Post by: bornforhorns on April 15, 2009, 10:47:06 AM
It now is a Master Hunters hunt listed as a damage control hunt with only 6 permits instead of the usual 15 given to archery hunters AND THEY GET TO USE ANY FRICKING WEAPON FOR A ABOUT 5 MONTHS, INCLUDING THE RUT!!!!!!!! There goes the entire mature bull population for that hunt!!!
Post by: bornforhorns on April 15, 2009, 10:54:35 AM
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I see a new Master hunter hunt for moose which looks to be a late damage hunt but if drawn their OIL will be waived. I think that's BS. I think they could change it to not waived if not successful in harvest as I also see if drawn WDFW may not call if no nuisance reports are made. But if you do get your moose yer done. This is a pretty hard draw & can see a Master hunter taking multiple moose over the years when guys like me have been putting in for over 20 years. I think I remember this being on the proposals & I voted against it. Maybe set up a damage list like Montana, When they get a nuisance report they call who's on the list.
ANOTHER ONE OF THE HUNTS I WAS TALKING ABOUT FROM THE OTHER BIG GAME FORUM, I THINK KNOBFISH OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT POSTED IT. BS!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Crunchy on April 15, 2009, 10:59:15 AM
Post by: bbarnes on April 15, 2009, 03:43:49 PM
:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( HOW ABOUT THE PUMAS PLAIN'S TAG AT MOUNT SAINT HELEN'S THIS IS FEDRAL LAND AND SHOULD BE ACCESSABLE TO ANYONE WHO PAY'S TAX .THIS IS NOTHING LESS THAN DESCRIMANATION TO THE 200 THOUSAND PLUS HUNTERS WHO BUY TAG'S IN THIS STATE. THERE NEED'S TO BE A CLASS ACTION LAW SUIT OVER THIS.B BARNES KEEPING PUBLIC LANDS PUBLIC FOR EVERYONE NOT JUST STATE EMPLOYEES WHO TAKE THE COURSE ONLINE AT WORK WHILE WE PAY THERE WAGE. :boxin:
Post by: Crunchy on April 15, 2009, 04:08:55 PM
Post by: Cascade_Sherpa on April 15, 2009, 04:15:44 PM
In 20 years you will have to be certified like a master hunter to hunt elk anywhere in this state.
I agree with the previous posts. The folks in charge in Olympia, seem to have a grand vision..... and it appears to not include the interests of hunters. The MH program I feel is flawed in many ways. One of the "Damage" hunts in the Nooksack unit involved removing several 5-6 month pregnant cow elk; with any weapon choice, in January and February. Besides the fact that the animals are at their weakest point in the late winter, and pregnant. The "Master Hunter" who was involved is a co-worker; he was happy as a clam to walk out in a field, plug a couple elk, and have a tractor load them into his pickup..... all with the game warden in tow. Just doesn't seem ethical to me.
Post by: Crunchy on April 15, 2009, 04:19:41 PM
Post by: BULLZ-i on April 15, 2009, 05:08:57 PM
Post by: furbearer365 on April 15, 2009, 05:15:10 PM
Post by: Crunchy on April 15, 2009, 07:27:02 PM
IF THEY ARE SUCH MASTERS WHY THE HELL DO THEY NEED SO MANY MORE HUNTING OPPORTUNITIES THAN THE PUBLIC. IF THEY ARE MASTERS OF THIS DOMAIN, THEN THEY SHOULDN'T NEED 5 MONTHS THE KILL AN ELK OR DEER. THERE IS NO WAY I WOULD EVEN TRY TO BECOME ONE FOR THE SIMPLE FACT THAT I THINK THE WHOLE THING IS BS. GET RID OF THE MASTER HUNTERS >:( :bdid:
Why not reward those who did a little extra then what "most" other people do? Maybe Master Hunter is a bad name for it, but its just a title and thats it. I dont know of anyone walking around bragging about being a Master Hunter....
Post by: furbearer365 on April 15, 2009, 07:47:21 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on April 15, 2009, 07:55:25 PM
Call it what you want but i still think it is a sham. Why would someone who loves hunting enough to "do extra" get to hunt more. I do plenty of stuff to help out, but I am not going to capitalize on being able to hunt more just because I do what everyone should do anyway. I help where i can just to help and do my part, I don't need to chase the already overhunted elk herds around for 6 months. So you really think that the elk and deer should suffer that badly just because someone picked up trash. Why should our game take the blunt of the WDFW. Just my opinion but to each his own. Master hunter seasons begin in August and some are still going on in January. How the hell are the elk going to thrive and reproduce when hunted that long. GARBAGE
In many of these areas there wouldn't even be any hunting with out the MH program.
Post by: huntnphool on April 15, 2009, 08:22:28 PM
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MHThis is a nuisance hunt administered by a WDFW designated hunt master. Only master hunters may apply. These hunts will not affect accumulated points; and any weapon may
be used. Successful applicants will be contacted on an as-needed basis to help with specific sites of nuisance moose activity in designated areas. Not all successful applicants will be
contacted in any given year.
Nuisance???? Really???? Give me a break!!! There may be 1 or 2 moose out there that are a nuisance to farms but 20? Again give me a break!!! I will be willing to bet anyone that out of those 20 tags not one cow is removed. Are you telling me that it will be only bulls that are creating the nuisance, because more than likely it will be only bulls tagged.
The idea that they reduced the number of tags for permit applicants just to accommodate the"Master Hunters" really pisses me off, >:( and I've already drawn my tag and can't apply again. :bdid:
Post by: Crunchy on April 15, 2009, 08:45:31 PM
Post by: huntnphool on April 15, 2009, 08:50:58 PM
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I would like to think there are some valid reasons for doing so.
Squeaky wheel gets the grease!!!! ;)
Post by: jager on April 15, 2009, 09:03:02 PM
Quote
I don't question what they've done to earn that title, honestly,good for you. But, I can see several hunts... that were quality hunts, where someone with a loud voice representing them stole it from the general public. ie: Peshastin Archery bull permits.
It now is a Master Hunters hunt listed as a damage control hunt with only 6 permits instead of the usual 15 given to archery hunters AND THEY GET TO USE ANY FRICKING WEAPON FOR A ABOUT 5 MONTHS, INCLUDING THE RUT!!!!!!!! There goes the entire mature bull population for that hunt!!!
:yeah:
Damage control=big bull hunt >:(
Post by: RyanD on April 15, 2009, 11:19:37 PM
Post by: bbarnes on April 15, 2009, 11:22:39 PM
:bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bdid:
Post by: bornforhorns on April 16, 2009, 10:46:09 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on April 17, 2009, 06:08:27 AM
If the land owner want"s the wildlife off there property number 1 DON'T BUILD WHERE THE WILDLIFE LIVE'S.Number 2 give a person who ask permission a chance to hunt the property.Number 3 with the money the WDFW pays out to these land owners, it would be cheaper to pay for a fence and build it to keep the animals out.Finally number 4 if the program taught ethics, these M H wouldn't be hunting these animals at this time of year because it's not fair chase.Get a clue people hunting is now a Hobie not a way of life, or to say guess what i shot three elk and deer this year.
:bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bdid:
You are not getting the point. It has nothing to do with fair chase in most cases. It is about wildlife management and the MH is nothing but another way to handle nuisance wildlife.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 17, 2009, 06:27:02 AM
Post by: bbarnes on April 17, 2009, 04:59:26 PM
the benefit of the public.How is the M H program benefiting the public because the public is all off us not 1280 out of 277,000 hunters in this state.Ive also heard rumors that the deer and elk in the state of washington,will be opening a casino soon because they are loosing there land just like the Indians. :stirthepot:Does this get closer to the point,do M H have a have more rights to Federal land than other tax payers.B Barnes keeping the public land public.
Post by: billythekidrock on April 17, 2009, 07:19:56 PM
Nothing but? Your very wrong there!!
Ok, The MH program is just another tool in managing wildlife.
Either way the end result is the same. Those that do the program get to apply.
Post by: bbarnes on April 17, 2009, 08:43:03 PM
Everyone isn't eligible for this program,and myself i promote equal opportunity.The WDFW will sell hunting licences to felons, but they cant be a part of this.WE all pay taxes but we all cant hunt the same places,to me this is turning into some private
hunting ranch.I don't think that hunters as a hole support this. :bdid:WE as outdoor
people should promote all of the ethics and rules,and educate each other.Its Hard to support this program, when the state tax payers own the animals.Myself and my group have spent thousands of dollars,giving out t shirts ,stickers putting floats in parades
and putting on tours for law makers to show the problems in the state, and to raise awareness of the problems were facing.B Barnes keeping the public lands public and the wildlife.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 18, 2009, 08:45:29 PM
Post by: Little Dave on April 18, 2009, 09:15:04 PM
On the positive side, having this program as a resource, the department does have some leverage when negotiating wildlife management opportunities in communities like ... let's say Seattle... too many deer in Ravenna Park or something like that. They will be able to say that this guy they bring in has read the whole law and will abide by that, can reliably hit his target from where he will be situated, and he's not a felon.
So a few guys need to be avalilable to meet criteria like that. I suppose if this was the only incentive, hunting in Seattle parks, the program would have maybe 6 or 7 participants.
Post by: Slider on April 18, 2009, 09:27:13 PM
Post by: Little Dave on April 18, 2009, 09:32:28 PM
Describe an arrangement that will work better.
Post by: Sneaky on April 18, 2009, 09:38:56 PM
Post by: bbarnes on April 19, 2009, 01:45:10 AM
B Barnes keeping the public lands public. :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
Post by: billythekidrock on April 19, 2009, 05:48:49 AM
Your still not addressing the discrimination of the program against 277.000 hunters.Hunting Federal land that everyone should be able to hunt.
They tried that and it didn't work.
It was open to everyone, but just like anything, a few bad apples ruined it.
Post by: Kain on April 19, 2009, 08:12:21 AM
Do I think they should have taken hunting opportunities away from the regular hunting public? NO. Do they seem to disguise real hunting opportunities as damage hunts, maybe. Public land should be open to the PUBLIC for all recreational use. But I also think that there should be some reward for those that do something extra. Look at the guys that do the hunters ed classes, I think they deserve something extra for their time.
The course is a good thing and I would encourage all of you to look into it. We had a discussion a while back on what hunters can do to improve our image. I think the more of us that put in this extra effort the better we will look as a whole. If you have problems with parts of the program I would encourage you to let WDFW know what they are but I dont think you should attack the whole program.
Here is a picture of the study packet you have to read. Some have passed the test without reading all this stuff but it is rare.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi406.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp150%2FNaithankain%2Fmasterhunter.jpg&hash=07ea81f027aa819fdc2efb57efe7874170d666a9)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi406.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp150%2FNaithankain%2Fmasterhunter2.jpg&hash=962daffd101c2e871ac393f0cef8e225160aa2ac)
Post by: Slider on April 19, 2009, 08:29:16 AM
Post by: Kain on April 19, 2009, 09:02:33 AM
It would be cool if the MH could use the tag for their self or use it to take out a kid. That would be sweet. I think they should try to relocate some of these elk if they are such a pest. I know of a lot of areas that are short on elk. Would be good diversify the gene pool.
Post by: Little Dave on April 19, 2009, 09:18:20 AM
1. Hunting Federal land that everyone should be able to hunt.
2. Also isn't picking up the woods every outdoorsmans responsibility.
3. This is nothing but a free labor pool for the state to have the M H Volunteering, while they the WDFW do nothing and get paid with benefits from our tax dollars.
4. Last but not least when in the woods hunting you had better know the rules and regs or prepare to have the book thrown at you.
1. It is probably better that the state manages the wildlife rather than the federal agency. I do agree it would be a different hunting experience if everyone was able to hunt these federal lands. Perhaps some areas would be favored over others causing new population management problems.
2. Yeah, picking up the trash is a minimum responsibility. Removing burnt mobile homes, tire piles, and shot up appliances is a bit more work though. It requires more planning.
3. I agree that this is a free labor pool. I disagree that the biologists and wardens are sitting on their thumbs though. It is possible that may be a degree of waste in the Olympia board rooms. I believe it was Davy Crockett out of Tennessee who is among those responsible for establishing that state's motto as "The Volunteer State." There's absolutely nothing wrong with performing volunteer work that must be done... particularly if it helps in some small way from needing to increase taxes to pay for hired people to do the work if that's what you are suggesting. Who wants higher taxes or license fees anyway?
4. I agree that everybody should know the rules... and perhaps work within these constraints even when the warden isn't there to write tickets (as most already do).
Post by: furbearer365 on April 19, 2009, 12:54:27 PM
Post by: bbarnes on April 19, 2009, 05:05:09 PM
Post by: rasbo on April 19, 2009, 05:07:53 PM
M H you still have not addressed the issue of hunting on Federal land,the program was set up for damage issues and private property issues.It's turned into a reward program its unethical and theres no fair chase.I agree with furbearer 365 about the problem's at mt saint helen's it is overpursuit.The problems lie with The WDFW have they talked to the M H, about improving there image with the public.Let's talk a little biology i personally helped count the dead elk last year on the mud flow.The volunteers cut the femur bones looked in them,and then they would say yep they died of starvation.To me that left many unanswered questions #1 there were no predators eating these animals #2 The smelled funny #3 there were no skin,blood,urine,organ or any other samples taken.You would have thought there would be a toxicology test,taken with the timber company's spraying chemicals.Let's now talk law enforcement myself and many members of my group,have made countless trip over the last 3 years to Olimpia, to support them and try to get more dollars.Our volunteer hours are in the ten's of thousands,doing projects for the Forest Service the DNR and WDFW over the years.This was the right thing to do,and we certainly didn't need any reward or special privilege.Did i mention i spent out pocket over the last 2 years,over 10,000 dollars feeding the animals we all enjoy seeing and hunting.Still not asking for special privileges or extra hunting opportunity's.BBarnes keeping public lands public.good job barnes,big cudos on your work
Post by: BrushChimp on April 19, 2009, 05:13:48 PM
I don't see anything wrong with the Master Hunter priveledges. If you want one of the tags, then put in the time and effort to become a "Master Hunter." Everyone has this opportunity.
Herbicides have not been proven to kill elk. However, they have been proven to kill the browse that elk like to eat.
Post by: Ray on April 19, 2009, 05:15:16 PM
Post by: bbarnes on April 19, 2009, 06:19:24 PM
there will be opportunity,if we continue to look out only for our self's.You've got to think past yourself and include everyone else,my way of thinking is EVERYONE should have the same opportunities that i have had.The M H program should be like a eagle scout in the boy scouts, there no extras just a self satisfaction to you archived something that most thought couldn't be done.My hats off to the over achievers in life,that's something that i have personally chosen thoughout my life to be.In closing I'm still not and wont ever ask for opportunities over others because i choose to stand united BBarnes keeping public lands public.
Post by: billythekidrock on April 19, 2009, 06:44:17 PM
You guys think that everyone should be able to hunt everywhere? I sure don't. Too many yahoos out there.
What about the areas that are on the bubble as far as being against the law to hunt? Wouldn't you rather have an opportunity to hunt then not hunt at all?
The Quinault AHE/MH unit is a great example. Lots of the "new" locals (ex parkies, greeners, etc) don't want hunting in the valley. Years ago you could kill an elk in any one's pasture, property, etc. Now you can't hardly find a place to hunt because of a few yahoos that take it too far.
If it weren't for the AHE/MH program the special interest groups would have their way and there would be no elk hunting in the valley.
Quit whining and try the program. I bet half of the complainers couldn't pass the course.
Post by: Slider on April 19, 2009, 07:15:54 PM
Then why would this be a fair program?
Post by: billythekidrock on April 19, 2009, 07:27:56 PM
Quit whining and try the program. I bet half of the complainers couldn't pass the course.
Then why would this be a fair program?
It is fair in that anyone can sign up to try.
Why do we make people take a hunter education course to hunt? Wouldn't it be fair if everyone could just hunt?
Post by: RyanD on April 19, 2009, 07:42:39 PM
Quote
Quit whining and try the program. I bet half of the complainers couldn't pass the course
I really have no use for this program therfore I don't have any desire to pursue it. I have seen firsthand the product of this program... I wouldn't be too worried. :chuckle:
Now before everyone gets all fired up I know not everyone that goes through this program is the same. I personally hunted with one of them on a MH hunt and the exact quote I heard was "I got to go fill my free Weyerheauser beef tag". Wow great representation of the program...
I do congratulate everyone that completes the program but let me ask you this..
Why did you go through the program? Was is for the tag opportunities? Was it to improve hunter image? Just curios.
Post by: murphyranch on April 19, 2009, 08:15:02 PM
I have instead discovered that I like volunteering some of my time to helping clean up some of our areas so we can all be able to hunt in them instead of being locked up during hunting season. Also I want to help give all of us hunters a better reputation on our state so that we don't lose our right to Hunt and Fish. I also have gotten involved in a couple organizations that help me meet other like minded folks that are working for the same thing. I want my Son and grandsons to be able to go out and hunt and fish and do the kinds of things that I have had the privilege to experience in my life so far.
If we don't get our S**t together and start acting and showing responsibility and ethics in our sport we are going to be the last of a dying breed. What really chaps my ass is the whiners that don't have the gumption to get out and do a little work to keep our wildlife and lands in order and earn the possibility of maybe getting an extra hunt that they otherwise would not. And helping sustain our wild life and lands for our children. Why do you guys bitching about the MH think that you should have this privilege just handed to you while others do the work to earn it if they so desire. What the hell is wrong with you? This is the reason our great country is in the mess it is in everyone wants something for nothing. Ok I am of my soap box now.
Post by: RyanD on April 19, 2009, 08:25:49 PM
Quote
Why do you guys bitching about the MH think that you should have this privilege just handed to you while others do the work to earn it if they so desire. What the hell is wrong with you?
I am not sure who you are referring too but if you read my above post, I want no part of this program or the tags that is issues. I don't believe we (and I did say WE) should be chasing the animals for 5-6 months out of the year. Even if I was handed a tag to hunt the toledo Elk unit in august with a rifle. I would choose not too. I am the last person looking for a hand out!!! I'll get of my soap box now.
Post by: murphyranch on April 19, 2009, 08:33:26 PM
Post by: KillzElk on April 19, 2009, 08:35:53 PM
How ethical is it hunting in a farmers field. Why don't you try hunting fish in a barrel, After reading some of the replies looks to me there are many unanswered questions that are being missed .. LIKE THE WHOLE POINT OF MASTER HUNTERS. Is this Master Hunter program offered anywhere else in the US.. WHY only Washington State ?
Seems Fishy to me to put in place a MasterBater program.... :bash:
Post by: WDFW-SUX on April 19, 2009, 08:36:38 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on April 19, 2009, 08:38:58 PM
Looks to me after reading all the replies. :bash:
How ethical is it hunting in a farmers field. Why don't you try hunting fish in a barrel, After reading some of the replies looks to me there are many unanswered questions that are being missed .. LIKE THE WHOLE POINT OF MASTER HUNTERS. Is this Master Hunter program offered anywhere else in the US.. WHY only Washington State ?
Seems Fishy to me to put in place a MasterBater program.... :bash:
What part of this don't you understand? This program is primarily about stewardship.
The hunting part of this program is about putting the best hunters in the best position to handle nuisance animals or to hunt in sensitive areas.
And yes, other states have similar programs.
Post by: KillzElk on April 19, 2009, 08:51:43 PM
I see Success and Failure
As of 12/31/08, 11,279 people have applied throughout the history of the Program. Only 2,633 of them successfully completed the requirements and were certified. Some who were certified later dropped out or elected not to re-certify. At the end of calendar year 2008, there were 1,655 Certified Master Hunters. Why have so many applicants failed, and why have some dropped out?
Most applicants who fail to complete the requirements either don’t commit the time or don’t take the requirements seriously. It’s tough. It takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of initiative on your part. You have to decide that this is for you and you have to make the commitment to do the work. Nine months seems like plenty of time. It is, if you stay with it until it’s done. But if you start and stop a few times you’ll be out of time before you know it.
Master Hunters who drop out usually do so because they had the wrong impression about the Program. Many thought it was a special opportunity to kill a trophy animal, or a chance for special hunts that the regular hunters didn’t get. That’s not what it is. We’re a game management tool operating in a fishbowl in full view of the public.
I still think a Master Hunter should have a challenge to hunt, Not just handed to them for taking a test.. If you study and do your home work anyone can be one..
Post by: jager on April 19, 2009, 09:08:01 PM
I do know that I was going to put in for an archery permit this year to hunt elk. I was in this area (tiny unit) last year helping scout with some friends that drew the permit.
I was so impressed with the amount of really nice bulls I saw I decided to put in this year. It is no longer a draw option!
They gave out a handful of tags last year now its over a 100 and the season is 8 months long! Ummmm. That really doesn't make to much sense to me. How can that be good for the herd? I'm sure it's a combination of the whole restructuring of our seasons and random BS.
Again, it just goes back to the apparent lack of forethought or consideration by the WDFW.
Post by: furbearer365 on April 19, 2009, 09:11:09 PM
Post by: bbarnes on April 19, 2009, 09:36:33 PM
Post by: KillzElk on April 19, 2009, 09:57:07 PM
Who is a Master Hunter?
A Master Hunter is a person who possesses the desired combination of Ethics, Stewardship, Knowledge and Skill as applied to hunting and related activities.
Ethics:
Fair chase
Respect for laws
Respect for game
Respect for landowners
Respect for the public
Zero tolerance for violations
Knowledge:
Law & Regulations
Game
Firearms
Hunting heritage
Safety
Habitat vs Human activity
Stewardship:
Conservation
Mentoring
Service
CORT (Crime Obs & Rept Tng)
LNT (Leave no trace)
Education
Skill:
Shooting
Hunting & tracking
Care of meat
Wilderness survival
Who came up with these qualifications heck I can shoot a gun and never miss. :mgun: I know how to drink beer like them , I drive around gates. I know how to start a fire with a rock.... GIT-R-DONE.. These are all the same things 50% of the Master Hunters do does that qualify me ? ...
Post by: Crunchy on April 20, 2009, 07:33:46 AM
Post by: luvtohnt on April 20, 2009, 07:46:19 AM
Everyone who is fighting for this horrid program has nothing but gibberish to back up their opinion. If this program was instated to "take away the nuisance animals" why the hell are there draw tags every year, and a ton of them at that, being given to Master hunters in a walk in only area were they are able to hunt bull elk, drive in, and use a rifle. Are you seriously telling me that in all the area that is around my town there are literally hundreds of nuisance animals that we need these so-called masters hunter to get rid of them. Then on top of that have the ability to draw a second tag. All the fish and game did was tell everyone that they need help and they will give you the right to kill more and kill them easier. I don't understand why and how anyone who has hunted in this state can fight to say the this program does good for our herds. IN my opinion if it doesn't do good everywhere all the time, then we don't need it. IT is crazy to use a single example of where this program works and say that we need it around because in my area they do more damage than anything. LOOK AT THE WHOLE PICTURE AND DON'T BE SO CONSUMED WITH WHAT JUST EFFECTS YOU PERSONALLY.
Which hunt are you referring to in your post?
Quote
I know how to drink beer like them , I drive around gates. I know how to start a fire with a rock.... GIT-R-DONE.. These are all the same things 50% of the Master Hunters do does that qualify me ?
Not all MH are like that, I am one and I don't do any of that. Personally if you know them you should turn them in. That way the MH program will obtain an even better image. I have heard of others abusing this privilege, but they also get booted out (if they are caught). I would like to find out more about the unit mentioned above so I can see why there is such a big fuss.
Brandon
Post by: bornforhorns on April 20, 2009, 10:15:30 PM
Post by: mkcj on April 20, 2009, 10:42:32 PM
Post by: goiamo on April 21, 2009, 11:11:20 AM
I have been a Master Hunter for several years, but I have not used that status to harvest any animal yet, nor have I used it to apply for special permits. So, that is my disclaimer.
If you think, as has been implied in some of these posts, that Master Hunters are supposed to be the place to prove who is the "best" hunter, you have completely missed the point. Master Hunters are supposed to be partners with the Department of Fish and Wildlife to help manage wildlife, report violations, and enhance habitat. In doing so, Master Hunters are expected to uphold the highest standards of ethical behavior and present a positive image of hunting to the non-hunting public.
Many of the locations for the "special hunts" are in politically sensitive locations, in view of the general public and/or on private lands where hunting has been very limited by the owner. I am not aware of any of these being "trophy hunts," but the opportunity to take a "trophy" animal exists on some (just like general tags). It would be nice to have some confidence the person harvesting the "trophy" isn't going to tie it to his hood and display it at all the elementary schools.
Which raises my next point. No program is perfect (as demanded by at least one post). There are people who chose to become Master Hunters for the wrong reasons, just as some people chose a career for the wrong reasons. That does not make the career invalid, nor does it invalidate the Master Hunter program. Indeed, the Master Hunter program is addressing this issue in two prongs: 1. recruiting suitable hunters to participate in the program; and 2. establishing rules to remove violators from the program. You can help by reporting violations, whether committed by Master Hunters or anyone else.
The hunts for nuisance animals are focused on removing the offending animals, not the concepts of fair chase. After all, this program is to help the WDFW who deal with complaining citizens, not to prove hunting prowess. To the person who doesn't believe moose are a nuisance, I suggest some more time getting to know the Spokane Valley. WDFW was herding or transferring up to 5 moose per day out of residential areas of Spokane County this winter. That situation is dangerous and expensive. Few of those effected would argue that a "trophy" animal could not be a nuisance.
This blog can be a valuable tool for hunters to unify and address the important challenges facing our common interests. Unfortunately, it is easier to unite against something that in favor of something. We should have learned by now that the easier way is seldom the correct way to proceed. Vent your frustrations with enough privacy to avoid giving aid and comfort to the enemies of hunting and angling.
The Master Hunter program is not perfect. So, learn about the program, it's purpose, benefits, and short-comings, and make recommendations for improvements to the WDFW and the Master Hunter Advisory Group. The program continues to evolve, and together we can make it better. Together we can prove that hunting and poaching bear the same relationship as shopping and armed robbery. Together we can improve hunting opportunities for everyone.
--Richard G. Mathisen
Post by: boneaddict on April 21, 2009, 11:26:29 AM
Dirty topic as usual, but you made some great points Richard. Some simple recommendations that might help in this programs success.
one...very simple, change the name. As simpleton as that seems, master or being the master of something implies superiority. That will rub many the wrong way.
two....screen its members a little better. I know of at least one masterhunter that has just renewed that has more game violations thatn any other person I know. I can't believe he qualifies and it blows me away. This immediately puts doubt on th eprogram. I believe this could also weed out some of those that would be likely no commit further violations such as hunting the park near vantage etc. Supposedly a master should be able to read a map. The guy I am refering too shot a year two years ago on one of these tags in the wrong unit 3 miles from where he was supposed to be, on private land behind a no trespassing sign from his vehicle. Not the sort of image this program needs.
Three......I would suspect any OIL species being listed as a damage control hunt for this particular program. That would be like shooting the Swakane sheep because they keep causeing vehicle damage. Also not a good image for the program.
I am no way putting this program down as I believe some of it has merits, but am offering suggestions so that we are not fodder for the antis that you have mentioned.
Post by: huntnphool on April 21, 2009, 11:54:02 AM
Quote
in view of the general public and/or on private lands where hunting has been very limited by the owner.
In my not so humble opinion, the land owner that "very limits" or in most cases denies access to his/her land, that our game animals are damaging, will get no sympathy from me and should not get financial reimbursement, compensation or preferential treatment. You purchase land where game animals live and graze, deny access to hunters and then claim hardship, :bs: you made your bed now lay in it. To me its no different than those that build their homes on the edge of a river or in a flood plain and then whine and look for handouts when the river floods. :bash:
Perhaps I'm way off base, if so I apologize, maybe you can point out what I'm missing?
Post by: Crunchy on April 21, 2009, 11:54:18 AM
Post by: boneaddict on April 21, 2009, 12:08:49 PM
Post by: Alchase on April 21, 2009, 12:15:15 PM
Shame on you! Shame on the critics of this program who have not researched the background of the program and the hunting opportunities......
The Master Hunter program is not perfect. So, learn about the program, it's purpose, benefits, and short-comings, and make recommendations for improvements to the WDFW and the Master Hunter Advisory Group. The program continues to evolve, and together we can make it better. Together we can prove that hunting and poaching bear the same relationship as shopping and armed robbery. Together we can improve hunting opportunities for everyone.
--Richard G. Mathisen
That is a great post!
I do not know enough about the Master hunter Program to make a judgement if it is good or bad, but I believe we all could learn something by taking this advice to heart.
Thank you Richard G. Mathisen
Welcome to this site.
Post by: goiamo on April 21, 2009, 12:26:46 PM
Some of those Master Hunters I mentioned, who joined for the wrong reasons, have the access where others cannot get it, but joined the program to access the tags. That is what led to the huge black eye for the program and hunting in general on the hunt near Cheney several years ago. Now there is a screening for hunting convictions and a way to take away the Master Hunter status for violations. The tricky part here is trying to establish a legally defensible system for drumming out the ethical violaters who commit no crimes, slob hunters. I know the Master Hunter Advisory Group is struggling with this issue, but the answers are not easy to come by.
--Richard
Post by: oneezreiter on April 21, 2009, 12:37:45 PM
Post by: buck470 on April 21, 2009, 12:57:29 PM
There are actually Quite a few people on here that i'd like to see join the program, if they walk the talk, reading allot of the posts on here there are some very knowledgable, ethical people on here that would do this program some good, not sure what is keeping them from joining? the stink the program caries from the past or just the name it's self.
I've tried to do my part, as far as cleaning up the program, there were several people in a particular area that have been causing problems under the Master hunter status, and i've made the appropriate calls when ever i've seen them in action. Had some long conversations with people in Enforcement, but they are still in. I'm looking forward to turning them in again next year, until there out or change there way's. I also will be doing more to educate the land owners on the Effects of turning these people in, one voilation and there out! People seem to tolerate there behavior to a point, if they knew that one violation would get them removed, maybe they would be more apt to report them.
Post by: boneaddict on April 21, 2009, 01:25:10 PM
Quote
not sure what is keeping them from joining?
I already volunteer my time picking up garbage. I already am eyes in the woods, I don't need the extra hunts it provides. I am already a steward for wildlife. I think its incentive enough to do those things on my own so that my kids have a future without having to be repaid somehow. I don't like what the name represents, and I don't want to be part of something that has limited standards and allows rifraf to take advantage of things. I know a couple guys that do it justice but I know more that are worthless that take advantage.
Post by: rasbo on April 21, 2009, 01:30:33 PM
x2 except I dont know anyone thats in the master hunter program..Quotenot sure what is keeping them from joining?
I already volunteer my time picking up garbage. I already am eyes in the woods, I don't need the extra hunts it provides. I am already a steward for wildlife. I think its incentive enough to do those things on my own so that my kids have a future without having to be repaid somehow. I don't like what the name represents, and I don't want to be part of something that has limited standards and allows rifraf to take advantage of things. I know a couple guys that do it justice but I know more that are worthless that take advantage.
Post by: workstohunt on April 21, 2009, 01:40:28 PM
I can see most of the people complaining have not researched the program or been to any of the informational meetings put on by the WDFW.
Post by: buck470 on April 21, 2009, 02:01:12 PM
Nothing says you have to accept any "reward" so take the test, and try and change the problem from with in? Probally make a few extra friends along the way?
The program could use some more " ethical sportsmen" to help change things around.
(I won't tell anyone your a "Master Hunter") attempt at humor
Post by: Crunchy on April 21, 2009, 02:16:39 PM
Great idea, lord knows they are both very outspoken, of course in a good way :chuckle:
Post by: rasbo on April 21, 2009, 02:23:13 PM
Bone and Rasbo,:chuckle: :chuckle: well at least I know its not you or crunchy ignoring me..I will ponder this some more :hello:
Nothing says you have to accept any "reward" so take the test, and try and change the problem from with in? Probally make a few extra friends along the way?
The program could use some more " ethical sportsmen" to help change things around.
(I won't tell anyone your a "Master Hunter") attempt at humor
Post by: boneaddict on April 21, 2009, 02:26:51 PM
Post by: rasbo on April 21, 2009, 02:29:45 PM
Probably make a few enemies too. :chuckle:you aint right bone :chuckle: :chuckle: :hello:
Post by: buck470 on April 21, 2009, 03:01:15 PM
Probably make a few enemies too. :chuckle:
Sometimes that happen's! oh well.... water off a ducks back.
Post by: buckhorn2 on April 21, 2009, 03:05:05 PM
Post by: bearhunter59 on April 21, 2009, 03:40:18 PM
And, you should really heed Richards advise and learn something about the program before you start your bitchin and whinin, because with your lack of knowledge about the program, that is all it comes off as...bitchin and whinin'.
1) Changing the name has been brought up, and the MHAG is looking into coming up with a different name. The program isn't about hunting, it's about conservationism, and being a tool for the department to use.
2) It is not about "extra" hunting tags or privledges; it is about using resources(ie...the hunter) in sensitive locations, where a higher degree of proficiency and ethics is needed.
3) Do you really believe that the MH is the only ones that are hunting the animals in the August to Feb timeframe? Let's see we have the early Archery, early ML, regular rifle, late ML, late Archery....hmm, maybe we should eliminate the early and late seasons? Would that make you happier? I don't think so, but it would address your concern about the animals being chased so long.
There are a lot of things the WDFW would like to be able to handle differently, but they not only have to appease all of us whiney hunters, but those bambi-lovin', tree-huggin' land owners too. (Oooh, the elk are tearing up my yard and fence, but don't shoot them...just pay me money...)
For those of you who keep referring to Master Hunter incidents from years past should really learn something about the program before you start bitchin' about it. The program was froze in mid-07, to undergo a complete revamping. Part of that revamping had to do with getting the WACs and RCWs changed so the WDFW could legally kick the felons out of the program. And they had to get the RCW changed again this year to get it so even a fishing violation gets you removed from the program. Before, it was just game violations that could get you removed. They tried to create a Peer Review board to kick MH out of the program that had done something unethical, or just plained looked bad in the publics eye, (but wasn't an actual game violations),but the State Attorney General said it was illegal, so we can't have one.
I can tell you, if you really, truly know of a Master Hunter, presently in the program that has game violations (within the last 10 years), give Mike Kuttel a call, and he will get them removed. Got an issue with the Master Hunter program, contact any one of the 15 Master Hunter Advisory Group members, and voice your concerns with them. These guys are just regular guys off the street, like you or me, and want to make the program the best it can be.
So, far, I haven't really seen anything in any of these bitchin' posts that clearly states a real problem with the program. It's kind of funny to me, to read on here, all you guys bitchin' and whinin' about the requirements of the program, but haven't read anything from anyone of you about having to pass a Hunter Ed class, just to be able to get a license in this state. Granted, if born before 79(?), you don't have to take the class. Or, let see, some of you have used the argument, "what other state has this type program?" Well, a lot of the states require you pass a Hunter Safety course before you can get a license...regardless of what age you are or when you were born. Maybe Washington state should be like them too, huh? How many of you then would be able to even get a license. I mean...."IT'S NOT FAIR....WHHAAAAA, I've been hunting 20+ years, and haven't killed anyone, so why should I have to take a hunter ed course?
By the way, I am a Master Hunter!!!
For those of you that are bitchin' about the Master Hunter program, here's a thought....Build a bridge, and get over it!! Whhhaaaaa, you bunch of whiners, anyway...
Post by: boneaddict on April 21, 2009, 04:09:09 PM
Quote
The program was froze in mid-07, to undergo a complete revamping. Part of that revamping had to do with getting the WACs and RCWs changed so the WDFW could legally kick the felons out of the program. And they had to get the RCW changed again this year to get it so even a fishing violation gets you removed from the program. Before, it was just game violations that could get you removed. They tried to create a Peer Review board to kick MH out of the program that had done something unethical, or just plained looked bad in the publics eye, (but wasn't an actual game violations),but the State Attorney General said it was illegal, so we can't have one.or does it take a nark to get it done. The guy that I was referencing in the past got in just fine even after he flunked the test twice. This is your creme of the crop. and I don't need a bridge, I put my chest waders on and am up to my neck in it even if its a cesspool I am crossing.
Post by: boneaddict on April 21, 2009, 04:10:44 PM
Post by: rasbo on April 21, 2009, 04:17:52 PM
Post by: JohnB on April 21, 2009, 04:30:09 PM
Post by: buck470 on April 21, 2009, 04:45:03 PM
It's everyones responsibility to turn these people in, Everyone has to admit there are Slob hunters out there, 99% of the time these are the people get us bad Publicity. Why not Weed them out, and Some of these Slob's Have an IQ and work there way into the MH Program, they Need Weeded out even worse, because we are suppose to be "Above the Rest", I'm not saying I'm better than anyone else, but because I'm in the Program, I'm suppose to be. As far as Ethic's and Law abiding.
I know that gonna get me in trouble, but not sure how else to word it??
Post by: WOODS on April 21, 2009, 05:12:13 PM
seasons must be cut. The master hunter program is a control tool for the WDFW. Its cheaper to control and monitor 10 persons than 1000. Limit hunters access and still show that there is control over habitat and natural resources to the public. Honest, ethical people have taken the Master Hunters course and jumped threw a unknown political agenda. Their work is admirable however the powers that be are useing them for more and more control. Public rights going to a special few is elitist. They start with small control regulations like safety locks on your guns
and tell you that you are only ethical if you take this safety class and register your gun. You wake up the next day at Starbucks thinking you need to hug a tree and recycle your toilet paper.
Post by: boneaddict on April 21, 2009, 05:27:34 PM
Post by: woodswalker on April 21, 2009, 05:39:20 PM
I have to say I went through the MH last year. It took a bit of work to complete but I did. I admit that one of the reasons I went through it was for the special hunts as well as learning more about all aspect's of hunting and wildlife and ethics. But my thinking has changed somewhat since I have completed it and I have no plans in putting in for any of the special hunts.
I have instead discovered that I like volunteering some of my time to helping clean up some of our areas so we can all be able to hunt in them instead of being locked up during hunting season. Also I want to help give all of us hunters a better reputation on our state so that we don't lose our right to Hunt and Fish. I also have gotten involved in a couple organizations that help me meet other like minded folks that are working for the same thing. I want my Son and grandsons to be able to go out and hunt and fish and do the kinds of things that I have had the privilege to experience in my life so far.
If we don't get our S**t together and start acting and showing responsibility and ethics in our sport we are going to be the last of a dying breed. What really chaps my ass is the whiners that don't have the gumption to get out and do a little work to keep our wildlife and lands in order and earn the possibility of maybe getting an extra hunt that they otherwise would not. And helping sustain our wild life and lands for our children. Why do you guys bitching about the MH think that you should have this privilege just handed to you while others do the work to earn it if they so desire. What the hell is wrong with you? This is the reason our great country is in the mess it is in everyone wants something for nothing. Ok I am of my soap box now.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on April 21, 2009, 05:44:03 PM
Post by: bbarnes on April 21, 2009, 06:14:22 PM
M H get verse the rest of the 277,000 hunters paying the bills here.B Barnes keeping the
public lands public and still not asking for any extra opportunity's :)
P.S. we need to hear the stories
Post by: WOODS on April 21, 2009, 07:06:38 PM
The master hunters are helping with this control and are being indoctrinated to believe that they need to help with conservation. The agenda for the liberals is preservation and elimination of hunting. The propaganda train is in full steam. Socialism is on its way in. Guess I wont be buying deer tags this year in Washington. As for hunting....... ;D
Post by: furbearer365 on April 21, 2009, 07:34:31 PM
Post by: agchawk on April 21, 2009, 07:48:16 PM
"...don't be a part of something and definately don't argue with it when you don't know the in's and out's of each and every aspect of what the program is doing. DO SOME ACTUAL RESEARCH AND YOU WILL BE AMAZED AT WHAT YOU WILL FIND. I will amit that i don't know what all good this program brings, but the reason i don't is because of all of the negative."
I really don't have a lot that hasn't already been voiced in this thread. However, I had to point out the above comment. Really, you can't rail a guy for commenting on a program that he may/may not know all the "ins and outs" about and then turn around and ADMIT that you are doing exactly that. I think if you follow your own advice that you so freely throw out to others and "do some actual research" on the good aspects of the program you may also be amazed at what you might find.
Again, I have my thoughts on the program and have friends on both sides of the fence. Myself....I'm not entirely sure which way I want to go with it at this point. I just don't like seeing folks get slammed for voicing their opinions and then getting jumped by folks that are admittedly no more informed on the subject than the first guy. Problems are NEVER solved this way...they just continue to fester, cause animosity, and eventually nothing changes.
Post by: colockumelk on April 21, 2009, 10:03:19 PM
If the land owner want"s the wildlife off there property number 1 DON'T BUILD WHERE THE WILDLIFE LIVE'S.Number 2 give a person who ask permission a chance to hunt the property.Number 3 with the money the WDFW pays out to these land owners, it would be cheaper to pay for a fence and build it to keep the animals out.Finally number 4 if the program taught ethics, these M H wouldn't be hunting these animals at this time of year because it's not fair chase.Get a clue people hunting is now a Hobie not a way of life, or to say guess what i shot three elk and deer this year.
:bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bdid:
:yeah:
The WDFW pays out $20,000 a year to the hay farmers in Kittitas County for "elk damages" yet I see cattle wintering in the hay fields. How do elk hurt the hay yet the cattle do not. No one has yet to explain this to me. Also in the Colockum there are not any elk fences like you see every where else. So of course the elk are going to eat hay. Exactly like b.barnes said. Hey farmers how about you build a fence. What a novel concept huh. I must be a genius. Or how about instead of the WDFW giving them money why don't they take that money and BUILD A FENCE. Wow what a novel concept I must be a double genius.
Also someone explain to me how the MH program furthers the image of normal hunters through their "ethics" when they kill alot of elk on a four wheeler in a hay field. Now if a non-hunter saw that what sort of opinion would they instantly form about hunters when they see guys shooting them in a hay field?
I also love how it's for "damage control" yet the MH area 3911 goes way past the hay fields and up into the sage brush. Also if there is so many elk problems in the Colockum how come they don't give out any cow permits for the Colockum? Yet the MH guys can shoot two cows a year. It's all BS and yes there is an agenda. If it really is to control damage then why let the MH guys who can walk up in the hills and chase elk like the rest of us shoot the elk in the hay fields. Let the disabled guys do that. Let the guys who can't walk etc go into the hay fields and shoot a cow. If the MH guys are so masterfull then they should easily be able to get one in the high country.
If the MH really is for conservation and damage control then why don't they build a fence. Seems to me that the MH are just a band-aid.
Post by: KillzElk on April 21, 2009, 10:26:47 PM
Individuals who successfully complete the Master Hunter program receive a patch as recognition of their accomplishments. A personalized Master Hunter card with the person's name Dick Tracy, Master Hunter number 007, issue date, and renewal date will also be provided. Master Hunters are eligible to participate in special hunts aimed at reducing property damage and/or public safety problems posed by wildlife. Made up story. Special hunt opportunities and rules change & vary from year to year for more $$$ , and may include dog, cat,goose,fish,beaver,lion,zebra,bigfoot, elk, deer and turkey hunts in designated areas throughout Washington your back yard.
The Master Hunter program is an advanced hunter education program designed to help hunters increase their knowledge of the sport, and particularly help them understand the concerns of private landowners.
We believe that it will have a significant effect on improving hunter/ landowner relations and that, over time, it will make a major contribution to improving the public image of the hunter. In addition, graduates will have achieved a qualification that they can be proud of and which we hope will open up new hunting opportunities to them.
The program is open to all hunters, but hunters who plan to hunt in the hunts listed below must complete the program before they hunt. In these areas, the Department is working with private landowners to provide hunting access for Master Hunters on lands that are otherwise closed to the public but make a special VIP card for ALL ACCESS. On anybodies private land they want .. BULLSH.T These hunts are not necessarily "easy" hunts Now Killing a animal is hard GUN BULLET :mgun: DEAD , but they are hunts where ethical hunter behavior is critical to their continuance. It is possible that in future years, the program will be expanded to cover other hunts in sensitive areas. These are wild animals that have been hunted for many years... It just makes me LOL to see that this subject has raised some att...
Enough said Special Ed and his VIP ALL ACCESS Tag are coming over we have a serious Kill that needs to be done by a Master Hunter :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
Post by: rasbo on April 22, 2009, 05:59:02 AM
Post by: KillBilly on April 22, 2009, 06:16:57 AM
What I hear going on here appears to be based on Jealousy..... Hunting has no place for jealousy, it is not part of the activity. You are always going to find someone that you think has it easier than you.
I am a Master Hunter and have been one since they started the program.
You need to quit whining and become one also. Then tell us about the Special hunts you get and the trophys you kill and how you get to shoot from a quad in a field...
You make me Ill... ignorance must actually be BLISS.
Post by: billythekidrock on April 22, 2009, 06:17:39 AM
Post by: rasbo on April 22, 2009, 06:23:08 AM
Just wait until we make it MH only in the Colockum and MH only for bear hunting in August.Im thinking thats the direction its headed,sad state of affairs..pitting hunter against hunter
Post by: KillBilly on April 22, 2009, 06:56:11 AM
Post by: rasbo on April 22, 2009, 07:10:29 AM
Razbo, it won't be hunter against hunter if all hunters are MH.okay so 277,00 hunters become master hunters..well then we will need ,elite master hunters,then cream of the crop elite master hunter hunters.where does it end..I guess Im just tired of labels,and and carrots
Post by: luvtohnt on April 22, 2009, 07:38:39 AM
hey luvtohnt, i bet the reason you want to know what hunt that I was talking about is because you want to put in for it. like i said, if all MH feel like they deserve the rights the fish and game give them, then go ahead and proudly put in for you tags. Like all of us that are against it are saying, don't be a part of something and definitely don't argue with it when you don't know the in's and out's of each and every aspect of what the program is doing. DO SOME ACTUAL RESEARCH AND YOU WILL BE AMAZED AT WHAT YOU WILL FIND. I will admit that i don't know what all good this program brings, but the reason i don't is because of all of the negative. I don't feel that giving the fish and game that much recognition is what i want to do. Like i said before, in a situation like this, if feel that the old saying, "take the good with the bad" should not apply but the WDFW should not enact bad to get a little good. :bash:
First of all I could care less about all the special hunts. I joined and completed this program because it will look good on my resume since I am going into wildlife biology. Secondly I know all the in's and out's, but they change the hunts availale to MH, and since I don't keep up on which hunts are out there I was just curious. Also I have a few friends who live out in the colockum and they will call me when the elk are on their place, and if done properly you simply haze them off the property and take a couple shots in their direction and they won't come back. I have done it once with great results and no loss to the herd. I very well could have filled my tag in January on his place but chose not to, which I admit was hard because I haven't killed an elk in a few years. I don't like the idea of killing animals out of a herd that is already hurting population wise.
Colockum,
Most of that money is given to farmers on the west side of the valley where there is already a fence. The fence doesn't do very well when there are gaps and easy ways around it. You have to remember this is a delicate balance as the elk need to be on their winter range but you have to lower their impact at the same time. One of my friends has to rebuild his water takeout on Cooke creek every year because the elk do SO much damage to it. We fenced it out last spring and guess what the elk tore the *censored* out of the fence so again rebuild and repair. I costs him allot of money every year, and the game department just tells him o-well. The ethics part is hard because so many abuse this, when shooting in a damage control area you are supposed to position yourself so that when and if you get a shot the animals will vacate the property towards state owned property not just onto the neighbors Field. Most people do not do this. I think the program still needs some tweaking but we need all of the none MH on our side to help develope the program into something we can all be proud of!
Brandon
Post by: Little Dave on April 22, 2009, 09:15:23 AM
The WDFW pays out $20,000 a year to the hay farmers in Kittitas County for "elk damages" yet I see cattle wintering in the hay fields. How do elk hurt the hay yet the cattle do not. No one has yet to explain this to me.
If the MH really is for conservation and damage control then why don't they build a fence. Seems to me that the MH are just a band-aid.
The fence presently costs about $20 per linear foot to install. Most of this is labor cost. Ironically, the state sometimes uses organized volunteers (including master hunters) to reduce expenses.
Of course, the farmer/rancher may be able to do this on his own dime if he can afford the expense. If a crop is raised at some expense and the cost is recovered in part by having stock grazing on it, I can see how wildlife using the crop is viewed as a loss. However, if appropriate measures are not taken to protect the asset, it is my opinion that the loss is due to negligence and it is not the fault of the state.
Post by: boneaddict on April 22, 2009, 09:30:16 AM
Quote
What I hear going on here appears to be based on Jealousy.....You're not listening very well then, especially if you think that's what is motivating me in what I had to say.
Post by: buck470 on April 22, 2009, 09:38:54 AM
Am I missing anything??
Kinda like a Soap Opera, "Who's on the chopping block today"
Post by: huntnphool on April 22, 2009, 09:44:09 AM
Post by: KillBilly on April 22, 2009, 09:47:47 AM
QuoteWhat I hear going on here appears to be based on Jealousy.....You're not listening very well then, especially if you think that's what is motivating me in what I had to say.
It was not directed at you Bone....
Post by: boneaddict on April 22, 2009, 10:12:22 AM
Post by: KillBilly on April 22, 2009, 10:23:28 AM
This subject seems to be getting allot of attention, now all someone needs to do is post all the opportunity's.I want to see this years reg opportunity's posted then the real debate will follow.Post the unit the time allowed, time of year and total days the
M H get verse the rest of the 277,000 hunters paying the bills here.B Barnes keeping the
public lands public and still not asking for any extra opportunity's :)
P.S. we need to hear the stories
You got a lot of mouth B.Barnes, why don't you compile a list of bills that you pay that the rest of us don't. All I see is that you might have to pay a methane gas tax for all the hot wind you spew so freely. You are the one making claims about what we MHs get...show us the list if you can and then explain why you don't get them or why you don't qualify to be an MH..
Post by: jackelope on April 22, 2009, 10:47:06 AM
:bash:
Post by: KillBilly on April 22, 2009, 10:58:05 AM
Good honest discussion is welcome always... uneducated bashing is just uncalled for
Post by: Lockout on April 22, 2009, 11:30:19 AM
I also appreciate the Private message you sent to me , I would love to post it but there are some words that would not be appropriate. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( :bash: :bash: :bash:
Or, everyone who is complaining about this get off their dead butts, do the service , pass the test and we'll all be Master Hunters. If you won't or can't do it then you have nothing to complain about. You have equal opportunity to take and pass the course, I think equal opportunity is what you are wanting isn't it.
What I hear going on here appears to be based on Jealousy..... Hunting has no place for jealousy, it is not part of the activity. You are always going to find someone that you think has it easier than you.
I am a Master Hunter and have been one since they started the program.
You need to quit whining and become one also. Then tell us about the Special hunts you get and the trophys you kill and how you get to shoot from a quad in a field...
You make me Ill... ignorance must actually be BLISS.
I see there are some for this ridicules Master Hunter program and those of us that think it is a Crock of BS.. We all can take a test and pay are fee and pass.. As you all see some like KillBilly don't want to lose his special VIP card for ALL ACCESS privilege.
QUOTE KILLBILLY
Or, everyone who is complaining about this get off their dead butts, do the service , pass the test and we'll all be Master Hunters. If you won't or can't do it then you have nothing to complain about. You have equal opportunity to take and pass the course, I think equal opportunity is what you are wanting isn't it.
What I hear going on here appears to be based on Jealousy..... Hunting has no place for jealousy, it is not part of the activity also a PRIVILEGE KILLBILLY figure it out fella. You are always going to find someone that you think has it easier than you.Guess that would be you???
I am a Master Hunter and have been one since they started the program.
You need to quit whining and become one also. Then tell us about the Special hunts you get and the trophy's you kill and how you get to shoot from a quad in a field... This is my favorite statement this is a true hunter here ..
You make me Ill... ignorance must actually be BLISS.
People like this don't deserve to have this type of POWER he thinks he might have . Like I have said before its all about ME ME ME .. What about others that need to ride a quad into a place that cant hike or walk very well or have a disability .. If you are a Master Hunter get off your lazy butt and do some hiking give up your status you think is so cool and give it to someone that needs it, and hunt the animals like they have been hunted from years when we were not on this earth ..
Looks to me a these Master Hunters THINK they are in a special sniper club.. Shoot off there Orv drive in, Next they will give them all pagers to contact them about all the nuisance elk on property like the SWAT team.. :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
Post by: jackelope on April 22, 2009, 11:43:03 AM
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Thanks for locking me out
hey lockout/killzelk...nobody locked you out. you changed your email address which requires account reactivation. make sure of the facts before you accuse people of things.
Post by: agchawk on April 22, 2009, 11:43:31 AM
There are no discussion points, nothing of value added to the conversation, and sounds more like an angry child on the playground than someone who cares about a topic and is willing to discuss same.
Of course, it's not the only post in this thread that falls into the same catergory...just a great example IMO.
Post by: jackelope on April 22, 2009, 11:45:22 AM
Quote
What about others that need to ride a quad into a place that cant hike or walk very well or have a disability ..
on page 24-25 of the regs is a huge list of disabled hunter deer special permits.
again...check the facts.
Post by: boneaddict on April 22, 2009, 11:53:04 AM
Post by: KillBilly on April 22, 2009, 12:37:49 PM
Master Hunter Program
The Master Hunter program is designed to promote responsible hunting. In addition to training, the program emphasizes safe, lawful and ethical hunting priorities while upholding the highest standards. The program offers an opportunity for conscientious, committed hunters who care about the future of hunting to assume a leadership role among their peers. Through their knowledge and conduct in the field, Master Hunters play a key role in improving relationships with landowners, thus ensuring continued hunter access to private lands.
Benefits
Individuals who successfully complete the Master Hunter program receive a patch as recognition of their accomplishments. A personalized Master Hunter card with the person's name, Master Hunter number, issue date, and renewal date will also be provided. Master Hunters are eligible to participate in special hunts aimed at reducing property damage and/or public safety problems posed by wildlife. Special hunt opportunities vary from year to year, and may include elk, deer and turkey hunts in designated areas throughout Washington.
Training and certification
Those enrolling in the Master Hunter program should be motivated by a genuine desire to learn and model a high level of hunting knowledge and skill. Training is offered through independent study, offering maximum flexibility for candidates.
To become a certified Master Hunter, each applicant is required to:
• Demonstrate proficiency with a bow, handgun, muzzleloader, rifle or shotgun.
• Provide at least 20 hours of volunteer service on a project benefiting state wildlife resources.
• Attend Crime Observation and Reporting Training (CORT).
• Receive a score of at least 80 percent on a written examination, based on provided independent
studymaterials.
• Submit to a law enforcement background check.
• Sign an agreement to abide by the Master Hunter code of ethics.
Post by: KillBilly on April 22, 2009, 12:42:26 PM
QuoteWhat about others that need to ride a quad into a place that cant hike or walk very well or have a disability ..
on page 24-25 of the regs is a huge list of disabled hunter deer special permits.
again...check the facts.
Jackelope is right.. there are many options for Disabled hunters. I happen to be one of them also. There are road programs that get DH behind locked gates on a draw system. There is the companion card that allows a DH to take another hunter along and even shoot for him. There is the crossbow option, even allwances for hunting from your vehicle with in certain guidelines. By the way, i did not have to pass a test to get disabled and they didn't give me a patch :chuckle:
Post by: KillBilly on April 22, 2009, 12:44:54 PM
Post by: KillzElk on April 22, 2009, 01:05:12 PM
KillBilly I was trying to quote what you had said .. Sorry if you felt I had changed your words....
This is what I would like to see for the Master Hunter program go for, the picture says it all.. Happiness.... :)
Link:
http://www.hunter-ed.com/wa/wa_fish_wildlife.htm
Other Master Hunter Links & info..
http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/masterhunter/orientation.html
Thank You so much.....
Thanks for deleting my post two times, you may not want to read it but others might.. I don't call you out on all your spelling typos & delete post that I don't like just goes to show you give someone alittle power, You are showing your true colors ...
I also appreciate the Private message you sent to me , I would love to post it but there are some words that would not be appropriate. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( :bash: :bash: :bash:
Or, everyone who is complaining about this get off their dead butts, do the service , pass the test and we'll all be Master Hunters. If you won't or can't do it then you have nothing to complain about. You have equal opportunity to take and pass the course, I think equal opportunity is what you are wanting isn't it.
What I hear going on here appears to be based on Jealousy..... Hunting has no place for jealousy, it is not part of the activity. You are always going to find someone that you think has it easier than you.
I am a Master Hunter and have been one since they started the program.
You need to quit whining and become one also. Then tell us about the Special hunts you get and the trophys you kill and how you get to shoot from a quad in a field...
You make me Ill... ignorance must actually be BLISS.
I see there are some for this ridicules Master Hunter program and those of us that think it is a Crock of BS.. We all can take a test and pay are fee and pass.. As you all see some like KillBilly don't want to lose his special VIP card for ALL ACCESS privilege.
QUOTE KILLBILLY
Or, everyone who is complaining about this get off their dead butts, do the service , pass the test and we'll all be Master Hunters. If you won't or can't do it then you have nothing to complain about. You have equal opportunity to take and pass the course, I think equal opportunity is what you are wanting isn't it.
What I hear going on here appears to be based on Jealousy..... Hunting has no place for jealousy, it is not part of the activity also a PRIVILEGE KILLBILLY figure it out fella. You are always going to find someone that you think has it easier than you.Guess that would be you???
I am a Master Hunter and have been one since they started the program.
You need to quit whining and become one also. Then tell us about the Special hunts you get and the trophy's you kill and how you get to shoot from a quad in a field... This is my favorite statement this is a true hunter here ..
You make me Ill... ignorance must actually be BLISS.
People like this don't deserve to have this type of POWER he thinks he might have . Like I have said before its all about ME ME ME .. What about others that need to ride a quad into a place that cant hike or walk very well or have a disability .. If you are a Master Hunter get off your lazy butt and do some hiking give up your status you think is so cool and give it to someone that needs it, and hunt the animals like they have been hunted from years when we were not on this earth ..
Looks to me a these Master Hunters THINK they are in a special sniper club.. Shoot off there Orv drive in, Next they will give them all pagers to contact them about all the nuisance elk on property like the SWAT team.. :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
Post by: KillBilly on April 22, 2009, 01:18:02 PM
Post by: bearhunter59 on April 22, 2009, 02:57:56 PM
As for some of the suggestions about the disabled folks and young juvenile hunters, these are good suggestions and I would again recommend you take them to the Master Hunter Advisory Group.
But, as I said in my earlier post, if you didn't register to get into the program this year, you will have to wait at least two years before they open it up again for new applicants. The reason for this is because the WDFW enforcement and wildlife biologist are not utilizing the Master Hunters to the extent they could, and if they aren't using us, then we don't need to get anymore people in the program.
As for the 3911 unit damage hunts, if you checkout the regs this year and the area, you will find they have changed things. #1 the unit boundary has changed significantly from the previous years and has been reduced greatly, and #2 they have changed the way the 2nd tag can be used so it reduces the amount of time the MHs have to use that particular tag.
#3 the 3911 hunt is open only to eastside tag holders. Just because I am a master hunter, doesn't mean I get to hunt that unit either. I am a westside tag holder, and am not changing just to get in on the 3911 hunt. So, with that in mind, let's stop and figure this out. How many MH are we actually talking about getting to hunt in that unit? Since there are only @1800 MH in the program, and only about 300 of those are actually active Master Hunters, meaning they have a MH card and actually buy a hunting license every year and actively participate in the program, how many does that leave that are actual eastside tag holders and travel to that unit to participate in that hunt. My guess it we are talking about a very small number that actually bother hunting that area. With all the negative publicity that hunt has got over the last couple of years, I know of many master hunters that actually stay away from that hunt, just for that reason. And I'd be willing to bet there are more non-master hunter bowhunters, MLers and rifle hunters that hunt that area, claiming to be master hunters, than actual master hunters. What's that....those non-master hunters wouldn't do that? Yah, right. I personally have caught five different hunters out there in the last year claiming to be master hunters, who in fact were not. See, that's the other side of the coin, non-master hunters claiming to be master hunters, when they are not. It happens alot more than you think. That's ok, because in the next year the licenses will have the Master Hunter number on them, so the officer will no right away if you are in fact a Master Hunter, or a Master Hunter wannabe..
Please understand, the Master Hunter program does not set any of these hunts in the regulations. That is done entirely by the wildlife side of the house, not the enforcement side of the house. The Master Hunter program is under Enforcement, not Wildlife. Don't ask me why; I don't know and not sure it makes much sense that way either.
Just food for thought... :IBCOOL:
Post by: furbearer365 on April 22, 2009, 03:02:22 PM
That is a quote from killbilly and is completely insane in my book. What kind of advice is that. I know this is a little extreme but just wanting to make a point. Do you have an opinion about the KKK or the Nazi party. I would hope to god that you are not a part of them but I guarantee you have an opinion about it. You make it sound like the people who are not a part of the MH program are not smart enough or have not looked into what it takes to join. Have you thought about the notion that maybe they did as much or more research about it than you did and decided it simply was for them or maybe didn't believe that the program would work wholeheartedly. I'm convinced that the ones that are not a member are more ethical and caring about the animals they hunt because like RyanD and i have both said, why should we chase them for 6 months out of the year.
Post by: Coasthunterjay on April 22, 2009, 03:14:55 PM
You make it sound like the people who are not a part of the MH program are not smart enough or have not looked into what it takes to join.THIS IS COMPLETELY UNBIASED BECAUSE IM NOT A MASTER HUNTER.....
maybe thats not what killbilly is saying.......
Maybe he is saying that he Has taken advantage of the program, and is saying that if YOU take advantage of it, then you to can enjoy the fruits of being a MH.....
If not then dont complain about those who put in the work to do so.......
Honestly just sound like a bunch of whinners......SOMEBODY CALL THE WHAMBULANCE........LOL......
Post by: jackelope on April 22, 2009, 03:16:44 PM
Post by: RyanD on April 22, 2009, 03:22:47 PM
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I'm just curious, where is it us Master Hunters get to ride quads into places others must walk into? I've never noticed that in any of the "special" hunts we get. Where is that stated? Not that I intend to ride my quad in any of those locations. I'll walk in like everyone else has too.
Now I know for a fact in one MH hunt in Aug and Dec Weyco gives the MH combos to the gates to drive in and hunt? The rest of the year everyone else is required to follow the non motorized access rule. I know this is not quads, but would you walk or drive? Just curious.
Post by: bearhunter59 on April 22, 2009, 03:23:09 PM
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That is a quote from killbilly and is completely insane in my book. What kind of advice is that. I know this is a little extreme but just wanting to make a point. Do you have an opinion about the KKK or the Nazi party. I would hope to god that you are not a part of them but I guarantee you have an opinion about it. You make it sound like the people who are not a part of the MH program are not smart enough or have not looked into what it takes to join. Have you thought about the notion that maybe they did as much or more research about it than you did and decided it simply was for them or maybe didn't believe that the program would work wholeheartedly. I'm convinced that the ones that are not a member are more ethical and caring about the animals they hunt because like RyanD and i have both said, why should we chase them for 6 months out of the year.
From some of the comments made by some of the non-MHs, it is obvious they haven't researched the program, and really don't have their facts straight. Now, some of you may have, but my impression from the non-MH posts, is a majority of them have not done the research.
And I politely disagree with your comment that the non-MHs are more ethical and caring about the animals they hunt, than the Master Hunters. Because, quite frankly, if that was the case, then the WDFW wouldn't have had to come up with a program like this to appease the landowners, and would have been able to use just any joe-smoe hunter. But, because so many hunters have proven to be unethical, and unlawful, the WDFW had to come up with a program to address the landowner elk problems, and prove the hunters they are using for those hunts are a set above the rest.
The Master Hunter program is not about extra hunts, and the WDFW strongly urges anyone thinking of getting into the program for that reason, to NOT apply. They can't stop you; but they very strongly discourage it. That's about all they legally can do. The motto for the program on the new patches, "Giving Back", states what the new direction and emphasis on the program is about.
Someone, mentioned why doesn't the WDFW build fences to keep the animals out of the properties. They actually have a fence, and yes there are gaps. Anthony Navack, the elk damage specialist for that area, puts together many, many work parties every year to build more fence and repair existing fence. My question to you non-master hunter guys is how many of you have actually volunteered on any of these fence projects, or any WDFW project.
So, why don't you "Give Back", and be part of the solution, instead of part of the problem?
Post by: huntnphool on April 22, 2009, 03:29:59 PM
Post by: luvtohnt on April 22, 2009, 03:31:34 PM
Now I know for a fact in one MH hunt in Aug and Dec Weyco gives the MH combos to the gates to drive in and hunt? The rest of the year everyone else is required to follow the non motorized access rule. I know this is not quads, but would you walk or drive? Just curious.
Personally I would walk. Especially if I am able to hunt during a season when no one else is out. You see more, hear more, and do less damage to the property if you are on foot. But that is just me.
Brandon
Post by: bearhunter59 on April 22, 2009, 03:33:54 PM
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Now I know for a fact in one MH hunt in Aug and Dec Weyco gives the MH combos to the gates to drive in and hunt? The rest of the year everyone else is required to follow the non motorized access rule. I know this is not quads, but would you walk or drive? Just curious.
Again, I ask what unit/hunt is that? And from what you just stated, it sounds like your beef should be with the timber company, and not the Master Hunters or the WDFW. Private Property owners can open or close their gates to anyone they want, and restrict who goes in, and how they are allowed in there. Bitch to Weyerheuser!
And the more I think about it, yes, I would probably ride into someplace if I was allowed, versus walking in. Why? Because there have been many times I have walked in miles behind closed gates, only to have some yahoo come driving in from the other side, where they have torn down the gate. So, if some private property owner wants to allow me to drive in, solely because he beleives that I as a Master Hunter, am held to a higher standard than the average hunter, then by all means I will probably drive. So, if your jealous of my special priviledge granted by the private property owner, take it up with them.
Post by: buck470 on April 22, 2009, 03:38:41 PM
It's been awhile since i looked at those, but I believe that is what they are calling a "hunt master" hunt, If you put in for it and get drawn, you can't go hunt unless your called, by the hunt master, IF your called, no gaurantee your phone is going to ring.
And My assumption is that it would be to go shoot/hunt a nusiance moose that other means have not worked to resolve the problems said Moose is causing.
Form the Phamplet (I went back and looked)
MH -This is a nuisance hunt administered by a WDFW designated hunt master. Only master hunters may apply. These hunts will not affect accumulated points; and any weapon may
be used. Successful applicants will be contacted on an as-needed basis to help with specific sites of nuisance moose activity in designated areas. Not all successful applicants will be
contacted in any given year.
Post by: RyanD on April 22, 2009, 03:42:26 PM
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I'll walk in like everyone else has too.
???????
Post by: huntnphool on April 22, 2009, 03:45:44 PM
Post by: buck470 on April 22, 2009, 03:55:21 PM
Carrot at the end of a stick??? only my guess (a Moose is a big dam carrot!)
1200 Master hunters, 20 hours volunteer work to get in, an average of 8 hours a year to keep your status.
1200x8= 9600 volunteer hours a year @ say 10 bucks an hour (kinda low) $96,000.00
Now with all the budget cuts, would you want to see that increased if you were a WDFW manager trying to keep your fences repaired, add new fences, clean up areas?
Those are the things I did to get my 20 hours.
Post by: luvtohnt on April 22, 2009, 04:01:53 PM
Nuisance???? Really???? Give me a break!!! There may be 1 or 2 moose out there that are a nuisance to farms but 20? Again give me a break!!! I will be willing to bet anyone that out of those 20 tags not one cow is removed. Are you telling me that it will be only bulls that are creating the nuisance, because more than likely it will be only bulls tagged.
The idea that they reduced the number of tags for permit applicants just to accommodate the"Master Hunters" really pisses me off, >:( and I've already drawn my tag and can't apply again. :bdid:
All the hunts designated for MH are for nuisance animals. Again as I stated before the 20 tags are simply so they can make a list of 20 people who would be willing to spend the time and money to drive over to the Spokane area, and cull a moose that is causing extensive damage. Now if no property owners call in and claim damages then no one on the list will be called. I don't know how many complaints are made in that area on a yearly basis, apparently there are allot or a MH application would not be justifiable. I am willing to bet that less than 2 moose are culled using this hunt, and I would also be willing to bet that they will be cows and not bulls.
Area Species 2008 Tags 2009 Tags
8001 Kettle Range Any Moose 2 3
8002 Selkirk Mtns. A Any Moose 25 22
8003 Mt. Spokane A Any Moose 12 12
8004 Mt. Spokane B Antlerless Only 14 14
8005 Mt. Spokane Youth Onlya Antlerless Only 10 10
8006 49 Degrees North A Any Moose 26 22
8007 49 Degrees North Bb Antlerless Only 5 3
8008 49 Degrees North Cc Antlerless Only 2 2
8009 49 Degrees North Youth Onlya Antlerless Only 2 2
8010 Three Forks Any Moose 8 6
8011 Hangman A Any Moose 7 7
8012 Hangman B Antlerless Only 7 7
8013 Huckleberry Range Any Moose 8 6
8014 Huckleberry Range Bc Antlerless Only new 2
128 118
There are the stats not including the MH hunt. They may have reduced a few more in anticipation of a few moose being taken on nuisance hunts. The tags will increase again as they see how many moose will need to be taken in depredation. They also added a 65 and older hunt with two of those tags. I think that was good.
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I respect everyones opinion and don't burn crosses. I'm interested in the thought process and attempted justification for handing out tags to MH, regardless if its for a nuisance animal or not, rather than creating a list from those that have been applying for 10+ years and giving them the opportunity. Then on top of that the fact that as a MH you will not forfeit your points or OIL status, to me that is just BS.
I scratch your back you scratch mine. It's as simple as that. I wish I had some stats on how often a Hunt Master has to call a MH to come and do a nuisance hunt. I will try to find out.
Brandon
Post by: KillBilly on April 22, 2009, 04:04:54 PM
I have spoken what I feel about the program and I did not join the site to fight over the internet becuase we all have the same passion and hobbies but I do feel I need to respond to this:QuoteI'm just curious, where is it us Master Hunters get to ride quads into places others must walk into? I've never noticed that in any of the "special" hunts we get. Where is that stated? Not that I intend to ride my quad in any of those locations. I'll walk in like everyone else has too.Now I know for a fact in one MH hunt in Aug and Dec Weyco gives the MH combos to the gates to drive in and hunt? The rest of the year everyone else is required to follow the non motorized access rule. I know this is not quads, but would you walk or drive? Just curious.
Be fair, in the winston unit, late elk. non MH hunting, if you harvest an animal behind one of their locked gates, you can call in and get the combo over the phone and drive in to get your animal... NO MH required so you get the same
Post by: bearhunter59 on April 22, 2009, 04:05:34 PM
The 3911 hunt is about the only hunt that a Master Hunter doesn't have to apply for and get drawn for. The majority of the MH hunts are Hunt Master hunts, which mean you must apply for it and get drawn. Then you must wait until the Hunt Master calls you. (Just becuase there may be 10 or 15 permits drawn, does not mean that each and everyone of those will get a call and a shot at an animal.) In most cases, you will then be escorted to the hunt location by the Hunt Master, (and maybe even the property owner), and told by the Hunt Master not only which animal to shoot, but from what location/direction you must shoot the animal, to cause the rest of the animals to depart the area in the right direction. Most of these hunts will take place in locations that are clearly visible to the public, and where houses and people may be near by. The WDFW and land owners want to make sure the individual they are using for this purpose is of a higher caliber and standing than the average joe smoe hunter. Now many of you may feel that you are of the higher caliber and ethical standing than others, including some of the Master Hunters, but you have not proven it, like the Master Hunters that have completed all the requirements to get into the program.
Post by: huntnphool on April 22, 2009, 04:07:42 PM
Are you trying to tell me that its compensation for labor hours now?
Post by: RyanD on April 22, 2009, 04:11:50 PM
Quote
Be fair, in the winston unit, late elk. non MH hunting, if you harvest an animal behind one of their locked gates, you can call in and get the combo over the phone and drive in to get your animal... NO MH required so you get the same
There is a difference in driving in miles to hunt and biking in miles to hunt.
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Now many of you may feel that you are of the higher caliber and ethical standing than others, including some of the Master Hunters, but you have not proven it, like the Master Hunters that have completed all the requirements to get into the program.
Are you telling me since you completed all of the requirements to get into the program that makes you of higher caliber and have higher ethics than others????
Post by: goiamo on April 22, 2009, 04:14:05 PM
I have yet to see the MH on this site justify the moose tag situation, I really would like to hear your thoughts on this guys.
Some folks would not be satisfied by a revelation from God as the basis to support a special hunt. After all, if God wants the animals dead, use a bolt of lightning.
I did not plan, promote, or advocate for the Master Hunter draw tags for Moose in Spokane County. The reason for putting this in the MH lap is the private property, rural residential areas, and proximity to (a historically hostile) Turnbull Wildlife Refuge nature of the hunting areas. As I have mentioned previously, WDFW had as many as 5 moose a day to coax, haze, or trap/transfer out of Spokane residential areas this winter. (Come talk to our local enforcement officers to see if 20 would have been enough tags in this record breaking snowy winter!) That is why the hunt starts in December and continues through the heavy snow months here in Spokane.
This is not a "fair chase" hunt. It is intended to put city moms and dads at ease that their children can go outside at recess (Yes, in Spokane we have school and recess even with 3-4 feet of snow. And moose!) or walk home without worrying their child will be stomped by an agitated moose. There is an exemption from the OIL rule because the hunter does not choose when or where the "hunt" will occur, nor which animal to take, in most circumstances. I imagine you would not want to squander your OIL on a yearling cow that happens to return to the same spot where the cow was hit by a car, no matter how far it is trapped and transferred away.
If a moose is considered enough of a threat, the hunt master will call a tag recipient and direct that individual when and where to take the animal. This is to save the WDFW money on complaints and precious employee time and replace it with a tag purchasing member of the public. You can bet the WDFW is going to try a lot of other options before calling a MH to shoot a "trophy" bull moose. Most likely, some of the tag purchasers will never get a call.
Interestingly enough, by the time this hunt was firmly placed in the regulations, there was not much time to apply to be a MH. The good MHs, in my opinion, did not apply to get in on special hunts. They apply to take a leading role in working to benefit WDFW as a wildlife management tool. This include habitat enhancement, scientific research, and control of nuisance animals. I believe that a moose on my porch, or in my basement, or just over the fence from the neighborhood elementary school, would be a nuisance.
Thus is my understanding of the justification. Whether that is satisfactory to you is out of my control.
--Richard
Post by: bearhunter59 on April 22, 2009, 04:21:39 PM
Quote
Are you telling me since you completed all of the requirements to get into the program that makes you of higher caliber and have higher ethics than others?
I'm saying I have proven that I am...you haven't. If you feel you are, then enroll in the program and prove it... :IBCOOL: :'(
Post by: huntnphool on April 22, 2009, 04:22:32 PM
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The majority of the MH hunts are Hunt Master hunts, which mean you must apply for it and get drawn.
You say this as if its a big deal to draw, aren't you only applying against other MH's?
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not only which animal to shoot, but from what location/direction you must shoot the animal, to cause the rest of the animals to depart the area in the right direction.
Now that's one of the funniest things I've heard on here yet. Are you honestly trying to tell me that the moose realize the difference between a gun being fired in the air or a gun being fired directly at one of the ones in the group. If you or the land owner simply shoot the gun over their heads they are going to stand there until they realize one of their own has been hit? LMAO, that's a good one.
Quote
Now many of you may feel that you are of the higher caliber and ethical standing than others, including some of the Master Hunters, but you have not proven it, like the Master Hunters that have completed all the requirements to get into the program.
Because I haven't read a book and taken a test? If you truly believe your MH's to be "higher caliber" than myself and so many others on this site and around the state simply because of some "program" then you truly are an ignorant fool.
Post by: Ray on April 22, 2009, 04:23:42 PM
Post by: rasbo on April 22, 2009, 04:29:35 PM
Oh wow. There's only one program and way to prove your worth and ethics I guess. Way to go. Alienate people. Well done.thanks Ray I was just thinking that.bearhunter! are you trying to hurt the image of the master hunting program :dunno:
Post by: buck470 on April 22, 2009, 04:34:15 PM
Well since you are trying to justify it by numbers how about adding the number of moose applicants each year for 10+ years and multiply that times the amount they charge for the application....................................seems to me its a whole lot more than your $96,000.00.
Are you trying to tell me that its compensation for labor hours now?
Well look at it from a Managers stand point, your still gonna collect on the Applications, now you've thrown out this huge carrot, " look master hunters get 10 tag's ANY Moose"
So joe schmoe runs out pay's 20 bucks for his materials, get's his 20 hours in completes the coarse and apply's for the hunt, only to find out he may never get a call.
Now they have accomplished a few things:
They Educated this guy a little more (hopefully it sticks)(probally the most important thing)
Gotten 20 hours of labor out of him.
He still paid his application fee.
Has he gotten a moose yet?
I'm just thinking out loud here, maybe thats not how they are looking at it.
Post by: jackelope on April 22, 2009, 04:36:30 PM
Quote
Quote
The majority of the MH hunts are Hunt Master hunts, which mean you must apply for it and get drawn.
You say this as if its a big deal to draw, aren't you only applying against other MH's?
i think he's saying that it's a different method of deciding who gets to hunt.
Post by: huntnphool on April 22, 2009, 04:43:00 PM
Post by: Bob33 on April 22, 2009, 04:45:34 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 22, 2009, 04:48:21 PM
I hear what your saying buck470 I just think it very unfair to those that have been trying to get a moose tag for years, most of which will never draw. There are thousands of applicants out there that would love to get that call and be okay with using their OIL points for the chance. :twocents:
do you really think there's some guy out there with 8-10 moose points who's interested in burning his points to go kill a downtown nuisance moose out of somebody's back yard?
i realize i'm exxagerating the scenario a bit, but that is not too far off.
Post by: huntnphool on April 22, 2009, 04:49:40 PM
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The Hunt Master will typically contact a tag holder only when there is a need to remove a nuisance animal, which may be never during the season.
By Goiamo's own admission it doesnt sound as though filling the tags is going to be a problem.
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WDFW had as many as 5 moose a day to coax, haze, or trap/transfer out of Spokane residential areas this winter. (Come talk to our local enforcement officers to see if 20 would have been enough tags in this record breaking snowy winter!)
Post by: jackelope on April 22, 2009, 04:51:40 PM
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Most likely, some of the tag purchasers will never get a call.
Post by: huntnphool on April 22, 2009, 04:52:22 PM
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do you really think there's some guy out there with 8-10 moose points who's interested in burning his points to go kill a downtown nuisance moose out of somebody's back yard?
Actually I would be willing to bet there are hundreds that would love to, how many put in for cow tags every year knowing they would lose their points. We have loads of guys on this forum posting all the time that its all about meat.
Post by: buck470 on April 22, 2009, 04:53:14 PM
#1 No state program is with out it's flaws, but they are trying to fix this one, join put in your 2 cents, don't join, put in your 2 cents. Either way i believe these guy's want to hear your calm, educated idea's.
#2 As a "Master Hunter" i feel the name needs to change, to many people take the MASTER Part of the Name wrong, either there out hunting thinking there GOD because they are a MH, or someone that is a good steward and an exellent shot, who hasn't joined, get offened " oh those guy think there Master's because they took a test! HAH!"
Just bitching isn't going to get any thing Done, revert back to Item #1
Post by: huntnphool on April 22, 2009, 04:54:04 PM
keep reading phool..he said:QuoteMost likely, some of the tag purchasers will never get a call.
The point is Jackelope that 20 of them will, I couldn't care less about the ones that don't get the call.
Post by: huntnphool on April 22, 2009, 04:55:28 PM
Post by: Crunchy on April 22, 2009, 04:55:55 PM
Post by: huntnphool on April 22, 2009, 05:00:33 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 22, 2009, 05:14:18 PM
Post by: luvtohnt on April 22, 2009, 05:15:31 PM
Because I haven't read a book and taken a test? If you truly believe your MH's to be "higher caliber" than myself and so many others on this site and around the state simply because of some "program" then you truly are an ignorant fool.
I would never assume that. I just know from the WDFW's point of view myself, who has completed the MH training, is better suited in this situation then you. I don't think it is true, even though I have never met you ,you seem to be a very honest person. But how does the WDFW know that you are truley an honest person unless you have proven yourself?
Brandon
Post by: huntnphool on April 22, 2009, 05:17:29 PM
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But how does the WDFW know that you are truley an honest person unless you have proven yourself?
Point taken ;)
Post by: boneaddict on April 22, 2009, 05:18:46 PM
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It is intended to put city moms and dads at ease that their children can go outside at recess (Yes, in Spokane we have school and recess even with 3-4 feet of snow.
I would just assume that you master hunters, with the exception of only a few, weren't shooting moose on my daughters playground while she was at recess. Then again, I'm not a city mom or Dad. Considering that master hunter with higher standards that I often refer too couldn't hit the broadside of a barn and the last two animals he shot, he first shot off their noses before finally getting a killing shot out of 5-7 rounds....... yes thats why I laugh every time I hear the term. He also thinks he is the cats meow too. LOL
basically what I am saying as teh WDFW needs to deal with those animals on a professional basis. If they have to put them down then donate the meat to the food bank. WE DO NOT NEED hunters to be doing this. Very poor on their image I would believe even to logical people.
Post by: RyanD on April 22, 2009, 05:19:58 PM
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I hunted a unit where I was given the gate codes for WH property under the AHE program last year. I took my 15 year old nephew and we hiked in from the gate, leaviing our truck behind. We were able to kill an elk about 1.5 miles in. I was very happy to finally harvest something with my nephew (after many tries)and show him how to care for an animal once it was down. We then quartered and packed two quarters the miles and a half back to the truck to show him how much work was involved, knowing we could have just walked back to the truck and driven back and loaded it all. We then used the gate key and retrieved the rest of the elk (I'm not that stupid). I see no problem with any of that. We DIDNT just drive around looking for a herd of elk to shoot, stop the truck and let loose on them.
Congrats on the elk and showing a young hunter the proper ways!! That is great. I commend you and your efforts and you were justly rewarded, but I do believe you are the minority. I agree with what huntnphool says, I dont have a problem with drive in access for retrieval it is the driving around and hunting when the rest of us have non motorized access. Again no jealousy just don't understand it?
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Oh wow. There's only one program and way to prove your worth and ethics I guess. Way to go. Alienate people. Well done.
Absolutely
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I'm saying I have proven that I am...you haven't. If you feel you are, then enroll in the program and prove it...
I didn't realize that enrolling in the MH program automatically proves your ethics and makes you a higher caliber individual than myself.
Post by: huntnphool on April 22, 2009, 05:23:00 PM
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The MH will be put on the Hunt Masters list and he will work down the list if there a problem moose. Chances are no calls.
Come on guys, did you not read Goiamo's post? Let me put it out here again.
Quote
WDFW had as many as 5 moose a day to coax, haze, or trap/transfer out of Spokane residential areas this winter. (Come talk to our local enforcement officers to see if 20 would have been enough tags
By his own admition there were so many problem moose they were wondering if the 20 tags would be enough to handle the problems. Did I just read this wrong? :dunno:
Post by: billythekidrock on April 22, 2009, 05:24:53 PM
If you think about it the MH program could be the future of hunting in WA. Non members should look into it and not take all the internet banter as gospel. Ask questions of longtime members and get their perspective. A lot of the new members still have stars in their eyes while the longtime members are a bit calloused to the whole thing.
As for the MH hunts. Most are not hunts and should not be called that. They could be called a depredation harvest. A lot don't require hiking many miles or spike camps, but they do require a lot of local knowledge and interpersonal skills depending on the situation.
As for MH permit hunts. Many are through a Hunt Master and it is on an "as needed basis". You can get drawn and not get a call. This is more then likely the case with these moose permits. I would be willing to bet that Westside MH's will not be able to apply as they will want someone who can arrive at the drop of a hat.
As for points on damage hunts. MH's don't lose acquired points, but they also don't accrue points if drawn.
As a MH I would like them to loose all moose point for hunts.
A whole other thread could be started on the need for damage moose hunts, and while I am happy our population is growing, I can see the need for some depredation hunts.
Obviously those with personal agendas and special interest groups will have problems with the program and will never even atempt to see the other side, but I guess that leaves more room for the rest of us.
Post by: jackelope on April 22, 2009, 05:27:01 PM
Quote
Most likely, some of the tag purchasers will never get a call.
as in there won't be enough problem calls to get all the MH tag holders a call for a moose shooting.(i won't call it a hunt)
someone is reading wrong or writing wrong, one or the other. :dunno:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 22, 2009, 05:32:28 PM
Post by: KillBilly on April 22, 2009, 05:38:17 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on April 22, 2009, 05:40:44 PM
Well said Billy. Except a few of the MH hunts you will lose your points but those. Like the any elk or 3 point or better hunts where a hunter has the chance of taking a bull.
Yes, you will lose your points on the bull hunt and any elk hunt but most of those are not damage hunts. Just hunts in sensitive areas.
Post by: Slider on April 22, 2009, 09:17:16 PM
Post by: bbarnes on April 22, 2009, 10:07:59 PM
HOW ABOUT THE PUMAS PLAIN'S TAG AT MOUNT SAINT HELEN'S THIS IS FEDRAL LAND AND SHOULD BE ACCESSABLE TO ANYONE WHO PAY'S TAX .THIS IS NOTHING LESS THAN DESCRIMANATION TO THE 200 THOUSAND PLUS HUNTERS WHO BUY TAG'S IN THIS STATE. THERE NEED'S TO BE A CLASS ACTION LAW SUIT OVER THIS.B BARNES KEEPING PUBLIC LANDS PUBLIC FOR EVERYONE NOT JUST STATE EMPLOYEES WHO TAKE THE COURSE ONLINE AT WORK WHILE WE PAY THERE WAGE.
If the land owner want"s the wildlife off there property number 1 DON'T BUILD WHERE THE WILDLIFE LIVE'S.Number 2 give a person who ask permission a chance to hunt the property.Number 3 with the money the WDFW pays out to these land owners, it would be cheaper to pay for a fence and build it to keep the animals out.Finally number 4 if the program taught ethics, these M H wouldn't be hunting these animals at this time of year because it's not fair chase.Get a clue people hunting is now a Hobie not a way of life, or to say guess what i shot three elk and deer this year.
Let's talk some reality here for instance Weyco wants wildlife off there property.If they were forced by the lawmakers to create habitat and meadow areas for these animals,and quit spraying down the land with chemicals comparable to ajent orange they wouldn't need control hunts.The timber owners need to realize that resource is becoming worthless,times have changed. We in the construction trades are using different building methods and materials.What damage are the animals causing who was there first and who lost controll of the recourse in the first place.Where else in the U S A do they have this type of M H program anywhere? Does this program take into consideration people of lesser intelligence handicapped or hearing impaired.The WDFW mission statement says ensure effective use of current and future financial resources in order to meet the needs of the state's fish and wildlife resource for
the benefit of the public.How is the M H program benefiting the public because the public is all off us not 1280 out of 277,000 hunters in this state.Ive also heard rumors that the deer and elk in the state of washington,will be opening a casino soon because they are loosing there land just like the Indians. :stirthepot:Does this get closer to the point,do M H have a have more rights to Federal land than other tax payers.B Barnes keeping the public land public.
Billy the point I'm trying to make here is it discriminates against all of us sportsman.
Everyone isn't eligible for this program,and myself i promote equal opportunity.The WDFW will sell hunting licences to felons, but they cant be a part of this.WE all pay taxes but we all cant hunt the same places,to me this is turning into some private
hunting ranch.I don't think that hunters as a hole support this. :bdid:WE as outdoor
people should promote all of the ethics and rules,and educate each other.Its Hard to support this program, when the state tax payers own the animals.Myself and my group have spent thousands of dollars,giving out t shirts ,stickers putting floats in parades
and putting on tours for law makers to show the problems in the state, and to raise awareness of the problems were facing.B Barnes keeping the public lands public and the wildlife.
Your still not addressing the discrimination of the program against 277.000 hunters.Hunting Federal land that everyone should be able to hunt.Also isn't picking up the woods every outdoorsmans responsibility.This is nothing but a free labor pool for the state to have the M H Volunteering, while they the WDFW do nothing and get paid with benefits from our tax dollars.Last but not least when in the woods hunting you had better know the rules and regs or prepare to have the book thrown at you.
B Barnes keeping the public lands public.
M H you still have not addressed the issue of hunting on Federal land,the program was set up for damage issues and private property issues.It's turned into a reward program its unethical and theres no fair chase.I agree with furbearer 365 about the problem's at mt saint helen's it is overpursuit.The problems lie with The WDFW have they talked to the M H, about improving there image with the public.Let's talk a little biology i personally helped count the dead elk last year on the mud flow.The volunteers cut the femur bones looked in them,and then they would say yep they died of starvation.To me that left many unanswered questions #1 there were no predators eating these animals #2 The smelled funny #3 there were no skin,blood,urine,organ or any other samples taken.You would have thought there would be a toxicology test,taken with the timber company's spraying chemicals.Let's now talk law enforcement myself and many members of my group,have made countless trip over the last 3 years to Olimpia, to support them and try to get more dollars.Our volunteer hours are in the ten's of thousands,doing projects for the Forest Service the DNR and WDFW over the years.This was the right thing to do,and we certainly didn't need any reward or special privilege.Did i mention i spent out pocket over the last 2 years,over 10,000 dollars feeding the animals we all enjoy seeing and hunting.Still not asking for special privileges or extra hunting opportunity's.BBarnes keeping public lands public.
Since i have been involved on this web site,and by the way IT'S A GREAT ONE i have tried to raise awareness.Also i have tried to let outdoorsman know of upcoming events things that are affecting our opportunity's and getting people engaged so our opportunity's aren't taken from us.The problem i see is united we stand and divided we fall.What I'm trying to say is opportunity is going away and no one wants to help out theres no team work or togetherness.Its iii or me me me well theres no i in team and
there will be opportunity,if we continue to look out only for our self's.You've got to think past yourself and include everyone else,my way of thinking is EVERYONE should have the same opportunities that i have had.The M H program should be like a eagle scout in the boy scouts, there no extras just a self satisfaction to you archived something that most thought couldn't be done.My hats off to the over achievers in life,that's something that i have personally chosen thoughout my life to be.In closing I'm still not and wont ever ask for opportunities over others because i choose to stand united BBarnes keeping public lands public.
Back to my point THINK PAST YOURSELF.
This subject seems to be getting allot of attention, now all someone needs to do is post all the opportunity's.I want to see this years reg opportunity's posted then the real debate will follow.Post the unit the time allowed, time of year and total days the
M H get verse the rest of the 277,000 hunters paying the bills here.B Barnes keeping the public lands public and still not asking for any extra opportunity's
P.S. we need to hear the stories
I would still like to know why the M H gets, to hunt the pumas plains and others don't?
I would also like to point out that i have been respectfull of others on this site.Futher more any one who knows me would vouce for the dollars spent ,and the efforts that have been put foward.As far as ethics go check out my website.As for blowing hot air i would like to say i brougt some great points to the table and recignized people for there accomplisments.B Barnes keeping the public lands public and still not asking for any extra opportunity's. :)
Link: http://www.mtsainthelensrescue.com/
Post by: Goldeneye on April 22, 2009, 10:17:23 PM
>
HOW ABOUT THE PUMAS PLAIN'S TAG AT MOUNT SAINT HELEN'S THIS IS FEDRAL LAND AND SHOULD BE ACCESSABLE TO ANYONE WHO PAY'S TAX .THIS IS NOTHING LESS THAN DESCRIMANATION TO THE 200 THOUSAND PLUS HUNTERS WHO BUY TAG'S IN THIS STATE. THERE NEED'S TO BE A CLASS ACTION LAW SUIT OVER THIS.B BARNES KEEPING PUBLIC LANDS PUBLIC FOR EVERYONE NOT JUST STATE EMPLOYEES WHO TAKE THE COURSE ONLINE AT WORK WHILE WE PAY THERE WAGE.
bbarnes,
I am a card holder in the MHE program and have been for many years. I'm not going to comment about the bulk of your note because I don't think it would do much good. One thing I do take exception to is your accusation above that states "PUBLIC LANDS PUBLIC FOR EVERYONE NOT JUST STATE EMPLOYEES WHO TAKE THE COURSE ONLINE AT WORK WHILE WE PAY THERE WAGE". First off, I'm not a state employee, you do not pay my wages, I studied for this course often after putting in a 12 to 14 hour days at work and passed it after I felt I knew the material which is extensive. Also, the course is not an on-line course as you state in your posting. It is not a cake walk by any means. Like many people I donate about a 100 hours a year to various conservation work for the state and Ducks Unlimited. So, to sum it up, don't try to lump all of us into one convenient bucket. That just won't float.
Post by: Little Dave on April 23, 2009, 06:49:06 AM
HOW ABOUT THE PUMAS PLAIN'S TAG AT MOUNT SAINT HELEN'S THIS IS FEDRAL LAND AND SHOULD BE ACCESSABLE TO ANYONE WHO PAY'S TAX .THIS IS NOTHING LESS THAN DESCRIMANATION TO THE 200 THOUSAND PLUS HUNTERS WHO BUY TAG'S IN THIS STATE.
I would still like to know why the M H gets, to hunt the pumas plains and others don't?
The "Elk area 5063 - Pumice Plain" is entirely within the boundary of the National Volcanic Monument managed by Gifford Pinchot National Forest. So any access issue concerning permission to enter the land is determined by the forest service.
Elk in this state are considered to be property of the state whether the elk is on public or private property. Also, hunting in Washington is considered a privilege, not a right. The privilege to hunt is regulated by the WDFW and tribal agencies with treaty rights as an exception to state regulations.
The entire Elk area 5063 - Pumice Plain is between the tourist viewpoint at Johnston Ridge and the volcano. What I recall about this area is that the plain is in full public view. So the situation here is that we have a hunt happening at one of the states top tourist destinations... an elk being loaded up for the ride home in the same parking lot. Whether having a MH certification or not, good idea to promote a positive image of hunting when you hunt in a theatre like this.
Post by: KillBilly on April 23, 2009, 07:23:24 AM
The "Elk area 5063 - Pumice Plain" is entirely within the boundary of the National Volcanic Monument managed by Gifford Pinchot National Forest. So any access issue concerning permission to enter the land is determined by the forest service.
Elk in this state are considered to be property of the state whether the elk is on public or private property. Also, hunting in Washington is considered a privilege, not a right. The privilege to hunt is regulated by the WDFW and tribal agencies with treaty rights as an exception to state regulations.
The entire Elk area 5063 - Pumice Plain is between the tourist viewpoint at Johnston Ridge and the volcano. What I recall about this area is that the plain is in full public view. So the situation here is that we have a hunt happening at one of the states top tourist destinations... an elk being loaded up for the ride home in the same parking lot. Whether having a MH certification or not, good idea to promote a positive image of hunting when you hunt in a theatre like this.
Well stated
Post by: buckhorn2 on April 23, 2009, 07:30:07 AM
Post by: workstohunt on April 23, 2009, 07:43:25 AM
All of this was explained in the master hunter informational meeting OPEN TO THE PUBLIC for those that had enough of a concern to attend and be informed and ask questions, instead of trashing someone on a web site that does'nt agree with ther point of view.
QUIT WHINING!!!! it's getting really old.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 23, 2009, 07:43:37 AM
Post by: KillzElk on April 23, 2009, 11:10:27 AM
Thank You. :)
http://wdfw.wa.gov/outreach/access/accessibility/roadaccess.htm
Post by: Bob33 on April 23, 2009, 03:26:40 PM
Post by: bearhunter59 on April 23, 2009, 03:57:46 PM
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I didn't realize that enrolling in the MH program automatically proves your ethics and makes you a higher caliber individual than myself.
Enrolling in the program doesn't prove anything to anyone. Completing the course and getting state certification, in the eyes of the WDFW and other Master Hunters, does.
Here's a question for those of you complaining about the "advantages" the Master Hunters get....why haven't you bothered trying to become a Master Hunter? If you feel that master hunters have a better chance of drawing a moose tag and harvesting one, then why not become a Master Hunter? Instead of standing outside the clubhouse, complaining about the advantages of being a club member, why not try joining the club? Seems like that would be an easy solution to your complaint. My guess is because you miss the major point of the Master Hunter program, which is promoting high ethics and conservationism amongst the hunting community. It is NOT about the "extra hunting opportunities"...that is just one of the benefits of the program,(which a majority of the Master Hunters will never be selected to take advantage of). Instead of being jealous, try joining the club...
Post by: Caretaker on April 23, 2009, 04:31:02 PM
My two cents.
Post by: KillBilly on April 25, 2009, 08:15:42 PM
We have talked about the master hunters and the common hunter but what about the hunters with disabilities how do they fit in. I have a good friend who has a disability card and every year he comes over and we try to figure what hunt would be best for him to put in for. He works and has little time off so he has to hunt the west side and he has to have help if he gets to hunt. WE got to talking about opportunity and disability verses master hunter came up. He brought a 2007 hunting regulation to show me the new direction the state is going. In 2007 masterhunters had 35 hunts to put in for with 440 permits to put in for including the second elk tag that did;nt effect points. Disabled hunters had 15 to choose from with 83 permits to choose from and 10 hunts were westside. In 2009 master hunters had 36 hunts to put in for with 572 permits avalable many of the hunts not effecting accumulated points. The disabled hunter this year has 13 hunts to choose from with only 6 on the west side with 26 permits available and only 63 permits for the whole state for the disabled. It sure sounds unfair to my friend they took all the hunts away that were close to our area and he does;nt know what to do. Can they maybe start a master hunting program for the disabled so he would have some hunting opportunity or maybe the master hunters could earn more points by taking a handicapped person hunting anyway my friend thinks the state just took him right out of elk hunting. Pumice plains is going to come back on us there are to many eyes on that hunt.
Your friend can become a MH, I know he can because I am both. Being a disabled hunter does not prevent one from participating in the MH Program. again, don't sit outside looking in, have your friend join us.
Post by: Bob33 on April 25, 2009, 09:39:20 PM
Post by: bbarnes on April 25, 2009, 10:50:11 PM
I would hole heartedly agree our sport needs more ethics responsibility and sportsmanship,or we will continue to be viewed by other in a bad light.My family and i have hunted this area and have left without a trace since the 1930s, I'm a third generation user of this area and my 3 children are the 4th.My job my family and non profit group take all my time, weather its cleaning up the woods or raising awareness to others who are uninformed.The program is not for everyone and has raised concerns with many,maybe a good fix for everyone would be a continuing education program.This would require all hunters to attend a three hour class a year, to refresh them on whats expected rules and regulations.This could bridge the gap between hunters and the WDFW possibly gaining some support for them.This would be a opportunities to exchange new ideas, and maybe get rid of some old ones.In closing i would encourage everyone to get involved in your county's issues, and issues where we all recreate.Encourage the WDFW to show up and and voice concern over wildlife areas that are being developed.B Barnes keeping public lands public. :)
Post by: Little Dave on April 26, 2009, 01:28:22 PM
The problem is it was to be and opportunity for everyone and,to help the struggling Forest Service and WDFW.The plan was offer a 100 dollar chance to harvest a mature bull with a quality hunt.There would be 15 total tags divided evenly between the three user groups,rotating each year to give each group a chance to hunt the rut.If 200,000 thousand people tried for this tag ...
It is an intersting idea. Being a fee for a chance, I'd classify it as a raffle.
I've had it with fees though. A few years ago filing fees for state documents was something nominal like zero to $5.00. A few years ago the state realized that it could increase the filing fee to support some other pet project. The fees for filing documents shot up to $40 per document in just two years... like when you start a business, when you buy a house, stuff like that. Last night the state house approved a bill to raise this fee another $20 or so to support homeless programs.
My point is... introduce a fee for a chance with an introductory low price but be prepared to see the price go up real soon... particularly if the politicians think that nobody is looking. I don't want $100 (to soon become $2000) raffle hunts all over the state.
Looks like there were a few hundred applications last year at the normal application price. I suppose it would be unlikely that 200 thousand hunters would buy in. For example, it wouldn't make any sense for me considering the number of prime hunting locations between here and there that are not in a park setting.
Post by: furbearer365 on April 26, 2009, 04:07:38 PM
Post by: bbarnes on April 26, 2009, 04:35:03 PM
Post by: Little Dave on April 26, 2009, 05:08:18 PM
I guarantee that most (maybe even all) of the people who are not MH have CHOSEN to not be a part of the program because they (including me) believe the program does more harm than good....If you didn't do it for the tags than why join, why not just donate your time and do it for yourself without the "reward." ... No one said we hate Master hunters, we hate the program and what it does.
Sure. Two options discussed though... any others?
1. Use a raffle. Affordable at $100? Maybe higher next year?
2. Draw from hunters meeting requirements for certification.
We understand that all 200 thousand hunters can't go in there we have to put some sort of fair restriction in place. A raffle changes that restriction from skills/knowlege/stewardship-based to financial-based.
Let's say a guy out of college might take a night job scrubbing deep fat fryers to pay for his extra raffle tickets. Then you get another kid living on some investment banking trust fund buys as many tickets as wants without much care at all. If the rich kid wins, I agree, it is fair. For me, I prefer to leave money out of the picture. A guy shouldn't have to be wealthy to gain access to hunt.
Incidentally, this pay more money to hunt concept is actually a significant factor in hunting attrition nationwide. It is a good idea to move away from fee-based access where we can.
Post by: Little Dave on April 26, 2009, 05:29:08 PM
Reply to LITTLE DAVE the reason there were only 200 or so people that applied is it was only open to M H.Imagine how many would have tried otherwise,also i hate the fee's seems we pay enough of them.I was trying to think out side the box, to get other hunting oppertunity's for all of us in a area that could be a quality hunt.Look at the new game reg's and you will see extra oppertunity's,they start august 1 way ahead of all the other groups and end in some areas in march 31.Seems to me this is way over presuing the animals and we need a season for county commisioners who allow development in wildlife areas and winter ranges.B Barnes keeping public lands public.
It looks like the biggest app pool last year was Margaret A (WF) with 4257 apps last year and 18 available this year. With just 7 available this year, using some fuzzy algebra and making a very broad assumption that the regions are equivalent in character, it would translate to 1655 applications for Pumice Plain... at the standard application price... not the $100 raffle price.
Based on what is happening around my town, there are similar extended seasons arranged. Generally, the option to hunt outside of the regular hunting season is done under the advice of the department wildlife biologists and on a very limited basis. It is a legal way to create an opportunity to manage problem animals (using hunting methods) outside of the regular season.
Post by: Bob33 on April 26, 2009, 07:06:55 PM
I don't personally know anyone that fits that description. I know several individuals that started the MH application and quit because they didn't want to study all the materials.
Post by: KillzElk on April 29, 2009, 12:26:25 PM
I have enjoyed all the post from everyone with the Pro's & Con's on each side.. :)
Post by: Kent Hunter on April 30, 2009, 04:55:27 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 30, 2009, 05:31:46 AM
Post by: KillBilly on April 30, 2009, 08:55:52 AM
So many of the MH who are arguing still don't get it. I guarantee that most (maybe even all) of the people who are not MH have CHOSEN to not be a part of the program because they (including me) believe the program does more harm than good. I understand the whole argument about how the elk have ravaged a farmers land in Eastern Washington and he has many expenses to repair what they have done, but what does that have to do with MT St Helens elk for instance. Do we need a program of this sort to "fix the problem." It will take some serious arguing to convince me that anyone who is a MH became one for any other reason than the benefits of the EXTRA hunting opportunities. Anyone can donate time and go above and beyond the call of duty to help without getting the extra tags. If you didn't do it for the tags than why join, why not just donate your time and do it for yourself without the "reward." But then again, now days even some of the most giving still want something in return, right. No one said we hate Master hunters, we hate the program and what it does. :rolleyes:
If all the of the above claims about your unselfish volunteer work and your claims about giving and never taking are true, then you really don't have a reason to argue for or against MH. Unless of course you are not as unselfish as you claim. Itsounds like all you need to do is take the test and you would be a MH. How, do tell would you taking the test and passing make you any different than you are now? Explain that one... I don't buy your theory, you are the one that still doesn't get it
Post by: Rob on April 30, 2009, 09:18:24 AM
Through some strange set of unfortunate circumstances you find yourself in charge of the Elk Damage program for some portion of Washington State. Bad Karma or something, who knows....
Anyway, you have been put in the enviable position of being in between PO'd hunters, and angry land owners. You are chartered with reducing the amount of money the state spends on Elk damage, while continuing to reduce the amount of elk damage.
What are your options?
I see these options:
1. Open up more tags for the general public
A. Pros: Cheap. Makes the hunters happier
B. Cons: Difficult to target specific herds/locations. No way whatsoever to control the quality and skill of the person who will be brining a loaded weapon capable of launching a lethal projectile for 3 miles. This total unknown will be in contact with a PO'd land owner with whom you are trying to develop a relationship, who probably does not like hunters anyway given they have to drive trespassers off their land every year.
2. Continue to pay Damage fees to land owners
A. Pros: Very easy to do
B. Cons: does not accomplish your goal of reducing spend
3. Hire professional hunters
A. Pros: Easy to do. Generally a known quantity of the quality of hunter and professionalism. You can check references.
B. Cons: Very expensive. PO's the hunters who would rather shoot the animals themselves.
4. Do nothing
A. Pros; easy to do.
B. Cons: does not solve the problems or goals, but a great way to get yourself out of this sucky job.
5. Leverage a program like the master hunter program
A. Pros: Provides any hunter, who can prove capable, the ability to participate. Avoids costs of professional hunters. Sets a reasonable bar with regard to training, competency and ethics such that 90% of landowner conflicts should be greatly reduced.
B. Cons: Nightmare to manage. Bad people still get into the program and it is difficult/expensive to manage them out of the program in an equitable way.
What would you do? Don't answer from your passionate points of view. Put yourself in the role. Ask yourself honestly what you would do.
This next paragraph is extremely important and is being missed by most folks I think. Do not confuse damage hunts - most of the MH' special tags are damage hunts or targeted to areas of high damage - with hunting. This is game management - not hunting. Hunting just happens to be the tools that can be used to manage the game.
Also, I do not buy the fact that this is an unfair program. Anyone who can meet the qualifications can apply. I work 60+ hours a week and was able to get my certification because the program was important to me. I'm also not the brightest bulb in the pack. If I can do it, anyone can.
Full disclosure: I am not in any way affiliated with the game dpt. I am a newly certified master hunter. I have not participated any of the benefits of the program as of yet. I probably will, but it is not my priority right now.
So. What would you do if you had this job?
Post by: Bob33 on April 30, 2009, 01:41:48 PM
:)
Post by: buck470 on April 30, 2009, 02:13:30 PM
Awesome job, couldn't of explained it better.
Fellow MH.
Post by: bbarnes on April 30, 2009, 10:17:53 PM
First lets address the expense of the MH program, how much does this program cost the WDFW.With a budget billions in the hole in this state ,and the WDFW reducing officers witch we desperately need ,whats the priority Law Enforcement or MH.Now lets address the quality and skill of not all but some of the M H.How many shots should it take to harvest a elk? minimum of 6 or maximum of 8.If you guessed 6 or 8 your wright because 3 of last years pumas plains tag holders shoot that many times to kill there elk.Did i mention they shot at over 300 yards,so tell me the skill requirement they teach at the MH program to shoot projectiles at this range.I was sent a video of this and planned on putting it on u tube, but knew this would bring a bad lite on all of us.I guess this is the part where i have a hard time putting my personal beliefs aside.That would include but not limited to sportsmanship,ethics and did i mention morals.To address the unfortunate circumstance if i was put in charge of a elk damage program.First i would personally meet each and every one of the land owners.Second i would look at available habitat and see what the draw is.Third find out what conflicts there have been if ANY with general population of hunters.Forth try first giving out trespass permition slips to general hunters and monitoring with a group like eves in the woods.Fifth possibility of building fences with volunteers,that would intern get to know that land owner and gain permission to hunt there and reduce the problem.I wont address the unfair because, in many of the previous threads its been addressed.
In closing ask youself who's been the problem is it to many animals, is it to many hunters,or is it MISMANAGEMENT.Please put me in charge you would see change, for the better.BBarnes keeping public lands public. :)
Post by: swift on May 01, 2009, 12:12:02 AM
bbarnes sounds like a Obama quote javascript:void(0); PLEASE Do not put ALL of us (master hunters) in one basket,you have to the best of my knowledge
only talked about westside problems,(not that we dont have some) I agree with some of your points. But it does help some farmers here on the eastside ( I DON'T KNOW sh!t ABOUT THE WESTSIDE ELK PROBLEM) MH are just TOOLS to the WDFW!!!!!! I Did it to help the farmers in my neck of the woods (and put meat in the freezer for my family !) I agree that if you CAN NOT take a one shot kill don't shoot! but the system is flawed. I have seen stuff I'm not happy about and called it in. It goes along the line of one black eye one your wife and your a wife beater, But we can't get rid of all the wife beaters in the program at once it takes time. I'm sorry that you feel we (MH) are not a step above because we worked harder to git there(anyone can apply IF you do not have a game violation ) and willing to put the time in, It's not perfect but it works in 509 land!
Post by: swift on May 01, 2009, 12:15:53 AM
HEY TODD you pot stirrer you see what you started!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Goldeneye on May 01, 2009, 08:58:17 AM
Now lets address the quality and skill of not all but some of the M H.How many shots should it take to harvest a elk? minimum of 6 or maximum of 8.If you guessed 6 or 8 your wright because 3 of last years pumas plains tag holders shoot that many times to kill there elk.Did i mention they shot at over 300 yards,so tell me the skill requirement they teach at the MH program to shoot projectiles at this range.I was sent a video of this and planned on putting it on u tube, but knew this would bring a bad lite on all of us.I guess this is the part where i have a hard time putting my personal beliefs aside.That would include but not limited to sportsmanship,ethics and did i mention morals. :)
bbarnes,
Referencing your quote above. As well as being a MH I know a number of them. All have many years of woods experience. I have never witnessed any of them taking a shot at an elk where it requires spraying lead at range. The shot I took this last year (which was not a master hunter special tag hunt) was just that "one shot one kill" thing you say most of us cannot do. My spotter who is a marksmen for the state patrol (and a master hunter) commented on the shot and placement as being darn good given the angle I was given. Myself and others I know spend lots of hours in the off season dialing in our handloads to avoid the situation you stated as seeing. I have too much respect for the animal for that.
One of the things this program is supposed to be about is the ethics not to spray lead as you state in your note. If you indeed did video this, and matched the hunters with vehicles in your movie. Turn them into Mik Mikitik at WDFW and they'll probably be pulled from the program. MH are supposed to be able to operate in sensitive areas with minimal disruption to the public.
It comes across in your posts that one of your goals is to do your best to pit one hunter group against another. Please just pick a topic. I believe what your subject aim is control and management of public lands.
Post by: Rob on May 01, 2009, 10:04:43 AM
Reply to ROB
First lets address the expense of the MH program, how much does this program cost the WDFW.With a budget billions in the hole in this state ,and the WDFW reducing officers witch we desperately need ,whats the priority Law Enforcement or MH.Now lets address the quality and skill of not all but some of the M H.How many shots should it take to harvest a elk? minimum of 6 or maximum of 8.If you guessed 6 or 8 your wright because 3 of last years pumas plains tag holders shoot that many times to kill there elk.Did i mention they shot at over 300 yards,so tell me the skill requirement they teach at the MH program to shoot projectiles at this range.I was sent a video of this and planned on putting it on u tube, but knew this would bring a bad lite on all of us.I guess this is the part where i have a hard time putting my personal beliefs aside.That would include but not limited to sportsmanship,ethics and did i mention morals.To address the unfortunate circumstance if i was put in charge of a elk damage program.First i would personally meet each and every one of the land owners.Second i would look at available habitat and see what the draw is.Third find out what conflicts there have been if ANY with general population of hunters.Forth try first giving out trespass permition slips to general hunters and monitoring with a group like eves in the woods.Fifth possibility of building fences with volunteers,that would intern get to know that land owner and gain permission to hunt there and reduce the problem.I wont address the unfair because, in many of the previous threads its been addressed.
In closing ask youself who's been the problem is it to many animals, is it to many hunters,or is it MISMANAGEMENT.Please put me in charge you would see change, for the better.BBarnes keeping public lands public. :)
Yep I fully agree. It is impossible to screen out poor shooters. And everyone has a bad day. I know I have. Took me 8 shots to down my Gemsbok on a trip where I averaged less than 2 shots per animal on the 10 others. But at least there is some screening rather than an open drawing.
But you did not really answer the question in the scenario. I worked with one of the damage control folks on my Master Hunter program. Everything you listed that you would do, they already to. And ironicaly they use the Master Hunter program to do many of them (meeting with land owners, providing tags, building fences).
So what you have listed 90% already in place. If I understand correctly you are more or less promoting continuing the status quo which amounts to option #4.
So given that you are clearly a thoughtful person (that is not meant to be sarcastic at all-honestly you well written and respecful) and I don't think you really promote doing nothing, and the WDFW already:
-meets personally with the land owers
-evaluates habitat and tags in the different areas
-deals daily with the conflicts between land owners and hutners
-has a roubust feel free to hunt with written permission program
-Conduct many fence building programs for land owners on the States dime
What else would you (or anyone else) do within these constraints: Budget, relationships with land owners, sensitive situations, etc. How would you reduce damage payouts, maintain or improve relationships with land owners, and safely control the populations in sensitive areas?
One other thought I had on this. How many people think that if the master hunter tags were eliminated along with the program, that more tags would be opened to the public? I know I don't.
Post by: huntnphool on May 02, 2009, 08:49:04 PM
Quote
5. Leverage a program like the master hunter program
Hey Rob, how about
"C" Since the MH program is held in such high regard with F&W and speak loudly of their "giving back" agenda, why not have youth, disabled or senior hunters use a portion of these tags but must be accomanied by a master hunter.
Post by: Rob on May 03, 2009, 06:23:57 PM
I'll suggest it to the advisory board and see if it gets wings.
Post by: colockumelk on May 05, 2009, 10:50:35 PM
Quote5. Leverage a program like the master hunter program
Hey Rob, how about
"C" Since the MH program is held in such high regard with F&W and speak loudly of their "giving back" agenda, why not have youth, disabled or senior hunters use a portion of these tags but must be accomanied by a master hunter.
That is an awsome idea.
My only problem with the MH program around Ellensburg is that it is just a band aid for the elk damage problem. The MH goes out shoots an elk and they stay away for a little bit but then they come back. If the problem is really that serious then they need to put in some elk fences. I understand this is expensive but they spend money on damages so why not fork up the cash to save money in the long run? I have a problem with the WDFW allowing them to harvest two cows in an area where they don't even give out any antlerless permits, Muzzle Loaders don't have a season and archery guys are restricted to true spike only. All because "the population is declining." If this is so then why can MH harvest two of them. 30 years ago elk damage wasn't as big of a problem. I think the problem is that hay farmers have figured out how to milk some cash out of the state. I see cattle grazing in hay fields during the fall and winter all the time. So how do they not damage the hay fields but the elk do?
My problem and I think that many on here's problem is not with the Master Hunters themselves the problem is with the WDFW and how they run the program. The way they run it in Ellensburg is an excellant example of how it is improperly ran. It's a band-aid and that's all it is. Also I am a person who could take the MH exam but have no desire to. There are not any MH hunts up in the high country. Maybe someday when I get old and can't get around too well I'll take the exam. But until then I prefer to stay up high where no one else is at.
I like huntphool's idea of having a disabled hunter or a youth hunter out there accompanied by a MH.
Post by: Bob33 on May 06, 2009, 07:30:50 AM
http://www.yakima-herald.com/stories/2008/05/22/master-hunters-help-in-droves
Post by: Rob on May 06, 2009, 12:36:44 PM
My problem and I think that many on here's problem is not with the Master Hunters themselves the problem is with the WDFW and how they run the program.
That may really be the heart of the issues discussed in this thread, especially when expanded beyond the MH program and to Damage Control.
I stated it earlier, but I'll state it again as in thinking about the issues contained in this thread it has been an epiphany for me. The MH program is one of the TOOLS that the State uses to manage wildlife. Personally I am very happy to see an opportunity available to general hunters (willing to put in the time) than hiring in professional hunters to do the job.
By attacking the MH program, I feel folks are missing what the real issues they are upset about are. Instead we are advancing with a house divided strategy which weakens the cause of hunters statewide.
I could be 180 degrees off, but personally I am 100% fully confident that if the MH program was killed, the result would be zero additional tags available in drawings or alterations in general season rules.
I may have missed it colockumelk, but what is your reply to the scenario I put forth? I hear the issues you call out, but how would you handle the situation described if you were in charge?
Post by: Buckrub on May 12, 2009, 04:50:48 PM
What about option #6?
Landowner tags in place of money for damage.
Post by: luvtohnt on May 12, 2009, 04:58:42 PM
Rob,
What about option #6?
Landowner tags in place of money for damage.
Because then the land owners seem to think they can sell them for a "trespassing fee" and make huge money off of the bull tags. I talked to a guy that managed an orchard in the rattlesnake hills area and he said he had a client who paid a $10,000 trespass fee to hunt a bull on the orchard. He wanted one in particular that visited the orchard from the Hanford reach. We all know what the elk out there look like.
Brandon
Post by: jackelope on May 12, 2009, 05:33:42 PM
Quote
Because then the land owners seem to think they can sell them for a "trespassing fee" and make huge money
so who should hunt the landowner's land then...if not the master hunters and not the guy who pays to hunt it??
i'm curious and thats all. should you or i be able to for some reason? i have not taken much part in this discussion and don't really intend to. just happened to look and my curiosity is peaked.
i'm with rob on this statement:
Quote
Personally I am very happy to see an opportunity available to general hunters (willing to put in the time) than hiring in professional hunters to do the job.
Post by: huntnphool on May 14, 2009, 12:17:58 AM