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Title: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on November 25, 2020, 08:56:16 PM
This is really gnawing at me.   I saw a wolf near Colville a week ago,  got within 80 yds of me and I got pictures of its tracks.   Last year in the Willapa unit I saw 3 or 4 sets of tracks in mud that look identical.   There were no human tracks on this walk in road.  I'm just curious if there are any confirmed sightings or photos of wolves on the west side.  After seeing there size and speed going uphill for 500 yds I'm really afraid for the deer and elk.   The snow photo is the confirmed wolf,  the dirt one I'm not sure.

Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on November 25, 2020, 09:01:26 PM
Here's the questionable track that was with 2 other sets.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: stickbuck on November 25, 2020, 09:24:18 PM
Oh man! That’s a big track in the 2nd pic. Definitely makes you wonder.


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Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: PolarBear on November 25, 2020, 09:39:28 PM
We have seen wolf sign in Boistfort, Pe Ell South and Vail.  I know several loggers who have seen wolves out of Pe Ell.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: SWHUNTER on November 25, 2020, 09:41:39 PM
They are here. A friend saw 2 of them during late buck season. I saw 3 sets tracks last winter.
Others have pics and stories. It sucks but is the reality.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Bob33 on November 25, 2020, 10:00:16 PM
https://wdfw.wa.gov/species-habitats/at-risk/species-recovery/gray-wolf/observations (https://wdfw.wa.gov/species-habitats/at-risk/species-recovery/gray-wolf/observations)
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on November 25, 2020, 10:43:50 PM
We have seen wolf sign in Boistfort, Pe Ell South and Vail.  I know several loggers who have seen wolves out of Pe Ell.

Oh not this again...
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on November 25, 2020, 10:44:59 PM
They are here. A friend saw 2 of them during late buck season. I saw 3 sets tracks last winter.
Others have pics and stories. It sucks but is the reality.

What general area?
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: ne kid on November 25, 2020, 10:47:33 PM
They are probably just unemployed Seattle police dogs.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Caseyd on November 25, 2020, 10:57:03 PM
Nails look trimmed in 2nd pic
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on November 25, 2020, 11:11:53 PM
Nails look trimmed in 2nd pic
:chuckle: :dunno:

Ya don’t let your lab out, god forbid it’ll be a wolf track!! Haha
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: optic2 on November 26, 2020, 02:37:58 AM
https://wdfw.wa.gov/species-habitats/at-risk/species-recovery/gray-wolf/observations (https://wdfw.wa.gov/species-habitats/at-risk/species-recovery/gray-wolf/observations)

That doesn't seem very accurate. Zoom into the city of Seattle and there you will see sightings on the map. I think we can all agree there aren't any wolves running around in the Seattle city limits. If you read through the notes one of them even says it was a coyote.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Russ McDonald on November 26, 2020, 04:54:17 AM
There was a wolf hit just east of North Bend on I90 a couple years back.  If you do a search there are also some game cam pics from around  North Bend of a wolf. The one hit on I 90 was a confirmed wolf.

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Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: grundy53 on November 26, 2020, 06:17:28 AM
Their are people I know that swear there are wolves in the Willapa hills. There have been rumored sightings. These are locals that spend a lot of time in the woods. I'm still sceptical. It would be awful if true.

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Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: SWHUNTER on November 26, 2020, 07:20:18 AM
They are here. A friend saw 2 of them during late buck season. I saw 3 sets tracks last winter.
Others have pics and stories. It sucks but is the reality.

What general area?
Darrington area
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Southpole on November 26, 2020, 08:48:25 AM
They are here. A friend saw 2 of them during late buck season. I saw 3 sets tracks last winter.
Others have pics and stories. It sucks but is the reality.

What general area?
Darrington area

 :yeah:  they've also been in the Skagit/whatcom areas for years. I think the state is pretty much covered by now.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: boneaddict on November 26, 2020, 09:05:03 AM
I think down town Olympia needs a few.   
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Pegasus on November 26, 2020, 09:06:11 AM
Beware because the wolves in western Washington are wolves in sheep's clothing...
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: 3nails on November 26, 2020, 09:16:38 AM
 There's at least one pack in Whatcom/Skagit. No idea why the state won't recognize them.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: ThomMedic on November 27, 2020, 11:53:41 AM
I wonder if many of the wolf sightings are of Wolf/Shepherd mix. I saw one once on JBLM housing area, beautiful large animal with shepard markings and wolf like face and body. Later I learned there are hobbyist in Pierce county that raise and breed hybrids. I guess this raises a lot of questions such as what if they are interbreeding with real wolves. How would a hunter be able to recognize such an animal in the wild when the WDFW doesn't document that wolves are in that area, then it must be a coyote, legal to shoot?
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: HighlandLofts on November 30, 2020, 02:47:51 AM
There are some in the Sedro-Wooley area.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Skyvalhunter on November 30, 2020, 05:19:44 AM
So whats the concern by the OP? We have been thru this before.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Southpole on November 30, 2020, 07:38:11 AM
So whats the concern by the OP? We have been thru this before.
:yeah:
Not to be harsh but wolves in western Washington is kinda old news.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Special T on November 30, 2020, 09:10:02 AM
They are here. A friend saw 2 of them during late buck season. I saw 3 sets tracks last winter.
Others have pics and stories. It sucks but is the reality.

What general area?
Darrington area

 :yeah:  they've also been in the Skagit/whatcom areas for years. I think the state is pretty much covered by now.

USFW has a documented pack in the area East between Rockport and Darrington. Wolves have been seen in this area, and many loggers have seen them N to the boarder. Additionally Tracts and pictures of a pack of wolves on the Nooksack were taken by a member on here. Sadly those pics can no longer be found on this site. Ive looked several times.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on December 01, 2020, 08:45:42 PM

Just trying to figure out what those tracks are.   If there are wolves I'm sure there is probably some game cam footage.
So whats the concern by the OP? We have been thru this before.
:yeah:
No to be harsh but wolves in western Washington is kinda old news.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: fowl smacker on December 01, 2020, 09:18:49 PM
I know for a FACT that 2 wolves have been seen in Willapa Hills, 4 years ago.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: bracer40 on December 01, 2020, 09:39:47 PM
I think down town Olympia needs a few.

 :yeah:
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: wolfbait on December 02, 2020, 04:21:14 PM
They are here. A friend saw 2 of them during late buck season. I saw 3 sets tracks last winter.
Others have pics and stories. It sucks but is the reality.

What general area?
Darrington area

 :yeah:  they've also been in the Skagit/whatcom areas for years. I think the state is pretty much covered by now.

USFW has a documented pack in the area East between Rockport and Darrington. Wolves have been seen in this area, and many loggers have seen them N to the boarder. Additionally Tracts and pictures of a pack of wolves on the Nooksack were taken by a member on here. Sadly those pics can no longer be found on this site. Ive looked several times.


Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Special T on December 02, 2020, 04:23:42 PM
They are here. A friend saw 2 of them during late buck season. I saw 3 sets tracks last winter.
Others have pics and stories. It sucks but is the reality.

What general area?
Darrington area

 :yeah:  they've also been in the Skagit/whatcom areas for years. I think the state is pretty much covered by now.

USFW has a documented pack in the area East between Rockport and Darrington. Wolves have been seen in this area, and many loggers have seen them N to the boarder. Additionally Tracts and pictures of a pack of wolves on the Nooksack were taken by a member on here. Sadly those pics can no longer be found on this site. Ive looked several times.

Im saving that pic! did you find it on the site or save it on your computer? I know the guy that took that pic!
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: wolfbait on December 02, 2020, 05:28:46 PM
They are here. A friend saw 2 of them during late buck season. I saw 3 sets tracks last winter.
Others have pics and stories. It sucks but is the reality.

What general area?
Darrington area

 :yeah:  they've also been in the Skagit/whatcom areas for years. I think the state is pretty much covered by now.

USFW has a documented pack in the area East between Rockport and Darrington. Wolves have been seen in this area, and many loggers have seen them N to the boarder. Additionally Tracts and pictures of a pack of wolves on the Nooksack were taken by a member on here. Sadly those pics can no longer be found on this site. Ive looked several times.

Im saving that pic! did you find it on the site or save it on your computer? I know the guy that took that pic!

I have a wolf encyclopedia on external hard drives, years of info.... ;)
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: RC3 on December 02, 2020, 05:46:25 PM
There are a lot of big coyotes on the west side I think lol!
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Demoguy33 on April 05, 2021, 08:59:11 AM
We have seen wolf sign in Boistfort, Pe Ell South and Vail.  I know several loggers who have seen wolves out of Pe Ell.

I have seen one Wolf in the Boistfort Valley,  friends of mine that live out there have also seen them!
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Tball77 on May 19, 2021, 07:15:12 PM
We seen 3 in the Fall River unit 4 years ago in November elk hunting and 2 the following year a mile from where we had seen them prior.  Off the P&E mainline
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Southpole on May 19, 2021, 07:39:23 PM
Where is the Fall River unit?
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Tball77 on May 19, 2021, 07:57:22 PM
It’s west of pe ell about 12 miles near Lebam.  North side of the highway
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: BA Mongor on May 19, 2021, 08:13:34 PM
For what it's worth, with all the snow this year it was great to get back into areas where no one was. One of the areas I go into is the north east side of Elochoman Lake.

I know what I saw, and it took me just seconds to know what they (2) were. There are no houses for miles and miles, and if I would have been a better shot, I would have had one of the largest coyotes ever!

I went back in the following weekend, and found where they came out of the drainage, but it was just to far to keep going in the snow, and they were more than likely long gone.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: haftard on May 20, 2021, 08:01:27 PM
ive herd of them near saint hellens. but knowing how far a single wolf can rang its no shocker to see them all over the state. a wolf you see on mt baker in the spring could be the same dog i see on st hellens in the summer/fall.

but then again and jack waggon with a subaru and a few hundred bucks can introduce a wolf back into an area.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: kentrek on May 20, 2021, 09:06:03 PM
Still waiting on proof of western WA wolves...everyone has seen them except me & the bios that look for them...I fall over backwards and find them in Idaho...but in western WA they are like a mythical creature...I'm starting to think it's because they are

Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Special T on May 20, 2021, 09:12:53 PM
Still waiting on proof of western WA wolves...everyone has seen them except me & the bios that look for them...I fall over backwards and find them in Idaho...but in western WA they are like a mythical creature...I'm starting to think it's because they are
Ive seen them just outside Sedro Woolley. One of my archery Club members post pics of a pack on the Nooksack.  Both well before the USFWS  documented the pack north of Darrington.  My mom and wife have seen a wolf up at lake Cavanaugh  and ive posted about it.


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Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: haftard on May 20, 2021, 09:15:44 PM
they probaly wont say anything about the wolves found in the nooksack cuz they are not resident/no pups/ no females. not that far for a damn canadian wolf to wonder
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: bornhunter on May 20, 2021, 09:29:16 PM
We have seen wolf sign in Boistfort, Pe Ell South and Vail.  I know several loggers who have seen wolves out of Pe Ell.

Oh not this again...


 :yeah:
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Special T on May 20, 2021, 11:03:06 PM
they probaly wont say anything about the wolves found in the nooksack cuz they are not resident/no pups/ no females. not that far for a damn canadian wolf to wonder
Except the photo that was posted on here had like 6-8 wolves on a gravel bar.

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Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: duckmen1 on May 20, 2021, 11:30:58 PM
Still waiting on proof of western WA wolves...everyone has seen them except me & the bios that look for them...I fall over backwards and find them in Idaho...but in western WA they are like a mythical creature...I'm starting to think it's because they are

Its like the wild hogs. Lol
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: hunter399 on May 21, 2021, 04:23:47 AM
Still waiting on proof of western WA wolves...everyone has seen them except me & the bios that look for them...I fall over backwards and find them in Idaho...but in western WA they are like a mythical creature...I'm starting to think it's because they are

Its like the wild hogs. Lol

Even if any wolf was confirmed anywhere in the state.
WDFW will just blame "habitat" for all the missing deer,elk.
Just like they do here on the east side.
Polictal trash boat.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Southpole on May 21, 2021, 07:01:16 AM
I think the member skagitsteel had trail cam pictures of wolves out of the mt. Baker area. Seen lots of tracks up the Suattle river rd. Just because a guy hasn’t personally seen them doesn’t mean they’re not around. The terrain, foliage and gated access in western Washington doesn’t exactly make things any easier to spot critters.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Tbar on May 21, 2021, 07:46:14 AM
they probaly wont say anything about the wolves found in the nooksack cuz they are not resident/no pups/ no females. not that far for a damn canadian wolf to wonder
:dunno:
It's a confirmed pack.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: cem3434 on May 21, 2021, 07:46:58 AM
Still waiting on proof of western WA wolves...everyone has seen them except me & the bios that look for them...I fall over backwards and find them in Idaho...but in western WA they are like a mythical creature...I'm starting to think it's because they are

I'd suggest less time behind the keyboard and more time in the woods if you want to see the elusive western Washington wolf. Like other have stated they can cover a huge area, so to think they aren't in western Washington is just crazy. I know what I've seen and if the state doesn't want tor recognize them, well I'm eventually going to get me a B&C coyote. There are way more wolves and breeding pairs than any of the bios will admit, covering a lot more areas than they lead people to believe.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Ironhead on May 21, 2021, 08:01:40 AM
They didnt want to recognize in the Okanogan or the Blues either.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Taco280AI on May 21, 2021, 08:10:28 AM
If they say they're aren't wolves, or very few of them, then that's the truth. The gov and WDFW would never lie to or mislead the public. Y'all are just a bunch of conspiracy theorists  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: kentrek on May 21, 2021, 08:23:38 AM
It's zero skin off my back if you guys want to believe there is wolf packs all over western WA

They just don't leave tracks, eat elk in the winter range or howl....oh and they also must love coyotes too  :rolleyes:


I'm confident in what I'm saying because of the time I put in and the experience I have in multiple states that are infested with wolves over the last decade
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Southpole on May 21, 2021, 08:46:03 AM
I don’t think there’s an infestation of wolves in ww, but they are here.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Special T on May 21, 2021, 09:37:51 AM
I think one of thenreasons why you dont see them as often in WW is the terrain.  EW is more open, combined with the fact that they are a sight hunter you see them more.

I know people that have seen lots of wolves in the area North of the Skagit River over the last 20. They prefer not to talk to very many folks about it.

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Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: PolarBear on May 21, 2021, 09:48:20 AM
It's zero skin off my back if you guys want to believe there is wolf packs all over western WA

They just don't leave tracks, eat elk in the winter range or howl....oh and they also must love coyotes too  :rolleyes:


I'm confident in what I'm saying because of the time I put in and the experience I have in multiple states that are infested with wolves over the last decade
:chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: acrim on May 21, 2021, 11:55:59 AM
Diobsud pack male , never did get a picture of the female. Pack seems to have moved to better hunting grounds.  Wet side might not be as condusive to healthy wolves...
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: BA Mongor on May 21, 2021, 04:23:08 PM
That's a very cool pic of a black your !!!
LOL
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Mudman on May 21, 2021, 04:49:49 PM
Clearwater forest is closest to W Wa habitat I can think of with wolves all over.  I agree Kentrek wetside isnt best habitat for wolves but I think they will thrive in certain areas once established, for limited time.  I also believe they have huge ranges and are and do spend some time west of the divide.   But lets face it with cougars n bears the food isnt exactly plentifull for wolves either!
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: kentrek on May 21, 2021, 05:10:00 PM
I'm kind of wondering if it's strictly a people thing in western WA

There is alot of places very similar to western WA that wolves live in so thats not the problem...time to establish isn't the problem either because they are in such close proximity for a long time now

West WA has very few big tracts of land that arnt riddled with trails and people...the wolves coming here are not like the wolves introduced into Idaho that got unhunted for many years...so maybe that's a factor...idk what it is but il be up watching the calving areas and photographing bears this spring/summer so will let you guys know if I see any wolf packs...I can get high Def video and it will be on the front page news if I ever do
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: cem3434 on May 22, 2021, 07:24:13 AM
Yeah, it looks like they are content on staying in their "home" range and only hunt the ungulates they are accustomed to killing.  :chuckle: 

https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php?topic=99133.0

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/washington-wolf-killed-in-montana-after-1100-km-journey-across-idaho-b-c

if you don't think there are wolves west of the Cascades, then you have to be ignorant and not understand wolves at all. It's not like the NE corner, but there are more wolves dispersed across the state than WDFW want you to believe there are.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: idaho guy on May 22, 2021, 08:50:38 AM
Yeah, it looks like they are content on staying in their "home" range and only hunt the ungulates they are accustomed to killing.  :chuckle: 

https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php?topic=99133.0

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/washington-wolf-killed-in-montana-after-1100-km-journey-across-idaho-b-c

if you don't think there are wolves west of the Cascades, then you have to be ignorant and not understand wolves at all. It's not like the NE corner, but there are more wolves dispersed across the state than WDFW want you to believe there are.  :twocents:
 

 :yeah: Wolves can have a huge range. I don’t know western Washington very well but assume it would be more like se Alaska? Se Alaska has plenty of wolves the habitat difference shouldn’t affect wolf pop at all. Main difference I think is the dense forest just makes them harder to see so people “feel” like there is not a lot of or any wolves. The only reason they won’t stay in an area is when most of deer and elk are gone. You can’t have the numbers of wolves in north Idaho and eastern Washington that are documented and not have at least some wolves in western Washington. even if they don’t stay long they have to be there I think.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: JimmyHoffa on May 22, 2021, 08:59:53 AM
I'm kind of wondering if it's strictly a people thing in western WA

There is alot of places very similar to western WA that wolves live in so thats not the problem...time to establish isn't the problem either because they are in such close proximity for a long time now

West WA has very few big tracts of land that arnt riddled with trails and people...the wolves coming here are not like the wolves introduced into Idaho that got unhunted for many years...so maybe that's a factor...idk what it is but il be up watching the calving areas and photographing bears this spring/summer so will let you guys know if I see any wolf packs...I can get high Def video and it will be on the front page news if I ever do
Oregon has a similar situation.  Lots in the east, but seems only a few wanted to go west.  They had a pack set up in the SW that goes into northern CA, but the wolves didn't really start pouring into the coastal areas.  Or if they have then they're going undetected or being covered up.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: boneaddict on May 22, 2021, 09:54:03 AM
Wolves sight hunt a lot.   They prefer open to see prey.   One of the reasons they are so hard on mule deer in the high country.   If you spend much time in the high country you’ll note how animals are adapting.  They are very efficient at running down prey in the open country.   
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on May 22, 2021, 10:38:01 AM
For those that don't visit the west side,  there is lots of open terrain in the timber company lands.   Seems like the last 8 years the timber Co has cut every tree on their properties.   The wolf I saw near coville was in a cut,  very similar to where I saw the questionable tracks in the willapa.  There were no human tracks on this walk in road and it was quite soft,  would have revealed some human presence.   I'm still not 100% sure the track was a wolf as I had seen escaped huskies in the Ryderwood a few years earlier,  12 miles in from the nearest house.   I'm just really curious if anyone has photos of wolves in w.wa.  Also,  plenty of blacktail and elk to eat,  so it wouldn't surprise me that some make their way over following game.   We know for certain they are in the little naches,  the bumping, the teanaway.   
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: idaho guy on May 22, 2021, 01:18:55 PM
I called in a pack of 8 in southeast Alaska and was able to shoot one. That’s about as dense rainforest type habitat out there. You see sign of wolves there but for me never a wolf except rarely on a beach.we called that pack onto a beach and heard them howling long before we saw them.  There is a lot of wolves in se Alaska and I can’t think of any reason they wouldn’t also thrive in western Washington. Again I am not familiar with western Washington but assuming it’s a lot like se ak with all the rain. Interesting discussion but I’m thinking 100 percent there is more wolves western Washington than people think.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: Mudman on May 22, 2021, 02:54:35 PM
Its simple....  If Wetside was preferable to wolves it would only take few days for em to get on over here.  We would be seeing em all over.  Its not their 1st choice of habitat.  I not saying they arent some here and more popping up as of course that is the end result of Wa idiotic experiments.  East side is where they like until they run out territory or food.  Either way it ends bad for us, animals and the wolf.
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: boneaddict on May 22, 2021, 05:40:53 PM
 :yeah: zactly!
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: 85yota on May 24, 2021, 08:40:53 PM
Is it possible that the wolves who end up west find minimal sign of other wolves and they end up dying or going back? I would bet a lot of money I saw a wolf around 2015 between hwy 2 and 90, but from a purely biological stand point heres my question.. Idaho and eastern WA theres enough packs everywhere that wolves can branch out and breed/ hunt with other wolves..if a wolf ends up in lets say around the quinalt and runs around sees no friends and struggles it would end up a goner or travel back" shrug".. We all know there here but i guess what im saying is it might take longer than we think for whole herds to migrate this way.. And at that point were in trouble especially south of 90 with more ell rich areas?
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: 85yota on May 24, 2021, 08:49:58 PM
To clarify im referring to a lack of "packs" on this side. Not sure.how much harder this side of the mtns would be to thrive but Steve isdahl mentions logging roads and clear cuts in a manor that seems like it helps wolves thrive.. I was just wondering if its just a time frame thing when a branch of the teanaway pack crosses over as does a pack by yakima and than from there they breed together and out..its been a few years but rumours out of Duvall seemed fairly certain a few were running around near there
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: NRA4LIFE on May 24, 2021, 08:52:40 PM
According to the nice lady who wrote the article in the Sunday Seattle paper (i.e. firestarter) there are no confirmed wolves south of I90 or in western WA, except maybe Diabsbud. 
Title: Re: Western Washington wolves
Post by: huntnfmly on May 25, 2021, 06:18:02 AM
I seen one inside the Howard Johnson dam area outside of carbanado 5 yrs ago
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