Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 03, 2009, 06:54:01 PM
Joe was telling me that they put off the release to possibly even pickup more speed to make sure that they are the fastest bow out there. I suppose I can wait for that. He is saying they may possibly climb to as high as 380 fps. That should shut up the Dingdongs over at PSE.
80 lb XLR8 with a 30 inch draw. We will definatley be going over 400 fps with this thing.
Also Joe said he ordered 60 Monsters so if anybody is interested he will have plenty available. He ordered 15 of the XLR8's.
Post by: Todd_ID on April 03, 2009, 10:45:08 PM
Post by: archery288 on April 04, 2009, 07:32:34 AM
That should shut up the Dingdongs over at PSE.
There is actually some history behind the X-Force and the Monster... Matt McPherson had actually patented the design of the Monster if I remember right about 5 or so years back.. Anyways, after PSE came out with the X-Force he stepped in and made some changes to the PSE line by showing them what he had already taken credit for. If you notice the Monster looks very similar to an X-Force and if you look at the X-Force this year, it has some changes to the cam design and riser because Matt had already had the design patented.. So your quote is pretty much the truth because they can't use the same design as the monster.. :chuckle:
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 04, 2009, 12:20:08 PM
In response to the one pin to 90 yards, I have been down that road already and it does not work. I will always have a 20 yard pin regardless. ;)
Post by: Crunchy on April 04, 2009, 03:09:04 PM
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 04, 2009, 03:50:23 PM
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 04, 2009, 04:10:32 PM
Post by: Crunchy on April 04, 2009, 06:57:44 PM
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 04, 2009, 07:00:50 PM
Post by: Crunchy on April 04, 2009, 07:09:38 PM
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 04, 2009, 07:14:29 PM
Albeit cool people with no cashola.
Post by: xXx Archery on April 04, 2009, 09:31:25 PM
not with a hunting arrow ....and I bet it wont IBO at 380
If the bow Has a IBO speed of 380fps at 70lbs It will only shoot 381-382 at 80lbs
Post by: xXx Archery on April 04, 2009, 09:49:50 PM
That should shut up the Dingdongs over at PSE.
If you notice the Monster looks very similar to an X-Force and if you look at the X-Force this year, it has some changes to the cam design and riser because Matt had already had the design patented.. So your quote is pretty much the truth because they can't use the same design as the monster.. :chuckle:
Not true
The Riser on the X-Force is the same as 07-08 and 09 bows. They changed the cam to get 80% let off. PSE uses a cam&1/2 theMonster and the XLR8 are 2 cam bows.
the XLR8 had a IBO speed of 360 I dont think you will see them adding 20fps to that. with a 5" BH. The PSE Omen is shooting 366 with a 5 1/2" BH...and I have shot it...no one has even seen or shot the XLR8....but the guys at Mathews.
Post by: hoytem on April 04, 2009, 09:56:57 PM
Post by: xXx Archery on April 04, 2009, 10:09:59 PM
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 05, 2009, 09:25:27 AM
I have some arrows that we will be pushing the limits with. "Speed Pro Max". I never shot them out of my Hoyt when we had it at 100+ lbs draw. I am pretty certain that we would have gone 400+ with these arrows.
I also shot a Black Knight set at 83 lbs and we shot the same arrow that I shot out of my Hoyt. The Black Knight fired it at 383 fps.
All in all I am confident that we will be seeing some amazing velocities with this bow. I am extremely excited for the challenge of taking this speed bow with it's low brace height and dialing it in.
Post by: xXx Archery on April 05, 2009, 05:16:01 PM
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 05, 2009, 05:32:13 PM
Some people just don't get it. There are a few of us that can pull any poundage that we want anytime we want. I just so happen to be one of them. I am really sorry that your ego has taken a hit because there is someone that can actually pull any poundage they want and shoot it with accuracy to any yardage they want. Suck it up cry baby. You obviously did not read my post on Shot the Monster Today. If you want proof just call Joe At Rainier Archery and ask him or any body else that works there.
The funny thing is the Hoyt bows that I have shot over the years have never failed shooting light arrows. EVER! You could never say that about PSE. You know what that stands for don't you. Pile of *censored* Equipment.
Post by: mossback91 on April 05, 2009, 05:34:14 PM
Post by: xXx Archery on April 05, 2009, 05:50:00 PM
but if you knew any thing about bows you would know that I or you can shoot 400fps with a 60 or 70lbs bow....
OH look the XLR8 just came in the shop....looks good the draws alittle long as for most mathews...shoots good
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 05, 2009, 05:59:53 PM
I conceed you guys are a bunch of comedians.
Regardless I will be posting some numbers, JUST BECAUSE, it is something do do out of the ordinary. Also because somebody has to do it might as well be me.
Besides I have never competed and I am not a competitive archer, I do it all for my own personal gratification.
And when it all boils down to success in the field well faster is flatter right. So if I am perfectly capable of shooting 80-100 lbs and getting some ridiculously flat trajectory and kinetic energy off the chart why not?
Post by: xXx Archery on April 05, 2009, 06:11:09 PM
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 05, 2009, 06:32:35 PM
I think that it is cool that guys can get more speed and reduce the guessing game in estimating yardage on game animals. I also think that I can benefit and capitalise on the speed from the XLR8 in the field. I am really looking forward to it!!!!
So if some are fighting to shoot a 70 lb bow for speed then it makes sense for them to step down to the 60 lb speed bow.
I don't need to. I actually enjoy the challenge of shooting the high poundage speed bow with the low brace height. I actually think it makes ones form better because it has to be perfect.
Those 100 yard groups I posted were after having not shot for a month and a half and I made that clear in my post. When I am shooting regularly, yes I do shoot 6 inch groups at 100 yards. At any rate I will be reaping the benefits of the XLR8 this year. Should be fun.
Post by: xXx Archery on April 05, 2009, 07:02:12 PM
with a bow shooting 80lbs 400grain arrow (5 Grians per lbs) shoots 352fps with 110.7 lbs of Kinetic Energy
same bow shooting 70lbs 350 grain arrow .......................shoots 352fps with 96.4 lbs of Kinetic Energy
now washington hunting arrow
80lbs 480 grain arrow will shoot 323fps with 111.9 KE
70lbs 420 grain arrow will shoot 322fps with 97.3 KE
the pin gap is the same only -14 lbs of KE
from your posts I can see you are STRONG :chuckle:
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 05, 2009, 07:16:34 PM
I have already bounced an arrow off of a bulls shoulder bone and it was 305 fps ACC with a 85 gr thunderhead. Yes it bounced right out. Penetration was 1.5 inches. Tip bent over at 45 degree angle. CRAP!
I guess the fact that I intend to possibly go to Oregon this year, either rifle or bow, dictates that I will have options on how my setup will be. Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't Oregon have a 50 lb minimum for draw weight. I can not remember what the arrow weight restriction is.
Ultimatley I just freaking want to shoot that freaking bow at that poundage. No reason other than that. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 05, 2009, 07:19:50 PM
Post by: xXx Archery on April 05, 2009, 07:36:05 PM
Ok you caught me. I guess I read to many hunting articles over the years about missing out on the opportunity of a lifetime. I do not want that to ever happen to me. Hence because I can shoot those extremes I choose to for that reason.
I have already bounced an arrow off of a bulls shoulder bone and it was 305 fps ACC with a 85 gr thunderhead. Yes it bounced right out. Penetration was 1.5 inches. Tip bent over at 45 degree angle. CRAP!
I guess the fact that I intend to possibly go to Oregon this year, either rifle or bow, dictates that I will have options on how my setup will be. Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't Oregon have a 50 lb minimum for draw weight. I can not remember what the arrow weight restriction is.
Ultimatley I just freaking want to shoot that freaking bow at that poundage. No reason other than that. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Like I said that is cool shoot what you want and what you shoot the best ...it all comes down to shot placment....you will not get threw the shoulder of a big bull no matter how much KE you have :dunno:
as for Oregon there are no arrow weight limits just 50lbs.
as for lbs of a bow I shoot where the bow groups the best for that arrow. the bow I hunted elk in Idaho with this year was set at 69lbs the bow I hunted Texas Whitetail with was 75lbs...so on my Omen this year knowing I am shooting ACC PRO Hunter this year 390's I need to shoot about 60-63lbs... should be good for my Washington Muley hunt and my Oregon Elk hunt. :chuckle:
Post by: xXx Archery on April 05, 2009, 07:45:53 PM
Well if you think 400 fps is easy then I guess you just raised the bar for me. 420 here I come! :chuckle: :chuckle:
only 2 things help can get speed are Arrow weight per lbs and draw lenght
so a XLR8 with 30 draw 70lbs shooting a 250 grain arrow will shoot just over 400fps...at 3.5 grains per lbs.
so the Omen will do the same :chuckle:
I can tell you this I dont want you or anyone else in My Shop shooting a bow like that near My Customers.
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on April 05, 2009, 08:09:53 PM
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 05, 2009, 08:25:39 PM
Oh here it comes...........................What a ding bat............................. :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 05, 2009, 08:46:46 PM
I love to hunt Elk with my bow and I will take every possible advantage that is available. This year that just so happens to be the XLR8. Don't try to convince me otherwise it will not work.
Now just be satisfied that you have tried to convice me that I do not need the Monster at 80 lbs. I am getting it and there is nothing you can do to stop it, well other than cut my arms off. :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on April 05, 2009, 08:53:29 PM
Well Hoyt considering that you have had the honor of only shooting one elk it seems that you are sticking you uneducated head somewhere it does not belong.
Oh here it comes...........................What a ding bat............................. :chuckle: :chuckle:
your right, only had the honor of one elk so far on my only real elk hunt I have done.... shot him within 6 hours.. Id say I did OK, deer on the other hand I have had the honor to shoot a few.. either way shot placement is key, doesnt matter what animal... all im saying is with groups that good the shoulder should never have been a issue.......
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on April 05, 2009, 08:57:32 PM
Well Hoyt considering that you have had the honor of only shooting one elk it seems that you are sticking you uneducated head somewhere it does not belong.
Oh here it comes...........................What a ding bat............................. :chuckle: :chuckle:
your right, only had the honor of one elk so far on my only real elk hunt I have done.... shot him within 6 hours.. Id say I did OK, deer on the other hand I have had the honor to shoot a few.. either way shot placement is key, doesnt matter what animal... all im saying is with groups that good the shoulder should never have been a issue.......
Im also curious to how that I have only shot 1 bull makes me uneducated on shot placement of the size of a animals shoulder bone structure? the measure of success is not always in how many you kill.....
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 05, 2009, 08:58:37 PM
Chuck Adams will even admit that he has made bad shots, are you better than him?
Post by: mossback91 on April 05, 2009, 09:01:25 PM
Post by: xXx Archery on April 05, 2009, 09:09:36 PM
and I have shot some with HoytStaffShooter.....yes he can shoot....flat out...the way I see it is you have shot and LOST more elk then him....GOOD for ya...key word LOST
Post by: xXx Archery on April 05, 2009, 09:12:00 PM
Hey all this is all just fun and games. I don't mean to piss any body off. I will do what I will do and it does not matter what anybody advises otherwise. That is just the monster inside of me.But there such BIG STRONG ARMS :tung:
I love to hunt Elk with my bow and I will take every possible advantage that is available. This year that just so happens to be the XLR8. Don't try to convince me otherwise it will not work.
Now just be satisfied that you have tried to convice me that I do not need the Monster at 80 lbs. I am getting it and there is nothing you can do to stop it, well other than cut my arms off. :chuckle: :chuckle:
We are not trying to talk you out of it just asking why?
If you want to buy a 80lb bow from me I will sell it to ya...I just dont want you shooting 3 or 4 grain per lb. in my shop :)
Hey Hoytstaffshooter I will see you In Redding Ca. in a few weeks ....hows your new bow shooting?..I think I have good marks and the 2nd and 3rd axis's are level.....the BMXL is shooting SOOO good just need to go check my 88 yarder and 101 yarder....hey We arer putting on a Redding Warm-up on 18-19 are you going to shoot it?...its in St.Helens
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on April 05, 2009, 09:13:43 PM
So what you are saying then is you are a calm cool cat regardless and you make a perfect shot 100% of the time. You are patting yourself on the back a little to much. If you want a little respect then you are going to, at some point in time, admit that you are not perfect.
Chuck Adams will even admit that he has made bad shots, are you better than him?
everyone makes a bad shot, I have as well, just not on a target quite that size.. the one bull I killed I made sure to aim a few inches back from the shoulder to make sure I did not hit it, the lungs/liver are quite a large target to hit and from where I aim id really have to push a shot really bad to hit the shoulder.. and that has not happend yet. could it? sure anything COULD happen..... all im saying is since your that good with a bow then shooting behind the shoulder on a very large animal should be a walk in the park, even with a "bad" shot.. you have killed way more elk then me, kudos for that, I have had lots of chances are all the cards did not quite line up for me.... thats bowhunting.. when I get a shot, I make the shot, I can thank that to shooting 500+ arrows a week all year long
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on April 05, 2009, 09:17:05 PM
I really hope to, I will admit I certainly need it.. between working 3 jobs and on the weekends I have not shot my Pro elite outdoors once yet!!! I dont expect alot from redding for me, just another shoot, the AM35 I have for hunting is awesome! I love it! tell joe I need the 18th/19th off!!!Hey all this is all just fun and games. I don't mean to piss any body off. I will do what I will do and it does not matter what anybody advises otherwise. That is just the monster inside of me.But there such BIG STRONG ARMS :tung:
I love to hunt Elk with my bow and I will take every possible advantage that is available. This year that just so happens to be the XLR8. Don't try to convince me otherwise it will not work.
Now just be satisfied that you have tried to convice me that I do not need the Monster at 80 lbs. I am getting it and there is nothing you can do to stop it, well other than cut my arms off. :chuckle: :chuckle:
We are not trying to talk you out of it just asking why?
If you want to buy a 80lb bow from me I will sell it to ya...I just dont want you shooting 3 or 4 grain per lb. in my shop :)
Hey Hoytstaffshooter I will see you In Redding Ca. in a few weeks ....hows your new bow shooting?..I think I have good marks and the 2nd and 3rd axis's are level.....the BMXL is shooting SOOO good just need to go check my 88 yarder and 101 yarder....hey We arer putting on a Redding Warm-up on 18-19 are you going to shoot it?...its in St.Helens
Post by: xXx Archery on April 05, 2009, 09:21:14 PM
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 05, 2009, 09:33:39 PM
Where is the limit? Is the limit what you make it or what some archery organization makes it. I MAKE MY OWN LIMITS PERIOD. So you can take your AMO, IBO bla bla bla rules and shove them up your stink hole. I DO NOT CARE ABOUT SOME STUPID ORGANIZATION THAT LIMITS MY ABILITIES. You will never stop me from utilizing my abilities.
Well that is pretty much like taking the new diesel race cars and limiting them to make it fair for all the inefficient gas guzzling cars they are competing against. What a bunch of bull crap!!!!
New technology always gets beat down. It usually takes years for people to finally realise that it actually was better.
Remember the TUCKER. The car that was way ahead of it's time. They got shut down now look at the pathetic american auto industry.
Well I am Way ahead of all you followers. You keep following the regular old crap an I will keep jumping ahead.
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 05, 2009, 09:45:47 PM
So what you are saying then is you are a calm cool cat regardless and you make a perfect shot 100% of the time. You are patting yourself on the back a little to much. If you want a little respect then you are going to, at some point in time, admit that you are not perfect.
Chuck Adams will even admit that he has made bad shots, are you better than him?
everyone makes a bad shot, I have as well, just not on a target quite that size.. the one bull I killed I made sure to aim a few inches back from the shoulder to make sure I did not hit it, the lungs/liver are quite a large target to hit and from where I aim id really have to push a shot really bad to hit the shoulder.. and that has not happend yet. could it? sure anything COULD happen..... all im saying is since your that good with a bow then shooting behind the shoulder on a very large animal should be a walk in the park, even with a "bad" shot.. you have killed way more elk then me, kudos for that, I have had lots of chances are all the cards did not quite line up for me.... thats bowhunting.. when I get a shot, I make the shot, I can thank that to shooting 500+ arrows a week all year long
That is because you have not shot at 14 elk. And you really are full of yourself. When you have been in the company of as many elk as I have then I might listen but...........................................Nope I am not listening this time. You have a few years before I will reaspect what you say about hunting Elk.
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 05, 2009, 10:05:43 PM
I saw a thread with wapitihunters elk kills on here a while back...........I will say he is pretty damn good at killin elk!!! :archer:
I like you mossback. :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on April 05, 2009, 10:13:51 PM
So what you are saying then is you are a calm cool cat regardless and you make a perfect shot 100% of the time. You are patting yourself on the back a little to much. If you want a little respect then you are going to, at some point in time, admit that you are not perfect.
Chuck Adams will even admit that he has made bad shots, are you better than him?
everyone makes a bad shot, I have as well, just not on a target quite that size.. the one bull I killed I made sure to aim a few inches back from the shoulder to make sure I did not hit it, the lungs/liver are quite a large target to hit and from where I aim id really have to push a shot really bad to hit the shoulder.. and that has not happend yet. could it? sure anything COULD happen..... all im saying is since your that good with a bow then shooting behind the shoulder on a very large animal should be a walk in the park, even with a "bad" shot.. you have killed way more elk then me, kudos for that, I have had lots of chances are all the cards did not quite line up for me.... thats bowhunting.. when I get a shot, I make the shot, I can thank that to shooting 500+ arrows a week all year long
That is because you have not shot at 14 elk. And you really are full of yourself. When you have been in the company of as many elk as I have then I might listen but...........................................Nope I am not listening this time. You have a few years before I will reaspect what you say about hunting Elk.
It has nothing to do with how many elk I have shot at, shooting in a shoot off style comp is 10 x's the nerves and pressure of hunting and the "moment of truth".. its not even close.. but as you said you are not a target shooter, just a hunter so you have no CLUE what im talking about, and I have had big bulls scream in my face at under 15yrds.... so I may not have killed as many as you, but I have been in close and had the nerves and seen huge bulls. again its not even on the same level as having people watch you and shooting side by side arrow for arrow against your oponent when $$ is on the line.. ask any good target shooter/bowhunter and they will back that up....... so combine shooting year round at a high level, knowing and learning from some of the best shooters in the country and shooting 1000's of arrows a year. that is why I make my shots count on animals......
Post by: xXx Archery on April 05, 2009, 10:18:51 PM
Post by: funkster on April 06, 2009, 12:39:08 AM
I shot the monster as well and it is a fast bow, an old racing injury to my pull shoulder finally is starting to bother me again so I switched this year to a Mathews reezen 7.0 set at 70lbs with a 30 inch draw. It was shooting a 450 grain arrow at 281fps 9 fps faster than the Hoyt alpha max. The draw on the reezen is much smoother all the way through the cycle than the alphamax and the monster is IMPO. I figured on lighting up the poundage this year and really focusing on shot placement and it might save my shoulder a few more years.
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 08, 2009, 08:27:43 AM
In contrast my Hoyt at 77 lbs shot the same arrow at 5 fps slower with a 30 inch draw. So the Monster is fast and efficient.
They are selling like hot cakes. Everytime I go in he has sold several more.
A clumbsy customer dry fired Joe's demo bow and broke the strings. He thinks there may be some other damage as it really should be a tad faster.
At any rate the draw cycle is smooth and even all the way till the very end and then there is a little bump as the cam rolls over.
Post by: xXx Archery on April 08, 2009, 12:08:08 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 08, 2009, 12:19:49 PM
seriously...every time a thread comes on here like this, it goes to hell.
why is that?
Post by: MuleySniper on April 08, 2009, 12:26:41 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 08, 2009, 12:30:49 PM
Post by: boneaddict on April 08, 2009, 12:32:12 PM
Post by: boneaddict on April 08, 2009, 12:33:51 PM
Post by: Gobble on April 08, 2009, 12:55:40 PM
by the way, where is the resident know it all with his 100 confirmed kills.... :chuckle:
:chuckle:
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 08, 2009, 01:26:13 PM
Just so you know when I do finally hit 400 whether that be 400.0000 or 400.0001 fps I will be through. If I do 409 that's just a bonus! :chuckle:
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 08, 2009, 01:48:03 PM
Its do to the simple folks like me that think and apply simple physics versus magazine article formulas. The harder it is to pull, the heavier the projectile it will wing at a fast speed. If it does it accurately, then perf. :)
Are you related to Einstein Bone? If not, you should be.
That's the best explanations I have ever heard. :tup:
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 08, 2009, 03:56:43 PM
I agree that there is not an arrow made that will penetrate the main leg bone, but there is that will plow through those shoulder blades.
I shot the 4x4 bull from 15 yards and that ACC blew through the shoulder blade and shattererd his spine.
Post by: hoytem on April 08, 2009, 09:39:59 PM
Post by: funkster on April 09, 2009, 08:51:05 AM
As far as kinetic energy goes. The Bull I shot this past season I put the last arrow through both shoulder blades at 10 yards. The butcher was quite impressed when he saw that.(He is a bow hunter) I have to say that I was a bit surprised myself that it plowed through both shoulder blades. That is what I am after by pulling all the poundage. It seems to work.
Hoytem, Sounds like it was pretty necessary to me. Do that with a 40lbs bow!
Post by: hoytem on April 09, 2009, 09:13:07 AM
As far as kinetic energy goes. The Bull I shot this past season I put the last arrow through both shoulder blades at 10 yards. The butcher was quite impressed when he saw that.(He is a bow hunter) I have to say that I was a bit surprised myself that it plowed through both shoulder blades. That is what I am after by pulling all the poundage. It seems to work.
Hoytem, Sounds like it was pretty necessary to me. Do that with a 40lbs bow!
tell your story to Tred Barta's annoying eccentric ass...
Post by: funkster on April 09, 2009, 09:24:42 AM
As far as kinetic energy goes. The Bull I shot this past season I put the last arrow through both shoulder blades at 10 yards. The butcher was quite impressed when he saw that.(He is a bow hunter) I have to say that I was a bit surprised myself that it plowed through both shoulder blades. That is what I am after by pulling all the poundage. It seems to work.
Hoytem, Sounds like it was pretty necessary to me. Do that with a 40lbs bow!
tell your story to Tred Barta's annoying eccentric ass...
That was hilarious! However,every show I saw him hunt elk he went home with a a warm cup of tag soup.
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 09, 2009, 09:30:59 AM
Post by: hoytem on April 09, 2009, 09:35:22 AM
Post by: jackelope on April 09, 2009, 09:46:07 AM
is there ever a thread reagrding archers and shooting and archery shops that doesn't turn into a pissing match? it's almost ridiculous the way you kids are whining back and forth about who has the bigger d--k and who can pull more weight and why.
seriously...every time a thread comes on here like this, it goes to hell.
why is that?
Post by: hoytem on April 09, 2009, 09:51:52 AM
Post by: WAPITIHUNTER on April 09, 2009, 10:18:59 AM
Those that can do something usually do...........................Those that can't do it don't and then complain about it like little cry babies :cryriver:
I suppose to make it fair for all the Pro Basket Ball players they should have had Michaael Jordan wear 10 pound ankle weights.
I also seriously doubt that Howard Hill would have won 196 strait Archery shoots had he been required to shoot a 40 pound bow. Then again there are those that excell even when people try to hold them back to make it fair. :twocents:
Post by: jackelope on April 09, 2009, 10:20:43 AM
:twocents:
Post by: mossback91 on April 09, 2009, 10:21:46 AM
Post by: funkster on April 09, 2009, 10:27:22 AM
it's almost ridiculous the way you kids are whining back and forth about who has the bigger d--k and who can pull more weight and why.
Inferiority complex usually comes from those who don't not those who do or those who can't not those who can.
Post by: jackelope on April 09, 2009, 10:31:41 AM
locked.
Post by: hoytem on April 09, 2009, 10:35:00 AM