Post by: Bango skank on July 06, 2020, 05:23:01 PM
Post by: buckfvr on July 06, 2020, 06:18:37 PM
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on July 06, 2020, 06:28:23 PM
Post by: ffhoofer on July 06, 2020, 06:52:35 PM
Post by: jrebel on July 06, 2020, 07:38:42 PM
I haven't seen the survey, but I sure hope I get it.....if they keep restrictions on kids....I'm 100% against it. Bring back a youth season and I could care less.
Post by: buckfvr on July 06, 2020, 07:46:29 PM
That you could "care less", tells me your heart and mind aren't in the right spot.
And if you have property with a healthy herd, its lost on me why you cant be hunting 18 month old 4x's, unless of course its because they all get shot as spikes.
Post by: ffhoofer on July 06, 2020, 07:49:10 PM
Post by: buckfvr on July 06, 2020, 07:56:41 PM
Post by: jrebel on July 06, 2020, 08:05:24 PM
18 month old 4 pt isn't a horn hunter buck or a trophy buck by any user groups standards. Oh yes, the age of entitlement. Well when I grew up and my sons as well, no one gave a rats butt whether any kid got to kill a deer let alone a buck.
That you could "care less", tells me your heart and mind aren't in the right spot.
You don’t know me.... you don’t know how I have managed my property. You also don’t know what your talking about. Show me an 18 month old 4 point..... maybe if your scoring east coast style. Most 4 points are at least 2.5 years old and some 3.5 + years old.
Calling someone entitled you have never met shows your immaturity. You also don’t understand and or give two *censored*ttts about our sport if you don’t agree with recruitment of new young hunters. If kids don’t have opportunity and don’t stick with the sport, our sport dies.
Post by: duckmen1 on July 06, 2020, 08:05:55 PM
Post by: buckfvr on July 06, 2020, 08:15:45 PM
Now for my way of thinking, for you to get pissed off over my post says something about your maturity since you brought it up.
Oh ya, my first bow kill was a main frame 8 or 4pt, and he still had his milk teeth making him 18mo or younger.
Post by: jrebel on July 06, 2020, 08:26:43 PM
I count them like the game laws say to count them, pretty simple. Theres a ton of us old men still hunting even though we didn't get to shoot babies. Don't read into my post what isn't written. You were not called entitled, and you don't know me either. If our sport dies it wont be for lack of opportunity as they see to it we have a bunch of it although most it worthless.
Now for my way of thinking, for you to get pissed off over my post says something about your maturity since you brought it up.
Oh ya, my first bow kill was a main frame 8 or 4pt, and he still had his milk teethe making him 18mo or younger.
So I’m clear. 18 month old deer grow 4 point? Fake news. Kids hunting opportunity makes them entitled because you weren’t afforded those opportunities as a kid.....interesting concept and thought process. Washington offers plenty of opportunity.....all in the eye of the beholder I guess.
Now let me show you a trophy.... regardless of what you think, this was the biggest deer in the world at the moment he saw and harvested it. First buck at 9 years old....yeah let’s take that opportunity away from kids.
Post by: hunter399 on July 06, 2020, 08:41:59 PM
The facts are we need some kind of APR. in northeast Washington.Within a few years surplus amount of younger bucks should be able to be hunted by youth,disabled,65 over.Along with maybe a few extra days of season.I see no harm in giving out certain user groups different opportunity including bow hunters,muzzleloader hunters ,that will support APR in our areas. Now them trying to turn late seasons into permit hunts just piss me off .The money hungry greed just never stops.Why don't you just manage our deer herds without sticking your hand in the cookie jar.Besides when deer herds do well you will make more money OTC .
4pt min
No Doe tags EVER
Opportunity for some users when buck numbers can support .
No permits for deer season whitetail
Post by: buckfvr on July 06, 2020, 09:07:18 PM
Post by: huntnnw on July 06, 2020, 10:07:00 PM
Post by: Camo on July 06, 2020, 10:38:42 PM
Post by: huntnnw on July 06, 2020, 10:46:11 PM
Post by: Camo on July 06, 2020, 11:03:11 PM
your best genetic bucks can be 4pts or even 5's at 1.5.
You would know. I wasn't going to push my biology limits that far. :chuckle:
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on July 06, 2020, 11:13:18 PM
Post by: huntnnw on July 06, 2020, 11:43:22 PM
Post by: Bango skank on July 07, 2020, 12:16:45 AM
people who hunt these units want to see improvement get out there and hunt bears, cougars and yotes. Bears are devastating on fawns and there is a ton of them in NE WA
We need everything to help our herd. Apr, no antlerless, and we all need to put effort into predator hunting. All 3 of those things have to happen.
Post by: Dan-o on July 07, 2020, 12:39:17 AM
your best genetic bucks can be 4pts or even 5's at 1.5.
This surprises me.
I'm not arguing..... I ignored Whitetails until recently.
Got any pics of 1.5 year old 4 points?
I'm picturing very small and spindly.
Post by: huntnnw on July 07, 2020, 12:55:57 AM
Post by: hunter399 on July 07, 2020, 01:43:14 AM
Post by: Bango skank on July 07, 2020, 02:32:11 AM
Post by: hunter399 on July 07, 2020, 08:11:02 AM
Pretty sure last year was our first year of no antlerless harvest, it hasnt been a few years.Sorry you are correct.
My boys didn't shoot any Doe those last few years there was a doe season .
My bad.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on July 07, 2020, 08:35:33 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 07, 2020, 08:49:05 PM
Kids opportunity is a moot point when they can hunt 2.5 yr old bucks that are just as dumb as spikes are during the late rifle hunt.
Post by: bustedoldman on July 07, 2020, 08:56:32 PM
Post by: Bango skank on July 07, 2020, 10:51:41 PM
We've got a couple little bitty 3 pts and 4 pts around. I'll see if I can dig them up.
Kids opportunity is a moot point when they can hunt 2.5 yr old bucks that are just as dumb as spikes are during the late rifle hunt.
After a few years of apr kids will have a better opportunity to kill a buck Than they have now even with a 4pt apr, because the herd will be in better shape.
Post by: Spuddieselwwu on July 07, 2020, 11:04:23 PM
Post by: stlusn30-06 on July 07, 2020, 11:14:14 PM
Post by: Bango skank on July 07, 2020, 11:17:45 PM
Any thoughts on the idea that these white tails are expanding their range into Muley territory and out competing an already pressured population? I'm not in the know about any of it. Just have heard a few guys throw that out there. These guys are legit Muley freaks, and frankly they want the White tails gone. Curious what people who live there, and/or really know what's going on have to say.
Its not like theres a lack of available browse that the mule deer are competing for. I dont see how it would help mule numbers if the whitetail disappeared. In fact the whitetails are probably taking some of the heat from predators off the muleys backs :dunno:
Post by: huntnnw on July 07, 2020, 11:42:08 PM
Plenty of 4pts up there. I don’t have a problem with an antler restriction... as long as they pair it with aggressive predator control. Those two things could do wonder for that herd.
pair with aggressive predator management? as with WDFW doing it? bears are 2 a season now and if you are not helping you are part of the problem. Thats the biggest problem is guys complain about deer and elk herds yet less than 10% get out and hunt predators.
Post by: Bango skank on July 07, 2020, 11:54:31 PM
Plenty of 4pts up there. I don’t have a problem with an antler restriction... as long as they pair it with aggressive predator control. Those two things could do wonder for that herd.
pair with aggressive predator management? as with WDFW doing it? bears are 2 a season now and if you are not helping you are part of the problem. Thats the biggest problem is guys complain about deer and elk herds yet less than 10% get out and hunt predators.
Less than 10% even buy tags. Less than 10% of those probably actually hunt predators.
Post by: huntnnw on July 08, 2020, 02:01:33 AM
Post by: nwwanderer on July 08, 2020, 06:31:56 AM
Post by: wolfbait on July 08, 2020, 07:22:39 AM
I saw some numbers a while back on hunters who hunt deer and elk and how many actually hunt predators it was extremely low. Yet they are the ones screaming and yelling about fixing predator issues or why dont they do something about our herds.
:yeah:
Predation is the number one cause for the ungulate damage, but then we knew this after watching the wolves decimate the Yellowstone herd.
WDFW could shut the season down completely, deer, elk etc. would still continue to decline. :twocents:
Post by: Pegasus on July 08, 2020, 07:35:57 AM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on July 08, 2020, 08:14:50 AM
Survey asked nothing about predator control. All about point restrictions and season changes. Nothing about controlling predators. How convenient to design a survey and ignore the elephant in the room. Designed to produce only politically correct answers that that restrict the hunters but not the predators.The survey wasnt about predators or predator control. It was about apr.
Post by: BreezyBear on July 08, 2020, 08:14:59 AM
Survey asked nothing about predator control. All about point restrictions and season changes. Nothing about controlling predators. How convenient to design a survey and ignore the elephant in the room. Designed to produce only politically correct answers that that restrict the hunters but not the predators.
Perfectly stated!
Post by: Fishmaker57 on July 08, 2020, 08:22:07 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on July 08, 2020, 09:11:38 AM
:yeah:Survey asked nothing about predator control. All about point restrictions and season changes. Nothing about controlling predators. How convenient to design a survey and ignore the elephant in the room. Designed to produce only politically correct answers that that restrict the hunters but not the predators.The survey wasnt about predators or predator control. It was about apr.
Although, I suppose if one believes hunting has no real effect on the population because predators are simply eating all the deer, then I suppose you could make the argument that APR is just rearranging some deck chairs on the Titanic.
I don't believe this, as even with predators, hunting is often the leading or among the leading causes of mortality - so modifications to hunter harvest will often have real and near-immediate population level effects.
Post by: Pegasus on July 08, 2020, 09:50:30 AM
:yeah:Survey asked nothing about predator control. All about point restrictions and season changes. Nothing about controlling predators. How convenient to design a survey and ignore the elephant in the room. Designed to produce only politically correct answers that that restrict the hunters but not the predators.The survey wasnt about predators or predator control. It was about apr.
Although, I suppose if one believes hunting has no real effect on the population because predators are simply eating all the deer, then I suppose you could make the argument that APR is just rearranging some deck chairs on the Titanic.
I don't believe this, as even with predators, hunting is often the leading or among the leading causes of mortality - so modifications to hunter harvest will often have real and near-immediate population level effects.
The numbers prove that most of the killing is done by the predators by a large amount over the kills by hunters. I agree that changing the hunter rules impacts the herds somewhat but why let the predators go unchecked while you control the hunters only? The WDFW is supposed to manage our game for us, the hunters. They are not. They are managing for the liberal non-hunters. Why do you think Washington state was the only state in the union that shut down hunting over Covid? It is all about appeasing the anti-hunting crowd that rules this state.
Post by: TriggerMike on July 08, 2020, 10:19:45 AM
Post by: buckfvr on July 08, 2020, 10:39:59 AM
I voted for a 2 pt minimum and no loss of opportunity for youth and 65+. There's no doubt that if we don't make drastic steps toward killing predators that in the next 10 years it will probably be draw only in the NE corner (which was a question on the survey), which is hard to even comprehend considering what it used to be.
Entirely the same age class of whitetail as a spike. Don't need to be pursuing baby bucks still with their mamas (except youth). The most vulnerable bucks in the woods (1, 2, 3pt 18 mo old deer) need a free pass from adult hunters.
Post by: vandeman17 on July 08, 2020, 10:55:29 AM
I voted for a 2 pt minimum and no loss of opportunity for youth and 65+. There's no doubt that if we don't make drastic steps toward killing predators that in the next 10 years it will probably be draw only in the NE corner (which was a question on the survey), which is hard to even comprehend considering what it used to be.
Entirely the same age class of whitetail as a spike. Don't need to be pursuing baby bucks still with their mamas (except youth). The most vulnerable bucks in the woods (1, 2, 3pt 18 mo old deer) need a free pass from adult hunters.
Need a pass to create a better age class buck or better population?
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 08, 2020, 10:57:16 AM
Post by: jrebel on July 08, 2020, 11:10:47 AM
I voted for a 2 pt minimum and no loss of opportunity for youth and 65+. There's no doubt that if we don't make drastic steps toward killing predators that in the next 10 years it will probably be draw only in the NE corner (which was a question on the survey), which is hard to even comprehend considering what it used to be.
Entirely the same age class of whitetail as a spike. Don't need to be pursuing baby bucks still with their mamas (except youth). The most vulnerable bucks in the woods (1, 2, 3pt 18 mo old deer) need a free pass from adult hunters.
Need a pass to create a better age class buck or better population?
Clearly a pass so we are not teaching people to get participation trophies.....duh!! Because if you hunt for a week straight and decide to fill you freezer with a 3 point buck you didn't hunt as hard as the guy that got a 5 point.
I would argue that shooting a smaller buck would allow the larger ones to continue to spread their genes. Isn't this the reason most east side elk is spike only?
I am all for a healthy population and also for a chance at a nice buck but I feel some hunters today have lost the meaning of what hunting is and has always been for most who enjoy the sport. It isn't always about killing a 150+ class whitetail.
I have hunted the NE corner (though sporadically) since I was 8 years old. The deer numbers are clearly down but some make it out as if the deer are almost extinct. This is simply not the fact. Take and hour drive in the morning or evening in most of these GMU's an a guy can count 100's of deer. I get it...20 years ago driving the same roads a guy would likely count 5 times as much.
I agree with all that has been said about predator hunting ....and we try and do our part yearly by killing bruins. We also shoot coyotes when the opportunity presents.
I get the distinct feeling that a few on here want trophies....and are willing to take opportunity away from others in the hopes of building trophy class deer. I couldn't disagree more with this sentiment. I am for point restrictions if needed to benefit the heard. I am not for point restrictions in an attempt to build trophies. I also am not for giving up any more ground to WDFW especially when it burdens our youth and 65+ opportunity.
Post by: Spuddieselwwu on July 08, 2020, 11:11:22 AM
Plenty of 4pts up there. I don’t have a problem with an antler restriction... as long as they pair it with aggressive predator control. Those two things could do wonder for that herd.
pair with aggressive predator management? as with WDFW doing it? bears are 2 a season now and if you are not helping you are part of the problem. Thats the biggest problem is guys complain about deer and elk herds yet less than 10% get out and hunt predators.
No, as with incentivizing hunters to manage the problem. Opening up more spring bear tags, making 2nd bear super cheap, allowing limited cougar hound hunts, etc.
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 08, 2020, 11:46:02 AM
I voted for a 2 pt minimum and no loss of opportunity for youth and 65+. There's no doubt that if we don't make drastic steps toward killing predators that in the next 10 years it will probably be draw only in the NE corner (which was a question on the survey), which is hard to even comprehend considering what it used to be.
Entirely the same age class of whitetail as a spike. Don't need to be pursuing baby bucks still with their mamas (except youth). The most vulnerable bucks in the woods (1, 2, 3pt 18 mo old deer) need a free pass from adult hunters.
Need a pass to create a better age class buck or better population?
Clearly a pass so we are not teaching people to get participation trophies.....duh!! Because if you hunt for a week straight and decide to fill you freezer with a 3 point buck you didn't hunt as hard as the guy that got a 5 point. silly attempt to put a bad motive on those who disagree with you
I would argue that shooting a smaller buck would allow the larger ones to continue to spread their genes. Isn't this the reason most east side elk is spike only? genetics aren't in question, spikes have the same genetics. From a management perspective it's apples to oranges, obviously
I am all for a healthy population and also for a chance at a nice buck but I feel some hunters today have lost the meaning of what hunting is and has always been for most who enjoy the sport. It isn't always about killing a 150+ class whitetail. people who pursue 150+ class bucks can and have done so with AND without APRs
I have hunted the NE corner (though sporadically) since I was 8 years old. The deer numbers are clearly down but some make it out as if the deer are almost extinct. This is simply not the fact. Take and hour drive in the morning or evening in most of these GMU's an a guy can count 100's of deer. I get it...20 years ago driving the same roads a guy would likely count 5 times as much. so what's your point? That it's bad but not bad enough to stop shooting the recruitment class of some of the1.5 old bucks?
I agree with all that has been said about predator hunting ....and we try and do our part yearly by killing bruins. We also shoot coyotes when the opportunity presents. :tup:
I get the distinct feeling that a few on here want trophies....and are willing to take opportunity away from others in the hopes of building trophy class deer. I couldn't disagree more with this sentiment. I am for point restrictions if needed to benefit the heard. I am not for point restrictions in an attempt to build trophies. I also am not for giving up any more ground to WDFW especially when it burdens our youth and 65+ opportunity. as said before, actual trophies are there either way. I've pursued giant whitetails in units that have/had OTC any buck and any deer seasons for years.
Post by: jrebel on July 08, 2020, 12:17:58 PM
I voted for a 2 pt minimum and no loss of opportunity for youth and 65+. There's no doubt that if we don't make drastic steps toward killing predators that in the next 10 years it will probably be draw only in the NE corner (which was a question on the survey), which is hard to even comprehend considering what it used to be.
Entirely the same age class of whitetail as a spike. Don't need to be pursuing baby bucks still with their mamas (except youth). The most vulnerable bucks in the woods (1, 2, 3pt 18 mo old deer) need a free pass from adult hunters.
Need a pass to create a better age class buck or better population?
Clearly a pass so we are not teaching people to get participation trophies.....duh!! Because if you hunt for a week straight and decide to fill you freezer with a 3 point buck you didn't hunt as hard as the guy that got a 5 point. silly attempt to put a bad motive on those who disagree with you
I would argue that shooting a smaller buck would allow the larger ones to continue to spread their genes. Isn't this the reason most east side elk is spike only? genetics aren't in question, spikes have the same genetics. From a management perspective it's apples to oranges, obviously
I am all for a healthy population and also for a chance at a nice buck but I feel some hunters today have lost the meaning of what hunting is and has always been for most who enjoy the sport. It isn't always about killing a 150+ class whitetail. people who pursue 150+ class bucks can and have done so with AND without APRs
I have hunted the NE corner (though sporadically) since I was 8 years old. The deer numbers are clearly down but some make it out as if the deer are almost extinct. This is simply not the fact. Take and hour drive in the morning or evening in most of these GMU's an a guy can count 100's of deer. I get it...20 years ago driving the same roads a guy would likely count 5 times as much. so what's your point? That it's bad but not bad enough to stop shooting the recruitment class of some of the1.5 old bucks?
I agree with all that has been said about predator hunting ....and we try and do our part yearly by killing bruins. We also shoot coyotes when the opportunity presents. :tup:
I get the distinct feeling that a few on here want trophies....and are willing to take opportunity away from others in the hopes of building trophy class deer. I couldn't disagree more with this sentiment. I am for point restrictions if needed to benefit the heard. I am not for point restrictions in an attempt to build trophies. I also am not for giving up any more ground to WDFW especially when it burdens our youth and 65+ opportunity. as said before, actual trophies are there either way. I've pursued giant whitetails in units that have/had OTC any buck and any deer seasons for years.
Jonathan
If you read the previous post you would understand my comment about about the participation trophy. I 100% don't agree with this sentiment but it was stated that hunters that let kids shoot young bucks is likened to a participation trophy. This is simply ridiculous and if it had any truth most hunters should be ashamed at ever shooting does, cows, young bucks, spike elk, etc......
As for the 150+ class bucks.....again, we are on the same page. Re-read the entire post. I want opportunity over trophy.....especially as it pertains to youth and 65+.
"so what's your point" comment......again we are on the same page.
I am not a trophy hunter....I like to eat them more than I like to look at their antlers. In my years of hunting I have been fortunate enough to kill a few nice animals. I have been more fortunate to kill and eat many many more. I value the experience and culture of hunting more than I do the trophy nature of big racks. :tup:
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 08, 2020, 12:41:27 PM
Post by: jrebel on July 08, 2020, 12:44:47 PM
Excellent, same page. All in for APRs :tup:
:chuckle: :chuckle: As long as it doesn't apply to youth or 65+. :tup:
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 08, 2020, 12:50:51 PM
Post by: bhawley76 on July 08, 2020, 12:53:14 PM
Post by: jrebel on July 08, 2020, 01:01:33 PM
I am aggressively addressing the bear in and around my land. I have owned it for two years and am allowing family to hunt and hopefully kill or pressure the bruin to the point they don't want to be there. We will see what happens to the local deer herds. some may think I am arguing to simply argue....but I have a vested interest in the NE corner and I personally do not see an emergent issue with current deer population. Could it be better....yes. Is managing one aspect of the perceived problem the answer....no. Until WDFW pulls their heads out of their rectums and manages predators better.....I will not support the continued loss of hunting opportunity.
Its kinda like fishing, You'll never get a big one if you keep all the lil ones. Same goes for hunting. But to each his own.
Not everyone wants the big ones. The little ones taste better. :tup:
Post by: hunter399 on July 08, 2020, 01:11:16 PM
WDFW doesn't give two craps about trophy hunting or shooting mature bucks.
They want to sell tags,end of story.
If I had to guess the two main reasons the 4pt min was lifted in 2014 was,
Too many hunters complained
It was hurting the bottom line-not selling enough tags.
People should fill out the survey on how they really feel .
How I feel is they should start some kind of APR,one season APR for everybody ,next year APR everybody except youth,next year APR everybody except disabled,next year APR everybody except 65 over.
Basically rotated opportunity for everybody but rotated so that the deer herds will continue a upward trend.
That would be my plan a four year rotations .
First year-everbody has APR
Second year-everybody has APR-youth any buck
Third year-everybody has APR-disabled any buck
Fourth year-everbody has APR-65 over any buck
Then start rotation over again.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on July 08, 2020, 01:14:55 PM
Yes, but it all blurs together. WDFW and trophy hunters, if given the chance would shut down all hunting except for APR units that cost $$$$ to apply to hunt for trophies. I'm 100% against that. The NE units are not gonna be hurt by youth and 65+ hunters.You do realize that in recent years wdfw has both increased spring and fall bear opportunity in the NE? Both of which are a large step in managing predators, imo apr is a logical next step to helping deer population.
I am aggressively addressing the bear in and around my land. I have owned it for two years and am allowing family to hunt and hopefully kill or pressure the bruin to the point they don't want to be there. We will see what happens to the local deer herds. some may think I am arguing to simply argue....but I have a vested interest in the NE corner and I personally do not see an emergent issue with current deer population. Could it be better....yes. Is managing one aspect of the perceived problem the answer....no. Until WDFW pulls their heads out of their rectums and manages predators better.....I will not support the continued loss of hunting opportunity.Its kinda like fishing, You'll never get a big one if you keep all the lil ones. Same goes for hunting. But to each his own.
Not everyone wants the big ones. The little ones taste better. :tup:
Post by: jrebel on July 08, 2020, 01:19:46 PM
I would like to see cats get managed better. Hounds, trapping, year round season etc. we have a cat problem bad. I have cats on camera regularly and they say an adult cat can kill a deer a week. Just in our area that would equate to hundreds of deer a year. :bash:
Post by: Bango skank on July 08, 2020, 01:27:56 PM
Yes and we have been targeting bears in our area. :tup:
I would like to see cats get managed better. Hounds, trapping, year round season etc. we have a cat problem bad. I have cats on camera regularly and they say an adult cat can kill a deer a week. Just in our area that would equate to hundreds of deer a year. :bash:
We are likely looking at more cougar improvements on the table soon.
Post by: hunter399 on July 08, 2020, 01:28:50 PM
I would like you to pm me these roads where I can count 100's of deer in a hour. :dunno: :dunno: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:I voted for a 2 pt minimum and no loss of opportunity for youth and 65+. There's no doubt that if we don't make drastic steps toward killing predators that in the next 10 years it will probably be draw only in the NE corner (which was a question on the survey), which is hard to even comprehend considering what it used to be.
Entirely the same age class of whitetail as a spike. Don't need to be pursuing baby bucks still with their mamas (except youth). The most vulnerable bucks in the woods (1, 2, 3pt 18 mo old deer) need a free pass from adult hunters.
Need a pass to create a better age class buck or better population?
Clearly a pass so we are not teaching people to get participation trophies.....duh!! Because if you hunt for a week straight and decide to fill you freezer with a 3 point buck you didn't hunt as hard as the guy that got a 5 point.
I would argue that shooting a smaller buck would allow the larger ones to continue to spread their genes. Isn't this the reason most east side elk is spike only?
I am all for a healthy population and also for a chance at a nice buck but I feel some hunters today have lost the meaning of what hunting is and has always been for most who enjoy the sport. It isn't always about killing a 150+ class whitetail.
I have hunted the NE corner (though sporadically) since I was 8 years old. The deer numbers are clearly down but some make it out as if the deer are almost extinct. This is simply not the fact. Take and hour drive in the morning or evening in most of these GMU's an a guy can count 100's of deer. I get it...20 years ago driving the same roads a guy would likely count 5 times as much.
I agree with all that has been said about predator hunting ....and we try and do our part yearly by killing bruins. We also shoot coyotes when the opportunity presents.
I get the distinct feeling that a few on here want trophies....and are willing to take opportunity away from others in the hopes of building trophy class deer. I couldn't disagree more with this sentiment. I am for point restrictions if needed to benefit the heard. I am not for point restrictions in an attempt to build trophies. I also am not for giving up any more ground to WDFW especially when it burdens our youth and 65+ opportunity.
One thing I can say that does rub me the wrong way with WDFW is deer counts should be done on public huntable land ,doing deer counts in private owned ag field.when like 60% of region 1 ne corner is public land .count deer where oppertunitty is for the hunter.
Post by: bhawley76 on July 08, 2020, 01:55:45 PM
Post by: Pegasus on July 08, 2020, 02:00:53 PM
:yeah:Survey asked nothing about predator control. All about point restrictions and season changes. Nothing about controlling predators. How convenient to design a survey and ignore the elephant in the room. Designed to produce only politically correct answers that that restrict the hunters but not the predators.The survey wasnt about predators or predator control. It was about apr.
Although, I suppose if one believes hunting has no real effect on the population because predators are simply eating all the deer, then I suppose you could make the argument that APR is just rearranging some deck chairs on the Titanic.
I don't believe this, as even with predators, hunting is often the leading or among the leading causes of mortality - so modifications to hunter harvest will often have real and near-immediate population level effects.
Here is the problem with the survey of kills on deer. Clearly hunters are not the problem in managing game populations. This chart does not mention car kills or coyote kills(doubtful that the miscellaneous category covers the amounts correctly) and I believe it underestimates the bear kills. The odds a motorist, nationally, will hit a deer or other animal are 1 in 116, according to State Farm Insurance.
Post by: Pegasus on July 08, 2020, 02:21:41 PM
I think we need to cull the doe population just a little. I live in 101 and I am at number 3 with my truck this year and my wife has gotten one. There isn't one person up here that would argue that. Maybe its just me but not everyone is out for a wall hanger and that's fine. My point is there is more deer running around in the woods that are for the guy that wants that big rack, If people spent a little time shed hunting they would agree. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean there not there.
Maybe a defensive driving course is in order? :chuckle:
Post by: Bango skank on July 08, 2020, 02:34:27 PM
I think we need to cull the doe population just a little. I live in 101 and I am at number 3 with my truck this year and my wife has gotten one. There isn't one person up here that would argue that. Maybe its just me but not everyone is out for a wall hanger and that's fine. My point is there is more deer running around in the woods that are for the guy that wants that big rack, If people spent a little time shed hunting they would agree. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean there not there.
Maybe a defensive driving course is in order? :chuckle:
We dont need to cull. He just needs to drive better.
Post by: Pegasus on July 08, 2020, 03:24:53 PM
I think we need to cull the doe population just a little. I live in 101 and I am at number 3 with my truck this year and my wife has gotten one. There isn't one person up here that would argue that. Maybe its just me but not everyone is out for a wall hanger and that's fine. My point is there is more deer running around in the woods that are for the guy that wants that big rack, If people spent a little time shed hunting they would agree. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean there not there.
Maybe a defensive driving course is in order? :chuckle:
We dont need to cull. He just needs to drive better.
Not sure how his auto insurance likes it but at least his freezer should be full...
Post by: buckfvr on July 08, 2020, 03:50:28 PM
Yes, but it all blurs together. WDFW and trophy hunters, if given the chance would shut down all hunting except for APR units that cost $$$$ to apply to hunt for trophies. I'm 100% against that. The NE units are not gonna be hurt by youth and 65+ hunters.
I am aggressively addressing the bear in and around my land. I have owned it for two years and am allowing family to hunt and hopefully kill or pressure the bruin to the point they don't want to be there. We will see what happens to the local deer herds. some may think I am arguing to simply argue....but I have a vested interest in the NE corner and I personally do not see an emergent issue with current deer population. Could it be better....yes. Is managing one aspect of the perceived problem the answer....no. Until WDFW pulls their heads out of their rectums and manages predators better.....I will not support the continued loss of hunting opportunity.Its kinda like fishing, You'll never get a big one if you keep all the lil ones. Same goes for hunting. But to each his own.
Not everyone wants the big ones. The little ones taste better. :tup:
Still putting words in others mouths because you don't agree with or understand whats being said here. You keep throwing the "trophy" hunting thing out there when I never mentioned trophy hunting as I am not a trophy hunter. Just like your sons trophy, everyone has a different picture of what trophy means. My trophy may not be yours or anyone elses. Hell, I don't even know anyone Id consider a trophy hunter, but we do all want a better opportunity to more mature animals rather than being stuck in the wdfw rut of managing for a high yield of young animals.
If they set apr at 4pt, I think youll be surprised at how easy it is to kill these young 4xs, just as easy as a spike. Maybe some guys have a difficult time being successful because of time constraints or vacation timing, but that's not a universal problem.
And so I see several others have piped up about 18mo old 4xs which you called fake news, well guess what, your "not everyone wants a big one, the little ones taste better" truly is fake news. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: vandeman17 on July 08, 2020, 03:58:06 PM
Yes, but it all blurs together. WDFW and trophy hunters, if given the chance would shut down all hunting except for APR units that cost $$$$ to apply to hunt for trophies. I'm 100% against that. The NE units are not gonna be hurt by youth and 65+ hunters.
I am aggressively addressing the bear in and around my land. I have owned it for two years and am allowing family to hunt and hopefully kill or pressure the bruin to the point they don't want to be there. We will see what happens to the local deer herds. some may think I am arguing to simply argue....but I have a vested interest in the NE corner and I personally do not see an emergent issue with current deer population. Could it be better....yes. Is managing one aspect of the perceived problem the answer....no. Until WDFW pulls their heads out of their rectums and manages predators better.....I will not support the continued loss of hunting opportunity.Its kinda like fishing, You'll never get a big one if you keep all the lil ones. Same goes for hunting. But to each his own.
Not everyone wants the big ones. The little ones taste better. :tup:
Still putting words in others mouths because you don't agree with or understand whats being said here. You keep throwing the "trophy" hunting thing out there when I never mentioned trophy hunting as I am not a trophy hunter. Just like your sons trophy, everyone has a different picture of what trophy means. My trophy may not be yours or anyone elses. Hell, I don't even know anyone Id consider a trophy hunter, but we do all want a better opportunity to more mature animals rather than being stuck in the wdfw rut of managing for a high yield of young animals.
If they set apr at 4pt, I think youll be surprised at how easy it is to kill these young 4xs, just as easy as a spike. Maybe some guys have a difficult time being successful because of time constraints or vacation timing, but that's not a universal problem.
And so I see several others have piped up about 18mo old 4xs which you called fake news, well guess what, your "not everyone wants a big one, the little ones taste better" truly is fake news. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Do you want "mature" animals over "young animals" because they yield more meat or have bigger antlers? I think I know the answer but don't want to assume
Post by: buckfvr on July 08, 2020, 04:08:35 PM
Post by: vandeman17 on July 08, 2020, 04:11:23 PM
The answer to that is the more mature a buck is, the more meat you get first, then, and only if the buck gets to live to full maturity, the antler thing can be better. But if you read up on whitetails and QDMA, you will discover that the vast majority of bucks only ever get average antlers. They have to have more than age going for them (especially in Wa.) to become actual trophy whitetails. Granted, your 5 1/2 yr old and older bucks will have better antlers, but not always trophy quality, and how many guys you know who have killed 5 1/2 or older whitetails.
You didn't answer what I was asking. You just gave me information, not why YOU want to kill a mature buck versus a young buck. I actually like the APR but with some conditions so I just wanted to clarify why guys are for it. :tup:
Post by: buckfvr on July 08, 2020, 04:23:39 PM
I know for a fact that there are those that envision killing monster bucks because there is a 4p apr, but that just isn't the case. Sure there will be more 4 and 5pts out there, but again most will be 2 1/2, and 3 1/2 yr olds with fewer 4, 5, and 6 year olds respectively. So even as the herd ages, odds don't get any better for harvesting the truly mature big ol bucks as they are so smart and respond so negatively to pressure that they become exceedingly difficult to hunt. Yes guys do kill them, but they are still the exception. Theres 4pts and theres 4pts.....entirely different animals made by age.
Post by: vandeman17 on July 08, 2020, 04:27:44 PM
I can only speak for the guys I know and hunt with. Mostly we just like to hunt the entire season, the later the better. Once your tag is cut, the hunt is over. We enjoy the act of hunting more than the act of killing. For me personally, the kill is very anticlimactic. Sure its great to get your buck, especially a nice one, but still, its over once you've done that. I hate the end of the season.
I know for a fact that there are those that envision killing monster bucks because there is a 4p apr, but that just isn't the case. Sure there will be more 4 and 5pts out there, but again most will be 2 1/2, and 3 1/2 yr olds with fewer 4, 5, and 6 year olds respectively. So even as the herd ages, odds don't get any better for harvesting the truly mature big ol bucks as they are so smart and respond so negatively to pressure that they become exceedingly difficult to hunt. Yes guys do kill them, but they are still the exception. Theres 4pts and theres 4pts.....entirely different animals made by age.
You are a pro dodge ball player :chuckle:
Post by: jrebel on July 08, 2020, 04:37:08 PM
I can only speak for the guys I know and hunt with. Mostly we just like to hunt the entire season, the later the better. Once your tag is cut, the hunt is over. We enjoy the act of hunting more than the act of killing. For me personally, the kill is very anticlimactic. Sure its great to get your buck, especially a nice one, but still, its over once you've done that. I hate the end of the season.
I know for a fact that there are those that envision killing monster bucks because there is a 4p apr, but that just isn't the case. Sure there will be more 4 and 5pts out there, but again most will be 2 1/2, and 3 1/2 yr olds with fewer 4, 5, and 6 year olds respectively. So even as the herd ages, odds don't get any better for harvesting the truly mature big ol bucks as they are so smart and respond so negatively to pressure that they become exceedingly difficult to hunt. Yes guys do kill them, but they are still the exception. Theres 4pts and theres 4pts.....entirely different animals made by age.
So what is it.....1.5 years or 2.5 years old to get 4 points? You have now stated two different things. I have a pretty good understanding of how fast the average whitetail grows and have pics to prove it for my area. Most 1.5 year olds will be two points with eye guards (thus 3 pt). They will become bigger three points and some will become 4 points at 2.5 years. So.... Could a 1.5 year old grow 4pts.....sure I guess but the average buck in our area will not.
As for putting words in your mouth....just trying to help out being that you keep dodging questions. Remember....your the one that made the statement about participation trophies. Now your saying trophies are in the eye of the beholder. Your waiver if like a fart in the wind.
I do respect others opinions.....that doesn’t mean I have to agree with them.
Post by: vandeman17 on July 08, 2020, 04:40:18 PM
I can only speak for the guys I know and hunt with. Mostly we just like to hunt the entire season, the later the better. Once your tag is cut, the hunt is over. We enjoy the act of hunting more than the act of killing. For me personally, the kill is very anticlimactic. Sure its great to get your buck, especially a nice one, but still, its over once you've done that. I hate the end of the season.
I know for a fact that there are those that envision killing monster bucks because there is a 4p apr, but that just isn't the case. Sure there will be more 4 and 5pts out there, but again most will be 2 1/2, and 3 1/2 yr olds with fewer 4, 5, and 6 year olds respectively. So even as the herd ages, odds don't get any better for harvesting the truly mature big ol bucks as they are so smart and respond so negatively to pressure that they become exceedingly difficult to hunt. Yes guys do kill them, but they are still the exception. Theres 4pts and theres 4pts.....entirely different animals made by age.
So what is it.....1.5 years or 2.5 years old to get 4 points? You have now stated two different things. I have a pretty good understanding of how fast the average whitetail grows and have pics to prove it for my area. Most 1.5 year olds will be two points with eye guards (thus 3 pt). They will become bigger three points and some will become 4 points at 2.5 years. So.... Could a 1.5 year old grow 4pts.....sure I guess but the average buck in our area will not.
As for putting words in your mouth....just trying to help out being that you keep dodging questions. Remember....your the one that made the statement about participation trophies. Now your saying trophies are in the eye of the beholder. Your waiver if like a fart in the wind.
I do respect others opinions.....that doesn’t mean I have to agree with them.
Still hasn't answered mine that is a simple one word answer, Meat or Antler. :hello:
Post by: buckfvr on July 08, 2020, 04:47:51 PM
I can only speak for the guys I know and hunt with. Mostly we just like to hunt the entire season, the later the better. Once your tag is cut, the hunt is over. We enjoy the act of hunting more than the act of killing. For me personally, the kill is very anticlimactic. Sure its great to get your buck, especially a nice one, but still, its over once you've done that. I hate the end of the season.
I know for a fact that there are those that envision killing monster bucks because there is a 4p apr, but that just isn't the case. Sure there will be more 4 and 5pts out there, but again most will be 2 1/2, and 3 1/2 yr olds with fewer 4, 5, and 6 year olds respectively. So even as the herd ages, odds don't get any better for harvesting the truly mature big ol bucks as they are so smart and respond so negatively to pressure that they become exceedingly difficult to hunt. Yes guys do kill them, but they are still the exception. Theres 4pts and theres 4pts.....entirely different animals made by age.
So what is it.....1.5 years or 2.5 years old to get 4 points? You have now stated two different things. I have a pretty good understanding of how fast the average whitetail grows and have pics to prove it for my area. Most 1.5 year olds will be two points with eye guards (thus 3 pt). They will become bigger three points and some will become 4 points at 2.5 years. So.... Could a 1.5 year old grow 4pts.....sure I guess but the average buck in our area will not.
As for putting words in your mouth....just trying to help out being that you keep dodging questions. Remember....your the one that made the statement about participation trophies. Now your saying trophies are in the eye of the beholder. Your waiver if like a fart in the wind.
I do respect others opinions.....that doesn’t mean I have to agree with them.
Do some reading up and you will see a buck can be a 4pt as early as 1.5, and only ever be a 4pt til the end. The participation trophy isn't unique to me, many people feel this way. Eyes of the beholder for sure. What question have I dodged ? Might only be you didn't get the answer you needed to further ridicule me. I don't think youre capable of respecting an opinion that you don't agree with. Again, read up on whitetails because you don't have a good understanding of their developmental periods.
Post by: vandeman17 on July 08, 2020, 04:52:29 PM
I can only speak for the guys I know and hunt with. Mostly we just like to hunt the entire season, the later the better. Once your tag is cut, the hunt is over. We enjoy the act of hunting more than the act of killing. For me personally, the kill is very anticlimactic. Sure its great to get your buck, especially a nice one, but still, its over once you've done that. I hate the end of the season.
I know for a fact that there are those that envision killing monster bucks because there is a 4p apr, but that just isn't the case. Sure there will be more 4 and 5pts out there, but again most will be 2 1/2, and 3 1/2 yr olds with fewer 4, 5, and 6 year olds respectively. So even as the herd ages, odds don't get any better for harvesting the truly mature big ol bucks as they are so smart and respond so negatively to pressure that they become exceedingly difficult to hunt. Yes guys do kill them, but they are still the exception. Theres 4pts and theres 4pts.....entirely different animals made by age.
So what is it.....1.5 years or 2.5 years old to get 4 points? You have now stated two different things. I have a pretty good understanding of how fast the average whitetail grows and have pics to prove it for my area. Most 1.5 year olds will be two points with eye guards (thus 3 pt). They will become bigger three points and some will become 4 points at 2.5 years. So.... Could a 1.5 year old grow 4pts.....sure I guess but the average buck in our area will not.
As for putting words in your mouth....just trying to help out being that you keep dodging questions. Remember....your the one that made the statement about participation trophies. Now your saying trophies are in the eye of the beholder. Your waiver if like a fart in the wind.
I do respect others opinions.....that doesn’t mean I have to agree with them.
Do some reading up and you will see a buck can be a 4pt as early as 1.5, and only ever be a 4pt til the end. The participation trophy isn't unique to me, many people feel this way. Eyes of the beholder for sure. What question have I dodged ? Might only be you didn't get the answer you needed to further ridicule me. I don't think youre capable of respecting an opinion that you don't agree with. Again, read up on whitetails because you don't have a good understanding of their developmental periods.
Do you want "mature" animals over "young animals" because they yield more meat or have bigger antlers?
Post by: buckfvr on July 08, 2020, 04:57:09 PM
Post by: buckfvr on July 08, 2020, 04:58:08 PM
If that's the question, bottom line is neither. Im retired and can hunt every day, so the mature bucks offer more challenge and when lucky enough to get one, more meat, better horns, but primarily its a satisfaction derived from challenge. Also why I do the multi-season tag, its challenging.
Post by: vandeman17 on July 08, 2020, 05:04:05 PM
If that's the question, bottom line is neither. Im retired and can hunt every day, so the mature bucks offer more challenge and when lucky enough to get one, more meat, better horns, but primarily its a satisfaction derived from challenge.
So it’s about personal challenge and not herd health. Got it. Take away options from the guy that has a weekend to hunt and wants to fill his freezer so a person who can hunt every day has more of a challenge.
Post by: buckfvr on July 08, 2020, 05:17:45 PM
Post by: vandeman17 on July 08, 2020, 05:20:07 PM
I should add that I liked the last apr but am rarely a fan of doing things that take away opportunities unless it is to improve herd health
Post by: JL on July 08, 2020, 05:27:21 PM
Post by: Buckhunter24 on July 08, 2020, 05:50:25 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on July 08, 2020, 05:57:01 PM
I didn’t list a third option, you did. Lack of commitment now too. Got itI get the feeling that whatever he says you will Keep up with the pointless prodding.... the guy cant win. Prime example of why some people dont post much anymore.
I should add that I liked the last apr but am rarely a fan of doing things that take away opportunities unless it is to improve herd health
Post by: vandeman17 on July 08, 2020, 06:05:29 PM
I didn’t list a third option, you did. Lack of commitment now too. Got itI get the feeling that whatever he says you will Keep up with the pointless prodding.... the guy cant win. Prime example of why some people dont post much anymore.
I should add that I liked the last apr but am rarely a fan of doing things that take away opportunities unless it is to improve herd health
I asked a simple question that he avoided multiple times. If that is a prime example of getting a person to not post then so be it. He emphatically stated his desire for an apr and I wanted to know why. That’s how discussions work
Post by: buckfvr on July 08, 2020, 06:19:21 PM
I have spent literally thousands of hours glassing whitetail to better understand their habits and herd interaction or lack of it. Pictures help some, but allow folks to draw their own conclusions which can be wrong. Observing them undetected will give you the greatest education you can get about deer.
I will have a great 2020 season with or without a kill, but for sure, it will be my choice. apr or no apr, doesn't matter to me, but from last time I can tell you we all observed better overall hunting.
Some people need to focus on what and why they do what they do and quit worrying about what others say and do.
Post by: vandeman17 on July 08, 2020, 06:34:09 PM
I did answer your question, just not like youd hoped, and you did make a 3rd option when you asked meat or antler then said oh so not for herd health. You guys are very contrary and judgmental.
I have spent literally thousands of hours glassing whitetail to better understand their habits and herd interaction or lack of it. Pictures help some, but allow folks to draw their own conclusions which can be wrong. Observing them undetected will give you the greatest education you can get about deer.
I will have a great 2020 season with or without a kill, but for sure, it will be my choice. apr or no apr, doesn't matter to me, but from last time I can tell you we all observed better overall hunting.
Some people need to focus on what and why they do what they do and quit worrying about what others say and do.
Your last statement sums it up. It’s what you want, and that’s mature deer for their challenge and there is nothing wrong with that. It’s your outlook and opinion but to call other hunters who want to try and kill a deer for the experience and the meat not committed is hypocritical. I don’t see why we can’t have some kind of apr system that doesn’t allow for some any buck harvest for youths and disabled.
Post by: Buckhunter24 on July 08, 2020, 06:40:06 PM
The answer to that is the more mature a buck is, the more meat you get first, then, and only if the buck gets to live to full maturity, the antler thing can be better. But if you read up on whitetails and QDMA, you will discover that the vast majority of bucks only ever get average antlers. They have to have more than age going for them (especially in Wa.) to become actual trophy whitetails. Granted, your 5 1/2 yr old and older bucks will have better antlers, but not always trophy quality, and how many guys you know who have killed 5 1/2 or older whitetails.
You didn't answer what I was asking. You just gave me information, not why YOU want to kill a mature buck versus a young buck. I actually like the APR but with some conditions so I just wanted to clarify why guys are for it. :tup:
Why do you like the APR vanderman?
Post by: JL on July 08, 2020, 06:50:29 PM
Jumping on the man because he's after big bucks... I don't get it.
Post by: buckfvr on July 08, 2020, 06:57:40 PM
Field identification of mature bucks more often comes down to observing body size and attitude. Next and easiest but often wrong is to base maturity only on antlers.
Post by: vandeman17 on July 08, 2020, 06:57:46 PM
Post by: vandeman17 on July 08, 2020, 07:07:49 PM
Look beyond committed. Look more closely at commitment, as that's what most guys cant make......I may have used the wrong wording, but rethinking, a hunter can be committed while on the other hand be either unwilling or unable to commit the necessary time and effort into usable scouting and preparation for your hunt, and then the hunt may be too short. I know plenty of guys who suffer this each season. We used to be able to take our time off and hunt 101 late archery for 1 week and have multiple opportunities. Now, as some of my friends are finding out, one week probably isn't going to get it done.
Field identification of mature bucks more often comes down to observing body size and attitude. Next and easiest but often wrong is to base maturity only on antlers.
Yes that is where it’s another case of not being able to make everyone happy. I remember plenty of years where my sports commitments only allowed me a weekend or two to hunt and that was skipping games or practice. Now, I am lucky in that i have lots of time to hunt because I don’t have kids but I have plenty of buddies that do. It’s hard for them to even get a weekend a season to hunt.
Post by: buckfvr on July 08, 2020, 07:28:30 PM
Ive been retired for 14 years and live and breath whitetail. I have been able to spend crazy amounts of time in their woods watching them. As a result, I have passed more legal bucks than I had killed the previous 20 years. I mostly passed at first to lengthen my time in the woods, but learned in the mean time, I could always back up and get one of the passed up bucks in the 11th hour if need be. Cams and an ever watchful eye will tell you if you have a real life time buck. If you know one is around, its hard to cut a tag on another buck until you have to. I ate 17s and 18s thinking it would happen at some point only to be beat by his nocturnal habits that were evident from 2013. Never a picture or sighting in legal shooting light. As it turned out, 2018 was his best rack, 2019 being his first year down. 2019 was also the first time he dropped his guard and fortunately luck had me there.
I hunt mature bucks because they are also very interesting in that they all behave a little different, just like people, and they sure don't all get along, just like people. When you get to the point where you can spend the time, do yourself a favor and learn to pass until you know for a fact your still going to be excited after you walk up on it. Trophy as in scoring and books and such, not for me......give me good mass and brow tines to go with a Sherman tank body and Im in. :twocents:
Post by: Jonathan_S on July 08, 2020, 07:39:15 PM
We have cold hard evidence of how effective the last APR was. Asking if the effect is on herd health OR trophy quality OR numbers OR genetics is a dumb false choice. Multiple things can be true at once.
Guys like buckfvr don't have trouble finding mature bucks to hunt APR or not.
Post by: Buckhunter24 on July 08, 2020, 07:59:42 PM
Post by: jrebel on July 08, 2020, 08:38:18 PM
"I get the feeling that whatever he says you will Keep up with the pointless prodding.... the guy cant win."
Jumping on the man because he's after big bucks... I don't get it.
No ones jumping on the guy!! He throws mud and can’t take it back. Read the entire post. He clearly is the whitetail expert and no one else knows anything. He discredits people (kids specifically) that kill small bucks or does but then says a trophy is in the eye of the beholder. He belittles others but can’t be belittled. He has some valid points and is likely a good guy....but he has a few double standards on this post. So people are just calling bull dung and he doesn’t like it because people don’t agree with him.
Post by: bustedoldman on July 08, 2020, 09:02:15 PM
"I get the feeling that whatever he says you will Keep up with the pointless prodding.... the guy cant win."
Jumping on the man because he's after big bucks... I don't get it.
No ones jumping on the guy!! He throws mud and can’t take it back. Read the entire post. He clearly is the whitetail expert and no one else knows anything. He discredits people (kids specifically) that kill small bucks or does but then says a trophy is in the eye of the beholder. He belittles others but can’t be belittled. He has some valid points and is likely a good guy....but he has a few double standards on this post. So people are just calling bull dung and he doesn’t like it because people don’t agree with him.
Reading this page from start to finish I didn’t see any of that? I know neither of you, but I’m not going to judge you by your words on a forum As they can be misread and misinterpreted. I think every hunter has their own thoughts and expectations of what they want or feel the hunting world should be. The more divided hunters become the less opportunity there will be for all!
Post by: hunter399 on July 09, 2020, 06:22:50 AM
Who cares why buckfvr wants it or why you think your reason for wanting it is superior? The (positive) result is the same whether any of us want it or not.I AGREE
We have cold hard evidence of how effective the last APR was. Asking if the effect is on herd health OR trophy quality OR numbers OR genetics is a dumb false choice. Multiple things can be true at once.
Guys like buckfvr don't have trouble finding mature bucks to hunt APR or not.
The goal is same across the board.
Some spikes have to be left to walk.
The numbers don't lie more mature deer was harvested in 2014 then any buck harvest numbers now ,which paints a pretty crapy picture of the shape of our deer herds are in.
Now why would I put a 4pt restriction ,have a significant drop in harvest rates .Then have WDFW turn late season into a permit only hunt or shorten the season.The questions on the survey about permits and season length was beyond me BS I say.
There was Alot of talk about predator management early on in this thread.And YES I do agree we are knee deep in them here.
But I wouldn't expect huge changes.
Predator/prey study is going to take awhile ,the same people that do these study's are not pro-hunting type of people.
Bear Hunting we have the two tags I would enjoy them and utilize them ,I have heard that they where not expecting harvest rates to double like they have .And we should enjoy that option for as long as we can.
Cougar hunting I have heard many things about .But one thing I know is I wouldn't expect harvest rates to change much .seasons and quotas may change but harvest rates may go up one year and down the next to acomadate what WDFW want harvest rates to be.
Cougar+wolves management in this state is a lost cause (just my opinion).
A APR in the ne corner is a instant game changer to better deer herd management.
With maybe some opportunities for youth at least.
Let's paint a picture.
Father+son go hunting ne corner
Son can shoot any buck-father 4pt min
Son harvest spike
Father ends up seeing a few buck but nothing with 4pt.
Meat goes in the freezer,a few bucks walk for the next youth hunter or the next season.
It's a win -win I say meat went in the freezer,conservation of our herds ,and a good hunt to place .
Now I know every picture or opinion of a good hunt is different .But my favorite part is the conservation part.
Post by: buckfvr on July 09, 2020, 08:08:45 AM
"I get the feeling that whatever he says you will Keep up with the pointless prodding.... the guy cant win."
Jumping on the man because he's after big bucks... I don't get it.
No ones jumping on the guy!! He throws mud and can’t take it back. Read the entire post. He clearly is the whitetail expert and no one else knows anything. He discredits people (kids specifically) that kill small bucks or does but then says a trophy is in the eye of the beholder. He belittles others but can’t be belittled. He has some valid points and is likely a good guy....but he has a few double standards on this post. So people are just calling bull dung and he doesn’t like it because people don’t agree with him.
Spin your yarns, interpret my posts to suite your anger, I dont care and could care less if ANYONE agrees with me. You sling all the mud you want, it seems to make you feel better.
Post by: vandeman17 on July 09, 2020, 08:42:26 AM
You don't have to take my word for 18mo 4x, theres plenty of others on here and elsewhere who know their deer. For a significant number of us, youth killing doe and any buck is the same as a participation trophy for sports, only since the kid went hunting, he/she gets to kill something. Don't miss read my feelings as unsupportive of youth as that is the only alternative option I do support......the youth hunt.
I believe this is the statement that started the back and forth. It could have been misinterpreted or misconstrued on either side :twocents:
Post by: buckfvr on July 09, 2020, 09:50:02 AM
Post by: vandeman17 on July 09, 2020, 09:56:09 AM
Oh ya, it does offend some but on the other hand I know lots of guys who see it that way. Its a perspective not an accusation of wrong doing.
I think that pretty much sums it up. We all have different perspectives and motives and that is why implementing new rules and regs will almost never please everyone.
Post by: Pegasus on July 09, 2020, 12:32:10 PM
Oh ya, it does offend some but on the other hand I know lots of guys who see it that way. Its a perspective not an accusation of wrong doing.
I think that pretty much sums it up. We all have different perspectives and motives and that is why implementing new rules and regs will almost never please everyone.
It would be easier if the WDFW was looking at eliminating the predators vs making more rules that limit hunting. All they have to do to fix this is eliminated the wolves and save 3000 deer a year. Pretty sure that would fix the deer shortage. If not they could allow more cougar quotas with longer seasons as they are, by far, the biggest factor in deer management. Instead they believe that they have to lessen the hunting experience to fix any problem. Pretty clear who they represent and it ain't us.
Post by: Bango skank on July 09, 2020, 12:51:12 PM
Post by: Pegasus on July 09, 2020, 01:23:04 PM
They just did increase some cougar quotas, and will likely add more changes there this fall. They also increased bear hunting opportunity. But we cant manage just predators or just deer and expect to fix the problem, it needs to be both, and the apr/ no antlerless is part of that. Either way, they can give us all the predator management tools we need and it wont mean jack if people dont actually go out there and actively hunt predators, which the vast majority of deer snd elk hunters dont.
All WDFW has to do is put an open season on those wolves or cougars with a bounty and this problem ends. Just like it did when we did it years ago.
Post by: Bango skank on July 09, 2020, 01:51:02 PM
Post by: Pegasus on July 09, 2020, 02:10:44 PM
You really think it would be that easy? Wdfw declares it and it would be so? Get real man.
Works every time you offer a substantial bounty. Not saying there would not be lawsuits to stop it but that is how we controlled predators in the past. We eliminated the wolves in the 1930's doing just that and controlled many other predators by doing the same. It works.
Post by: Bango skank on July 09, 2020, 02:22:31 PM
Saying "all wdfw needs to do is put a bounty on wolves and cougars and ask that we eliminate them" is absurdly unrealistic on many levels.
You seem to be against good deer management practices being implemented in northeast washington because we have a predator problem. Do you hunt whitetail here?
Post by: Pegasus on July 09, 2020, 02:55:13 PM
My point is that even if wdfw said "were going to do this" it would be stopped before it ever began. And wolves were wiped out not just with a bounty, but with poisoning too, not to mention leghold traps which are illegal in this state, as are hounds for cougars. Without hounds do you really think a bounty on cougar would cause any significant increase in harvest?
Sayimg "all wdfw needs to do is put a bounty on wolves and cougars and ask that we eliminate them" is absurdly unrealistic on many levels.
I am all for bringing back leghold traps and hounds as that would be a tremendous help. My point really was if you look at what the wolves are taking from the deer population and they have only been here a few years and yet are probably now killing as many deer as the hunters are. No reason to look elsewhere for the reason in the reduction in the deer herd. Its obvious. They are also responsible for wiping out Washington's mountain caribou and devastating our moose population. Lets not forget the costs associated with managing the wolves and the impact on the local cattle ranches. These wolves are a genetically different animal from the wolves that used to roam here and therefore are not a native species. They should be removed just like the goats are in the Olympics. Those wolves can be removed very easily especially since a number of them are wearing tracking collars. I don't think we need to use poison to eliminate the wolves but bounties are an effective motivation. Attacking the hunters is unnecessary but as the WDFW is determined to do so I voted for the antler restriction that excludes the youth.
Post by: Bango skank on July 09, 2020, 03:22:02 PM
Post by: Pegasus on July 09, 2020, 03:34:07 PM
Yeah, wolves are a problem, and so are cats. But this is about apr, not predator management. Do you hunt whitetail up here?
Sometimes but not in the last few years. I know it is about apr but there would be no need for apr if the wolves were gone which is why i brought the facts about who kills what including the predators into this conversation. It is an eye opener and demonstrates what the WDFW has not done for hunters while those wolves have become their darlings.
Post by: Bango skank on July 09, 2020, 03:41:08 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on July 09, 2020, 09:44:28 PM
Post by: Bango skank on July 14, 2020, 10:08:14 PM
Post by: 10thmountainarcher on July 14, 2020, 10:15:12 PM
this being a seemingly randomly issued survey, im curious how many here received it, and how many who received it live in the ne corner. I added a poll.
My guess is, if you reported hunting in one of the units in the survey, you got the survey.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on July 15, 2020, 05:42:07 AM
Post by: hunter399 on July 15, 2020, 05:43:05 AM
I didn't hunt the area or receive the surveyI know mine was in my junk mail/spam box.
Post by: Tracker0721 on July 15, 2020, 06:11:58 AM
So for 101 and whitetails anyone who thinks we need more restrictions hasn’t been hunting it for the past 20 years or are only hunting it from the road.
Picture added of 1 of 4 nice whitetails we just saw while hiking in what used to be muley country. 1 muley doe and we spotted over a dozen whitetails on a quick walk with the dogs up a mountain. Hunters need to hunt and they’ll find plenty of game. Biologist need to do their jobs and figure out population densities and they need to make science and fact based researched proposals - not sending out a questionnaire at random because guy A may never get more than a quarter mile from the main road and only gets out around noon while guy b may be out before sun up and be watching a meadow fill up with deer a mile from any road every day.
Science based game management not opinion based.
Post by: huntnnw on July 15, 2020, 06:36:12 AM
Post by: hunter399 on July 15, 2020, 09:02:19 AM
I got it and live in 101. They took away our doe hunting already, coasties complain the predators are eating all the game, but honestly I hunt/hike/etc everyday and we have 3 possibly 5 elk herds, small and traveling but we have no record of elk before. We have whitetails everywhere and up every drainage. And our turkey flocks are getting big. Now the only animal that’s disappearing is the mule deer herds. 20 years ago they were huge and we can’t shoot does and we have a 3pt antler restriction so clearly those don’t work or there’s a much bigger issue going on there.There is no late season for rifle deer season in 101 . :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:
So for 101 and whitetails anyone who thinks we need more restrictions hasn’t been hunting it for the past 20 years or are only hunting it from the road.
Picture added of 1 of 4 nice whitetails we just saw while hiking in what used to be muley country. 1 muley doe and we spotted over a dozen whitetails on a quick walk with the dogs up a mountain. Hunters need to hunt and they’ll find plenty of game. Biologist need to do their jobs and figure out population densities and they need to make science and fact based researched proposals - not sending out a questionnaire at random because guy A may never get more than a quarter mile from the main road and only gets out around noon while guy b may be out before sun up and be watching a meadow fill up with deer a mile from any road every day.
Science based game management not opinion based.
Would you be ok with a late season whitetail anybuck season?,and how long do you think whitetail population could hold up with late season attached?
And the Doe hunt for archery late season,I have never been a fan of in any gmu.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 15, 2020, 10:20:26 AM
Post by: Colville on July 15, 2020, 10:39:36 AM
The improvement in the deer hunting after 4 years of apr, and the decline after the apr was removed, were clear for anybody to see.
Wasn't clear to me. If your opinion is based on your observations, say so. If it's based on data, post it. I've done this multiple times. The #'s I've posted in other threads do not support your argument, unless what you mean by "improvement" was that the deer killed in the APR units, were "better" deer. Fewer deer overall were killed. The two units with APR were responsible for 56% of the region's kills pre APR, that fell to about 43% during APR, then returned to 56% after. During APR those two units produced 20% fewer deer, but deer with more points on their heads. Point is, the overall herd size was not driven up or down by APR. Winter, disease, doe hunting, predators are driving the overall herd size.
I'm sincerely interested in any data you want to share to make your point. I do not mind that you prefer the "quality" of APR units. I disagree with it. That said, you are making a claim that should be supported by data, if it's a scientific point. If its your preference for hunting esthetic, no need to explain.
Post by: hunter399 on July 15, 2020, 01:02:43 PM
From what I see from harvest reports Higher numbers across the whole district. :dunno: :dunno:The improvement in the deer hunting after 4 years of apr, and the decline after the apr was removed, were clear for anybody to see.
Wasn't clear to me. If your opinion is based on your observations, say so. If it's based on data, post it. I've done this multiple times. The #'s I've posted in other threads do not support your argument, unless what you mean by "improvement" was that the deer killed in the APR units, were "better" deer. Fewer deer overall were killed. The two units with APR were responsible for 56% of the region's kills pre APR, that fell to about 43% during APR, then returned to 56% after. During APR those two units produced 20% fewer deer, but deer with more points on their heads. Point is, the overall herd size was not driven up or down by APR. Winter, disease, doe hunting, predators are driving the overall herd size.
I'm sincerely interested in any data you want to share to make your point. I do not mind that you prefer the "quality" of APR units. I disagree with it. That said, you are making a claim that should be supported by data, if it's a scientific point. If its your preference for hunting esthetic, no need to explain.
And mature deer harvested. In 121\117
Post by: duckmen1 on July 15, 2020, 01:15:31 PM
Post by: Bango skank on July 15, 2020, 01:46:08 PM
From what I see from harvest reports Higher numbers across the whole district. :dunno: :dunno:The improvement in the deer hunting after 4 years of apr, and the decline after the apr was removed, were clear for anybody to see.
Wasn't clear to me. If your opinion is based on your observations, say so. If it's based on data, post it. I've done this multiple times. The #'s I've posted in other threads do not support your argument, unless what you mean by "improvement" was that the deer killed in the APR units, were "better" deer. Fewer deer overall were killed. The two units with APR were responsible for 56% of the region's kills pre APR, that fell to about 43% during APR, then returned to 56% after. During APR those two units produced 20% fewer deer, but deer with more points on their heads. Point is, the overall herd size was not driven up or down by APR. Winter, disease, doe hunting, predators are driving the overall herd size.
I'm sincerely interested in any data you want to share to make your point. I do not mind that you prefer the "quality" of APR units. I disagree with it. That said, you are making a claim that should be supported by data, if it's a scientific point. If its your preference for hunting esthetic, no need to explain.
And mature deer harvested. In 121\117
Youre not factoring in number of hunters. Higher success rate in 14. Not only was it a higher success rate, they were all 4pt+. And you need to look again. 121 had a higher total harvest in 2014 than in 2019, and with fewer hunters. Much better success. Youre not looking at the whole picture, youre trying to cherry pick data, showing a SLIGHTLY higher total take in unit 117, and disregarding number of hunters. Also, in 2014, i think late rifle was 5 days shorter than it was in 2019, and still had the higher success.
Post by: hunter399 on July 15, 2020, 01:52:32 PM
I AgreeFrom what I see from harvest reports Higher numbers across the whole district. :dunno: :dunno:The improvement in the deer hunting after 4 years of apr, and the decline after the apr was removed, were clear for anybody to see.
Wasn't clear to me. If your opinion is based on your observations, say so. If it's based on data, post it. I've done this multiple times. The #'s I've posted in other threads do not support your argument, unless what you mean by "improvement" was that the deer killed in the APR units, were "better" deer. Fewer deer overall were killed. The two units with APR were responsible for 56% of the region's kills pre APR, that fell to about 43% during APR, then returned to 56% after. During APR those two units produced 20% fewer deer, but deer with more points on their heads. Point is, the overall herd size was not driven up or down by APR. Winter, disease, doe hunting, predators are driving the overall herd size.
I'm sincerely interested in any data you want to share to make your point. I do not mind that you prefer the "quality" of APR units. I disagree with it. That said, you are making a claim that should be supported by data, if it's a scientific point. If its your preference for hunting esthetic, no need to explain.
And mature deer harvested. In 121\117
Youre not factoring in number of hunters. Higher success rate in 14. Not only was it a higher success rate, they were all 4pt+. And you need to look again. 121 had a higher total harvest in 2014 than in 2019, and with fewer hunters. Much better success. Youre not looking at the whole picture, youre trying to cherry pick data, showing a SLIGHTLY higher total take in unit 117, and disregarding number of hunters.
Look at 5pt harvest in 2014
Look at 2019 5pt harvest ,it's crazy.
I'm not sure if you are debating me or what bango.
But I've always been for the 4pt min.
So I'm not gonna be very argumentative.
I just posted some harvest rates so people can make there own opinions.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 15, 2020, 01:52:52 PM
I think he is agreeing and posting the data to prove your point.From what I see from harvest reports Higher numbers across the whole district. :dunno: :dunno:The improvement in the deer hunting after 4 years of apr, and the decline after the apr was removed, were clear for anybody to see.
Wasn't clear to me. If your opinion is based on your observations, say so. If it's based on data, post it. I've done this multiple times. The #'s I've posted in other threads do not support your argument, unless what you mean by "improvement" was that the deer killed in the APR units, were "better" deer. Fewer deer overall were killed. The two units with APR were responsible for 56% of the region's kills pre APR, that fell to about 43% during APR, then returned to 56% after. During APR those two units produced 20% fewer deer, but deer with more points on their heads. Point is, the overall herd size was not driven up or down by APR. Winter, disease, doe hunting, predators are driving the overall herd size.
I'm sincerely interested in any data you want to share to make your point. I do not mind that you prefer the "quality" of APR units. I disagree with it. That said, you are making a claim that should be supported by data, if it's a scientific point. If its your preference for hunting esthetic, no need to explain.
And mature deer harvested. In 121\117
Youre not factoring in number of hunters. Higher success rate in 14. Not only was it a higher success rate, they were all 4pt+. And you need to look again. 121 had a higher total harvest in 2014 than in 2019, and with fewer hunters. Much better success. Youre not looking at the whole picture, youre trying to cherry pick data, showing a SLIGHTLY higher total take in unit 117, and disregarding number of hunters.
More deer killed with antlerpoint restriction and all of the are over 4pt.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 15, 2020, 01:54:49 PM
Post by: Colville on July 15, 2020, 03:21:02 PM
From what I see from harvest reports Higher numbers across the whole district. :dunno: :dunno:The improvement in the deer hunting after 4 years of apr, and the decline after the apr was removed, were clear for anybody to see.
Wasn't clear to me. If your opinion is based on your observations, say so. If it's based on data, post it. I've done this multiple times. The #'s I've posted in other threads do not support your argument, unless what you mean by "improvement" was that the deer killed in the APR units, were "better" deer. Fewer deer overall were killed. The two units with APR were responsible for 56% of the region's kills pre APR, that fell to about 43% during APR, then returned to 56% after. During APR those two units produced 20% fewer deer, but deer with more points on their heads. Point is, the overall herd size was not driven up or down by APR. Winter, disease, doe hunting, predators are driving the overall herd size.
I'm sincerely interested in any data you want to share to make your point. I do not mind that you prefer the "quality" of APR units. I disagree with it. That said, you are making a claim that should be supported by data, if it's a scientific point. If its your preference for hunting esthetic, no need to explain.
And mature deer harvested. In 121\117
Talk about a cherry pick. You've compared one unit on only exactly two specific years in time and think that's a fair representation of how many more 4 pts should be available?
Here's the whole district from all the years that are published now.
APR units DistrictTotal 117/121 % missing % Deer not killed
2019 2129 4021 53
2018 2121 3845 55
2017 2505 4494 56
2016 3140 5560 56
2015 3499 6079 58
2014 2074 4478 46 * APR -10% 447
2013 1809 4146 43 * APR -13% 538
I can go back and search all my posts, but the years preceding the APR, the % that those two units contributed to the total output was consistently approximately 55%. In the APR, those two units contribute 43 to 45%.
The numbers are clear as day. Those two units will reduce their yields by 20% under APR. Because those are the two most productive units in the district, the missing 20% is between 400 and 700 bucks depending on the health of the heard at that time. In big years 6000 are killed, in bad 3500, but how those units perform is consistent.
If you take APR to the district, you'll reduce harvest of bucks by between 700 and 1300 deer every year. What makes more kills or less kills on any given year, herd size. Want larger herds, you have to have more does. It makes no difference if we hunt 4 pts or all bucks, only does make more bucks and there's been no case made by WDFW that does are not getting bred because of the age class of the bucks.
Post by: Bango skank on July 15, 2020, 03:34:13 PM
Post by: C-Money on July 15, 2020, 03:50:32 PM
https://www.pgc.pa.gov/Wildlife/WildlifeSpecies/White-tailedDeer/Pages/AntlerRestrictionsAreTheyWorking.aspx
Post by: Bango skank on July 15, 2020, 03:54:06 PM
I hope Washington would follow Pennsylvania with how antler restrictions are framed. PA use to have a 4pt min in the county I hunt. After hunter feedback and a few years it was changed to a "3 up" or 3 points not including the brow tine system. Hunters were having difficulties identifying a brow tine for the 4th point under the 4pt restriction. As we know, Whitetails usually have a brow, but PA felt it a good decision to move to a "3 up". It works. Plenty of nice bucks roaming the PA woods. It also provides plenty of bucks for youth hunters as they are allowed any buck. I think NE WA could benefit from this.
https://www.pgc.pa.gov/Wildlife/WildlifeSpecies/White-tailedDeer/Pages/AntlerRestrictionsAreTheyWorking.aspx
Im a fan of the "3 up" thing too. Thats what i would prefer, for both whitetail and mule. I hear about a lot of forkey mules getting left to rot. I would guess thats due to idiots shooting and just hoping for a 1" browtine. A 3 up rule should largely fix that.
Post by: duckmen1 on July 15, 2020, 04:47:26 PM
Post by: hunter399 on July 15, 2020, 05:19:03 PM
I will call you on your full houseFrom what I see from harvest reports Higher numbers across the whole district. :dunno: :dunno:The improvement in the deer hunting after 4 years of apr, and the decline after the apr was removed, were clear for anybody to see.
Wasn't clear to me. If your opinion is based on your observations, say so. If it's based on data, post it. I've done this multiple times. The #'s I've posted in other threads do not support your argument, unless what you mean by "improvement" was that the deer killed in the APR units, were "better" deer. Fewer deer overall were killed. The two units with APR were responsible for 56% of the region's kills pre APR, that fell to about 43% during APR, then returned to 56% after. During APR those two units produced 20% fewer deer, but deer with more points on their heads. Point is, the overall herd size was not driven up or down by APR. Winter, disease, doe hunting, predators are driving the overall herd size.
I'm sincerely interested in any data you want to share to make your point. I do not mind that you prefer the "quality" of APR units. I disagree with it. That said, you are making a claim that should be supported by data, if it's a scientific point. If its your preference for hunting esthetic, no need to explain.
And mature deer harvested. In 121\117
Talk about a cherry pick. You've compared one unit on only exactly two specific years in time and think that's a fair representation of how many more 4 pts should be available?
Here's the whole district from all the years that are published now.
APR units DistrictTotal 117/121 % missing % Deer not killed
2019 2129 4021 53
2018 2121 3845 55
2017 2505 4494 56
2016 3140 5560 56
2015 3499 6079 58
2014 2074 4478 46 * APR -10% 447
2013 1809 4146 43 * APR -13% 538
I can go back and search all my posts, but the years preceding the APR, the % that those two units contributed to the total output was consistently approximately 55%. In the APR, those two units contribute 43 to 45%.
The numbers are clear as day. Those two units will reduce their yields by 20% under APR. Because those are the two most productive units in the district, the missing 20% is between 400 and 700 bucks depending on the health of the heard at that time. In big years 6000 are killed, in bad 3500, but how those units perform is consistent.
If you take APR to the district, you'll reduce harvest of bucks by between 700 and 1300 deer every year. What makes more kills or less kills on any given year, herd size. Want larger herds, you have to have more does. It makes no difference if we hunt 4 pts or all bucks, only does make more bucks and there's been no case made by WDFW that does are not getting bred because of the age class of the bucks.
And throw this down.
Only does make bucks if they mate,low buck to Doe ratio,hunting pressure,bucks being nocturnal,mature bucks make more babies than spikes.Lower harvest by x amount of bucks on the landscape to ensure higher amount of fawns born .With fawn survival rate,high amount of predators a lot of factors go into the first three months.More fawns born=more fawns survive the first year.These I've heard your argument from many biologists "does only make fawns" Not every Doe is pregnanted .If you want to raise population as in right now.no Doe harvest and you raise buck to Doe ratio.With no Doe harvest last year,this is the perfect time to add bucks in the picture.The next few years would be a fawn explosion.