Post by: HoytHunter24 on April 08, 2020, 04:13:57 PM
I have all my own gear and weapon. I am looking for a group of reliable and fit guys who would be serious about doing this together.
This thread could be used for anyone looking to form a group.
Post up if you are interested!
Post by: kselkhunter on April 08, 2020, 04:20:04 PM
I'd like to join up with a group. Happy to PM my backcountry resume to those interested.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 08, 2020, 05:05:56 PM
Post by: Jpmiller on April 08, 2020, 05:22:04 PM
Post by: CLARKTAR on April 08, 2020, 06:08:09 PM
I'm assuming this is all a shoot them and leave them thing right? I'd be interested if we got to keep meat and hides but not to just let them rot on the side of a mountain.You get what you pack out.
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Post by: kselkhunter on April 08, 2020, 06:13:46 PM
I'm assuming this is all a shoot them and leave them thing right? I'd be interested if we got to keep meat and hides but not to just let them rot on the side of a mountain.
Yes you get to keep the meat. Scroll down to the volunteer duty description document. https://www.nps.gov/olym/getinvolved/mountain-goat-management-how-to-volunteer.htm
Post by: jackelope on April 08, 2020, 06:49:41 PM
I'm assuming this is all a shoot them and leave them thing right? I'd be interested if we got to keep meat and hides but not to just let them rot on the side of a mountain.You get what you pack out.
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
This isn’t totally accurate. The email and the website both say you turn in skull plates. So no horns. You also don’t post on social media and don’t own any photos you take among other things.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200409/f00820987387066edcd832f6b22166b2.jpg)
Post by: TooTallMike on April 08, 2020, 06:54:23 PM
Post by: Jpmiller on April 08, 2020, 07:00:42 PM
I'm assuming this is all a shoot them and leave them thing right? I'd be interested if we got to keep meat and hides but not to just let them rot on the side of a mountain.You get what you pack out.
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
This isn’t totally accurate. The email and the website both say you turn in skull plates. So no horns. You also don’t post on social media and don’t own any photos you take among other things.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200409/f00820987387066edcd832f6b22166b2.jpg)
So if I'm reading that right you can keep the hide and meat though? To be honest as much as I've always wanted to hunt a goat I'm not really excited by the horns. This may be something I need to look into more. Thanks for clarifying all that I missed that in the initial skim reading.
Post by: TheStovePipeKid on April 08, 2020, 08:54:13 PM
Session dates are September 9-19, September 22-October 2, and October 5-16.
Post by: Hovel Downs on April 08, 2020, 08:59:54 PM
Post by: kselkhunter on April 08, 2020, 09:02:19 PM
May I suggest people post the session or sessions they are wanting to participate in?
Session dates are September 9-19, September 22-October 2, and October 5-16.
I'm open to all three sessions.
Post by: RB on April 08, 2020, 10:42:32 PM
Post by: kselkhunter on April 08, 2020, 10:52:12 PM
I think that is more of a physical fitness requirement for the doctor's note. To weed out folks that can't handle the terrain.
Nobody is going to keep backpacking their gear 15 miles per day for a week or more on this project. Teams will get assigned areas. None of those areas are big enough to support 105 miles of hiking in a week...…your description of hiking into an area and setting up camp is more realistic. Maybe moving camp once or twice. But nobody is moving camp 15 miles per day, not with how the regions are being assigned.
Post by: TooTallMike on April 08, 2020, 11:28:52 PM
Post by: John B on April 08, 2020, 11:43:55 PM
15 miles per day for 7 days listed in the health and fitness requirement document......would put you well into Canada.
Not likely hiking in a straight line
Post by: Parasite on April 09, 2020, 12:04:17 AM
Post by: opdinkslayer on April 09, 2020, 06:38:11 AM
May I suggest people post the session or sessions they are wanting to participate in?
Session dates are September 9-19, September 22-October 2, and October 5-16.
If they really want the goats eliminated why wouldn’t they schedule the dates a bit earlier in the year when there is a lesser chance for prolonged foul weather & 0 visibility? Some years it’s beautiful all the way to deer season & some it’s not. I get the goal is eradication for free but those dates aren’t going to maximize the ONP’s goal if the weather doesn’t cooperate & could get somebody hurt or killed in some of those areas if you’ve bitten off more than you can chew. Take it from someone who has climbed Olympus,Carrie,Constance etc & cross country’ed into some other places in the western olympics, this isn’t gonna be a cake walk. There’s hikes that are brutal with a trail let alone when you have to cross country to go a few miles in steep brushy ground just to get cliffed out or down into another canyon to get closer to the goats. I suggest study google earth & think this one through thoroughly before raising your hand for duty. I know I am & this is in my back yard! :chuckle:
Post by: D-Rock425 on April 09, 2020, 07:39:53 AM
Post by: Dan-o on April 09, 2020, 07:41:49 AM
May I suggest people post the session or sessions they are wanting to participate in?
Session dates are September 9-19, September 22-October 2, and October 5-16.
If they really want the goats eliminated why wouldn’t they schedule the dates a bit earlier in the year when there is a lesser chance for prolonged foul weather & 0 visibility? Some years it’s beautiful all the way to deer season & some it’s not. I get the goal is eradication for free but those dates aren’t going to maximize the ONP’s goal if the weather doesn’t cooperate & could get somebody hurt or killed in some of those areas if you’ve bitten off more than you can chew. Take it from someone who has climbed Olympus,Carrie,Constance etc & cross country’ed into some other places in the western olympics, this isn’t gonna be a cake walk. There’s hikes that are brutal with a trail let alone when you have to cross country to go a few miles in steep brushy ground just to get cliffed out or down into another canyon to get closer to the goats. I suggest study google earth & think this one through thoroughly before raising your hand for duty. I know I am & this is in my back yard! :chuckle:
My guess on timing is they want to minimize interactions with hikers.
Post by: avidnwoutdoorsman on April 09, 2020, 07:56:59 AM
And I'm not trying to scare people but this is the toughest hunt you may reasonably ever go on.
If I don't make it on a team or even if I do, I will help with everything I learned from my hunt.
Post by: jstone on April 09, 2020, 08:00:16 AM
Post by: HntnFsh on April 09, 2020, 08:10:16 AM
May I suggest people post the session or sessions they are wanting to participate in?
Session dates are September 9-19, September 22-October 2, and October 5-16.
If they really want the goats eliminated why wouldn’t they schedule the dates a bit earlier in the year when there is a lesser chance for prolonged foul weather & 0 visibility? Some years it’s beautiful all the way to deer season & some it’s not. I get the goal is eradication for free but those dates aren’t going to maximize the ONP’s goal if the weather doesn’t cooperate & could get somebody hurt or killed in some of those areas if you’ve bitten off more than you can chew. Take it from someone who has climbed Olympus,Carrie,Constance etc & cross country’ed into some other places in the western olympics, this isn’t gonna be a cake walk. There’s hikes that are brutal with a trail let alone when you have to cross country to go a few miles in steep brushy ground just to get cliffed out or down into another canyon to get closer to the goats. I suggest study google earth & think this one through thoroughly before raising your hand for duty. I know I am & this is in my back yard! :chuckle:
My guess on timing is they want to minimize interactions with hikers.
And its after their last roundup.
Post by: avidnwoutdoorsman on April 09, 2020, 08:10:42 AM
May I suggest people post the session or sessions they are wanting to participate in?
Session dates are September 9-19, September 22-October 2, and October 5-16.
If they really want the goats eliminated why wouldn’t they schedule the dates a bit earlier in the year when there is a lesser chance for prolonged foul weather & 0 visibility? Some years it’s beautiful all the way to deer season & some it’s not. I get the goal is eradication for free but those dates aren’t going to maximize the ONP’s goal if the weather doesn’t cooperate & could get somebody hurt or killed in some of those areas if you’ve bitten off more than you can chew. Take it from someone who has climbed Olympus,Carrie,Constance etc & cross country’ed into some other places in the western olympics, this isn’t gonna be a cake walk. There’s hikes that are brutal with a trail let alone when you have to cross country to go a few miles in steep brushy ground just to get cliffed out or down into another canyon to get closer to the goats. I suggest study google earth & think this one through thoroughly before raising your hand for duty. I know I am & this is in my back yard! :chuckle:
My guess on timing is they want to minimize interactions with hikers.
Their are advantages to a later season in that the goats can get pushed down and its less work.... if it were later then they would have a thicker coat too which if you got a nice billy it makes a better mount should you choose to go that way. But yes weather can and will play a factor in visible days to hunt.
I wonder if they have any judas goats left.... I can't imagine they wont be giving out coordinates to where the goats are.
Post by: jackelope on April 09, 2020, 08:13:23 AM
Post by: bigfish51 on April 09, 2020, 08:21:57 AM
Also, there are no tag fees and you don't lose any points as this is a NPR thing, not a WA state administered hunt.
All that said, if you are like me and have been applying for a goat tag for 26 straight years and not drawn, this would be great opportunity to get in the game. I'm planning on applying along with a group of my hunting buddies. Good luck to all!
Post by: Tbar on April 09, 2020, 08:29:40 AM
It would be better to have hunters up there instead of a helicopter flying around shooting animals and leaving them. That’s a bad lookHelicopter retrieval rate would be much higher than boot hunters. Make no mistake, this will be a media feast and "hunters" will undoubtedly be villains. This is an unfortunate deflection of blame from the antis on to hunters.
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 09, 2020, 08:35:18 AM
Post by: D-Rock425 on April 09, 2020, 08:36:09 AM
first thing i thought of was the anti hunter back lash.It would be better to have hunters up there instead of a helicopter flying around shooting animals and leaving them. That’s a bad lookHelicopter retrieval rate would be much higher than boot hunters. Make no mistake, this will be a media feast and "hunters" will undoubtedly be villains. This is an unfortunate deflection of blame from the antis on to hunters.
Post by: Born2late on April 09, 2020, 08:36:58 AM
you would have a great idea if what you are in for and where to attack it from.
Post by: avidnwoutdoorsman on April 09, 2020, 08:45:59 AM
first thing i thought of was the anti hunter back lash.It would be better to have hunters up there instead of a helicopter flying around shooting animals and leaving them. That’s a bad lookHelicopter retrieval rate would be much higher than boot hunters. Make no mistake, this will be a media feast and "hunters" will undoubtedly be villains. This is an unfortunate deflection of blame from the antis on to hunters.
Well then they can fund the non-lethal removal of said goats.... love that both parties can recognize that they are not native and need removed... and it's the party that thinks money grows on trees and wont fund humane removal that will sling the dirt. It's hunters and hunting based organizations that have foot the bill to date to save as many as we equitably possible...I think. (I'm assuming because if they did fund the removal efforts so far I'll shut up)
Post by: bigfish51 on April 09, 2020, 08:47:45 AM
Flying the area would be perfectly legal (it is in WA) as long as you don't do it in the same 24 hour period as you hunt. I've done it before, but generally a few days to weeks before a hunt just to get the lay of the land and general locations. Heck, most animals move a few miles a day anyways, so trying to spot their exact location is a crap shoot. But, it wouldn't hurt anything to have an idea!
Post by: kselkhunter on April 09, 2020, 08:59:55 AM
And we're not talking about having to cover the entire park here. There are 6 units. Each unit ranges in size from roughly 2 miles by 4 miles up to 5 miles by 5 miles. Which is still sizeable terrain, and it's ridiculously steep and challenging of course. But teams are assigned to the unit and won't be wandering all over the park looking for goats. There are exact locations that the assigned teams will be heading for to search for goats. 3 sessions, 18 eradication teams.
Post by: JR825 on April 09, 2020, 09:15:19 AM
Post by: jackelope on April 09, 2020, 10:04:36 AM
The way I’m reading that, they want the horns.
Post by: kselkhunter on April 09, 2020, 10:16:07 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200409/b804a65e85b0be8d27d93ff86b937e62.jpg)
The way I’m reading that, they want the horns.
Read the previous page in this thread, post from BigFish51
"I spent a bit of time on the phone with the bio in charge of this cull/eradication hunt. You do get to keep the skull and horns, but it's kind of complicated. If a group of 6 guys shoots 4 animals, you get to keep 2 heads. The other 2 heads would then be given to the tribes for ceremonial purposes. If the same group of 6 guys killed 10 goats, then each guy gets to keep a head. "
Post by: Tbar on April 09, 2020, 10:23:06 AM
Did this retention information come directly from Patti?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200409/b804a65e85b0be8d27d93ff86b937e62.jpg)
The way I’m reading that, they want the horns.
Read the previous page in this thread, post from BigFish51
"I spent a bit of time on the phone with the bio in charge of this cull/eradication hunt. You do get to keep the skull and horns, but it's kind of complicated. If a group of 6 guys shoots 4 animals, you get to keep 2 heads. The other 2 heads would then be given to the tribes for ceremonial purposes. If the same group of 6 guys killed 10 goats, then each guy gets to keep a head. "
Post by: jackelope on April 09, 2020, 10:38:25 AM
Post by: Tbar on April 09, 2020, 10:41:41 AM
That alone will make this a booner billy hunt. Could you imagine an entire:yeah:sealgoat team 6 up there hunting goats that have never been hunted, set with the mission to shoot all the goats they see. They run into a group of nannies and kids, then spot a lone billy 500 yards up the ridge from the women and children? Which one's getting shot if a guy can keep horns?
Agreement again? Strange times.....
Post by: Rainier10 on April 09, 2020, 10:46:03 AM
I spent a bit of time on the phone with the bio in charge of this cull/eradication hunt. You do get to keep the skull and horns, but it's kind of complicated. If a group of 6 guys shoots 4 animals, you get to keep 2 heads. The other 2 heads would then be given to the tribes for ceremonial purposes. If the same group of 6 guys killed 10 goats, then each guy gets to keep a head. This isn't a "trophy hunt" per se, but a tool that NPR is allowing to help (hopefully) remove all the goats from the park. So, in a normal world of goat hunting (Jackelope and other goat hunters who have talked about it, feel free to chime in), you would be discouraged from shooting a nannie, as she would probably have kids around and the likelihood of said kids surviving on their own is pretty much nil. In the case of this hunt, you are allowed as many goats as you can get, and if the same situation of nannie/kids is presented, you are encouraged to shoot them all. Otherwise, it would be inhumane and unsportsmanlike to allow the kids to just basically die a slow death.
Also, there are no tag fees and you don't lose any points as this is a NPR thing, not a WA state administered hunt.
All that said, if you are like me and have been applying for a goat tag for 26 straight years and not drawn, this would be great opportunity to get in the game. I'm planning on applying along with a group of my hunting buddies. Good luck to all!
The bolded statement is my biggest concern. They want you to shoot them all because it is humane but when pictures or video that get out it is not going to be painted in a good light. It will be like the guy that took a picture of the family of baboons he shot.
Post by: jackelope on April 09, 2020, 10:46:42 AM
That alone will make this a booner billy hunt. Could you imagine an entire:yeah:sealgoat team 6 up there hunting goats that have never been hunted, set with the mission to shoot all the goats they see. They run into a group of nannies and kids, then spot a lone billy 500 yards up the ridge from the women and children? Which one's getting shot if a guy can keep horns?
Agreement again? Strange times.....
THIS HAS GOT TO STOP!!
Post by: jackelope on April 09, 2020, 10:47:55 AM
:twocents:
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 09, 2020, 10:52:38 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on April 09, 2020, 10:54:06 AM
Nobody should be allowed to keep horns.
:twocents:
I didn't get any horns when I went on your goat hunt. It was one of the most amazing hunts I have been on. Great experience, great memories and photos to cherish forever.
I feel like this hunt has the possibility to have the same fond memories, experience and photos without taking horns or a mount home as well.
Unfortunately I can also see this going very bad and tarnishing the experience.
Post by: jackelope on April 09, 2020, 10:55:13 AM
Meat preservation should be mandatory. :twocents:
I don't disagree, but if they want you to shoot as many as possible, how much meat are you expected to pack out? You come on a herd of a few nannies and kids and you shoot them all, you're talking about a couple hundred pounds of meat possibly. The wastage is what will put the biggest black eye on anyone in this.
Post by: jackelope on April 09, 2020, 10:56:34 AM
Nobody should be allowed to keep horns.
:twocents:
I didn't get any horns when I went on your goat hunt. It was one of the most amazing hunts I have been on. Great experience, great memories and photos to cherish forever.
I feel like this hunt has the possibility to have the same fond memories, experience and photos without taking horns or a mount home as well.
Unfortunately I can also see this going very bad and tarnishing the experience.
The photos you take are not your property to share/use/keep. They make that clear in the volunteer info page. Or one of those pages. No social media. You're an enrolled NPS volunteer. Everything that happens as a result of this has to go through them.
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on April 09, 2020, 10:57:50 AM
Nobody should be allowed to keep horns.
:twocents:
I didn't get any horns when I went on your goat hunt. It was one of the most amazing hunts I have been on. Great experience, great memories and photos to cherish forever.
I feel like this hunt has the possibility to have the same fond memories, experience and photos without taking horns or a mount home as well.
Unfortunately I can also see this going very bad and tarnishing the experience.
The photos you take are not your property to share/use/keep. They make that clear in the volunteer info page. Or one of those pages. No social media. You're an enrolled NPS volunteer. Everything that happens as a result of this has to go through them.
They going to strip search the the volunteers?🤔
Post by: bobcat on April 09, 2020, 11:02:19 AM
Post by: jackelope on April 09, 2020, 11:03:34 AM
Nobody should be allowed to keep horns.
:twocents:
I didn't get any horns when I went on your goat hunt. It was one of the most amazing hunts I have been on. Great experience, great memories and photos to cherish forever.
I feel like this hunt has the possibility to have the same fond memories, experience and photos without taking horns or a mount home as well.
Unfortunately I can also see this going very bad and tarnishing the experience.
The photos you take are not your property to share/use/keep. They make that clear in the volunteer info page. Or one of those pages. No social media. You're an enrolled NPS volunteer. Everything that happens as a result of this has to go through them.
They going to strip search the the volunteers?🤔
:dunno:
Just reporting what they said. You're going to sign something upfront indicating you agree to all of this stuff...the rest is up to you.
That's the same mentality folks will use and forego shooting nannies and kids in favor of shooting the big billies though too.
Post by: jackelope on April 09, 2020, 11:04:37 AM
I don't see the big deal about the meat being saved for human consumption. This is not a hunt. Getting the meat out just isn't practical. The volunteers will be there to shoot goats, why waste time packing out the meat? That makes no sense. Nothing in nature is wasted, there are plenty of critters that will eat the meat. That's probably the reason for the requirement to not use lead bullets.
Probably right. I originally assumed no lead bullets because of the national park aspect. Your reason makes more sense.
Post by: Rainier10 on April 09, 2020, 11:08:33 AM
So my schedule is slammed for this upcoming year making this hunt not really an option for me. The more I hear about it the more I feel like the cost is not worth what you get out of it.Nobody should be allowed to keep horns.
:twocents:
I didn't get any horns when I went on your goat hunt. It was one of the most amazing hunts I have been on. Great experience, great memories and photos to cherish forever.
I feel like this hunt has the possibility to have the same fond memories, experience and photos without taking horns or a mount home as well.
Unfortunately I can also see this going very bad and tarnishing the experience.
The photos you take are not your property to share/use/keep. They make that clear in the volunteer info page. Or one of those pages. No social media. You're an enrolled NPS volunteer. Everything that happens as a result of this has to go through them.
For those of you that want to goat hunt I would highly suggest just backpacking into one of the wilderness areas, camping out and taking photos. That is really the best part. After you shoot one it really gets sketchy getting the meat out and if you are wearing a Tenzing pack it really sucks. Full disclosure I am sure Tenzing works for some and I am pretty sure I didn't have the pack adjusted correctly but the pack out sucked on Josh's hunt. I didn't notice the pack being uncomfortable when I worried that I might die on the rock cliffs. After we got to a decent path I started to notice the discomfort. At that point I was wishing I had fell to my death on the cliffs.
Post by: kselkhunter on April 09, 2020, 11:16:10 AM
Folks that are still looking to join a group, please feel free to post in this thread regarding your interest in joining a group.
Some groups have filled up, but there are some stragglers still looking to join a group before the application deadline.
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on April 09, 2020, 11:17:51 AM
The PR damage from this to the hunting community is going to be terrible. The term volunteer is going to equal hunter in the end.
All those hunters went into the park and killed the billies, nannies, and the kids.
I get the idea of that it might save taxpayer money not to have paid shooters, but it not worth the backlash we are going to receive from it.
Look at hound hunting, trapping, baiting predators. What’s going to come out of this next time the tree huggers run a initiative on straight up hunting?
Let the Feds pay for their own dirty work, and keep us from getting blamed. :twocents:
Post by: Tbar on April 09, 2020, 11:24:50 AM
Back to the purpose of this thread topic.....So if I'm considering joking a group can you expand on retention of the head? Who did you communicate with at NPS? Is that framework in writing somewhere?
Folks that are still looking to join a group, please feel free to post in this thread regarding your interest in joining a group.
Some groups have filled up, but there are some stragglers still looking to join a group before the application deadline.
Post by: Jpmiller on April 09, 2020, 11:25:16 AM
Not getting to look for the goat you want but instead shooting every goat, hunting them with short hair, limited ability to save meat and hide, no pictures, etc. I hope the guys going get what they want out of it but i don't think if enjoy it the more I think about it.
Post by: ipkus on April 09, 2020, 11:56:09 AM
They are soliciting non-employee volunteers to serve in the same capacity as their hired guns would be; to exterminate the remaining goats. They are asking you to perform the same task in the same way they would hire someone else to do it, so where is the black eye? Just because it's more visible and will get more attention doesn't change the fact that this is exactly how it is going to happen, regardless of who does it, this fall. It has been determined that this needs to be done. For once, the government is making an attempt to let well trained volunteers accomplish work they usually pay top dollar to get done. That needs to be the message, period. From us, from the teams, and from the NPS.
Post by: bobcat on April 09, 2020, 12:01:39 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on April 09, 2020, 12:20:03 PM
Well said, ipkus. I agree.:yeah:
Post by: bigfish51 on April 09, 2020, 12:32:16 PM
Anyways, if your into this thing than apply, if not, don't hold it against anybody who does decide to do it.
I agree with everybody's points of view. It will be interesting to see what type of protester crowds are at the trailheads when this actually happens in the fall.
Damned if we do and damned if we don't!!!!!!
Post by: Tbar on April 09, 2020, 12:54:54 PM
Those of you looking at this as a 'hunt' aren't comprehending what this is about. And those of you that are worried about hunters getting a black eye from this obviously don't understand that anti-hunter's look at you like Democrats look at Trump. It doesn't matter if you pull a child out of the street from in front of a speeding bus, it will be your fault the bus was speeding.I would push back on your anti assessment in this scenario. It's not necessarily there anti crowd that one should worry about but the public perception of the 90+/-% that doesn't fit either hunter or anti demographic. Also your assessment of animal services (aphis) and comparing their level of professionalism and efficiency to rank and file hunters is flat out wrong. Perception is reality and when is sensationalized and spun you are at the mercy of the masses and how they see it. The other issue is you are getting participation from the opposition and building a case (by inclusion) for future extreme actions similar to this.
They are soliciting non-employee volunteers to serve in the same capacity as their hired guns would be; to exterminate the remaining goats. They are asking you to perform the same task in the same way they would hire someone else to do it, so where is the black eye? Just because it's more visible and will get more attention doesn't change the fact that this is exactly how it is going to happen, regardless of who does it, this fall. It has been determined that this needs to be done. For once, the government is making an attempt to let well trained volunteers accomplish work they usually pay top dollar to get done. That needs to be the message, period. From us, from the teams, and from the NPS.
Post by: avidnwoutdoorsman on April 09, 2020, 01:12:48 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 09, 2020, 01:33:56 PM
Those of you looking at this as a 'hunt' aren't comprehending what this is about. And those of you that are worried about hunters getting a black eye from this obviously don't understand that anti-hunter's look at you like Democrats look at Trump. It doesn't matter if you pull a child out of the street from in front of a speeding bus, it will be your fault the bus was speeding.I would push back on your anti assessment in this scenario. It's not necessarily there anti crowd that one should worry about but the public perception of the 90+/-% that doesn't fit either hunter or anti demographic. Also your assessment of animal services (aphis) and comparing their level of professionalism and efficiency to rank and file hunters is flat out wrong. Perception is reality and when is sensationalized and spun you are at the mercy of the masses and how they see it. The other issue is you are getting participation from the opposition and building a case (by inclusion) for future extreme actions similar to this.
They are soliciting non-employee volunteers to serve in the same capacity as their hired guns would be; to exterminate the remaining goats. They are asking you to perform the same task in the same way they would hire someone else to do it, so where is the black eye? Just because it's more visible and will get more attention doesn't change the fact that this is exactly how it is going to happen, regardless of who does it, this fall. It has been determined that this needs to be done. For once, the government is making an attempt to let well trained volunteers accomplish work they usually pay top dollar to get done. That needs to be the message, period. From us, from the teams, and from the NPS.
The aphis guys have killed a lot of sheep in WA and I never saw that on King 5 news. Hopefully this project yields the same results. Those guys are pro's and Goat Team 6's members are not pro's regardless of how much of an operator they are.
Post by: teanawayslayer on April 09, 2020, 01:45:12 PM
Post by: Tbar on April 09, 2020, 01:49:44 PM
:yeah:Those of you looking at this as a 'hunt' aren't comprehending what this is about. And those of you that are worried about hunters getting a black eye from this obviously don't understand that anti-hunter's look at you like Democrats look at Trump. It doesn't matter if you pull a child out of the street from in front of a speeding bus, it will be your fault the bus was speeding.I would push back on your anti assessment in this scenario. It's not necessarily there anti crowd that one should worry about but the public perception of the 90+/-% that doesn't fit either hunter or anti demographic. Also your assessment of animal services (aphis) and comparing their level of professionalism and efficiency to rank and file hunters is flat out wrong. Perception is reality and when is sensationalized and spun you are at the mercy of the masses and how they see it. The other issue is you are getting participation from the opposition and building a case (by inclusion) for future extreme actions similar to this.
They are soliciting non-employee volunteers to serve in the same capacity as their hired guns would be; to exterminate the remaining goats. They are asking you to perform the same task in the same way they would hire someone else to do it, so where is the black eye? Just because it's more visible and will get more attention doesn't change the fact that this is exactly how it is going to happen, regardless of who does it, this fall. It has been determined that this needs to be done. For once, the government is making an attempt to let well trained volunteers accomplish work they usually pay top dollar to get done. That needs to be the message, period. From us, from the teams, and from the NPS.
The aphis guys have killed a lot of sheep in WA and I never saw that on King 5 news. Hopefully this project yields the same results. Those guys are pro's and Goat Team 6's members are not pro's regardless of how much of an operator they are.
Again! Also on the tieton eradication they were able to retrieve carcasses in most cases. There disease testing was a totally different scenario however.
Post by: jackelope on April 09, 2020, 02:03:50 PM
Post by: ipkus on April 09, 2020, 03:54:02 PM
Those of you looking at this as a 'hunt' aren't comprehending what this is about. And those of you that are worried about hunters getting a black eye from this obviously don't understand that anti-hunter's look at you like Democrats look at Trump. It doesn't matter if you pull a child out of the street from in front of a speeding bus, it will be your fault the bus was speeding.I would push back on your anti assessment in this scenario. It's not necessarily there anti crowd that one should worry about but the public perception of the 90+/-% that doesn't fit either hunter or anti demographic. Also your assessment of animal services (aphis) and comparing their level of professionalism and efficiency to rank and file hunters is flat out wrong. Perception is reality and when is sensationalized and spun you are at the mercy of the masses and how they see it. The other issue is you are getting participation from the opposition and building a case (by inclusion) for future extreme actions similar to this.
They are soliciting non-employee volunteers to serve in the same capacity as their hired guns would be; to exterminate the remaining goats. They are asking you to perform the same task in the same way they would hire someone else to do it, so where is the black eye? Just because it's more visible and will get more attention doesn't change the fact that this is exactly how it is going to happen, regardless of who does it, this fall. It has been determined that this needs to be done. For once, the government is making an attempt to let well trained volunteers accomplish work they usually pay top dollar to get done. That needs to be the message, period. From us, from the teams, and from the NPS.
1.) Public perception of the neutral 80% should not sway if this is presented as exactly what it is.
2.) I didn't make an assessment of aphis, and I didn't compare them to rank and file hunters. What are you talking about?
3.) If you don't even know who has applied or been chosen to participate, how can you possibly be offended by how they compare? You don't even know who you are talking about??
Post by: Tbar on April 09, 2020, 04:58:23 PM
1. I hope you're right.Those of you looking at this as a 'hunt' aren't comprehending what this is about. And those of you that are worried about hunters getting a black eye from this obviously don't understand that anti-hunter's look at you like Democrats look at Trump. It doesn't matter if you pull a child out of the street from in front of a speeding bus, it will be your fault the bus was speeding.I would push back on your anti assessment in this scenario. It's not necessarily there anti crowd that one should worry about but the public perception of the 90+/-% that doesn't fit either hunter or anti demographic. Also your assessment of animal services (aphis) and comparing their level of professionalism and efficiency to rank and file hunters is flat out wrong. Perception is reality and when is sensationalized and spun you are at the mercy of the masses and how they see it. The other issue is you are getting participation from the opposition and building a case (by inclusion) for future extreme actions similar to this.
They are soliciting non-employee volunteers to serve in the same capacity as their hired guns would be; to exterminate the remaining goats. They are asking you to perform the same task in the same way they would hire someone else to do it, so where is the black eye? Just because it's more visible and will get more attention doesn't change the fact that this is exactly how it is going to happen, regardless of who does it, this fall. It has been determined that this needs to be done. For once, the government is making an attempt to let well trained volunteers accomplish work they usually pay top dollar to get done. That needs to be the message, period. From us, from the teams, and from the NPS.
1.) Public perception of the neutral 80% should not sway if this is presented as exactly what it is.
2.) I didn't make an assessment of aphis, and I didn't compare them to rank and file hunters. What are you talking about?
3.) If you don't even know who has applied or been chosen to participate, how can you possibly be offended by how they compare? You don't even know who you are talking about??
2. See bolded. Aphis are the feds "hired guns".
3. You're right on all accounts. I do however know what the request was and the list it was disseminated to.
Post by: RobinHoodlum on April 09, 2020, 08:38:38 PM
As others have suggested, you're setting yourself up for big time failure by shopping for partners on the internet for hunting in this kind of terrain. Guessing the flake/bail out rate will be quite high. If they don't end up cancelling it altogether due to corona, public outcry, political posturing... Don't get me wrong, I really hope it happens.
One other point - keep in mind that the low hanging fruit has been picked (i.e. socialized 'park' goats in easy terrain) and the otherwise naive goats have been educated after two years of helicopter pursuit. Thus, anyone actually serious about this should be prepared for steep snow travel, sketchy scrambling, and potentially life threatening weather conditions.
Post by: ipkus on April 09, 2020, 08:45:48 PM
As for your #3, it’s pretty arrogant of you to assume based on how the request was made that you already know who the respondents will be. You come across as someone with an aphis connection that is defensive or possibly worried that a group of guys with other jobs might make aphis not look so special? What gives?
Post by: GoPlayOutside on April 10, 2020, 09:57:42 AM
Are there perks to this job? Yes. Scenery, Outdoors, experience (maybe once in a lifetime), etc.
Don't confuse this with your 20yrs of points built up on a Once in a Lifetime "hunt". The mindset is different, the outcome is different, and the intent is different.
If you are concerned about what people will think/say....this isn't for you.
Post by: coachcw on April 10, 2020, 12:30:14 PM
Post by: ballpark on April 10, 2020, 12:52:31 PM
This virus is gonna change the face of the world!!
Wrong post :tup:
Post by: jackelope on April 10, 2020, 01:09:33 PM
This virus is gonna change the face of the world!!
Wrong post :tup:
Right post. It's a joke.
That was aimed at my new BFF Tbar. We suddenly agree on literally everything after consistently butting heads in the past.
Post by: idaho guy on April 10, 2020, 01:29:22 PM
That alone will make this a booner billy hunt. Could you imagine an entiresealgoat team 6 up there hunting goats that have never been hunted, set with the mission to shoot all the goats they see. They run into a group of nannies and kids, then spot a lone billy 500 yards up the ridge from the women and children? Which one's getting shot if a guy can keep horns?
ALL of them get shot :chuckle:
Post by: Aginor on April 10, 2020, 01:53:19 PM
Post by: Falcon on April 11, 2020, 12:40:46 PM
Post by: mjb8 on April 12, 2020, 11:06:03 PM
Post by: Rob on April 13, 2020, 07:04:06 AM
Post by: yakimanoob on April 13, 2020, 07:27:55 PM
One other point - keep in mind that the low hanging fruit has been picked (i.e. socialized 'park' goats in easy terrain) and the otherwise naive goats have been educated after two years of helicopter pursuit. Thus, anyone actually serious about this should be prepared for steep snow travel, sketchy scrambling, and potentially life threatening weather conditions.
:yeah:
Good luck to all who are putting in; just please know what you're getting yourself into (many of you obviously do, don't get me wrong). I just hope no one is looking at this like a lotto for some guided dream hunt. Stay safe folks! And I mean it, best of luck!
Post by: coachcw on April 14, 2020, 06:57:07 AM
Post by: jackelope on April 14, 2020, 07:04:26 AM
Post by: Vek on April 14, 2020, 07:12:57 AM
Post by: coachcw on April 14, 2020, 07:42:06 AM
Hunters have been screaming for decades to volunteer for what NPS usually pays folks to do, poorly. Now ONP steps up to the plate, and this site's ever-abundant nattering nancys are all "Whine whine, muh hunter image"? News flash: the ship has sailed on "hunter image". Normal and abnormal folks have made up their minds already. Be polite, follow the laws, and apologize to nobody.:tup:
Post by: yakimanoob on April 14, 2020, 08:30:18 AM
Hunters have been screaming for decades to volunteer for what NPS usually pays folks to do, poorly. Now ONP steps up to the plate, and this site's ever-abundant nattering nancys are all "Whine whine, muh hunter image"? News flash: the ship has sailed on "hunter image". Normal and abnormal folks have made up their minds already. Be polite, follow the laws, and apologize to nobody.:tup:
You're not wrong, but what the heck else are we going to do right now besides use the internet to pick apart a government program?!?
Post by: Bango skank on April 14, 2020, 08:47:19 AM
Hunters have been screaming for decades to volunteer for what NPS usually pays folks to do, poorly. Now ONP steps up to the plate, and this site's ever-abundant nattering nancys are all "Whine whine, muh hunter image"? News flash: the ship has sailed on "hunter image". Normal and abnormal folks have made up their minds already. Be polite, follow the laws, and apologize to nobody.:tup:
You're not wrong, but what the heck else are we going to do right now besides use the internet to pick apart a government program?!?
Enjoy a lively debate about native harvest, bear defense sidearms, or antler point restrictions?
Post by: cbond3318 on April 14, 2020, 08:49:28 AM
Hunters have been screaming for decades to volunteer for what NPS usually pays folks to do, poorly. Now ONP steps up to the plate, and this site's ever-abundant nattering nancys are all "Whine whine, muh hunter image"? News flash: the ship has sailed on "hunter image". Normal and abnormal folks have made up their minds already. Be polite, follow the laws, and apologize to nobody.:tup:
You're not wrong, but what the heck else are we going to do right now besides use the internet to pick apart a government program?!?
Enjoy a lively debate about native harvest, bear defense sidearms, or antler point restrictions?
Maybe toss in a debate on protein bars for some razzle dazzle? :chuckle:
Ahh the good Old days.
Post by: Bango skank on April 14, 2020, 08:53:54 AM
Post by: 2MANY on April 14, 2020, 09:31:09 AM
I say hire a subcontractor, dart em, and relocate em just like they did originally.
Man up and be accountable WDFW.
Post by: kselkhunter on April 14, 2020, 09:37:44 AM
Shooting a Kid between the eyes sounds horrible to me.
I say hire a subcontractor, dart em, and relocate em just like they did originally.
Man up and be accountable WDFW.
It's not WDFW. They have no involvement in the goat cull.
And NPS are still relocating more goats again this summer for the third year in a row.
Cull is the final stage of the well documented 6 year plan.
Post by: nwwanderer on April 14, 2020, 10:27:38 AM
Post by: Vek on April 14, 2020, 11:11:48 AM
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 14, 2020, 11:20:17 AM
I mean it is the internet, and this is a hunting website, so if we didnt disagree with each other from time to time where's the fun in that. Unless some people don't like being disagreed with. :dunno:
Post by: Onewhohikes on April 14, 2020, 12:07:02 PM
Post by: birddogdad on April 14, 2020, 12:14:57 PM
The objective is to remove goats . qualified hunters with a strategy will get it done . I believe if a group goes through the effort to prepare and spend over a week in the mountains basicly working for free that they should be able to retain a skull. the incentive is fine imo. but if your group is sent into a area that only holds 5 goats then you should also be able to retain a skull as long as the rest are removed .
you are not allowed to retain headgear bios want some specific sample items.. there is a very lengthy package on site discussing cans and can not's… also, lead free ammo required and no strait wall cartridges, they want you to shoot in June with "ammo being used".
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 14, 2020, 12:23:46 PM
I am disagreeing with what you just said
Hope it's your feel good moment of the day. :tup: :chuckle:
Post by: bigmacc on April 14, 2020, 04:07:07 PM
The NPS is saying "put up or shut up" to hordes of average-joe hunters who were and remain indignant that prior culls such as these were not offered as opportunities. This opportunity is part of an eradication plan; development of the plan is water under the bridge and is no longer subject to input apart from NPS and the courts. Make the best of it, be humane, and if a cull turns your stomach, don't participate. Don't project your disdain on participants as some sort of virtue signal.
I don't think folks that have mixed feelings about this or feel this is wrong for that matter have "disdain on participants" or are using this as "some sort of virtue signal. Maybe some have put thought into it concerning our appearence as hunters being involved in this by the many, many anti hunting groups and organizations, which, threaten our hunting rights everyday and salivate knowing "average-joe hunters" (as you called them) are going to be killing every goat in sight, young and old. Maybe some are thinking outside the box as what the repercussions could be concerning the general public, many of who could be on the fence as far as how they look at hunting. Maybe some wonder why THIS TIME we are being thrown this bone by the government, do they know there is a backlash coming and they want to spread the wealth? They can save money? This is going to get national attention, all they have done(government) is relocate at this point, "average-joe hunters" can do the killing, HMM. Maybe some have seen how much we have lost over the decades as hunters and know there are forces out there that want us gone and will use, spin and gobble up anything they can to use against us to achieve their goal. I said in the other thread that if this was a different time I would be first in line for this but in todays world and especially in THIS STATE I wouldn't touch this operation as a hunter with a 10 foot pole. Ive killed a lot of animals in over 60 years of hunting and like I said in the other thread, I was fortunate enough to have hunted in this state when killing a nice bear, a big elk, a beautiful goat or a trophy buck would have gotten your picture and a flattering write up in the local paper and you would have gotten honks and thumbs up from everyone that drove by as you got your trophy home strapped to the top of your rig. Maybe some of us lived AND hunted in those times and can actually tell stories of how much we have lost and how things have changed drastically for we as hunters because we were there. As I said in the other thread, Im old enough to remember a time when an operation like this would have also gotten positive feed back from the public and gotton you a nice write up in the local paper on how "hunters were used to rid the National Park of the evasive goats to save flora and fauna and make the trails safe for our hiking public" and as I said, Im also old enough to know those days are long gone, politics are drastically different and in this age of social media and 24 hour news, information can travel fast and you need to be careful what you absorb, good or bad because you don't know whats true or what hasn't been spun to fit a narrative. Speaking for myself, I wished others in the other thread "Good Luck", not sarcastically but genuinely, I wished them to "shoot straight" and for quick kills. Those of us that have questions about this have their reasons, I myself see more negatives coming out of this for us as a hunting community than things that will help us as hunters when it comes to public perception, thats all. Speaking only for myself, when you say "disdain on participants as some sort of virtue signal", well, your wrong as far as Im concerned, Im just a guy who was fortunate enough to hunt when hunting and hunters were not looked at as the devils hobby or as the scourge of the earth by most folks and can see a day in the not to distant future when none of us will be in the woods chasing anything, Im just trying to slow the arrival of that and not give the folks who want to achieve that any more fuel. Those are my thoughts and my 2 cents. I,ll say it in this thread also, to all who are involved in this operation, good luck and shoot straight and do whatever you can to put we as hunters in a positive light, they will be watching and unfortunately though, they will spin this to hurt us....... :twocents:
Post by: NumaJohn on April 14, 2020, 04:35:34 PM
I, too, wish those who participate the best of luck in what will likely end up being a thankless task.
John
Post by: idaho guy on April 14, 2020, 04:47:56 PM
The NPS is saying "put up or shut up" to hordes of average-joe hunters who were and remain indignant that prior culls such as these were not offered as opportunities. This opportunity is part of an eradication plan; development of the plan is water under the bridge and is no longer subject to input apart from NPS and the courts. Make the best of it, be humane, and if a cull turns your stomach, don't participate. Don't project your disdain on participants as some sort of virtue signal.
I don't think folks that have mixed feelings about this or feel this is wrong for that matter have "disdain on participants" or are using this as "some sort of virtue signal. Maybe some have put thought into it concerning our appearence as hunters being involved in this by the many, many anti hunting groups and organizations, which threaten our hunting rights everyday and salivate knowing "average-joe hunters" (as you called them) are going to be killing every goat in sight, young and old. Maybe some are thinking outside the box as what the repercussions could be to the general public, many of who could be on the fence as far as how they look at hunting. Maybe some wonder why THIS TIME we are being thrown this bone by the government, do they know there is a backlash coming and they want to spread the wealth? They can save money? This is going to get national attention, all they have done(government) is relocate at this point, "average-joe hunters" can do the killing, HMM. Maybe some have seen how much we have lost over the decades as hunters and know there are forces out there that want us gone and will use, spin and gobble up anything they can to use against us to achieve their goal. I said in the other thread that if this was a different time I would be first in line for this but in todays world and especially in THIS STATE I wouldn't touch this operation as a hunter with a 10 foot pole. Ive killed a lot of animals in over 60 years of hunting and like I said in the other thread, I was fortunate enough to have hunted in this state when killing a nice bear, a big elk, a beautiful goat or a trophy buck would have gotten your picture and a flattering write up in the local paper and you would have gotten honks and thumbs up from everyone that drove by as you got your trophy home strapped to the top of your rig. Maybe some of us lived AND hunted in those times and can actually tell stories of how much we have lost and how things have changed drastically for we as hunters because we were there. As I said in the other thread, Im old enough to remember a time when an operation like this would have also gotten positive feed back from the public and gotton you a nice write up in the local paper on how "hunters were used to rid the National Park of the evasive goats to save flora and fauna and make the trails safe for our hiking public" and as I said, Im also old enough to know those days are long gone. Speaking for myself, I wished others in the other thread "Good Luck", not sarcastically but genuinely, I wished them to "shoot straight" and for quick kills. Those of us that have questions about this have their reasons, I myself see more negatives coming out of this for us as a hunting community than things that will help us as hunters when it comes to public perception, thats all. Speaking only for myself, when you say "disdain on participants as some sort of virtue signal", well, your wrong as far as Im concerned, Im just a guy who was fortunate enough to hunt when hunting and hunters were not looked at as the devils hobby or as the scourge of the earth by most folks and can see a day in the not to distant future when none of us will be in the woods chasing anything, Im just trying to slow the arrival of that and not give the folks who want to achieve that any more fuel. Those are my thoughts and my 2 cents. I,ll say it in this thread also, to all who are involved in this operation, good luck and shoot straight and do whatever you can to put we as hunters in a positive light, they will be watching and unfortunately though, they will spin this to hurt us....... :twocents:
I really enjoy your posts bigmac especially some of your stories of the good ole days. I think you are being far too pessimistic on this situation and I think for the right teams its a chance to prove the VALUE hunters can provide even for a total eradication like this. The good old days aren't gone everywhere and I still live in a state where we normally see lots of hunters driving around with racks hanging out of the truck. They still put pictures of people in the paper every year with nice animals and the high school my kid goes too had an assembly to basically threaten anyone that left any more animal carcasses in the parking lot :chuckle: We got a couple nice elk and deer this year and my son drove around town showing his buddies. I know you saw an amazing time in Washington hunting but all is not lost everywhere. Huge opportunity to show the value hunters bring to the table and from some of the people I have seen posting they have applied I am sure they will do hunting proud. I am putting in with a great bunch of hard core hunters as well. None of them live in Washington
Post by: bigmacc on April 14, 2020, 07:54:40 PM
The NPS is saying "put up or shut up" to hordes of average-joe hunters who were and remain indignant that prior culls such as these were not offered as opportunities. This opportunity is part of an eradication plan; development of the plan is water under the bridge and is no longer subject to input apart from NPS and the courts. Make the best of it, be humane, and if a cull turns your stomach, don't participate. Don't project your disdain on participants as some sort of virtue signal.
I don't think folks that have mixed feelings about this or feel this is wrong for that matter have "disdain on participants" or are using this as "some sort of virtue signal. Maybe some have put thought into it concerning our appearence as hunters being involved in this by the many, many anti hunting groups and organizations, which threaten our hunting rights everyday and salivate knowing "average-joe hunters" (as you called them) are going to be killing every goat in sight, young and old. Maybe some are thinking outside the box as what the repercussions could be to the general public, many of who could be on the fence as far as how they look at hunting. Maybe some wonder why THIS TIME we are being thrown this bone by the government, do they know there is a backlash coming and they want to spread the wealth? They can save money? This is going to get national attention, all they have done(government) is relocate at this point, "average-joe hunters" can do the killing, HMM. Maybe some have seen how much we have lost over the decades as hunters and know there are forces out there that want us gone and will use, spin and gobble up anything they can to use against us to achieve their goal. I said in the other thread that if this was a different time I would be first in line for this but in todays world and especially in THIS STATE I wouldn't touch this operation as a hunter with a 10 foot pole. Ive killed a lot of animals in over 60 years of hunting and like I said in the other thread, I was fortunate enough to have hunted in this state when killing a nice bear, a big elk, a beautiful goat or a trophy buck would have gotten your picture and a flattering write up in the local paper and you would have gotten honks and thumbs up from everyone that drove by as you got your trophy home strapped to the top of your rig. Maybe some of us lived AND hunted in those times and can actually tell stories of how much we have lost and how things have changed drastically for we as hunters because we were there. As I said in the other thread, Im old enough to remember a time when an operation like this would have also gotten positive feed back from the public and gotton you a nice write up in the local paper on how "hunters were used to rid the National Park of the evasive goats to save flora and fauna and make the trails safe for our hiking public" and as I said, Im also old enough to know those days are long gone. Speaking for myself, I wished others in the other thread "Good Luck", not sarcastically but genuinely, I wished them to "shoot straight" and for quick kills. Those of us that have questions about this have their reasons, I myself see more negatives coming out of this for us as a hunting community than things that will help us as hunters when it comes to public perception, thats all. Speaking only for myself, when you say "disdain on participants as some sort of virtue signal", well, your wrong as far as Im concerned, Im just a guy who was fortunate enough to hunt when hunting and hunters were not looked at as the devils hobby or as the scourge of the earth by most folks and can see a day in the not to distant future when none of us will be in the woods chasing anything, Im just trying to slow the arrival of that and not give the folks who want to achieve that any more fuel. Those are my thoughts and my 2 cents. I,ll say it in this thread also, to all who are involved in this operation, good luck and shoot straight and do whatever you can to put we as hunters in a positive light, they will be watching and unfortunately though, they will spin this to hurt us....... :twocents:
I really enjoy your posts bigmac especially some of your stories of the good ole days. I think you are being far too pessimistic on this situation and I think for the right teams its a chance to prove the VALUE hunters can provide even for a total eradication like this. The good old days aren't gone everywhere and I still live in a state where we normally see lots of hunters driving around with racks hanging out of the truck. They still put pictures of people in the paper every year with nice animals and the high school my kid goes too had an assembly to basically threaten anyone that left any more animal carcasses in the parking lot :chuckle: We got a couple nice elk and deer this year and my son drove around town showing his buddies. I know you saw an amazing time in Washington hunting but all is not lost everywhere. Huge opportunity to show the value hunters bring to the table and from some of the people I have seen posting they have applied I am sure they will do hunting proud. I am putting in with a great bunch of hard core hunters as well. None of them live in Washington
idaho guy, :tup:
I truly hope you are right and I am wrong, I hope none of this does any damage to us as hunters and is only a tiny blip on the radar of the antis and their like. Cherish the area you live in because places like that are disappearing, I once lived in one also, I have also spent my whole life cruising the hills of the Methow Valley only to see it slowly fill with folks who no longer like to see people like me chasing deer around, they would rather have me bird watching, meditating, making pottery or cross country skiing, times are changing as far as our hunting heritage goes, feel fortunate it hasn't hit your neck of the woods yet. idaho guy, I wish you and your crew the best of luck with quick kills, shoot straight :tup:
Post by: coachcw on April 14, 2020, 09:18:47 PM
Post by: buglebrush on April 14, 2020, 09:52:31 PM
It was the anti hunter that couldn't protect them selves from the goats and got this whole thing started .. Relocating all the goats isn't feasible in a good portion of the area . my group of guys will take the job serious ... Sure it's not for everyone or the faint of heart . but as a serious group of sportsman we don't need guns for hire coming in . it's still a opportunity to be afield and hunt / cull a wild goat . something most will never get a chance to do .
:yeah:
Post by: Tbob on April 16, 2020, 03:38:48 PM
Post by: Airohunter on April 16, 2020, 04:26:55 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 16, 2020, 04:28:51 PM
Post by: yakimanoob on April 16, 2020, 04:38:49 PM
I can tell you I’ve seen people on Facebook from other states talk about their groups applying. Probably a bunch of people.
Yeah I lol'd when I read the "if we get more than 30 qualified applications" bit. Like there was ever a chance of getting less than that, especially when all the hunters in the country are bored and at their keyboards. :chuckle:
Post by: jackelope on April 16, 2020, 04:45:48 PM
I can tell you I’ve seen people on Facebook from other states talk about their groups applying. Probably a bunch of people.
Yeah I lol'd when I read the "if we get more than 30 qualified applications" bit. Like there was ever a chance of getting less than that, especially when all the hunters in the country are bored and at their keyboards. :chuckle:
Key word “qualified”
Post by: Limhangerslayer on April 16, 2020, 07:04:41 PM
Post by: yakimanoob on April 16, 2020, 10:44:45 PM
You can always get a replica! :chuckle:
Follow me for more taxidermy examples and lessons! :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: Rob on April 17, 2020, 05:21:11 AM
Post by: Onewhohikes on April 17, 2020, 05:33:45 AM
Post by: deerhuntr4885 on April 17, 2020, 11:17:18 PM
Post by: fowl smacker on April 17, 2020, 11:21:09 PM
Post by: Houndhunter on April 18, 2020, 07:46:25 AM
I talked to the NPS rep yesterday. She said they have had 200 teams already apply. Mine is one of them.
Wow 200! I wonder how many apps are out of state guys? I was feeling pretty confident about our group but who knows with that many groups applying
Post by: kselkhunter on April 18, 2020, 08:25:20 AM
I believe the over 200 teams number.
Post by: Snakeriver on April 18, 2020, 08:56:26 AM
Post by: kselkhunter on April 18, 2020, 08:59:24 AM
I'm in with a group of 5. Are they picking hunters by there applications or is it gonna be a lottery draw?
Lottery draw from the pile of "qualified" applications.
Post by: Bullkllr on April 18, 2020, 09:43:44 AM
I'm in with a group of 5. Are they picking hunters by there applications or is it gonna be a lottery draw?
Lottery draw from the pile of "qualified" applications.
Wonder how they're going to determine qualified?
Seems like high-level climbing/mountaineering skills would be high on the list of requirements.
Post by: Limhangerslayer on April 18, 2020, 10:38:12 AM
Post by: Chad McMullen on April 18, 2020, 01:34:58 PM
1) a USMC sniper and SWAT team trainer, who just so happens to also hunt the high buck season in the Oly NF wildernesses every year for the past 10 seasons
2) A backcountry hunter who has 100s of off-trail backpacking miles and 1000s of on-trail miles in ONP since his youth (plus many more elsewhere)
3) a mountaineer who has done first and second ascents in Alaska and Yukon territory, difficult ascents of Mt. Rainier, and tons of roped rock/ice/snow throughout the western U.S.
4) three other hunters with abundant backcountry hunting, backpacking, and horsepacking resumes.
All six of the members are skilled shooters with high hunting success rates
All six understand this is a culling/eradication program, not a hunting trip.
Three of the members are trained specifically in a field science of some sort and are professionals in related fields.
One of the members routinely collects police evidence; another is an attorney, and in their professional live both know how to de-escalate conflict with the public -- a public that may not agree with the goat removal program.
Two have wilderness first responder training and the rest are all current with basic first-aid/CPR
Post by: MtnMuley on April 18, 2020, 02:01:16 PM
Post by: kselkhunter on April 18, 2020, 02:33:24 PM
Post by: blindluck on April 18, 2020, 06:07:13 PM
Post by: bigmuliebuck on April 18, 2020, 08:10:01 PM
Post by: JoeE on April 18, 2020, 08:19:19 PM
Post by: Limhangerslayer on April 18, 2020, 08:46:59 PM
I put in with a group of four. Before hearing about 200 groups applying I thought we had a decent shot but now not so much. We are all knuckle dragging USMC infantry guys and one army infantry guy. All with decent mountaineering experience and lots of wilderness hunting and backpacking. I think out of 200 groups there will be some hard groups to beat out.ya, but I imagine most of the out of state groups will have a hard time making the cut
Post by: avidnwoutdoorsman on April 18, 2020, 10:48:14 PM
I put in with a group of four. Before hearing about 200 groups applying I thought we had a decent shot but now not so much. We are all knuckle dragging USMC infantry guys and one army infantry guy. All with decent mountaineering experience and lots of wilderness hunting and backpacking. I think out of 200 groups there will be some hard groups to beat out.ya, but I imagine most of the out of state groups will have a hard time making the cut
I don't. This is a federal job, not a Washington job. People pay 1000's to go hunting, back packing, and recreating. If your qualified, you're qualified. I know a few of the out of state teams and if they weren't selected as qualified I don't know who would be. This is objective. Where you are from won't and shouldn't make a difference.
And if by off chance you are referring to knowing the area....for the disadvantage to out of state. If you have killed a mountain goat or hunted wilderness in the rockies, alaska, or guided in BC, you are as qualified as anyone that has been to, traveled in, or hunted the OP. Goat country is goat country. Its the steepest, meanest, toughest terrain no matter what state you're in, and Washington is not the only state with goats and high country wilderness.
Post by: 444Marlin on April 18, 2020, 11:16:46 PM
My team has an alcoholic sexaholic and a workaholic, we’re screwed!!!
Which one are you? And are you drawing straws for who's sharing tents?
Post by: JoeE on April 19, 2020, 02:17:38 AM
I put in with a group of four. Before hearing about 200 groups applying I thought we had a decent shot but now not so much. We are all knuckle dragging USMC infantry guys and one army infantry guy. All with decent mountaineering experience and lots of wilderness hunting and backpacking. I think out of 200 groups there will be some hard groups to beat out.ya, but I imagine most of the out of state groups will have a hard time making the cut
I don't. This is a federal job, not a Washington job. People pay 1000's to go hunting, back packing, and recreating. If your qualified, you're qualified. I know a few of the out of state teams and if they weren't selected as qualified I don't know who would be. This is objective. Where you are from won't and shouldn't make a difference.
And if by off chance you are referring to knowing the area....for the disadvantage to out of state. If you have killed a mountain goat or hunted wilderness in the rockies, alaska, or guided in BC, you are as qualified as anyone that has been to, traveled in, or hunted the OP. Goat country is goat country. Its the steepest, meanest, toughest terrain no matter what state you're in, and Washington is not the only state with goats and high country wilderness.
This is spot on. This is the feds putting this together for a project in a national park. I don’t think it will/or should matter if you’re a Washington resident. I was hoping that because the group I put in with was out of state guys with all of us having a lot of time in the Rockies and Alaska would give us an edge. But 200 groups? Those are steep odds. Gonna definitely be a lot of hardcore people with applications in there.
Post by: HillHound on April 19, 2020, 02:54:43 AM
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 19, 2020, 05:28:47 AM
Post by: idaho guy on April 19, 2020, 08:33:47 AM
Out of all the requirement's in place, the shooting accuracy has me baffled. You would think they would want moa or better guys. Not pie plate at 200. Pie plate at 200 is a miss at 400. Maybe they will take accuracy into consideration for the final cut.
I agree I was surprised with that one too. I was thinking shooting offhand is what they were talking about. That would make some sense. With a rest that would be a total joke.
Post by: kselkhunter on April 19, 2020, 08:40:15 AM
Lots of qualified teams will get into the "qualified" pool. From there it's pure luck of getting lottery selected as one of the final 18.
Post by: idaho guy on April 19, 2020, 08:59:46 AM
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 19, 2020, 09:02:27 AM
Post by: idaho guy on April 19, 2020, 09:03:16 AM
My team has an alcoholic sexaholic and a workaholic, we’re screwed!!!
You’re screwed my team has 2 confirmed alcoholics and suspect potential 2 more. Heck we might have at least 4!
Post by: actionshooter on April 19, 2020, 09:03:41 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on April 19, 2020, 09:11:46 AM
Post by: jackelope on April 19, 2020, 09:17:20 AM
I put in with a group of four. Before hearing about 200 groups applying I thought we had a decent shot but now not so much. We are all knuckle dragging USMC infantry guys and one army infantry guy. All with decent mountaineering experience and lots of wilderness hunting and backpacking. I think out of 200 groups there will be some hard groups to beat out.ya, but I imagine most of the out of state groups will have a hard time making the cut
I don't. This is a federal job, not a Washington job. People pay 1000's to go hunting, back packing, and recreating. If your qualified, you're qualified. I know a few of the out of state teams and if they weren't selected as qualified I don't know who would be. This is objective. Where you are from won't and shouldn't make a difference.
And if by off chance you are referring to knowing the area....for the disadvantage to out of state. If you have killed a mountain goat or hunted wilderness in the rockies, alaska, or guided in BC, you are as qualified as anyone that has been to, traveled in, or hunted the OP. Goat country is goat country. Its the steepest, meanest, toughest terrain no matter what state you're in, and Washington is not the only state with goats and high country wilderness.
I disagree. I’ve killed a mountain goat. One of the easier 6 mile hikes to where I killed mine in my hiking experience. I’ve got no business claiming I’m qualified to make a potentially 18 mile one way hike at least partially off trail into that country. There are major differences in mountain goat country even in just this state. Baker is 100% different than where I hunted which is also vastly different than other parts of the state. The areas where the goats are on this project is big giant country.
Post by: kselkhunter on April 19, 2020, 09:30:09 AM
I put in with a group of four. Before hearing about 200 groups applying I thought we had a decent shot but now not so much. We are all knuckle dragging USMC infantry guys and one army infantry guy. All with decent mountaineering experience and lots of wilderness hunting and backpacking. I think out of 200 groups there will be some hard groups to beat out.ya, but I imagine most of the out of state groups will have a hard time making the cut
I don't. This is a federal job, not a Washington job. People pay 1000's to go hunting, back packing, and recreating. If your qualified, you're qualified. I know a few of the out of state teams and if they weren't selected as qualified I don't know who would be. This is objective. Where you are from won't and shouldn't make a difference.
And if by off chance you are referring to knowing the area....for the disadvantage to out of state. If you have killed a mountain goat or hunted wilderness in the rockies, alaska, or guided in BC, you are as qualified as anyone that has been to, traveled in, or hunted the OP. Goat country is goat country. Its the steepest, meanest, toughest terrain no matter what state you're in, and Washington is not the only state with goats and high country wilderness.
I disagree. I’ve killed a mountain goat. One of the easier 6 mile hikes to where I killed mine in my hiking experience. I’ve got no business claiming I’m qualified to make a potentially 18 mile one way hike at least partially off trail into that country. There are major differences in mountain goat country even in just this state. Baker is 100% different than where I hunted which is also vastly different than other parts of the state. The areas where the goats are on this project is big giant country.
Many teams, if selected, are planning on using pack animals to get base camp in and goat meat out.....
And the assigned areas are small. Range from 2 miles by 2 miles to 3 miles by 5 miles, roughly.
It won't be an easy project. But it will only be an 18 mile slog every day for those that choose to make it such....
In terms of out of state teams, I have out of state friends that are mountain rescue mountaineers but also backcountry hunters, with medics, etc. on their team. Those dudes will make the "qualified" pool just fine.
Post by: blindluck on April 19, 2020, 05:38:58 PM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on April 19, 2020, 06:07:46 PM
At this point it's a lottery like any other draw. I am sure a few applications will not make the cut due to some technical stuff. But my impression is the NPS didn't realize that some of the most remote backcountry use of public land is from folks who also know how to shoot and ride, not granola eating Arc'teryx models. It's not a contest of who is more qualified, but a question of who is going to have luck in the draw.
Post by: Vek on April 20, 2020, 11:24:37 AM
Post by: birddogdad on April 20, 2020, 11:58:18 AM
Post by: fishngamereaper on April 20, 2020, 12:03:20 PM
Post by: Vek on April 20, 2020, 12:28:50 PM
The sort of person who qualifies for this hunt isn't the sort that skyblasts at ducks...
Post by: Shawn Ryan on April 20, 2020, 05:49:50 PM
I take it that Ms. Happe understands the the ONP delivers its own specific brand of *^%$@ weather.
Post by: actionshooter on April 20, 2020, 05:53:20 PM
I take it that Ms. Happe understands the the ONP delivers its own specific brand of *^%$@ weather.
LOL especially in October...
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 20, 2020, 06:10:55 PM
Post by: nwalpineguide on April 20, 2020, 11:18:20 PM
Local experience, hunting or recreating in the Olympics in the fall will get added weight in the objective ranking process says Patti Happe, the NPS bio in charge of the removal process:
:yeah:
Agreed! In addition... might want to get your photo documentation in order as well. This to prove the assertions made on the application!
Post by: Onewhohikes on April 21, 2020, 05:59:48 AM
Post by: yakimanoob on April 21, 2020, 12:56:06 PM
In terms of out of state teams, I have out of state friends that are mountain rescue mountaineers but also backcountry hunters, with medics, etc. on their team. Those dudes will make the "qualified" pool just fine.
Well I sure do hope so, as that pretty well describes my group but in-state :tup:
Post by: engelwood on April 21, 2020, 02:55:56 PM
Post by: Houndhunter on April 21, 2020, 02:57:03 PM
Received an email from Ms. Happe today letting me know that she estimates 1,000 groups applied in total. Good luck to all! :tup:
:yike:
Post by: birddogdad on April 21, 2020, 03:32:35 PM
as expected, another lottery draw hunt that will be like the rest i do in WA state.... Site discusses informed by June 1 of team selections.
Post by: Bob33 on April 21, 2020, 03:53:20 PM
Post by: idaho guy on April 21, 2020, 04:05:23 PM
I hope it is a resounding success. There are quite a few national parks that could use some select wildlife reduction actions like this.
:yeah: This could be great for future culls and actually using hunters instead of paid sharpshooters
Post by: jackelope on April 21, 2020, 04:06:35 PM
Received an email from Ms. Happe today letting me know that she estimates 1,000 groups applied in total. Good luck to all! :tup:
Holy. Hell.
Post by: Bob33 on April 21, 2020, 04:16:38 PM
Received an email from Ms. Happe today letting me know that she estimates 1,000 groups applied in total. Good luck to all! :tup:I would bet good money that list can be cut to 100 pretty quickly. Incomplete applications, obviously incompetent applicants, etc.
Post by: kselkhunter on April 21, 2020, 04:22:43 PM
Received an email from Ms. Happe today letting me know that she estimates 1,000 groups applied in total. Good luck to all! :tup:
Wow that's a lot of last minute applications. The number was at 200 the day before the deadline...…
Post by: stlusn30-06 on April 21, 2020, 05:09:28 PM
I've summitted ~20 difficult/very difficult peaks around WA, but the last one was over 10 years ago. Since then, a handful of backcountry hunts. After understanding what the quality of teams looked like; the guys I was attached to and I didn't even bother. This whole thing has become inspiration for a few of us to never not make the team again. We're already putting training regimens in place, stocking up on climbing gear, registered for (likely cancelled) wilderness rescue courses etc...The opportunity will almost surely never arise again, but if it does we'll be ready. For those that make it, congratulations! and well done for having the foundation in place to be ready when the knock at the door came.
Post by: Shawn Ryan on April 22, 2020, 09:36:47 PM
I had a pretty solid conversation with Dr. Happe.
Did she say whether she had over 1,000 team or individual applications?
Post by: actionshooter on April 22, 2020, 10:48:54 PM
I had a pretty solid conversation with Dr. Happe.
Did she say whether she had over 1,000 team or individual applications?
Curios here also... 1000 apps is almost unbelievable..
Post by: Dark2Dark on April 22, 2020, 11:23:33 PM
I had a pretty solid conversation with Dr. Happe.
Did she say whether she had over 1,000 team or individual applications?
Curios here also... 1000 apps is almost unbelievable..
Looks like about 33,000 individuals applied for goat hunts last year in Washington. This got a lot of out of state attention, as well. That number of groups doesn’t seem to crazy to me! A totally unique opportunity.
Post by: Colville on April 22, 2020, 11:38:35 PM
Post by: Onewhohikes on April 23, 2020, 05:47:42 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 23, 2020, 06:50:18 AM
Post by: Jpmiller on April 23, 2020, 07:54:37 AM
Post by: James on April 23, 2020, 08:06:04 AM
I have pretty limited experience in the Rockies of Wyoming but it wasn't exactly nice welcoming country. I wouldn't say someone from out of state doesn't know steep country like the Cascades or Olympics. That feels like a local bias to me.
It's more than just steepness, Olympics have a lot of factors that make them challenging. They are steep and jagged and much of the rock is chossy and loose. It's a high humidly coastal range, so the snow/glacier is...umm... interesting. The weather is something that you don't get outside of maybe SE alaska. That is why they are putting emphasis on local experience.
My team is pretty solid and well rounded, hoping we get lucky in the lottery.
Post by: Jpmiller on April 23, 2020, 08:07:31 AM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on April 23, 2020, 08:30:18 AM
Post by: idaho guy on April 23, 2020, 09:20:52 AM
I have pretty limited experience in the Rockies of Wyoming but it wasn't exactly nice welcoming country. I wouldn't say someone from out of state doesn't know steep country like the Cascades or Olympics. That feels like a local bias to me.
I have hunted selway and a ton in hell’s canyon Idaho most of the units. Also did quite a bit in se Alaska do it yourself. Also successfully harvested a sheep in one of the unlimited Montana sheep hunts. That hunt was solo but I had a buddy help with final pack out. I am least qualified on my team but agree that’s locals thinking most guys don’t know how “tough” it really is. There is places with worse weather and terrain all over the west. I think more local hunters feel like it’s a Washington thing (I get that) it’s not it’s federal. I don’t think we will get picked because my teams applications were actually modest compared to actual experience and I think there will be a lot of exaggeration involved. Plus one guy said he would send his direct on his own and I think they may toss us for incompleteness. I agree they will use any small error or incomplete app as a way to toss just to whittle the number quick
Post by: birddogdad on April 23, 2020, 09:28:29 AM
Post by: stlusn30-06 on April 23, 2020, 09:33:52 AM
I had a pretty solid conversation with Dr. Happe.
Did she say whether she had over 1,000 team or individual applications?
I spoke to her two days after the announcement. Unfortunately no insight on number of apps.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 23, 2020, 09:48:40 AM
Do you guys really think they will do any real research and reading all these applications? Highly unlikely. I don't care how "qualified" your team is, whether they have summited every peak in the Park and Everest twice are a goat guide and live in a cave. Unless that application is pulled it is irrelevant. When overwhelmed with applications ( yes I believe they are), it becomes a triaging process. They have a criteria. The baseline is pretty clearly outlined. They don't care who gets picked as long as they are at or above the minimum qualifications. If there was 30 applications, sure they very well might rank them. But 200? 500? 1000? No way. They will cut any incomplete, or incompetently filled, then begin picking from the rest. Several folks have commented here and other places and the good lady at NPS is overwhelmed. She is telling folks whatever they need to hear, and moving them down the line. I could be wrong but that is how I see it. Good luck to all!I can completely see this being the way it goes down. She starts in on the apps. Sets aside the qualified as she gets to them. When she hits 30 then does the draw. Why go through all 500 or 1,000.
Post by: Stein on April 23, 2020, 09:56:20 AM
If there are 1,000 there will be a quick pass through, spending the minimum amount of time, like 5 seconds, and then draw. Check the winners more thoroughly to make sure they are all complete and meet the minimum and send it. It's a draw, not an award.
Post by: Rob on April 23, 2020, 10:44:05 AM
Quote
Selection Process:
Update: We will accept applications until the original cut-off date of April 17 because enough qualified groups have submitted applications. Emails must arrive by 5:00 pm PDT on April 17 and mail in applications must be postmarked by April 17 to be considered. Group applications will be evaluated using objective ranking criteria. We will select a maximum of 18 highly qualified groups (6 groups will be selected for each session). If more than 18 highly qualified groups apply, we will use a lottery system to randomly select which groups will participate. Groups that are selected for further consideration will be notified by June 1, 2020 and be required to submit forms signed by a physician by June 30.
We cannot accept incomplete applications. Please review your packet before you submit it.
Bold and underlined added by me.
They will probably remove all incomplete apps, and apps where someone checked a box saying they were not able to get a physicians note. Then I read the criteria as; they will assign some kind of numerical ranking to the key skills they think they want. Based on the application format, I would expect categories such as:
1. Back country experience
2. Mountaineering experience
3. First aid training
4. Experience volunteering with government agencies and interacting with the public/diffusing conflict
5. Backcountry navigation skills
6. Physical fitness
7. Marksmanship
From there, they will likely set a target minimum score, either per category or rolled up. This gets them their pool.
From there it becomes a drawing. So if 500 of the 1000 applications meet the minimum, and there are 18 team positions, the odds of winning would be 1 in 55.6 of winning the drawing.
Pretty simple! But all just deduction on my part.
Post by: Limhangerslayer on April 23, 2020, 12:56:55 PM
Did everybody on here make sure their while group signed and submitted it?
Post by: luvmystang67 on April 23, 2020, 01:04:43 PM
And saying you can't hunt A certain season hurts you too she said. You need to be open for all seasons all huntable areas that have goats. And we did our application as if it was an application for employment. Cover letter and the whole nine yards. If you don't stand out, you aren't noticed as much. My guess is quite a few people missed signing the social media code of conduct.
Did everybody on here make sure their while group signed and submitted it?
I asked and these were not required unless you were selected. This, drivers licenses, Dr notes, only were required after you were selected per an email from her.
I did limit my dates and areas due to a wedding. Plus there were several areas where there were 0-5 goats total. I didn't really want to miss the elk rut to hunt for one nanny for 10 days. Hopefully it doesn't kill our team's odds.
Post by: Rob on April 23, 2020, 01:25:22 PM
Quote
If, after reviewing the above materials, you would still like to apply, please have all members of your group:
Complete this application
Sign the health, firearms and background check form
https://www.nps.gov/olym/getinvolved/mountain-goat-management-how-to-volunteer.htm
Post by: milldozer on April 23, 2020, 02:03:31 PM
Post by: JM on April 28, 2020, 10:42:59 PM
Post by: tbrady on May 27, 2020, 09:14:27 AM
Post by: Onewhohikes on May 27, 2020, 09:49:27 AM
Post by: tbrady on May 27, 2020, 11:50:58 AM
Nope... and not really expecting too but curious if they have started sending out any notifications.
Post by: Rob on May 27, 2020, 12:42:50 PM
Quote
Mountain Goat Management - How to Volunteer
Application Period Closed: Thank you for your interest in this program. Due to the abundance of applications, we are no longer seeking volunteers. If you submitted a completed application by the deadline on April 17, you will be notified if you were selected by June 1.
https://www.nps.gov/olym/getinvolved/mountain-goat-management-how-to-volunteer.htm
Post by: tbrady on May 27, 2020, 01:46:35 PM
Post by: The Gobble-stopper on May 28, 2020, 06:29:56 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on May 28, 2020, 06:56:22 AM
It is my understanding, that it you get drawn then you sign the social media contract. And when that happens, you cannot even post that you were drawn! So makes sense to me that no one will post on here that they were picked on fear that they will be in big doo-doowhere are you reading that? There's nothing in the SM contract that says you cannot state you are a NPS volunteer :dunno:
Post by: The Gobble-stopper on May 29, 2020, 06:05:08 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on May 29, 2020, 07:05:28 AM
I was told second hand that words exchanged with someone involved with the picking process said that you are right, that you can say you are a volunteer but you cannot tell anyone what you are doing?? Maybe they are wrong, I have not talked to anyone personally that has read the contract.
This is it.
Post by: stew pidasso on May 30, 2020, 06:00:10 PM
Post by: Chad McMullen on May 30, 2020, 06:15:04 PM
From: Happe, Patricia J <Patti_Happe@nps.gov>
Date: Sat, May 30, 2020 at 4:43 PM
Subject: Olympic National Park Mountain Goat Management
To:
I want to thank you for taking the time to apply to be a mountain goat ground removal volunteer at Olympic National Park. The response to the call for volunteers was overwhelming, to say the least. When I pulled together all the individual emails and paper copies that came in the mail, I ended up with over 1,200 group applications.
I know the application was not a quick and easy endeavor to complete, and I am grateful for the time and effort that you put into completing the application. I am sorry that it has taken me so long to get back to you, but I needed the time to carefully pull together all the emails into group application packets, and then read and evaluate them all.
The pool of applicants that I received was very impressive, and I regret that I can accept so few. As I described in the webpage, I evaluated all the applications, and pulled out those that were the most highly qualified. From that pool I then did a random draw of 40 applications, asked some colleagues from the NPS and WDFW to review that more restricted pool, and selected 21 groups (yes – 3 more than I originally intended).
As I am sure you can surmise, unfortunately your application was not selected.
I am sorry for the form letter nature of this email, but I know that people want to hear if they were selected as soon as possible, and this is the quickest way I can reach out to everyone.
I am only emailing the group leader (or the team member that corresponded with me if the leader did not supply an email or I could not read their writing). Please pass this email on to the rest of you team members for me.
Thank you again for offering to assist Olympic National Park and our partners in implementing our mountain goat management plan.
Patti Happe
Wildlife Branch Chief
Olympic National Park
600 E Park Ave
Port Angeles WA 98362
office phone: 360.565.3065
Post by: blindluck on May 30, 2020, 06:15:50 PM
Post by: Shawn Ryan on May 30, 2020, 09:12:51 PM
Post by: High Climber on May 30, 2020, 11:11:53 PM
Post by: HillHound on May 31, 2020, 05:14:45 AM
Post by: Onewhohikes on May 31, 2020, 05:19:41 AM
Post by: bearpaw on May 31, 2020, 05:22:37 AM
Post by: fishngamereaper on May 31, 2020, 06:22:01 AM
Maybe they selected groups that had experienced USDA wildlife control agents?
That was my thought to, or currently licensed guides. :dunno:
Post by: WSU on May 31, 2020, 06:38:59 AM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on May 31, 2020, 06:42:52 AM
Maybe they selected groups that had experienced USDA wildlife control agents?
That was my thought to, or currently licensed guides. :dunno:
She did not.
Her process is very clear in the letter.
Post by: HillHound on May 31, 2020, 06:52:17 AM
Post by: Rob on May 31, 2020, 06:56:33 AM
I know of one team selected with only mountaineering and extensive hunting experience.
Post by: nwhunter on May 31, 2020, 07:36:17 AM
Post by: j_h_nimrod on May 31, 2020, 08:02:28 AM
Narrow it down to all the well qualified teams, randomly narrow it to 40, and then have a panel pull the top 21 from that. There is a lot of luck to being chosen in that methodology.
Post by: tbrady on May 31, 2020, 08:15:33 AM
Post by: kselkhunter on May 31, 2020, 09:07:47 AM
Post by: Chukarhead on May 31, 2020, 09:09:08 AM
Like many others here, I believe there was a lot of luck involved--I don't know how many applications were circular-filed right off the bat, but I know that there were a lot of groups that were more qualified on goat/sheep hunting than my group is. We don't have any guides, federal employees or contractors, etc.
I don't have any insight on the selection process beyond what's published. I will say that our application was tight and tidy. One-page cover letter summarizing our team experience, qualifications and proposed approach, followed by a one-page bio sheet of team members, followed by all required forms, all wrapped up in a single PDF. We figured it would go to a draw, but didn't want to provide any reason to be disqualified out of the gate. Anyone who has done hiring knows that drill.
When it came down to winnowing those final 40 groups to 21, we may have had an advantage (just guessing here) because we emphasized our team members' experience in field science, natural resource management, conflict resolution, and public relations on sensitive topics. I'm 100% sure that we weren't the most experienced hunters or mountaineers, but that's only one piece of this, and probably not the most important to the managers. One member will probably do all or nearly all the trigger-pulling with a suppressed precision rifle, and we only have two shooters designated. This is a lethal removal operation, not a hunt, and we put that front and center in our materials.
Good luck to others that were drawn. May the clouds be high and the wind always in your face.
Post by: stew pidasso on May 31, 2020, 10:22:25 AM
Post by: Chukarhead on May 31, 2020, 10:25:58 AM
How was your group selected chukarhead? Email, phone.
BCC email to the group leaders of the selected groups for that date range of the operation. I presume there were three such emails sent. We submitted our application by email; not sure about how paper apps were handled.
Post by: stew pidasso on May 31, 2020, 10:28:20 AM
Post by: Dan-o on May 31, 2020, 11:29:41 AM
My guess is that final vetting included winnowing out qualified groups with members that post stupid stuff on line.
Post by: Jonathan_S on May 31, 2020, 11:46:09 AM
Post by: Dan-o on May 31, 2020, 11:50:16 AM
No way they're being that methodical. If they were willing to throw out 60 of the top 100 based on a randomized draw, I seriously doubt they'll be digging that deep.
You could be right.
Narrowing it down to 40 doesn't mean they didn't vette the finalists.
It's just a guess on my end, based on how concerned they are about the optics.
Either way, I'm glad some folks get to help.
Post by: Rob on May 31, 2020, 12:33:44 PM
Post by: Dan-o on May 31, 2020, 12:41:12 PM
Either way, it could be an interesting adventure.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on May 31, 2020, 01:23:24 PM
Post by: idaho guy on May 31, 2020, 03:19:30 PM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on May 31, 2020, 08:31:50 PM
Post by: Buckjunkie on May 31, 2020, 08:41:23 PM
Probably gave it to some liars who pumped their stats.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on May 31, 2020, 09:20:19 PM
I know some guys who applied with 21 goats between them, hunted all over the world and they were not selected.or they just didn't get drawn :dunno: I know everyone had the best team ever assembled but 60 teams DIDN'T get pulled in a random draw.
Probably gave it to some liars who pumped their stats.
Post by: jackelope on May 31, 2020, 09:21:54 PM
I know some guys who applied with 21 goats between them, hunted all over the world and they were not selected.
Probably gave it to some liars who pumped their stats.
MG?
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on May 31, 2020, 10:01:34 PM
Post by: pd on May 31, 2020, 10:19:12 PM
Its important to remember this is a pilot program, odds are good those in charge did not forecast or understand the level of interest this would generate. Rumors are some big names in the hunting industry put teams together along with thousands of very accomplished hunters. In hindsight leading with a draw and then vetting those drawn may have been the better option. Again IMO they were planning to rank 40 applications for 20 positions. Receiving 1200 changes that drastically.
That never occurred to me as a possibility. What if “that famous TV hunter guy” applied?
What a thankless task to choose the teams.
Not selected, by the way.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on May 31, 2020, 10:29:44 PM
Its important to remember this is a pilot program, odds are good those in charge did not forecast or understand the level of interest this would generate. Rumors are some big names in the hunting industry put teams together along with thousands of very accomplished hunters. In hindsight leading with a draw and then vetting those drawn may have been the better option. Again IMO they were planning to rank 40 applications for 20 positions. Receiving 1200 changes that drastically.In the past, during comment periods regarding eradicating goats, the mention of thousands of hunters willing to pay thousands each were made to park officials. They had been informed that many people are waiting years and years to go after a goat. So, there should have been some idea that they were going to get a flood of applications. Probably would've got a thousand more applications if the deadline was pushed another week.
Post by: Limhangerslayer on May 31, 2020, 10:34:25 PM
I talked to her Friday and she mentioned the fact that with covid-19 being a problem out of state or major travel groups were pretty much thrown out from the beginning. We made it top the 100 but go figure with our awesome draw odds we didn't get to the 40! :chuckle:Its important to remember this is a pilot program, odds are good those in charge did not forecast or understand the level of interest this would generate. Rumors are some big names in the hunting industry put teams together along with thousands of very accomplished hunters. In hindsight leading with a draw and then vetting those drawn may have been the better option. Again IMO they were planning to rank 40 applications for 20 positions. Receiving 1200 changes that drastically.
That never occurred to me as a possibility. What if “that famous TV hunter guy” applied?
What a thankless task to choose the teams.
Not selected, by the way.
Post by: Buckjunkie on June 01, 2020, 06:43:15 AM
I know some guys who applied with 21 goats between them, hunted all over the world and they were not selected.
Probably gave it to some liars who pumped their stats.
MG?
Yes
Post by: birddogdad on June 01, 2020, 07:39:38 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 01, 2020, 07:44:46 AM
was a lottery from the start, no real defined criteria, steven king write ups would prob win them over. kind of expected the results and would expect nothing less from the process... fail for sureI disagree. Patti is one squared away chick and I think she has done a great job through the whole process. They had a vetting system and at the end of the day only 21 teams out of 1,200 could be selected.
Post by: Limhangerslayer on June 01, 2020, 07:51:57 AM
:yeah: as busy as she was Friday, she took time to talk and was very informative. I forgot to ask her about the 18 Aaron's with two A's though! :chuckle:was a lottery from the start, no real defined criteria, steven king write ups would prob win them over. kind of expected the results and would expect nothing less from the process... fail for sureI disagree. Patti is one squared away chick and I think she has done a great job through the whole process. They had a vetting system and at the end of the day only 21 teams out of 1,200 could be selected.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on June 01, 2020, 08:02:19 AM
I was kind of surprised it gone done so quickly. Pretty sure she's a school board member and something else that takes up time--her name is on the ballot at times.:yeah: as busy as she was Friday, she took time to talk and was very informative. I forgot to ask her about the 18 Aaron's with two A's though! :chuckle:was a lottery from the start, no real defined criteria, steven king write ups would prob win them over. kind of expected the results and would expect nothing less from the process... fail for sureI disagree. Patti is one squared away chick and I think she has done a great job through the whole process. They had a vetting system and at the end of the day only 21 teams out of 1,200 could be selected.
Post by: fishngamereaper on June 01, 2020, 08:06:07 AM
Post by: luvmystang67 on June 01, 2020, 08:08:14 AM
Post by: O. Nerka on June 01, 2020, 08:20:04 AM
I would agree. I'm impressed with the level of communication from her.was a lottery from the start, no real defined criteria, steven king write ups would prob win them over. kind of expected the results and would expect nothing less from the process... fail for sureI disagree. Patti is one squared away chick and I think she has done a great job through the whole process. They had a vetting system and at the end of the day only 21 teams out of 1,200 could be selected.
Post by: Snakeriver on June 01, 2020, 08:24:46 AM
Post by: luvmystang67 on June 01, 2020, 08:52:31 AM
Did everyone who applied get an email response. I have not got anything back yet.
Every group leader did.
Post by: CLARKTAR on June 01, 2020, 08:53:33 AM
Post by: stew pidasso on June 01, 2020, 09:01:10 AM
Post by: CLARKTAR on June 01, 2020, 09:08:27 AM
Post by: stew pidasso on June 01, 2020, 09:10:16 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 01, 2020, 09:11:29 AM
Post by: stlusn30-06 on June 01, 2020, 09:31:40 AM
:yeah: I spoke with her the day after the announcement was made, and she spent a half hour talking me through the program, qualifications, outcomes, national implications, etc... She and her team did a phenomenal job in responding to everyone I heard of that reached out for personal communication, they pushed through reviewing all of these apps, and are fully supporting bringing in hunters to assist with this effort. When I talked to her she mentioned this was the first time the NPS was bringing hunters into this kind of terrain, to assist with removal of a species that live in this kind of habitat. There are national eyes on this, and the outcome will help dictate if these opportunities come up in other Parks. She was in no way taking any of this lightly. She deserves accolades from the WA hunt community for the support and effort she's put in. This is a great example of the Federal Gov't using all management techniques available, partnering with the sportsman's community, and acting in a fiscally responsible manner. Lets avoid disparaging the work she and her teams put into this.I was kind of surprised it gone done so quickly. Pretty sure she's a school board member and something else that takes up time--her name is on the ballot at times.:yeah: as busy as she was Friday, she took time to talk and was very informative. I forgot to ask her about the 18 Aaron's with two A's though! :chuckle:was a lottery from the start, no real defined criteria, steven king write ups would prob win them over. kind of expected the results and would expect nothing less from the process... fail for sureI disagree. Patti is one squared away chick and I think she has done a great job through the whole process. They had a vetting system and at the end of the day only 21 teams out of 1,200 could be selected.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on June 01, 2020, 09:33:40 AM
Sounds like winners were in a group email. Lot of losers to be notified. I got my loser email like 9hrs after I heard emails were going out and I bet I refreshed it 900 times :chuckle:You also had a full on series of heart attacks for the 12 minutes we were out of phone service! :chuckle:
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on June 01, 2020, 09:38:45 AM
:yeah: I spoke with her the day after the announcement was made, and she spent a half hour talking me through the program, qualifications, outcomes, national implications, etc... She and her team did a phenomenal job in responding to everyone I heard of that reached out for personal communication, they pushed through reviewing all of these apps, and are fully supporting bringing in hunters to assist with this effort. When I talked to her she mentioned this was the first time the NPS was bringing hunters into this kind of terrain, to assist with removal of a species that live in this kind of habitat. There are national eyes on this, and the outcome will help dictate if these opportunities come up in other Parks. She was in no way taking any of this lightly. She deserves accolades from the WA hunt community for the support and effort she's put in. This is a great example of the Federal Gov't using all management techniques available, partnering with the sportsman's community, and acting in a fiscally responsible manner. Lets avoid disparaging the work she and her teams put into this.I was kind of surprised it gone done so quickly. Pretty sure she's a school board member and something else that takes up time--her name is on the ballot at times.:yeah: as busy as she was Friday, she took time to talk and was very informative. I forgot to ask her about the 18 Aaron's with two A's though! :chuckle:was a lottery from the start, no real defined criteria, steven king write ups would prob win them over. kind of expected the results and would expect nothing less from the process... fail for sureI disagree. Patti is one squared away chick and I think she has done a great job through the whole process. They had a vetting system and at the end of the day only 21 teams out of 1,200 could be selected.
:yeah:
Spot on :tup:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 01, 2020, 09:42:09 AM
[/quote]
well said and I 100% agree. Like I said before, everyone thinks they had the best team ever but I always refer back to some wise words an old coach of mine told us once and that was there is always someone out there that is better than you and working harder to be better than you. That usually rings true. Congrats to the successful teams should be a more appropriate response than "we got screwed because people lied on their apps". :twocents:
Post by: birddogdad on June 01, 2020, 09:44:07 AM
was a lottery from the start, no real defined criteria, steven king write ups would prob win them over. kind of expected the results and would expect nothing less from the process... fail for sureI disagree. Patti is one squared away chick and I think she has done a great job through the whole process. They had a vetting system and at the end of the day only 21 teams out of 1,200 could be selected.
i disagree with your assessment of my assessment... heheh.. not questioning her part really but having no published criteria to reference and discuss, left input to your best guess in what they needed for selection perspective.. putting down the basics asked in forms, i am fairly certain that most groups are very much "qualified". Selecting the best 40 resumes was really not what the initial advertised NPS implied, something about the first 18 qualified groups i think i recall reading in posts.. .. i know i personally pushed to get our paperwork in not going into gross detail of what they may have ultimately wanted to read to set apart from groups. good on the professionals who have resumes to travel the world but ALL qualified groups should have been put in that hat of selection.. Kind of reminds me of job fairs for the shipyard in Bremerton... 4000 applicants - 200 jobs.. tough perspective :twocents:, but i can tell you with all honesty, that my group was equipped and qualified or i would not have submitted for this, not my style..... (not that i ever expected selection with the numbers of groups, spoke this perspective from the first day i heard over 1000 groups. just thought they would have made it more a open lottery from all those meeting criteria rather than a ranked system)
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on June 01, 2020, 10:04:03 AM
Post by: birddogdad on June 01, 2020, 10:25:16 AM
They were. :dunno: Maybe my reading comprehension was off, but the MINIMUM qualifications seemed very clear to me. After that came preferred experience. They assembled the pool of highly qualified based on those subjective preferences. That also seemed clear to me. After that it was luck, due to sheer volume of applicants.
your stating my position.. minimum to qualify, not top 40 and lotto... based on excess info provided fact or fiction..
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on June 01, 2020, 10:35:28 AM
Post by: WSU on June 01, 2020, 10:36:50 AM
Hopefully it goes well and NPS uses these types of programs in the future.
Post by: Chukarhead on June 01, 2020, 10:43:44 AM
They were. :dunno: Maybe my reading comprehension was off, but the MINIMUM qualifications seemed very clear to me. After that came preferred experience. They assembled the pool of highly qualified based on those subjective preferences. That also seemed clear to me. After that it was luck, due to sheer volume of applicants.
your stating my position.. minimum to qualify, not top 40 and lotto... based on excess info provided fact or fiction..
I'm not looking for an argument here, but my understanding from the email was that the 40 applications were the result of a random draw from all qualified applications (my assumption is that the pool of qualified applications was very, very large). Those 40 pulled randomly were winnowed down to the final 21 under greater scrutiny from a collection of NPS and WDFW folks.
I understand that I'm biased in this opinion, but it seems very much like Dr. Happe/NPS is doing absolutely everything reasonable people could ask of her/them in this situation. The level of information developed for the lethal removal phase and the amount of coordination required between all phases of this operation is really astounding. I've been thoroughly impressed.
Post by: birddogdad on June 01, 2020, 10:52:57 AM
They were. :dunno: Maybe my reading comprehension was off, but the MINIMUM qualifications seemed very clear to me. After that came preferred experience. They assembled the pool of highly qualified based on those subjective preferences. That also seemed clear to me. After that it was luck, due to sheer volume of applicants.
your stating my position.. minimum to qualify, not top 40 and lotto... based on excess info provided fact or fiction..
I'm not looking for an argument here, but my understanding from the email was that the 40 applications were the result of a random draw from all qualified applications (my assumption is that the pool of qualified applications was very, very large). Those 40 pulled randomly were winnowed down to the final 21 under greater scrutiny from a collection of NPS and WDFW folks.
I understand that I'm biased in this opinion, but it seems very much like Dr. Happe/NPS is doing absolutely everything reasonable people could ask of her/them in this situation. The level of information developed for the lethal removal phase and the amount of coordination required between all phases of this operation is really astounding. I've been thoroughly impressed.
"I evaluated all the applications, and pulled out those that were the most highly qualified. From that pool I then did a random draw of 40 applications, asked some colleagues from the NPS and WDFW to review that more restricted pool, and selected 21 groups (yes – 3 more than I originally intended)."
most highly qualified and qualified are very different in meaning, again making the original submission standard criteria different than expectations …. quote directly from my email reply.. not going to argue, just stating facts here.. :dunno:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 01, 2020, 11:03:36 AM
Post by: Limhangerslayer on June 01, 2020, 11:05:12 AM
just accept it, you didn't get drawn. You act like you were going to change your application if you knew more info? :dunno: you should of put the truth no matter what, and I'm not saying you didn't. But in your replies, if you would of known a way to stretch your app a little you'd of done it? Either way, just be happy that there are some hunters that deserve just as much as you think you do that will be going in to hunt some goats.They were. :dunno: Maybe my reading comprehension was off, but the MINIMUM qualifications seemed very clear to me. After that came preferred experience. They assembled the pool of highly qualified based on those subjective preferences. That also seemed clear to me. After that it was luck, due to sheer volume of applicants.
your stating my position.. minimum to qualify, not top 40 and lotto... based on excess info provided fact or fiction..
I'm not looking for an argument here, but my understanding from the email was that the 40 applications were the result of a random draw from all qualified applications (my assumption is that the pool of qualified applications was very, very large). Those 40 pulled randomly were winnowed down to the final 21 under greater scrutiny from a collection of NPS and WDFW folks.
I understand that I'm biased in this opinion, but it seems very much like Dr. Happe/NPS is doing absolutely everything reasonable people could ask of her/them in this situation. The level of information developed for the lethal removal phase and the amount of coordination required between all phases of this operation is really astounding. I've been thoroughly impressed.
"I evaluated all the applications, and pulled out those that were the most highly qualified. From that pool I then did a random draw of 40 applications, asked some colleagues from the NPS and WDFW to review that more restricted pool, and selected 21 groups (yes – 3 more than I originally intended)."
most highly qualified and qualified are very different in meaning, again making the original submission standard criteria different than expectations …. quote directly from my email reply.. not going to argue, just stating facts here.. :dunno:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 01, 2020, 11:10:26 AM
Also, this isn't a state run lottery. I feel they went above and beyond. Patti could have dropped apps simply because a name was hard to pronounce but she didn't. She went through a lot of effort to make this as fair and calculated as she could. :twocents:
Post by: bearpaw on June 01, 2020, 11:19:13 AM
Post by: stlusn30-06 on June 01, 2020, 11:26:39 AM
They were. :dunno: Maybe my reading comprehension was off, but the MINIMUM qualifications seemed very clear to me. After that came preferred experience. They assembled the pool of highly qualified based on those subjective preferences. That also seemed clear to me. After that it was luck, due to sheer volume of applicants.
your stating my position.. minimum to qualify, not top 40 and lotto... based on excess info provided fact or fiction..
I'm not looking for an argument here, but my understanding from the email was that the 40 applications were the result of a random draw from all qualified applications (my assumption is that the pool of qualified applications was very, very large). Those 40 pulled randomly were winnowed down to the final 21 under greater scrutiny from a collection of NPS and WDFW folks.
I understand that I'm biased in this opinion, but it seems very much like Dr. Happe/NPS is doing absolutely everything reasonable people could ask of her/them in this situation. The level of information developed for the lethal removal phase and the amount of coordination required between all phases of this operation is really astounding. I've been thoroughly impressed.
"I evaluated all the applications, and pulled out those that were the most highly qualified. From that pool I then did a random draw of 40 applications, asked some colleagues from the NPS and WDFW to review that more restricted pool, and selected 21 groups (yes – 3 more than I originally intended)."
most highly qualified and qualified are very different in meaning, again making the original submission standard criteria different than expectations …. quote directly from my email reply.. not going to argue, just stating facts here.. :dunno:
It seems one of the points being lost here is that this wasn't a hunt lottery. The NPS was taking applications to become (while being volunteers) employees. These teams will be covered by NPS insurance, employment laws, etc....It makes no sense to put lottery like stipulations on an employment opportunity. Of course they took the "most highly qualified". Any employer would. With the number of apps received, they did their best to make the opportunity as fair as possible for the teams that had the best applicants. Seems to me it was as fair as possible in the context of what it actually was.
Post by: opdinkslayer on June 01, 2020, 11:47:54 AM
Post by: MtnMuley on June 01, 2020, 11:54:03 AM
Not too upset that we won't be getting the chance to participate, but a bit surprised.
Hope this hunt gets the chance to operate fully for those selected without any unnecessary drama. :tup:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 01, 2020, 11:56:09 AM
I wish they would have made each group show up for a one day competition on all aspects of this hunt. Although I'm sure there were A LOT of super qualified teams, I will never believe there were 21 better qualified (Every Aspect) for this hunt that ours with the criteria given. :twocents:and I'd want them to sell tickets to that comp so I could watch! That would be some entertainment :chuckle:
Not too upset that we won't be getting the chance to participate, but a bit surprised.
Hope this hunt gets the chance to operate fully for those selected without any unnecessary drama. :tup:
Post by: cougforester on June 01, 2020, 12:07:00 PM
Wonder if a PDR can be done to get the apps of those selected...
Post by: hunterednate on June 01, 2020, 12:12:36 PM
I wish they would have made each group show up for a one day competition on all aspects of this hunt. Although I'm sure there were A LOT of super qualified teams, I will never believe there were 21 better qualified (Every Aspect) for this hunt that ours with the criteria given. :twocents:and I'd want them to sell tickets to that comp so I could watch! That would be some entertainment :chuckle:
Not too upset that we won't be getting the chance to participate, but a bit surprised.
Hope this hunt gets the chance to operate fully for those selected without any unnecessary drama. :tup:
I've thought they should have cashed in and made this a televised reality show series from the beginning. Like The Bachelor, but instead of getting a rose when you're selected, they hand you a .338 Lapua.
Post by: Skillet on June 01, 2020, 12:17:08 PM
Post by: opdinkslayer on June 01, 2020, 12:30:38 PM
I wish they would have made each group show up for a one day competition on all aspects of this hunt. Although I'm sure there were A LOT of super qualified teams, I will never believe there were 21 better qualified (Every Aspect) for this hunt that ours with the criteria given. :twocents:
Not too upset that we won't be getting the chance to participate, but a bit surprised.
Hope this hunt gets the chance to operate fully for those selected without any unnecessary drama. :tup:
It’s the ONP is a federal agency, of course there will be unnecessary drama. :chuckle:
Post by: MtnMuley on June 01, 2020, 12:34:57 PM
I wish they would have made each group show up for a one day competition on all aspects of this hunt. Although I'm sure there were A LOT of super qualified teams, I will never believe there were 21 better qualified (Every Aspect) for this hunt that ours with the criteria given. :twocents:and I'd want them to sell tickets to that comp so I could watch! That would be some entertainment :chuckle:
Not too upset that we won't be getting the chance to participate, but a bit surprised.
Hope this hunt gets the chance to operate fully for those selected without any unnecessary drama. :tup:
We could always show up at the trailheads opening day with Inslee shirts and protest those goat killers :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on June 01, 2020, 12:51:51 PM
Post by: TooTallMike on June 01, 2020, 01:13:57 PM
I wish they would have made each group show up for a one day competition on all aspects of this hunt. Although I'm sure there were A LOT of super qualified teams, I will never believe there were 21 better qualified (Every Aspect) for this hunt that ours with the criteria given. :twocents:and I'd want them to sell tickets to that comp so I could watch! That would be some entertainment :chuckle:
Not too upset that we won't be getting the chance to participate, but a bit surprised.
Hope this hunt gets the chance to operate fully for those selected without any unnecessary drama. :tup:
We could always show up at the trailheads opening day with Inslee shirts and protest those goat killers :chuckle: :chuckle:
This is the way 😂😂
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on June 01, 2020, 01:40:04 PM
I wish they would have made each group show up for a one day competition on all aspects of this hunt. Although I'm sure there were A LOT of super qualified teams, I will never believe there were 21 better qualified (Every Aspect) for this hunt that ours with the criteria given. :twocents:and I'd want them to sell tickets to that comp so I could watch! That would be some entertainment :chuckle:
Not too upset that we won't be getting the chance to participate, but a bit surprised.
Hope this hunt gets the chance to operate fully for those selected without any unnecessary drama. :tup:
We could always show up at the trailheads opening day with Inslee shirts and protest those goat killers :chuckle: :chuckle:
Mines in the mail.😉
Post by: HikerHunter on June 01, 2020, 01:53:22 PM
Post by: stew pidasso on June 01, 2020, 02:50:42 PM
Post by: Houndhunter on June 01, 2020, 02:59:32 PM
Good luck to the successful applicants, this is a true hunt of a lifetime
Post by: sagemd on June 02, 2020, 04:14:59 PM
This came about because of their huge failure.
Post by: stlusn30-06 on June 02, 2020, 05:19:00 PM
None of this would have been needed if the park service would have used the north American wildlife model (best in the world) to manage the wildlife (goats) inside the parks.
This came about because of their huge failure.
What exactly are you saying here? Are you saying that National Parks should be opened to hunting, and that should be a modification made to the North American wildlife model (best in the world)?
Post by: scudmaster on June 02, 2020, 05:54:13 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on June 02, 2020, 08:04:55 PM
Post by: actionshooter on June 02, 2020, 09:46:22 PM
[/quote]
:yeah: I spoke with her the day after the announcement was made, and she spent a half hour talking me through the program, qualifications, outcomes, national implications, etc... She and her team did a phenomenal job in responding to everyone I heard of that reached out for personal communication, they pushed through reviewing all of these apps, and are fully supporting bringing in hunters to assist with this effort. When I talked to her she mentioned this was the first time the NPS was bringing hunters into this kind of terrain, to assist with removal of a species that live in this kind of habitat. There are national eyes on this, and the outcome will help dictate if these opportunities come up in other Parks. She was in no way taking any of this lightly. She deserves accolades from the WA hunt community for the support and effort she's put in. This is a great example of the Federal Gov't using all management techniques available, partnering with the sportsman's community, and acting in a fiscally responsible manner. Lets avoid disparaging the work she and her teams put into this.
[/quote]
Very well said...
Post by: fishngamereaper on June 02, 2020, 09:55:56 PM
Post by: bearpaw on June 02, 2020, 10:02:19 PM
:yeah: I spoke with her the day after the announcement was made, and she spent a half hour talking me through the program, qualifications, outcomes, national implications, etc... She and her team did a phenomenal job in responding to everyone I heard of that reached out for personal communication, they pushed through reviewing all of these apps, and are fully supporting bringing in hunters to assist with this effort. When I talked to her she mentioned this was the first time the NPS was bringing hunters into this kind of terrain, to assist with removal of a species that live in this kind of habitat. There are national eyes on this, and the outcome will help dictate if these opportunities come up in other Parks. She was in no way taking any of this lightly. She deserves accolades from the WA hunt community for the support and effort she's put in. This is a great example of the Federal Gov't using all management techniques available, partnering with the sportsman's community, and acting in a fiscally responsible manner. Lets avoid disparaging the work she and her teams put into this.
[/quote]
Very well said...
[/quote]
:yeah: agreed, very well put :tup:
Post by: buglebrush on June 02, 2020, 10:52:20 PM
Very strong likelyhood that there were groups that were "more qualified" than the groups that were ultimately selected that got nuked by the draw.:yeah:
Also, this isn't a state run lottery. I feel they went above and beyond. Patti could have dropped apps simply because a name was hard to pronounce but she didn't. She went through a lot of effort to make this as fair and calculated as she could. :twocents:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on June 03, 2020, 06:19:00 AM
Post by: luvmystang67 on June 03, 2020, 08:20:37 AM
Post by: stlusn30-06 on June 03, 2020, 09:52:49 AM
I did send Dr Happe a thank you, even though we were not selected. It is the most impressed I've been with a government employee in a while.
Ditto
Post by: sagemd on June 03, 2020, 06:19:13 PM
What I'm saying is the park service had known for decades that the goats were over populating and did nothing.
Now they are exterminating them. The wildlife and tax payer deserves better. They could have chosen the manage for a healthy population 30 or 40 years ago.
Yes. I'm saying they could have and should have had very regulated hunts.
They could have set any rules/requirements needed.
That is what they are doing know. Only it is to exterminate not manage. Probably to late to manage.
The park service created this problem.
No need to modify the north American wildlife model. It works great.
The park service has ignored it.
Post by: actionshooter on June 03, 2020, 08:01:45 PM
"What exactly are you saying here? Are you saying that National Parks should be opened to hunting, and that should be a modification made to the North American wildlife model (best in the world)?"Right or wrong, The plan was never to manage the heard, the plan was to completely remove them from the ecosystem and its been that way for at least 20 years....
What I'm saying is the park service had known for decades that the goats were over populating and did nothing.
Now they are exterminating them. The wildlife and tax payer deserves better. They could have chosen the manage for a healthy population 30 or 40 years ago.
Yes. I'm saying they could have and should have had very regulated hunts.
They could have set any rules/requirements needed.
That is what they are doing know. Only it is to exterminate not manage. Probably to late to manage.
The park service created this problem.
No need to modify the north American wildlife model. It works great.
The park service has ignored it.
Post by: Alchase on June 03, 2020, 08:03:02 PM
:yeah: I spoke with her the day after the announcement was made, and she spent a half hour talking me through the program, qualifications, outcomes, national implications, etc... She and her team did a phenomenal job in responding to everyone I heard of that reached out for personal communication, they pushed through reviewing all of these apps, and are fully supporting bringing in hunters to assist with this effort. When I talked to her she mentioned this was the first time the NPS was bringing hunters into this kind of terrain, to assist with removal of a species that live in this kind of habitat. There are national eyes on this, and the outcome will help dictate if these opportunities come up in other Parks. She was in no way taking any of this lightly. She deserves accolades from the WA hunt community for the support and effort she's put in. This is a great example of the Federal Gov't using all management techniques available, partnering with the sportsman's community, and acting in a fiscally responsible manner. Lets avoid disparaging the work she and her teams put into this.
Very well said...
[/quote]
:yeah: agreed, very well put :tup:
[/quote]
Who knows, if this goes well maybe it will lead to future "Hunter" coapration inside the NPS. :tup:
Post by: sagemd on June 03, 2020, 10:05:11 PM
Agreed.
A terrible thing.
And the park service should be but isn't ashamed.
Post by: stlusn30-06 on June 04, 2020, 10:17:57 AM
"Right or wrong, The plan was never to manage the heard, the plan was to completely remove them from the ecosystem and its been that way for at least 20 years...."
Agreed.
A terrible thing.
And the park service should be but isn't ashamed.
I understand the sentiment here, but it would take an act of Congress to allow for hunting seasons to be opened in ONP. NPS officials, Bios, etc...would need to undertake a substantial lobbying effort to get the rules changed, all to allow for the hunting of a Non-Native deleterious species. I obviously would 100% support that effort, but am not surprised, nor do I hold it against them for not taking that route. The culling of animals through various methods, is (while maybe not our favorite) one of the management options utilized in the North American model. Foundational to the model, is science based wildlife management. Everyone agrees mistakes have been made over the past ~80years, but on the whole it has been a success. With that understanding I have to believe the decision to cull wasn't taken likely.
That and they will live on in the native North Cascades habitat many of them of have been, and will be relocated to. Hopefully boosting those populations will provide hunting opportunities in the future.
Post by: sagemd on June 04, 2020, 03:15:05 PM
Glad it is going down this way rather than shot from the air and leaving them to rot.
You can call it a cull. By definition a cull doesn't remove all animals.
An extermination does.
The park service already has the authority to have emergency hunts.
It doesn't take an act of congress.
They are doing it now. And could have done this long ago.
The fact is they could have used other creative methods to manage wildlife.
As they are doing now. Because of public outcry.
I suspect many are just antihunting, and allowed the problem to get large enough that it could not be handled by hunting.
But I'm glad there are allot of hunters willing to help the park service exterminate the goats!
Post by: Falcon on June 04, 2020, 08:09:33 PM
I agree that this plan is the best answer to a very bad situation the park service as created.
Glad it is going down this way rather than shot from the air and leaving them to rot.
You can call it a cull. By definition a cull doesn't remove all animals.
An extermination does.
The park service already has the authority to have emergency hunts.
It doesn't take an act of congress.
They are doing it now. And could have done this long ago.
The fact is they could have used other creative methods to manage wildlife.
As they are doing now. Because of public outcry.
I suspect many are just antihunting, and allowed the problem to get large enough that it could not be handled by hunting.
But I'm glad there are allot of hunters willing to help the park service exterminate the goats!
[/I agree that this plan is the best answer to a very bad situation the park service as created.
Glad it is going down this way rather than shot from the air and leaving them to rot.
You can call it a cull. By definition a cull doesn't remove all animals.
An extermination does.
The park service already has the authority to have emergency hunts.
It doesn't take an act of congress.
They are doing it now. And could have done this long ago.
The fact is they could have used other creative methods to manage wildlife.
As they are doing now. Because of public outcry.
I suspect many are just antihunting, and allowed the problem to get large enough that it could not be handled by hunting.
But I'm glad there are allot of hunters willing to help the park service exterminate the goats!
:yeah:
I agree. I was on the very first relocation project. It was a very cool experience, and it would have been great to see all the goats moved, but deep down, I was pretty sure it would never see season 3 of the funded project. It’s very expensive and truth be told, there were going to areas that were too extreme.
This project isn’t perfect, but I think having hunters harvest the goats, realizing it more of a cull is better than having federal fish and wildlife sharp shooters kill them from helicopters and let em lay.
Post by: yakimanoob on June 05, 2020, 07:26:58 PM
I did send Dr Happe a thank you, even though we were not selected. It is the most impressed I've been with a government employee in a while.
Ditto
+1. Bummed to not be selected, but I've been generally impressed with the program they put together. From what I can tell, Dr Happe and her team have done an excellent job in a very contentious and complex situation.
Post by: Shawn Ryan on June 06, 2020, 10:04:43 PM
I wish they would have made each group show up for a one day competition on all aspects of this hunt. Although I'm sure there were A LOT of super qualified teams, I will never believe there were 21 better qualified (Every Aspect) for this hunt that ours with the criteria given. :twocents:
I don't know you or your team, and your team might have been BOMB, but as for the individual competitors in said "one-day competition on all aspects of this hunt," I'd bet a whole lot of money on Michael Blanchard smoking everybody: Third place in Best Ranger Competition https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2016/04/17/nco-and-officer-duo-claims-title-of-best-ranger-2016/; beat in said competition by Robert Killian, Spartan OCR world champion, https://life.spartan.com/post/spartan-robert-killian; and killer of dead-of-winter mountain goats on Kodiak Is. And I'll guess he gets to put more shots down-range per week than most all of us, along with some of the world's best armors and trainers helping him shoot small.
Maybe I have a man-crush on a dude I've never met, but dang, he has credentials for that goat removal project. He might even wear a cape!
Post by: MtnMuley on June 06, 2020, 11:22:16 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on June 07, 2020, 06:34:07 AM
I wish they would have made each group show up for a one day competition on all aspects of this hunt. Although I'm sure there were A LOT of super qualified teams, I will never believe there were 21 better qualified (Every Aspect) for this hunt that ours with the criteria given. :twocents:
I don't know you or your team, and your team might have been BOMB, but as for the individual competitors in said "one-day competition on all aspects of this hunt," I'd bet a whole lot of money on Michael Blanchard smoking everybody: Third place in Best Ranger Competition https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2016/04/17/nco-and-officer-duo-claims-title-of-best-ranger-2016/; beat in said competition by Robert Killian, Spartan OCR world champion, https://life.spartan.com/post/spartan-robert-killian; and killer of dead-of-winter mountain goats on Kodiak Is. And I'll guess he gets to put more shots down-range per week than most all of us, along with some of the world's best armors and trainers helping him shoot small.
Maybe I have a man-crush on a dude I've never met, but dang, he has credentials for that goat removal project. He might even wear a cape!
You gotta remember that michael B had a dude like me on his application to slow him down tho! :chuckle:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 07, 2020, 10:34:19 AM
Post by: opdinkslayer on June 07, 2020, 10:58:08 AM
Post by: Shawn Ryan on June 07, 2020, 05:46:11 PM
I mean, he's cool I guess. Doesn't matter how tough he is though because he still suffers from little brother complex which means if I come at him he folds into the fetal position.
As a little brother, I know the competitive drive to "best" my older brother. My money is still on Michael. ;)
Post by: coachcw on June 08, 2020, 12:28:21 PM
It would be a good scrap , Karl better try and end it quick though.I mean, he's cool I guess. Doesn't matter how tough he is though because he still suffers from little brother complex which means if I come at him he folds into the fetal position.
As a little brother, I know the competitive drive to "best" my older brother. My money is still on Michael. ;)
Post by: TriggerMike on June 08, 2020, 01:10:57 PM
Post by: stew pidasso on June 08, 2020, 01:18:27 PM
Without going back and reading 20 pages... has a single Hunt WA member been selected?
Yes, around 3 or more.
Post by: Bearhunter on July 03, 2020, 09:10:17 PM
Post by: actionshooter on July 03, 2020, 09:44:10 PM
To bring this back to life.... I cant imagine that this hunt is even going to take place??? What are all of your thoughts????I don't really or fully consider it a "hunt" but I think the NPS has a solid plan. I think it will likely go.
Post by: idaho guy on July 04, 2020, 07:21:23 PM
Post by: Bearhunter on August 17, 2020, 12:52:40 PM
Post by: nwhunter on August 17, 2020, 09:25:29 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on August 24, 2020, 08:23:08 PM
The park has been super crowded lately---maybe more than ever. They have had to shutdown trailheads and the feeding roads because cars have been parked all along the sides for up to five miles. Other places (Lake Crescent) have had lawn/picnic areas used for additional parking to handle the crowds. I've been told that RVs and vehicles like sprinter vans and even trucks that can tow camping set ups have been selling faster than in years past---lots of road trips to America's parks, with Olympic seemingly getting a hefty share. Hopefully all your trails will be open and not too crowded. First group hunts in a couple weeks.
Post by: actionshooter on August 24, 2020, 09:26:42 PM
Just kind of fyi from a neighbor for any of the extremely lucky that got picked....
The park has been super crowded lately---maybe more than ever. They have had to shutdown trailheads and the feeding roads because cars have been parked all along the sides for up to five miles. Other places (Lake Crescent) have had lawn/picnic areas used for additional parking to handle the crowds. I've been told that RVs and vehicles like sprinter vans and even trucks that can tow camping set ups have been selling faster than in years past---lots of road trips to America's parks, with Olympic seemingly getting a hefty share. Hopefully all your trails will be open and not too crowded. First group hunts in a couple weeks.
This is absolutely true, I have never seen so many people at the trails heads and campong areas.... it is freakin insane...
Staircase and Lake Cushman were completely shut down last weekend because of it...
I hope it doesn't affect the goat plans!
Post by: Katmai Guy on August 24, 2020, 10:58:59 PM
Post by: Onewhohikes on August 25, 2020, 05:16:59 AM
Post by: Rob on August 26, 2020, 08:00:30 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on September 14, 2020, 01:31:33 PM
Post by: idaho guy on September 14, 2020, 02:35:30 PM
Post by: 2MANY on September 14, 2020, 03:24:58 PM
Post by: Rob on September 15, 2020, 06:58:34 AM
I was up at Lake Constance last weekend and the smoke was terrible. 200 yard vis. The only way to get a goat is hit the hiking trails up high and hope to bump into one looking for minerals.
Post by: graywolf on October 03, 2020, 06:32:55 PM
I've climbed Mt. Olympus eight times over the years, dating back to 1976. I've also backpacked up to the lateral moraine to show friends and family the view a number of additional times. The most recent was this past week when I took my wife there for her first repeat visit since 2016. I also took some friends up there last summer. Almost every time I've been to this area I have seen mountain goats on the Mt. Olympus massif.
This past Wednesday, September 30, my wife and I ran into a culling team who had just topped out on the rope ladder below Glacier Meadows. When I asked if they were part of the culling hunters, they confirmed that they were and one of them asked us if we were part of "team three". I asked if they had any luck, and unfortunately the answer was negative. I told them where I usually saw goats, and they said they had glassed that area extensively without any sightings.
We continued on to Glacier Meadows, then on up to the top of the lateral moraine. While eating lunch, I pulled out my pocket binoculars and started scanning Mt. Olympus, and sure enough spotted two goats.
If anyone is on the next group that is headed into that area this coming week, or if you know someone who is, please respond to me and I can forward on a couple of photos I took. I also shot a compass bearing of the goats' location.
Thanks!
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 03, 2020, 06:39:53 PM
Hi, my first post here - just joined today. First, I am not a hunter, but a very experienced climber and hiker of Olympic National Park. I do support the hunting/culling of the mountain goat population in the Olympics, and am hoping to pass on some potentially helpful information to anyone on this forum who may be involved with this culling project.thank you for sharing and welcome :hello:
I've climbed Mt. Olympus eight times over the years, dating back to 1976. I've also backpacked up to the lateral moraine to show friends and family the view a number of additional times. The most recent was this past week when I took my wife there for her first repeat visit since 2016. I also took some friends up there last summer. Almost every time I've been to this area I have seen mountain goats on the Mt. Olympus massif.
This past Wednesday, September 30, my wife and I ran into a culling team who had just topped out on the rope ladder below Glacier Meadows. When I asked if they were part of the culling hunters, they confirmed that they were and one of them asked us if we were part of "team three". I asked if they had any luck, and unfortunately the answer was negative. I told them where I usually saw goats, and they said they had glassed that area extensively without any sightings.
We continued on to Glacier Meadows, then on up to the top of the lateral moraine. While eating lunch, I pulled out my pocket binoculars and started scanning Mt. Olympus, and sure enough spotted two goats.
If anyone is on the next group that is headed into that area this coming week, or if you know someone who is, please respond to me and I can forward on a couple of photos I took. I also shot a compass bearing of the goats' location.
Thanks!
Post by: WaltAlpine on October 03, 2020, 08:00:48 PM
Post by: jackelope on October 03, 2020, 09:03:47 PM
Post by: h20hunter on October 03, 2020, 09:04:49 PM
Post by: fishngamereaper on October 03, 2020, 09:07:17 PM
I'm excited to hear some recaps. Not really about the kills but just the recap of the experience.
I didn't think they could talk about the experience. Or is it just pics that are restricted.
What happens on the mountain stays on the mountain. :dunno:
Post by: h20hunter on October 03, 2020, 09:12:05 PM
Post by: Pacific Ghost on October 08, 2020, 03:19:04 PM
Post by: snake on October 08, 2020, 04:58:01 PM
Post by: sagemd on October 08, 2020, 05:57:37 PM
Hi, my first post here - just joined today. First, I am not a hunter, but a very experienced climber and hiker of Olympic National Park. I do support the hunting/culling of the mountain goat population in the Olympics, and am hoping to pass on some potentially helpful information to anyone on this forum who may be involved with this culling project.
I've climbed Mt. Olympus eight times over the years, dating back to 1976. I've also backpacked up to the lateral moraine to show friends and family the view a number of additional times. The most recent was this past week when I took my wife there for her first repeat visit since 2016. I also took some friends up there last summer. Almost every time I've been to this area I have seen mountain goats on the Mt. Olympus massif.
This past Wednesday, September 30, my wife and I ran into a culling team who had just topped out on the rope ladder below Glacier Meadows. When I asked if they were part of the culling hunters, they confirmed that they were and one of them asked us if we were part of "team three". I asked if they had any luck, and unfortunately the answer was negative. I told them where I usually saw goats, and they said they had glassed that area extensively without any sightings.
We continued on to Glacier Meadows, then on up to the top of the lateral moraine. While eating lunch, I pulled out my pocket binoculars and started scanning Mt. Olympus, and sure enough spotted two goats.
If anyone is on the next group that is headed into that area this coming week, or if you know someone who is, please respond to me and I can forward on a couple of photos I took. I also shot a compass bearing of the goats' location.
Thanks!
Just to make sure you understand this is not a "hunt/culling".
It is an extermination!!
Post by: graywolf on October 08, 2020, 06:11:04 PM
Hi, my first post here - just joined today. First, I am not a hunter, but a very experienced climber and hiker of Olympic National Park. I do support the hunting/culling of the mountain goat population in the Olympics, and am hoping to pass on some potentially helpful information to anyone on this forum who may be involved with this culling project.
I've climbed Mt. Olympus eight times over the years, dating back to 1976. I've also backpacked up to the lateral moraine to show friends and family the view a number of additional times. The most recent was this past week when I took my wife there for her first repeat visit since 2016. I also took some friends up there last summer. Almost every time I've been to this area I have seen mountain goats on the Mt. Olympus massif.
This past Wednesday, September 30, my wife and I ran into a culling team who had just topped out on the rope ladder below Glacier Meadows. When I asked if they were part of the culling hunters, they confirmed that they were and one of them asked us if we were part of "team three". I asked if they had any luck, and unfortunately the answer was negative. I told them where I usually saw goats, and they said they had glassed that area extensively without any sightings.
We continued on to Glacier Meadows, then on up to the top of the lateral moraine. While eating lunch, I pulled out my pocket binoculars and started scanning Mt. Olympus, and sure enough spotted two goats.
If anyone is on the next group that is headed into that area this coming week, or if you know someone who is, please respond to me and I can forward on a couple of photos I took. I also shot a compass bearing of the goats' location.
Thanks!
Just to make sure you understand this is not a "hunt/culling".
It is an extermination!!
I am aware of this, and I support it.
Post by: Pacific Ghost on October 08, 2020, 07:03:47 PM
Does anyone know what kind of people got selected to be on the teams? I am curious? Military, people with a lot of guiding experience, mountaineering? I know some guys who had pretty good credentials that did not get selected.A lot of different opinions about that, but it's all in the thread above, not too far back.
Post by: LongBomb on October 08, 2020, 07:56:44 PM
Does anyone know what kind of people got selected to be on the teams? I am curious? Military, people with a lot of guiding experience, mountaineering? I know some guys who had pretty good credentials that did not get selected.
I know a group that got picked. 1 medic the rest were generic but all athletic and aggressive. They got 2, were able to get 1 packed out.
Post by: snake on October 08, 2020, 08:28:43 PM
Thanks for the reply, I just read almost the entire thread, not much for specifics on the guys/groups selected.Does anyone know what kind of people got selected to be on the teams? I am curious? Military, people with a lot of guiding experience, mountaineering? I know some guys who had pretty good credentials that did not get selected.
I know a group that got picked. 1 medic the rest were generic but all athletic and aggressive. They got 2, were able to get 1 packed out.
Post by: pd on October 08, 2020, 08:36:37 PM
Thanks for the reply, I just read almost the entire thread, not much for specifics on the guys/groups selected.Does anyone know what kind of people got selected to be on the teams? I am curious? Military, people with a lot of guiding experience, mountaineering? I know some guys who had pretty good credentials that did not get selected.
I know a group that got picked. 1 medic the rest were generic but all athletic and aggressive. They got 2, were able to get 1 packed out.
I don't know that we (this community) knows who the various groups are, except for those who have confirmed in this thread.
Post by: Alchase on October 08, 2020, 08:41:13 PM
Does anyone know what kind of people got selected to be on the teams? I am curious? Military, people with a lot of guiding experience, mountaineering? I know some guys who had pretty good credentials that did not get selected.
I know a group that got picked. 1 medic the rest were generic but all athletic and aggressive. They got 2, were able to get 1 packed out.
Congratulations!
Would love to see some pics if you have any!
Post by: Widgeondeke on October 09, 2020, 03:16:07 PM
Congratulations!
Would love to see some pics if you have any!
reply 318 & 319 above state no pics allowed.
you trying to get people in trouble ? :chuckle:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on October 14, 2020, 08:48:46 AM
https://www.nps.gov/media/webcam/view.htm?id=81B46251-1DD8-B71B-0B29B9750DE273B5
Post by: hunterednate on November 12, 2020, 11:46:20 AM
https://www.nps.gov/olym/learn/news/mountain-goat-removal-complete-for-2020.htm
31 goats total taken by the 20 goat teams. Most importantly, sounds like it went off without any major PR hitches. Hoping this leaves the door open for more National Parks to consider recruiting hunters as volunteers for future lethal removal programs. Well done to the members here who were selected and participated! Sounds like you guys had to endure some tough conditions.
Post by: HikerHunter on November 12, 2020, 03:57:24 PM
Post by: idaho guy on November 16, 2020, 02:25:52 PM
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on November 16, 2020, 03:06:04 PM
Post by: nwhunter on November 16, 2020, 07:39:16 PM
Post by: sagemd on November 16, 2020, 08:45:17 PM
Post by: HikerHunter on November 17, 2020, 08:53:31 AM
Post by: actionshooter on November 17, 2020, 06:42:24 PM
Post by: nwhunter on November 17, 2020, 07:55:36 PM
Post by: Bob33 on November 26, 2020, 04:20:34 PM
National Parks Service Increasingly Calls on Hunters to Help Cull Non-Native Bison, Mountain Goats
NPS has been relying on hunter volunteers to help manage non-native populations of mountain goats and bison in popular parks—after the animals begin to pose problems
Abi Cole
November 24, 2020
Bison are destroying critical water sources, diseased goats are running rampant, and pythons are squeezing biodiversity to death. What sounds like chaos at the zoo is actually a series of habitat disasters unfolding in our nation’s national parks. While the sporting community often accuses the National Park Service of preservation practices rather than conservation, some parks have switched gears. Lately, certain NPS mangers have called on skilled sportsmen and women to help control the non-native species currently threatening the biological rhythms of certain parks.
At the Grand Canyon, park biologists have prescribed lethal removal practices to save a fragile ecosystem overrun by bison. A non-native herd of hundreds of bison has crowded the North Rim of the park since the late 1990s, trampling vegetation and nearly exhausting the limited water sources. To help reduce the size of the herd and conserve the region’s native species, officials will begin recruiting experienced hunters next fall to participate in its controversial lethal removal program.
Relocated 57 bison from the North Rim.
On Sept. 4, Grand Canyon wildlife managers successfully relocated 57 bison from the North Rim of Grand Canyon National Park to tribes around the country.National Park Service
Historic Range, Modern Times
As many as 60 million bison roamed North America before white settlement and land grabs in the West whittled the population to a scant 300 head by the late 1800s. Federal troops, tourists, and hide hunters nearly eradicated the wild mammals, a critical resource for Native American tribes.
Read More
By the early 1900s, former bison hunter and rancher Charles “Buffalo” Jones began to reintroduce bison populations. In 1906 Jones carted 86 of them from Kansas to Arizona, as a ranching experiment to crossbreed with cattle. Though his attempt was a bust, the bison herd grew and meandered between the House Rock Wildlife Area and Grand Canyon National Park. Since 2009, however, the House Rock herd hasn’t wandered beyond the boundaries of the park. Hunting pressure from regulated hunts on adjacent U.S. Forest Service land has kept them on unpressured park ground.
“This could be part of their historic range, but [bison] have not been in Grand Canyon National Park until recently, which means the ecosystem here is very much affected by their presence,” says Kait Thomas, a public affairs officer at Grand Canyon National Park. “They do tend to trample and eat vegetation. They’re very good grazers.”
Jones’ legacy is the 400 to 600 bison that wander the North Rim of the park, which has the potential to grow an estimated 1,200 to 15,000 individuals in the next decade. Yet biological surveys have found that the area’s ecosystem can only support 200 bison. Park management is concerned that the bison herd has already significantly changed the composition and diversity of vegetation of the North Rim, and are poised to damage the area beyond recovery without intervention.
The bison have physically disturbed the North Rim of the park.
The bison have caused significant ecological damage to the North Rim of the park, as demonstrated by this wallow.National Park Service
To reduce the number of bison in the North Rim of the park, the Arizona Game and Fish Commission and the NPS agreed on Sept. 25 to collaborate on a lethal removal program. Volunteers hoping to help cull bison will be selected through a draw by the Arizona Game and Fish Commission in fall 2021. From there, the Park Service will select a limited number of qualified applicants who will be required to pass a shooting proficiency test.
“One thing that comes up often is, ‘Is it the same thing as hunting?’” Thomas says. “The answer is ‘no.’ Lethal removal is a management tactic to achieve that management goal of herd reduction. Hunters have more of an element of fair chase. You go out, you’re searching for a particular animal, you’re tracking that animal. In this case, the Park Service will be identifying the bison, and selecting individual animals for removal.”
Park officials also hope the lethal removal will encourage remaining bison to roam beyond the park’s borders. Additional volunteers on horseback will haze the bison in an attempt to push them out of the park boundaries.
Lethal removal volunteers are all-terrain commanders. This group at Grand Teton boated in to approach remote mountain goats.
Lethal removal volunteers are all-terrain commanders. This group at Grand Teton boated in to approach remote mountain goats.B. Day / National Park Service
Goats in the Grand Tetons
In recent years, calls for cull hunts to reduce stubborn non-native herds in national parks have become more common. In February, Grand Teton National Park contracted helicopter crews to eradicate its mountain goat population, which is competing with the park’s native bighorn sheep. The evasive animals live on craggy cliffs and in remote canyons, which are largely inaccessible to humans. The goats also carry pneumonia, which doesn’t affect the goats, but is deadly to the native bighorn.
The removal via helicopter evoked widespread criticism from Wyoming’s governor and animal rights groups. Due to the backlash, Interior Secretary David Bernhardt halted the operation after just one day.
Grand Teton National Park officials reimagined their strategy in August, when they called for qualified volunteers to trek through the Wyoming wilderness to cull the goats. Volunteers were instructed to assemble teams of two to six people and, within 24 hours, more than 240 teams from across the country had applied, according to Grand Teton National Park spokesperson Denise Germann.
A random draw selected just 70 of 240 teams from across the country for a weeklong cull in the wilderness. Similar to the Arizona bison cull application, the chosen volunteers were required to pass background investigations, physical fitness exams, and shooting tests.
During the cull, volunteers maintained contact with park management through radio and GPS, and used non-lead, copper ammunition. Teams were assigned to one of the park’s 10 geographic zones, each possessing unique terrain—and challenges.
A volunteers hikes into the interior of the Grand Tetons.
Volunteers hiked thousands of feet each day into the interior of the Grand Tetons.B. Day / National Park Service
“It took three hours to go one mile the first day,” says volunteer Jared Frasier, the executive director of 2% for Conservation and a Montana resident.
Frasier’s carefully selected team of self-described conservationist buddies were assigned to Zone 2, in the northern end of the park. It’s a treacherous area that contains Canyon Creek and the towering Mount Moran, and receives few park visitors.
“There were sections where we didn’t touch the ground for half an hour or more,” says Frasier “We were climbing over trees that it would take four people to put their arms around, old deadfalls that have been there forever. There are no trails in this section.”
Frasier is well-versed in goat territory. He has been on several surveys for the Rocky Mountain Goat Alliance to document the species and has hunted goats often over the years.
“They’re my favorite species, period,” says Frasier. “It was a surreal experience.”
But unlike a bucket-list goat hunt, volunteers were allowed to cull yearlings and nannies to reduce the breeding population. Each volunteer was allowed to pack out meat from one goat and donate any additional salvageable meat. After taking biological samples for park staff, any trophy parts (the horns and hides) were left in the Tetons.
Volunteer Natty Hagood removes a piece of a mountain goat ear for DNA sampling in the Teton Range.
Volunteer Natty Hagood removes a piece of a mountain goat ear for DNA sampling in the Teton Range.Taylor Glenn / National Park Service
“That’s not what, as a hunter, you plan for,” says Frasier. “But again, the project is population eradication. So that part was a bit of a mental hurdle. We had to wrestle with, that it’s a fact of the project, you’re removing one group to save another.”
Frasier thinks it’s more humane to kill the goats instantly than to let them pass pneumonia onto bighorn sheep, which will suffer for months. Through that lens, the idea of culling large numbers of invasive goats became more palatable. In the end, however, Frasier’s team did not kill any goats. The animals had positioned themselves on inaccessible shelves of canyons, and were quick to leave when the hunters got close enough for a shot.
While Frasier’s team did not encounter a single visitor in their week-long trek, volunteer Justin Walters was assigned to the Cascade Canyon area of the park, which is a popular hiking and climbing area. Visitors were notified that they would be traveling in a mountain goat removal zone. Walter and his team encountered nearly 100 visitors, many of whom asked them questions about their volunteer cull work.
“A lot of people still have so much curiosity that when they see the volunteers,” says Germann. “It was a really good opportunity for some dialogue about National Park Service management.”
Walters, a former seasonal park ranger, says it’s like “comparing apples and oranges” to confuse culling goats in the park with recreational hunting. These goats were unpursued and unpressured for decades, growing accustomed to the non-threatening presence of humans. But there’s still no “easy” way to scale 5,000 vertical feet, or try to locate goats in the fierce Wyoming wind. Walters’ team harvested a goat on their first evening and removed three in total.
“It was very challenging,” says Walters. “And I cried for the first time in years, just because it was all of that: it was so emotional, so physically challenging. Which I knew would be, just given the Tetons…There’re really not many places like Grand Teton National Park.”
Volunteers climbing to meet the mountain-perched goats.
Most volunteers began climbing at dawn for hours to meet the mountain-perched goats.B. Day / National Park Service
Grand Teton National Park has removed 43 non-native goats, of the approximate 100 animal herd, since Sept. 14, says Germann. Management staff considers this a great beginning to a 3- to 5-year plan to eliminate the remaining goats.
Culls like the Grand Teton goat removal have proven effective, but many question the ethics of such management practices. Animal rights group PETA predictably condemned Grand Teton’s lethal removal practices, calling for relocation-only approaches. The Wyoming Game and Fish Department also criticized the initial goat management plan for the Tetons, though for different reasons. The use of “aerial gunning” was a poor solution, according to the WGFD, who wrote that, “having government personnel kill mountain goats from helicopters and leaving them to rot and be wasted is unacceptable. The GTNP’s refusal to utilize statutory options allowing skilled volunteers to harvest the mountain goats is shortsighted and sets a dangerous precedent.”
Captured mountain goats from Olympic National Park are dropped into a staging area where they are cared for by veterinarians.
Captured mountain goats from Olympic National Park are dropped into a staging area where they are cared for by veterinarians.J. Burger / National Park Service
Grand Teton National Park adapted its plan, and recruited volunteers to help with lethal management. So why not allow hunting in national parks to prevent thorny—not to mention expensive—management crises like this in the first place? Because hunting is illegal in most national parks, and changing federal law to allow it would require Congressional action.
As a result, lethal removal is often the most logical solution for park management. Relocating animals is wildly expensive, whether that’s by airlifting elusive mountain goats or freighting two-ton bison. Volunteers are typically experienced hunters who are eager to help cull a bucket-list species and are, most importantly for the parks, a much more cost-effective solution.
RELATED: Why Weren’t License-Buying Hunters Allowed to Cull Invasive Mountain Goats from Grand Teton National Park?
Turning to Tribes
Before the cull begins, Grand Canyon National Park is capturing and relocating bison to Native American Tribes through a partnership with the InterTribal Buffalo Council. ITBC receives grants and federal funding to help restore to help restore bison herds (or buffalo, as they’re called among tribal members) to the lands of their 69 member tribes. Since 2019, 88 bison have been corralled in the Grand Canyon’s North Rim and herded onto semi-trucks headed to tribes across the country. Bison serve a variety of purposes to the tribal community as a food source, including for elder nutrition programs and school lunches. Each year ITBC partners with new tribes that have a special cultural relationship with the bison.
“It’s an inherent right of tribes to access this food source and species,” says Megan Davenport, wildlife biologist for ITBC.
These bison were captured and transferred to the InterTribal Buffalo Council.
These bison were captured and transferred to the InterTribal Buffalo Council in Sept, 2019. They were later combined a new herd at the Quapaw tribe in Arizona.National Park Service
Though relocation is a win-win for both tribes and parks, Davenport notes that the transfers are extremely expensive. Especially at the Grand Canyon, which presents logistical complications because the North Rim roads are not accessible to semis. Transportation fees, veterinary services, and relocation personnel all add up.
ITBC receives funding through the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and ITCB is currently backing a bill to assist tribal governments in the reestablishment and management of buffalo on tribal lands. The Indian Buffalo Management Act would create a permanent line item and appropriate funding in the BIA budget for tribal buffalo restoration efforts.
For now, the park management’s objective is to reign bison numbers to 200 in the next three to five years. Excess animals not captured and relocated by ITBC will likely be culled. That’s where the volunteers come in.
If bison are allowed to remain at their current population in the North Rim—more than double the area’s carrying capacity—they will ultimately edge out the region’s native plants and animals and destroy the fragile ecosystem. But we have all the management tools we need to fix the problem, as long as we’re allowed to use them.
Post by: sagemd on November 27, 2020, 04:44:53 PM
The articles head line is misleading. The intent was not to cull mountain goats, the intent was to exterminate them. (fake news)
Culling and extermination are very different things.
So far the park service is only using hunters after they have aloud over population to become a problem.
Park service needs to manage wildlife.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on November 27, 2020, 05:09:49 PM