Post by: jackelope on February 12, 2021, 10:37:54 AM
https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2021-02/ots-28751_0.pdf
1 less Naches Pass tag. 1 less Bumping River tag. 1 less Goat Rocks West tag. The Goat Rocks one is the one that makes zero sense to me at all. There are tons of goats there. I'm not the most educated goat guy on the planet, so maybe there's something I'm missing.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210212/b5e042410a01a6745a0add8e3164011b.jpg)
Also I noticed the proposal mentions "who may apply." The way I read this is if you've killed a goat here in WA, you're done. Even if it was a raffle or auction tag. This has never been the case before, and there is no proposed change to the other OIL species in this regard....so why mountain goat?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210212/7bd436a4d95c13e5130d0e9e2ec3d06e.jpg)
I have no dog in this fight in terms of tags for me. I've already got mine. Just trying to see the logic in these changes.
@Bushcraft
Post by: Stein on February 12, 2021, 10:41:28 AM
When they make cuts in tags that will end up in noticeable less revenue, that's when you know they are serious. This is isn't that case, still plenty of $13 opportunities to sell.
Post by: jackelope on February 12, 2021, 10:41:51 AM
https://publicinput.com/R7743
Post by: jackelope on February 12, 2021, 10:42:35 AM
Hard to say, tinfoil hat me says it might be something to be doing something to use in a presentation to a certain audience somewhere of examples of the department actively managing and cutting back on hunting.
When they make cuts in tags that will end up in noticeable less revenue, that's when you know they are serious. This is isn't that case, still plenty of $13 opportunities to sell.
Those 3 tags are $1000 a year.
Chump change maybe in the grand scheme of things.
Post by: Houndhunter on February 12, 2021, 10:46:14 AM
Post by: Tbar on February 12, 2021, 10:46:24 AM
Post by: fishngamereaper on February 12, 2021, 10:47:53 AM
The way I read the second part is you can still apply if you've had a conflict, raffle or auction tag. Maybe Im seeing it different.
The head scratcher is it doesn't appear the transplanted goats from the olympics are going to have any affect on opportunities in the cascades...
Post by: Tbar on February 12, 2021, 10:50:08 AM
Post by: jackelope on February 12, 2021, 10:53:01 AM
Isn't it just cleaning up the language? In the underlined portion it states the restrictions are waived. Looks like a reduction in redundant language.
I may be reading it wrong, but I think the new proposal says that if you've killed a goat with a raffle or auction tag, you will no longer be able to apply for a normal OIL goat permit moving forward. That's never been the case before. Your special permit is your OIL and having a raffle or auction tag had no bearing on whether or not you can apply for the "normal" OIL permits. The language has not changed with moose or sheep auction/raffle tags.
Post by: jackelope on February 12, 2021, 10:53:19 AM
Still an exclusive on blazed ridge as well? :dunno:
Yeah...I was wondering if that was going to change.
Post by: fishngamereaper on February 12, 2021, 10:53:29 AM
Still an exclusive on blazed ridge as well? :dunno:
That's the tag I always used to want....
Still do if they ever offer it again...no reason not to have a couple tags in there.
Post by: Stein on February 12, 2021, 10:53:39 AM
If you look at what happens across the board with big game, they almost never go to 0 tags for anything in an area because that would mean a big loss in permit applications.
They will fight for stuff like spring bear because it's a significant revenue stream that was under attack - proposals to shut it down would be significant revenue loss.
Other fights or problems like tags dropping 75% aren't addressed because it it's revenue neutral to the department and not a cute animal, same number of people buying the special permit applications and they already bought their deer or elk tag.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on February 12, 2021, 10:57:13 AM
The tag reduction make no sense. I know naches could handle at least 4-5 tags, same with goat rock's/ east and west.Probably some study requirement that has to be met first. I haven't heard of one, but wouldn't be surprised if there is some bio or grad students that have something going on that will follow the goats over a specified number of years.
The way I read the second part is you can still apply if you've had a conflict, raffle or auction tag. Maybe Im seeing it different.
The head scratcher is it doesn't appear the transplanted goats from the olympics are going to have any affect on opportunities in the cascades...
Post by: storyteller on February 12, 2021, 11:11:58 AM
Post by: Moe the Sleaze on February 12, 2021, 11:27:39 AM
Post by: Tbar on February 12, 2021, 11:35:59 AM
Without being able to get too specific, I do remember seeing a couple of studies over the last couple of years where WDFW biologists have discovered that goat populations are VERY susceptible to over-hunting, (ie slow to recover after any sort of harvest) because of low reproductive rates. Based on their reports, the tag reductions are not a surprise to me. Do I agree with them, no. I'm a climber and I see goats all the time. For example, why they don't have multiple tags for the Enchantments is beyond reason IMO.
Did it specifically say over hunting? Or predation? It's very frustrating to see that language used in the current scheme, in years past when they managed similar to deer it was fitting. The current human caused mortality pales in comparison to other factors that influence population dynamics. And yes they have low reproduction rates. :bash: :dunno:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 12, 2021, 11:46:24 AM
Post by: Mtnwalker on February 12, 2021, 11:47:31 AM
Post by: Moe the Sleaze on February 12, 2021, 11:56:17 AM
Without being able to get too specific, I do remember seeing a couple of studies over the last couple of years where WDFW biologists have discovered that goat populations are VERY susceptible to over-hunting, (ie slow to recover after any sort of harvest) because of low reproductive rates. Based on their reports, the tag reductions are not a surprise to me. Do I agree with them, no. I'm a climber and I see goats all the time. For example, why they don't have multiple tags for the Enchantments is beyond reason IMO.
Did it specifically say over hunting? Or predation? It's very frustrating to see that language used in the current scheme, in years past when they managed similar to deer it was fitting. The current human caused mortality pales in comparison to other factors that influence population dynamics. And yes they have low reproduction rates. :bash: :dunno:
I don't remember any mention of predation. I definitely remember the phrase "susceptible to over-hunting".
Post by: Tbar on February 12, 2021, 12:01:50 PM
I would be curious to know if that was a historic reference or referring to the current harvest levels. Historically over hunting decimated populations, but the tag numbers were several hundred statewide. Right now a single cat will likely kill more than the statewide allocation.Without being able to get too specific, I do remember seeing a couple of studies over the last couple of years where WDFW biologists have discovered that goat populations are VERY susceptible to over-hunting, (ie slow to recover after any sort of harvest) because of low reproductive rates. Based on their reports, the tag reductions are not a surprise to me. Do I agree with them, no. I'm a climber and I see goats all the time. For example, why they don't have multiple tags for the Enchantments is beyond reason IMO.
Did it specifically say over hunting? Or predation? It's very frustrating to see that language used in the current scheme, in years past when they managed similar to deer it was fitting. The current human caused mortality pales in comparison to other factors that influence population dynamics. And yes they have low reproduction rates. :bash: :dunno:
I don't remember any mention of predation. I definitely remember the phrase "susceptible to over-hunting".
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on February 12, 2021, 12:12:35 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 12, 2021, 12:18:14 PM
Post by: Mtnwalker on February 12, 2021, 12:32:43 PM
Per WDFW Mountain goat populations have declined overall in Washington relative to estimated historical levels. Goat populations within the state were considered to have exceeded 10,000 animals (including those within federally-managed areas) as recently as 1961. As of 2008, our best estimate of the mountain goat population is the 2,400 to 3,200 range. Of these, about 450 live primarily within national parks..
I'd guess there's a pretty strong correlation between that timeline and certain predator control methods that are no longer employed
Post by: Platensek-po on February 12, 2021, 01:34:03 PM
Interesting facts in this link. Has info on all the states but some interesting stuff on mortality in wa and other states
Post by: MtnMuley on February 12, 2021, 02:07:04 PM
Also, what would possibly be the reasoning on not allowing an auction or raffle winner to ever be able to hunt goats again here once they've killed one? I thought these auction and raffles tags were about bringing money in and not dictating who can and can't play?
Post by: Naches Sportsman on February 12, 2021, 02:20:47 PM
Does anybody on here believe that there is even a bio at WDFW capable of honestly knowing the true goat populations in specific GMUs here? I know of a few places they have absolutely no clue on how many goats actually exist there.
I've tried to start conversations with some about areas the goats winter in and they were dumbfounded when I said i saw goats in certain places.
I'd sure love to see their reasoning and field going methods they used for the proposed changes behind the decrease of tags if they have any!
Post by: Stein on February 12, 2021, 02:26:12 PM
Maybe someone has more ambition. Maybe if enough people did it they would be more transparent and communicative about things.
Post by: brocka on February 12, 2021, 02:27:11 PM
Post by: Crunchy on February 12, 2021, 02:31:40 PM
Post by: Naches Sportsman on February 12, 2021, 02:40:44 PM
I can only comment (and did on the survey) on the Bumping River unit. Spending a week in there with a bull tag a few years ago, I couldn't believe how many goats were back in there. I saw more goats than bulls, that is for sure. I doubt anyone is in there counting those goats? And I doubt anyone is going in and hunting those goats. Especially when you can get one from 410...I counted 79 in two areas the other day.... Just a fraction of what is in North end of the unit.
Post by: greenhead_killer on February 12, 2021, 02:55:01 PM
this was my thought as well. odd how many species have been on the decline since that garbage passed. its almost like the wdfw planned it that way.Per WDFW Mountain goat populations have declined overall in Washington relative to estimated historical levels. Goat populations within the state were considered to have exceeded 10,000 animals (including those within federally-managed areas) as recently as 1961. As of 2008, our best estimate of the mountain goat population is the 2,400 to 3,200 range. Of these, about 450 live primarily within national parks..
I'd guess there's a pretty strong correlation between that timeline and certain predator control methods that are no longer employed
Post by: sagemd on February 12, 2021, 03:54:11 PM
Well I personally wouldn't want to have goat hunting in the Enchantments. Those goats are so tame and there is absolutely way too many people there. I think they need to relocate some of them to an area where they can be hunted. Back in the Early 2000's I believe the some of the goat population had some virus or worm I forget what it was. I think the could have put medication on or in a salt block and stopped it but they never did. Have you ever seen them group up in the fall when its breeding time? I saw 25 goats in the GPW in one 100 yard area.Tame goats need to be hunted. Tame mountain goats is what lead to the death of a hiker in the Olympics.
To many hikers in over populated goat habitat is not healthy for goats.
What does the amount for people in an area have to do with goat hunting. Hunting is a very safe management tool.
Relocation is very expense.
It is paid for by hunters/license and tag sales. Increasing tag sale (permits in the Enchantments) increases funds for relocation.
Virus or worm ? When you figure it out!! But yes goats have been and are mismanaged in Washington.
Goats breed in late November. Not in the fall. A group of 25 is not uncommon, spring, summer or fall.
Post by: fishngamereaper on February 12, 2021, 04:15:53 PM
I'll take a kachess ridge tag please... :tup:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 12, 2021, 05:01:07 PM
The problem with hunting in the Enchantments is when you have literally 100's of hikers,trail runners, going thru the area it is not conducive or even good for public relations to send goat hunters up there to shoot animals. When goats are 10 feet away from people it is not ideal circumstances for a hunt. Us as hunters have to know when be respectful of other recreation users. When it comes to getting what we want bad public relations don't help. It reminds me of the bear hunter that shot the bear on MT So trail and left it for an extended amount of time. That got so much bad PR it hurts our cause when we want to keep things like spring bear hunts. :twocents:Well I personally wouldn't want to have goat hunting in the Enchantments. Those goats are so tame and there is absolutely way too many people there. I think they need to relocate some of them to an area where they can be hunted. Back in the Early 2000's I believe the some of the goat population had some virus or worm I forget what it was. I think the could have put medication on or in a salt block and stopped it but they never did. Have you ever seen them group up in the fall when its breeding time? I saw 25 goats in the GPW in one 100 yard area.Tame goats need to be hunted. Tame mountain goats is what lead to the death of a hiker in the Olympics.
To many hikers in over populated goat habitat is not healthy for goats.
What does the amount for people in an area have to do with goat hunting. Hunting is a very safe management tool.
Relocation is very expense.
It is paid for by hunters/license and tag sales. Increasing tag sale (permits in the Enchantments) increases funds for relocation.
Virus or worm ? When you figure it out!! But yes goats have been and are mismanaged in Washington.
Goats breed in late November. Not in the fall. A group of 25 is not uncommon, spring, summer or fall.
Post by: jackelope on February 12, 2021, 05:32:20 PM
Does anybody on here believe that there is even a bio at WDFW capable of honestly knowing the true goat populations in specific GMUs here? I know of a few places they have absolutely no clue on how many goats actually exist there.
In 2017 when I had my tag I did some asking. This was before the goat rocks was split into 2 different units. This is some of what I got.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210213/cb08e5a618b121e916ce9348b5f0def2.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210213/0457d3e6fdb5d24f6d3144e6bf81e619.jpg)
This past fall I helped a guy on the east side of the goat rocks fill his tag. Got some really great intel from folks on here and we killed a 7.5 year old billy in an area that the biologist told me, in 2017, that nobody had ever killed one in to the best of his knowledge. It took us a 4 hour round trip hike one day to find the group of billies and another day to kill one of them because of where they were. That first day we saw 10 goats on the one hike in. I guess what I’m saying is that it was pretty easy to find and kill a billy in in an area that nobody had ever done it before in.
:dunno:
I’m sure I saw 100 goats on one scouting trip in one day in the rocks in 2017. It’s hard for me to believe we need reduced tags 4 years later.
Post by: rougheye on February 12, 2021, 05:42:27 PM
Post by: Widgeondeke on February 12, 2021, 05:49:07 PM
:yike: :yike:
Post by: trophyhunt on February 12, 2021, 05:57:30 PM
Post by: Bill W on February 12, 2021, 06:12:45 PM
Post by: Bob33 on February 12, 2021, 06:13:09 PM
Post by: storyteller on February 12, 2021, 06:27:12 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 12, 2021, 06:34:55 PM
Post by: Limhangerslayer on February 12, 2021, 06:41:20 PM
Post by: jackelope on February 12, 2021, 06:41:52 PM
Josh, does your post say they counted 1 goat on castle mnt?
Yes. That’s what it says. That’s a screenshot of an email from a WDFW biologist.
Post by: trophyhunt on February 12, 2021, 06:46:23 PM
The good old days. ;)Your the one who got my 1969 hunting regs!!!!!’ Lol, I tried to buy those. You see the bear limits back then?? No limit for bear on the west side, 1 bear on the east, crazy!
Post by: trophyhunt on February 12, 2021, 06:47:35 PM
wow! Do they really think we believe that????Josh, does your post say they counted 1 goat on castle mnt?
Yes. That’s what it says. That’s a screenshot of an email from a WDFW biologist.
Post by: fishngamereaper on February 12, 2021, 06:50:17 PM
Post by: DeerThug on February 12, 2021, 07:42:03 PM
I know when I had my tag there were so many goats it was unreal. Tons of nannies and kids so from my observation reproduction was not an issue. I know I kept notes on the numbers seen and sent it in with my report. Could be that if they only have one hunter sending in notes on what was seen then they think there are few goats.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Richard_Harris25
There is an paper here by Harris on the negative effects of trophy hunting.
I too think that this is a crock when it comes to tag numbers for goats. We can comment as I did but will do little good....
Post by: fishngamereaper on February 12, 2021, 07:47:24 PM
Chance of drawing anything in an oil category is so slim and getting worse, it might be time for a little financial protest.
Post by: jackelope on February 12, 2021, 08:03:40 PM
Post by: sagemd on February 12, 2021, 08:07:40 PM
Hunting goats in heavy used back country should not be a problem. It is done every year in Colorado.The problem with hunting in the Enchantments is when you have literally 100's of hikers,trail runners, going thru the area it is not conducive or even good for public relations to send goat hunters up there to shoot animals. When goats are 10 feet away from people it is not ideal circumstances for a hunt. Us as hunters have to know when be respectful of other recreation users. When it comes to getting what we want bad public relations don't help. It reminds me of the bear hunter that shot the bear on MT So trail and left it for an extended amount of time. That got so much bad PR it hurts our cause when we want to keep things like spring bear hunts. :twocents:Well I personally wouldn't want to have goat hunting in the Enchantments. Those goats are so tame and there is absolutely way too many people there. I think they need to relocate some of them to an area where they can be hunted. Back in the Early 2000's I believe the some of the goat population had some virus or worm I forget what it was. I think the could have put medication on or in a salt block and stopped it but they never did. Have you ever seen them group up in the fall when its breeding time? I saw 25 goats in the GPW in one 100 yard area.Tame goats need to be hunted. Tame mountain goats is what lead to the death of a hiker in the Olympics.
To many hikers in over populated goat habitat is not healthy for goats.
What does the amount for people in an area have to do with goat hunting. Hunting is a very safe management tool.
Relocation is very expense.
It is paid for by hunters/license and tag sales. Increasing tag sale (permits in the Enchantments) increases funds for relocation.
Virus or worm ? When you figure it out!! But yes goats have been and are mismanaged in Washington.
Goats breed in late November. Not in the fall. A group of 25 is not uncommon, spring, summer or fall.
I have been there and done that. In fact most hunters set a great example and communicate with other user groups. Most reasonable people respond well once they understand. The unreasonable people never will understand. You bring up an example of bad behavior from a hunter, it happens. There are allot of good examples set in the woods and on the mountain every year. Not doing the right thing because some may not set the right example ??
The example of shooting goats ten feet away from people seems silly. There is no reason for that. And is a very negative view. Allowing a goat within ten feet of you (hiker, trail runner or hunter) is foolish and puts yourself and the goat at risk of harm or deaf. That is what happened in the Olympics. Goats should have some fear of humans or humans should not be allowed in the same habitat.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 12, 2021, 08:25:14 PM
Post by: sagemd on February 12, 2021, 08:54:49 PM
It is the same thing as the Olympics, as far as the danger of goats not fearing humans.
As stated goat hunting would be a positive solution to the dangerous behavior of the humans and goats.
Could raise funds for relocation and have a positive public relation into the good hunting provides to other user groups. Hiding what we are so the public doesn't see, only reinforces the incorrect negative views the public may have.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 13, 2021, 05:50:32 AM
Post by: 2MANY on February 13, 2021, 06:54:21 AM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on February 13, 2021, 07:27:32 AM
The good old days. ;)
How many permits for Chopaka Mt. in 1969? I know a father/son team that got theirs around that time.
Post by: brocka on February 13, 2021, 02:52:43 PM
Yep. I bet we had 25 in the basin I was hunting. Lots of nannies and kids, but still, tons of goats.I can only comment (and did on the survey) on the Bumping River unit. Spending a week in there with a bull tag a few years ago, I couldn't believe how many goats were back in there. I saw more goats than bulls, that is for sure. I doubt anyone is in there counting those goats? And I doubt anyone is going in and hunting those goats. Especially when you can get one from 410...I counted 79 in two areas the other day.... Just a fraction of what is in North end of the unit.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: 65supplier on February 14, 2021, 12:52:29 PM
This makes very little sense if you're me.
https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2021-02/ots-28751_0.pdf
1 less Naches Pass tag. 1 less Bumping River tag. 1 less Goat Rocks West tag. The Goat Rocks one is the one that makes zero sense to me at all. There are tons of goats there. I'm not the most educated goat guy on the planet, so maybe there's something I'm missing.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210212/b5e042410a01a6745a0add8e3164011b.jpg)
Also I noticed the proposal mentions "who may apply." The way I read this is if you've killed a goat here in WA, you're done. Even if it was a raffle or auction tag. This has never been the case before, and there is no proposed change to the other OIL species in this regard....so why mountain goat?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210212/7bd436a4d95c13e5130d0e9e2ec3d06e.jpg)
I have no dog in this fight in terms of tags for me. I've already got mine. Just trying to see the logic in these changes.
@Bushcraft
Definitely think the WDFW doesn't have the budget or the resources to accurately determine the correct tag allotment for goat and sheep units. You see it on the Manson sheep unit and countless others across the state, Bio don't know whats truly going on inside the unit, guys like us with boots on the ground really see what happening. Its a bummer they don't listen to the public more
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 14, 2021, 07:27:15 PM
Post by: sagemd on February 16, 2021, 06:05:50 PM
Your entitled to your opinion but it won't happen. When there's little to no chance of getting a camping permit if you even drew a goat permit. This is Wa you have to be realistic.
Yes, you are correct "it won't happen. "This is Wa you have to be realistic." On this we agree.
It won't happen because Washington wildlife, mountain goat especially are miss managed. As well as WDFW's public relations.
This is the whole point of this thread.
Post by: Tbar on February 16, 2021, 06:43:54 PM
How do you see it on the Manson sheep hunt. If you think that the Manson unit can sustain more permits your missing the point. The Manson unit is not a quality unit compared to areas like Chelan Butte due to the fact that the sheep harvested there are not the older age more mature sheep. The state just can't increase the number of permits because the sheep population is high. They also have to manage for larger rams. The biologist do listen to the public as I know of a lot of hunters that have interacted with the biologists. Why do you think you are required to get your sheep pinned by WDFW when it's harvested? Its because the WDFW can see size age, etc and take that into consideration when the number of permits is determined.Several incorrect statements in the above post. They plug sheep because it's the law, period. They could do a much better job than they have done in many years. Age structure within a population absolutely can be manipulated and is not an excuse to limit harvest, it may be a reason for taking an action. There is little attention paid to large populations and considerably less if any to many pocket populations. Mandatory reports help but seldom, especially in goats, provide enough of a sample size to adequately inform species management.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 16, 2021, 07:33:25 PM
Post by: Tbar on February 16, 2021, 08:17:25 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 17, 2021, 05:22:02 AM
Post by: Tbar on February 17, 2021, 07:46:45 AM
From my recollection there was a lot of controversy when the biologist in charge was brought on at wdfw and was touted as an anti-hunter. In looking as some of the papers he has written that seems to be a valid concern. In fact in looking at what he has authored one would have to wonder how he has time to do his actual job. I would bet if someone could go back and see when Harris came on it would track with the timing of reduction in goat tags.Rich no longer works for WDFW. He works in Montana.
I know when I had my tag there were so many goats it was unreal. Tons of nannies and kids so from my observation reproduction was not an issue. I know I kept notes on the numbers seen and sent it in with my report. Could be that if they only have one hunter sending in notes on what was seen then they think there are few goats.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Richard_Harris25
There is an paper here by Harris on the negative effects of trophy hunting.
I too think that this is a crock when it comes to tag numbers for goats. We can comment as I did but will do little good....
Post by: MerriamMagician on February 17, 2021, 05:03:22 PM
Post by: jackelope on February 17, 2021, 05:42:11 PM
From my recollection there was a lot of controversy when the biologist in charge was brought on at wdfw and was touted as an anti-hunter. In looking as some of the papers he has written that seems to be a valid concern. In fact in looking at what he has authored one would have to wonder how he has time to do his actual job. I would bet if someone could go back and see when Harris came on it would track with the timing of reduction in goat tags.Rich no longer works for WDFW. He works in Montana.
I know when I had my tag there were so many goats it was unreal. Tons of nannies and kids so from my observation reproduction was not an issue. I know I kept notes on the numbers seen and sent it in with my report. Could be that if they only have one hunter sending in notes on what was seen then they think there are few goats.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Richard_Harris25
There is an paper here by Harris on the negative effects of trophy hunting.
I too think that this is a crock when it comes to tag numbers for goats. We can comment as I did but will do little good....
"retired" was wrong. My bad.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 17, 2021, 05:44:34 PM
Post by: sagemd on February 17, 2021, 05:52:16 PM
So with limited personnel and funding to do goat studies they are doing the best they can. Unless some university study was done they have to go with science and best estimates. The population can vary a lot if a parasite or other disease is impacted the goat population. So they can't just throw tags out there to pacify some hunters desire to draw a tag. Sure more tags would be nice and generate the state money but I applaud them for not wanting to do that like they did the other species.
"So with limited personnel and funding to do goat studies they are doing the best they can."
They are not doing the best they can do! That is a very lame excuse.
We have discussed before ways WDFW could raise funds for goat studies. (Goat tags in overpopulated areas.)
There are other ways to fund studies if they wanted to. But as you stated " this is Washington not going to happen"
I and many other hunters (not anti-hunters) will donate $ for this.
Post by: fishngamereaper on February 17, 2021, 05:56:37 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 17, 2021, 05:59:43 PM
Post by: sagemd on February 17, 2021, 06:04:31 PM
Well get out there and do it then and quit talking about it. Actions speak louder than words. It does no good to complain about it if you don't do anything to back it up.Skyvalhunter. You get it approved through WDFW.
I'll work with fisgndgamereaper to fund his summer counts.
Post by: jstone on February 17, 2021, 06:09:35 PM
Work together
The ready of the state won’t
Post by: sagemd on February 17, 2021, 06:14:25 PM
I don’t have all summer but I would do a four day weekend and count.!!
Work together
The ready of the state won’t
I'm with you jstone.
I'll give my time counting and raising funds.
If WDFW is willing to take our counts .
But I not think they want to make any changes to the way they do things.
Post by: fishngamereaper on February 17, 2021, 06:16:20 PM
Well get out there and do it then and quit talking about it. Actions speak louder than words. It does no good to complain about it if you don't do anything to back it up.
Oh I have... don't make assumptions...
Unfortunately when some dude not affiliated with wdfw calls the region 3 bio to relay info about game populations, goat, elk etc....the info most often gets round filed...they sure aren't going to use it to determine herd health.
So if they want solid boots on the ground info from guys that know what they are looking for and where to look, they need to think about other ways of doing it, cause right now it's not working.. :twocents:
Post by: fishngamereaper on February 17, 2021, 06:18:59 PM
Post by: sagemd on February 17, 2021, 06:26:15 PM
Well get out there and do it then and quit talking about it. Actions speak louder than words. It does no good to complain about it if you don't do anything to back it up.
Oh I have... don't make assumptions...
Unfortunately when some dude not affiliated with wdfw calls the region 3 bio to relay info about game populations, goat, elk etc....the info most often gets round filed...they sure aren't going to use it to determine herd health.
So if they want solid boots on the ground info from guys that know what they are looking for and where to look, they need to think about other ways of doing it, cause right now it's not working.. :twocents:
:yeah:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 17, 2021, 06:26:23 PM
https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,213936.0.html
Post by: fishngamereaper on February 17, 2021, 06:42:11 PM
A count has been conducted in the past so here's a link to get you started in that direction. Or you could do a public records request of the survey results.
https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,213936.0.html
Im aware of that project. Correct me if I'm wrong but that count was conducted to determine if goat's needed to be removed from the area because of an increase in human conflicts.
When's the last time the States used hunter's to count goat's in current goat zone area's. Or to count goats in old zones, sub zones or area's that could be new zones.
I'm just as interested in helping wdfw manage big game in this State as I am in hunting big game in this state. But the state has to want the and accept the help...not blow people off with real world real time experience.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 17, 2021, 07:27:47 PM
Post by: jackelope on February 17, 2021, 08:02:27 PM
If you contact Allen (Bushcraft) you will see that they have done several of these surveys. I am sure he will be more than willing to help you out as he is associated with SCI who with the guidance of WDFW get volunteers to conduct the surveys.
Pretty sure the goat surveys were done between WDFW and the Rocky Mountain Goat Alliance, also with Bushcraft at the helm. I might be wrong.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 18, 2021, 05:05:46 AM
Post by: jackelope on February 18, 2021, 08:28:43 AM
On July 14-17, 2017, in conjunction with SCI and WDFW, the Rocky Mountain Goat Alliance will once again lead a boots-on-the-ground survey in and around the Enchantments.
Ok. So we’re both right.
Post by: jackelope on February 18, 2021, 08:29:38 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 18, 2021, 08:40:13 AM
Post by: Tbar on February 18, 2021, 08:47:24 AM
So with limited personnel and funding to do goat studies they are doing the best they can. Unless some university study was done they have to go with science and best estimates. The population can vary a lot if a parasite or other disease is impacted the goat population. So they can't just throw tags out there to pacify some hunters desire to draw a tag. Sure more tags would be nice and generate the state money but I applaud them for not wanting to do that like they did the other species.I digress. Your point is made that they are doing a great job. I will politely agree to disagree and exit the conversation.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 18, 2021, 09:07:05 AM
So with limited personnel and funding to do goat studies they are doing the best they can That statement I made in no way insinuates they are doing a great job, Don't read more into it than what was stated.So with limited personnel and funding to do goat studies they are doing the best they can. Unless some university study was done they have to go with science and best estimates. The population can vary a lot if a parasite or other disease is impacted the goat population. So they can't just throw tags out there to pacify some hunters desire to draw a tag. Sure more tags would be nice and generate the state money but I applaud them for not wanting to do that like they did the other species.I digress. Your point is made that they are doing a great job. I will politely agree to disagree and exit the conversation.
Post by: fishngamereaper on February 18, 2021, 09:39:21 AM
The enchantment's study is a different animal as it was focused on overall numbers because of human conflicts, not for season setting. We all know how busy the enchantment's are and its only a matter of time before someone gets killed and those goats meet their fate.
As for funding and personnel. When the NPS/USFS/ WDFW called people answered for the Olympic goat removal program. They had thousands of people interested. It would be safe to say if they also called on people for an accurate population survey people would also answer the call.
How much was spent on removing goats from the Olympics. 500k ish is a number I heard last year. And between hunters and airlift they removed about 400 and change, with a 30 percent mortality rate during relocation. That's a fairly expensive project per goat. I wonder how much they spend on goat surveys in the Cascades. Does WDFW rely on WDFW personnel only. Or do they rely on USFS personnel as well. They both have equal interest in the goat populations since WDFW makes the money and USFS has to provide the habitat in most cases.
I'm ready and willing to assist whenever possible. The one thing I'm not going to do is spend my time and energy doing a survey if the state isn't truly interested in the numbers. :twocents:
Post by: avidnwoutdoorsman on February 18, 2021, 10:29:04 AM
Not only does this provide real data for WDFW but it also is great for comradery. It's the number one recommended thing to do thing for new sheep hunters. (When the boarders open I would go do this again and recommend all sheep enthusiast to join). You go up to the count and you'll likely get paired with someone with years of experience. They will teach you were to look, how to tell gender, how to approximate age/curl. Everything. . You can then take this invaluable experience and go hunt other areas. OR if you have that experience you can take someone under your wing and help them along. In the mean time you've done your part to help with counts and tag allocation.
I say this because sometime public "volunteers" are the best help. I can tell by the passion of several on this thread that if we said, "hey, the first weekend in June we are going to do a goat count here, come join us" that a bunch of people would come out. AND not just hunters but the public too as is the case in this count in BC. It becomes a fun annual event for the family.
I dont have the time, resources, to do this admittedly but I throw it out there as an idea for someone who does or is apart of RMGA.
https://www.wildsheepsociety.com/1545-2/ (https://www.wildsheepsociety.com/1545-2/)
Article for reference, but this is what I see us being able to do for real change and helping with management. And not just for the Goats. :tup:
Post by: jackelope on February 18, 2021, 10:49:54 AM
Post by: sagemd on February 18, 2021, 04:22:51 PM
Then to say they can and have used volunteers.
Is a contradiction.
I appears they are going to cut tag numbers without doing a through boots on the ground count.
Even when they have a tool to do so.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 18, 2021, 04:52:30 PM
Your question to the WDFW should then be why only 4% instead of speculating or guessing a reason.
Post by: jstone on February 18, 2021, 05:15:59 PM
Post by: sagemd on February 18, 2021, 06:51:47 PM
Current permit levels are conservative and represent no more than four percent of mountain goat populations that are surveyed regularly and are stable or increasing. These include herds around Mt. Baker, along the lower Cascade crest, and along the north shore of Lake Chelan.
Your question to the WDFW should then be why only 4% instead of speculating or guessing a reason.
What does "surveyed regularly" mean ? Every year, two years, three years ?
I think most people who know goats in Washington, don't believe WDFW does a good survey.
And I believe most hunters think WDFW does a poor job of public relations.
So my question should be why isn't the WDFW doing a better job of managing mountain goats?
I "remember" might be wrong. (I'm old) WDFW rules are, need to have at less 100 goats in any unit than allow for 4% tags assuming 100% harvest.
So if I'm correct than WDFW have only surveyed 100 goats in each of the goat rock's units as well as all other units issued 1 goat tag ? I've seen 100+ in the goat rock's just hiking the PCT last year.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on February 18, 2021, 07:00:26 PM
What is the best time to count goats.I think summer time, the later part. They move up higher and higher as the snow melts and more food becomes available and they can stay cool laying in the snow on the hotter days. In the winter, they like to go into the trees and eat lichens and moss off the branches that break off from wind and snow.
Post by: sagemd on February 18, 2021, 07:09:59 PM
I agree fishngamereaper.
What is happening in the Enchantment's is what happened in the Olympics.
Goats are being allowed to overpopulate, hiker, trailer runners, horsemen, etc. are being allow to interact with wild animals. Which will only lead to problems for the goats.
People that have been in contact with lamas, horses, goats can/will bring in illness.
Feeding goat leads to nutritional problems.
Goats become aggressive, hurt humans.
When this happens the goats will be shot for helicopters. Or payed hunters on foot.
Goats left to rut/waste.
All at great expense. Very immoral.
WDFW has the ability to work with work with the forest service.
Many opitions.
Issue tags. WDFW
Issue trail use passes. Forest service
Close trails for two weeks
Allow limited and regulated hunting.
It was all done in the Olympics.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 18, 2021, 08:06:55 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 19, 2021, 05:24:21 PM
Hi Keith,
I work as an Ungulate Specialist with WDFW and one of my focal species is mtn. goats. You are correct we provide guidance to our District staff to allocate goat permits for herds with population estimates of >100 adults. We monitor hunted populations with bi-annual sight-ability corrected aerial surveys. Once our population estimates are established we allow harvest rates of 4% or less, which is balance across Special Permits, Auction & Raffle tag and harvest from our Tribal co-managers.
The scientific work behind this management guidance results from research conducted by a former WDFW Research Scientist, Cliff Rice and was published in 2010. Cliff’s work references Hamel’s publication on harvest potential in Alberta.(Both publications attached).
Basically Cliff’s work used a stage-structured matrix model to evaluate harvest rates on a variety of population sizes. This work provided supporting evidence that past harvest rates were likely the cause of population declines in Washington and he investigated appropriate harvest rates suitable to maintain stable or increasing population growth. Some of the information included was:
•Over 4000 historic harvest records tied to 7 Washington populations of various sizes
•Vital rates estimated from multiple populations outside Washington
•Three harvest sex ratio rates (proportion of male harvested, 0.50, 0.75, 0.90)
•Actual harvest sex ratios derived from 72 goats harvested between 2002-2006 = 89% male
His investigation on sustainable harvest rates looked at evaluating the percent harvest on populations for selected outcomes which resulted in ≥50% probability of population stability or increase. Some of the significant findings regarding our management include:
•Findings for average vital rates, a population of 50 animals would not be expected to sustain any harvest regardless of the percent of the harvest that is male.
•For average vital rates, harvest of 4% has a probability of the population being stable or increasing ≥50% for large populations, and only if it is largely males being harvested.
•The probability of female being stable or increasing is true in population of ≥200 if the harvest in 70% male, and for population ≥100 animals if the harvest is 90% male.
Washington harvest has been 89% male. Data was collected from 72 goats harvested between 2002-2006. This information and the bolded finding is the research we applied to develop our management guidelines. Note that these simulations indicates stability or increases in ≥50% of the outcomes, therefore it is also specified in our Game Management Plan that we consistently monitor our hunted goat populations. Hopefully, this provides a basic summary of how we’ve developed our management guidelines for mtn. goats. If you have questions or would like to discuss this topic in more depth please feel free to call me at the number below.
Respectfully,
William
William Moore
Ungulate Specialist
Washington Dept. of Fish & Wildlife
1130 W University Way
Ellensburg, WA 98926
(509) 306-8969
Post by: ellensburgpo on February 19, 2021, 05:42:17 PM
Post by: jstone on February 20, 2021, 08:00:42 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 20, 2021, 08:54:58 AM
Post by: jackelope on February 20, 2021, 10:34:56 AM
Post by: Ridgerunner on February 21, 2021, 09:47:39 AM
I'd like to see a new goat area opened up that is basically from I-90 to highway 2 and encompasses the wilderness and non wilderness, maybe have highway 97 as a eastern boundary. I'm sure that there are more than 100 goats in that area, with probably quite a few different sub herds. It'd be nice to get some harvest going in there. Perhaps you exclude the enchantments due to the issues that would happen there but it seems to me that there could be a few permits in all that country and the herds could manage it just fine.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 21, 2021, 11:24:45 AM
448's population south end has dropped off significantly since the 70's however I did see 2 collared goats in it last year, maybe from the Olympics. But I don't think it warrants a permit without hurting the population. That's just my observation, I stock and survey high lakes mostly off trail so I am where they should be in my area at least.
Post by: sagemd on February 27, 2021, 06:04:14 AM
We know WDFW is not doing all they can. We know boots on the ground is a better way to get accurate counts. We know WDFW can and has used volunteers for these counts. But they still don't. Is it possible they are not interested in accurate counts ? Or maybe it's just easier to fly helicopters ?
Post by: Alan K on February 27, 2021, 08:04:04 AM
The decision is always going to be science and data driven so no matter how many observations we hunters report its going to take alot to move the needle on this one I'm afraid.
That right there is the trouble with elusive species. Particularly predators... Bear, cougar, wolves... A study could get a poor sample and all the sudden the 'science' points to horrendous management despite mountains of first hand accounts to the contrary. I think in a LOT of cases the sample sizes are too small to get highly accurate estimates, likely because of cost of data, yet they accept the results as gospel. Models with poor data output poor results! :twocents:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 27, 2021, 06:45:25 PM