Post by: wolfbait on December 21, 2019, 09:25:05 AM
https://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/articles/deer-news/more-deer-killed-by-wolves-than-by-hunters-in-2019?fbclid=IwAR1J4ZiHDSLOlCPK6WydJOqADRtK7wGx4EYf3SWX4ovrwFs5A00Rp0i5xOk#.XfvY_dx5BLA.facebook
Post by: nwwanderer on December 22, 2019, 05:30:49 AM
Post by: opdinkslayer on December 22, 2019, 07:11:58 AM
Post by: Buckjunkie on December 22, 2019, 07:36:52 AM
Propose legislation holding judges financially responsible for damages from non scientific decisions. If they want to go rogue and override we the people, then they should pay.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 22, 2019, 07:55:01 AM
Post by: KFhunter on December 22, 2019, 11:59:43 AM
https://www.denverpost.com/2019/07/10/gray-wolf-colorado-wyoming/
Quote
The wolf sighting in northern Colorado was no optical illusion.
Colorado Parks and Wildlife confirmed Wednesday the rare beast to be a from the Snake River pack in Wyoming.
The wolf was last recorded Feb. 12 by transmission signals, parks and wildlife said.
The Wyoming Game and Fishing Department confirmed the reports out of Jackson County, a rural stretch of the state that hugs the Wyoming border.
So what I don't get is Colorado has a few dispersers show up and it makes headline news, yet Washington somehow has 100's of them pop up in just a short couple of years.
Colorado should have been fully repopulated by now following what they say about Washington. It is closer to YNP and WY, which is where it all started ya?
"In Washington State, wolves were not reintroduced, but populations have been reestablished through the natural expansion of the Idaho population"
Why didn't wolves do the same in Colorado :dunno: :dunno:
Post by: Bob33 on December 22, 2019, 12:59:55 PM
Why doesn't Colorado have any wolves, yet Washington is loaded with them?It may have taken them a little longer to get there but there are multiple sightings; I believe their presence will be officially recognized soon.
https://www.denverpost.com/2019/07/10/gray-wolf-colorado-wyoming/QuoteThe wolf sighting in northern Colorado was no optical illusion.
Colorado Parks and Wildlife confirmed Wednesday the rare beast to be a from the Snake River pack in Wyoming.
The wolf was last recorded Feb. 12 by transmission signals, parks and wildlife said.
The Wyoming Game and Fishing Department confirmed the reports out of Jackson County, a rural stretch of the state that hugs the Wyoming border.
So what I don't get is Colorado has a few dispersers show up and it makes headline news, yet Washington somehow has 100's of them pop up in just a short couple of years.
Colorado should have been fully repopulated by now following what they say about Washington. It is closer to YNP and WY, which is where it all started ya?
"In Washington State, wolves were not reintroduced, but populations have been reestablished through the natural expansion of the Idaho population"
Why didn't wolves do the same in Colorado :dunno: :dunno:
Post by: hunter399 on December 22, 2019, 02:08:55 PM
Post by: jackelope on December 22, 2019, 02:16:10 PM
Why doesn't Colorado have any wolves, yet Washington is loaded with them?
https://www.denverpost.com/2019/07/10/gray-wolf-colorado-wyoming/QuoteThe wolf sighting in northern Colorado was no optical illusion.
Colorado Parks and Wildlife confirmed Wednesday the rare beast to be a from the Snake River pack in Wyoming.
The wolf was last recorded Feb. 12 by transmission signals, parks and wildlife said.
The Wyoming Game and Fishing Department confirmed the reports out of Jackson County, a rural stretch of the state that hugs the Wyoming border.
So what I don't get is Colorado has a few dispersers show up and it makes headline news, yet Washington somehow has 100's of them pop up in just a short couple of years.
Colorado should have been fully repopulated by now following what they say about Washington. It is closer to YNP and WY, which is where it all started ya?
"In Washington State, wolves were not reintroduced, but populations have been reestablished through the natural expansion of the Idaho population"
Why didn't wolves do the same in Colorado :dunno: :dunno:
There’s a lot of talk in Colorado currently of an actual reintroduction. The push is for voters to make it happen in 2020.
Post by: wolfbait on December 22, 2019, 02:30:39 PM
Why doesn't Colorado have any wolves, yet Washington is loaded with them?
https://www.denverpost.com/2019/07/10/gray-wolf-colorado-wyoming/QuoteThe wolf sighting in northern Colorado was no optical illusion.
Colorado Parks and Wildlife confirmed Wednesday the rare beast to be a from the Snake River pack in Wyoming.
The wolf was last recorded Feb. 12 by transmission signals, parks and wildlife said.
The Wyoming Game and Fishing Department confirmed the reports out of Jackson County, a rural stretch of the state that hugs the Wyoming border.
So what I don't get is Colorado has a few dispersers show up and it makes headline news, yet Washington somehow has 100's of them pop up in just a short couple of years.
Colorado should have been fully repopulated by now following what they say about Washington. It is closer to YNP and WY, which is where it all started ya?
"In Washington State, wolves were not reintroduced, but populations have been reestablished through the natural expansion of the Idaho population"
Why didn't wolves do the same in Colorado :dunno: :dunno:
Well it's probably pretty much the same as WA, remember wolves were reported to WDFW for several years before WDFW were finally forced to confirm a wolf pack. Nine years back many of the people on H-W believed WDFW were honest and would do the right thing.
I found out at a later date, several ranches in WA had been taking care of their wolf problems before the lie of first wolf pack in 70 years. If CF&W is anything like WDFW they will try to hide the existence of wolves as long as they can. After all the wolf is about shutting down hunting and ruining ranching.
Wolves have a way of "migrating" into cattle country..
WDFW and crew aren't sure where their wolves came from:
The “Naturally Migrating” GI Wolves
http://tomremington.com/2014/06/09/the-naturally-migrating-gi-wolves/
Post by: Taco280AI on December 22, 2019, 02:35:24 PM
Post by: wolfbait on December 22, 2019, 02:46:45 PM
May 15, 2015
There was a wolf shot by a coyote hunter in Grand County Colorado on April 29th. Here is the investigation report.
"At approximately 10 a.m., Wednesday, April 29, while hunting on BLM land near Wolford Mountain Reservoir in Grand County, a licensed coyote hunter shot and killed what he says he thought was a coyote. Upon further inspection, the hunter discovered that the animal appeared to be a wolf.
The hunter immediately called the CPW office in Hot Sulphur Springs to report the incident. A District Wildlife Manager responded to the scene to investigate.
The officer brought the carcass to CPW's office in Hot Sulphur Springs where it was inspected further by additional agency personnel.
The Area Wildlife Manager invited a biologist from Alaska, who coincidentally was attending the 49th North American Moose Conference and Workshop in Kremmling, to visually inspect the carcass.
Based on the initial, visual inspection by CPW personnel and the biologist from Alaska, the animal appeared to be a wild, male gray wolf, weighing approximately 90 lbs; however, DNA analysis to identify the animal will be conducted by the USFWS, as they have taken the lead in the investigation.
CPW will hold and care for the carcass until an agent from the USFWS takes possession, likely today.
The animal did not have a collar, ear tag or PIT tag when it was inspected.
According to the USFWS, it may take several weeks to determine with certainty whether the animal is a gray wolf.
The hunter has not been charged for the the illegal take of a gray wolf at this time, pending further investigation and identification of the animal."
FRIENDS, they (the wolf) are here. It is time to rally around Big Game Forever's campaign to support the National Delisting of the Wolf. We can't afford another major predator in Colorado. If you are interested in helping push for the National Delisting and working on this issue here in Colorado, email me.
Denny C. Behrens
coloradomuley@charter.net
https://www.facebook.com/groups/wolfcrossing/permalink/10153259461637086/
In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only. s: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
Post by: KFhunter on December 22, 2019, 03:15:56 PM
Italy: https://www.thelocal.it/20160311/italian-region-asks-to-hunt-its-wolves-to-instead-paying-farmers-fo-damage
France: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/20/france-wolf-population-grow-40-anger-farmers
Germany: https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-wolf-population-on-the-rise-new-data-shows/a-41503395
Europe: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jan/26/harmless-or-vicious-hunter-the-uneasy-return-of-europes-wolves
Finland: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/25/europe-wolf-population-finland-culling-protection
'It's very scary in the forest': should Finland's wolves be culled?
Russia: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/15/wolf-attacks-lead-to-state-of-emergency-in-russias-siberia-regio/
Wolf attacks lead to state of emergency in Russia's Siberia region
So Washington went from no known packs in 2008 to what we have now in 10 years and they did this all by themselves naturally,
so why haven't they done this in Colorado where they have the largest Elk population of any state, more deer than Washington by estimated 100K or more, and better wolf habitat?
How come wolves "naturally" exploded in WA, but CO gets all excited if they see a roaming dispurser from Wyoming?
We know Idaho wolves were planted, same with Montana and of course Wyoming.
But so far Utah and Colorado have largely been spared from "naturally expanding wolves" they certinatly didn't expand there like they did in Washington..which was my question. Why?
and what's with the global wolf explosion?
I just don't see how they could have spread so fast in Washington naturally, and not done likewise in Colorado/Utah.
Post by: Taco280AI on December 22, 2019, 03:34:02 PM
Post by: Bob33 on December 22, 2019, 03:50:53 PM
Post by: greenhead_killer on December 22, 2019, 08:28:29 PM
Post by: Humptulips on December 22, 2019, 08:59:58 PM
Why doesn't Colorado have any wolves, yet Washington is loaded with them?They had to make a choice Coors or Rainier :dunno:
https://www.denverpost.com/2019/07/10/gray-wolf-colorado-wyoming/QuoteThe wolf sighting in northern Colorado was no optical illusion.
Colorado Parks and Wildlife confirmed Wednesday the rare beast to be a from the Snake River pack in Wyoming.
The wolf was last recorded Feb. 12 by transmission signals, parks and wildlife said.
The Wyoming Game and Fishing Department confirmed the reports out of Jackson County, a rural stretch of the state that hugs the Wyoming border.
So what I don't get is Colorado has a few dispersers show up and it makes headline news, yet Washington somehow has 100's of them pop up in just a short couple of years.
Colorado should have been fully repopulated by now following what they say about Washington. It is closer to YNP and WY, which is where it all started ya?
"In Washington State, wolves were not reintroduced, but populations have been reestablished through the natural expansion of the Idaho population"
Why didn't wolves do the same in Colorado :dunno: :dunno:
Post by: wolfbait on December 23, 2019, 10:35:36 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on December 23, 2019, 11:03:33 AM
Def planted here. Too random to have certain areas explode with wolves when there were non previous. It’s insane these people(wdfg and pro wolf cronies) continue to lie about them not being plantedWolves were not planted in WA. That is an undeniable fact - and after decades of wolves not one single credible piece of evidence has ever surfaced to suggest otherwise. It makes hunters look stupid and absurd when this conspiracy theory is pushed, which is exactly why we should all reject it if we hear fellow hunters making such claims.
I just don't see how they could have spread so fast in Washington naturally, and not done likewise in Colorado/Utah.Bob33 basically gave you the answer. Look at where wolves were re-introduced and the habitat type and prey surrounding those locations and it's pretty logical to see why they moved to NE WA very quickly and not so much to other areas.
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on December 23, 2019, 11:34:43 AM
Why doesn't Colorado have any wolves, yet Washington is loaded with them?They had to make a choice Coors or Rainier :dunno:
https://www.denverpost.com/2019/07/10/gray-wolf-colorado-wyoming/QuoteThe wolf sighting in northern Colorado was no optical illusion.
Colorado Parks and Wildlife confirmed Wednesday the rare beast to be a from the Snake River pack in Wyoming.
The wolf was last recorded Feb. 12 by transmission signals, parks and wildlife said.
The Wyoming Game and Fishing Department confirmed the reports out of Jackson County, a rural stretch of the state that hugs the Wyoming border.
So what I don't get is Colorado has a few dispersers show up and it makes headline news, yet Washington somehow has 100's of them pop up in just a short couple of years.
Colorado should have been fully repopulated by now following what they say about Washington. It is closer to YNP and WY, which is where it all started ya?
"In Washington State, wolves were not reintroduced, but populations have been reestablished through the natural expansion of the Idaho population"
Why didn't wolves do the same in Colorado :dunno: :dunno:
:yike:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 23, 2019, 11:42:57 AM
Post by: wolfbait on December 23, 2019, 04:34:58 PM
Talking to the folks from Wyoming and Idaho over the years, they said they had never heard of wolves migrating, they had on the other hand watched the slaughter of ungulates spread wide as the wolves ate their way outward. I think it is referred to as wolves dispersing.
I wonder, was it Scott Fitkin that came out with the first wolf migration?
Post by: boneaddict on December 24, 2019, 08:18:38 AM
Quote
came out with the first wolf migration?
In the back of a white van .....
Post by: KFhunter on December 24, 2019, 08:35:16 AM
Def planted here. Too random to have certain areas explode with wolves when there were non previous. It’s insane these people(wdfg and pro wolf cronies) continue to lie about them not being plantedWolves were not planted in WA. That is an undeniable fact - and after decades of wolves not one single credible piece of evidence has ever surfaced to suggest otherwise. It makes hunters look stupid and absurd when this conspiracy theory is pushed, which is exactly why we should all reject it if we hear fellow hunters making such claims.I just don't see how they could have spread so fast in Washington naturally, and not done likewise in Colorado/Utah.Bob33 basically gave you the answer. Look at where wolves were re-introduced and the habitat type and prey surrounding those locations and it's pretty logical to see why they moved to NE WA very quickly and not so much to other areas.
BS
https://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/pressrel/11-03.htm
This particular wolf was poisoned.....
Quote
2009 Death of Gray Wolf in Colorado Tied to Banned Poison
Law enforcement officials from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service announced today that the Yellowstone-area gray wolf found dead in Colorado in 2009 was illegally poisoned.
The radio-collared female gray wolf was found near Rio Blanco County Road 60 on April 6, 2009 after researchers received the mortality signal from her GPS tracking collar. Toxicology tests performed at the National Fish and Wildlife Forensic Laboratory showed the two-year-old gray wolf, which had been captured and collared as part of a Montana research project, died from ingesting a banned poison known as Compound 1080. It is suspected the wolf ingested the poison near the site where she was found.
There's no habitat barrier between YNP and Colorado. So again, we know wolves have been dispersing into Colorado since wolves were introduced into YNP.
WHY haven't they taken hold in Colorado like in WA, when Colorado has so much more game and more suitable wolf habitat??
Post by: KFhunter on December 24, 2019, 08:47:16 AM
“It’s encouraging that we have connectivity,” said Rob Edward, of WildEarth Guardians, referring to the wolf’s peregrination to Colorado.
Two more wolves that made it into Colorado but died, one to unknown and another to vehicle strike
https://www.summitdaily.com/news/yellowstone-wolf-dies-in-colorado/
These are just 3 examples of wolves that met their demise, there's gotta be a whole lot more that did make it into Colorado we don't know about.
Post by: boneaddict on December 24, 2019, 09:07:54 AM
Much can be said about the Cougar population. There were plenty of cats but they werent seen much, so it left an impression with the unaware that there werent any. Now they are a dime a dozen, but in reality THATS A PROBLEM
I'm sure there are wolves in Colorado. There is alot of feed and habitat. Man.....wants to monkey around and get one standing underneath every lone pine on the hill
Post by: KFhunter on December 24, 2019, 09:12:37 AM
What was the trigger?
Post by: boneaddict on December 24, 2019, 09:16:12 AM
Kinda like dumping turkeys here and there. Sooner or later a couple catch on. Difference being is that Turkeys don't mess with the balance much in the food chain.
We know why the Cat balance went haywire. I dont think there is a factor that can be pointed at for the wolves other than the elephant in the room. It can be argued that the increase in cats or bear would seem to have a negative impact on the wolves being able to blossom. Logically anyways! Yes, there was the removal of trapping or traditional trapping, but I think its safe to say that there wasnt much impact from Trappers in the Methow on the wolves.
Post by: KFhunter on December 24, 2019, 09:32:49 AM
I know where the wolves were killed. A few months later after all the dust settled all the sudden there was wolf tracks everywhere, tracks from a whole pack of wolves.
Wolves naturally disperse as singles or maybe even pairs, but this was as if a whole pack left somewhere else and showed up all the sudden in 105
Post by: idahohuntr on December 24, 2019, 11:14:16 AM
Wolves dont distribute uniformly across landscapes...its pretty logical that wolves havent moved faster or in greater numbers south and east out of ynp and idaho into Co or Ut. Similar situation in Idaho when you compare North vs. South.Def planted here. Too random to have certain areas explode with wolves when there were non previous. It’s insane these people(wdfg and pro wolf cronies) continue to lie about them not being plantedWolves were not planted in WA. That is an undeniable fact - and after decades of wolves not one single credible piece of evidence has ever surfaced to suggest otherwise. It makes hunters look stupid and absurd when this conspiracy theory is pushed, which is exactly why we should all reject it if we hear fellow hunters making such claims.I just don't see how they could have spread so fast in Washington naturally, and not done likewise in Colorado/Utah.Bob33 basically gave you the answer. Look at where wolves were re-introduced and the habitat type and prey surrounding those locations and it's pretty logical to see why they moved to NE WA very quickly and not so much to other areas.
BS
https://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/pressrel/11-03.htm
This particular wolf was poisoned.....Quote2009 Death of Gray Wolf in Colorado Tied to Banned Poison
Law enforcement officials from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service announced today that the Yellowstone-area gray wolf found dead in Colorado in 2009 was illegally poisoned.
The radio-collared female gray wolf was found near Rio Blanco County Road 60 on April 6, 2009 after researchers received the mortality signal from her GPS tracking collar. Toxicology tests performed at the National Fish and Wildlife Forensic Laboratory showed the two-year-old gray wolf, which had been captured and collared as part of a Montana research project, died from ingesting a banned poison known as Compound 1080. It is suspected the wolf ingested the poison near the site where she was found.
There's no habitat barrier between YNP and Colorado. So again, we know wolves have been dispersing into Colorado since wolves were introduced into YNP.
WHY haven't they taken hold in Colorado like in WA, when Colorado has so much more game and more suitable wolf habitat??
What's your explanation? The guys who spray chemtrails in the off season run around releasing secret packs of wolves as part of a conspiracy with state and federal agencies?? :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: KFhunter on December 24, 2019, 12:26:52 PM
Or you could just keep being nasty to other HW'rs :dunno:
Post by: idahohuntr on December 24, 2019, 01:23:20 PM
I don't have an explanation, I asked you, the HW wolf "expert"So you don't have an explanation, but you post "BS" when I give you a very logical one? Classic.
Or you could just keep being nasty to other HW'rs :dunno:
Post by: KFhunter on December 24, 2019, 01:25:47 PM
I don't buy that theory.
next?
Post by: Platensek-po on December 24, 2019, 01:49:34 PM
You're argument was there is a habitat/prey barrier preventing wolves from migrating to Colorado. I disproved that by citing verified examples of wolves doing just that, and those were just wolves we knew about because they were killed and made a big deal of.
I don't buy that theory.
next?
Heading east out of Yellowstone in comparison to north and west is waaay different. I lived in Jackson hole and drove from there to Denver multiple times. The habitat in eastern Wyoming does not seem as suitable for wolves as southern Montana or eastern Idaho. If I was a wolf I wouldn’t want to go into eastern Wyoming either. I can see how a wolf could wander over to Colorado but to have packs expanding through eastern Wyoming does not make sense. Just my opinion though as I have no actual facts to back any of it up. I also know that wolves from Canada have been found in Montana as well so not sure why the wolves would have to come from Yellowstone??
Post by: KFhunter on December 24, 2019, 01:57:35 PM
We know that wolves did make it to Colorado, I agree heading north seems more likely habitat wise but wolves don't always make since in their migrations.
Of all the wolves that landed in Colorado, my question is why didn't they take root?
Post by: Platensek-po on December 24, 2019, 02:00:42 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on December 24, 2019, 02:15:21 PM
You're argument was there is a habitat/prey barrier preventing wolves from migrating to Colorado. I disproved that by citing verified examples of wolves doing just that, and those were just wolves we knew about because they were killed and made a big deal of.:chuckle:
I don't buy that theory.
next?
I never said any such thing, quite an imagination you've got there..of course wolves can and do move into CO. I was addressing why its been relatively few and slower than what we saw in N. Idaho and NE WA. Wolves can cover a lot of ground - it would be foolish for anyone to suggest they can't migrate somewhere.
As per your question about why the ones that did make it to CO but haven't "taken hold"..simple, habitat and numbers. Again, look at Idaho for an even closer example...not many wolves in S. Idaho even though its really close to both the Idaho release site and YNP site...and lots of elk and mule deer. Why is N. Idaho crawling with wolves but not all of S. Idaho??? Why are there not wolves crawling all over Eastern Mt, Eastern WY, like they have in the W/NW parts of those states?
Hmmm...because wolves don't distribute evenly all over the landscape...and if there are very few migrating through relatively poor wolf habitat to get to CO, its going to be a lot longer/harder for them to get established.
Again, this is pretty simple stuff and it seems many folks that have a breadth of western hunting experience get it. If you haven't spent much time outside of NE Wa it might not be as obvious :dunno:
Post by: KFhunter on December 24, 2019, 02:27:05 PM
but your so intent on obfuscating, diverting and subverting the truth you just resort to slandering me personally because I dare bring it up, like there's this big secret I might reveal.
I'm just asking questions :dunno:
Post by: idahohuntr on December 24, 2019, 02:43:07 PM
Colorado has excellent wolf habitat, just ask any one of your precious groups like DOW, Colorado Wolf and Wildlife Center, the list goes on and on and on ...take your pick, any wolf ORG group will gladly inform you how Colorado has excellent wolf habitat and how they'd thrive there. and we know that they have indeed been there, yet didn't take root dispite this fantastic wolf habitat with elk behind every tree.Nobody is disputing suitable habitat and prey IN Colorado. What I've repeatedly explained to you is that there are far fewer wolves migrating to CO, making it a lot less likely packs will establish, successfully reproduce, and expand as quickly as what we've seen in NE WA or N. Id. I'm not sure why you are trying to make this so difficult. It's pretty simple. But if you are so hell bent on calling my statements BS, please explain to me what your theory is...I'd love to hear an alternate explanation that is logical and serious. :tup:
but your so intent on obfuscating, diverting and subverting the truth you just resort to slandering me personally because I dare bring it up, like there's this big secret I might reveal.
I'm just asking questions :dunno:
Post by: KFhunter on December 24, 2019, 03:36:50 PM
We don't know how many uncolored wolves migrated there and stayed or moved on, nor do we know how many known wolves moved there but went unreported (due to poaching concerns?)
Your original premise was that they didn't move there due to a habitat barrier, clearly they did, thus the BS comments. Then you moved the goal posts and deflected. Whatever.
fact is wolves have migrated to Colorado and didn't stick for whatever reason. We know it isn't habitat within CO, and we know there wasn't a barrier preventing the move.
Now you say not enough have moved there to establish. fine, but all it takes is 1 breeding pair and we're off to the races.
You've changed your position like 3 times and deflected, as typical of your debate style.
Post by: Special T on December 24, 2019, 03:58:42 PM
Well quite frankly, when they are at "healthy" populations, you wouldn't necessarily be aware of their existence every 5 minutes so to speak. There have been wolves in the Methow Valley since probably the dawn of time. All of a sudden there was a trigger and all ________ hit the fan.
Much can be said about the Cougar population. There were plenty of cats but they werent seen much, so it left an impression with the unaware that there werent any. Now they are a dime a dozen, but in reality THATS A PROBLEM
I'm sure there are wolves in Colorado. There is alot of feed and habitat. Man.....wants to monkey around and get one standing underneath every lone pine on the hill
I belive they dont hurt each other because there is no safe resting place for them now. If they stay in the timber and rocky terrain they are subject to cats, if out in the middle of a feild they are subject to wolves. ID has been studying predatory prey relationships since 05. They know that most of the calves and fawns are taken by cats, and that cats have done much better as a result of the wolves. I think either predator by themselves wouldn't be nearly as damaging but combined they are a perfect storm.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: idahohuntr on December 24, 2019, 04:10:43 PM
We're at odds because I can't prove how many wolves have moved to Colorado, but I can prove some have moved there then died.I've not changed any position. I've just dumbed it down each time you were not able to comprehend. :hello:
We don't know how many uncolored wolves migrated there and stayed or moved on, nor do we know how many known wolves moved there but went unreported (due to poaching concerns?)
Your original premise was that they didn't move there due to a habitat barrier, clearly they did, thus the BS comments. Then you moved the goal posts and deflected. Whatever.
fact is wolves have migrated to Colorado and didn't stick for whatever reason. We know it isn't habitat within CO, and we know there wasn't a barrier preventing the move.
Now you say not enough have moved there to establish. fine, but all it takes is 1 breeding pair and we're off to the races.
You've changed your position like 3 times and deflected, as typical of your debate style.
Post by: KFhunter on December 24, 2019, 06:02:59 PM
Only personal attacks
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Post by: hunter399 on December 24, 2019, 08:26:01 PM
Post by: KFhunter on December 27, 2019, 08:56:58 AM
I don't know what kind of trapping Colorado has but maybe people just wiped them quickly. :dunno:
Well we know at least one was killed by poison, but no, I don't think "SSS" has been keeping CO free of wolves.
We know Colorado has great habitat, a ton of game and would be perfect for wolves. We know wolves have migrated to Colorado.
Yet none have taken root, maybe they need a conservation northwest chapter?
Maybe Colorado fish and game isn't as corrupt as WDFW and didn't get a .ORG plant wolves?
It's the only explanation I can think of. Idahohunter contends there just hasn't been enough wolves migrating to Colorado to make a viable population due to a habitat barrier, but all it takes is a pair..... and I'm more than skeptical that there hasn't been dozens of wolves migrating to Colorado and back out again, but because they didn't have pups inside a fence and there was no other family groups of wolves they didn't stay.
I don't think wolves disperse like they say they do, or Colorado would be loaded with them.
They didn't do it naturally, so the wolf huggers want to help them, like they did in MT, ID and WY. (and possibly WA and OR)
Post by: Humptulips on December 27, 2019, 09:32:56 AM
I don't know what kind of trapping Colorado has but maybe people just wiped them quickly. :dunno:
Colorado is a cage trapping only State in some ways worse than WA Of course they do have USDA and some permitted control of coyotes by ranchers. I would imagine some had some old stockpiles of 1080 but that must be about runned out by now.
Post by: stlusn30-06 on December 27, 2019, 02:06:51 PM
More Deer Killed By Wolves Than By Hunters in 2019
https://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/articles/deer-news/more-deer-killed-by-wolves-than-by-hunters-in-2019?fbclid=IwAR1J4ZiHDSLOlCPK6WydJOqADRtK7wGx4EYf3SWX4ovrwFs5A00Rp0i5xOk#.XfvY_dx5BLA.facebook
Not really hear to weigh in on any of this, but does anyone actually read these articles? 1.) This article takes place in Wisconsin, not WA, so who really cares? Their landscape, management of whitetail, and wolf pops, are so vastly different than WA there is little to no correlation 2.) both Wisconsin and Michigan have super high deer per square mile populations (and both have had wolves on the landscape for a long time). So while I vehemently disapprove of .Orgs preventing science based management in any situation, this isn't a good example of "how wolves will destroy our deer woods". 3.) They only used the number of deer killed by gun hunters. Which is suspect at best. Leads me to believe that if they included archery numbers their headline of "More Deer Killed By Wolves Than By Hunters in 2019" (in 4 counties) wouldn't actually hold up. 4.) Last, but not least, the title is click bait. The article says wolves killed more than 50% in just 4 out of 17 counties in the North Woods region. Not only was it in a small number of the cited counties, but it has nothing to do with total numbers in Wisconsin. It may be that there are too many wolves in those counties. It may be that those counties have less hunting pressure than do others. It may be that like the rest of the country hunter participation levels are dropping in WI. The article doesn't say.
What was your intent here? To warn the hunters of WA that if we don't pay close attention wolves will out hunt gun hunters in a couple of counties? To warn us that there are 4 counties in WI where gun hunters killed less deer than wolves? To stir up the forum's endless anti-wolf vs. still keeping an open mind ire? Please don't say "I'm just posting the info out there, and leaving it up to others to read through the details." It's stupid when people do that. I'm legitimately worried about the predator situation here in WA, but this article does jack to inform me in either direction.
Posting a click bait article that when read closely uses cherry picked data to form the narrative around the title is pretty lame. If anything it actually supports the pro-wolf agenda. In that, despite mismanagement, pro-wolfers preventing scientific management, the population being 5X the target, gun hunters (only) are still out killing wolves in all but 4 of Wisconsin's 72 counties. These kinds of articles, ensuing debates using crap data and bad readings, really only assist in misinforming the members of our forum, and reinforcing already established "thought bubble" opinions. Hopefully as these kinds of headlines pop up, we'll all use our critical thinking caps in assessing what the article actually says.
Post by: KFhunter on December 27, 2019, 02:17:13 PM
Wolves are killing far more deer than hunters are, here.
Unless you belive that each wolf only kills 20 deer anually and that there's only 126 wolves in Washington :chuckle: Then wolves only kill 10% of what hunters kill :rolleyes:
I don't buy those numbers, so save your typing in your rebuttal.
Post by: stlusn30-06 on December 27, 2019, 02:21:36 PM
The article, as it pertains to Washington, is far too generous.
Wolves are killing far more deer than hunters are, here.
Cool story bro.
Post by: KFhunter on December 27, 2019, 02:32:32 PM
I don't know how many wolves are in Washington, but I know that the 128 number that WDFW puts out is total bogus,
but do we have 1287.05 wolves? maybe not yet but I think we'll get there
1287.05 wolves x 20 (deer per wolf annually) = 25,741 deer which is the 2018 harvest report for all deer taken by hunters
Post by: stlusn30-06 on December 27, 2019, 02:48:33 PM
Unless you belive that each wolf only kills 20 deer anually and that there's only 126 wolves in Washington :chuckle: Then wolves only kill 10% of what hunters kill :rolleyes:
I don't buy those numbers, so save your typing in your rebuttal.
You're right. Let's disregard the science and say wolves actually kill a full twice as many deer a year each. So 40 deer, and that each deer on average weights 150lbs. So 6,000lbs of meat a year per wolf. A full 16lbs a day (to say nothing of all the elk they're killing too). And that there are in fact 5x as many wolves in WA than the official numbers (cuz fish & willuminati have been secretly dumping 100s & 100s of wolves). 40 kills a year and 630 wolves despite being mathematically outrageous feels right to my gut. So yes. Now that I've though it out and used my gut, it does make sense that wolves in fact killed more than 25,000 deer last year. Appreciate the thoughtful interjection to help deepen my understanding of the situation. By that I mean, I don't actually have to understand anything. I can just go with what feels right. My life just got a lot easier.
Post by: KFhunter on December 27, 2019, 02:55:37 PM
(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2016-03/27/11/enhanced/webdr11/original-13705-1459092397-8.jpg?downsize=700%3A%2A&output-quality=auto&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto&output-format=auto&downsize=360:*)
Post by: stlusn30-06 on December 27, 2019, 02:58:56 PM
No, its a sad story that has to do with the decline of hunting and the ending of rural people's way of life. Bro.
Apologies. When you wrote-
Quote
The article, as it pertains to Washington, is far too generous.
Wolves are killing far more deer than hunters are, here.
I didn't read through to the subtext and realize this was in fact a quiet interjection on the decline of hunting and the ending of rural people's way of life. At first glance it appeared to be a baseless, non-factual claim about the state of wolf populations here in WA. Yet again detracting from a reality in which we we may be able to agree on, unite around, and then politically activate over to push elected officials in the right direction. Talk about having to eat your own words. Again, apologies and I will read more closely next time to make sure I am not missing what is between the lines.
Post by: KFhunter on December 27, 2019, 03:04:25 PM
After I thought about it, yes its probably not plausible that wolves here are "killing far more deer than hunters", unless you apply it to certain geographical areas.
but I do think we'll get there eventually, and we're closer than you think (or care to admit)
Post by: idahohuntr on December 27, 2019, 03:07:27 PM
Habitat plays a large role in the distribution of wildlife. Its not as simple as two wolves making the migration, mating, producing pups and then having a population explode. Habitat and prey within Colorado is also not all just one panacea of deer and wolf friendly places. But you don't even have to go as far as Colorado...just look at Idaho - there are loads more wolves in N. Idaho than S. Idaho. How do you explain that? Is it another pod of wolf planting conspiracies in N. Idaho but they don't do it in S. Idaho...because??? Or do you think maybe habitat plays a really big role on where wolves migrate and successfully establish? ;)I don't know what kind of trapping Colorado has but maybe people just wiped them quickly. :dunno:
Well we know at least one was killed by poison, but no, I don't think "SSS" has been keeping CO free of wolves.
We know Colorado has great habitat, a ton of game and would be perfect for wolves. We know wolves have migrated to Colorado.
Yet none have taken root, maybe they need a conservation northwest chapter?
Maybe Colorado fish and game isn't as corrupt as WDFW and didn't get a .ORG plant wolves?
It's the only explanation I can think of. Idahohunter contends there just hasn't been enough wolves migrating to Colorado to make a viable population due to a habitat barrier, but all it takes is a pair..... and I'm more than skeptical that there hasn't been dozens of wolves migrating to Colorado and back out again, but because they didn't have pups inside a fence and there was no other family groups of wolves they didn't stay.
I don't think wolves disperse like they say they do, or Colorado would be loaded with them.
They didn't do it naturally, so the wolf huggers want to help them, like they did in MT, ID and WY. (and possibly WA and OR)
Post by: stlusn30-06 on December 27, 2019, 03:07:48 PM
You make a lot of assumptions in your snarky reply, such as the wolves actually eating everything they kill.
I have to be done with this now. But I agree. It was snarky of me to make the assumption that they eat everything they kill. Not sure it was quite as snarky as assuming there are 100s and 100s more wolves in WA than have been documented, and that wolves kill vast numbers more deer per year than the whole of reputable science agrees upon, but whatever. I gave the ludicrous buffer for a reason. Your info combined with mine now allows us to return the actual number of 20 deer eaten, and another 20 killed for other reasons each year to get us to your number of 25,000 deer killed.
btw despite the back and forth shots we're taking at each other, if I met you in person I'd by ya a round. In the end we're a couple dudes trying to bring info forward. Unfortunately we can't agree on what info is fact and what is not. Hopefully someday we will. Cheers KF
Lastly, didn't actually mean to get caught up in the conversation. Was just pointing out that the article that kicked off this thread was trash and irrelevant to WA hunters. Unless relevance means using anything necessary to get blood boiling over how wolves are taking over our land. It is possible wolfbait is a master troll. It is right there in his name. Maybe he just tossed this trash article and headline up knowing it would kick off this debate yet again. If so, my hat is off to you sir. Well played.
Post by: KFhunter on December 27, 2019, 03:26:47 PM
Habitat plays a large role in the distribution of wildlife. Its not as simple as two wolves making the migration, mating, producing pups and then having a population explode. Habitat and prey within Colorado is also not all just one panacea of deer and wolf friendly places. But you don't even have to go as far as Colorado...just look at Idaho - there are loads more wolves in N. Idaho than S. Idaho. How do you explain that? Is it another pod of wolf planting conspiracies in N. Idaho but they don't do it in S. Idaho...because??? Or do you think maybe habitat plays a really big role on where wolves migrate and successfully establish? ;)I don't know what kind of trapping Colorado has but maybe people just wiped them quickly. :dunno:
Well we know at least one was killed by poison, but no, I don't think "SSS" has been keeping CO free of wolves.
We know Colorado has great habitat, a ton of game and would be perfect for wolves. We know wolves have migrated to Colorado.
Yet none have taken root, maybe they need a conservation northwest chapter?
Maybe Colorado fish and game isn't as corrupt as WDFW and didn't get a .ORG plant wolves?
It's the only explanation I can think of. Idahohunter contends there just hasn't been enough wolves migrating to Colorado to make a viable population due to a habitat barrier, but all it takes is a pair..... and I'm more than skeptical that there hasn't been dozens of wolves migrating to Colorado and back out again, but because they didn't have pups inside a fence and there was no other family groups of wolves they didn't stay.
I don't think wolves disperse like they say they do, or Colorado would be loaded with them.
They didn't do it naturally, so the wolf huggers want to help them, like they did in MT, ID and WY. (and possibly WA and OR)
Of course habitat plays a role, but what I think plays a bigger role is seeding ahead of the migration.
If wolves take off dispersing and don't come across another pack of wolves they keep on truckin...migrating 1000's of miles seeking a new pack and territory having been driven from its own pack and without a mate.
These wolves have hit Colorado, there is no doubt of that, but habitat wasn't the reason for their not staying there, it was because they didn't run into other wolves.
Colorado wasn't seeded.
wolves need 3 things:
eat
hide
hump
missing any of the three things above and dispersing wolves won't stay in an area.
Post by: idahohuntr on December 27, 2019, 03:37:57 PM
I don't disagree that lacking other wolves a wolf might keep moving even if food and habitat were good - which is why poor wolf habitat between their origin and CO would make it harder for them to establish in great numbers. It also explains why wolves established pretty quickly in N.Idaho, NE WA...a lot of them could easily disperse there from their reintro sites. Read up on metapopulations, sources, sinks etc...will give you some perspective on migratory populations like wolves.Habitat plays a large role in the distribution of wildlife. Its not as simple as two wolves making the migration, mating, producing pups and then having a population explode. Habitat and prey within Colorado is also not all just one panacea of deer and wolf friendly places. But you don't even have to go as far as Colorado...just look at Idaho - there are loads more wolves in N. Idaho than S. Idaho. How do you explain that? Is it another pod of wolf planting conspiracies in N. Idaho but they don't do it in S. Idaho...because??? Or do you think maybe habitat plays a really big role on where wolves migrate and successfully establish? ;)I don't know what kind of trapping Colorado has but maybe people just wiped them quickly. :dunno:
Well we know at least one was killed by poison, but no, I don't think "SSS" has been keeping CO free of wolves.
We know Colorado has great habitat, a ton of game and would be perfect for wolves. We know wolves have migrated to Colorado.
Yet none have taken root, maybe they need a conservation northwest chapter?
Maybe Colorado fish and game isn't as corrupt as WDFW and didn't get a .ORG plant wolves?
It's the only explanation I can think of. Idahohunter contends there just hasn't been enough wolves migrating to Colorado to make a viable population due to a habitat barrier, but all it takes is a pair..... and I'm more than skeptical that there hasn't been dozens of wolves migrating to Colorado and back out again, but because they didn't have pups inside a fence and there was no other family groups of wolves they didn't stay.
I don't think wolves disperse like they say they do, or Colorado would be loaded with them.
They didn't do it naturally, so the wolf huggers want to help them, like they did in MT, ID and WY. (and possibly WA and OR)
Of course habitat plays a role, but what I think plays a bigger role is seeding ahead of the migration.
If wolves take off dispersing and don't come across another pack of wolves they keep on truckin...migrating 1000's of miles seeking a new pack and territory having been driven from its own pack and without a mate.
These wolves have hit Colorado, there is no doubt of that, but habitat wasn't the reason for their not staying there, it was because they didn't run into other wolves.
Colorado wasn't seeded.
wolves need 3 things:
eat
hide
hump
missing any of the three things above and dispersing wolves won't stay in an area.
"Seeding" has nothing to do with it unless you are trying to expand wolf transplant conspiracies to include all of N. Idaho, Western MT, and other parts of Wyoming that were not part of the original reintro sites.
Post by: KFhunter on December 27, 2019, 05:02:42 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191228/202f5137b7ec6e1ba3338860fb77de9a.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191228/cd0228d3ce4f9ab21fbd334137c3416e.jpg)
Post by: KFhunter on December 27, 2019, 05:10:07 PM
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Post by: idahohuntr on December 27, 2019, 05:22:32 PM
Wolves will go through terrible habitat dispersing, even dowtown spokane. I dont buy that there needs to contiguous unending corridors for wolves to migrate, just follow the gps tracks of dispersing wolvesNor do I. But if there are prime habitat corridors the spreading will be much faster, more successful and much easier. Poor habitat corridors the migration and spread will be much slower, less successful and much harder. This concept fits a lot of what has been observed over the decades with wolf movement.
Post by: KFhunter on December 27, 2019, 05:27:31 PM
They dont jump 300 miles and establish in the methow in a mowed lot with cameras
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Post by: idahohuntr on December 27, 2019, 05:32:30 PM
In corridors like that you find wolf pack establishment leap frogging, establishing right next to the last territory they just left.Ehh...I think you are greatly oversimplifying how animals move and establish territories. Habitat, prey, competition, disturbance all play a role and its probably much more complex than simple leap frogging in today's world. That said, if all else is equal, yes I would expect territories to establish in a general sequence.
They dont jump 300 miles and establish in the methow in a mowed lot with cameras
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Post by: ne kid on December 27, 2019, 05:39:45 PM