Post by: yorketransport on September 29, 2019, 08:28:05 PM
I've done some testing with both the 250gr Barnes T-EZ and the 275gr Traditions Smackdown, which both shoot equally well for me, and I'm not convinced that I really like how they perform. The Traditions bullet expanded well at 100 yards when shot into my wet leather bullet trap but didn't penetrate that well. The Barnes bullets actually penetrated less, which surprised me. All the guys I know who're using a muzzy for elk swear by the Barnes bullet and they've got animals on the ground to back up their support. I just haven't been impressed with their penetration though. I trust the opinions of the guys who recommended the Barnes to me though, so that's what I'm going with. Honestly, I would have preferred if my gun would have shot a heavy, hardcast bullet well but that just didn't happen.
My thinking is that muzzle loaders are comparable to a big revolver. I'm very comfortable with a 454, 480, 475 or 500 caliber handgun shooting hardcast bullets at animals up to the size of an elk out to 100 yards. I'm not a big fan of shooting critters that far with expanding bullets like the Barnes, which has worked well in the past out of handguns on smaller critters like deer and bear. When I'd deer hunting I have the 480 loaded with the 275gr XPB, when I'm elk hunting I use a 410gr hard cast bullet.
Now I'm questioning my bullet choices for elk hunting with a muzzy. I actually passed on a shot at a bear yesterday because I didn't feel like the gun was up to it. It was a small-medium sized bear probably around 150#. I spotted it about 150 yards away while deer hunting with the muzzy. If I had any of my other rifles it would have been a dead bear! I worked my way up to about 80 yards away before I ran out of cover and would have been left just out in the open. The problem was that the bear was feeding his way up to the tree line and was at a hard quartering away angle on the other side of a deep creek bed. There was no way for me to get a better angle for the shot and I sat there with this bear in my sights for almost 2 minutes before he hit the timber and disappeared. I would have taken that shot with my iron sighted 480 revolver and never hesitated but I just wasn't confident that I could get a good hit to the vitals at that range with the muzzle loader. It's a different story when I can get a quick follow up shot, but it was a no go for me know that I only had one chance to get a good hit.
After that I just kept thinking that if I'm hesitant to stick a bear with one of these bullets at 80 yards, how deep can I count on it reliably penetrate on an elk if I get a shot at 75-100 yards?
Post by: Jolten on September 29, 2019, 08:33:12 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on September 29, 2019, 08:34:08 PM
Post by: kselkhunter on September 29, 2019, 08:35:56 PM
For me, I have a CVA Accura V2 with peep sight and globe w/crosshairs set up. I practice out to 150 yards, and am confident in my shooting.
For deer, my limit is about 125 yards due to smaller size target. For elk, I'd go to 140-150 with a broadside shot without worrying. If not a broadside then would have to decide my range based on the conditions.
If a quartering-to shot on an elk, I'd stay at 125 yards or closer for my preferences. I use both a Barnes 290gr bullet and a 310gr hard cast bullet that I've annealed the tip to perform like a partition bullet, so I know both bullets will expand.
But we're all different.
Post by: Dan-o on September 29, 2019, 08:37:55 PM
I don't think you'll have issues with either of your choices overexpanding at muzzy bullets.
FWIW, I've shot 15-20 elk with a muzzy, and those big old bullets seem to penetrate on elk just fine.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on September 29, 2019, 08:41:41 PM
Post by: Mfowl on September 29, 2019, 08:43:24 PM
Post by: yorketransport on September 29, 2019, 08:48:15 PM
You're over thinking it. A 250gr+ anything has plenty of pop at 150 yards. Never shot the Barnes, but shot 30 or so critters with a muzzy with probably close to a dozen projectiles. What powder charge?
110gr of Triple 7. It holds a solid 2.5" from a good rest and around 3.5" sitting and off of shooting sticks. Groups got pretty ugly if I went over 110gr.
I think my issue is that I'm a big fan of complete pass through shots. I probably just need to shoot a few critters with a muzzy to have a little more confidence in them. Muzzle loader seasons are so much more compatible with my work schedule that I'd like to start hunting with one every year. The thought of elk hunting in early October every years is awfully appealing!
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on September 29, 2019, 09:04:21 PM
Post by: Crunchy on September 29, 2019, 09:31:09 PM
Post by: Bango skank on September 29, 2019, 11:27:36 PM
Post by: huntnnw on September 29, 2019, 11:40:46 PM
Post by: fowl smacker on September 30, 2019, 05:04:55 AM
Post by: HntnFsh on September 30, 2019, 05:55:22 AM
with muzzy bigger weights are better. When we were a all lead state, I shot 440-460gr bullets. With todays newer bullets I still try to stay around 300 gr. I shoot the 290gr barnes.
For elk I'm in the 300ish grain group too. I feel 250 is too light. When I was shooting lead I was closer to 350 grains.
Post by: JJB11B on September 30, 2019, 06:16:18 AM
You're over thinking it. A 250gr+ anything has plenty of pop at 150 yards. Never shot the Barnes, but shot 30 or so critters with a muzzy with probably close to a dozen projectiles. What powder charge?this! I shot a Mulie doe At 150 yards with the 250 Barnes TTSX bullet and it went in behind one shoulder and took out the other shoulder on the way through, left about a 1.5” exit hole.
Post by: usmc74 on September 30, 2019, 06:54:59 AM
I have 2 dead elk, 1 shot kills in the same bedding area (4 years apart). Neither elk moved after hit,
My max is 150 yd., these 2 were 68 and 100 yards
Post by: Karl Blanchard on September 30, 2019, 07:06:24 AM
with muzzy bigger weights are better. When we were a all lead state, I shot 440-460gr bullets. With todays newer bullets I still try to stay around 300 gr. I shoot the 290gr barnes.:yeah: gone are the days of a big pancaked hunk of lead stuck to the off side hide. I get pass throughs almost always on deer. Elk are a different beast. There is a lot more mass there for a bullet to find it's way through. They may be a bigger target so easier to put a good shot on but they are also significantly harder to kill than a deer. My max distance is farther on deer than elk for that reason.
Post by: TikkaT3-270Shortmag on September 30, 2019, 09:47:01 AM
Post by: Moe the Sleaze on September 30, 2019, 12:02:01 PM
Post by: yorketransport on September 30, 2019, 08:07:41 PM
with muzzy bigger weights are better. When we were a all lead state, I shot 440-460gr bullets. With todays newer bullets I still try to stay around 300 gr. I shoot the 290gr barnes.
For elk I'm in the 300ish grain group too. I feel 250 is too light. When I was shooting lead I was closer to 350 grains.
That's always been my opinion on muzzle loader projectiles. I just couldn't get good groups with the 300+ gr bullets I tried; groups were closer to 4" at 100 yards. I really wanted some of the hardcast 454 bullets to work for me but it just hasn't happened. Even the 290gr Barnes bullets were pretty bad.
Post by: Dan-o on September 30, 2019, 09:02:23 PM
with muzzy bigger weights are better. When we were a all lead state, I shot 440-460gr bullets. With todays newer bullets I still try to stay around 300 gr. I shoot the 290gr barnes.
For elk I'm in the 300ish grain group too. I feel 250 is too light. When I was shooting lead I was closer to 350 grains.
That's always been my opinion on muzzle loader projectiles. I just couldn't get good groups with the 300+ gr bullets I tried; groups were closer to 4" at 100 yards. I really wanted some of the hardcast 454 bullets to work for me but it just hasn't happened. Even the 290gr Barnes bullets were pretty bad.
I shoot a 400 grain Harvester hardcast lead for elk.
They are 45 cal, and you use a sabot.
Passthrough's are the norm. Makes the short tracking jobs pretty easy. :-)
Post by: dilleytech on October 01, 2019, 10:44:32 AM
with muzzy bigger weights are better. When we were a all lead state, I shot 440-460gr bullets. With todays newer bullets I still try to stay around 300 gr. I shoot the 290gr barnes.:yeah: gone are the days of a big pancaked hunk of lead stuck to the off side hide. I get pass throughs almost always on deer. Elk are a different beast. There is a lot more mass there for a bullet to find it's way through. They may be a bigger target so easier to put a good shot on but they are also significantly harder to kill than a deer. My max distance is farther on deer than elk for that reason.
What’s your preferred place to hit an animal with these new bullets? I always aimed for lung but have heard guys say to aim for shoulder with muzzys?
Post by: slowhand on October 01, 2019, 11:12:08 AM
This would be a new one on Me. I have always been taught to shoot for the vitals with every weapon. Heart, lungs, liver?with muzzy bigger weights are better. When we were a all lead state, I shot 440-460gr bullets. With todays newer bullets I still try to stay around 300 gr. I shoot the 290gr barnes.:yeah: gone are the days of a big pancaked hunk of lead stuck to the off side hide. I get pass throughs almost always on deer. Elk are a different beast. There is a lot more mass there for a bullet to find it's way through. They may be a bigger target so easier to put a good shot on but they are also significantly harder to kill than a deer. My max distance is farther on deer than elk for that reason.
What’s your preferred place to hit an animal with these new bullets? I always aimed for lung but have heard guys say to aim for shoulder with muzzys?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 01, 2019, 11:15:56 AM
I stay away from shoulders. Not that the weapon won't perform but for the simple reason that a braised shoulder roast in the Dutch oven is one of the best cuts on an animal. It's right up there with neck and shanks😍with muzzy bigger weights are better. When we were a all lead state, I shot 440-460gr bullets. With todays newer bullets I still try to stay around 300 gr. I shoot the 290gr barnes.:yeah: gone are the days of a big pancaked hunk of lead stuck to the off side hide. I get pass throughs almost always on deer. Elk are a different beast. There is a lot more mass there for a bullet to find it's way through. They may be a bigger target so easier to put a good shot on but they are also significantly harder to kill than a deer. My max distance is farther on deer than elk for that reason.
What’s your preferred place to hit an animal with these new bullets? I always aimed for lung but have heard guys say to aim for shoulder with muzzys?
Post by: M_ray on October 01, 2019, 12:38:27 PM
You're over thinking it. A 250gr+ anything has plenty of pop at 150 yards. Never shot the Barnes, but shot 30 or so critters with a muzzy with probably close to a dozen projectiles. What powder charge?
What Karl said ...
250 grn shockwave, 100grn loose tripple 7 fffg, #11 cap ... 200yard pass through double lung :tup:
Post by: dilleytech on October 01, 2019, 02:57:08 PM
I stay away from shoulders. Not that the weapon won't perform but for the simple reason that a braised shoulder roast in the Dutch oven is one of the best cuts on an animal. It's right up there with neck and shanks😍with muzzy bigger weights are better. When we were a all lead state, I shot 440-460gr bullets. With todays newer bullets I still try to stay around 300 gr. I shoot the 290gr barnes.:yeah: gone are the days of a big pancaked hunk of lead stuck to the off side hide. I get pass throughs almost always on deer. Elk are a different beast. There is a lot more mass there for a bullet to find it's way through. They may be a bigger target so easier to put a good shot on but they are also significantly harder to kill than a deer. My max distance is farther on deer than elk for that reason.
What’s your preferred place to hit an animal with these new bullets? I always aimed for lung but have heard guys say to aim for shoulder with muzzys?
I do love me some shanks and would have a hard time ever aiming at meat.
Post by: Sabotloader on October 01, 2019, 03:50:55 PM
First off, this is my first year seriously hunting with a muzzy, so I'm still very new to these things. I'm just curious what everyone considers a good max range with their equipment. I'm confident that I can make solid hits to about 150 yards off of my shooting sticks with the peep sights on the gun. I've been plinking at my 10" gong at that range all summer, so I'm feeling pretty good about it. In reality I've put 100 yards as my max on a critter just because I'm not familiar enough with terminal performance of muzzleloader bullets.
Under the right conditions and with the sight setup that I am using I have no problem shooting deer at 150 yards and elk out to 200. But! everything has got to be right for me to extend that far with open sights - especially with what 'mother nature' might be offering. Because of that I have placed sights on my rifle that gives me the illusions that I shooting through a scope - even though it is like 1X scope. I use a Williams FP Peep sight with 1/4 min clicks just like a scope and hood covered front sight that provides the look that I am shooting through a scope.
(https://i.postimg.cc/v868PtjH/Williams-FP-Peep.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/BQ9SR195/Williams-Front-Sight.jpg)
This setup will not work for everyone but it sure is nice for me.
Quote
I've done some testing with both the 250gr Barnes T-EZ and the 275gr Traditions Smackdown, which both shoot equally well for me, and I'm not convinced that I really like how they perform. The Traditions bullet expanded well at 100 yards when shot into my wet leather bullet trap but didn't penetrate that well. The Barnes bullets actually penetrated less, which surprised me. All the guys I know who're using a muzzy for elk swear by the Barnes bullet and they've got animals on the ground to back up their support. I just haven't been impressed with their penetration though. I trust the opinions of the guys who recommended the Barnes to me though, so that's what I'm going with. Honestly, I would have preferred if my gun would have shot a heavy, hardcast bullet well but that just didn't happen.
My thinking is that muzzle loaders are comparable to a big revolver. I'm very comfortable with a 454, 480, 475 or 500 caliber handgun shooting hardcast bullets at animals up to the size of an elk out to 100 yards. I'm not a big fan of shooting critters that far with expanding bullets like the Barnes, which has worked well in the past out of handguns on smaller critters like deer and bear. When I'd deer hunting I have the 480 loaded with the 275gr XPB, when I'm elk hunting I use a 410gr hard cast bullet.
Now I'm questioning my bullet choices for elk hunting with a muzzy. I actually passed on a shot at a bear yesterday because I didn't feel like the gun was up to it. It was a small-medium sized bear probably around 150#. I spotted it about 150 yards away while deer hunting with the muzzy. If I had any of my other rifles it would have been a dead bear! I worked my way up to about 80 yards away before I ran out of cover and would have been left just out in the open. The problem was that the bear was feeding his way up to the tree line and was at a hard quartering away angle on the other side of a deep creek bed. There was no way for me to get a better angle for the shot and I sat there with this bear in my sights for almost 2 minutes before he hit the timber and disappeared. I would have taken that shot with my iron sighted 480 revolver and never hesitated but I just wasn't confident that I could get a good hit to the vitals at that range with the muzzle loader. It's a different story when I can get a quick follow up shot, but it was a no go for me know that I only had one chance to get a good hit.
After that I just kept thinking that if I'm hesitant to stick a bear with one of these bullets at 80 yards, how deep can I count on it reliably penetrate on an elk if I get a shot at 75-100 yards?
I would suggest you look at the Lehigh Defense site. Look for the muzzle loading bullet labeled .452x265CF. This is the bullet I use during regular rifle season in a muzzleloader. The bullet shoots with extremely good accuracy and has a top notch 'Terminal Velocity'. While it looks like a normal solid copper expanding hollow point it really works on a completely different theory (it is German Technology utilizing 'controlled fracturing' and bullet pass through). I really like the bullet to make two holes. The way this bullet works is when the bullet contacts liquid mass the 6 petals open to 40* then break off and move out puncturing organs in the chest cavity. The rest of the bullet (and the bulk of the bullet weight) continues its path through the animal cutting and creating a big shock of 'Hydrostatic Pressure' in the chest cavity. Then finally passes through and out of the opposite side of the animal (blood letting opening).
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPKWW208/265-Misc-Pics.jpg)
Here is a calculated ballistic sheet that shows what the bullet can do.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J492ycpN/Lehigh-452x265-CFHP-R225-6-in.jpg)
From the sheet you can see the bullet has enough velocity and energy to work on elk beyond 200 yards.
Post by: RobinHoodlum on October 01, 2019, 08:45:31 PM
A couple years ago I drew a quality buck and decided I wanted to be more confident at longer ranges. I kept getting loose and inconsistent groups between 150 and 200 yds. A co-worker advised that I use a ballistics calculator to better understand my trajectory. While I knew what my bullet drop was, I learned wind at those longer ranges was a much bigger issue than I fathomed.
I urge those considering shooting beyond 100 yds to check into this. My max range is now 150 yds, but only under ideal conditions and with a super solid rest.
Post by: ctwiggs1 on October 01, 2019, 09:57:47 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on October 01, 2019, 10:31:43 PM
Anyways, with the bloodlines: I lined up eight gallon jugs full of water in a row and shot them. The first two jugs basically exploded and I could tell the petals had ripped off and kept going into the third jug. The main core of the bullet finally came to rest in the seventh jug.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 02, 2019, 05:36:44 AM
Post by: Chukarhead on October 03, 2019, 02:00:14 PM
I shoot Barnes T-EZ 290gr on top of 120gr FFF T7. As Sabotloader posted above, you should meet the minimum velocity for bullet expansion at 200 yards. Barnes suggests a minimum of 1,300 fps.
With regard to penetration, all deer that I've shot or have been involved with have been pass-through shots with my preferred load. Most bullets shot into elk have tangled in the far-side hide, but a couple have been pass-through (including the 160yd broadside heart/double lung shot on a spike). I don't know how many animals that's been...several annually since Washington did away with the lead bullet requirement. We haven't lost one yet, and the Barnes bullets have performed as advertised on shots from less than 7 to over 160 yards.
I wouldn't think twice about a quartering-away bear at 80 yards with the experiences I've had with this load over the years. Happy hunting!
Post by: NW_Bucketlist on October 12, 2019, 10:30:39 PM
Post by: yorketransport on October 13, 2019, 12:57:02 PM
I'll probably end up buying a Disc Extreme once the seasons are over and keep my pawnshop Winchester X-150 as a backup/loaner gun. I've really got my eye on one of the .52 caliber versions just because I like the idea of using .475 bullets. :tup:
Post by: X-Force on October 13, 2019, 03:25:43 PM
Post by: WSU on October 14, 2019, 02:54:44 PM
Post by: Jolten on October 17, 2019, 10:18:15 AM
Post by: boneaddict on October 17, 2019, 10:30:07 AM
Post by: coachcw on October 17, 2019, 12:34:02 PM
Post by: eyesinfront on November 11, 2019, 08:31:11 AM
Post by: HntnFsh on November 11, 2019, 10:54:59 AM
Post by: Dark2Dark on November 12, 2019, 11:53:11 AM
with muzzy bigger weights are better. When we were a all lead state, I shot 440-460gr bullets. With todays newer bullets I still try to stay around 300 gr. I shoot the 290gr barnes.
For elk I'm in the 300ish grain group too. I feel 250 is too light. When I was shooting lead I was closer to 350 grains.
A 250 gr bullet pushed by 200 grains of powder lays a real wallop on 'em. Running out of time to get things sighted in with a new load, shot the 250 Barnes TEZ in front of 150 grains of powder and the bullet performance at 142 yards was picturesque. To be fair I have tended to shoot their 295 grain bullet, but that sabot is not rated to 200 grains of powder.
Post by: HntnFsh on November 12, 2019, 12:16:00 PM
with muzzy bigger weights are better. When we were a all lead state, I shot 440-460gr bullets. With todays newer bullets I still try to stay around 300 gr. I shoot the 290gr barnes.
For elk I'm in the 300ish grain group too. I feel 250 is too light. When I was shooting lead I was closer to 350 grains.
A 250 gr bullet pushed by 200 grains of powder lays a real wallop on 'em. Running out of time to get things sighted in with a new load, shot the 250 Barnes TEZ in front of 150 grains of powder and the bullet performance at 142 yards was picturesque. To be fair I have tended to shoot their 295 grain bullet, but that sabot is not rated to 200 grains of powder.
Never heard of anybody shooting 200 grains of powder, Wow! I have a hard time imagining there isn't a lot of unburnt powder left over. But there is a lot of stuff Ive never heard of and it may a perfect combo.
Post by: hollymaster on November 12, 2019, 12:25:48 PM
Post by: HntnFsh on November 13, 2019, 06:06:13 AM
Post by: bobcat on November 13, 2019, 06:13:13 AM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on November 13, 2019, 08:14:16 AM
I thought the whole point of traditional hunting methods was to get close. :dunno:The point for many/most is its the season that provides the best opportunity for harvest - its during elk rut and shooting range is triple that of a bow.
Post by: Wetwoodshunter on November 13, 2019, 09:22:31 AM
I thought 150 grains of powder was max. The most I've ever tried is 120.
Post by: Sabotloader on November 13, 2019, 09:53:08 AM
The rem 700's are rated for 200 grains.I thought 150 grains of powder was max. The most I've ever tried is 120.
Be careful with this... not all Rem 700 ML's are rated for 200 grains of powder. The Remington 700 UML is rated to 200 but the older Remington 700 ML's are not.
Wetwoodshunter, only a suggestion but I would suggest when you post your loads - identify your 700 as a UML. Also possibly list load by Volume or Weight. So many people have turned to weighing loads especially BH-209 it really does get confusing.
Post by: Dark2Dark on November 13, 2019, 10:24:11 PM
with muzzy bigger weights are better. When we were a all lead state, I shot 440-460gr bullets. With todays newer bullets I still try to stay around 300 gr. I shoot the 290gr barnes.
For elk I'm in the 300ish grain group too. I feel 250 is too light. When I was shooting lead I was closer to 350 grains.
A 250 gr bullet pushed by 200 grains of powder lays a real wallop on 'em. Running out of time to get things sighted in with a new load, shot the 250 Barnes TEZ in front of 150 grains of powder and the bullet performance at 142 yards was picturesque. To be fair I have tended to shoot their 295 grain bullet, but that sabot is not rated to 200 grains of powder.
Never heard of anybody shooting 200 grains of powder, Wow! I have a hard time imagining there isn't a lot of unburnt powder left over. But there is a lot of stuff Ive never heard of and it may a perfect combo.
As mentioned the Remington UML is rated for it. You also need to use the Remington Sabot (actually just a Barnes TEZ with a sturdier sabot), because the heavy powder load will essentially destroy most sabots.
The breach/ignition system ignites the powder more evenly (you must use pellets) so unburnt powder isn’t the issue you might think it would be.
The ballistics of the 200 grains is crazy compared to 150. Zeroed at 150 yards, you’re just 23” low at 300, compared to 86” low with 150 grains.
They tout it as a 300 yard gun, which is super attainable with an optic. I know someone in Utah that shot an elk a good bit farther than that with one.
With open sights I am lethally accurate at 200, but was glad to have an opportunity inside of 150.
I, as alluded to below, do not take a special amount of joy from hunting with the muzzleloader as a traditional weapon. I do enjoy the unique opportunities the seasons provide.