More Deer Killed By Wolves Than By Hunters in 2019

[KFhunter]

I don't have an explanation, I asked you, the HW wolf "expert" 

Or you could just keep being nasty to other HW'rs 

[idahohuntr]

I don't have an explanation, I asked you, the HW wolf "expert" 

Or you could just keep being nasty to other HW'rs 

So you don't have an explanation, but you post "BS" when I give you a very logical one? Classic.

[KFhunter]

You're argument was there is a habitat/prey barrier preventing wolves from migrating to Colorado.   I disproved that by citing verified examples of wolves doing just that, and those were just wolves we knew about because they were killed and made a big deal of.   

I don't buy that theory.



next?

[Platensek-po]

You're argument was there is a habitat/prey barrier preventing wolves from migrating to Colorado.   I disproved that by citing verified examples of wolves doing just that, and those were just wolves we knew about because they were killed and made a big deal of.   

I don't buy that theory.



next?

Heading east out of Yellowstone in comparison to north and west is waaay different. I lived in Jackson hole and drove from there to Denver multiple times. The habitat in eastern Wyoming does not seem as suitable for wolves as southern Montana or eastern Idaho. If I was a wolf I wouldn’t want to go into eastern Wyoming either. I can see how a wolf could wander over to Colorado but to have packs expanding through eastern Wyoming does not make sense. Just my opinion though as I have no actual facts to back any of it up. I also know that wolves from Canada have been found in Montana as well so not sure why the wolves would have to come from Yellowstone??

[KFhunter]

They don't have to come from Yellowstone,  there's been wolves from Montana coming down to Colorado.   YNP was the most logical given that it would take time to populate a state and going back 10 years or more,  YNP held the most dispersing wolves. 

We know that wolves did make it to Colorado,  I agree heading north seems more likely habitat wise but wolves don't always make since in their migrations.   


Of all the wolves that landed in Colorado, my question is why didn't they take root?   

[Platensek-po]

Gotya. I honestly have no idea. I’m not even sure they haven’t. Could be a pack or 2 running around and no one acknowledges it yet. Would be curious to know if any biologists in CO have weighed in on that. Also the one that was found from YNP was poisoned? So it’s possible that they are getting less wolves overall and the ones that do try to stay get killed in one way or another. TBH I’m not sure anyone know other than the wolves

[idahohuntr]

You're argument was there is a habitat/prey barrier preventing wolves from migrating to Colorado.   I disproved that by citing verified examples of wolves doing just that, and those were just wolves we knew about because they were killed and made a big deal of.   

I don't buy that theory.



next?

I never said any such thing, quite an imagination you've got there..of course wolves can and do move into CO.  I was addressing why its been relatively few and slower than what we saw in N. Idaho and NE WA.  Wolves can cover a lot of ground - it would be foolish for anyone to suggest they can't migrate somewhere.

As per your question about why the ones that did make it to CO but haven't "taken hold"..simple, habitat and numbers.  Again, look at Idaho for an even closer example...not many wolves in S. Idaho even though its really close to both the Idaho release site and YNP site...and lots of elk and mule deer.  Why is N. Idaho crawling with wolves but not all of S. Idaho???  Why are there not wolves crawling all over Eastern Mt, Eastern WY, like they have in the W/NW parts of those states? 

Hmmm...because wolves don't distribute evenly all over the landscape...and if there are very few migrating through relatively poor wolf habitat to get to CO, its going to be a lot longer/harder for them to get established.

Again, this is pretty simple stuff and it seems many folks that have a breadth of western hunting experience get it.  If you haven't spent much time outside of NE Wa it might not be as obvious 

[KFhunter]

Colorado has excellent wolf habitat, just ask any one of your precious groups like DOW, Colorado Wolf and Wildlife Center, the list goes on and on and on ...take your pick, any wolf ORG group will gladly inform you how Colorado has excellent wolf habitat and how they'd thrive there.  and we know that they have indeed been there, yet didn't take root dispite this fantastic wolf habitat with elk behind every tree. 

but your so intent on obfuscating, diverting and subverting the truth you just resort to slandering me personally because I dare bring it up, like there's this big secret I might reveal. 

I'm just asking questions 

[idahohuntr]

Colorado has excellent wolf habitat, just ask any one of your precious groups like DOW, Colorado Wolf and Wildlife Center, the list goes on and on and on ...take your pick, any wolf ORG group will gladly inform you how Colorado has excellent wolf habitat and how they'd thrive there.  and we know that they have indeed been there, yet didn't take root dispite this fantastic wolf habitat with elk behind every tree. 

but your so intent on obfuscating, diverting and subverting the truth you just resort to slandering me personally because I dare bring it up, like there's this big secret I might reveal. 

I'm just asking questions 

Nobody is disputing suitable habitat and prey IN Colorado.  What I've repeatedly explained to you is that there are far fewer wolves migrating to CO, making it a lot less likely packs will establish, successfully reproduce, and expand as quickly as what we've seen in NE WA or N. Id. I'm not sure why you are trying to make this so difficult.  It's pretty simple.  But if you are so hell bent on calling my statements BS, please explain to me what your theory is...I'd love to hear an alternate explanation that is logical and serious.   
 

[KFhunter]

We're at odds because I can't prove how many wolves have moved to Colorado,  but I can prove some have moved there then died.   

We don't know how many uncolored wolves migrated there and stayed or moved on, nor do we know how many known wolves moved there but went unreported  (due to poaching concerns?) 

Your original premise was that they didn't move there due to a habitat barrier, clearly they did, thus the BS comments.  Then you moved the goal posts and deflected.   Whatever. 


fact is wolves have migrated to Colorado and didn't stick for whatever reason.  We know it isn't habitat within CO,  and we know there wasn't a barrier preventing the move.   

Now you say not enough have moved there to establish.  fine,  but all it takes is 1 breeding pair and we're off to the races. 

You've changed your position like 3 times and deflected,  as typical of your debate style. 

[Special T]

Well quite frankly, when they are at "healthy" populations, you wouldn't necessarily be aware of their existence every 5 minutes so to speak.  There have been wolves in the Methow Valley since probably the dawn of time.   All of a sudden there was a trigger and all ________ hit the fan.   

Much can be said about the Cougar population.   There were plenty of cats but they werent seen much, so it left an impression with the unaware that there werent any.   Now they are a dime a dozen, but in reality THATS A PROBLEM


I'm sure there are wolves in Colorado.   There is alot of feed and habitat.   Man.....wants to monkey around and get one standing underneath every lone pine on the hill

I belive they dont hurt each other because there is no safe resting place for them now.  If they stay in the timber and rocky terrain they are subject to cats, if out in the middle of a feild they are subject to wolves. ID has been studying predatory prey relationships since 05. They know that most of the calves and fawns are taken by cats, and that cats have done much better as a result of the wolves.  I think either predator by themselves wouldn't be nearly as damaging but combined they are a perfect storm.

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[idahohuntr]

We're at odds because I can't prove how many wolves have moved to Colorado,  but I can prove some have moved there then died.   

We don't know how many uncolored wolves migrated there and stayed or moved on, nor do we know how many known wolves moved there but went unreported  (due to poaching concerns?) 

Your original premise was that they didn't move there due to a habitat barrier, clearly they did, thus the BS comments.  Then you moved the goal posts and deflected.   Whatever. 


fact is wolves have migrated to Colorado and didn't stick for whatever reason.  We know it isn't habitat within CO,  and we know there wasn't a barrier preventing the move.   

Now you say not enough have moved there to establish.  fine,  but all it takes is 1 breeding pair and we're off to the races. 

You've changed your position like 3 times and deflected,  as typical of your debate style.

I've not changed any position.  I've just dumbed it down each time you were not able to comprehend. 

[KFhunter]

I comprehend just fine, you just have no valid  arguments

Only personal attacks

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[hunter399]

I don't know what kind of trapping Colorado has but maybe people just wiped them quickly.

[KFhunter]

I don't know what kind of trapping Colorado has but maybe people just wiped them quickly.

Well we know at least one was killed by poison, but no, I don't think "SSS" has been keeping CO free of wolves.

We know Colorado has great habitat, a ton of game and would be perfect for wolves.   We know wolves have migrated to Colorado.

Yet none have taken root,  maybe they need a conservation northwest chapter?   
Maybe Colorado fish and game isn't as corrupt as WDFW and didn't get a .ORG plant wolves? 


It's the only explanation I can think of.  Idahohunter contends there just hasn't been enough wolves migrating to Colorado to make a viable population due to a habitat barrier, but all it takes is a pair..... and I'm more than skeptical that there hasn't been dozens of wolves migrating to Colorado and back out again, but because they didn't have pups inside a fence and there was no other family groups of wolves they didn't stay. 


I don't think wolves disperse like they say they do, or Colorado would be loaded with them. 

They didn't do it naturally, so the wolf huggers want to help them, like they did in MT, ID and WY.   (and possibly WA and OR)