Hunting Washington Forum

Equipment & Gear => Guns and Ammo => Topic started by: 7mmfan on September 08, 2020, 06:09:06 AM

Title: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: 7mmfan on September 08, 2020, 06:09:06 AM: On my most recent load testing outing, I was experiencing the 3rd shot flier phenomenon. My first 2 shots were frequently touching and the 3rd would fly. You more experienced reloaders/shooters, is this just a heat issue? Or is this indicative of something else going on between the gun and load that it doesn't like? I love the bullets touching but then the 3rd frustrates the heck out of me. My logical mind tells me I only need 1 or 2 shots to get the job done, but my data driven mind tells me something can be improved upon here.
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: CaNINE on September 08, 2020, 06:19:25 AM: It could be a thousand different things but often I’ve found groups like that suggest you may be getting close to a node. Start fine tuning your seating depth 10 thou in either direction.

Or you could have a heat up issue and contact point changing harmonics.
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: jasnt on September 08, 2020, 07:43:30 AM: Does it do this with any other loads?
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: 7mmfan on September 08, 2020, 08:11:32 AM: This is the first load that had anything that resembles good accuracy in this rifle. Lower charge had a very nice tight 3 shot group, and as I've increased the charge this is happening. It just seems that there's a lot of potential there, but maybe it's not worth chasing since the lower charge is quite accurate.
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: Stein on September 08, 2020, 08:31:01 AM: Are you shooting through a chrono? Since it's the 3rd shot, it seems to hint at either barrel heating or the thing that presses the trigger...

I try to keep a consistent cool down period, I set a 3 minute timer on my phone to space the shots out equally and try to reduce that variable.
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: 7mmfan on September 08, 2020, 08:42:21 AM: I am shooting through a chrono, but I haven't noticed anything obvious there. This gun gets hot fast, I try to wait at least 1 minute between shots and 20 between groups. I'm not ruling me out of the equation, but when I check back in with the known quality loads I get the same quality results, so I feel like I'm doing my part.

It's fine, I'm really just fussing over loads that show potential but only gain me about 50-75 fps, so I should just can it and stick with the load I know is quality.
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: Stein on September 08, 2020, 08:47:59 AM: Yeah, I did the same thing and was looking at 100 fps better, but pushing the edge of overpressure and really touchy nodes, so I ended up going back to the load I found shooting groups years ago before I had a chrono.

It is fun to experiment, but I always seem to go back to what's proven.
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: fishngamereaper on September 08, 2020, 10:11:52 AM: Probably barrel heating. Have you fired 4th and 5th rounds to see where they pattern.

Normally the cold bore is the "flier" and the follow up shots are more indicative of your load accuracy.
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: 7mmfan on September 08, 2020, 10:34:26 AM: I haven't. I normally do 3 shot groups because the gun heats up so fast and takes a while to cool. I have noticed my first couple shots after cleaning can be a bit erratic but seem to come back to normal by my 3rd. I never hunt with a clean gun because of it.
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: BULLBLASTER on September 08, 2020, 10:39:31 AM: Try keeping shot strings to 2 at a time but continue to shoot at the same spot for multiple strings.
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: 7mmfan on September 08, 2020, 11:15:30 AM: That's a good call. I'll try that next time out.
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: HighlandLofts on September 08, 2020, 06:10:44 PM: I have a Remington 788 in 243 that I loaded 100 grain pointed soft points. I had four different types of bullets and each bullet shot different with the same powder. Some liked the low end, one liked the mid range and one liked the high end range. All shot from a gun cradle.
Then I loaded all four projectiles with the same powder, same ame primer and there was one projectile that loked that charge.
It's a fun game figureing it out.
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: Bob33 on September 08, 2020, 06:24:24 PM: Do the first two shots always go to the same point of impact? Shoot a group and take the target home. Come back another day and shoot the same target. If the first two shots from a cold barrel always go to the same point of impact then barrel heat or bedding are the likely candidates for the third shot moving. For a hunting rifle I could live with a gun that always puts the first shot or two in the same spot.
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: Bango skank on September 08, 2020, 07:34:08 PM: take your 2 shots, go screw off for 10 minutes, come back and take a third shot
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: 7mmfan on September 08, 2020, 08:01:59 PM: Quote from: Bango skank on September 08, 2020, 07:34:08 PM
take your 2 shots, go screw off for 10 minutes, come back and take a third shot

This is what I'll start off with.
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: Magnum_Willys on September 08, 2020, 08:12:47 PM: Its always the last shot in a great group that goes to heck. No matter whether 3,4 or 5 shots. With only 3 shots tough to tell - might be the second shot is the flier which gave you a good first two shots ?
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: Ingwe on September 08, 2020, 08:42:47 PM: I like to shoot 3 shot groups with a couple minutes between shots just to see what a gun can do. But I also like to shoot 3 shot groups fast with no cooling like shooting at an animal to see what the gun will do
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: Alchase on September 08, 2020, 08:46:30 PM: Quote from: Magnum_Willys on September 08, 2020, 08:12:47 PM
Its always the last shot in a great group that goes to heck. No matter whether 3,4 or 5 shots. With only 3 shots tough to tell - might be the second shot is the flier which gave you a good first two shots ?

This is my problem, and yes I narrowed it down to myself not the gun, LOL.
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: 7mmfan on September 09, 2020, 10:41:23 AM: Quote from: Magnum_Willys on September 08, 2020, 08:12:47 PM
Its always the last shot in a great group that goes to heck. No matter whether 3,4 or 5 shots. With only 3 shots tough to tell - might be the second shot is the flier which gave you a good first two shots ?

Right? I've considered that as well. To be frank the scope on that gun coupled with the astigmatism in my shooting eye make it difficult for me to feel confident in getting great groups. At 100 yards the crosshairs completely cover the 1" circle I'm shooting at. So I know i'm in the zone, but don't know to what scale. My 7 mag with a much higher magnification is infinitely more user friendly. May just be time for an upgrade.
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: HawkCreek on September 11, 2020, 03:18:55 PM: Are you positive it's not you? I do something on my 3rd shot that always screws things up. I can put two shots touching, screw up the third shot and put the 4 and 5th shots touching the first two. I've been that way for years. Cant figure out what I'm doing different. And it's always the third shot. Weird.
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: Karl Blanchard on September 11, 2020, 03:26:16 PM: High flier is usually do to inadequate rear support/poor cheek pressure. Left right fliers are often due to ones grip. Not saying that's the case but it often is. Small groups are really hard to shoot consistently, especially with lighter weight rifles. On the internet evwryone shoots sub quarter minute every time but in the real world if a factory gun holds moa every time you get behind it, you're doing pretty darn good :twocents:
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: NWShooter on September 11, 2020, 05:59:39 PM: In my experience. More often than not, it’s a bedding issue or a lack of bedding. Free floating barrel in both cases. I have had non bedded rifles with free floated barrels do it. Had them bedded and the problem went away. I have had smiths do crap/stressed bedding jobs and had the third round flyer issue. Had the action bedded properly and the third round flyer went away. I have had ultra light #1 contour barrels do it no matter what.
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: mountainman on September 11, 2020, 06:24:52 PM: What gun/caliber are you shooting? If a light contour/high velocity clambering you can be looking at barrel heating. Shoot 2, let barrel completely cool, then shoot 3rd shot. If tight, then it would be barrel heating. My titanium Browning 7-08, Adorondak in Creedmore, and probably 50% of the lightweight/featherweight I have owned, throw the 3rd shot on a warm barrel. But it only takes 1! First shots count👍
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: 7mmfan on September 11, 2020, 08:28:23 PM: It's a very lightweight 7mm-08. It's been bedded and floated. I think I answered my question today. Shot 2 shot groups, 3 minutes between each shot and 10 minutes between each group. Fliers stopped. These were two different groups with a new aim point.
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: 7mmfan on September 11, 2020, 08:32:52 PM: And, it can definitely be me. I shoot my heavy ruger 7 mag like this every time I go out, but the lightweight rifle is definitely more challenging.
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: mountainman on September 11, 2020, 08:44:19 PM: There you go! Shouldn't take more than 2 shots anyway👍 glad it worked out 7mmfan!
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: Magnum_Willys on September 11, 2020, 08:49:56 PM: Time for seating test. Current load +.005, -.005, -.010 , -.015
3 to 4 shots each.
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: 7mmfan on September 11, 2020, 09:15:48 PM: Quote from: Magnum_Willys on September 11, 2020, 08:49:56 PM
Time for seating test. Current load +.005, -.005, -.010 , -.015
3 to 4 shots each.
I did this last week and accuracy dropped everytime I got further from the lands. I think I'm settled on this load now.
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: Bango skank on September 11, 2020, 09:23:02 PM: Quote from: 7mmfan on September 11, 2020, 09:15:48 PM
Quote from: Magnum_Willys on September 11, 2020, 08:49:56 PM
Time for seating test. Current load +.005, -.005, -.010 , -.015
3 to 4 shots each.
I did this last week and accuracy dropped everytime I got further from the lands. I think I'm settled on this load now.

If youre getting groups like this, youre set imo. Better than most folks get in reality. If you have to mess with anything, just dial your scope a few clicks left so you get his finger next time :chuckle:
Title: Re: 3rd shot fliers
Post by: 7mmfan on September 13, 2020, 02:12:51 PM: Quote from: Bango skank on September 11, 2020, 09:23:02 PM
Quote from: 7mmfan on September 11, 2020, 09:15:48 PM
Quote from: Magnum_Willys on September 11, 2020, 08:49:56 PM
Time for seating test. Current load +.005, -.005, -.010 , -.015
3 to 4 shots each.
I did this last week and accuracy dropped everytime I got further from the lands. I think I'm settled on this load now.

If youre getting groups like this, youre set imo. Better than most folks get in reality. If you have to mess with anything, just dial your scope a few clicks left so you get his finger next time :chuckle:

That gun doesn't get messed with at all! It's as dialed as dialed can be. It was my other rifle that is a constant thorn. We're beginning to understand each other better now. :chuckle: