima tribe (check google if you don't believe me). Lets say that 90% of them don't want to hunt and don't care about hunting. Now your down to approximately 1085 that hunt. Lets say conservatively that 75% of the hunters only hunt to sustain themselves for food for their families and only kill an average of two elk a year. So that is 813 tribal members killing two elk each so right there is approximately 1600 elk killed. The other 25% of the 10% so roughly 2.5% (272 tribal hunters) of the entire tribe are really hunting it hard for whatever they can get within the rules that are allowed to them. out of the 272 hunters left lets say that 172 of them are just bad hunters and can only come up with killing 5 elk in 180 days of hunting. That is another 860 elk killed. Lets say 100 of them are good hunters that hit it hard. I know that if I hunted the Yakima areas for 180 days and could use whatever weapon I chose and hunt the rut and so forth, that I easily could kill 100 elk in 180 days and most members on this forum could do the same. If I had a jerky business that depended on it I could probably kill more than that! That is 10,000 elk. 100 hunters is less than 1% of the tribe total. Starting to catch on? With the huge number of the tribe having only 25% native bloodline (that means that one of their four grandparents were native). I'm 75% English and 25% German. I don't recognize myself as being a German.
Are the numbers and figures above correct? NO they are not. The only correct number above is the original number of 10,851 tribal members total. We will never know the totals because they have no reporting requirements and wont consider starting. But some of the figures above are on the conservative side I do believe. The total number of elk killed in the figures above is 12,460 per year. Do I believe that the tribe kills that many elk a year? NO! Do I believe uncontrolled tribal hunting in the Yakima area is the number one cause of elk depletion. ABSOLUTELY!!!! Wolves, Bears, Cougars, and non-native poaching aren't even a close second place!! The only other big contributing factor is weather issues with winter kill and poor calf production and survival but even that isn't close to the number one reason. Anyone else thinking otherwise needs to re-think their views in my opinion.
What about the muckleshoot tribe that is hunting the Yakima herd. They already have a track record of killing off a bunch of elk out 410, they’ve just moved a little farther east...
Post by: dvolmer on September 18, 2019, 03:12:59 PM
There are 10,851 members of the Yakima tribe (check google if you don't believe me). Lets say that 90% of them don't want to hunt and don't care about hunting. Now your down to approximately 1085 that hunt. Lets say conservatively that 75% of the hunters only hunt to sustain themselves for food for their families and only kill an average of two elk a year. So that is 813 tribal members killing two elk each so right there is approximately 1600 elk killed. The other 25% of the 10% so roughly 2.5% (272 tribal hunters) of the entire tribe are really hunting it hard for whatever they can get within the rules that are allowed to them. out of the 272 hunters left lets say that 172 of them are just bad hunters and can only come up with killing 5 elk in 180 days of hunting. That is another 860 elk killed. Lets say 100 of them are good hunters that hit it hard. I know that if I hunted the Yakima areas for 180 days and could use whatever weapon I chose and hunt the rut and so forth, that I easily could kill 100 elk in 180 days and most members on this forum could do the same. If I had a jerky business that depended on it I could probably kill more than that! That is 10,000 elk. 100 hunters is less than 1% of the tribe total. Starting to catch on? With the huge number of the tribe having only 25% native bloodline (that means that one of their four grandparents were native). I'm 75% English and 25% German. I don't recognize myself as being a German.
Are the numbers and figures above correct? NO they are not. The only correct number above is the original number of 10,851 tribal members total. We will never know the totals because they have no reporting requirements and wont consider starting. But some of the figures above are on the conservative side I do believe. The total number of elk killed in the figures above is 12,460 per year. Do I believe that the tribe kills that many elk a year? NO! Do I believe uncontrolled tribal hunting in the Yakima area is the number one cause of elk depletion. ABSOLUTELY!!!! Wolves, Bears, Cougars, and non-native poaching aren't even a close second place!! The only other big contributing factor is weather issues with winter kill and poor calf production and survival but even that isn't close to the number one reason. Anyone else thinking otherwise needs to re-think their views in my opinion.
What about the muckleshoot tribe that is hunting the Yakima herd. They already have a track record of killing off a bunch of elk out 410, they’ve just moved a little farther east...
In my research I found out that you only have to be 1/8th to be a member of the Muckleshoot compared to 1/4 for Yakimas
Post by: Platensek-po on September 18, 2019, 03:15:55 PM
Post by: Bango skank on September 18, 2019, 03:19:53 PM
Having a German grandparent you could apply for German citizenship.
Or you could just pour in across the border with thousands of your african buddies and merkel will welcome you with open arms
Post by: Platensek-po on September 18, 2019, 03:22:59 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on September 18, 2019, 03:27:13 PM
Must have been how the natives felt seeing all the Europeans unload off of boats claiming the land was now theirs.they took it from someone too, did they give the previous land dwellers treaties?
Post by: Platensek-po on September 18, 2019, 03:29:00 PM
Post by: Bango skank on September 18, 2019, 03:30:09 PM
Must have been how the natives felt seeing all the Europeans unload off of boats claiming the land was now theirs.they took it from someone too, did they give the previous land dwellers treaties?
Sshhh, dont mention the fact that the native tribes were constantly raiding, murdering, raping and kidnapping and stealing territory from other tribes before white people came and just happened to beat them at their own game.
Post by: HillHound on September 18, 2019, 03:30:20 PM
Post by: Woodchuck on September 18, 2019, 03:32:40 PM
Post by: PlateauNDN on September 18, 2019, 03:33:08 PM
If anyone understands the difference let me know and I'll gladly elaborate on the subject.
Post by: Bango skank on September 18, 2019, 03:34:36 PM
Somehow the natives were able to coexist and use those resources for 14thousand years or so.
Heres the somehow.... they didnt have horses or guns.
Post by: OutHouse on September 18, 2019, 03:51:43 PM
Yeah they got a great treaty the men were offered to have their scalp cut off before they were murdered. And their wives got to be raped and kidnapped and become part of the attacking tribe. But yeah let’s just keep talking on how wrong we have done them. Oh wait I forget we didn’t do anything to them, our ancestors did something to their ancestors hundreds of years ago. Just like when they were committing the same acts. They owe those people nothing just as we should owe all of them nothing.
If you are talking about the treaty of 1855, they were pretty much forced into it after the war in 1855. And, they did a heck of a job retaining their hunting rights. If you think there was coercion coming from the natives, you need a history lesson. Badly.
This thread has taken a turn for the worse. Its starting to wreak of jealousy and envy for a group who was forced to give up everything in exchange for retaining some of the rights they enjoyed for thousands of years. And like I said earlier, the real problem is poaching, yet people find a more convenient subject on which to place blame.
Post by: Taco280AI on September 18, 2019, 03:59:54 PM
Post by: Tbar on September 18, 2019, 04:16:26 PM
Post by: jackelope on September 18, 2019, 04:18:07 PM
Ok folks, this needs to get toned down and be civil or it will be locked and go away.
Locked. Nothing good will come of it.