Post by: KFhunter on December 24, 2019, 01:11:05 PM
clarification:
Any government agency that either did it directly -or- knew about it yet allowed it to happen
Post by: KFhunter on December 24, 2019, 01:27:10 PM
comment if you like, or don't. I'm only interested in poll #'s
Post by: Special T on December 24, 2019, 01:30:38 PM
Post by: Dan-o on December 24, 2019, 01:32:22 PM
It will be an interesting poll.
I'm also interested in what people think.
(and you'll need some responses to keep it from slipping into oblivion)
MY OPINION: Wolves were not transplanted here...... because I simply don't think the gov't is smart enough to do it secretly.
Post by: KFhunter on December 24, 2019, 01:36:30 PM
What does down low mean? The WDFW or USFS did it on the sly with no paperwork? OR did some kind of ORG like Wolf Hollow or some other similar group do it? OR all/any of the above?
Thanks for prompting me to clarify.
Any government agency that either did it directly -or- knew about it yet allowed it to happen and did not prosecute "some kind of ORG like Wolf Hollow or other similar group"
I already know individuals raised wolf dogs and turned them loose, but without government knowledge or complicity, I'm not interested in that.
Post by: KFhunter on December 24, 2019, 01:45:36 PM
Thanks.
It will be an interesting poll.
I'm also interested in what people think.
(and you'll need some responses to keep it from slipping into oblivion)
MY OPINION: Wolves were not transplanted here...... because I simply don't think the gov't is smart enough to do it secretly.
Thanks, I'm just looking for a snapshot of opinions as it sits right now. Not looking for a compelling debate that might change votes one way or the other, so I didn't make the poll visible either just in case someone might have a tendency to follow the popular opinion.
Post by: buckfvr on December 24, 2019, 01:47:28 PM
Post by: Special T on December 24, 2019, 01:50:00 PM
I voted yes because I believe there are a few WDFW employees that are extremely cozy with some Anti Hunting groups.
Post by: Curly on December 24, 2019, 01:54:03 PM
Post by: Platensek-po on December 24, 2019, 01:57:32 PM
Post by: highside74 on December 24, 2019, 02:01:09 PM
Post by: Platensek-po on December 24, 2019, 02:06:25 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on December 24, 2019, 02:21:18 PM
So the same people who can’t hide the fact they are getting lap dances at private meetings arranged to capture, transport and release an animal on the ESA list without anyone knowing or having a single whistle blower?? The president can’t even make a phone call without it going public yet the incompetent WDFW can cover up releasing wolves onto the landscape?? All to spite hunters??? Just curious if someone has anything even bordering on factual information that WDFW transported and released wolves or was aware of it happening.:chuckle: You've pretty much nailed it - and no, not one piece of credible evidence has ever surfaced. Not one!
As I've stated previously, hunters should reject these conspiracy theories (gov agencies secretly planting wolves in WA) because it makes us collectively look stupid and absurd.
Post by: Curly on December 24, 2019, 02:27:09 PM
Post by: Bango skank on December 24, 2019, 02:41:52 PM
Flip side of the coin: if greenie whackos or government spooks were releasing them here years ago, why havent they released them in colorado?
Post by: trophyhunt on December 24, 2019, 02:46:42 PM
Post by: jstone on December 24, 2019, 02:51:17 PM
This state is cooked
Post by: Platensek-po on December 24, 2019, 02:56:12 PM
Thanks.
It will be an interesting poll.
I'm also interested in what people think.
(and you'll need some responses to keep it from slipping into oblivion)
MY OPINION: Wolves were not transplanted here...... because I simply don't think the gov't is smart enough to do it secretly.
Thanks, I'm just looking for a snapshot of opinions as it sits right now. Not looking for a compelling debate that might change votes one way or the other, so I didn't make the poll visible either just in case someone might have a tendency to follow the popular opinion.
Will the final tally be visible?? I am interested in seeing the results as well.
Post by: Bango skank on December 24, 2019, 02:58:20 PM
If I was to put money on it, I’d say yes, they were planted! People need to kill these predators and not think of it as poaching!!
Well you got that part right anyway
Post by: Special T on December 24, 2019, 03:00:01 PM
Post by: greenhead_killer on December 24, 2019, 03:16:47 PM
Post by: Platensek-po on December 24, 2019, 03:25:10 PM
Post by: bobcat on December 24, 2019, 03:29:01 PM
Post by: KFhunter on December 24, 2019, 03:30:18 PM
Post by: Special T on December 24, 2019, 03:34:56 PM
The wolves only had to walk across the Canadian border. No reason to think they needed any help to get into Washington.So here is the rub. If they were so inclined to come from just across the border, why did the migrate from the Eastern border in a westerly fashion? Especially since they could have done so down the cascades so easily?
The whole thing stinks which is why I'll bet there are a lot of people who belive the department or feds had a hand in it.
Post by: Bluemoon on December 24, 2019, 03:48:12 PM
In the eighty's I would watch them play in Medicine Valley. Some on here will know where that is. In the nineties I hunted quite a bit in B.C.. On the North side of this man made line we could shoot them with the proper tags. On the South side of this man made line if you shot one it was a Federal Offense. They the wolves did not know that line existed.
So yes they were here. However, when they started to appear with necklaces on them they had to of had some help fastening the clasps.🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
Post by: Platensek-po on December 24, 2019, 03:49:09 PM
I won't make ya'll wait too long then I'll open up the results to those that have voted, or I can now if people keep the results under their hats?
Cool thanks!! I don’t care to see anything but the final results.
Post by: Jpmiller on December 24, 2019, 03:50:08 PM
Post by: buckfvr on December 24, 2019, 04:03:16 PM
Did our state not allow people from other states including children have a voice in whether or not we want wolves????? The entire wolf debacle is a complete scam/scham that was rammed right down our throats to our balls and you guys (some of you) cant call a spade a spade......wtfu.
Post by: Platensek-po on December 24, 2019, 04:18:51 PM
Post by: fishngamereaper on December 24, 2019, 04:37:10 PM
Have wolves naturally moved into Washington..yes documented 20-30 years ago... disputed by wdfw.
Has the state had a part in bringing wolves to Washington. Absolutely.
And before you ask I don't have to and I won't out my sources on a public forum. I don't need to prove I know what I know...
Post by: Ironhead on December 24, 2019, 04:37:40 PM
Post by: Platensek-po on December 24, 2019, 04:56:57 PM
I'm curious those that are defending wdfw. How long have you lived in the state...
Have wolves naturally moved into Washington..yes documented 20-30 years ago... disputed by wdfw.
Has the state had a part in bringing wolves to Washington. Absolutely.
And before you ask I don't have to and I won't out my sources on a public forum. I don't need to prove I know what I know...
I’ve lived in Washington most of my life. I’m not defending him WDFW if anything I am saying they are too incompetent to pull what you are saying. You are the one making them out to be masterminds of deception. By the way saying you won’t post proof is the same as not having any.
Post by: buckfvr on December 24, 2019, 04:58:29 PM
Any evidence at all buckfvr?? Any??? Other than feelings? You honestly think they can cover that up?? Not one whistle blower or retired WDFW member has said anything about it. They have been talking openly about reestabliahing grizz in the cascades. Why haven’t these groups planted wolves in every state in the west? Again the president can’t even hide a phone call but the state can hide the transportation of an endangered species?? If you have ANY even somewhat credible evidence please present it. Otherwise I think people are just upset about the wolves being back and want to blame someone desperately for that. I do agree that they have butchered wolf management but I have yet to see or hear anything about how a coverup this big could be possible or how it was covered up.
Theres been enough evidence over the years to suggest complicity by different agencies. The older you get, the more you hear, the wiser you become. Its a complicated issue shrouded in dishonesty at every turn.
Post by: hunter399 on December 24, 2019, 05:08:18 PM
Post by: fishngamereaper on December 24, 2019, 05:18:34 PM
I'm curious those that are defending wdfw. How long have you lived in the state...
Have wolves naturally moved into Washington..yes documented 20-30 years ago... disputed by wdfw.
Has the state had a part in bringing wolves to Washington. Absolutely.
And before you ask I don't have to and I won't out my sources on a public forum. I don't need to prove I know what I know...
I’ve lived in Washington most of my life. I’m not defending him WDFW if anything I am saying they are too incompetent to pull what you are saying. You are the one making them out to be masterminds of deception. By the way saying you won’t post proof is the same as not having any.
Ok buddy...your right..you feel better now.
It's not just wdfw..open your mind up a little.
And not saying I won't post proof has nothing to do with what I know. This is a hunting / personal opinion forum. I don't owe you or anyone else the knowledge I have. Regardless of what I or anyone else post's their knowledge, opinion, speculation etc will be attacked by those that think they know better. Some people don't like to be wrong...
Happy holidays to you ..I'm out, it's Christmas Eve.
Post by: MtnMuley on December 24, 2019, 05:21:43 PM
Contrary to the beliefs of some on here, it's not rocket science to leg hold trap wolves in concentrated areas and sedate them with readily available drugs (to many people) and cage and move them to wherever one wants. It's seriously not that difficult for the right people. To think CN isn't capable of this or wouldn't support this kind of action is laughable.
My overall view on the subject: Not all the wolves in WA came in on their own.
Post by: Platensek-po on December 24, 2019, 05:23:11 PM
Post by: hunter399 on December 24, 2019, 05:28:18 PM
https://books.google.com/books?id=Ph9zAhvl0J0C&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=wolves+%22transplant%22+to+washington+state&source=bl&ots=yHALwl-idl&sig=ACfU3U3L6-dyzspDL2Bnxjeagi0Cwh15nQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwidh_LP0M_mAhXOCTQIHYxSBq0Q6AEwD3oECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=wolves%20%22transplant%22%20to%20washington%20state&f=false
Post by: Platensek-po on December 24, 2019, 05:30:30 PM
I'm curious those that are defending wdfw. How long have you lived in the state...
Have wolves naturally moved into Washington..yes documented 20-30 years ago... disputed by wdfw.
Has the state had a part in bringing wolves to Washington. Absolutely.
And before you ask I don't have to and I won't out my sources on a public forum. I don't need to prove I know what I know...
I’ve lived in Washington most of my life. I’m not defending him WDFW if anything I am saying they are too incompetent to pull what you are saying. You are the one making them out to be masterminds of deception. By the way saying you won’t post proof is the same as not having any.
Ok buddy...your right..you feel better now.
It's not just wdfw..open your mind up a little.
And not saying I won't post proof has nothing to do with what I know. This is a hunting / personal opinion forum. I don't owe you or anyone else the knowledge I have. Regardless of what I or anyone else post's their knowledge, opinion, speculation etc will be attacked by those that think they know better. Some people don't like to be wrong...
Happy holidays to you ..I'm out, it's Christmas Eve.
I honestly don’t feel better and if you or anyone you know has proof and can expose this then please please do! But saying I have proof but I won’t share or expose anything seems either fake or it’s just morally wrong. Why you would want to protect the people you said did this makes no sense. Opinion and speculation is all that’s been posted so far. That said I also hope you and your family have a wonderful Christmas. Same to all on this site!!!
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 24, 2019, 05:30:37 PM
Post by: RB on December 24, 2019, 05:38:47 PM
The wolves only had to walk across the Canadian border. No reason to think they needed any help to get into Washington.
:yeah:
Post by: KFhunter on December 24, 2019, 05:53:21 PM
Here's a artical that they had a clue they where here as far back as 1991.Right around that time, maybe a couple years earlier I was a wild kid running around all over the mountians, getting shot at for running through pot grows a few times, I worked for several ranches and chased range cows all over, property lines didnt matter it was range cattle.....anyways;
https://books.google.com/books?id=Ph9zAhvl0J0C&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=wolves+%22transplant%22+to+washington+state&source=bl&ots=yHALwl-idl&sig=ACfU3U3L6-dyzspDL2Bnxjeagi0Cwh15nQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwidh_LP0M_mAhXOCTQIHYxSBq0Q6AEwD3oECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=wolves%20%22transplant%22%20to%20washington%20state&f=false
I came across a pen full of wolves, heard em howling. They got released not long after and everyone was saying shoot em if ya can.
I dont know if they established. Nor would I say WDFW was complicit, it was in an area the government wasn't invited.
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Post by: jrebel on December 24, 2019, 05:56:40 PM
The wolves only had to walk across the Canadian border. No reason to think they needed any help to get into Washington.
:yeah:
Same could be said for the Grizzly Bears but the state still wants to introduce them into our ecosystem. I have no doubt some wolves have migrated across the border....but breading pears popping up in the last 10 years didn't happen from a mass migration. If that were the case....why were they not as prevalent 20 years ago?
Post by: KFhunter on December 24, 2019, 05:59:54 PM
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Post by: jrebel on December 24, 2019, 06:05:11 PM
20 years ago when we had double, triple or more deer
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:yeah:
Funny how there is a correlation
Post by: Curly on December 24, 2019, 06:08:44 PM
Here's a artical that they had a clue they where here as far back as 1991.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Ph9zAhvl0J0C&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=wolves+%22transplant%22+to+washington+state&source=bl&ots=yHALwl-idl&sig=ACfU3U3L6-dyzspDL2Bnxjeagi0Cwh15nQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwidh_LP0M_mAhXOCTQIHYxSBq0Q6AEwD3oECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=wolves%20%22transplant%22%20to%20washington%20state&f=false
The spring of 1991 was the year I saw wolves up around Lake Wenatchee. There were signs up there warning people about wolves. If I remember right, the signs were from wdfw.
Post by: Platensek-po on December 24, 2019, 06:11:58 PM
The wolves only had to walk across the Canadian border. No reason to think they needed any help to get into Washington.
:yeah:
Same could be said for the Grizzly Bears but the state still wants to introduce them into our ecosystem. I have no doubt some wolves have migrated across the border....but breading pears popping up in the last 10 years didn't happen from a mass migration. If that were the case....why were they not as prevalent 20 years ago?
I’m not sure and those are good questions. But it’s also possible that WDFW just didn’t care as much about wolves then as it has for the last 10-15yrs. So maybe here were breading pairs in WA and we just didn’t know or didn’t care as much. Maybe something else happened to cause them to start coming down more. (Less game in BC or population growth causing more wolves to leave looking to expand. Not saying that any of those are the reason just throwing out ideas. Also let’s remember that correlation is not causation.
Post by: Platensek-po on December 24, 2019, 06:21:13 PM
Here's a artical that they had a clue they where here as far back as 1991.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Ph9zAhvl0J0C&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=wolves+%22transplant%22+to+washington+state&source=bl&ots=yHALwl-idl&sig=ACfU3U3L6-dyzspDL2Bnxjeagi0Cwh15nQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwidh_LP0M_mAhXOCTQIHYxSBq0Q6AEwD3oECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=wolves%20%22transplant%22%20to%20washington%20state&f=false
The spring of 1991 was the year I saw wolves up around Lake Wenatchee. There were signs up there warning people about wolves. If I remember right, the signs were from wdfw.
According to that text they had discover 2 breeding pairs in the North cascades national park and were going to form the committees to manage them. (or mismanage depending on how you want to look at it) Thats 30 years of WDFW managing for population growth of that species. Does that mean they planted those breeding pairs there? I highly doubt it considering it included 5 federal and state agencies. No one leaked any info on that transplant? So if deer populations were high and wolf population numbers were high in BC wouldn't it make sense they would start to move down here 30 years ago? Again I DONT KNOW. Unless someone posts some kind of evidence suggesting the planting of wolves or the knowledge thereof by WDFW its going to be hard to believe they did it without just going off of random peoples assertions on a public forum.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 24, 2019, 06:31:35 PM
The Greater Yellowstone area had something like 5x the population of elk before introduction. I think after the herd started dropping, the wolf packs were moving out to areas with elk. Which is why they moved to certain parts of Idaho and Montana. I think the timing correlation tends to be about when the elk herds were dropping in Idaho that the wolf packs started moving more towards Washington (the time frame about 20 years ago).20 years ago when we had double, triple or more deer
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:yeah:
Funny how there is a correlation
Post by: MtnMuley on December 24, 2019, 06:36:02 PM
Could you provide some of that evidence?? Otherwise it sounds like everyone believes what they heard from a cousins girlfriends kid brother. Also to the guy who has proof and is withholding it to protect his sources. You do realize the only thing you are protecting is the WDFW right? I mean you have solid sources and info on a huge environmental coverup but no one will come out and expose it??? Either it’s false or they are morally bankrupt. So far we are three pages in and no one has been able to provide anything. I’m seriously open to the idea that WDFW managed the populations the way they did on purpose to expand wolf populations and other protect them. But shipping them in and installing wolf packs in secret??? Seems pretty far fetched
Are you referring to me? Or the comment above mine?
Post by: Cougartail on December 24, 2019, 06:36:19 PM
So the argument is, if wolves naturally dispersed to washington, then why didnt they disperse to colorado?
Flip side of the coin: if greenie whackos or government spooks were releasing them here years ago, why havent they released them in colorado?
Heavy logging in Southern BC and Alberta along with other human activities pushed them south and north. Trapping and hunting of wolves is much more limited in the southern Canadian regions compared to 40 years ago.
Post by: Curly on December 24, 2019, 06:39:45 PM
Wolves probably were never completely absent from Washington. The numbers started increasing enough to notice 30 years ago. Those wolves were migrating down from BC. Then after wolves were released in Yellowstone in 1995, those wolves started showing up in WA too a short time later. It sucks. Blame the United states Congress for the release and spread of wolves.
https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/upload/wolfrep95-96.pdf
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 24, 2019, 06:43:16 PM
Makes sense. All about the same time logging fell here (the spotted owl shutdowns/Northwest Forest Plan/Japanese economy slowdown) and when the logging shifted to BC.So the argument is, if wolves naturally dispersed to washington, then why didnt they disperse to colorado?
Flip side of the coin: if greenie whackos or government spooks were releasing them here years ago, why havent they released them in colorado?
Heavy logging in Southern BC and Alberta along with other human activities pushed them south and north. Trapping and hunting of wolves is much more limited in the southern Canadian regions compared to 40 years ago.
Post by: MtnMuley on December 24, 2019, 06:43:30 PM
Wolves probably were never completely absent from Washington. The numbers started increasing enough to notice 30 years ago. Those wolves were migrating down from BC. Then after wolves were released in Yellowstone in 1995, those wolves started showing up in WA too a short time later. It sucks. Blame the United states Congress for the release and spread of wolves.
https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/upload/wolfrep95-96.pdf
You're exactly right, and I totally agree. Personally, I believe they had "help" getting to the numbers we have now. :twocents:
Post by: KFhunter on December 24, 2019, 07:10:26 PM
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Post by: wolfbait on December 24, 2019, 09:37:18 PM
https://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2010/06/08/in-washington-feds-opt-for-wolf-introduction-over-recovery/
WDFW were doing the wolf/grizzly push in the 80’s and 90’s, but then all the funds went to the illegal wolf introduction into WY, MT and Idaho, the three hardest states to push wolves on once the truth was known about what wolves really do. Now with WDFW’s help wolves have infested WA, and once agin they want to introduce the grizzlies. Look at the Wolf plan WDFW gave us etc. and then tell me agin how honest they have been…
At some point WDFW will be exposed publicly for releasing wolves in WA, but they will never be held accountable. :twocents:
Post by: hughjorgan on December 24, 2019, 10:32:18 PM
The wolves only had to walk across the Canadian border. No reason to think they needed any help to get into Washington.
:yeah:
Same could be said for the grizzly bear, right? But we aren’t seeing grizzly bears showing up in places they haven’t been seen in decades.
I wouldn’t doubt that some organization is helping them repopulate areas.
Why is there poor calf recruitment in the Yakima elk herd? Something causing them more stress? Like a new apex predator?
Post by: Dan-o on December 24, 2019, 11:03:13 PM
The wolves only had to walk across the Canadian border. No reason to think they needed any help to get into Washington.
:yeah:
Same could be said for the grizzly bear, right? But we aren’t seeing grizzly bears showing up in places they haven’t been seen in decades.
I wouldn’t doubt that some organization is helping them repopulate areas.
Why is there poor calf recruitment in the Yakima elk herd? Something causing them more stress? Like a new apex predator?
There are hundreds of trail cams watching Yakima elk.... but no wolf pics coming out of there...?
Post by: wolfbait on December 25, 2019, 09:42:48 AM
Post by: wolfbait on December 25, 2019, 09:44:44 AM
Post by: wolfbait on December 25, 2019, 09:45:46 AM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on December 25, 2019, 10:02:44 AM
Post by: Griiz on December 25, 2019, 10:08:23 AM
Post by: Special T on December 25, 2019, 10:25:37 AM
When you read articles like this, it makes you wonder how anyone can legally be prosecuted for harvesting wolves that aren’t even native to this region.Who wants to be the test case? I think the closest case was the guy that whacked one in Whitman county and got a slap on the wrist.
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Post by: Griiz on December 25, 2019, 10:39:32 AM
When you read articles like this, it makes you wonder how anyone can legally be prosecuted for harvesting wolves that aren’t even native to this region.Who wants to be the test case? I think the closest case was the guy that whacked one in Whitman county and got a slap on the wrist.
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The test case needs to be rich so they can afford the best attorneys
Post by: hunter399 on December 25, 2019, 10:46:08 AM
http://www.buffalogirlsproductions.com/idahonatives/nez/wolf.html
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on December 25, 2019, 11:32:39 AM
I dont think your poll covers it all. It should not be one or the other it should also have both of the above.
In the eighty's I would watch them play in Medicine Valley. Some on here will know where that is. In the nineties I hunted quite a bit in B.C.. On the North side of this man made line we could shoot them with the proper tags. On the South side of this man made line if you shot one it was a Federal Offense. They the wolves did not know that line existed.
So yes they were here. However, when they started to appear with necklaces on them they had to of had some help fastening the clasps.🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
You don't think animals know where they are safe? Why do they pile up in areas where hunting isn't allowed then?
Post by: jackelope on December 25, 2019, 12:08:49 PM
The wolves only had to walk across the Canadian border. No reason to think they needed any help to get into Washington.So here is the rub. If they were so inclined to come from just across the border, why did the migrate from the Eastern border in a westerly fashion? Especially since they could have done so down the cascades so easily?
The whole thing stinks which is why I'll bet there are a lot of people who belive the department or feds had a hand in it.
They did come down southerly via the cascades.
Post by: msg on December 25, 2019, 04:43:47 PM
Post by: hughjorgan on December 25, 2019, 05:28:37 PM
The wolves only had to walk across the Canadian border. No reason to think they needed any help to get into Washington.
:yeah:
Same could be said for the grizzly bear, right? But we aren’t seeing grizzly bears showing up in places they haven’t been seen in decades.
I wouldn’t doubt that some organization is helping them repopulate areas.
Why is there poor calf recruitment in the Yakima elk herd? Something causing them more stress? Like a new apex predator?
There are hundreds of trail cams watching Yakima elk.... but no wolf pics coming out of there...?
I’ve been running cameras in the Yakima area for over a decade and I rarely get bears on camera and have never had a cougar. But I know they are there, people have seen them or I’ve seen tracks.
I’ve talked to plenty of people that have seen them or heard them and I’ve personally seen some big canine tracks.
Post by: Dan-o on December 25, 2019, 05:33:35 PM
Every single year that I've hung cameras, I have gotten bear and cougar. Coyotes, raccoon, turkeys, etc.
Never awolf, but I keep looking. ,
Post by: Dan-o on December 25, 2019, 05:37:39 PM
I was told 10 years ago that there was wolves on St Helens. Then had a friend who was a tree faller for Weyerhauser twice watch wolves feed on elk carcasses above timberline on the northwest side. A neighbor, that happens to be a state patrolman reported seeing one on KM Mountain.That is halfway to the beach from Longview. The warden mentioned that is something we don't talk about. This was also several years ago. Now there is talk of introducing wolves to the Mudflow and the Olympic Peninsula. There is zero credibility left with our game department. Our military operates all over the world without the official US endorsement. I believe our game dept. is capable of that also. No proof, just my opinion!
St Helns has lots of roads, Tons of hikers and loads of trail cams. I just dont knkw how the wolves avoid detection. :dunno:
Where are you hearing this talk of introducing wolves into the Methiw and Peninsula???
I'd like to know so I can show up and voice my opposition.
Post by: greenhead_killer on December 25, 2019, 05:52:04 PM
In the teanaway the last 5/6 years and had never seen one. This year while deer hunting, same area my cams are in, was the first time I’d ever heard them howl. They were in the back of the drainage I was hunting.
Post by: Dan-o on December 25, 2019, 06:57:39 PM
It’s not hard for wolves to avoid detection. I’ve been getting them on cam
In the teanaway the last 5/6 years and had never seen one. This year while deer hunting, same area my cams are in, was the first time I’d ever heard them howl. They were in the back of the drainage I was hunting.
I haven't hung cameras in the Teanaway, but ihunted deer there a few years back. One drainage was absolutely covered in wolf tracks.
I'd never hunted among wolf tracks that thick.
But I have seen several sets of wolf pics off Teanaway trail cams.
I've never seen tracks or gotten them on cams in the Yakima. I'm not saying theyre not there. I just haven't seen sign. Wouldn't shock me at all if there were some.
Post by: Pinetar on December 25, 2019, 07:38:35 PM
Post by: greenhead_killer on December 25, 2019, 08:45:10 PM
Post by: jackelope on December 25, 2019, 09:08:16 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 25, 2019, 09:14:44 PM
Post by: Dan-o on December 25, 2019, 10:19:03 PM
I had cameras in the Blues foothills. Used to post lots of photos on the forum here. I got thousands of photos, never a wolf. In 2013 a friend killed a bull there that he watched get run out of the timber by a group of 3(if I remember correctly) wolves. This was less than a mile from 2 of my cameras. I don’t think they’re easy to get on cameras.
Hey Josh,
Any theories on why you think they are hard to get on trail cam?
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 26, 2019, 07:09:55 AM
Post by: kentrek on December 26, 2019, 08:16:56 AM
With that said I have seen zero...absolutely zero wolf evidence around st Helens..there are hundreds of camera traps targeting predators up there
We will know when they show up...no idea why they haven't since they are just a hop skip away..will be interesting when they do
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 26, 2019, 08:19:53 AM
Post by: boneaddict on December 26, 2019, 08:33:31 AM
I saw my first Washington wolf pack in about 82. Male, female and pups
There was a wolfpack in Libby Creek almost two decades before they finally admitted it. Todd and I know they knew about it because we were in the same conference room where they told us to keep our mouths shut about it and to deny it if asked. THey were actually trying to teach us that....let that sink in. If you think they closed Alta for deer hunting and coyote hunting for several years because of deer management, you should go back to your cubicle.
Wolves have been here since the dawn of time, why now the problem?
and remind me again when they discovered our first wolfpack?
Post by: boneaddict on December 26, 2019, 08:43:07 AM
They're here! and in numbers you aren't going to do anything about EVEN IF you hunted them 24/7/365.
The only thing that is going to limit them is the lack of food. Just like coyotes!
and what do you think that means to your hunting? CHECK
and if there is no need for hunting, why do you need guns? Checkmate
Post by: h20hunter on December 26, 2019, 08:43:57 AM
Post by: msg on December 26, 2019, 09:08:28 AM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on December 26, 2019, 09:20:31 AM
Page 3
Hmmmmm This Richard M Mitchell Ph. D. ??
https://www.gao.gov/assets/110/104327.pdf
Post by: bearpaw on December 26, 2019, 09:20:56 AM
So, to all of you guys that think this is from just "spreading".....where were all the wolves from 1950- 2010 and what caused the population explosion we have today.
I saw my first Washington wolf pack in about 82. Male, female and pups
There was a wolfpack in Libby Creek almost two decades before they finally admitted it. Todd and I know they knew about it because we were in the same conference room where they told us to keep our mouths shut about it and to deny it if asked. THey were actually trying to teach us that....let that sink in. If you think they closed Alta for deer hunting and coyote hunting for several years because of deer management, you should go back to your cubicle.
Wolves have been here since the dawn of time, why now the problem?
and remind me again when they discovered our first wolfpack?
I was at the WDFW meeting years ago when the game commission passed the rule to stop coyote hunting in parts of the Okanogan to protect the wolves that the Dept testified were in those areas. So make no mistake, WDFW knew there were wolves long before the claimed first "Lookout Pack" was widely publicized.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 26, 2019, 09:25:20 AM
So, to all of you guys that think this is from just "spreading".....where were all the wolves from 1950- 2010 and what caused the population explosion we have today.
I saw my first Washington wolf pack in about 82. Male, female and pups
There was a wolfpack in Libby Creek almost two decades before they finally admitted it. Todd and I know they knew about it because we were in the same conference room where they told us to keep our mouths shut about it and to deny it if asked. THey were actually trying to teach us that....let that sink in. If you think they closed Alta for deer hunting and coyote hunting for several years because of deer management, you should go back to your cubicle.
Wolves have been here since the dawn of time, why now the problem?
and remind me again when they discovered our first wolfpack?
We know wolves were released in the GYA in 1995, so I'm not sure I understand your disbelief that they spread into the northwest. As far as the WDFW actually acknowledging packs later than they were present, they still do that.
Post by: bearpaw on December 26, 2019, 09:36:09 AM
So, to all of you guys that think this is from just "spreading".....where were all the wolves from 1950- 2010 and what caused the population explosion we have today.
I saw my first Washington wolf pack in about 82. Male, female and pups
There was a wolfpack in Libby Creek almost two decades before they finally admitted it. Todd and I know they knew about it because we were in the same conference room where they told us to keep our mouths shut about it and to deny it if asked. THey were actually trying to teach us that....let that sink in. If you think they closed Alta for deer hunting and coyote hunting for several years because of deer management, you should go back to your cubicle.
Wolves have been here since the dawn of time, why now the problem?
and remind me again when they discovered our first wolfpack?
We know wolves were released in the GYA in 1995, so I'm not sure I understand your disbelief that they spread into the northwest. As far as the WDFW actually acknowledging packs later than they were present, they still do that.
Piano, please read my previous post, that WDFW meeting when they stopped coyote hunting to protect the wolves was several years before 1995.
Post by: KFhunter on December 26, 2019, 09:43:03 AM
Post by: boneaddict on December 26, 2019, 09:44:40 AM
Post by: Curly on December 26, 2019, 09:47:03 AM
The wdfw signs I saw in '91 were warning people that there were wolves in the area and to be careful to identify them and not mistake them for coyotes. I never took it to mean that they released them......maybe I'm just naive? It wasn't that far from B.C. so I just always assumed they traveled down from there?
Post by: KFhunter on December 26, 2019, 09:52:12 AM
Just because wdfw knew wolves were in the state in the 80's and early 90's doesn't mean they planted them, right?
The wdfw signs I saw in '91 were warning people that there were wolves in the area and to be careful to identify them and not mistake them for coyotes. I never took it to mean that they released them......maybe I'm just naive? It wasn't that far from B.C. so I just always assumed they traveled down from there?
So we acknowledge Washington's always had wolves.
So why their sudden and rapid explosion this last 10 years?
It certainly wasn't due to a corresponding explosion of our game herds this last decade was it?
Post by: boneaddict on December 26, 2019, 10:13:17 AM
and what I was also trying to illustrate is that they had intent to deceive, cover up, and issue propaganda without being upfront to the public.
They screwed up with the grizzly bear, making the mistake to ask the public what we really thought. I bet they wished they kept their mouths shut, but might have found it harder to get away with. :dunno:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 26, 2019, 10:18:41 AM
Washington has had cougars forever. They didn't seem as abundant and rarely seen until about thirty years ago. The numbers harvested back then were similar to now. Now, you can find tracks/kills and see a cat with less relative effort compared to the past. I doubt any were imported.
Post by: Curly on December 26, 2019, 10:19:02 AM
I'm not totally against the idea that wolves got help from humans by being released, but I really doubt the state government did some secret operation.
When did the ban on hunting bears and cougar with hounds start (1996)? And when did WDFW make using dogs for coyote hunting illegal? If hounds were still out there chasing stuff, I doubt wolves would find it as appealing to set-up shop.
Post by: boneaddict on December 26, 2019, 10:21:37 AM
Change in behavior? Were the original wolves elk and moose eater? Maybe they only had small litters? :dunno:
Washington has had cougars forever. They didn't seem as abundant and rarely seen until about thirty years ago. The numbers harvested back then were similar to now. Now, you can find tracks/kills and see a cat with less relative effort compared to the past. I doubt any were imported.
Cats can be directly linked to the hound ban.
Post by: kentrek on December 26, 2019, 10:32:27 AM
Legitimate question :dunno:
Post by: Curly on December 26, 2019, 10:34:07 AM
Just because wdfw knew wolves were in the state in the 80's and early 90's doesn't mean they planted them, right?
The wdfw signs I saw in '91 were warning people that there were wolves in the area and to be careful to identify them and not mistake them for coyotes. I never took it to mean that they released them......maybe I'm just naive? It wasn't that far from B.C. so I just always assumed they traveled down from there?
So we acknowledge Washington's always had wolves.
So why their sudden and rapid explosion this last 10 years?
It certainly wasn't due to a corresponding explosion of our game herds this last decade was it?
Another reason for the wolf explosion is likely found in Wolfbait's posts #'s 59, 60 and 61. The wolves released in 1995 were Yukon wolves and were much larger than the Timber wolves that previously existed in this State.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 26, 2019, 10:38:48 AM
So, to all of you guys that think this is from just "spreading".....where were all the wolves from 1950- 2010 and what caused the population explosion we have today.
I saw my first Washington wolf pack in about 82. Male, female and pups
There was a wolfpack in Libby Creek almost two decades before they finally admitted it. Todd and I know they knew about it because we were in the same conference room where they told us to keep our mouths shut about it and to deny it if asked. THey were actually trying to teach us that....let that sink in. If you think they closed Alta for deer hunting and coyote hunting for several years because of deer management, you should go back to your cubicle.
Wolves have been here since the dawn of time, why now the problem?
and remind me again when they discovered our first wolfpack?
I was at the WDFW meeting years ago when the game commission passed the rule to stop coyote hunting in parts of the Okanogan to protect the wolves that the Dept testified were in those areas. So make no mistake, WDFW knew there were wolves long before the claimed first "Lookout Pack" was widely publicized.
Could this have been to protect the last of the resident WA timber wolves? I thought those were in the N. Cascades but just wondering.
Post by: KFhunter on December 26, 2019, 10:57:22 AM
"The Mackenzie wolves are more prone to rapid expansion than our native timber wolves"
Which begs the questions:
(1) why are they protected if they are not native
(2) if these non-native wolves are so prone to rapid expansion, why haven't they already done so 100's or 1000's of years ago?
Post by: Curly on December 26, 2019, 11:01:27 AM
2) 100's of years ago they were controlled by poison. As far as 1000's of years ago.......... :dunno:
Post by: buckfvr on December 26, 2019, 11:21:08 AM
Post by: bigmacc on December 26, 2019, 11:39:22 AM
So, to all of you guys that think this is from just "spreading".....where were all the wolves from 1950- 2010 and what caused the population explosion we have today.
I saw my first Washington wolf pack in about 82. Male, female and pups
There was a wolfpack in Libby Creek almost two decades before they finally admitted it. Todd and I know they knew about it because we were in the same conference room where they told us to keep our mouths shut about it and to deny it if asked. THey were actually trying to teach us that....let that sink in. If you think they closed Alta for deer hunting and coyote hunting for several years because of deer management, you should go back to your cubicle.
Wolves have been here since the dawn of time, why now the problem?
and remind me again when they discovered our first wolfpack?
:yeah: :tup:.....On two separate occasions my dad and I were also told to "keep our mouths shut", and we were also told that "we didn't see anything", one instance involved sheep being released in the early 1970,s(or late 60,s :dunno:) up the Swakane and another involved a wolf we seen in the early 90,s in the Methow. My family has covered dang near every square inch of that valley going back to 1917, have been friends with packers and some of the original residents of this valley, some of which had history going back to the 1860,s. Wolves have always "been around" in this valley but like cougars, were almost a treat if you ever actually got a chance to see one back in the day. The 100 or so residents of "Little Bellingham Camp" going back to 1917 never saw a wolf, my dad said that they heard them one year up around Andrews creek(1957 I believe he said), another time up around Black Canyon and once up Gold Creek. Thats 100 people or so covering miles and miles of terrain over a 100 year time frame during all 4 seasons in thais valley, hiking, hunting, scouting, fishing etc. on foot and on horseback and rarely HEARING wolves, but never seeing any, knowing they were there but were never in numbers like today. Cougar populations boomed after the gloves were put on concerning how we were able to hunt them, period. Why the HUGE spike in wolf numbers in the Methow over the last 25 years or so? Why, (if this "natural spreading" from Canada, which is just a few dozen miles or so to the north of the town of Winthrop)didn't the wolves set up shop in great numbers from Winthrop north first, then over the years continue moving south down the Valley? Seems they all "just appeared" in the middle valley, something that leaves some folks scratching their heads, a lot of folks who have history there and know the area. Its easy to see and understand the population explosion of cougars and bears over the last 25 or so years, its not rocket science, wolves are another issue, as far as the Methow goes, things make no sense, they don't add up and many common sense questions cannot be answered and in some instances won't be answered. Had an old packer tell me a few years ago concerning the whole "they migrated here from Canada"theory, the very thought I mentioned earlier, If they have been "migrating into the Methow from Canada, then why weren't they being seen in more and more numbers in the north part of the valley over the years, there was plenty of food for them, very little human encroachment etc., they would have had thousands of square miles to breed, eat etc., all pretty much undisturbed, but instead, these wolves who folks have known were out there since the beginning of time basically all the sudden decided to be seen everywhere in a certain area in the middle of the Valley, all within a few year period, no gradual increase in sightings over the years moving south down the valley, it was just like they all travelled miles and miles through prime wolf habitat that was full of food to all congregate in a certain area of the valley and it all happened very quickly. I am not a conspiracy person at all, but like that old packer told me "there is no way in hell those wolves ended up in the area they did, AND in the numbers they did AND within the short timeframe they did, without help", those were his words and they make sense.
Post by: jackelope on December 26, 2019, 11:56:35 AM
Call me crazy. It's nothing new.
Post by: Bango skank on December 26, 2019, 12:00:39 PM
This is probably a crazy theory to a lot of folks but do we ever stop to think that the advent of social media and everyone talking about everything all day long and people meeting new people and the long range rumor mill and all that has something to do with this? Pre-social media, I'm not sure how I would have ever even heard of a wolf pack in the Methow or anywhere else for that matter had it not been talked about in forums like this and other social media avenues. I think social media magnifies the presence of wolves in the sense they were always there to a degree....they just weren't talked about.
Call me crazy. It's nothing new.
Its a good point. Sightings, pictures etc travel further, faster, and to far more ears now than ever before, thanks to the internet. Things you would have only heard from the neighbor, or at the bar or grange or wherever in a rural community before, now people everywhere hear about those sightings and incidents, and instantaneously.
Post by: KFhunter on December 26, 2019, 12:04:57 PM
This is probably a crazy theory to a lot of folks but do we ever stop to think that the advent of social media and everyone talking about everything all day long and people meeting new people and the long range rumor mill and all that has something to do with this? Pre-social media, I'm not sure how I would have ever even heard of a wolf pack in the Methow or anywhere else for that matter had it not been talked about in forums like this and other social media avenues. I think social media magnifies the presence of wolves in the sense they were always there to a degree....they just weren't talked about.
Call me crazy. It's nothing new.
Sooo, your theory is that the internet has caused the wolf expansion?
For me the opposite is true, the internet has caused me to not be in the woods nearly as much :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
When I was bored I went hunting, hiking and being outdoors...now I turn on the computer or look at my phone, and I'm out there less as a result.
Post by: boneaddict on December 26, 2019, 12:05:50 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 26, 2019, 12:23:36 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 26, 2019, 12:26:37 PM
Post by: boneaddict on December 26, 2019, 12:35:19 PM
Your experience with wolves has little impact on my life, in other words... I am not influenced much by social media in regards to wolves, thus answering or giving my opinion on Jackelope's thought.
Does that help?
Quote
and show me that evidence and I'll be among the strongest voices demanding action against those who participated in the releases.
No one is going to see that evidence (if there is any) until someone wants to make money on a book deal and the statue of limitations runs out on the crime.
Post by: KFhunter on December 26, 2019, 12:38:31 PM
Post by: bigmacc on December 26, 2019, 12:43:49 PM
This is probably a crazy theory to a lot of folks but do we ever stop to think that the advent of social media and everyone talking about everything all day long and people meeting new people and the long range rumor mill and all that has something to do with this? Pre-social media, I'm not sure how I would have ever even heard of a wolf pack in the Methow or anywhere else for that matter had it not been talked about in forums like this and other social media avenues. I think social media magnifies the presence of wolves in the sense they were always there to a degree....they just weren't talked about.
Call me crazy. It's nothing new.
Its a good point. Sightings, pictures etc travel further, faster, and to far more ears now than ever before, thanks to the internet. Things you would have only heard from the neighbor, or at the bar or grange or wherever in a rural community before, now people everywhere hear about those sightings and incidents, and instantaneously.
Well I can only speak to the Methow but back then(pre internet stuff) dang near everybody knew everybody in the Methow, if So and So cut his finger off while splitting kindling up in Mazama then So and So would hear about it in Pateros within a week. I remember back in the early 70,s those 2 big bucks that my dad and I had killed way up in the north valley, we filled up with gas in Pateros on our way home about 10 days later, the guy at the station had heard about our 2 bucks and wanted to know if he could take a picture of them. The last sentence of my above post is key IMHO, that packer, who grew up there, lived there, worked there and had experience with the wildlife there, saying that there is no way that this happened the way it did WITHOUT HELP, I will believe folks like that, with his history and pedigree before believing most of the stuff you read on the internet, as far as wolves in the Methow go. As far as other parts of the state, I can't and won't comment on that because I have no history, there is a chance wolves could have migrated into this state in certain areas, they could have been "helped" into other areas, could have illegally been moved by "other partys" in certain areas and could have been " secretly planted" in areas. The for sure thing is, the wolf population has exploded AND expanded over the last 25 or so years FOR SOME REASON, think about that and ask why now? and how did it just happen, why didn't it happen before and why did it basically coincide with the other predator booms in this state(bear and cougar), they all needed help to get to this point, bear and cougar got help at the ballot box through politics, no more hound hunting equals a booming population. Now how do we help wolf numbers they contemplated....hmmm, we can't limit hunting like we did for cougars and bears, so what can we do to kickstart a population serge and expansion? WAIT, I know, lets just let them MIGRATE into areas there are great food sources!......REALLY! There are some folks out there that believe ALL of it, like I said, I,m sure it(the migrating theory) has happened in some areas but on the other hand, I am not naive enough to believe that ALSO in some OTHER areas that they have "been helped" in some way to bolster their numbers and expand their turf, either by planting them in some areas or moving them from point A to point B.
Post by: boneaddict on December 26, 2019, 12:48:53 PM
It helps me a lot, I didn't understand what Jackalope was getting at with the internet comment.
I am betting that you are more influenced from the fact you cant go for a ten minute walk from your house without hitting wolf tracks than you are from social media.
Post by: jackelope on December 26, 2019, 12:49:37 PM
It helps me a lot, I didn't understand what Jackalope was getting at with the internet comment.
My only point wasn't really even a point. More a question. For the folks like P-man and I who are not in wolf central, how much info would even get to guys like us if everyone and their dog wasn't reading and talking about wolves literally every day on hunt-wa and facebook and the like? How would we even know in other words. The way it was in 1985 without all this social media stuff.
Post by: jackelope on December 26, 2019, 12:50:59 PM
This is probably a crazy theory to a lot of folks but do we ever stop to think that the advent of social media and everyone talking about everything all day long and people meeting new people and the long range rumor mill and all that has something to do with this? Pre-social media, I'm not sure how I would have ever even heard of a wolf pack in the Methow or anywhere else for that matter had it not been talked about in forums like this and other social media avenues. I think social media magnifies the presence of wolves in the sense they were always there to a degree....they just weren't talked about.
Call me crazy. It's nothing new.
Sooo, your theory is that the internet has caused the wolf expansion?
For me the opposite is true, the internet has caused me to not be in the woods nearly as much :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
When I was bored I went hunting, hiking and being outdoors...now I turn on the computer or look at my phone, and I'm out there less as a result.
No, not at all. But it has caused wide spread knowledge of the wolves. Avenues for knowledge of the wolves to spread.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 26, 2019, 01:07:19 PM
It means boots on the ground Pman. Seen the change first hand, experience of wolves in the first place. In other words I guess Social media has influenced you. Otherwise would you even know where the Methow is, or how wolves have impacted it? Why would you need to see the evidence? Has it impacted your life in Vancouver? Yet?
Your experience with wolves has little impact on my life, in other words... I am not influenced much by social media in regards to wolves, thus answering or giving my opinion on Jackelope's thought.
Does that help?Quoteand show me that evidence and I'll be among the strongest voices demanding action against those who participated in the releases.
No one is going to see that evidence (if there is any) until someone wants to make money on a book deal and the statue of limitations runs out on the crime.
I respectfully disagree about the social media aspect. I knew about the introduction of wolves into the GYA in 1995 while they were still in the planning stages from print hunting-related media and I opposed it with letters and emails. I will agree that not nearly as many people knew about it at that time because of the lack of social media interaction. I'm unsure if the introduction of social media helped or hindered the plan to let the Canadian wolves spread throughout the West. I suspect it helped because of the ignorance in metropolitan areas with regards to real wildlife management.
As far as evidence is concerned, I've got to see it. Gut instincts don't cut the cake when we're talking about allegations which could end up in terminations and, in fact, incarcerations.
Post by: jackelope on December 26, 2019, 01:11:27 PM
This is probably a crazy theory to a lot of folks but do we ever stop to think that the advent of social media and everyone talking about everything all day long and people meeting new people and the long range rumor mill and all that has something to do with this? Pre-social media, I'm not sure how I would have ever even heard of a wolf pack in the Methow or anywhere else for that matter had it not been talked about in forums like this and other social media avenues. I think social media magnifies the presence of wolves in the sense they were always there to a degree....they just weren't talked about.
Call me crazy. It's nothing new.
Its a good point. Sightings, pictures etc travel further, faster, and to far more ears now than ever before, thanks to the internet. Things you would have only heard from the neighbor, or at the bar or grange or wherever in a rural community before, now people everywhere hear about those sightings and incidents, and instantaneously.
Well I can only speak to the Methow but back then(pre internet stuff) dang near everybody knew everybody in the Methow, if So and So cut his finger off while splitting kindling up in Mazama then So and So would hear about it in Pateros within a week. I remember back in the early 70,s those 2 big bucks that my dad and I had killed way up in the north valley, we filled up with gas in Pateros on our way home about 10 days later, the guy at the station had heard about our 2 bucks and wanted to know if he could take a picture of them. The last sentence of my above post is key IMHO, that packer, who grew up there, lived there, worked there and had experience with the wildlife there, saying that there is no way that this happened the way it did WITHOUT HELP, I will believe folks like that, with his history and pedigree before believing most of the stuff you read on the internet, as far as wolves in the Methow go. As far as other parts of the state, I can't and won't comment on that because I have no history, there is a chance wolves could have migrated into this state in certain areas, they could have been "helped" into other areas, could have illegally been moved by "other partys" in certain areas and could have been " secretly planted" in areas. The for sure thing is, the wolf population has exploded AND expanded over the last 25 or so years FOR SOME REASON, think about that and ask why now? and how did it just happen, why didn't it happen before and why did it basically coincide with the other predator booms in this state(bear and cougar), they all needed help to get to this point, bear and cougar got help at the ballot box through politics, no more hound hunting equals a booming population. Now how do we help wolf numbers they contemplated....hmmm, we can't limit hunting like we did for cougars and bears, so what can we do to kickstart a population serge and expansion? WAIT, I know, lets just let them MIGRATE into areas there are great food sources!......REALLY! There are some folks out there that believe ALL of it, like I said, I,m sure it(the migrating theory) has happened in some areas but on the other hand, I am not naive enough to believe that ALSO in some OTHER areas that they have "been helped" in some way to bolster their numbers and expand their turf, either by planting them in some areas or moving them from point A to point B.
These days, I would have known about the finger injury before that kindling was making heat. The bucks you guys killed would have been known about before they were quartered up and packed off the mountain.
Post by: jackelope on December 26, 2019, 01:36:04 PM
It means boots on the ground Pman. Seen the change first hand, experience of wolves in the first place. In other words I guess Social media has influenced you. Otherwise would you even know where the Methow is, or how wolves have impacted it? Why would you need to see the evidence? Has it impacted your life in Vancouver? Yet?
Your experience with wolves has little impact on my life, in other words... I am not influenced much by social media in regards to wolves, thus answering or giving my opinion on Jackelope's thought.
Does that help?Quoteand show me that evidence and I'll be among the strongest voices demanding action against those who participated in the releases.
No one is going to see that evidence (if there is any) until someone wants to make money on a book deal and the statue of limitations runs out on the crime.
I respectfully disagree about the social media aspect. I knew about the introduction of wolves into the GYA in 1995 while they were still in the planning stages from print hunting-related media and I opposed it with letters and emails. I will agree that not nearly as many people knew about it at that time because of the lack of social media interaction. I'm unsure if the introduction of social media helped or hindered the plan to let the Canadian wolves spread throughout the West. I suspect it helped because of the ignorance in metropolitan areas with regards to real wildlife management.
As far as evidence is concerned, I've got to see it. Gut instincts don't cut the cake when we're talking about allegations which could end up in terminations and, in fact, incarcerations.
When you say GYA do you mean the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem?
Post by: bigmacc on December 26, 2019, 01:37:44 PM
This is probably a crazy theory to a lot of folks but do we ever stop to think that the advent of social media and everyone talking about everything all day long and people meeting new people and the long range rumor mill and all that has something to do with this? Pre-social media, I'm not sure how I would have ever even heard of a wolf pack in the Methow or anywhere else for that matter had it not been talked about in forums like this and other social media avenues. I think social media magnifies the presence of wolves in the sense they were always there to a degree....they just weren't talked about.
Call me crazy. It's nothing new.
Its a good point. Sightings, pictures etc travel further, faster, and to far more ears now than ever before, thanks to the internet. Things you would have only heard from the neighbor, or at the bar or grange or wherever in a rural community before, now people everywhere hear about those sightings and incidents, and instantaneously.
Well I can only speak to the Methow but back then(pre internet stuff) dang near everybody knew everybody in the Methow, if So and So cut his finger off while splitting kindling up in Mazama then So and So would hear about it in Pateros within a week. I remember back in the early 70,s those 2 big bucks that my dad and I had killed way up in the north valley, we filled up with gas in Pateros on our way home about 10 days later, the guy at the station had heard about our 2 bucks and wanted to know if he could take a picture of them. The last sentence of my above post is key IMHO, that packer, who grew up there, lived there, worked there and had experience with the wildlife there, saying that there is no way that this happened the way it did WITHOUT HELP, I will believe folks like that, with his history and pedigree before believing most of the stuff you read on the internet, as far as wolves in the Methow go. As far as other parts of the state, I can't and won't comment on that because I have no history, there is a chance wolves could have migrated into this state in certain areas, they could have been "helped" into other areas, could have illegally been moved by "other partys" in certain areas and could have been " secretly planted" in areas. The for sure thing is, the wolf population has exploded AND expanded over the last 25 or so years FOR SOME REASON, think about that and ask why now? and how did it just happen, why didn't it happen before and why did it basically coincide with the other predator booms in this state(bear and cougar), they all needed help to get to this point, bear and cougar got help at the ballot box through politics, no more hound hunting equals a booming population. Now how do we help wolf numbers they contemplated....hmmm, we can't limit hunting like we did for cougars and bears, so what can we do to kickstart a population serge and expansion? WAIT, I know, lets just let them MIGRATE into areas there are great food sources!......REALLY! There are some folks out there that believe ALL of it, like I said, I,m sure it(the migrating theory) has happened in some areas but on the other hand, I am not naive enough to believe that ALSO in some OTHER areas that they have "been helped" in some way to bolster their numbers and expand their turf, either by planting them in some areas or moving them from point A to point B.
These days, I would have known about the finger injury before that kindling was making heat. The bucks you guys killed would have been known about before they were quartered up and packed off the mountain.
:chuckle:.....yep, I get it........ I still have an open enough mind to believe that not all wolves (in the Methow anyway) migrated into that Valley, I do believe they have been in there off and on for a long,long time and some have bounced back and forth over the border, just like other wildlife has but like the packer told me, the way it happened, the area it happened in and the timeframe in which it happened equals one thing- "they needed help" for it to happen the way it did and for the numbers to basically explode over such a relatively short time frame. The one thing he kept saying was "why didn't they take over the north part of the valley" in the 80,s and 90,s if they were coming out of Canada. He said he asked that question numerous times and was told "we don't know".
Post by: idahohuntr on December 26, 2019, 01:43:31 PM
Leaves us with 2 choices:
1. WDFW and other federal agencies are masterful wizards smarter than all of their detractors and capable of pulling off a highly successful and elaborate scheme involving many people without leaving behind a trace of evidence
2. Wolves weren't transplanted by WDFW.
Folks - reject the tinfoil hats. Perpetuating these rumors and myths about agencies illegally transplanting wolves marginalizes hunters in this state...and we don't need that given the politics of WA.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 26, 2019, 01:45:03 PM
It means boots on the ground Pman. Seen the change first hand, experience of wolves in the first place. In other words I guess Social media has influenced you. Otherwise would you even know where the Methow is, or how wolves have impacted it? Why would you need to see the evidence? Has it impacted your life in Vancouver? Yet?
Your experience with wolves has little impact on my life, in other words... I am not influenced much by social media in regards to wolves, thus answering or giving my opinion on Jackelope's thought.
Does that help?Quoteand show me that evidence and I'll be among the strongest voices demanding action against those who participated in the releases.
No one is going to see that evidence (if there is any) until someone wants to make money on a book deal and the statue of limitations runs out on the crime.
I respectfully disagree about the social media aspect. I knew about the introduction of wolves into the GYA in 1995 while they were still in the planning stages from print hunting-related media and I opposed it with letters and emails. I will agree that not nearly as many people knew about it at that time because of the lack of social media interaction. I'm unsure if the introduction of social media helped or hindered the plan to let the Canadian wolves spread throughout the West. I suspect it helped because of the ignorance in metropolitan areas with regards to real wildlife management.
As far as evidence is concerned, I've got to see it. Gut instincts don't cut the cake when we're talking about allegations which could end up in terminations and, in fact, incarcerations.
When you say GYA do you mean the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem?
Yes, the Greater Yellowstone Area
Post by: boneaddict on December 26, 2019, 01:57:01 PM
Quote
Folks - reject the tinfoil hats. Perpetuating these rumors and myths about agencies illegally transplanting wolves marginalizes hunters in this state...and we don't need that given the politics of WA.
As pro wolf as you are, I almost bet you were part of it. Its usually easier to point and deny that way.
Post by: KFhunter on December 26, 2019, 01:58:09 PM
It's pretty astonishing, 8 pages and 150+ 'votes' and all these people with all this on the ground observation/experience and not one of them can provide any evidence of this secret conspiracy of wolf transport-release into WA.
Leaves us with 2 choices:
1. WDFW and other federal agencies are masterful wizards smarter than all of their detractors and capable of pulling off a highly successful and elaborate scheme involving many people without leaving behind a trace of evidence
2. Wolves weren't transplanted by WDFW.
Folks - reject the tinfoil hats. Perpetuating these rumors and myths about agencies illegally transplanting wolves marginalizes hunters in this state...and we don't need that given the politics of WA.
3. They're telling the truth but not everyone carries a camera 24/7
You're calling a lot of people liars there hoss, but I think you should look in the mirror before you sling that insult.
Some good upstanding folks seen what they seen, and I'll believe them over some agenda driven skyscreamer slinging insults on the interwebs.
Post by: buckfvr on December 26, 2019, 01:59:11 PM
It's pretty astonishing, 8 pages and 150+ 'votes' and all these people with all this on the ground observation/experience and not one of them can provide any evidence of this secret conspiracy of wolf transport-release into WA.
Leaves us with 2 choices:
1. WDFW and other federal agencies are masterful wizards smarter than all of their detractors and capable of pulling off a highly successful and elaborate scheme involving many people without leaving behind a trace of evidence
2. Wolves weren't transplanted by WDFW.
Folks - reject the tinfoil hats. Perpetuating these rumors and myths about agencies illegally transplanting wolves marginalizes hunters in this state...and we don't need that given the politics of WA.
It leaves YOU with two choices.......others of us have considerably more open minds based on many, many years of watching and learning from deceitful agencies who are quite capable of making things happen when no one is paying attention, and yes, some of it is eventually found out much later or when its politically favorable/convenient. If you cant think of anything off hand, then yes, I understand you being a 2 choicer, glass full, glass empty person.
Post by: jackelope on December 26, 2019, 02:09:43 PM
I used to ask for evidence of wolves getting released. I asked because of posts in 2009 like this excerpt is from.
Quote
They planted some more this spring on the new game department land they bought this spring. They were trying to claim that these wolves just move in on their own, but then KER-Blam they got caught let them out of crates. I saw wolves in here 4 years ago and so did some other folks, and they been multipling every since.
I stopped asking for evidence a while back because I realized I was never going to get it. Others did too. Some folks newer to the forum are asking again for evidence. You're not going to get it. Don't waste your breath. And I wasn't asking for evidence of anything from the 80's or 90's. I, along with a lot of others on the forum, was asking for evidence in 2009 when these claims were made.
Post by: KFhunter on December 26, 2019, 02:20:29 PM
Post by: jackelope on December 26, 2019, 02:24:26 PM
I think we need to throw a lot of these preconceived notions out the window, or at least take a good hard look at everything we've been taught about wolves our whole lives, and now take for granted.
Can you be more specific?
Post by: idahohuntr on December 26, 2019, 02:29:52 PM
As pro wolf as you are, I almost bet you were part of it. Its usually easier to point and deny that way.:chuckle: :tinfoil:
I'm not pro-wolf, I'm pro-facts.
Post by: KFhunter on December 26, 2019, 02:41:25 PM
I think we need to throw a lot of these preconceived notions out the window, or at least take a good hard look at everything we've been taught about wolves our whole lives, and now take for granted.
Can you be more specific?
If we could all get past this one I'd be happy.
"wolves only target the sick and wounded thereby strengthening the herds health"
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 26, 2019, 02:45:00 PM
Post by: bigmacc on December 26, 2019, 02:45:59 PM
It's pretty astonishing, 8 pages and 150+ 'votes' and all these people with all this on the ground observation/experience and not one of them can provide any evidence of this secret conspiracy of wolf transport-release into WA.
Leaves us with 2 choices:
1. WDFW and other federal agencies are masterful wizards smarter than all of their detractors and capable of pulling off a highly successful and elaborate scheme involving many people without leaving behind a trace of evidence
2. Wolves weren't transplanted by WDFW.
Folks - reject the tinfoil hats. Perpetuating these rumors and myths about agencies illegally transplanting wolves marginalizes hunters in this state...and we don't need that given the politics of WA.
Speaking for myself, I have never wore a tin foil hat and I know a lot of good folks that have never wore them, I also know folks who overtime, that are not agreed with, continuously accuse others of wearing them, with due respect, I may now know of another. I guess some of YOUR thoughts and questions can be directed back in your direction, for instance your #2 from above, do you know for a fact and have 100% on the ground evidence that all wolves in this state have NOT been transplanted or brought in by WDFW or anyone else for that matter, either above board or in secret and if not, it doesn't mean your wearing a tin foil hat or a conspiracist, it means you believe something that you read or were told by someone, just like some of us believe what we were told by people we believe or respect. I don't think ANY OF US knows for sure how all these wolves got into certain parts of this state and how/why it happened when it did but like I said, just speaking for myself, I refuse to be closed minded or naive to the point I won't see and hear all ideas and thoughts and as for me I believe some have wandered into parts of this state, I think some have migrated in looking for food sources, I think some very, very small numbers have been in some remote places for decades and decades but I also can see how they may have been brought into or introduced into certain areas, for some of these spots where wolves are today and the way they "appeared" with the numbers being present, there is no explanation other than getting "some help" and then too on the other hand, in certain areas you can see how the migratory/wandering theory could be spot on. In some cases all the dots connect quite nicely, and in other cases they don't.
Post by: Buckhunter24 on December 26, 2019, 03:06:14 PM
It's pretty astonishing, 8 pages and 150+ 'votes' and all these people with all this on the ground observation/experience and not one of them can provide any evidence of this secret conspiracy of wolf transport-release into WA.
Leaves us with 2 choices:
1. WDFW and other federal agencies are masterful wizards smarter than all of their detractors and capable of pulling off a highly successful and elaborate scheme involving many people without leaving behind a trace of evidence
2. Wolves weren't transplanted by WDFW.
Folks - reject the tinfoil hats. Perpetuating these rumors and myths about agencies illegally transplanting wolves marginalizes hunters in this state...and we don't need that given the politics of WA.
Speaking for myself, I have never wore a tin foil hat and I know a lot of good folks that have never wore them, I also know folks who overtime, that are not agreed with, continuously accuse others of wearing them, with due respect, I may now know of another. I guess some of YOUR thoughts and questions can be directed back in your direction, for instance your #2 from above, do you know for a fact and have 100% on the ground evidence that all wolves in this state have NOT been transplanted or brought in by WDFW or anyone else for that matter, either above board or in secret and if not, it doesn't mean your wearing a tin foil hat or a conspiracist, it means you believe something that you read or were told by someone, just like some of us believe what we were told by people we believe or respect. I don't think ANY OF US knows for sure how all these wolves got into certain parts of this state and how/why it happened when it did but like I said, just speaking for myself, I refuse to be closed minded or naive to the point I won't see and hear all ideas and thoughts and as for me I believe some have wandered into parts of this state, I think some have migrated in looking for food sources, I think some very, very small numbers have been in some remote places for decades and decades but I also can see how they may have been brought into or introduced into certain areas, for some of these spots where wolves are today and the way they "appeared" with the numbers being present, there is no explanation other than getting "some help" and then too on the other hand, in certain areas you can see how the migratory/wandering theory could be spot on. In some cases all the dots connect quite nicely, and in other cases they don't.
This is a really well written post, pretty much exactly how I see it
Post by: msg on December 26, 2019, 03:56:19 PM
Post by: kentrek on December 26, 2019, 03:58:49 PM
Maybe the wolves went looking for a new area, walked for a couple days (200 miles) in one direction then decide to stop and set up camp and then also managed to make a few puppies over the next 20 years :dunno:
Post by: jackelope on December 26, 2019, 04:25:04 PM
I think we need to throw a lot of these preconceived notions out the window, or at least take a good hard look at everything we've been taught about wolves our whole lives, and now take for granted.
Can you be more specific?
If we could all get past this one I'd be happy.
"wolves only target the sick and wounded thereby strengthening the herds health"
OK. I thought that was an old one that we've all disproved at this point.
:chuckle:
Post by: RB on December 26, 2019, 04:59:52 PM
I think we need to throw a lot of these preconceived notions out the window, or at least take a good hard look at everything we've been taught about wolves our whole lives, and now take for granted.
Can you be more specific?
If we could all get past this one I'd be happy.
"wolves only target the sick and wounded thereby strengthening the herds health"
:yeah:
1000 times this!! The average person still believes this because that is what the wolf lovers and media portray!
Look how good it was for the Yellowstone ecosystem all those plants came back after the wolf was introduced, but that was because they killed most of the Elk, but thats ok cause now tourist can see wolves instead of Elk.
Post by: KFhunter on December 26, 2019, 05:14:20 PM
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Post by: KFhunter on December 26, 2019, 05:18:00 PM
"Wolves will make you a better hunter"
We've all heard that one right here on HW
What makes people better hunters is interacting with the game species your hunting, taking away animals so people have less interaction is like trying to train a bird dog, but not giving it any birds to learn from
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Post by: KFhunter on December 26, 2019, 05:22:19 PM
"wolves aren't going to have an impact on hunter opportunity"
:rolleyes:
Post by: KFhunter on December 26, 2019, 05:23:55 PM
"only one pair of alpha wolves breed"
another gooder :chuckle:
Post by: Bango skank on December 26, 2019, 05:25:01 PM
Post by: KFhunter on December 26, 2019, 05:34:05 PM
It's just a family group folks, they're only dominate by virtue of being the parents and the younger offspring haven't made full sexual maturity, when they do they'll run off and find a mate of their own.
There's no special wolf ranking system, there's no "alphas" no "betas" just family groups consisting of the breeding pair and offspring of varying maturity levels.
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on December 26, 2019, 05:40:09 PM
Or how about the whole concept of this "alpha" thing, as if there's one wolf and his mate that has fought to be the big dog and all others must bow down.
It's just a family group folks, they're only dominate by virtue of being the parents and the younger offspring haven't made full sexual maturity, when they do they'll run off and find a mate of their own.
There's no special wolf ranking system, there's no "alphas" no "betas" just family groups consisting of the breeding pair and offspring of varying maturity levels.
Most the tracks I ran into in 111/117 this year were loan wolf tracks doing just that. Scary to think what the population will do when they find a mate and create a new pack.
Post by: kentrek on December 26, 2019, 05:49:25 PM
Or how about the whole concept of this "alpha" thing, as if there's one wolf and his mate that has fought to be the big dog and all others must bow down.
It's just a family group folks, they're only dominate by virtue of being the parents and the younger offspring haven't made full sexual maturity, when they do they'll run off and find a mate of their own.
There's no special wolf ranking system, there's no "alphas" no "betas" just family groups consisting of the breeding pair and offspring of varying maturity levels.
Are you a biologist that spends a career on wolves ??
Post by: KFhunter on December 26, 2019, 05:59:04 PM
but no. I just happen to live where it all started and got to observe it all over a long period of time. I read, I learn, and I go out and observe with my own eyes.
Much of what we know of pack behaviour was from a swedish researcher who observed a pack of wolves in a zoo like way back in the 40's, much of what he brought to main stream thinking is wrong, but disney picked it up and its ingrained into pop culture. What wolves do in a zoo isn't what they do in the wild. Even real wolf bio's are frustrated at this Disney thing because it just stuck.
but it works very good for the politicians and even better for those who make a ton of money off donations by ill informed people trying to 'save a wolf'
Post by: jackelope on December 26, 2019, 06:00:37 PM
Buried in the archives (2009-2011) of the Hunt-Wa site in a cardboard box there where some photos of government vehicles in North east Washington during the winter with culvert traps in tow behind them. Numerous members during that time held the position that as long as the folks in Eastern Washington had them it was fine. Just don't let them get into their elk hunting areas. While this will be dismissed as tin foil hats. It is documented that wolves were transplanted from Ontario to the USA in Minnesota. So would it be that far out of line to think the governing body who transplanted them to Minnesota maybe also hauled a few to other areas of the US to help with the introduction? Perhaps on of the more senior Mods can look for the box.
Who posted them? I can probably find them.
Post by: kentrek on December 26, 2019, 06:27:09 PM
I'm flattered that you'd ask that :tup:
but no. I just happen to live where it all started and got to observe it all over a long period of time. I read, I learn, and I go out and observe with my own eyes.
Much of what we know of pack behaviour was from a swedish researcher who observed a pack of wolves in a zoo like way back in the 40's, much of what he brought to main stream thinking is wrong, but disney picked it up and its ingrained into pop culture. What wolves do in a zoo isn't what they do in the wild. Even real wolf bio's are frustrated at this Disney thing because it just stuck.
but it works very good for the politicians and even better for those who make a ton of money off donations by ill informed people trying to 'save a wolf'
Seems like when I get in on a wolf pack it's pretty obvious there is an alpha type structure...I dont know anything other then what ive experienced 1st hand
Post by: konradcountry on December 26, 2019, 08:14:22 PM
It's pretty astonishing, 8 pages and 150+ 'votes' and all these people with all this on the ground observation/experience and not one of them can provide any evidence of this secret conspiracy of wolf transport-release into WA.
Leaves us with 2 choices:
1. WDFW and other federal agencies are masterful wizards smarter than all of their detractors and capable of pulling off a highly successful and elaborate scheme involving many people without leaving behind a trace of evidence
2. Wolves weren't transplanted by WDFW.
I can think of other scenarios.
3. A certain pro-wolf organization that breeds them releases two breeding pairs into the wild to promote conservation
4. Wolf-dog breeders abandon their stock
Of course there isn't going to be hard evidence in either scenario. But the lack of evidence doesn't lead to a conclusion either.
Post by: KFhunter on December 26, 2019, 08:58:47 PM
It was a Ruby creek wolf near Ione WA. Two females got used to people and other dogs, got to hanging around town.
WDFW captured one of the females in a trap and brought her to the wolf sanctuary in W/WA wolf haven?
the other female wolf got knocked up by a sheep dog, they caught her, got her spayed, then turned loose again, but then was later run over by a vehicle.
Soe one went to a sanctuary, the other WDFW turned loose
edit for clarification
Post by: idahohuntr on December 26, 2019, 09:37:46 PM
If we are including individual private citizens releasing domesticated dogs with wolf like characteristics...I have no doubt some stray dogs have been turned loose by any number of WA's millions of residents. :dunno:It's pretty astonishing, 8 pages and 150+ 'votes' and all these people with all this on the ground observation/experience and not one of them can provide any evidence of this secret conspiracy of wolf transport-release into WA.
Leaves us with 2 choices:
1. WDFW and other federal agencies are masterful wizards smarter than all of their detractors and capable of pulling off a highly successful and elaborate scheme involving many people without leaving behind a trace of evidence
2. Wolves weren't transplanted by WDFW.
I can think of other scenarios.
3. A certain pro-wolf organization that breeds them releases two breeding pairs into the wild to promote conservation
4. Wolf-dog breeders abandon their stock
Of course there isn't going to be hard evidence in either scenario. But the lack of evidence doesn't lead to a conclusion either.
My contention, for which none of these hunt-wa geniuses has been able to provide any credible evidence to the contrary, is that wdfw or other government agencies have not been involved in the transplant of wild wolves into WA.
We get a lot of innuendo and some very cowardly people who admit to being coerced into keeping there mouths shut by government bureaucrats, but no credible evidence.
Post by: KFhunter on December 26, 2019, 09:39:39 PM
curious where this was, it mowed down with a scent rock placed. Conservation northwest sure knew where the very first wolves showed up, and got a camera on it, and mowed an area so they could get really nice pictures of the new pups.
2008
Post by: KFhunter on December 26, 2019, 10:16:43 PM
I wonder what real wild wolves would think of a lawnmower next to their den?
Post by: KFhunter on December 26, 2019, 10:25:21 PM
Post by: Gobble Doc on December 26, 2019, 10:28:57 PM
Or maybe they just happened to catch the very first wolf to naturally disperse in WA, and stick a collar on it, and prep a nice denning area?Was that a 2008 video?
I wonder what real wild wolves would think of a lawnmower next to their den?
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Post by: KFhunter on December 26, 2019, 10:30:57 PM
video dated 7/17/2008
Post by: Gobble Doc on December 26, 2019, 10:46:09 PM
Ya, supposedly showing the very first pack of wolves in Washington.Yea, I completely agree. Them somehow being the first to find with their hidden cameras... I smell a rat.
video dated 7/17/2008
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Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on December 26, 2019, 11:05:26 PM
I do know of one wolf WDFW has released.
It was a Ruby creek wolf near Ione WA. Two females got used to people and other dogs, got to hanging around town.
WDFW captured one of the females in a trap and brought her to the wolf sanctuary in W/WA wolf haven?
the other female wolf got knocked up by a sheep dog, they caught her, got her spayed, then turned loose again, but then was later run over by a vehicle.
Soe one went to a sanctuary, the other WDFW turned loose
edit for clarification
But, turning that one loose is not the same as importing them.
Post by: huntnphool on December 27, 2019, 12:16:49 AM
We get a lot of innuendo and some very cowardly people who admit to being coerced into keeping there mouths shut by government bureaucrats, but no credible evidence.It's pretty astonishing, 8 pages and 150+ 'votes' and all these people with all this on the ground observation/experience and not one of them can provide any evidence of this secret conspiracy of wolf transport-release into WA.
Leaves us with 2 choices:
1. WDFW and other federal agencies are masterful wizards smarter than all of their detractors and capable of pulling off a highly successful and elaborate scheme involving many people without leaving behind a trace of evidence
2. Wolves weren't transplanted by WDFW.
I can think of other scenarios.
3. A certain pro-wolf organization that breeds them releases two breeding pairs into the wild to promote conservation
4. Wolf-dog breeders abandon their stock
Of course there isn't going to be hard evidence in either scenario. But the lack of evidence doesn't lead to a conclusion either.
Walks in...then heads to the microwave to make popcorn...
Post by: fishngamereaper on December 27, 2019, 06:01:24 AM
If we are including individual private citizens releasing domesticated dogs with wolf like characteristics...I have no doubt some stray dogs have been turned loose by any number of WA's millions of residents. :dunno:It's pretty astonishing, 8 pages and 150+ 'votes' and all these people with all this on the ground observation/experience and not one of them can provide any evidence of this secret conspiracy of wolf transport-release into WA.
Leaves us with 2 choices:
1. WDFW and other federal agencies are masterful wizards smarter than all of their detractors and capable of pulling off a highly successful and elaborate scheme involving many people without leaving behind a trace of evidence
2. Wolves weren't transplanted by WDFW.
I can think of other scenarios.
3. A certain pro-wolf organization that breeds them releases two breeding pairs into the wild to promote conservation
4. Wolf-dog breeders abandon their stock
Of course there isn't going to be hard evidence in either scenario. But the lack of evidence doesn't lead to a conclusion either.
My contention, for which none of these hunt-wa geniuses has been able to provide any credible evidence to the contrary, is that wdfw or other government agencies have not been involved in the transplant of wild wolves into WA.
We get a lot of innuendo and some very cowardly people who admit to being coerced into keeping there mouths shut by government bureaucrats, but no credible evidence.
Man you come across as an arrogant human being. Your labeling alot of people you don't even know..and your attitude is the exact reason I don't share more details. Just because people think they have the right to know things doesn't mean they get to. There are alot of things I know that you and others don't know. If I don't care to share on this forum does that make my knowledge less credible. I guess for some of you it does.
So I guess you just continue to sit back and judge others, create labels that make you feel good. I'll continue on with my knowledge and use it when and where I see fit...
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 27, 2019, 06:45:23 AM
If we are including individual private citizens releasing domesticated dogs with wolf like characteristics...I have no doubt some stray dogs have been turned loose by any number of WA's millions of residents. :dunno:It's pretty astonishing, 8 pages and 150+ 'votes' and all these people with all this on the ground observation/experience and not one of them can provide any evidence of this secret conspiracy of wolf transport-release into WA.
Leaves us with 2 choices:
1. WDFW and other federal agencies are masterful wizards smarter than all of their detractors and capable of pulling off a highly successful and elaborate scheme involving many people without leaving behind a trace of evidence
2. Wolves weren't transplanted by WDFW.
I can think of other scenarios.
3. A certain pro-wolf organization that breeds them releases two breeding pairs into the wild to promote conservation
4. Wolf-dog breeders abandon their stock
Of course there isn't going to be hard evidence in either scenario. But the lack of evidence doesn't lead to a conclusion either.
My contention, for which none of these hunt-wa geniuses has been able to provide any credible evidence to the contrary, is that wdfw or other government agencies have not been involved in the transplant of wild wolves into WA.
We get a lot of innuendo and some very cowardly people who admit to being coerced into keepingtheretheir mouths shut by government bureaucrats, but no credible evidence.
This and other discussions are possible without personal attacks on our fellow forum members. And when sarcastically referring to fellow members as geniuses, try to remember to spell correctly so as not to look like a "HuntWA genius" yourself. No problem. I fixed it for you. How about we keep this discussion civil, eh?
Post by: zwickeyman on December 27, 2019, 06:53:38 AM
video dated 7/17/2008 "
They just mis labeled the video is all KFHUNTER
They meant to say " first pack started by them in WA"
Post by: zwickeyman on December 27, 2019, 06:57:02 AM
All you guys that dont believe Wolves had some kind of help. Open your minds and watch the video again and again and try and figure out how it was possible for that video to even happen
Post by: Curly on December 27, 2019, 07:40:03 AM
Funny how cnw claims that was the first wolf pack since the 30's. Who are they fooling with that bs? Anyway, the video does seem to be proof that CNW was involved with releasing wolves.....at least it seems that way. Pretty unlikely to get video like that otherwise.
Post by: boneaddict on December 27, 2019, 07:42:22 AM
Quote
cowardly people who admit to being coerced into keeping there mouths shut by government bureaucrats, but no credible evidence.
Calling me a liar or backhandly insulting me or calling me a coward will get you in trouble very quickly. I don’t even have to invite you over to have you call that to my face. All I have to do is hit a button and your existence here will be erased. Tread lightly keyboard warrior. It’s ok to disagree with me, but insinuating I’m stupid, a liar or a coward won’t be tolerated either personally or by huntwa policy.
Post by: Special T on December 27, 2019, 07:57:31 AM
But everyone knows you dont spend any time in the woods! Nor do you hail from and area that once had massive deer herds, or have friends and family still there! You expect everyone here to recognize your street cred?Quotecowardly people who admit to being coerced into keeping there mouths shut by government bureaucrats, but no credible evidence.
Calling me a liar or backhandly insulting me or calling me a coward will get you in trouble very quickly. I don’t even have to invite you over to have you call that to my face. All I have to do is hit a button and your existence here will be erased. Tread lightly keyboard warrior. It’s ok to disagree with me, but insinuating I’m stupid, a liar or a coward won’t be tolerated either personally or by huntwa policy.
Lol
I'm not sure how much you have to defend yourself. The picture proof of your close proximity to animals is unlike anyone else on this forum. There are a couple that are in proximity but they arnt the wines talking smack.
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Post by: idahohuntr on December 27, 2019, 08:06:30 AM
My comments were very generic. But if we want to discuss forum rules I'd be glad to. I'd like to start with "Unproven Accusations" where you directly accused me of being involved in a felony...the transport and release of wolves. So it's ok for you to accuse me with no evidence of an egregious felony, but I cant make general sarcastic remarks? I may not have been as nice as I could have been but you are really getting into some serious libelous claims when you publicly accuse someone of a felony and you have zero evidence to support such a claim.Quotecowardly people who admit to being coerced into keeping there mouths shut by government bureaucrats, but no credible evidence.
Calling me a liar or backhandly insulting me or calling me a coward will get you in trouble very quickly. I don’t even have to invite you over to have you call that to my face. All I have to do is hit a button and your existence here will be erased. Tread lightly keyboard warrior. It’s ok to disagree with me, but insinuating I’m stupid, a liar or a coward won’t be tolerated either personally or by huntwa policy.
Post by: boneaddict on December 27, 2019, 08:11:34 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on December 27, 2019, 08:12:43 AM
Nice try. :chuckle:Just exposing the hypocrisy. :tup:
Post by: boneaddict on December 27, 2019, 08:13:53 AM
Post by: KFhunter on December 27, 2019, 08:27:03 AM
That video is rather shocking. But it doesn't mean an agency like wdfw or USFWS was complicit in the release of wolves.
Funny how cnw claims that was the first wolf pack since the 30's. Who are they fooling with that bs? Anyway, the video does seem to be proof that CNW was involved with releasing wolves.....at least it seems that way. Pretty unlikely to get video like that otherwise.
I don't find it shoking that CNW may have had a hand in a wolf release, but I do find it shocking that you could think WDFW wouldn't know about it.
They're joined at the hip, then and now, WDFW got in bed with them and spooned.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 27, 2019, 08:41:33 AM
My comments were very generic. But if we want to discuss forum rules I'd be glad to. I'd like to start with "Unproven Accusations" where you directly accused me of being involved in a felony...the transport and release of wolves. So it's ok for you to accuse me with no evidence of an egregious felony, but I cant make general sarcastic remarks? I may not have been as nice as I could have been but you are really getting into some serious libelous claims when you publicly accuse someone of a felony and you have zero evidence to support such a claim.Quotecowardly people who admit to being coerced into keeping there mouths shut by government bureaucrats, but no credible evidence.
Calling me a liar or backhandly insulting me or calling me a coward will get you in trouble very quickly. I don’t even have to invite you over to have you call that to my face. All I have to do is hit a button and your existence here will be erased. Tread lightly keyboard warrior. It’s ok to disagree with me, but insinuating I’m stupid, a liar or a coward won’t be tolerated either personally or by huntwa policy.
Not only were your comments specific, not generic, they reveal an innate loathing for HuntWA forum members. This is not the first time you've addressed members in such a way, and until your membership is nuked, it won't be the last. Because you demonstrably hold your fellow members in such low regard, I have to ask you: why are you even here? Bone and I don't agree on this topic and others, yet we choose to disagree while continuing to show mutual respect for each other as hunters, affected residents, concerned conservationists, and fellow forum members. If your comments were born of mutual respect, we wouldn't even be discussing this.
Post by: Curly on December 27, 2019, 10:18:47 AM
That video is rather shocking. But it doesn't mean an agency like wdfw or USFWS was complicit in the release of wolves.
Funny how cnw claims that was the first wolf pack since the 30's. Who are they fooling with that bs? Anyway, the video does seem to be proof that CNW was involved with releasing wolves.....at least it seems that way. Pretty unlikely to get video like that otherwise.
I don't find it shoking that CNW may have had a hand in a wolf release, but I do find it shocking that you could think WDFW wouldn't know about it.
They're joined at the hip, then and now, WDFW got in bed with them and spooned.
Okay, let's assume it's true that CNW and WDFW were in bed together and made the wolf release happen. Who at wdfw knew about it? The director? Biologists? Commissioners? Just seems like word would get leaked out. I could see possibly an employee of wdfw doing something on their own but for the agency to sanction something like that doesn't make sense.
I'm open to admitting I'm wrong about WDFW either releasing wolves or helping/knowing about it. So far I'm not convinced, but the CNW video does make me question things even more.
Post by: Ridgeratt on December 27, 2019, 10:22:15 AM
https://www.conservationnw.org/meet-our-staff/jay-shepherd/
Jay Shepherd
Wolf Program Lead
2084207832 X jshepherd@conservationnw.org
Jay coordinates our Wolf Program, including managing our Range Rider Pilot Project and working with local ranchers and conservationists in northeast Washington. Dr. Shepherd has a long history in wildlife research and management with state and federal agencies in western North America, most recently immersed in wolf recovery and reducing wildlife conflicts in Washington. Jay grew up in Walla Walla, Washington where he worked on his family’s wheat farm and cattle ranch into his twenties. As a biologist, Jay worked with amphibians, ungulates, predators, seabirds, and raptors, as well as shrub-steppe and old-growth forest habitat. He has a B.S. in Wildlife Resources, an M.S. in Wildlife Biology, and a Ph.D. in Natural Resources from the University of Idaho. Jay loves the landscape and people of northeastern Washington.
Coincidence?
Post by: KFhunter on December 27, 2019, 10:27:50 AM
Post by: buckfvr on December 27, 2019, 11:11:50 AM
That video is rather shocking. But it doesn't mean an agency like wdfw or USFWS was complicit in the release of wolves. "
"Doesnt exactly exonerate them either.......buckfvr"
Post by: Henrydog on December 27, 2019, 01:00:30 PM
https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,9240.0.html was posted a few weeks later
"The re-appearance of a resident wolf pack in Washington is evidence of a functioning ecosystem and good news for those working to preserve the state's biodiversity," said WDFW Director Jeff Koenings, Ph.D.
"At the same time, we recognize some residents have concerns about the re-entry of wolves in Washington. This discovery demonstrates the need to continue our efforts to finalize a state wolf conservation and management plan," Koenings said.
The two wolves, a male and female, were temporarily captured and radio-collared by wolf experts from Idaho Department of Fish and Game and the Nez Perce tribe, assisted by biologists with the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) and U.S. Forest Service. Tissue and hair samples were collected from the two animals and submitted for DNA testing to confirm that the animals were pure wolves.
Preliminary results from additional genetic testing indicate the two wolves likely originated from British Columbia-Alberta populations. More comprehensive testing is currently being conducted to determine more specific information. "
So the Wolves just skipped Idaho and NE Washington went over 3 mountain ranges, crossed the Columbia River but stopped at the Cascades?
Look at the language use back then by WDFW it is different that the verabge they use today. Also why would Idaho DFG have to come here to place radio colors?
Post by: bigmacc on December 27, 2019, 02:50:51 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on December 27, 2019, 03:25:51 PM
Post by: KFhunter on December 27, 2019, 03:29:20 PM
dispirsing wolves are driven by a desire to find a mate, not due to habitat or prey base. If there's no humpin, they keep on truckin'
but....if you seed an area with wolves, the disperses will have a reason to stop
Post by: jackelope on December 27, 2019, 05:16:39 PM
You can have perfect habitat for wolves, but if there's no other wolves they won't stay.
dispirsing wolves are driven by a desire to find a mate, not due to habitat or prey base. If there's no humpin, they keep on truckin'
but....if you seed an area with wolves, the disperses will have a reason to stop
Are you implying here that wolves don't move on on their own into new territories and form new packs? A sub adult gets the boot or otherwise leaves and goes off on it's own?? Or do they all stay together in one big happy family because they're breeding and form packs of like 20-30-40-50 wolves?
Post by: KFhunter on December 27, 2019, 05:22:34 PM
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Post by: jackelope on December 27, 2019, 05:24:31 PM
Not like were all led to believe, no
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How then?
Post by: idahohuntr on December 27, 2019, 05:28:10 PM
You can have perfect habitat for wolves, but if there's no other wolves they won't stay.So your theory is the only places wolves will establish new territory is if someone has gone in advance and planted wolves? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your use of "seeding"? Otherwise, you seem to be implying outside a couple release locations in central Idaho and YNP wolf migration and establishment has only been accomplished via a massive government conspiracy (for which no evidence has ever surfaced)...and I don't think even you are suggesting such a massive illegal conspiracy has occurred...but maybe you are?
dispirsing wolves are driven by a desire to find a mate, not due to habitat or prey base. If there's no humpin, they keep on truckin'
but....if you seed an area with wolves, the disperses will have a reason to stop
Post by: no.cen.wa on December 27, 2019, 05:49:46 PM
Post by: KFhunter on December 27, 2019, 06:27:40 PM
You can have perfect habitat for wolves, but if there's no other wolves they won't stay.Are you implying here that wolves don't move on on their own into new territories and form new packs? A sub adult gets the boot or otherwise leaves and goes off on it's own?? Or do they all stay together in one big happy family because they're breeding and form packs of like 20-30-40-50 wolves?
dispersing wolves are driven by a desire to find a mate, not due to habitat or prey base.
If there's no humpin, they keep on truckin'
but....if you seed an area with wolves, the disperses will have a reason to stop.
Not like were all led to believe, noHow then?
So your theory is the only places wolves will establish new territory is if someone has gone in advance and planted wolves? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your use of "seeding"? Otherwise, you seem to be implying outside a couple release locations in central Idaho and YNP wolf migration and establishment has only been accomplished via a massive government conspiracy (for which no evidence has ever surfaced)...and I don't think even you are suggesting such a massive illegal conspiracy has occurred...but maybe you are?
My theory is wolf expansion is like a forest fire, you have the breeding pair/pack and from there the little spot fires jump out from the main fire and start their own brush fires, those fires grow and merge back into one big fire with each packs territory touching the next one. Then more little spot fires jump out with the next breeding season then merge, rinse repeat.
but do I think that an ember will jump 300 miles and start a whole new wildfire?
it could, if conditions were just right and there was something to land on, like another wolf seeking a mate too. The closer you get to existing wolf pack the faster new packs would emerge, further away you get the more difficult for those dispersing wolves to find their mate and settle. So what you'd get is a wolf travelling 1000's of miles for years on end looking for a mate (OR-7) scenting up an area you want a dispenser to find would be important if you wanted to establish wolves.
If someone wanted to speed that process up and cover a whole state in less than 10 years then you seed the state with half tame wolves for those long dispersers to find, or you just capture a collared wolf from idaho and drop it in the methow with its mate in an enclosure until the den is made and pups whelped, then remove the fence.
Now that the methow has its wolf pack (talking back in 2008) the population would/and did, expand rapidly from there, and contiguously, from that new "fire"
We've all been led to believe that wolves from BC and Idaho migrated naturally into WA and within 10 years populated an entire state jumping big distances in doing so, I find that difficult to believe.
They don't just take off and find a mate and relocate 100's of miles away without help, certainly not this fast.
Or else other states would have been populated just as fast, or faster, with more abundant game, like Colorado. Imagine the "brush fire" there :o
So my conclusion is, Colorado wasn't seeded, wolves weren't transplanted there. And Washington's first wolf pack should have been in 113, or perhaps 142 even.
Post by: hughjorgan on December 27, 2019, 07:28:08 PM
You can have perfect habitat for wolves, but if there's no other wolves they won't stay.Are you implying here that wolves don't move on on their own into new territories and form new packs? A sub adult gets the boot or otherwise leaves and goes off on it's own?? Or do they all stay together in one big happy family because they're breeding and form packs of like 20-30-40-50 wolves?
dispersing wolves are driven by a desire to find a mate, not due to habitat or prey base.
If there's no humpin, they keep on truckin'
but....if you seed an area with wolves, the disperses will have a reason to stop.Not like were all led to believe, noHow then?So your theory is the only places wolves will establish new territory is if someone has gone in advance and planted wolves? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your use of "seeding"? Otherwise, you seem to be implying outside a couple release locations in central Idaho and YNP wolf migration and establishment has only been accomplished via a massive government conspiracy (for which no evidence has ever surfaced)...and I don't think even you are suggesting such a massive illegal conspiracy has occurred...but maybe you are?
My theory is wolf expansion is like a forest fire, you have the breeding pair/pack and from there the little spot fires jump out from the main fire and start their own brush fires, those fires grow and merge back into one big fire with each packs territory touching the next one. Then more little spot fires jump out with the next breeding season then merge, rinse repeat.
but do I think that an ember will jump 300 miles and start a whole new wildfire?
it could, if conditions were just right and there was something to land on, like another wolf seeking a mate too. The closer you get to existing wolf pack the faster new packs would emerge, further away you get the more difficult for those dispersing wolves to find their mate and settle. So what you'd get is a wolf travelling 1000's of miles for years on end looking for a mate (OR-7) scenting up an area you want a dispenser to find would be important if you wanted to establish wolves.
If someone wanted to speed that process up and cover a whole state in less than 10 years then you seed the state with half tame wolves for those long dispersers to find, or you just capture a collared wolf from idaho and drop it in the methow with its mate in an enclosure until the den is made and pups whelped, then remove the fence.
Now that the methow has its wolf pack (talking back in 2008) the population would/and did, expand rapidly from there, and contiguously, from that new "fire"
We've all been led to believe that wolves from BC and Idaho migrated naturally into WA and within 10 years populated an entire state jumping big distances in doing so, I find that difficult to believe.
They don't just take off and find a mate and relocate 100's of miles away without help, certainly not this fast.
Or else other states would have been populated just as fast, or faster, with more abundant game, like Colorado. Imagine the "brush fire" there :o
So my conclusion is, Colorado wasn't seeded, wolves weren't transplanted there. And Washington's first wolf pack should have been in 113, or perhaps 142 even.
Well said
Post by: idahohuntr on December 27, 2019, 07:55:58 PM
A few problems with all of your speculation...First, lets start with the "first" confirmed wolf pack in 2008 - where you and others are questioning how this isolated distant spot was the "first" confirmed pack in WA state. You are familiar with the Methow and I presume you are familiar with 113/Selkirks. Where do you think it would be easier to detect a pack of wolves via the state confirmation criteria of male/female/pups...the Methow or Selkirks? Given the criteria and the terrain/cover/accessibility do you think its possible the first "confirmed" wolf pack in WA might not have been the actual first established wolf pack in WA? I'd bet a lot of money that 9-5 bureaucrats were able to confirm the first pack in the Methow, but there were probably already many wolves in the Selkirks but it was more difficult to detect/establish a confirmed wolf pack by state criteria.You can have perfect habitat for wolves, but if there's no other wolves they won't stay.Are you implying here that wolves don't move on on their own into new territories and form new packs? A sub adult gets the boot or otherwise leaves and goes off on it's own?? Or do they all stay together in one big happy family because they're breeding and form packs of like 20-30-40-50 wolves?
dispersing wolves are driven by a desire to find a mate, not due to habitat or prey base.
If there's no humpin, they keep on truckin'
but....if you seed an area with wolves, the disperses will have a reason to stop.Not like were all led to believe, noHow then?So your theory is the only places wolves will establish new territory is if someone has gone in advance and planted wolves? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your use of "seeding"? Otherwise, you seem to be implying outside a couple release locations in central Idaho and YNP wolf migration and establishment has only been accomplished via a massive government conspiracy (for which no evidence has ever surfaced)...and I don't think even you are suggesting such a massive illegal conspiracy has occurred...but maybe you are?
My theory is wolf expansion is like a forest fire, you have the breeding pair/pack and from there the little spot fires jump out from the main fire and start their own brush fires, those fires grow and merge back into one big fire with each packs territory touching the next one. Then more little spot fires jump out with the next breeding season then merge, rinse repeat.
but do I think that an ember will jump 300 miles and start a whole new wildfire?
it could, if conditions were just right and there was something to land on, like another wolf seeking a mate too. The closer you get to existing wolf pack the faster new packs would emerge, further away you get the more difficult for those dispersing wolves to find their mate and settle. So what you'd get is a wolf travelling 1000's of miles for years on end looking for a mate (OR-7) scenting up an area you want a dispenser to find would be important if you wanted to establish wolves.
If someone wanted to speed that process up and cover a whole state in less than 10 years then you seed the state with half tame wolves for those long dispersers to find, or you just capture a collared wolf from idaho and drop it in the methow with its mate in an enclosure until the den is made and pups whelped, then remove the fence.
Now that the methow has its wolf pack (talking back in 2008) the population would/and did, expand rapidly from there, and contiguously, from that new "fire"
We've all been led to believe that wolves from BC and Idaho migrated naturally into WA and within 10 years populated an entire state jumping big distances in doing so, I find that difficult to believe.
They don't just take off and find a mate and relocate 100's of miles away without help, certainly not this fast.
Or else other states would have been populated just as fast, or faster, with more abundant game, like Colorado. Imagine the "brush fire" there :o
So my conclusion is, Colorado wasn't seeded, wolves weren't transplanted there. And Washington's first wolf pack should have been in 113, or perhaps 142 even.
Second - you question the ability of wolf populations to grow exponentially and expand rapidly in a decade. I disagree strongly with such a statement - and nearly all of my Idahoan family and my many Montana and Wyoming friends would kindly disagree with your assertion as well. From reintroduction to 10 years later we all saw massive growth and expansion of wolves. Again, unless you are now pushing an almost unimaginably complex and massive conspiracy releasing "seed" wolves all over the Rocky Mountain states (except of course in CO and UT for some unexplained reason) your denial of wolves rapidly expanding in WA just doesn't hold any water.
Third, and what I mentioned above, you describe all this expansion being done by seeding and state it obviously wasn't done in CO because they don't have a lot of wolves. So why was it done (this "seeding") in ID, MT, WY, OR, WA but not UT or CO?? Why did this illegal ring decide not to do those states? Or were their game departments just not on board with the whole conspiracy because they were unconvinced that 5 state agencies illegally engaging in mass translocation of wolves could remain the secret that it has? Do you think those state agencies (UT and CO) now regret their decision now that its been 20+ years of multi-state wolf seeding and not one shred of credible evidence has ever surfaced to expose this massive, illegal operation? I'll tell you what else I find odd specific to WA...it seems every game warden that retires these days writes a book about their career and many of them are pretty critical of their former agency (WDFW)...but not one disgruntled employee has come forward from WDFW (and there are many) to report this massively illegal scheme??
You have an intriguing imagination. I'm gonna have to stick with the simple explanation - wolves expanded rapidly from their reintroduction sites to occupy suitable wolf habitat in non-uniform patterns. Detection and confirmation by various state criteria doesn't always match on the ground reality and so a methow confirmation before an official selkirks confirmation is not surprising or all that meaningful. Last, migration through relatively poor wolf habitat reduces the speed and numbers which establish in new areas (e.g., Colorado, other parts of Idaho etc.). Logical, reasonable, fact-based...but I'll give you this, its a heck of lot more boring than your theory involving a massive multi state conspiracy that includes more felonies than a 100 years of mob family activity.
Post by: bigmacc on December 27, 2019, 08:03:02 PM
You can have perfect habitat for wolves, but if there's no other wolves they won't stay.Are you implying here that wolves don't move on on their own into new territories and form new packs? A sub adult gets the boot or otherwise leaves and goes off on it's own?? Or do they all stay together in one big happy family because they're breeding and form packs of like 20-30-40-50 wolves?
dispersing wolves are driven by a desire to find a mate, not due to habitat or prey base.
If there's no humpin, they keep on truckin'
but....if you seed an area with wolves, the disperses will have a reason to stop.Not like were all led to believe, noHow then?So your theory is the only places wolves will establish new territory is if someone has gone in advance and planted wolves? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your use of "seeding"? Otherwise, you seem to be implying outside a couple release locations in central Idaho and YNP wolf migration and establishment has only been accomplished via a massive government conspiracy (for which no evidence has ever surfaced)...and I don't think even you are suggesting such a massive illegal conspiracy has occurred...but maybe you are?
My theory is wolf expansion is like a forest fire, you have the breeding pair/pack and from there the little spot fires jump out from the main fire and start their own brush fires, those fires grow and merge back into one big fire with each packs territory touching the next one. Then more little spot fires jump out with the next breeding season then merge, rinse repeat.
but do I think that an ember will jump 300 miles and start a whole new wildfire?
it could, if conditions were just right and there was something to land on, like another wolf seeking a mate too. The closer you get to existing wolf pack the faster new packs would emerge, further away you get the more difficult for those dispersing wolves to find their mate and settle. So what you'd get is a wolf travelling 1000's of miles for years on end looking for a mate (OR-7) scenting up an area you want a dispenser to find would be important if you wanted to establish wolves.
If someone wanted to speed that process up and cover a whole state in less than 10 years then you seed the state with half tame wolves for those long dispersers to find, or you just capture a collared wolf from idaho and drop it in the methow with its mate in an enclosure until the den is made and pups whelped, then remove the fence.
Now that the methow has its wolf pack (talking back in 2008) the population would/and did, expand rapidly from there, and contiguously, from that new "fire"
We've all been led to believe that wolves from BC and Idaho migrated naturally into WA and within 10 years populated an entire state jumping big distances in doing so, I find that difficult to believe.
They don't just take off and find a mate and relocate 100's of miles away without help, certainly not this fast.
Or else other states would have been populated just as fast, or faster, with more abundant game, like Colorado. Imagine the "brush fire" there :o
So my conclusion is, Colorado wasn't seeded, wolves weren't transplanted there. And Washington's first wolf pack should have been in 113, or perhaps 142 even.
There you go :tup: to KFhunter......IMHO, AND my Methow friends from years ago, in SOME instances, in SOME places and during SOME time frames, "THEY HAD TO HAVE NEEDED HELP"......It really is ok to think outside the box idahohntr, it doesn't mean there was a conspiracy or anyone is wearing funny hats. There are reasons people are not told the whole truth but just bits and pieces. Eventually everything comes out in the wash and I,m sure this will be one of those times. It may be next year or the next decade but either way, no moving, OR, yep, we moved some, it will come out. Folks that believe like you, folks that you think are "wearing the hats" and folks that think its a little of both (migrating naturally and being moved), IMO will ALL be right when the smoke clears... :twocents:
Post by: KFhunter on December 27, 2019, 08:06:09 PM
We've had native wolves all along, wolves now made extinct or severely threatened by non-native wolves.
They assert that, not me.
Secondly, I do believe your family seen rapid expansion in Idaho and Montana, which just goes to prove my theory, Idaho and Montana were planted with wolves, that isnt in dispute.
Those packs where planted all across the state in desired wolf habitat areas, not in Boise ID. and not in east montana. The wolves being spaced apart like that set the stage for a very rapid expansion.
WA did not have wolves planted according to you, therefore such rapid expansion would not be possible like it went down.
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Post by: Buckhunter24 on December 27, 2019, 08:14:53 PM
Post by: RB on December 27, 2019, 08:16:34 PM
550 miles
How far can wolves travel? Wolves may travel 10 to 30 miles each day in search of food. Dispersing wolves, those leaving packs in search of their own mate, have been known to travel distances of 550 miles away form their home territory.
Wether or not this is gospel I do not know, but if it is half true say 250 miles, Seattle is 250 miles from Kamloops BC . With that being said is it too far fetched that they came to the NE corner on their own? I have not read all 13 pages of this thread so it may have been posted prior.
Post by: Buckhunter24 on December 27, 2019, 08:19:37 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on December 27, 2019, 08:35:09 PM
Oh I know the methow isnt WA's first wolf pack, I was just using WDFW and CNW info.WDFW "Confirmed" the "first" wolf pack, by state criteria, in that location. I don't think WDFW staff would dispute what I'm saying...the first confirmed pack was very likely not the actual first pack (or packs) in WA. So I don't think its accurate to say you are just repeating their claim - because I don't think they would disagree with what I'm saying. Its sort of like their minimum counts...they are always very clear they know there are more wolves, the minimum count was just the absolute count they personally observed.
We've had native wolves all along, wolves now made extinct or severely threatened by non-native wolves.
They assert that, not me.
Secondly, I do believe your family seen rapid expansion in Idaho and Montana, which just goes to prove my theory, Idaho and Montana were planted with wolves, that isnt in dispute.
Those packs where planted all across the state in desired wolf habitat areas, not in Boise ID. and not in east montana. The wolves being spaced apart like that set the stage for a very rapid expansion.
WA did not have wolves planted according to you, therefore such rapid expansion would not be possible like it went down.
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There were not wolves planted all across Idaho and Montana...pretty specific release locations...and all of them were hundreds of miles from where I've hunted way up in Northern Idaho...so unless they announced the original release locations and then inexplicably started releasing them all over the state but decided to keep those locations super secret...your theory still doesn't hold water. Remember...POTUS showed up to personally release wolves, it wasn't any secret.
And last - nope, completely disagree. Wolves don't have to be sprinkled or seeded all across these habitats to rapidly expand. Good habitat and prey, and those suckers are off to the races. They clearly can expand rapidly on their own just as they did in Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming.
Post by: Utah on December 27, 2019, 08:51:36 PM
The wolves only had to walk across the Canadian border. No reason to think they needed any help to get into Washington.So here is the rub. If they were so inclined to come from just across the border, why did the migrate from the Eastern border in a westerly fashion? Especially since they could have done so down the cascades so easily?
The whole thing stinks which is why I'll bet there are a lot of people who belive the department or feds had a hand in it.
They came outta Idaho too. Which prolly came from Canada or Montana. Saw two wolves in the early 90's on the eastside of priest lake. Grizz were there too.
They did come down southerly via the cascades.
Post by: idahohuntr on December 27, 2019, 08:55:53 PM
Idahohunter, what is your opinion of CNW? What is your opinion of former wdfw employees working for them? Are you familiar with their approach regarding natural resources?CNW - Not my cup of tea...I'm sure they have some decent staff and I'm sure they have staff and members I'd not be well aligned with. They claim to support hunting but I do not believe its a core concern of theirs. One of their staff posts here occasionally and he seems reasonable.
My opinion of WDFW employees (former and current) is not real positive - its probably one of the worst run/managed/operated state f&w agencies in the west - so who they go work for once they leave WDFW isn't anything I care about. I'm not that familiar with CNW's approach regarding natural resources - they probably have more influence on wolf issues than many other E. Wa orgs and citizens and I'm sure they've done projects that are beneficial to fish and wildlife...but I'm sure they have a lot of issues, projects, positions I would vehemently disagree with.
The real question...what's a guy in St. Maries worried about CNW for? Not many CNW events in your neck of the woods! Used to buy a lot of motorcycles and chainsaws from Charlies saw shop - I know its got a new name now, not sure if Eddie (Charlie's boy) still owns it or if he sold though?
Post by: KFhunter on December 27, 2019, 10:06:04 PM
Mt they closed some great areas used to ride too, fish creek. Epic area
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Post by: Mudman on December 27, 2019, 11:10:37 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 28, 2019, 04:26:05 AM
Post by: Bango skank on December 28, 2019, 06:39:51 AM
Don't have to go to the old timers to get that info
Also, being an "ol timer" doesnt automatically mean you know what youre talking about. My grandma says all kinds of crazy crap.
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 28, 2019, 07:09:01 AM
Post by: borntoslay on December 28, 2019, 07:09:51 AM
Exactly, alot of older guys I know are full of sh*/.Don't have to go to the old timers to get that info
Also, being an "ol timer" doesnt automatically mean you know what youre talking about. My grandma says all kinds of crazy crap.
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Post by: Bango skank on December 28, 2019, 07:12:36 AM
Exactly, alot of older guys I know are full of sh*/.Don't have to go to the old timers to get that info
Also, being an "ol timer" doesnt automatically mean you know what youre talking about. My grandma says all kinds of crazy crap.
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If youre an idiot when youre 20, and an idiot when youre 40, youll still be an idiot when youre 70
Post by: borntoslay on December 28, 2019, 07:24:34 AM
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Post by: KFhunter on December 28, 2019, 08:17:20 AM
canis lupis familiaris = domestic dogs
canis lupis lycaon = grey wolf from back east, Michigan area
canis lupis fuscus = Cascades wolf, listed as extinct, yet old timers say they've seen them, brown coloring, smaller wolves
"grey wolf" can mean a lot of things if you drop off the subspecies designation.
canis = dog
lupis = wolf
"wolf dog"
Post by: teanawayslayer on December 28, 2019, 08:25:43 AM
Post by: Bango skank on December 28, 2019, 08:35:38 AM
Post by: boneaddict on December 28, 2019, 09:04:41 AM
I couldnt tell you the difference if there is one. Big is big. Face to face, pretty incredible machine.
Post by: h20hunter on December 28, 2019, 09:08:50 AM
Post by: Curly on December 28, 2019, 09:09:03 AM
canis lupis occidentalis = our new wolves, very large subspecies of grey wolf.
canis lupis familiaris = domestic dogs
canis lupis lycaon = grey wolf from back east, Michigan area
canis lupis fuscus = Cascades wolf, listed as extinct, yet old timers say they've seen them, brown coloring, smaller wolves
"grey wolf" can mean a lot of things if you drop off the subspecies designation.
canis = dog
lupis = wolf
"wolf dog"
And from post #59, timber wolf = canis lupus irremotus. The article said they are much smaller at 75 to 85 pounds.
Post by: KFhunter on December 28, 2019, 09:09:20 AM
I find it funny how "old timers" sightings are always taken for granted as credible. Look at how many people right now say they see wolves and grizz and dont know what the hell theyre talking about. These same people will be "old timers" one day.
pick and choose your old timers huh? I don't have any old timers telling me there was wolves in them thar hills 20,30, 40 years ago.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 28, 2019, 09:11:21 AM
Its just a designation generally noting someone who has been around the block a time or two, experience, been there done that. Just as there is a designation for young pup, wet behind the ears, tenderfoot, greenhorn, etc. There most certainly are idiots that become old....I know as i become older, I've become a bigger idiot. I'm actually working on it.
I couldnt tell you the difference if there is one. Big is big. Face to face, pretty incredible machine.
Post by: jackelope on December 28, 2019, 09:26:09 AM
If any of ya talked with the Ol timers who were here in W Wa ya would know they claim these are NOT the same wolves. I know not many people to talk to as they have now passed but the Timber wolf was not the same. Grey wolf is larger and more aggressive. Invasive species as far as Im concerned.
Pretty sure that’s not in question either.
Post by: jackelope on December 28, 2019, 09:30:44 AM
50 miles? 100 miles? If a wolf was in Twisp and was looking for a 100 mile day to stretch his legs, he could almost end up at Microsoft.
This is a 75 mile radius as the crow flies.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191228/2495eec70c117b74e2260987a5db0f35.jpg)
Post by: boneaddict on December 28, 2019, 09:43:16 AM
Quote
Twisp and was looking for a 100 mile day to stretch his legs, he could almost end up at Microsoft.Quit teasing me :chuckle:
Post by: jackelope on December 28, 2019, 09:47:15 AM
QuoteTwisp and was looking for a 100 mile day to stretch his legs, he could almost end up at Microsoft.Quit teasing me :chuckle:
Well they were close. There was a trail cam pic of the wolf in Snoqualmie and the one smooshed on i-90.
Post by: Bango skank on December 28, 2019, 10:17:48 AM
Post by: jackelope on December 28, 2019, 10:18:02 AM
Why would it stop at microsoft? it won't find a mate there, so it'll keep going. like OR-7 did, that wolf went over 1000 miles before it found a female.
If there were no wolves in WA then it would travel the entire bredth of the state to find a mate, then they would find a spot to make a pack.
They aren't going to keep traveling many 100's of miles together and go: "oh, the methow looks tasty, lets go there!...can you pull that up on your google maps?"
No but year over year, there will be new packs in new territories that will have new dispersing animals that disperse at 1-2 years old. It won’t take long for them to fan out 200 miles, especially when they’ll take off at a year old.
And this state is not very big as the crow flies. They don’t use the highways to comprise those 50 mile jaunts.
Post by: KFhunter on December 28, 2019, 10:24:18 AM
This is why two desperate females in Ione, WA started mating up with sheep dogs and hanging around town, even though they were in their home territory of the Ruby pack.
They needed dispersing males from other packs to find em and lead them to a new territory not far away and begin carving out their home range, as he gets bigger and stronger the nearby males get older his range will grow.
This is why having a pack established in the methow "all of a sudden" with no contiguous wolf packs nearby makes no since to me.
A male is not going to drag a female 100's of miles to "dispirse", he don't need to. They'll land at the fringe of her pack she came from.
That's why my snarky google maps comment, they don't know what lies 50 or 100 or 300 miles away, there's no thought process "Oh I bet it's a good spot 300 miles west of here"
Post by: boneaddict on December 28, 2019, 10:27:31 AM
Quote
They don’t use the highways to comprise those 50 mile jaunts.Well, isnt that the debate. :)
Still looking for the millenial trigger.....I'm still curious why Banff wolves or others didnt have the same rapid of "recolonization" prior. Someone could google if they'd like, but what is the distance from Twisp to Banff versus Jellystone. Millenial wolves only travel one direction?
Post by: KFhunter on December 28, 2019, 10:30:26 AM
Post by: jackelope on December 28, 2019, 10:33:22 AM
She has the home range, he's the interloper, he'll land where she is, and she won't be all that far from her momma.
This is why two desperate females in Ione, WA started mating up with sheep dogs and hanging around town, even though they were in their home territory of the Ruby pack.
They needed dispersing males from other packs to find em and lead them to a new territory not far away and begin carving out their home range, as he gets bigger and stronger the nearby males get older his range will grow.
This is why having a pack established in the methow "all of a sudden" with no contiguous wolf packs nearby makes no since to me.
A male is not going to drag a female 100's of miles to "dispirse", he don't need to. They'll land at the fringe of her pack she came from.
That's why my snarky google maps comment, they don't know what lies 50 or 100 or 300 miles away, there's no thought process "Oh I bet it's a good spot 300 miles west of here"
You’re saying females don’t disperse?
Post by: jackelope on December 28, 2019, 10:33:59 AM
QuoteThey don’t use the highways to comprise those 50 mile jaunts.Well, isnt that the debate. :)
It was supposed to be more of a joke.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191228/e9c509eff82314dd90dd93ef4c3679ed.jpg)
Post by: KFhunter on December 28, 2019, 10:36:46 AM
Or is that just a sub species eurasion wolf thing?
Siberia, Russia packs merge into super packs of 70+ wolves and go on a rampage, we know its a food trigger, but can we look for signs that the typical pack social structure is about to break down and wolves enter into this super pack thing?
This one is epic
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1354445/Super-pack-400-wolves-kill-30-horses-just-days-remote-Russian-village.html
400 wolf superpack???? Not sure I believe there was truly 400 wolves, but dayummmm...could something like that happen here?
Post by: KFhunter on December 28, 2019, 10:39:51 AM
She has the home range, he's the interloper, he'll land where she is, and she won't be all that far from her momma.
This is why two desperate females in Ione, WA started mating up with sheep dogs and hanging around town, even though they were in their home territory of the Ruby pack.
They needed dispersing males from other packs to find em and lead them to a new territory not far away and begin carving out their home range, as he gets bigger and stronger the nearby males get older his range will grow.
This is why having a pack established in the methow "all of a sudden" with no contiguous wolf packs nearby makes no since to me.
A male is not going to drag a female 100's of miles to "dispirse", he don't need to. They'll land at the fringe of her pack she came from.
That's why my snarky google maps comment, they don't know what lies 50 or 100 or 300 miles away, there's no thought process "Oh I bet it's a good spot 300 miles west of here"
You’re saying females don’t disperse?
speaking in absolutes? Nothing is absolute... yes they'll disperse, but its the males who do it more often and travel further.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 28, 2019, 10:43:11 AM
Post by: zwickeyman on December 28, 2019, 10:44:38 AM
Total uneducated opinion here
I believe the more food available the bigger the packs get
Post by: KFhunter on December 28, 2019, 10:45:03 AM
IIRC--Right, the Utah wolf I think was female. Went from Montana to Southern Utah.
was she in a cage? :chuckle:
:peep:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 28, 2019, 10:52:26 AM
In a box truck from U-Howl.IIRC--Right, the Utah wolf I think was female. Went from Montana to Southern Utah.
was she in a cage? :chuckle:
:peep:
Post by: KFhunter on December 28, 2019, 10:52:36 AM
5 years ago if I had this vote I think it would be less than 20%
I think what's changed to precipitate that 50% swing in vote is a huge and growing mistrust of WDFW, which is why I started this poll in the first place.
on a side note:
I could care less how the wolves got here and I've said so over and over and over throughout the years here on HW.
The wolves were going to come, either with help and fast, or very slow, or very fast without help. It matters not. I'm actually in favor of a sped up process
that way at least we can have our pain and get to dealing with it sooner. A slow progression of wolves will just mean some communities suffer much longer than others.
*IF* the wolves did indeed have help NO ONE is ever going to be held accountable for it.
If the wolves did naturally disperse to Washington, so be it, just goes to show how important management is going to be going forward.
If they can colonize almost an entire state and go from nearly zero to what we have now with no help whatsoever??? ....then holy smokes we're in for it!
and you can bet if I had evidence that wolves were transplanted illegally, I would be howling about it. I've got none, zero, zip, zilch.
Post by: zwickeyman on December 28, 2019, 10:57:37 AM
I do know for a fact of this incident and I'm not going to answer to any one on here so I dont care if you call B.S.
I think it was 2006-2007. I had my son with me and we were deer hunting NE of Chewelah. We got pulled over by a female Game Officer. She checked our licenses and guns and all were good. I brought up Wolves in Idaho and was blown away with how much she loved Wolves. She said she was part of some of the Wolf releases in Idaho and how great it was and how Wolves are not the viscous animals people think they are. Then she said
" She was also going to be soon involved in the release of Wolves in WA"
I told her she was a #@$R$# and had no clue what Wolves really are and what they do. She did not appreciate my candid response for sure
Post by: kentrek on December 28, 2019, 11:08:23 AM
Or is the methow the greenies back yard :o :sry:
Just a thought
Post by: zwickeyman on December 28, 2019, 11:13:25 AM
Post by: KFhunter on December 28, 2019, 11:14:29 AM
If the greenies are involved with a wolf transplant because they love them so much then why would they plant them on the east side of the state where they would never get to see or enjoy them ?? Seems awfully selfless for the most selfish people in the world :dunno:
Or is the methow the greenies back yard :o :sry:
Just a thought
talk about hitting the nail on the head
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 28, 2019, 11:15:20 AM
Post by: KFhunter on December 28, 2019, 11:16:08 AM
They don't wan't them in their main backyards, just in the backyards of their vacation homes.
BAM!
Post by: KFhunter on December 28, 2019, 11:20:03 AM
Post by: LDennis24 on December 28, 2019, 11:20:38 AM
Post by: buckfvr on December 28, 2019, 11:23:01 AM
My cousin took video of 21 in a pack up the Little Wood river in Idaho the winter before it was opened up for hunting. They were working together killing the deer wintering there. pretty brutal.
Total uneducated opinion here
I believe the more food available the bigger the packs get
I also believe the same as I have seen evidence of ALL predators being in abundance where prey was profound.
Post by: Buckhunter24 on December 28, 2019, 11:29:48 AM
Idahohunter, what is your opinion of CNW? What is your opinion of former wdfw employees working for them? Are you familiar with their approach regarding natural resources?CNW - Not my cup of tea...I'm sure they have some decent staff and I'm sure they have staff and members I'd not be well aligned with. They claim to support hunting but I do not believe its a core concern of theirs. One of their staff posts here occasionally and he seems reasonable.
My opinion of WDFW employees (former and current) is not real positive - its probably one of the worst run/managed/operated state f&w agencies in the west - so who they go work for once they leave WDFW isn't anything I care about. I'm not that familiar with CNW's approach regarding natural resources - they probably have more influence on wolf issues than many other E. Wa orgs and citizens and I'm sure they've done projects that are beneficial to fish and wildlife...but I'm sure they have a lot of issues, projects, positions I would vehemently disagree with.
The real question...what's a guy in St. Maries worried about CNW for? Not many CNW events in your neck of the woods! Used to buy a lot of motorcycles and chainsaws from Charlies saw shop - I know its got a new name now, not sure if Eddie (Charlie's boy) still owns it or if he sold though?
I move around the inland for work. Have spent a lot of time in a lot of areas from tonasket to kalispell and as far south as cascade the last couple decades.
I am biased on the subject, I dislike the impact of wolves on ungulates because I like hunting. So I am sure I am looking for something to blame it on, but there are some things that dont fully add up to me.
What is the reason for the sudden expansion of the wolves territories and populations? Its established that wolves will travel many miles, so why werent they exploding in population in NE Wa prior to recent years? There is no break in habitat from Canada down and wolves were relatively heavily populated there for the last century right?
Post by: KFhunter on December 28, 2019, 11:31:33 AM
Post by: buckfvr on December 28, 2019, 11:36:22 AM
Post by: msg on December 28, 2019, 11:47:50 AM
1 Unchecked large predators at the top of the list.
2 Hoof rot. Hopefully some movement will come from the independent study out of WSU.
3 Columbia River endorsement to pay for more and expanded opportunities. What a joke that was!
4 Severely cut hatchery plants but remove limits on warm water fish to save steelhead and salmon.
5 The list goes on and on !
Post by: fireweed on December 28, 2019, 01:30:31 PM
The question isn't really worded correctly.
Even if they were not dropped into Washington on the sly, No, the wolves did not arrive here "naturally". That would mean nobody, anywhere, did any translocation and they came in from long-existing packs in Canada completely on their own. We know that is incorrect because Canadian Wolves were released in Idaho and Yellowstone providing another way for them to get to Wash..
Post by: ThomMedic on December 28, 2019, 01:34:08 PM
The couple, especially the wife was highly disgusted with the workers for thinking they were too stupid to know the difference between the species and for being so dishonest.
Post by: Bango skank on December 28, 2019, 01:48:28 PM
Post by: buckfvr on December 28, 2019, 02:17:58 PM
Think sleaze bag politicians and agenda driven groups/agencies, and its easy for me at least to let my mind wonder in the gray area between true and not true, did they and didnt they, and what they said and what we heard.
Post by: idahohuntr on December 28, 2019, 03:56:37 PM
Well I'm about wrapped up done with this thread, I got my vote and nearly 70% of Washington hunters think wolves had some help.If you think this poll is reflective of anything more than hunt-wa members who actively participate in wolf threads...well, let's just say some democrats running for POTUS would love to hire you! :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: Twispriver on December 28, 2019, 07:01:44 PM
It's been an interesting read but maybe the thread should be renamed "Tall Tales About Wolves - Add Yours Here"
Post by: KFhunter on December 28, 2019, 07:55:15 PM
Well I'm about wrapped up done with this thread, I got my vote and nearly 70% of Washington hunters think wolves had some help.If you think this poll is reflective of anything more than hunt-wa members who actively participate in wolf threads...well, let's just say some democrats running for POTUS would love to hire you! :chuckle: :chuckle:
I'll tell you what else I got out of this poll..
5 years or so ago you had a lot of credibility. We joined HW at about the same time and started arguing about wolves pretty much right off the bat. I joined HW to tell everyone what I was seeing with wolves. I always felt that you joined HW to assuage everyone's fear and misdirect what wolves were doing. That put us at odds immediately, me sharing my personal observations, and you pitching the narrative of wolf huggers and derailing all the threads you could.
You've never once in all these years had a wolf observation of your own, never once have you ever witnessed anything regarding wolves, never came across a carcass and never surrounded or howled at. I have, how could you do anything but pitch the narrative? How could you do anything but minimize those who've actually dealt with wolves? who'se seen the carnage?
The closest thing you've ever come to a wolf interaction was this Sarah Palin'sh comment: "I live in the blues so I see things from my front porch" ouch. That was cringe worthy.
It was super frustrating because people listened to what you said including most of the mods and more prominent posters.
But now, members that used to listen to you are now some of your biggest detractors. You've lost most all of your credibility and very few listen to you anymore.
Your outed as an antagonistic shill and wolf lover who sneers and disdains HWrs while you pretend at being moderate, pretend at being a hunter.
You derail any threads about wolves, any threads about conservation northwest, and any threads about backcountry hunters & anglers...and you do so with the most contempt possible, pushing the boundaries on personal attacks as far as you think you can get away with.
Belittling, bashing, personal attacks and derailing threads will only be tolerated so long, and you'll be gone. I'm amazed you're here now, calling Boneaddict a coward and all.
Post by: HUNTIN4SIX on December 28, 2019, 08:34:00 PM
Post by: emac on December 28, 2019, 08:48:10 PM
Excellent post and from what i have read 100% accurateWell I'm about wrapped up done with this thread, I got my vote and nearly 70% of Washington hunters think wolves had some help.If you think this poll is reflective of anything more than hunt-wa members who actively participate in wolf threads...well, let's just say some democrats running for POTUS would love to hire you! :chuckle: :chuckle:
I'll tell you what else I got out of this poll..
5 years or so ago you had a lot of credibility. We joined HW at about the same time and started arguing about wolves pretty much right off the bat. I joined HW to tell everyone what I was seeing with wolves. I always felt that you joined HW to assuage everyone's fear and misdirect what wolves were doing. That put us at odds immediately, me sharing my personal observations, and you pitching the narrative of wolf huggers and derailing all the threads you could.
You've never once in all these years had a wolf observation of your own, never once have you ever witnessed anything regarding wolves, never came across a carcass and never surrounded or howled at. I have, how could you do anything but pitch the narrative? How could you do anything but minimize those who've actually dealt with wolves? who'se seen the carnage?
The closest thing you've ever come to a wolf interaction was this Sarah Palin'sh comment: "I live in the blues so I see things from my front porch" ouch. That was cringe worthy.
It was super frustrating because people listened to what you said including most of the mods and more prominent posters.
But now, members that used to listen to you are now some of your biggest detractors. You've lost most all of your credibility and very few listen to you anymore.
Your outed as an antagonistic shill and wolf lover who sneers and disdains HWrs while you pretend at being moderate, pretend at being a hunter.
You derail any threads about wolves, any threads about conservation northwest, and any threads about backcountry hunters & anglers...and you do so with the most contempt possible, pushing the boundaries on personal attacks as far as you think you can get away with.
Belittling, bashing, personal attacks and derailing threads will only be tolerated so long, and you'll be gone. I'm amazed you're here now, calling Boneaddict a coward and all.
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Post by: idahohuntr on December 28, 2019, 09:25:38 PM
The timing coincides perfectly with the reintroduction of wolves in Idaho. Adding a second and maybe larger, more direct source population makes sense to me as to why we've seen a boom in numbers in Wa. I'm not aware of any credible evidence to support the transplant theory and I dont know of any other theories...sometimes the simple explanation is the right one.Idahohunter, what is your opinion of CNW? What is your opinion of former wdfw employees working for them? Are you familiar with their approach regarding natural resources?CNW - Not my cup of tea...I'm sure they have some decent staff and I'm sure they have staff and members I'd not be well aligned with. They claim to support hunting but I do not believe its a core concern of theirs. One of their staff posts here occasionally and he seems reasonable.
My opinion of WDFW employees (former and current) is not real positive - its probably one of the worst run/managed/operated state f&w agencies in the west - so who they go work for once they leave WDFW isn't anything I care about. I'm not that familiar with CNW's approach regarding natural resources - they probably have more influence on wolf issues than many other E. Wa orgs and citizens and I'm sure they've done projects that are beneficial to fish and wildlife...but I'm sure they have a lot of issues, projects, positions I would vehemently disagree with.
The real question...what's a guy in St. Maries worried about CNW for? Not many CNW events in your neck of the woods! Used to buy a lot of motorcycles and chainsaws from Charlies saw shop - I know its got a new name now, not sure if Eddie (Charlie's boy) still owns it or if he sold though?
I move around the inland for work. Have spent a lot of time in a lot of areas from tonasket to kalispell and as far south as cascade the last couple decades.
I am biased on the subject, I dislike the impact of wolves on ungulates because I like hunting. So I am sure I am looking for something to blame it on, but there are some things that dont fully add up to me.
What is the reason for the sudden expansion of the wolves territories and populations? Its established that wolves will travel many miles, so why werent they exploding in population in NE Wa prior to recent years? There is no break in habitat from Canada down and wolves were relatively heavily populated there for the last century right?
Post by: no.cen.wa on December 28, 2019, 09:28:06 PM
We're just starting to see what they do here. Information taken from www.biggameforever.org
Sad,
John G
Post by: idahohuntr on December 28, 2019, 09:34:01 PM
If you look at Yellowstone National Park, 74 wolves were introduced in 1995, there were 19000 elk, 4000 moose, 5 years later, year 2000, there were 175 wolves, 11,000 elk, and 2000 moose, a one month period in 2014 wolves killed 148 elk, 23 deer, and 20 buffalo.You indirectly make another point...wolf numbers rise rapidly and in certain areas prey starts dropping rapidly from all time highs...high predator numbers and low prey would further explain why lots of wolves started moving into N. Idaho and NE Wa soon after reintroduction.
We're just starting to see what they do here. Information taken from www.biggameforever.org
Sad,
John G
Post by: ne kid on December 28, 2019, 10:56:12 PM
Post by: nwwanderer on December 29, 2019, 04:56:22 AM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on December 29, 2019, 11:14:34 AM
This is probably a crazy theory to a lot of folks but do we ever stop to think that the advent of social media and everyone talking about everything all day long and people meeting new people and the long range rumor mill and all that has something to do with this? Pre-social media, I'm not sure how I would have ever even heard of a wolf pack in the Methow or anywhere else for that matter had it not been talked about in forums like this and other social media avenues. I think social media magnifies the presence of wolves in the sense they were always there to a degree....they just weren't talked about.
Call me crazy. It's nothing new.
Try reading 'Stalking The Herd' for an example of impact pre-social media had on a different dilemma/subject matter. It went on for years with the cattle killings in the 70's - 80's. Press, ranchers, and authorities in numerous professions/public agencies fed on and added to the hysteria.
Post by: Lumpy Taters on December 29, 2019, 12:06:27 PM
It is a know fact that wolves will spread and 100's of documentaries prove that solo animals will go out on their own and look for mates and food. If they find both then you have a new pack. If not they keep looking. A few years ago there was a female in Oregon called OR 7 that wandered all over that state and ended up down in California and came back with a mate. Wolves are everywhere and on the west side are extremely hard to catch on camera. There is way too much cover for them to hide in.
Do I think they were all planted here NO, but do I think they had secret help getting established and protected while they did so YES.
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 29, 2019, 09:43:10 PM
Not an expert by no means, but my dad has been a logger and trapper for 50 years spent more time in the woods in the Northeast than most of us put together. His father was a logger also never seen a cougar in his lifetime. My dad never seen a wolf till 2000. He can tell you the habits of every animal out there from a pine squirrel to a bobcat. I take what he says as gospel. He says the wolves had help I'll take his word for it. My dad is 73 never lived outside of Ferry county other than military service. I take his word for it. It is not natural what has happened here. They had help. Prove me wrong.
Prove they didnt have help? How would anybody prove that?
Post by: ne kid on December 29, 2019, 10:47:53 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 30, 2019, 06:44:23 AM
Not an expert by no means, but my dad has been a logger and trapper for 50 years spent more time in the woods in the Northeast than most of us put together. His father was a logger also never seen a cougar in his lifetime. My dad never seen a wolf till 2000. He can tell you the habits of every animal out there from a pine squirrel to a bobcat. I take what he says as gospel. He says the wolves had help I'll take his word for it. My dad is 73 never lived outside of Ferry county other than military service. I take his word for it. It is not natural what has happened here. They had help. Prove me wrong.
Prove they didnt have help? How would anybody prove that?
You can't prove a negative.
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 30, 2019, 06:51:10 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 30, 2019, 07:23:43 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 30, 2019, 07:27:54 AM
Post by: boneaddict on December 30, 2019, 07:31:23 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 30, 2019, 07:32:17 AM
Post by: wolfbait on December 30, 2019, 06:43:20 PM
https://www.bowhunting.net/artman/publish/Lobo_Watch/Which_Wolf_Is_The_Right_Wolf.shtml
Which Wolf Is The Right Wolf? Pt 2
https://www.bowhunting.net/artman/publish/Lobo_Watch/Which_Wolf_Is_The_Right_Wolf_Pt_2.shtml
Ed Bangs admitted dumping wolves around ID etc, he said the reason for doing so was because the wolves weren't dispersing fast enough.
Post by: Goshawk on February 14, 2020, 09:27:32 AM
I don't remember who shot it, but I do remember being told that a game warder looked over a dead timber wolf in the back of a pickup truck at the Wolf's Market parking lot. The story as I (grad school age) remember it was that the wolf was identified as an eastern timber wolf. It had to have been imported. I recall no effort being made by the game department to protect them then as they were considered a non native species, and addressed as any destructive dog would have been; if it's attacking livestock stock, shoot it. A lot of fingers pointed to Weyerhaeuser as a way to drop deer browsing damage in the Vail unit while being able to keep closed gates.
I admit it's all hearsay since I never saw a wolf myself. Anyone else old enough on this thread to remember this story?