Post by: 7mmfan on June 16, 2020, 09:57:50 AM
Do you load one round in increments from min to max and look for the plateau somewhere in there, or are you shooting groups and doing the same? The gun gets hot fast, so if I try to shoot more than 12-15 rounds it will take all friggin day.
We will have a chrono on hand to monitor velocity as well. Plan on shooting as long of distance as is feasible, 250-300 yards.
Post by: jasnt on June 16, 2020, 10:12:00 AM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on June 16, 2020, 10:30:21 AM
Log speed of each shot.
Get a barrel cooler!!!
Shot this at 500 yd two days ago
Post by: 7mmfan on June 16, 2020, 10:40:14 AM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on June 16, 2020, 10:41:16 AM
Barrelcool , could get acquarium pump too
Post by: Magnum_Willys on June 16, 2020, 10:42:10 AM
Post by: birddogdad on June 16, 2020, 11:48:23 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on June 16, 2020, 12:48:15 PM
Zero at 200, Up maybe MOA at 300?
Post by: Mtnwalker on June 16, 2020, 12:57:24 PM
I don't even think I'd use a chrono for loads that would only be shot at 250-300 yards.
Zero at 200, Up maybe MOA at 300?
Guessing he meant shooting his ladder at 250-300, not max hunting range..?
Post by: Crunchy on June 16, 2020, 12:58:38 PM
Post by: 7mmfan on June 16, 2020, 01:26:31 PM
Post by: TooTallMike on June 16, 2020, 01:30:29 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on June 16, 2020, 01:31:50 PM
I don't even think I'd use a chrono for loads that would only be shot at 250-300 yards.
Zero at 200, Up maybe MOA at 300?
Guessing he meant shooting his ladder at 250-300, not max hunting range..?
Gotcha, I guess I read it too quick.
Post by: bullfisher on June 16, 2020, 02:11:10 PM
Post by: Stein on June 16, 2020, 02:17:04 PM
At that range you'd be better off with an optimum charge weight test (OCW). 3-5 shots, pick your most accurate and either refine it with tighter weight variance OCW test, or go straight to a seating depth test. A 300yd ladder test might just confuse you, cause it did me. At 600yds a ladder test starts to separate and clear up for me. Like mentioned above, the further the better for ladder tests. :twocents:
:yeah:
The problem with the ladder test is you are usually only using one shot at each load and the shot is subject to both your accuracy as a shooter and the rifle's. Say you are shooting .75 MOA, you don't know if that hole is the center of the pattern or on one of the edges and each hole in the paper has this same issue. Interpreting that is a big problem unless you really space them out by shooting long.
I had good success with shooting 5 shot groups at different charges and finding the tightest pattern and then coming back with 5 shot groups a bit above and below to see where it's best.
I also have success using a chrono and picking a few loads with low SD and then looking at groups to confirm. That helped a bunch as it removed the shooter, wind and other variables.
Post by: 7mmfan on June 16, 2020, 03:15:25 PM
I don't have the time to shoot 5 shoot groups in .2 gr increments, and then fiddle with seating depth on half a dozen loads. It's just not in the cards. This is one of about 3 weekend days I have available to do this until like the middle of August so I'm trying to make the best use of my time.
Explain some of these other methods for refining the loads prior to heading out to me so I can evaluate and maybe implement them over the next couple days. I'll watch the Sadderlee videos tonight after kiddos bedtime, but if someone can give me a rudimentary breakdown it would be appreciated.
Post by: jasnt on June 16, 2020, 03:24:11 PM
This is my favorite method personallyAt that range you'd be better off with an optimum charge weight test (OCW). 3-5 shots, pick your most accurate and either refine it with tighter weight variance OCW test, or go straight to a seating depth test. A 300yd ladder test might just confuse you, cause it did me. At 600yds a ladder test starts to separate and clear up for me. Like mentioned above, the further the better for ladder tests. :twocents:
I also have success using a chrono and picking a few loads with low SD and then looking at groups to confirm. That helped a bunch as it removed the shooter, wind and other variables.
Post by: Jonathan_S on June 16, 2020, 03:35:14 PM
Day 1: load up 4-5 shot groups in .5 grain increments up to max., shoot and choose the most accurate charge weight.
Day 2: Shoot another 10-20 to confirm, if Day 1: results weren't quite to standard I'd load several depths of the same charge
Day 3: Shoot the best Day 2 depth again to confirm
In all reality for someone who shoots that seldom (not a knock) you shouldn't be shooting at game far enough for ES to really matter. Load up something that shoots about MOA and go kill stuff this fall. It ain't that complicated BUT there is no way to have a super abbreviated but also ultra precise handloading recipe without getting somewhat lucky in only three shooting sessions :twocents:
Post by: Jonathan_S on June 16, 2020, 03:40:08 PM
Post by: 7mmfan on June 16, 2020, 03:47:47 PM
On that last thought. I have another rifle that’s dialed so I can will fall back on that most likely. This rifle is a project so to speak. I have a load that shoots just a little worse than MOA that I killed two animals with last year, so I feel ok using that out to a couple hundred yards, but I want better.
Post by: Jonathan_S on June 16, 2020, 04:10:36 PM
Post by: 7mmfan on June 16, 2020, 04:30:28 PM
.5 that anything over 1 seems ridiculous. I may just need to adjust my expectations.
Post by: hogslayer on June 16, 2020, 05:17:35 PM
Post by: 7mmfan on June 16, 2020, 05:54:34 PM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on June 16, 2020, 06:27:56 PM
To really dial in get case capacity by weighing empty brass and brass full of water
Post by: Buckjunkie on June 16, 2020, 06:30:32 PM
If I had 3 days between now and August, this is what I would do.
Day 1: load up 4-5 shot groups in .5 grain increments up to max., shoot and choose the most accurate charge weight.
Day 2: Shoot another 10-20 to confirm, if Day 1: results weren't quite to standard I'd load several depths of the same charge
Day 3: Shoot the best Day 2 depth again to confirm
In all reality for someone who shoots that seldom (not a knock) you shouldn't be shooting at game far enough for ES to really matter. Load up something that shoots about MOA and go kill stuff this fall. It ain't that complicated BUT there is no way to have a super abbreviated but also ultra precise handloading recipe without getting somewhat lucky in only three shooting sessions :twocents:
This sounds like a recipe for throat erosion before you find a load.
I would start by searching forums like Long Range Forum for loads with your Cartridge and bullet. You will see patterns + or - a grain. Start bullet seating .020 off lands and grooves for conventional bullets and .090 for solid copper/monoliths.
Run a ladder group around that load at 300+ yards. One shot 5 minutes apart. Find a cluster and re-load the middle load from the cluster in groups of 3 with seating depths closer and further from lands and grooves.
Keep everything constant. Brass (new or fired #of times).
You are trying to eliminate variables.
My .02 cents
Post by: Jonathan_S on June 16, 2020, 07:42:42 PM
Throat erosion hasn't proven itself to be the Boogeyman that the more anal retentive make it out to be (personal opinion).
Post by: bullfisher on June 16, 2020, 07:54:55 PM
Alight well you guys are shattering my grandiose plans of a perfect ladder test now. Shooting out past 400 is basically undoable within any kind of an acceptable drive of where I am. I don't know that I could provide any consistency at that range with this setup anyway. I'm just trying to get a load that is accurate for this rifle.If you don't have enough range to ladder test, or enough time to OCW test, then you'll have to velocity string test or satterlee test as mentioned above. The satterlee test can be hard to weed through if your chrony is finicky, scale inaccurate, powder stability, ect.. Thats why its easier at .5grn or higher increments. Honestly though, I end up loading and shooting just as much with a satterlee test as a .3grn OCW test. But maybe someone else has had better luck. The easiest short range test for me has been a .3grn OCW test. You can load a box of 3 shot groups or a couple boxes of 5 shot. Cool barrel between groups and tighten a seating depth test later.
I don't have the time to shoot 5 shoot groups in .2 gr increments, and then fiddle with seating depth on half a dozen loads. It's just not in the cards. This is one of about 3 weekend days I have available to do this until like the middle of August so I'm trying to make the best use of my time.
Explain some of these other methods for refining the loads prior to heading out to me so I can evaluate and maybe implement them over the next couple days. I'll watch the Sadderlee videos tonight after kiddos bedtime, but if someone can give me a rudimentary breakdown it would be appreciated.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on June 16, 2020, 08:41:52 PM
The easiest short range test for me has been a .3grn OCW test. You can load a box of 3 shot groups or a couple boxes of 5 shot. Cool barrel between groups and tighten a seating depth test later.
:yeah: Do this and triangulate the shots and use center of them as a ladder at the same time. I always start out with Quickload expected optimum charge weight and try to disprove it.
Post by: Buckjunkie on June 16, 2020, 08:44:03 PM
:yike: Throat erosion from 50-75 shots on a weapon that hasn't even printed better than MOA doesn't sound like much of a loss to me.
Throat erosion hasn't proven itself to be the Boogeyman that the more anal retentive make it out to be (personal opinion).
Why are you asking for advice if you know so much?
Post by: 7mmfan on June 16, 2020, 08:48:30 PM
:yike: Throat erosion from 50-75 shots on a weapon that hasn't even printed better than MOA doesn't sound like much of a loss to me.
Throat erosion hasn't proven itself to be the Boogeyman that the more anal retentive make it out to be (personal opinion).
Why are you asking for advice if you know so much?
Don't think Jonathan was asking for any advice, I was.
Post by: 7mmfan on June 16, 2020, 08:50:36 PM
Alight well you guys are shattering my grandiose plans of a perfect ladder test now. Shooting out past 400 is basically undoable within any kind of an acceptable drive of where I am. I don't know that I could provide any consistency at that range with this setup anyway. I'm just trying to get a load that is accurate for this rifle.If you don't have enough range to ladder test, or enough time to OCW test, then you'll have to velocity string test or satterlee test as mentioned above. The satterlee test can be hard to weed through if your chrony is finicky, scale inaccurate, powder stability, ect.. Thats why its easier at .5grn or higher increments. Honestly though, I end up loading and shooting just as much with a satterlee test as a .3grn OCW test. But maybe someone else has had better luck. The easiest short range test for me has been a .3grn OCW test. You can load a box of 3 shot groups or a couple boxes of 5 shot. Cool barrel between groups and tighten a seating depth test later.
I don't have the time to shoot 5 shoot groups in .2 gr increments, and then fiddle with seating depth on half a dozen loads. It's just not in the cards. This is one of about 3 weekend days I have available to do this until like the middle of August so I'm trying to make the best use of my time.
Explain some of these other methods for refining the loads prior to heading out to me so I can evaluate and maybe implement them over the next couple days. I'll watch the Sadderlee videos tonight after kiddos bedtime, but if someone can give me a rudimentary breakdown it would be appreciated.
This is basically what I've done, and I'm just frustrated with lack of results. I probably spent 2 weeks and a couple hundred rounds down range last year to get to a 1.25" group. The gun gets hot fast and I literally have fart around for 20 minutes to feel like its cool enough for another group. Takes all friggin day. In reality I just need to come to terms with the fact that this gun may just not be a great shooter.
Post by: Buckjunkie on June 16, 2020, 09:04:53 PM
:yike: Throat erosion from 50-75 shots on a weapon that hasn't even printed better than MOA doesn't sound like much of a loss to me.
Throat erosion hasn't proven itself to be the Boogeyman that the more anal retentive make it out to be (personal opinion).
Why are you asking for advice if you know so much?
Don't think Jonathan was asking for any advice, I was.
Thought he was you...my bad
Post by: Jason on June 16, 2020, 09:07:32 PM
140 Accubond and VargetI’ve had very good results with Varget and 140 Accubonds in my Ruger American 7mm-08. Good luck with the testing and finding a good load.
Post by: 7mmfan on June 16, 2020, 09:20:18 PM
140 Accubond and VargetI’ve had very good results with Varget and 140 Accubonds in my Ruger American 7mm-08. Good luck with the testing and finding a good load.
Out of curiosity, what did you settle on for a load? Distance off lands?
Post by: 7mmfan on June 16, 2020, 09:20:34 PM
:yike: Throat erosion from 50-75 shots on a weapon that hasn't even printed better than MOA doesn't sound like much of a loss to me.
Throat erosion hasn't proven itself to be the Boogeyman that the more anal retentive make it out to be (personal opinion).
Why are you asking for advice if you know so much?
Don't think Jonathan was asking for any advice, I was.
Thought he was you...my bad
:tup:
Post by: Jason on June 16, 2020, 09:29:59 PM
41.2gr Varget 2.807 coal. I’m not sure how far off the lands it ended up, I don’t have that info here in the house.140 Accubond and VargetI’ve had very good results with Varget and 140 Accubonds in my Ruger American 7mm-08. Good luck with the testing and finding a good load.
Out of curiosity, what did you settle on for a load? Distance off lands?
Post by: jasnt on June 16, 2020, 09:32:50 PM
When you have done seating depth testing in the past what were your increments?
I’ve had great results with Berger’s seating depth testing. .030” increments. Some times that sweet spot is .120” jump and have seen even more be better in some guns.
Can’t remember if you said or not but has it been bedded? What scope are you running?
Post by: 7mmfan on June 16, 2020, 09:39:03 PM
Lands is 2.90. Magazine length is 2.85. I've loaded from there down to 2.73. Most loads between 2.80 and 2.85.
Rifle is bedded and floated. Scope leupold vx 2 3-9. Nothing fancy but more than adequate for putting a group on paper at 100 yards.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on June 16, 2020, 10:02:30 PM
Without tuning Quickload says 43.1 gr @ 2.870 for 2870 fps for 24” barrel is your goto.
This is MAX Load
Or drop to 40.2 gr @ 2700.
If I knew barrel length, and velocity and
Load specs from existing load could narrow it down.
My last 3 rifles have all shot quickload suggest loads < .5 moa
Post by: jasnt on June 16, 2020, 10:17:39 PM
Jmo based on my experiences
Post by: 7mmfan on June 17, 2020, 04:50:28 AM
How long is your barrel?
Without tuning Quickload says 43.1 gr @ 2.870 for 2870 fps for 24” barrel is your goto.
This is MAX Load
Or drop to 40.2 gr @ 2700.
If I knew barrel length, and velocity and
Load specs from existing load could narrow it down.
My last 3 rifles have all shot quickload suggest loads < .5 moa
Barrel is 22" long 1:9.25 twist. I don't have speeds from any existing loads unfortunately.
@jasnt I agree that a systematic approach to all aspects of reloading is the best way to go. I'm just flustered from lack of time. I have jumped around a bit in my reloading efforts which hasn't helped me any. I guess I just need to buck up and load it out and try to find the time.
Post by: jasnt on June 17, 2020, 05:05:51 AM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on June 17, 2020, 07:40:25 AM
I like to bump a hair before optimum so I would guess 40.9 @ 2.800
The speeds listed are the important part the grains are quickloads guesstimate since no proven load data to input.
Post by: 7mmfan on June 17, 2020, 08:43:31 AM
Well with a 22” barrel quickload says First node is down at 40.7 gr @ 2703 and you can’t reach next node of 44 gr @ 2903.
I like to bump a hair before optimum so I would guess 40.9 @ 2.800
The speeds listed are the important part the grains are quickloads guesstimate since no proven load data to input.
That's good info. Thanks for that. I worked up loads this morning starting at 41, maybe I'll add a few down into the 40's to see what they yield. I doubt I'd be able to make it 44 gr, the rifle usually shows pressure signs slightly above book max.
Post by: wooltie on June 17, 2020, 12:13:15 PM
Usually I find the flat spot in velocity where the variation between three loads is < 10 fps e.g. 2690, 2700, 2710 (so I'd pick 2690), but this last trial was different. 7 of 8 loads were all about 1" or less, while 1 shot was outside the group and that might have been me. Here's the spread for 165g partition, H435055.0g-57.1g out of a 30-06.
2743
2752
2765
2782 (probably go with this one)
2790
2806
2849
2841
Now I'll mess around with seating depth until I'm tired of making range trips.
I just haven't had luck starting with charge weight first. I find the seating depth that works as a starting point, then pick the velocity, then return to tweakign seating depth. Also a good way to find out how much work it will take for a a given bullet:
I loaded up four bullets (5 shot groups each), 2 grains under book max, seated .020", then shot them at 100 yards.
One bullet groups touching, whereas the others were more dispersed, and some where like 1.5" groups.....so it's like "do I really want to mess around with closing a 1.5" group, or do I just go with the load with the sub-moa load outta the gate?" All the bullets will kill just fine. Now if only I could get those stupid accubonds to group...
Post by: TooTallMike on June 17, 2020, 12:19:03 PM
I've been shooting ladders at 100-200 yards using a magneto speed hanging off the end of the barrel. I like to see the point of impact, but I use the measured velocity to determine my charge weight. I tune seating depth after I select the charge weight to tighten the group per Jasnt. :tup: I've had success with this approach, it doesn't take a lot of range trips and reloading. I've seen inconclusive results where higher velocity shots produce a lower point of impact relative to lower velocity shots, for whatever reasons.
Usually I find the flat spot in velocity where the variation between three loads is < 10 fps e.g. 2690, 2700, 2710 (so I'd pick 2690), but this last trial was different. 7 of 8 loads were all about 1" or less, while 1 shot was outside the group and that might have been me. Here's the spread for 55.0g-57.1g
2743
2752
2765
2782 (probably go with this one)
2790
2806
2849
2841
Nice !
I do a similar ladder and it has saved me a bunch of components.
For what you listed there I'd go with 56.1g. So you know if you have a variance of +/- .1 either way you'll still be in the sweet spot for low ES.
Then I tune for seating depth if I feel like I want to squeeze out a little more.
Happy shooting!
Post by: Magnum_Willys on July 12, 2020, 04:00:00 PM
Post by: jasnt on July 12, 2020, 09:07:08 PM
I've been shooting ladders at 100-200 yards using a magneto speed hanging off the end of the barrel. I like to see the point of impact, but I use the measured velocity to determine my charge weight. I tune seating depth after I select the charge weight to tighten the group per Jasnt. :tup: I've had success with this approach, it doesn't take a lot of range trips and reloading. I've seen inconclusive results where higher velocity shots produce a lower point of impact relative to lower velocity shots, for whatever reasons.that last 2 sure are close! I’d at least try those before you decide
Usually I find the flat spot in velocity where the variation between three loads is < 10 fps e.g. 2690, 2700, 2710 (so I'd pick 2690), but this last trial was different. 7 of 8 loads were all about 1" or less, while 1 shot was outside the group and that might have been me. Here's the spread for 165g partition, H435055.0g-57.1g out of a 30-06.
2743
2752
2765
2782 (probably go with this one)
2790
2806
2849
2841
Now I'll mess around with seating depth until I'm tired of making range trips.
I just haven't had luck starting with charge weight first. I find the seating depth that works as a starting point, then pick the velocity, then return to tweakign seating depth. Also a good way to find out how much work it will take for a a given bullet:
I loaded up four bullets (5 shot groups each), 2 grains under book max, seated .020", then shot them at 100 yards.
One bullet groups touching, whereas the others were more dispersed, and some where like 1.5" groups.....so it's like "do I really want to mess around with closing a 1.5" group, or do I just go with the load with the sub-moa load outta the gate?" All the bullets will kill just fine. Now if only I could get those stupid accubonds to group...
Nice shooting magnum