Post by: tonymiller7 on October 07, 2019, 07:17:08 AM
Thanks!
Post by: dvolmer on October 07, 2019, 07:24:08 AM
Post by: tonymiller7 on October 07, 2019, 07:29:30 AM
All I can say is that deer better have a completely light brown tail with no black tip on it and better be white on the underside or he will have a big problem with the warden if checked.
The body was grey, the tail is full whitetail length and width but bottom half was black. Never saw the underside of the tail, I would guess it would be white. No white butt. Was with a regular whitetail so it was easy to look at the differences.
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on October 07, 2019, 07:34:38 AM
Post by: fishnfur on October 07, 2019, 07:39:34 AM
Post by: tonymiller7 on October 07, 2019, 07:41:36 AM
what general region? can you share a pic?
unit 101, don't have a pic handy.
Post by: tonymiller7 on October 07, 2019, 07:42:49 AM
I think you have to err on the side of safety. You could call enforcement and ask them what they think, and then take down names and phone numbers lo back up your claim if they suggest it is OK to harvest that deer. I doubt they will. Hybridization cannot be proved without genetic tests, so without obvious signs that it is strongly Whitetail, I'd say you're in a precarious position killing that deer.
I have an email to them now as well. By looking I would say its more whitetail characteristics than mule deer. But I'm going to wait for their reply and depending on their answer print it off for him to carry around.
Post by: kramman on October 07, 2019, 07:55:10 AM
Post by: boneaddict on October 07, 2019, 07:57:22 AM
In my mind a forked horn muley looks way different in antlers than a two point whitey.
Post by: Bob33 on October 07, 2019, 09:19:13 AM
Post by: bobcat on October 07, 2019, 09:22:17 AM
Post by: Jpmiller on October 07, 2019, 09:37:08 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 07, 2019, 10:34:26 AM
Post by: boneaddict on October 07, 2019, 10:37:39 AM
Post by: Samloffler on October 07, 2019, 11:13:51 AM
Post by: tonymiller7 on October 07, 2019, 11:24:31 AM
Get us a picture and we could tell you with a lot more certainty. Based on your description though, it sounds like the body is mostly whitey and the horns are muley, is that correct? In that case, I'd call it a muley according to the law.I'm not asking for your buy off on whether or not it's a cross, strictly for the legality. I give a pretty thorough description of what it looks like above. Unless wdfw tells him something different he's going with the 3 pt. Rule.
Post by: Samloffler on October 07, 2019, 02:37:37 PM
I didn't see a description of the antlers at all. You described the body as whitetail like, so I assumed the antlers were mule deer like because you're asking about hybrids.
Post by: KopperBuck on October 07, 2019, 02:42:14 PM
Get us a picture and we could tell you with a lot more certainty. Based on your description though, it sounds like the body is mostly whitey and the horns are muley, is that correct? In that case, I'd call it a muley according to the law.I'm not asking for your buy off on whether or not it's a cross, strictly for the legality. I give a pretty thorough description of what it looks like above. Unless wdfw tells him something different he's going with the 3 pt. Rule.
You say no mistake about it. That's pretty sure. How do you know? And if you know, why the question?
Post by: tonymiller7 on October 07, 2019, 03:20:00 PM
Get us a picture and we could tell you with a lot more certainty. Based on your description though, it sounds like the body is mostly whitey and the horns are muley, is that correct? In that case, I'd call it a muley according to the law.I'm not asking for your buy off on whether or not it's a cross, strictly for the legality. I give a pretty thorough description of what it looks like above. Unless wdfw tells him something different he's going with the 3 pt. Rule.
You say no mistake about it. That's pretty sure. How do you know? And if you know, why the question?
I know because I have looked at tens of thousands of game camera photos from this area, I know what whitetails and mule deer look like, I have also seen whitetail bucks running with mulie does here so I know it's a possibility. My question lies in the fact that because it is neither a whitetail or mule deer, do antler restrictions apply or not?
Post by: KopperBuck on October 07, 2019, 03:22:42 PM
Post by: tonymiller7 on October 07, 2019, 03:26:03 PM
What I was trying to say is that the wardens would probably base the decision on the antlers. If it's a whitetail rack, it's a whitetail and legal. If it's a muley rack, its a 2 point and not legal.
I didn't see a description of the antlers at all. You described the body as whitetail like, so I assumed the antlers were mule deer like because you're asking about hybrids.
That's not a good enough answer for me, it has muley coloring and larger ears so it could be mistaken if only looking at the head. We're not trying to hide anything or sneak something by a gamewarden. I want an answer and not an opinion. I was hoping someone on here had come across this before which is why I posted. The regional WDFW office couldn't even give me a good answer, they will get back to me after speaking to someone in enforcement.
Post by: tonymiller7 on October 07, 2019, 03:29:49 PM
Species fluid? Curious, how do you know?Well obviously whatever answer I provide you will be insufficient, So I will say it is a very educated guess.
Post by: grade-creek-rd on October 07, 2019, 03:35:04 PM
Grade
Post by: tonymiller7 on October 07, 2019, 03:36:31 PM
looking at page 16 of the regs, which shows how to tell the difference (of pure breeds) it looks like the determination would come down to the tail and metatarsal glands...since it's a 2 point the antlers are of little help. If the tail shows it's a whitetail then you would be legal (there is no way to measure a metatarsal gland on a live deer by a hunter so that is a mute point). Personally, if it has a whitetail's tail then it would fall under whitetail regs IMO. Just be sure to have the tail if stopped by a warden, and maybe a copy of the regs, especially page 16.
Grade
That's part of the problem, the tail has the size and shape of a white tail but the bottom half of it is black.
Post by: KopperBuck on October 07, 2019, 03:38:43 PM
Post by: tonymiller7 on October 07, 2019, 03:41:05 PM
There's all kinds of abnormalities that exist. You just seemed damn sure. My curiosity has more to do with the actual rarity vs the perceived. Call a game warden or WDFW. No one here has that answer.I am damn sure, your sureness in my sureness isn't the point of my post. I'm sure enough that it won't get shot without an official answer.
Post by: Rainier10 on October 07, 2019, 03:41:11 PM
I'd hate for his first buck to get him into hot water and leave him in a legal bind. I'd pass on it.
:yeah:
In this case I would just go by the 3 point minimum rule.
:yeah:
Post by: Bango skank on October 07, 2019, 03:42:11 PM
looking at page 16 of the regs, which shows how to tell the difference (of pure breeds) it looks like the determination would come down to the tail and metatarsal glands...since it's a 2 point the antlers are of little help. If the tail shows it's a whitetail then you would be legal (there is no way to measure a metatarsal gland on a live deer by a hunter so that is a mute point). Personally, if it has a whitetail's tail then it would fall under whitetail regs IMO. Just be sure to have the tail if stopped by a warden, and maybe a copy of the regs, especially page 16.
Grade
That's part of the problem, the tail has the size and shape of a white tail but the bottom half of it is black.
Thats actually very common for whitetails to have black at the end of the tail. Some have none, many have a little, some have a lot.
Post by: tonymiller7 on October 07, 2019, 03:50:38 PM
Post by: KopperBuck on October 07, 2019, 03:50:44 PM
There's all kinds of abnormalities that exist. You just seemed damn sure. My curiosity has more to do with the actual rarity vs the perceived. Call a game warden or WDFW. No one here has that answer.I am damn sure, your sureness in my sureness isn't the point of my post. I'm sure enough that it won't get shot without an official answer.
10-4
Post by: Buckmark on October 07, 2019, 04:05:25 PM
https://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/deer-scouting/deer-behavior/hybridization-a-unique-tail-of-whitetails-and-mule-deer
Post by: Bob33 on October 07, 2019, 04:15:43 PM
Post by: brew on October 07, 2019, 06:46:53 PM
if you've looked at tens of thousands of game camera photos than why are you coming on a board asking about this thread. if you are sure about it then kill it. stop asking questions then when someone questions it get on here and dispute what they have to say. Kill the dam thing if you're sure what it is....obviously you aren't cuz you are on here asking questions. if you have to ask questions don't kill itGet us a picture and we could tell you with a lot more certainty. Based on your description though, it sounds like the body is mostly whitey and the horns are muley, is that correct? In that case, I'd call it a muley according to the law.I'm not asking for your buy off on whether or not it's a cross, strictly for the legality. I give a pretty thorough description of what it looks like above. Unless wdfw tells him something different he's going with the 3 pt. Rule.
You say no mistake about it. That's pretty sure. How do you know? And if you know, why the question?
I know because I have looked at tens of thousands of game camera photos from this area, I know what whitetails and mule deer look like, I have also seen whitetail bucks running with mulie does here so I know it's a possibility. My question lies in the fact that because it is neither a whitetail or mule deer, do antler restrictions apply or not?
Post by: fishnfur on October 08, 2019, 12:25:05 AM
Hilarious, but obviously frustrating for the OP. Let it die guys.
BTW - Hybridization of WT and MD is pretty common in Texas. Google it.