Post by: Ironhead on February 26, 2021, 02:07:18 PM
The only state in the west with uncapped OTC general hunt Mule Deer for both RES. and Non Res.
( Except CA, and TX.) They don't count any way.
You can probably count on both hands how many NR's are pouring into WA to hunt the amazing herds of Mule Deer we obviously must have!
Post by: LDennis24 on February 26, 2021, 03:00:31 PM
Post by: Tracker0721 on February 26, 2021, 04:28:44 PM
https://www.fws.gov/wsfrprograms/subpages/LicenseInfo/Natl%20Hunting%20License%20Report%202017.pdf
Post by: jrebel on February 26, 2021, 04:40:32 PM
Post by: TooTallMike on February 26, 2021, 05:10:05 PM
Isn't is awesome!!! Now if we only had over the counter wolf, spring bear, and houndsmen cat tags.....It would be a great states to hunt mule deer in. It's not the number of hunters so please don't start down that track again. It's the lack of predator management and poaching (we will leave that vague) that is hurting our mule deer herds. Just my two cents......and go!!!! Let the debate begin. :chuckle: :chuckle:
Stop it you're making too much sense!!!
Post by: JimmyHoffa on February 26, 2021, 05:29:39 PM
The latest data says we only had 9,000 non resident hunting licenses, tags, stamps sold. That was 2017. Soooo not a lot of people coming to hunt much of anything. It’d be cool to see our herds get managed in a way that makes us a state worthy of visiting for hunting opportunity. I mean, the list even says CA had over 21,000!I only see a few out of staters, mainly from Alaska, for deer (blacktail). But I've encountered lots of out of state elk hunters on the westside--I actually see a bunch from Oregon (though, have seen plenty of other states represented).
https://www.fws.gov/wsfrprograms/subpages/LicenseInfo/Natl%20Hunting%20License%20Report%202017.pdf
Post by: Loup Loup on February 26, 2021, 05:44:18 PM
12 live mule deer, one dead in the ditch. 19 whitetail. This is the most whitetail Ive seen in Chelan county in one day. For mule deer, thats poor country.
If WDFW in Olympia ever fessed up to the true numbers their bios are reporting in the field, mule deer here would make the threatened species list.
But, the bean counters at HQ demand they continue to sell the illusion of opportunity.
Dam the resource.
I grew up on game. I raised my kids on game. I haven't purchased a deer or elk tag for three seasons. Im not contributing to WDFW mismanaging our game into extinction, any longer.
Post by: bobdog86 on February 26, 2021, 09:22:08 PM
Post by: lemondog on February 28, 2021, 08:12:22 AM
Post by: vandeman17 on February 28, 2021, 08:23:41 AM
Post by: ghosthunter on February 28, 2021, 08:49:19 AM
We are already out numbered, out spent,out talked by every user group out there.
Mis management, and the giving up of prime habitat to more mountain bike trails,hikers, and other year round users. Predators all are and will over come mule deer in this state, regardless of a draw.
I use to think that if we shut down hunting for a couple years things would rebound. After this past season with the forest service going around FW and allowing private groups to build miles of Mt Bike trails on ridges that only until last year saw limited traffic. Now groups of 2-20 run these ridges from melt to snow fly hunting season or not. Slopes being opened to more erosion above creeks.
It’s sickening.
Maybe a draw would help if anyone gave a hoot in Management agencies. But they don’t. Hunters have no juice in this state.
Don’t even talk about the other western states in this thread. They are no where even close to the forces at work here against hunting and management. This state is smaller, over populated and doesn’t give a hoot about the 1% or 2% of us that hunt.
The only reason we will still have any hunting at all is there are still hunting camps groups that go every year because well that’s what they do. Once you get your final limited draw those camps will fall away.
And the number of folks on are side will fall by 50% or more.
Those of you will have the woods to yourself, alone, just the predators, tribes and you. No more animals because all the other factors will still be working hard to drive you from the woods.
Post by: Special T on February 28, 2021, 08:50:20 AM
Unfortunatly too many folks focus on the things they cannot change. Tribal hunting is one of them. This issue that rubs everyone the wrong way is also an opportunity. What do I mean? If they are unstoppable for ungulates the tribes are unstoppable for predators. Trubal members could trap for cats and run hounds. Some tribes like the Colville seem to have a cadre of hound hunters getting the job done. Others not so much. If we really want to make a difference we need to get more young natives into predator hunting.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: hunter399 on February 28, 2021, 08:53:15 AM
Then protect migration routes and winter grounds with predator hunting that we are currently allowed.
With that said..........................
I do agree Washington needs better predator management ,but Washington is a lost cause in that respect.
I honestly hate the permit idea for all mule deer.
Without major changes for many species, permit only is the future of Washington.
Antlerless permits,all antlerless harvest, should of been gone ten year ago.
ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY 💰
When the resources are dang near endangered species ,then you will get your permit only ,WDFW will be stacking the gold bricks till the last deer is standing.
Deer counts done on private land should be exempt in my opinion. If you did deer counts on public Hunting land ,we would be way below sustainable populations for all deer species. I consider deer on private land to be like an off shore savings account,retirement fund for future generations of hunters.
Post by: dvolmer on February 28, 2021, 03:08:46 PM
With the above info stated, a switch for Washington to go to a draw only mule deer hunt would be a disaster. Look at the quality/bull units for elk in the Yakima, Blues, and Clockum. The tag numbers have been reduced to nothing because once the quality increased, the above user groups had a hay-day. Restricting yourself with a draw only gives these other user groups a bigger advantage. The only real way to improve this state (and it will never be done!) is to get control of the predator rules in the courts and to open up the elk and deer season for the general public to the same thing the natives are now having. It will decimate the current populations but it will be the only way to get the tribes to come to the table and negotiate in good faith. Once again, this all will never happen so the last and best option is to quit giving this state any of your money! If it wasn't for the revenue we produce as hunters, we would have been fazed out already from the equation. Did I mention the increase in Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming out of state hunters???? ;)
Post by: HillHound on February 28, 2021, 03:16:05 PM
Post by: Miles on February 28, 2021, 03:49:59 PM
Washington Mule Deer...
The only state in the west with uncapped OTC general hunt Mule Deer for both RES. and Non Res.
( Except CA, and TX.) They don't count any way.
You can probably count on both hands how many NR's are pouring into WA to hunt the amazing herds of Mule Deer we obviously must have!
I’ve got one that was worth the price of admission as a non-resident. I’ve actually thought about going back some day and hunting the same area. Low pressure, and odds are when you see one it’s going to be big.
Post by: Dan-o on February 28, 2021, 03:55:59 PM
I routinely see 100-200 mule deer per day.
It can be hard to find any mature bucks,but I'd never considered them as anywhere near a threatened species.
How many mule deer do you see in an average day of deer hunting?
Post by: mburrows on February 28, 2021, 04:06:04 PM
Post by: ThurstonCokid on February 28, 2021, 05:16:41 PM
First you have to get hunters to ditch all antlerless harvest.This is my exact thoughts.. more about protecting the does and protecting wintering grounds. 100% on board with predator management and don’t want to give up our muley season..
Then protect migration routes and winter grounds with predator hunting that we are currently allowed.
With that said..........................
I do agree Washington needs better predator management ,but Washington is a lost cause in that respect.
I honestly hate the permit idea for all mule deer.
Without major changes for many species, permit only is the future of Washington.
Antlerless permits,all antlerless harvest, should of been gone ten year ago.
ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY 💰
When the resources are dang near endangered species ,then you will get your permit only ,WDFW will be stacking the gold bricks till the last deer is standing.
Deer counts done on private land should be exempt in my opinion. If you did deer counts on public Hunting land ,we would be way below sustainable populations for all deer species. I consider deer on private land to be like an off shore savings account,retirement fund for future generations of hunters.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: MADMAX on February 28, 2021, 05:51:52 PM
It must be really bleak where you all hunt.
I routinely see 100-200 mule deer per day.
It can be hard to find any mature bucks,but I'd never considered them as anywhere near a threatened species.
How many mule deer do you see in an average day of deer hunting?
Very bleak
We hunt the Methow valley
In the woods 2-5 deer is a good day
Private you see more, but it’s still a shadow of what it once was
Pretty frickin sad but that’s why now we put in for Montana
Post by: idaho guy on February 28, 2021, 09:16:17 PM
Post by: Dan-o on February 28, 2021, 09:39:33 PM
It must be really bleak where you all hunt.
I routinely see 100-200 mule deer per day.
It can be hard to find any mature bucks,but I'd never considered them as anywhere near a threatened species.
How many mule deer do you see in an average day of deer hunting?
Very bleak
We hunt the Methow valley
In the woods 2-5 deer is a good day
Private you see more, but it’s still a shadow of what it once was
Pretty frickin sad but that’s why now we put in for Montana
Wow. Unreal.
Never really hunted the Methow, but have been here 35 years and remember people talking about it as awesome way back.
Post by: ctwiggs1 on February 28, 2021, 09:43:14 PM
It must be really bleak where you all hunt.
I routinely see 100-200 mule deer per day.
It can be hard to find any mature bucks,but I'd never considered them as anywhere near a threatened species.
How many mule deer do you see in an average day of deer hunting?
Very bleak
We hunt the Methow valley
In the woods 2-5 deer is a good day
Private you see more, but it’s still a shadow of what it once was
Pretty frickin sad but that’s why now we put in for Montana
Wow. Unreal.
Never really hunted the Methow, but have been here 35 years and remember people talking about it as awesome way back.
Dan-O be like “Dude it’s this simple: you buy a Washington tag and then hunt in Idaho. It’s totally cool. 200-300 deer a day. They love us over there. They call us “coasties” as a sign of respect.”
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 01, 2021, 05:27:55 AM
Post by: skidynastar33 on March 01, 2021, 06:55:59 AM
Limited draw for mule deer will be the final nail in hunting in this state.
We are already out numbered, out spent,out talked by every user group out there.
Mis management, and the giving up of prime habitat to more mountain bike trails,hikers, and other year round users. Predators all are and will over come mule deer in this state, regardless of a draw.
I use to think that if we shut down hunting for a couple years things would rebound. After this past season with the forest service going around FW and allowing private groups to build miles of Mt Bike trails on ridges that only until last year saw limited traffic. Now groups of 2-20 run these ridges from melt to snow fly hunting season or not. Slopes being opened to more erosion above creeks.
It’s sickening.
Maybe a draw would help if anyone gave a hoot in Management agencies. But they don’t. Hunters have no juice in this state.
Don’t even talk about the other western states in this thread. They are no where even close to the forces at work here against hunting and management. This state is smaller, over populated and doesn’t give a hoot about the 1% or 2% of us that hunt.
The only reason we will still have any hunting at all is there are still hunting camps groups that go every year because well that’s what they do. Once you get your final limited draw those camps will fall away.
And the number of folks on are side will fall by 50% or more.
Those of you will have the woods to yourself, alone, just the predators, tribes and you. No more animals because all the other factors will still be working hard to drive you from the woods.
This sums it up perfectly, don’t try to turn it into the other western states, it’s not possible! It has to be an opportunity state.
Post by: skidynastar33 on March 01, 2021, 07:01:23 AM
Hunting is not about big deer, it’s so much more. That’s why I cringe thinking that opportunity could go away if we couldn’t hunt each year.
Also do you really trust WDFW to manage a permit only system how you want it? News flash you will be complaining the same why on here about how something else needs to change or why isn’t wdfw doing this or that
Post by: bigmacc on March 01, 2021, 07:37:38 AM
It must be really bleak where you all hunt.
I routinely see 100-200 mule deer per day.
It can be hard to find any mature bucks,but I'd never considered them as anywhere near a threatened species.
How many mule deer do you see in an average day of deer hunting?
Very bleak
We hunt the Methow valley
In the woods 2-5 deer is a good day
Private you see more, but it’s still a shadow of what it once was
Pretty frickin sad but that’s why now we put in for Montana
Wow. Unreal.
Never really hunted the Methow, but have been here 35 years and remember people talking about it as awesome way back.
Heres a good "look back" at the Methow and what it once was. My cousin who earned numerous degrees from the U.W went to work for Idaho F and G back in the day, worked his way up and had some pretty fancy jobs within IF&G, he was in our Methow camp every year as a non resident, even after retirement and up until his passing, would still hunt Idaho every once in awhile but was in our Methow camp every year, he killed a lot of big Methow bucks. This was back in the 50,s , 60,s and 70,s. My great grandparents had numerous friends from Alaska, Idaho, Oregon and even Nevada who would routinely be in camp as non residents, many of those pictures I posted on here years ago. People would come to the Methow to hunt with my great grandparents regularly, this was all pre North Cascade pass when a lot of people who lived in this state had never heard of the Methow Valley let alone "the little town at the end of the road". If my cousin was still alive today, he would tell you he would have put the Methow up against anywhere in Idaho as far as quality and quantity, heard him say it many times, but that was a far different time, a real shame what they let happen to this herd, glad he wasn't here to see it.
Post by: Dan-o on March 01, 2021, 08:25:28 AM
It must be really bleak where you all hunt.
I routinely see 100-200 mule deer per day.
It can be hard to find any mature bucks,but I'd never considered them as anywhere near a threatened species.
How many mule deer do you see in an average day of deer hunting?
Very bleak
We hunt the Methow valley
In the woods 2-5 deer is a good day
Private you see more, but it’s still a shadow of what it once was
Pretty frickin sad but that’s why now we put in for Montana
Wow. Unreal.
Never really hunted the Methow, but have been here 35 years and remember people talking about it as awesome way back.
Dan-O be like “Dude it’s this simple: you buy a Washington tag and then hunt in Idaho. It’s totally cool. 200-300 deer a day. They love us over there. They call us “coasties” as a sign of respect.”
Play nice, Curtis! :chuckle: :chuckle:
Nope. I hunt muledeer in Washington,and I typically see 100ish mule deer per hunting day. I guess that makes it obious that I don't hunt the Methow.
I had one day last year where I saw over 200 deer. 75% of them on........ public land.
But mature bucks sure are hard to come by.....
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 01, 2021, 08:27:51 AM
Post by: Dan-o on March 01, 2021, 08:33:19 AM
I'm simply comparing experiences hunting mule deer in Wa.
Post by: Rainier10 on March 01, 2021, 09:17:03 AM
I feel like considering our population and huntable land that is pretty good for OTC hunting. If you want a true trophy experience you have to either get really lucky in the draw or go to one of the many other states that are draw only. Making this state draw only is not going to increase your hunting opportunity it is only going to make it better when you finally do draw.
IMO it is nice to always have the option to hunt OTC in my home state and either get lucky in the draw or travel elsewhere if I want a trophy experience.
Just my :twocents:
Post by: JakeLand on March 01, 2021, 09:52:06 AM
You need to change the mentality of your hunting community. I prefer predator hunting lions,bears, coyotes and wolf. We hunt Idaho and Montana successfully every year for deer and elk but we spend more time killing predators in Idaho than anything. There is an ingrained mentality of hunting deer and elk in most hunters but Washington really is a predator hunting Mecca. I realize you can’t hunt wolves or use hounds on cats but you have probably the best spot and stalk bear hunting and season of any state. I think me and my boy will pay the out of state for bear this year. Washington has to be the best state in the nation to kill a cat without hounds. Coyotes numbers appear to be ridiculously high when I am driving around eastern Washington.Hunt what is in abundance and leave the deer alone or just strictly hunt for only trophy deer and kill the heck out of predators. You are in the best predator hunting in the lower 48 in my opinion. Shift your focus and enjoy. Killing stuff with fangs and claws is more fun and bears and lions taste great 👍exactly ! Well put
Post by: nwwanderer on March 01, 2021, 09:56:00 AM
Post by: OutHouse on March 01, 2021, 12:01:56 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on March 01, 2021, 07:10:29 PM
Post by: bigmacc on March 01, 2021, 07:48:55 PM
Still, the #1, 2 and 3 issues concerning the Methow herd is predators, predators and more predators. Address that issue and get it under control and we are not having this conversation.
Post by: bigmacc on March 03, 2021, 02:06:34 PM
It sounds like some parts of the state are doing "okay" and others are decimated. I think the Methow units should be more heavily regulated but not sure exactly how. I think they should still allow whitetail OTC but mule deer its hard to justify. I've seen pictures of herds of mule deer on the valley floor prior to the highway coming through in the early 70s. Then there's the stories of which bigmacc's experience is quite helpful. I know an old timer who just left Mazama a few years ago and it was his opinion that the herd is at most 20% of its historic size. That's pretty dismal.
His opinion of the herd being around 20% of its historic size is a pretty good opinion in my eyes OutHouse, that herd at one time (1940,s into the 60,s era or so) was the largest migrating mule deer herd in the country, estimated at 35-40,000 head in its prime. I feel so blessed to have been around and experience this herd in its prime, I know I have told story after story of not only my experiences but my dads, grandparents and great grandparents hunting, studying and respecting this herd going back to the early 1900,s. Seeing 100-150 deer a day was a slow day for me, passing on nice big 2 points, 3 by 3,s and even average size 4 points was just another day in the field when this herd was in its hay days. I know some stories I have told of seeing 2-300 deer come through particular migration routes in an hours time only to keep put because another 2-300 would be coming through in an hour or so are hard for some of the younger folks on here to imagine or comprehend but its gods truth. I have seen over a thousand go through a saddle on a cold morning in the early 60,s with over 150 bucks in it of all shapes and sizes, seen over 250 come up a particular draw and not a horn in the bunch, all does, fawns and yearlings and was in one particular migration route where my dad and I counted over 2000 head come through over about a 5 hour period. I do understand these kind of experiences are hard to fathom compared with whats been happening in the Methow over the last 30-40 years but it is the truth.
Post by: OutHouse on March 03, 2021, 02:59:20 PM
It sounds like some parts of the state are doing "okay" and others are decimated. I think the Methow units should be more heavily regulated but not sure exactly how. I think they should still allow whitetail OTC but mule deer its hard to justify. I've seen pictures of herds of mule deer on the valley floor prior to the highway coming through in the early 70s. Then there's the stories of which bigmacc's experience is quite helpful. I know an old timer who just left Mazama a few years ago and it was his opinion that the herd is at most 20% of its historic size. That's pretty dismal.
His opinion of the herd being around 20% of its historic size is a pretty good opinion in my eyes OutHouse, that herd at one time (1940,s into the 60,s era or so) was the largest migrating mule deer herd in the country, estimated at 35-40,000 head in its prime. I feel so blessed to have been around and experience this herd in its prime, I know I have told story after story of not only my experiences but my dads, grandparents and great grandparents hunting, studying and respecting this herd going back to the early 1900,s. Seeing 100-150 deer a day was a slow day for me, passing on nice big 2 points, 3 by 3,s and even average size 4 points was just another day in the field when this herd was in its hay days. I know some stories I have told of seeing 2-300 deer come through particular migration routes in an hours time only to keep put because another 2-300 would be coming through in an hour or so are hard for some of the younger folks on here to imagine or comprehend but its gods truth. I have seen over a thousand go through a saddle on a cold morning in the early 60,s with over 150 bucks in it of all shapes and sizes, seen over 250 come up a particular draw and not a horn in the bunch, all does, fawns and yearlings and was in one particular migration route where my dad and I counted over 2000 head come through over about a 5 hour period. I do understand these kind of experiences are hard to fathom compared with whats been happening in the Methow over the last 30-40 years but it is the truth.
:tup: I spoke with a lady at a little shop in Winthrop and she talked about her dad's stories of a particular migration route that was crazy thick with deer back in the day just like you talk about. Unfortunately, she said this last season they only saw a few strings of several deer come through. I feel that mule deer are the iconic symbol of the west. Something has to be done about this here in WA.
Post by: Fishmaker57 on March 03, 2021, 04:30:02 PM
Sad situation!
Post by: MtnMuley on March 03, 2021, 04:51:57 PM
I know huntnphool has brought it up, I have brought it up and others also, different ways to do it but basically the same idea, every other year to hunt mule deer in the Methow. Eliminate the "quality permits" we have in effect now, go to an odd/even system based on your hunter ID, 10 day season always ending on October 31st, no matter what day it lands on. It immediately eliminates half of the pressure. Having it end on the 31st gives a little better chance at migrations though eliminates slaughters that may happen by letting it go deeper into November, (compromise I guess). I would pay more for a mule deer tag knowing I would have less hunters out and about and a better chance at hunting a migration. I would still go every year because chances are a few in our camp would be hunting one year and the others would be hunting the next, the off years I would be another set of eyes, concentrate on predators, help drag, cook, etc. etc. I would still be there every year and I know the others in our camp would be on their off year also. Its a better idea than going draw only where you may go years without being drawn. I know I would rather have the every other year method than draw only. If some say it will put more pressure on other mule deer areas then possibly going statewide is an option, like I say I would rather hunt mule deer every other year than go to a statewide draw, especially if it helps the herds come back and eliminates pumpkin patches etc. I know its a vague idea that would and should be fine tuned but compared to some of the alternative ideas from draw only, shutting it down completely for 2,3,4 or 5 years etc. I think its more appealing...Just my opinion and :twocents:
Still, the #1, 2 and 3 issues concerning the Methow herd is predators, predators and more predators. Address that issue and get it under control and we are not having this conversation.
I just don't see how using the last number of a WILD would work. What if a father son have different odds/evens? How about a group of guys who hunt together not all having odd numbers? Leaving the season open for half the population of hunters one year and the other half the next year until Oct 31 will not help the herd at all. Even with no late quality hunts. The better bucks can be killed just as easy the last couple days of October as they can during November as has been proven year in and year out. People claiming heavy snows push these better bucks down in November just don't have the proof in trophy harvests. I would agree through the 1990's, but not now. As hard as it is for many to understand or want to accept, the general seasons need to go to permit only, which means you won't be able to hunt the Methow every year like we'd like. Just like I don't believe in a certain group being able to kill as many bulls at anytime of the year in certain elk units, but I have to live with it. It's 2021, nothing is the way it should be anymore. If you truly care about the resource and it being around for generations to come, you're going to have to compromise at some point and stop the general OTC seasons here. I fully agree predators are a huge part of our population decrease and I'm not getting into that one.:twocents:
Post by: bigmacc on March 04, 2021, 10:45:01 AM
I know huntnphool has brought it up, I have brought it up and others also, different ways to do it but basically the same idea, every other year to hunt mule deer in the Methow. Eliminate the "quality permits" we have in effect now, go to an odd/even system based on your hunter ID, 10 day season always ending on October 31st, no matter what day it lands on. It immediately eliminates half of the pressure. Having it end on the 31st gives a little better chance at migrations though eliminates slaughters that may happen by letting it go deeper into November, (compromise I guess). I would pay more for a mule deer tag knowing I would have less hunters out and about and a better chance at hunting a migration. I would still go every year because chances are a few in our camp would be hunting one year and the others would be hunting the next, the off years I would be another set of eyes, concentrate on predators, help drag, cook, etc. etc. I would still be there every year and I know the others in our camp would be on their off year also. Its a better idea than going draw only where you may go years without being drawn. I know I would rather have the every other year method than draw only. If some say it will put more pressure on other mule deer areas then possibly going statewide is an option, like I say I would rather hunt mule deer every other year than go to a statewide draw, especially if it helps the herds come back and eliminates pumpkin patches etc. I know its a vague idea that would and should be fine tuned but compared to some of the alternative ideas from draw only, shutting it down completely for 2,3,4 or 5 years etc. I think its more appealing...Just my opinion and :twocents:
Still, the #1, 2 and 3 issues concerning the Methow herd is predators, predators and more predators. Address that issue and get it under control and we are not having this conversation.
I just don't see how using the last number of a WILD would work. What if a father son have different odds/evens? How about a group of guys who hunt together not all having odd numbers? Leaving the season open for half the population of hunters one year and the other half the next year until Oct 31 will not help the herd at all. Even with no late quality hunts. The better bucks can be killed just as easy the last couple days of October as they can during November as has been proven year in and year out. People claiming heavy snows push these better bucks down in November just don't have the proof in trophy harvests. I would agree through the 1990's, but not now. As hard as it is for many to understand or want to accept, the general seasons need to go to permit only, which means you won't be able to hunt the Methow every year like we'd like. Just like I don't believe in a certain group being able to kill as many bulls at anytime of the year in certain elk units, but I have to live with it. It's 2021, nothing is the way it should be anymore. If you truly care about the resource and it being around for generations to come, you're going to have to compromise at some point and stop the general OTC seasons here. I fully agree predators are a huge part of our population decrease and I'm not getting into that one.:twocents:
Well, as far as a father and son having different numbers or a group with some guys having odds and others evens, I can only speak for myself and I know the other folks in our camp feel the same way, they would still be in camp, predator hunting, helping spot, drag etc, I just wouldn't be killing a mule deer on my off year, I could still hunt blacktail or whitetail just not mule deer in the Methow that particular year for me. If it was my year and not my sons, I would still have my son with me, teaching and mentoring. If it was my sons year and not mine, you bet id be there with him, teaching, mentoring and hopefully helping drag and butcher :chuckle: I agree, its all about compromise, Ive been singing the song about the demise of this particular herd for decades, like I said before, IMHO, at the hands of exploding predator numbers being the #1 contributor. I think a good starting compromise would be starting with the every other year idea rather than jumping into a full blown draw system where you could go years or decades before being drawn. I shared another idea on here years ago about going draw only for the Methow units, eliminating all late quality permits and drawing 1-200 per unit for a one week season ending on the 3rd weekend of October then drawing 50-75 per unit ending on the 31st then, season over. As far as archery, it would be draw only also, x amount of tags drawn for the last 2 weeks of September, once again, its a draw system, you may be drawn every few years or you could go a decade or more before your number is called. All ideas are just that, ideas that can be debated and tweaked. I just don't think anything aggressively will be done to fix the real issue which is predator numbers that have been left to overpopulate and a new apex predator who's numbers are growing and spreading. You could line up 50 people who have a deep history hunting mule deer in this particular valley and everyone of them would have a different idea on how this herd could be helped, I would bet most would start off with aggressively controlling predator numbers then there would be a lot of different plan B ideas, bottom line, we all see a problem and we all have ideas and thaughts because we do have that history of what this herd once was.
An add on here.
You could even have a hybrid scenario where every other year (depending on odd/even wild ID) you can enter a draw for 150-200 tags per unit in the Methow, you would have a draw but your chances would be better because the numbers in the draw are cut in half, for instance, say an open drawing attracted 10 thousand applicants, doing every other year(odd/even) only gets 5000 applicants per year (just using those numbers for simple math). This way you still have your drawing but your chances increase. Its still a draw so you may draw every few years or you may draw after 10 years, thats the issue with a draw system, unless they give out large quantities of tags which I don't know if that defeats the purpose or not :dunno: Just spitballing here, probably no idea that makes everyone happy.
Post by: Rainier10 on March 04, 2021, 11:10:29 AM
If you asked 100 hunters if exploding predator populations are hurting the ungulate population I bet you would get 100 yes's.
Unfortunately WDFW's hands are tied with the predator thing and so plan B is the only option and that is going to vary from hunter to hunter.
They, the antihunters/predator lovers, have taken away the one option we can agree on. Divide and conquer.
Post by: bigmacc on March 04, 2021, 02:24:17 PM
The first step in addressing a problem, is to admit that there is a problem, something WDFW will not do in the Methow. The biologist in charge up there told me, a few years ago in a public meeting, that "there are just as many Mule Deer in the Methow as there has always been, people just don't get off the roads and look for them".
Sad situation!
Yep I've heard that also, BS! They may be able to pull that on younger folks or folks that have only been hunting the valley for 20 or 30 years but there are still a few old timers around that call them on that and we are a thorn in their side. I showed a game fella some pictures in one of our albums years ago after telling me the same thing, it was a picture showing 22 bucks hanging on a pole from the early 60,s, 22 family members in camp (I posted that same picture on here a few years ago), I asked him do you really want to tell me theres as many deer in this valley as there used to be, I told him a few of my experiences, my dads and grandparents, showed him more pictures told him of the story of my dad and I talking to a "counter" who was sitting in a rig in a particular spot on the East Chewuch road back in the early 70,s who by noon had counted over 700 head cross the road, traveling in bunches of 2 or 3 to 100 in a bunch, a couple days later we seen her sitting in another spot in the Carleton area, she had counted over 800 by the time she knocked off at 4pm, this was a week or so after the season had closed, he didn't know quite what to say when I asked him if they see those kind of herds on the move nowadays. He attempted the old stand by approach, "if you can't dazzle em with brilliance then baffle em with bulls@#t". On that particular day he picked the wrong guy.:chuckle:
Post by: Ironhead on March 04, 2021, 02:42:21 PM
To the people that want to be able to hunt them every year with no cap for 90% of the units on the East side of the State. Pull your heads out of the sand and wake up. Between the unlimited 2 legged predators and the four legged predators they don't stand a chance in hell!
Post by: no.cen.wa on March 07, 2021, 08:18:00 PM
John G
Post by: bigmacc on March 08, 2021, 11:03:23 AM
The first step in addressing a problem, is to admit that there is a problem, something WDFW will not do in the Methow. The biologist in charge up there told me, a few years ago in a public meeting, that "there are just as many Mule Deer in the Methow as there has always been, people just don't get off the roads and look for them".
Sad situation!
Coming back and reading over this topic again conjured up another couple experiences Ive had years ago. A friend and I were doing some counting and post season scouting in a corridor in the upper valley that in my youth I remember my dad and I counting hundreds come through over a days time when conditions were right, in fact it was close to were I killed that big 4 by 5 this past season, its a spot where when conditions align just right it used to be amazing. I remember the winter kill of 67-68 where the weather blew in from the Frazier river in B.C then into the Methow, it was a year my dad, an uncle and myself watched over 2000 head pass through this same area, I remember my dad saying something to the effect of "those deer are on a mission to get from point A to point B, they know something we don't". I remember it was 2 or 3 weeks after the season had closed I believe, this particular route mostly
originates in Canada but has "fingers" of other routes that would join in here and there, like creeks flowing into a river as it flows. Where we were at was in a spot where not many "creeks" had yet entered the river, what we were seeing was close to the beginning in fact my dad said he could never remember seeing that many deer come through that area, even when conditions and timing were perfect, maybe a few hundred but not over 2000 and maybe farther down the line when the more "creeks" flowed into the "river", then you might see 2,3 or 400 come through over a few hour period but this was something my dad had not experienced. It was like they knew that historic winter blast was coming, Mother Nature was giving them a warning. I remember my dad and I being there weeks later when the blast hit, flash freeze down to 40-50 below in some spots. We had old 8mm movie footage that my dad filmed of livestock froze solid leaning up against trees and fenceposts, deer carcases scattered everywhere with flocks of birds, crows and eagles hovering while packs of coyotes scanvenged. I Remember stories of frozen pipes, engine blocks, machinery etc., if I remember right the temperature plunged 60 something degrees within hours. I can't remember how many thousands of deer were lost that winter but it took years for it to recover but the herd did recover with help from the locals and the Game Department. Anyway, Im rambling, 20 years or so ago, about 2 weeks prior to Thanksgiving I ran into some college students with a tracking device, they were parked up on an old logging road and sitting down the bank aways, I stopped and talked with them, they said they were monitoring deer movement or something to that effect. There was a WDFW employee there also, he said A LOT of deer were being seen in this particular area while they were doing this study or tracking, or whatever. I asked about how many they had seen while they were up there, he said they had been in the area off and on for about 7 days and had seen over 100 deer move through over the week, he began throwing numbers at me, study plans, and computer modeling stuff along with projections and other fancy lingo. I said, well, thats better than 50 I guess but not like it was. I pointed at a ridge about 250 yards away and told him that back in the late 70,s I sat right where we are standing now the week prior to Thanksgiving and counted over 250 deer walk through in an hours time, ate lunch, walked around a little to stretch my legs, sat back down and counted another 3-4 hundred move through before it got dark. He also said the herd was in great shape and numbers were stronger than ever.....until I told him that story, once again, he picked the wrong guy that day to try the ole "baffle em with bulls@#t" routine :chuckle:.
Post by: Ironhead on March 08, 2021, 11:15:37 AM
Ironhead, I'll go along with you on 4 legged predators, but where I hunted for 50 + years has nowhere close the the amount of hunters we had back in the 60s thru 90s, and the season was 3-4 weeks. Of course there are more different seasons, bow, muzzy etc, but still nowhere the hunters of the past.Thats because there are NO deer left to hunt in the Methow, compared to years past.
John G
Post by: ShaneTyTrey on March 08, 2021, 11:19:50 AM
I have two different areas I hunt, one with kids and one that I personally hunt. I see over 50 deer a day in both spots but mature bucks are far and few between.
I feel like considering our population and huntable land that is pretty good for OTC hunting. If you want a true trophy experience you have to either get really lucky in the draw or go to one of the many other states that are draw only. Making this state draw only is not going to increase your hunting opportunity it is only going to make it better when you finally do draw.
IMO it is nice to always have the option to hunt OTC in my home state and either get lucky in the draw or travel elsewhere if I want a trophy experience.
Just my :twocents:
100% Agreement!
Post by: skidynastar33 on March 09, 2021, 05:33:19 AM
I appreciate the people that care about the health of the Mule Deer herds in Eastern Washington.
To the people that want to be able to hunt them every year with no cap for 90% of the units on the East side of the State. Pull your heads out of the sand and wake up. Between the unlimited 2 legged predators and the four legged predators they don't stand a chance in hell!
Who says comparing the herd to when it was at Its peak is healthy? Maybe that was overpopulated and more prone to disease and winter die offs cause there wasn’t enough winter range. We all want a higher population (myself included) but when you talk about the “the health of the herd” all anyone talks about is total population which isn’t the determining factor in the “health of the herd”. Maybe today’s herd is more stable? How much winter range forage do they have? How healthy are they entering winter?
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 09, 2021, 05:50:30 AM
Post by: Jimmy33 on March 09, 2021, 06:50:27 AM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Mtnwalker on March 09, 2021, 07:57:07 AM
I appreciate the people that care about the health of the Mule Deer herds in Eastern Washington.
To the people that want to be able to hunt them every year with no cap for 90% of the units on the East side of the State. Pull your heads out of the sand and wake up. Between the unlimited 2 legged predators and the four legged predators they don't stand a chance in hell!
Who says comparing the herd to when it was at Its peak is healthy? Maybe that was overpopulated and more prone to disease and winter die offs cause there wasn’t enough winter range. We all want a higher population (myself included) but when you talk about the “the health of the herd” all anyone talks about is total population which isn’t the determining factor in the “health of the herd”. Maybe today’s herd is more stable? How much winter range forage do they have? How healthy are they entering winter?
That's certainly a trendy argument with alot of today's newer Bio's, page 13 of the wolf reintroduction playbook. Claiming that winter range is full, meanwhile people who own the winter range are asking where all the deer have gone. I do agree that the glory days back in the 60's were possibly a spike at the tail end of predator poisoning and lucrative fur trades, heavy trapping etc etc. But wdfw is currently using the robust ungulate numbers of the 1960's as a reason to further reduce mountain goat opportunity- citing the herd being well below historical high population- while simultaneously trying to say that they're doing a great job and mule deer and elk are all the healthier for it. Obviously you can't directly compare mountain goats to deer and elk, but the argument of herd health vs population can't go both ways IMO
Post by: Rainier10 on March 09, 2021, 08:18:59 AM
I personally dont want the opportunity in Washington to change. The only thing I would like to see is the multiseason tag to go away, and tag specifically for whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer. I like being able to hunt every year. I would rather restrict what we are currently doing than to go to draw tags.The multiseason is a cash cow for the WDFW and tons of hunters wanted it. "remember the good old days when the seasons were longer and you could hunt with whatever weapon you wanted." Well the WDFW can't get the ungulate population back to where it was in the good old days but they did bring back the extended season. This is one that I think people should be concerned about what they asked for. The extended multiseason option is putting way more pressure on our ungulates no question about it. I use the multiseason so I can carry the firearm for my kids without any questions but I do think for the benefit of the herd this is one that should go away.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: walt on March 09, 2021, 08:30:28 AM
Post by: skidynastar33 on March 09, 2021, 11:01:43 AM
You are really reaching if you think todays herd is more stable.
I don’t necessarily think that. (Tho I think they are probably more steady then we think on this forum). I was more playing devils advocate that when ever people seam to talk about the health of the herd on here it’s the same thing. They more population and bigger bucks. And it’s more complicated then that
Post by: duckmen1 on March 09, 2021, 11:48:40 AM
I'd be all in for pick a specie for deer: whitetail, blacktail, or mule deer, pick one. WDFW could then sell multi-specie tags in addition to the multi-season...everyone wins :yike: :sry:In addition to the positive thought of more income for the state. I believe this would help the blacktail herd. Due to all the muledeer hunters from the westside that don't tag out come back and hunt the remainder of the season for blacktails. If it was species specific we would see lower blacktail harvest. And higher population.
Post by: ghosthunter on March 09, 2021, 12:11:48 PM
I'd be all in for pick a specie for deer: whitetail, blacktail, or mule deer, pick one. WDFW could then sell multi-specie tags in addition to the multi-season...everyone wins :yike: :sry:In addition to the positive thought of more income for the state. I believe this would help the blacktail herd. Due to all the muledeer hunters from the westside that don't tag out come back and hunt the remainder of the season for blacktails. If it was species specific we would see lower blacktail harvest. And higher population.
Great idea.
Lots of folks double dipping. Different tag each species of deer. Make your pick for the year.
Post by: OutHouse on March 09, 2021, 12:19:04 PM
Post by: no.cen.wa on March 09, 2021, 01:34:33 PM
Just saying, it's not the 2 legged predators, mis-management and 4 legged predators for sure!Ironhead, I'll go along with you on 4 legged predators, but where I hunted for 50 + years has nowhere close the the amount of hunters we had back in the 60s thru 90s, and the season was 3-4 weeks. Of course there are more different seasons, bow, muzzy etc, but still nowhere the hunters of the past.Thats because there are NO deer left to hunt in the Methow, compared to years past.
John G
John G
Post by: duckmen1 on March 09, 2021, 02:33:12 PM
I think picking species may backfire. I've talked to several on the west side who told me if they had to pick a species they wouldn't hunt black tails and would opt for mule deer. Then it would be even worse in eastern WA.Those hunters are already opting to hunt mule deer. That is my point. They are headed east and hunting the whole mule deer season and afterwards if not tagged out coming back hunting blacktails. If they had to choose and went muledeer and didn't tag out that's it. Therefor raising blacktail population a bit from late season harvest being lowered. Or only hunting blacktails and putting less pressure on muledeer. Sounds like a win to me on both sides. I've been talking about this idea for years.
Post by: OutHouse on March 09, 2021, 02:46:43 PM
I think picking species may backfire. I've talked to several on the west side who told me if they had to pick a species they wouldn't hunt black tails and would opt for mule deer. Then it would be even worse in eastern WA.Those hunters are already opting to hunt mule deer. That is my point. They are headed east and hunting the whole mule deer season and afterwards if not tagged out coming back hunting blacktails. If they had to choose and went muledeer and didn't tag out that's it. Therefor raising blacktail population a bit from late season harvest being lowered. Or only hunting blacktails and putting less pressure on muledeer. Sounds like a win to me on both sides. I've been talking about this idea for years.
Yea I get that and your point is well taken and I could be wrong but black tails seem to be doing just fine. At this point my mind is thinking of perhaps overly simplistic solutions. I'm thinking shut down the methow for at least two years and then move to draw only. I have a place up there and have been a visitor to the valley for most of my life (34 y/o). When I was young, we would see at least a dozen different mule bucks hanging around the area. Now it is maybe 1 or 2. Some years none at all save for a few spikes still with their mother.
Post by: Ironhead on March 09, 2021, 02:49:59 PM
Post by: vandeman17 on March 09, 2021, 03:02:37 PM
Post by: OutHouse on March 09, 2021, 03:18:30 PM
I would be fine picking a species, cutting way back or eliminating mule deer doe tags in some units and also having a meaningful discussion on predator control. Maybe anyone who fills a bear or cougar tag is put into a drawing for a late season mule deer hunt?
The predators are a huge issue. Have found several cashes over the last few years with multiple deer skulls in them etc. Back before hounds were outlawed there was a guy who lived just down the road from my place. His name was Rudy. I think he had some type of eastern European last name. Anyway, he used hounds and had pretty much rid the mazama area of any problem cats. Those were the years that mine and Rudy's close friend Bob was regularly shooting 25-30" bucks. I would love to get a bear out of that area but I only seem to see them during the summer. I could run into or see a half dozen between the time they wake up and August and then they just disappear from my hunting area. I'm no bear hunter but would take one if I could just find it.
On another note, what would 2-3 years of no hunting do for the herd? It would probably cause at least some level of comeback with perhaps hundreds or even thousands of bucks not being taken.
Post by: Fishmaker57 on March 09, 2021, 04:25:20 PM
The first step in addressing a problem, is to admit that there is a problem, something WDFW will not do in the Methow. The biologist in charge up there told me, a few years ago in a public meeting, that "there are just as many Mule Deer in the Methow as there has always been, people just don't get off the roads and look for them".
Sad situation!
There have been a bunch of great ideas discussed on this thread, of steps the state could take to begin addressing this issue, but I have to go back to my original post. WDFW has not and will not admit there is a problem in the Methow, or with Mule deer in general, so until it's "their" idea to address this problem, we will be stuck with their current mode of management:
Ignore the problem and maybe it will go away!
Post by: MtnMuley on March 09, 2021, 04:52:15 PM
The first step in addressing a problem, is to admit that there is a problem, something WDFW will not do in the Methow. The biologist in charge up there told me, a few years ago in a public meeting, that "there are just as many Mule Deer in the Methow as there has always been, people just don't get off the roads and look for them".
Sad situation!
There have been a bunch of great ideas discussed on this thread, of steps the state could take to begin addressing this issue, but I have to go back to my original post. WDFW has not and will not admit there is a problem in the Methow, or with Mule deer in general, so until it's "their" idea to address this problem, we will be stuck with their current mode of management:
Ignore the problem and maybe it will go away!
They won't address the problem, because it interferes with their and CNW agenda on predators. That's a fact.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 09, 2021, 05:08:58 PM
I think picking species may backfire. I've talked to several on the west side who told me if they had to pick a species they wouldn't hunt black tails and would opt for mule deer. Then it would be even worse in eastern WA.
But think of the seasons that they could have for blacktail if there were less hunter numbers there (timing or length). Of course that assumes wdfw would actually manage each species independently. Hunter pressure could be directed with seasons.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on March 09, 2021, 07:09:12 PM
I personally dont want the opportunity in Washington to change. The only thing I would like to see is the multiseason tag to go away, and tag specifically for whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer. I like being able to hunt every year. I would rather restrict what we are currently doing than to go to draw tags.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
I would be fine picking a species, cutting way back or eliminating mule deer doe tags in some units and also having a meaningful discussion on predator control. Maybe anyone who fills a bear or cougar tag is put into a drawing for a late season mule deer hunt?
The predators are a huge issue. Have found several cashes over the last few years with multiple deer skulls in them etc. Back before hounds were outlawed there was a guy who lived just down the road from my place. His name was Rudy. I think he had some type of eastern European last name. Anyway, he used hounds and had pretty much rid the mazama area of any problem cats. Those were the years that mine and Rudy's close friend Bob was regularly shooting 25-30" bucks. I would love to get a bear out of that area but I only seem to see them during the summer. I could run into or see a half dozen between the time they wake up and August and then they just disappear from my hunting area. I'm no bear hunter but would take one if I could just find it.
On another note, what would 2-3 years of no hunting do for the herd? It would probably cause at least some level of comeback with perhaps hundreds or even thousands of bucks not being taken.
What herd? Sure it may possibly help the Methow herd......But would really hurt other herds like the Entiat with the extra pressure they would receive.. I would never go for an idea like that.
Post by: bigmacc on March 09, 2021, 07:43:04 PM
Im not a fan of completely shutting down the Methow either, I think there are many other ideas being floated that would help without putting overwhelming pressure on other areas. If theres away of staying OTC I think it involves the every other year idea, at least it cuts out half the hunters. I'm all for doing away with multisession tags and doing away with quality permits in the Methow for 2-3 years but shutting it down completely would set a precedent that may come back to bite us in the future. I hope it stays OTC as well but I have seen first hand what this particular herd was and what it has become, something needs to be done about predators, bottom line. A compromise could easily be reached if both sides were open to discussion AND were honest. Im not calling for the "elimination" of predators in the Methow, I think they have a place just as we as hunters have our historic place as hunters and gatherers, now if we as hunters are going to be managed for "the betterment" of the herd then 4 legged predators need to be managed for the betterment of the herd. increase quotas a bit on cats and bears, offer x amount of special permit hound hunt tags in all units, etc. WDFW needs to do there job, manage the herd for sure but don't just manage us as hunters, manage both sides equally and do it with honesty and transparency.... :twocents:
Post by: davew on March 10, 2021, 06:22:03 AM
Another way is to make the hunters less efficient, so that they still get to hunt but take fewer deer. There are a lot ways to do this - 4 point minimum antler size, no rifle hunting, ban compound bows, flintlock/round ball muzzleloaders only, etc. How would people feel about this approach? This would still give hunters OTC tags every year.
Obviously, controlling predator populations is the fastest way to recover the mule deer herd in the Methow, but that is probably not politically feasible when only ~4% of Washington residents hunt and Seattle area voters drive WDFW policies.
Post by: MIKEXRAY on March 10, 2021, 06:33:03 AM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on March 10, 2021, 07:36:29 AM
I agree there is a predator issue that lots talk about (mostly 4 legged variety) BUT
Science tells me that with out prey, the predators can not/will not flourish for long. This pred/prey scenario has been playing out forever, not just 60's-2021's.
What are all the predators feeding on? The deer are not plentiful enough to support the masses of predators we keep hearing about.
How long before the preds. move on/ drop way off in numbers?
If you were dependent on making a kill to feed yourself(instead of going to Safeway), would you spend much time in a ungulate void area?
The herd issues are MUCH more far reaching than just 4 legged predators.
Control overharvest, late seasons, long seasons, expansion of human population, loss of range, poaching, multi season permits, vehicle strikes, roaming pets, wildfires, doe harvest, etc, etc.
Post by: mburrows on March 10, 2021, 07:53:25 AM
Positive this will get flamed. :P :P
I agree there is a predator issue that lots talk about (mostly 4 legged variety) BUT
Science tells me that with out prey, the predators can not/will not flourish for long. This pred/prey scenario has been playing out forever, not just 60's-2021's.
What are all the predators feeding on? The deer are not plentiful enough to support the masses of predators we keep hearing about.
How long before the preds. move on/ drop way off in numbers?
If you were dependent on making a kill to feed yourself(instead of going to Safeway), would you spend much time in a ungulate void area?
The herd issues are MUCH more far reaching than just 4 legged predators.
Control overharvest, late seasons, long seasons, expansion of human population, loss of range, poaching, multi season permits, vehicle strikes, roaming pets, wildfires, doe harvest, etc, etc.
100% agree
Post by: Rainier10 on March 10, 2021, 08:01:22 AM
We need to increase herd numbers.
Why?
So we can kill more deer.
How?
Decrease the predators and we can kill more.
But then there are still less deer. Then what?
We need to reduce seasons and go permit only so there are more deer to kill.
Then what? Now you have more deer, shorter seasons and less opportunity but more deer to look at with a much longer off season because you have given up your season for a permit opportunity.
From what I’ve seen nobody is happy with the permit system we have. Are we going to like the new one better?
Im confused as to what the end goal is.
It sounds like people want lots of deer to look at and a really good hunting experience every 5-10 years when you get lucky enough to be allowed to hunt.
Post by: hunter399 on March 10, 2021, 08:50:22 AM
I’m not sure what the goal is here.I say stop antlerless harvest at all ,protect dem does at all cost. Keep everything else the same.
We need to increase herd numbers.
Why?
So we can kill more deer.
How?
Decrease the predators and we can kill more.
But then there are still less deer. Then what?
We need to reduce seasons and go permit only so there are more deer to kill.
Then what? Now you have more deer, shorter seasons and less opportunity but more deer to look at with a much longer off season because you have given up your season for a permit opportunity.
From what I’ve seen nobody is happy with the permit system we have. Are we going to like the new one better?
Im confused as to what the end goal is.
It sounds like people want lots of deer to look at and a really good hunting experience every 5-10 years when you get lucky enough to be allowed to hunt.
And let all the cards fall .
That's about all WDFW will do anyway.
#1 in the playbook buddy.
According to WDFW antlered harvest doesn't effect deer population.
At least thats what they keep telling me.
Post by: Mtnwalker on March 10, 2021, 08:55:54 AM
Post by: Special T on March 10, 2021, 09:01:12 AM
We are in a predator pit. Unless we start killing lots of cats Bears and Bobcats I dont think its gonna matter what we do.
The department knows that if it goes permit only a large segment of the population will quit hunting. The department is weak and scared. They wont make any big moves especially that affect $.
Post by: Special T on March 10, 2021, 09:03:05 AM
People also don't seem to realize that wdfw is doing what they can to keep harvest numbers UP for deer, not reduce them. As long as harvest remains steady, they can claim they are doing a good job and that all is well, predators aren't an issue. I believe this is why they added the extra few days to the tail end of rifle season, allowing 209's and scopes on muzz, and so on. Careful pushing for species specific deer tags, as category-happy as wdfw is they might just heed your advice and offer separate tags for each... but probably allow you to buy all 3 :chuckle: of course you'd still only get your 1 deer
The scopes on Muzzy and Classifiers in peep sights for Archery were specifically to keep older hunters in the game hunting paying for tags. This was done because of hunter demographics and $.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 10, 2021, 11:45:41 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on March 10, 2021, 01:03:46 PM
If a certain area only has resources to sustain a herd of 100 deer you don't want 99 does and 1 buck to breed them all.
There is alot more to carrying capacity than just open space. I have a large amount of land. I have acres that have deer on them every day of the week and other spots that don't see a deer but once a month as they are moving from one good area to another.
Post by: huntnphool on March 10, 2021, 01:30:45 PM
I think part of the pro doe harvest argument is carrying capacity of the land and buck to doe ratios.
If a certain area only has resources to sustain a herd of 100 deer you don't want 99 does and 1 buck to breed them all.
There is alot more to carrying capacity than just open space. I have a large amount of land. I have acres that have deer on them every day of the week and other spots that don't see a deer but once a month as they are moving from one good area to another.
The issue with this argument is “science” and their “studies” have suggested that nature balances itself naturally. If there isn’t enough prey for predators, they naturally don’t produce as much offspring, allowing plenty of food for their specie. On the flip side, when there is plenty of available food, they will produce more offspring.
If we are to believe their “science” regarding predators, why wouldn’t it be the same for ungulates? If there isn’t enough resources to sustain the herd, wouldn’t doe and cows naturally produce less offspring, only one fawn and calf rather than two?
Just seems to me they always come up with a argument that serves their purpose, but that same argument is never relevant when you point out the hypocrisy! :twocents:
Post by: Rainier10 on March 10, 2021, 02:15:14 PM
I agree. You can make the argument that the glass is half full or half empty but it will always be the same glass of water. The flip flop depending on where they stand at that time is frustrating. I do think Nock Nock made the argument earlier about balance and that predators can't be that out of balance because there are enough ungulates for them to eat, if there weren't predator numbers would drop on their own.I think part of the pro doe harvest argument is carrying capacity of the land and buck to doe ratios.
If a certain area only has resources to sustain a herd of 100 deer you don't want 99 does and 1 buck to breed them all.
There is alot more to carrying capacity than just open space. I have a large amount of land. I have acres that have deer on them every day of the week and other spots that don't see a deer but once a month as they are moving from one good area to another.
The issue with this argument is “science” and their “studies” have suggested that nature balances itself naturally. If there isn’t enough prey for predators, they naturally don’t produce as much offspring, allowing plenty of food for their specie. On the flip side, when there is plenty of available food, they will produce more offspring.
If we are to believe their “science” regarding predators, why wouldn’t it be the same for ungulates? If there isn’t enough resources to sustain the herd, wouldn’t doe and cows naturally produce less offspring, only one fawn and calf rather than two?
Just seems to me they always come up with a argument that serves their purpose, but that same argument is never relevant when you point out the hypocrisy! :twocents:
If there is plenty of food and capacity does will have twins and if there is not they will only have one or no offspring. The law of averages says that there will be just as many bucks born in a year as does but there are all kinds of factors that determine how many make it through the year and what sex actually makes it. You could still end up with a higher number of does taking up carrying capacity of the land and that would then require doe harvest to open up more room for bucks.
It's complicated for sure. I have over 200 deer on my place right now. Buck to doe ratio is all screwed up and there is no doe harvest in the unit I am in. My only option is to limit buck harvest again this year. I am hoping by hunting season the numbers will balance out and the kids can hunt.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on March 10, 2021, 07:08:46 PM
Either end of the balance beam gets heavy it will ruin the "fun of the game" for the other end.....then eventually the heavy end has to turn into the light end or again there is no "balancing game"
Nature will work it out, we as hunters just need to help that process out a bit, so it favors our sport.
Post by: boneaddict on March 14, 2021, 11:34:41 AM
Stop the antlerless harvest. (Little johnnie can learn to hunt like the rest of us did). 2nd deer tag, really?
Get a grip on Tribal harvest. You all are just going to improve the jerky market. Look what cutbacks did in the clockum (for elk).
Stop the multi season tag
Put funds into buying land to secure for range versus hiring wolf study guys.
This would be a start. I’m guessing very few hunters are willing to make the sacrifice. Every time I see someone excited about killing a doe I want to puke. Oh and in this woke world you can’t say anything because you might hurt someone’s feelings and you get lectured on how we have to stick together. Hold hands like those on the deck of the titanic.
Post by: jstone on March 14, 2021, 03:42:21 PM
Post by: elksnout on March 14, 2021, 06:41:33 PM
I agree no second deer, no does!!!, no stupid multi season tags!!!
Guys could actually stop applying for them.....
Elksnout
Post by: Jimmy33 on March 14, 2021, 08:53:18 PM
Predator controlTell us how you really feel about it...I agree with almost everything you said but I like the idea of giving youths, in my eyes 13 and younger, the ability to shoot any buck as opposed to does tags and antler restrictions.
Stop the antlerless harvest. (Little johnnie can learn to hunt like the rest of us did). 2nd deer tag, really?
Get a grip on Tribal harvest. You all are just going to improve the jerky market. Look what cutbacks did in the clockum (for elk).
Stop the multi season tag
Put funds into buying land to secure for range versus hiring wolf study guys.
This would be a start. I’m guessing very few hunters are willing to make the sacrifice. Every time I see someone excited about killing a doe I want to puke. Oh and in this woke world you can’t say anything because you might hurt someone’s feelings and you get lectured on how we have to stick together. Hold hands like those on the deck of the titanic.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: no.cen.wa on March 14, 2021, 09:55:58 PM
Predator controlHey Bone,
Stop the antlerless harvest. (Little johnnie can learn to hunt like the rest of us did). 2nd deer tag, really?
Get a grip on Tribal harvest. You all are just going to improve the jerky market. Look what cutbacks did in the clockum (for elk).
Stop the multi season tag
Put funds into buying land to secure for range versus hiring wolf study guys.
This would be a start. I’m guessing very few hunters are willing to make the sacrifice. Every time I see someone excited about killing a doe I want to puke. Oh and in this woke world you can’t say anything because you might hurt someone’s feelings and you get lectured on how we have to stick together. Hold hands like those on the deck of the titanic.
there was a tent camp at 30 mile last year that had 30 ft. pole tied to a stump, it had a Trump Flag at the top and another flag below it that said " Fxxx" your feelings!
It was Great!
John G
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 15, 2021, 05:42:50 AM
Predator control
Stop the antlerless harvest. (Little johnnie can learn to hunt like the rest of us did). 2nd deer tag, really?
Get a grip on Tribal harvest. You all are just going to improve the jerky market. Look what cutbacks did in the clockum (for elk).
Stop the multi season tag
Put funds into buying land to secure for range versus hiring wolf study guys.
This would be a start. I’m guessing very few hunters are willing to make the sacrifice. Every time I see someone excited about killing a doe I want to puke. Oh and in this woke world you can’t say anything because you might hurt someone’s feelings and you get lectured on how we have to stick together. Hold hands like those on the deck of the titanic.
I agree with this. there is no sense in giving out doe tags when the herd is hurting. Some hunters are so concerned about shooting something at the expense of future hunting.
Post by: huntnphool on March 15, 2021, 10:50:22 AM
Predator control
Stop the antlerless harvest. (Little johnnie can learn to hunt like the rest of us did). 2nd deer tag, really?
Get a grip on Tribal harvest. You all are just going to improve the jerky market. Look what cutbacks did in the clockum (for elk).
Stop the multi season tag
Put funds into buying land to secure for range versus hiring wolf study guys.
This would be a start. I’m guessing very few hunters are willing to make the sacrifice. Every time I see someone excited about killing a doe I want to puke. Oh and in this woke world you can’t say anything because you might hurt someone’s feelings and you get lectured on how we have to stick together. Hold hands like those on the deck of the titanic.
I agree with this. there is no sense in giving out doe tags when the herd is hurting. Some hunters are so concerned about shooting something at the expense of future hunting.
Remember discussing doe tags years ago on this site, and how people lost their freakin minds when members posted that their families purchased doe tags for years and burned them on purpose? :chuckle:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 15, 2021, 11:44:45 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on March 15, 2021, 12:54:06 PM
Exactly, people lost their minds when the predator lover bought the grizzly tag, I can't remember the state, and didn't use it. The tags are there, use them or don't however you think the game should be managed.Predator control
Stop the antlerless harvest. (Little johnnie can learn to hunt like the rest of us did). 2nd deer tag, really?
Get a grip on Tribal harvest. You all are just going to improve the jerky market. Look what cutbacks did in the clockum (for elk).
Stop the multi season tag
Put funds into buying land to secure for range versus hiring wolf study guys.
This would be a start. I’m guessing very few hunters are willing to make the sacrifice. Every time I see someone excited about killing a doe I want to puke. Oh and in this woke world you can’t say anything because you might hurt someone’s feelings and you get lectured on how we have to stick together. Hold hands like those on the deck of the titanic.
I agree with this. there is no sense in giving out doe tags when the herd is hurting. Some hunters are so concerned about shooting something at the expense of future hunting.
Remember discussing doe tags years ago on this site, and how people lost their freakin minds when members posted that their families purchased doe tags for years and burned them on purpose? :chuckle:
Post by: boneaddict on March 15, 2021, 01:26:55 PM
Post by: bigmacc on March 15, 2021, 07:52:11 PM
Predator control
Stop the antlerless harvest. (Little johnnie can learn to hunt like the rest of us did). 2nd deer tag, really?
Get a grip on Tribal harvest. You all are just going to improve the jerky market. Look what cutbacks did in the clockum (for elk).
Stop the multi season tag
Put funds into buying land to secure for range versus hiring wolf study guys.
This would be a start. I’m guessing very few hunters are willing to make the sacrifice. Every time I see someone excited about killing a doe I want to puke. Oh and in this woke world you can’t say anything because you might hurt someone’s feelings and you get lectured on how we have to stick together. Hold hands like those on the deck of the titanic.
I agree with this. there is no sense in giving out doe tags when the herd is hurting. Some hunters are so concerned about shooting something at the expense of future hunting.
Remember discussing doe tags years ago on this site, and how people lost their freakin minds when members posted that their families purchased doe tags for years and burned them on purpose? :chuckle:
Yep, I can't tell you how many we burned over the years, probably approached a hundred between all of us :dunno: :tup:, even had a Game department employee that we knew(who shall remain nameless :chuckle:) tell us he agreed with us while he watched them go in the fire.
Post by: huntnphool on March 15, 2021, 11:32:58 PM
Predator control
Stop the antlerless harvest. (Little johnnie can learn to hunt like the rest of us did). 2nd deer tag, really?
Get a grip on Tribal harvest. You all are just going to improve the jerky market. Look what cutbacks did in the clockum (for elk).
Stop the multi season tag
Put funds into buying land to secure for range versus hiring wolf study guys.
This would be a start. I’m guessing very few hunters are willing to make the sacrifice. Every time I see someone excited about killing a doe I want to puke. Oh and in this woke world you can’t say anything because you might hurt someone’s feelings and you get lectured on how we have to stick together. Hold hands like those on the deck of the titanic.
I agree with this. there is no sense in giving out doe tags when the herd is hurting. Some hunters are so concerned about shooting something at the expense of future hunting.
Remember discussing doe tags years ago on this site, and how people lost their freakin minds when members posted that their families purchased doe tags for years and burned them on purpose? :chuckle:
Yep, I can't tell you how many we burned over the years, probably approached a hundred between all of us :dunno: :tup:, even had a Game department employee that we knew(who shall remain nameless :chuckle:) tell us he agreed with us while he watched them go in the fire.
The unfortunate side to this is WDFW soon assumed a percentage of these tags were indeed being burned. Which led to them allocating that same assumed percentage into the quota. What has happened since then is complete lack of faith in WDFW, and WDFW lack of respect for hunters. The result is many people reporting false info, which does neither side any good!
I honestly don’t see a end to this issue. WDFW have proven to be a bunch of bean counting pencil pushers, out of touch with license holders. License holders see it as well, and are beginning to take all the issues into their own hands. :twocents:
Post by: sagemd on March 17, 2021, 08:07:37 PM
They seem to think hunters are not conservationists, and willing to pay for improvements in wildlife populations.
They are not proactive in public relations dealing with predators, trapping or anti-hunting issues.
Hunters are not being honest with reports anymore. And are loosing interest in dealing with WDFW.
Post by: ian_padron on March 19, 2021, 08:26:13 PM
I've cut my teeth learning how to hunt mule deer in WA since moving here in 2015, so no I don't have a giant sample size, but there is some outrageously good hunting to be had IF you're willing to put in the work. 10 day rifle high hunt, 10 day modern...that's 20 days of hunting mule deer with a rifle, all in the most scenic state in the West. Maybe I'm just too much of an optimist.
Already plenty of limitations with the point restrictions and selected date ranges for seasons.
Call me crazy, but there are remote pockets in this state with mature deer densities on par with the central Idaho units (43, 19, 36) that I've hunted, but with way less hunter pressure.
Are the herds in this state down historically? Of course they are. But let's keep pushing for better predator management and reduced antlerless tags instead of throwing away the few opportunities we have left.
The steelhead situation in this state is a great example of the fact that once the opportunities are gone, they very seldom come back.
Just my two cents.
Post by: hunter399 on March 19, 2021, 08:37:53 PM
Ten bad winters
Black/blue/red tounge
Alien Ticks that now kill deer but never have before
Maybe the Habitat Loss
Deer population has nothing to do With a buck, antlerless deer multiply on there on own.
Or only 5% of Washington residents buy a hunting liences
So poachers must of killed all the deer.
Or is it WDFW coming up with every excuse they can.
That doesn't include a predator.
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :dunno: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
I think we might be going on bad winter number 38 now
I'm not really sure at this point. :chuckle:
Post by: sagerat on March 19, 2021, 09:01:07 PM
Predator control
Stop the antlerless harvest. (Little johnnie can learn to hunt like the rest of us did). 2nd deer tag, really?
Get a grip on Tribal harvest. You all are just going to improve the jerky market. Look what cutbacks did in the clockum (for elk).
Stop the multi season tag
Put funds into buying land to secure for range versus hiring wolf study guys.
This would be a start. I’m guessing very few hunters are willing to make the sacrifice. Every time I see someone excited about killing a doe I want to puke. Oh and in this woke world you can’t say anything because you might hurt someone’s feelings and you get lectured on how we have to stick together. Hold hands like those on the deck of the titanic.
:yeah: I agree
Post by: huntnphool on March 19, 2021, 10:08:26 PM
Are you guys talking about the................
Ten bad winters
Black/blue/red tounge
Alien Ticks that now kill deer but never have before
Maybe the Habitat Loss
Deer population has nothing to do With a buck, antlerless deer multiply on there on own.
Or only 5% of Washington residents buy a hunting liences
So poachers must of killed all the deer.
Or is it WDFW coming up with every excuse they can.
That doesn't include a predator.
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :dunno: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
I think we might be going on bad winter number 38 now
I'm not really sure at this point. :chuckle:
How can the winters be effecting the numbers, compared to “the good ole days”, when science says Global warming has made the winters much less severe since then? :rolleyes:
Post by: hunter399 on March 19, 2021, 10:29:11 PM
That's a question for you to ask WDFW .Are you guys talking about the................
Ten bad winters
Black/blue/red tounge
Alien Ticks that now kill deer but never have before
Maybe the Habitat Loss
Deer population has nothing to do With a buck, antlerless deer multiply on there on own.
Or only 5% of Washington residents buy a hunting liences
So poachers must of killed all the deer.
Or is it WDFW coming up with every excuse they can.
That doesn't include a predator.
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :dunno: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
I think we might be going on bad winter number 38 now
I'm not really sure at this point. :chuckle:
How can the winters be effecting the numbers, compared to “the good ole days”, when science says Global warming has made the winters much less severe since then? :rolleyes:
I lost faith about 38 bad winters back .
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
I'm not really sure ,but one thing is for sure.
The bad winter excuse is getting lame.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on March 20, 2021, 05:52:54 AM
Winters kill deer. Bad, good and inbetween winters. That is Fact.
Some by exposure, starvation, vehicles, easier predator targets, domestic dogs, jerky guys, poachers, etc.....
Ask some folks who spent time in the 2015-16 winter about how many dead critters they came across.
Post by: hunter399 on March 20, 2021, 08:39:46 AM
Everyone seems to think that the "good ole days" were AWESOME hunting ALL the time, EVERY year. Simply not true. There has always been ups and downs in deer populations, and hunting success.I do agree that all kinds of factors come into play. That populations are gonna fluctuate. Few good year,few bad years.
Winters kill deer. Bad, good and inbetween winters. That is Fact.
Some by exposure, starvation, vehicles, easier predator targets, domestic dogs, jerky guys, poachers, etc.....
Ask some folks who spent time in the 2015-16 winter about how many dead critters they came across.
I seen you mentioned 2015-2016 winter .
Let me ask a few question.
Does the 2015 winter have a direct impact on the population today?
Should population's have rebounded?
Did the WDFW do enough in 2016 by reducing permits or harvest to help rebound?
I only ask these cause I get it. There are cases where there is a bad winter. But at the same time I see it as an easy excuse to not assess the situation we are in now. Or to say our deer population is in bad shape from a winter 7 years ago. It may be a small contributing factor .At the same time A lot of other factors can happen in 7 years.
Post by: bigmacc on March 22, 2021, 01:26:54 PM
Yep tough winters happen and even during some of the real doosies that I have personally experienced the herd always bounced back, they were fed and managed back to health, not all management tactics were perfect (nowadays they frown on feeding tactics etc. and some tough winters were followed up with doe shoots),even in spite of being controversial, the herd still came back. IMHO, the reason the Methow herd always bounced back in a relative short period of time even with the not so perfect tactics used by the Game Department back then was because of one reason and one reason only, very simple, the herds rebounded and sometimes came back even stronger because of the lack of predators compared to whats there now, even with some of those tactics that not all agreed with. The herd basically had to contend with coyotes, thats about it and they were mostly kept in check back in the day through poisoning and bounties. Bears, cats etc. were kept in check with hound hunting etc, like I've mentioned before, it was an oddity, even a treat to get a glimpse off a cougar or a bear while out and about, it was a rare experience and of coarse wolves were not an issue. This enabled the herd to bounce back and in some cases bounce back quickly.
I dont recall how many thousands of deer died in that winter of 68-69 but within 2-3 years the herd was strong again, I killed a huge 5 by 5 in 71 that was with at least 6 or 7 other big bucks and we were seeing 70-100 deer per day that season, our post season scouting were showing numbers equaling or exceeding numbers we were seeing prior to that historic winter. Even the 69 and 70 seasons were good for us, we killed 13 bucks in 69 and 15 in 70 out of approximately 20 people in just our camp (yes, I posted pictures years ago :chuckle:). Winters certainly can impact particular herds but can be successfully managed back to healthy numbers very quickly, the predator situation we have in the Methow nowadays is the reason that doesn't happen anymore. Sure the herd can recover but the base number just continues to drop. Back in the hay-days of the Methow herd the "Game Department" actually tried to manage the herd for hunters, the WDFW has way more other irons in the fire, some of which are directly in conflict with the hunting public, managing this once historic herd for Licsense and tag sales as priority 1 are long gone, they are walking a lot of thin lines and this particular herd is showing the results of all those irons in the fire. I do know this, if a winter like the one of 68-69 hit nowadays and with the tactics now adopted by WDFW (frowning on feeding etc.) and with exploding predator numbers, well, this particular herd would take decades if not more to even get back to what they claim it is now, IMO. The plus side to this horrible scenario would be that the predators would probably leave or die off also.
I 100% agree with bone, address the predator issue in the valley, no more doe permits and do away with multi season tags, put the money into securing range rather than wolf study after wolf study and oh ya, address the predator issue. IMO, doing these would help keep the Methow at least OTC and even let the quality tag program continue..... :twocents:
Post by: cb1989 on March 23, 2021, 07:15:47 AM
Post by: jstone on March 23, 2021, 08:18:18 AM
Post by: bigmacc on March 23, 2021, 12:07:00 PM
For you guys who think you're on an island with your WDFW troubles... in my home state of MI I couldn't even draw an antlerless tag for a northern public land unit two years ago... this year I'll be able to buy ten OTC. Ya, ten. To be used statewide, in any season. "Self regulation" is what they are calling it. They did something similar twenty years ago and we only started seeing deer in numbers again about ten years ago. The DNR manages hunting and fishing in MI and believe me, they are as out of touch with a large segment of the state's hunters as the WDFW is here. It's nothing new or unique. I know that doesn't help, but maybe helps you feel like mismanagement doesn't just happen in WA.
You touched on something, that IMHO is spot on, you said in your state "they are as out of touch with a large segment of the states hunters as the WDFW is here". It kind of goes with what I have said for years, when the Game Department in this state became WDFW back in the 90,s is when things began to change. They no longer managed our herds and big game for hunters as priority 1, it used to be the better the product they put forth the more license and tags they sold, thats why some of us remember some of the historic herds that were once here, the Methow herd being one of them and the one I talk of most because of my families history with it. Four things have led to the demise of this herd IMHO, #1-doing away with hound hunting as far as controlling bear and cats, #2-introduction of wolves into the valley(either by natural migration or human help) and #3-the doing away with the Game Department and the creation of WDFW and #4-the opening of the North Cascade Pass, there are other factors such as loss of habitat, encroachment and a few others but IMO, some of those tie in with the opening of the pass. Like I have said many times and I know others here have witnessed it also but this particular herd has in the past bounced back quickly and in some cases came back stronger than before from fires, draught, more fires, more draught and many many brutal winter kills. It would always come back quickly, at the most 3-5 years. This herd was in the 35-40 thousand head range during its peak but would fluctuate between haymakers thrown by Mother Nature, sometimes the herd would be 24-27 thousand head, sometimes 30-33 thousand, sometimes a little more or a little less. One thing was for sure this particular herd was the darling of the department, it was put on a pedestal and it sold a lot of lic. and tags back in the day. There were other strong herds of Elk and deer around the state also and those too were managed to sell tags and bring in money.
The pass opened in the mid 70,s opening the Methow to millions of new people over the years, some were hunters, some were anti hunters and some were over the top conservationist, this was the beginning of the end of what this herd once was, more hunters putting pressure on the herd , more anti hunters voicing their beliefs, more folks moving to the valley and along with them were conservationists who wanted nature to take care of the balance, i.e, natural predation by other creatures besides man, oh myself and my dad have had many long but respectful conversations with some of these folks, one was from Colorado I remember, she wanted deer to die naturally, whether that meant starving because of brutal winters or by draught or by freezing to death, it didn't matter to her as long as they died by the hands of nature and natures animals would clean up the carcasses, in her opinion man should not thin the herd or help it survive, she was very interesting to listen to, to say the least. Then the trifecta came along, game changing restrictions took effect on how we managed bears and cats, wolves were taking hold and the "Game Department" went away, all happening within a few years of each other.
Im not saying the Game Department was perfect, I've had 3 relatives work in Game departments of 3 different states, they looked at management of big game a lot differently back in the day, like I said herds were basically managed for hunters(to be simplistic about it), strong herds sold tags, period. With what we have now (WDFW and like MI has, the DNR managing its wildlife) they have other priorities, other user groups to answer to and like I said, they have many other irons in the fire, from lizards to frogs to mushrooms and snails, the list is long and some are farther up the ladder than others. Ive said many times and I know a lot of folks agree, deer and elk herds and the health of them as far as a numbers or head count goes is far down the ladder, not on the pedestal it once was. Sure they want to bring in money from selling tags etc but managing herds to grow their numbers for hunters is not the priority it once was. The WDFW is spread thin, no doubt, they have many groups and interests to answer to and like I said before, some of those groups and interests are in direct conflict with we as hunters and our interests and visa versa, no doubt they have many fine lines to walk.
Back in the day the Game department folks we knew over the years, from wardens to managers to bio,s and the ones my grandparents and great grandparents knew all had one thing in common, they were passionate about the herd first and foremost and all the ones I knew were avid hunters themselves. Bottom line, the WDFW is different than the Game Department was, its mission is different and a lot, not all but a lot of the people working at different levels are not in touch with hunters or our interests, not because they don't want to be I hope, but because many are not hunters and they are just spread to thin... as far as the Methow herd goes I believe they estimate it at around 15-17 thousand and I know some who know this herd pretty well and they think that those numbers are a bit high, including myself, any way you look at its a far cry from the 35-40 thousand head that roamed this valley not that long ago.
Post by: idaho guy on March 25, 2021, 09:31:03 AM
For you guys who think you're on an island with your WDFW troubles... in my home state of MI I couldn't even draw an antlerless tag for a northern public land unit two years ago... this year I'll be able to buy ten OTC. Ya, ten. To be used statewide, in any season. "Self regulation" is what they are calling it. They did something similar twenty years ago and we only started seeing deer in numbers again about ten years ago. The DNR manages hunting and fishing in MI and believe me, they are as out of touch with a large segment of the state's hunters as the WDFW is here. It's nothing new or unique. I know that doesn't help, but maybe helps you feel like mismanagement doesn't just happen in WA.
You touched on something, that IMHO is spot on, you said in your state "they are as out of touch with a large segment of the states hunters as the WDFW is here". It kind of goes with what I have said for years, when the Game Department in this state became WDFW back in the 90,s is when things began to change. They no longer managed our herds and big game for hunters as priority 1, it used to be the better the product they put forth the more license and tags they sold, thats why some of us remember some of the historic herds that were once here, the Methow herd being one of them and the one I talk of most because of my families history with it. Four things have led to the demise of this herd IMHO, #1-doing away with hound hunting as far as controlling bear and cats, #2-introduction of wolves into the valley(either by natural migration or human help) and #3-the doing away with the Game Department and the creation of WDFW and #4-the opening of the North Cascade Pass, there are other factors such as loss of habitat, encroachment and a few others but IMO, some of those tie in with the opening of the pass. Like I have said many times and I know others here have witnessed it also but this particular herd has in the past bounced back quickly and in some cases came back stronger than before from fires, draught, more fires, more draught and many many brutal winter kills. It would always come back quickly, at the most 3-5 years. This herd was in the 35-40 thousand head range during its peak but would fluctuate between haymakers thrown by Mother Nature, sometimes the herd would be 24-27 thousand head, sometimes 30-33 thousand, sometimes a little more or a little less. One thing was for sure this particular herd was the darling of the department, it was put on a pedestal and it sold a lot of lic. and tags back in the day. There were other strong herds of Elk and deer around the state also and those too were managed to sell tags and bring in money.
The pass opened in the mid 70,s opening the Methow to millions of new people over the years, some were hunters, some were anti hunters and some were over the top conservationist, this was the beginning of the end of what this herd once was, more hunters putting pressure on the herd , more anti hunters voicing their beliefs, more folks moving to the valley and along with them were conservationists who wanted nature to take care of the balance, i.e, natural predation by other creatures besides man, oh myself and my dad have had many long but respectful conversations with some of these folks, one was from Colorado I remember, she wanted deer to die naturally, whether that meant starving because of brutal winters or by draught or by freezing to death, it didn't matter to her as long as they died by the hands of nature and natures animals would clean up the carcasses, in her opinion man should not thin the herd or help it survive, she was very interesting to listen to, to say the least. Then the trifecta came along, game changing restrictions took effect on how we managed bears and cats, wolves were taking hold and the "Game Department" went away, all happening within a few years of each other.
Im not saying the Game Department was perfect, I've had 3 relatives work in Game departments of 3 different states, they looked at management of big game a lot differently back in the day, like I said herds were basically managed for hunters(to be simplistic about it), strong herds sold tags, period. With what we have now (WDFW and like MI has, the DNR managing its wildlife) they have other priorities, other user groups to answer to and like I said, they have many other irons in the fire, from lizards to frogs to mushrooms and snails, the list is long and some are farther up the ladder than others. Ive said many times and I know a lot of folks agree, deer and elk herds and the health of them as far as a numbers or head count goes is far down the ladder, not on the pedestal it once was. Sure they want to bring in money from selling tags etc but managing herds to grow their numbers for hunters is not the priority it once was. The WDFW is spread thin, no doubt, they have many groups and interests to answer to and like I said before, some of those groups and interests are in direct conflict with we as hunters and our interests and visa versa, no doubt they have many fine lines to walk.
Back in the day the Game department folks we knew over the years, from wardens to managers to bio,s and the ones my grandparents and great grandparents knew all had one thing in common, they were passionate about the herd first and foremost and all the ones I knew were avid hunters themselves. Bottom line, the WDFW is different than the Game Department was, its mission is different and a lot, not all but a lot of the people working at different levels are not in touch with hunters or our interests, not because they don't want to be I hope, but because many are not hunters and they are just spread to thin... as far as the Methow herd goes I believe they estimate it at around 15-17 thousand and I know some who know this herd pretty well and they think that those numbers are a bit high, including myself, any way you look at its a far cry from the 35-40 thousand head that roamed this valley not that long ago.
That’s a good summary I like the history in your posts. I posted this already but I seriously wonder. Why don’t Washington hunters shift gears and hunt predators? For example Bear taste good and you have an abundance and great season? As hunters we don’t need to care only about killing deer and elk. I would seize the opportunity the predator lovers are giving you. It seems like once a hunter is raised to hunt deer and elk that’s all some hunters will ever do. If you live in a predator pit hunt predators. You could be living in the “good ole days” of predator hunting that we will look back on in 20-30 years. Screw the game department policy and politics they have proven they don’t want to manage the deer and they have created an abundance of predators. Hunt what is abundant you could miss the good ole days of Washington predator hunting wasting time trying to get your game department to manage for deer and elk. It surprises me that so many Washington hunters buy Idaho bear tags when it seems like Washington has way better bear hunting. I understand if you want to bait or hunt spring otc but your August season has to be WAY better than at least the Idaho panhandle. They are managing for predators hunt them and save a few deer in the process. If I lived in Washington I would trophy hunt only for mule deer and probably not shoot one but would hunt and trap predators year around. Just some thoughts but I am an avid predator hunter. Carry on I do think it’s a shame how they have mismanaged your deer you have some of the greatest muley habitat around and seems like great genetics to grow big deer.
Post by: dilleytech on March 25, 2021, 10:25:57 AM
For you guys who think you're on an island with your WDFW troubles... in my home state of MI I couldn't even draw an antlerless tag for a northern public land unit two years ago... this year I'll be able to buy ten OTC. Ya, ten. To be used statewide, in any season. "Self regulation" is what they are calling it. They did something similar twenty years ago and we only started seeing deer in numbers again about ten years ago. The DNR manages hunting and fishing in MI and believe me, they are as out of touch with a large segment of the state's hunters as the WDFW is here. It's nothing new or unique. I know that doesn't help, but maybe helps you feel like mismanagement doesn't just happen in WA.
You touched on something, that IMHO is spot on, you said in your state "they are as out of touch with a large segment of the states hunters as the WDFW is here". It kind of goes with what I have said for years, when the Game Department in this state became WDFW back in the 90,s is when things began to change. They no longer managed our herds and big game for hunters as priority 1, it used to be the better the product they put forth the more license and tags they sold, thats why some of us remember some of the historic herds that were once here, the Methow herd being one of them and the one I talk of most because of my families history with it. Four things have led to the demise of this herd IMHO, #1-doing away with hound hunting as far as controlling bear and cats, #2-introduction of wolves into the valley(either by natural migration or human help) and #3-the doing away with the Game Department and the creation of WDFW and #4-the opening of the North Cascade Pass, there are other factors such as loss of habitat, encroachment and a few others but IMO, some of those tie in with the opening of the pass. Like I have said many times and I know others here have witnessed it also but this particular herd has in the past bounced back quickly and in some cases came back stronger than before from fires, draught, more fires, more draught and many many brutal winter kills. It would always come back quickly, at the most 3-5 years. This herd was in the 35-40 thousand head range during its peak but would fluctuate between haymakers thrown by Mother Nature, sometimes the herd would be 24-27 thousand head, sometimes 30-33 thousand, sometimes a little more or a little less. One thing was for sure this particular herd was the darling of the department, it was put on a pedestal and it sold a lot of lic. and tags back in the day. There were other strong herds of Elk and deer around the state also and those too were managed to sell tags and bring in money.
The pass opened in the mid 70,s opening the Methow to millions of new people over the years, some were hunters, some were anti hunters and some were over the top conservationist, this was the beginning of the end of what this herd once was, more hunters putting pressure on the herd , more anti hunters voicing their beliefs, more folks moving to the valley and along with them were conservationists who wanted nature to take care of the balance, i.e, natural predation by other creatures besides man, oh myself and my dad have had many long but respectful conversations with some of these folks, one was from Colorado I remember, she wanted deer to die naturally, whether that meant starving because of brutal winters or by draught or by freezing to death, it didn't matter to her as long as they died by the hands of nature and natures animals would clean up the carcasses, in her opinion man should not thin the herd or help it survive, she was very interesting to listen to, to say the least. Then the trifecta came along, game changing restrictions took effect on how we managed bears and cats, wolves were taking hold and the "Game Department" went away, all happening within a few years of each other.
Im not saying the Game Department was perfect, I've had 3 relatives work in Game departments of 3 different states, they looked at management of big game a lot differently back in the day, like I said herds were basically managed for hunters(to be simplistic about it), strong herds sold tags, period. With what we have now (WDFW and like MI has, the DNR managing its wildlife) they have other priorities, other user groups to answer to and like I said, they have many other irons in the fire, from lizards to frogs to mushrooms and snails, the list is long and some are farther up the ladder than others. Ive said many times and I know a lot of folks agree, deer and elk herds and the health of them as far as a numbers or head count goes is far down the ladder, not on the pedestal it once was. Sure they want to bring in money from selling tags etc but managing herds to grow their numbers for hunters is not the priority it once was. The WDFW is spread thin, no doubt, they have many groups and interests to answer to and like I said before, some of those groups and interests are in direct conflict with we as hunters and our interests and visa versa, no doubt they have many fine lines to walk.
Back in the day the Game department folks we knew over the years, from wardens to managers to bio,s and the ones my grandparents and great grandparents knew all had one thing in common, they were passionate about the herd first and foremost and all the ones I knew were avid hunters themselves. Bottom line, the WDFW is different than the Game Department was, its mission is different and a lot, not all but a lot of the people working at different levels are not in touch with hunters or our interests, not because they don't want to be I hope, but because many are not hunters and they are just spread to thin... as far as the Methow herd goes I believe they estimate it at around 15-17 thousand and I know some who know this herd pretty well and they think that those numbers are a bit high, including myself, any way you look at its a far cry from the 35-40 thousand head that roamed this valley not that long ago.
That’s a good summary I like the history in your posts. I posted this already but I seriously wonder. Why don’t Washington hunters shift gears and hunt predators? For example Bear taste good and you have an abundance and great season? As hunters we don’t need to care only about killing deer and elk. I would seize the opportunity the predator lovers are giving you. It seems like once a hunter is raised to hunt deer and elk that’s all some hunters will ever do. If you live in a predator pit hunt predators. You could be living in the “good ole days” of predator hunting that we will look back on in 20-30 years. Screw the game department policy and politics they have proven they don’t want to manage the deer and they have created an abundance of predators. Hunt what is abundant you could miss the good ole days of Washington predator hunting wasting time trying to get your game department to manage for deer and elk. It surprises me that so many Washington hunters buy Idaho bear tags when it seems like Washington has way better bear hunting. I understand if you want to bait or hunt spring otc but your August season has to be WAY better than at least the Idaho panhandle. They are managing for predators hunt them and save a few deer in the process. If I lived in Washington I would trophy hunt only for mule deer and probably not shoot one but would hunt and trap predators year around. Just some thoughts but I am an avid predator hunter. Carry on I do think it’s a shame how they have mismanaged your deer you have some of the greatest muley habitat around and seems like great genetics to grow big deer.
I agree. I do live in a predator pit and bear hunting has been good for me since I started targeting them heavily around 5 years ago. All though I prefer things with antlers for some reason, bear hunting is a blast and a lot easier then filling a deer tag for me at least. It’s sad I have to travel out East every few years for a good deer hunting experience. It’s frustrating we live in a state that does not care about the heards anymore. But hey bear hunting’s good... idk how many skulls is cool to have on your wall or what point it becomes creepy but I will find out.. :chuckle:
Post by: OutHouse on March 26, 2021, 08:17:09 AM
Post by: no.cen.wa on March 26, 2021, 10:10:51 AM
:twocents:
Post by: hal on March 29, 2021, 11:12:57 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 29, 2021, 11:42:00 AM
Side note, does anyone think the influx of whitetail into the Methow causes any issues for the mule deer? I've heard whitetail are more aggressive and run them off. I've seen whitetail pretty high up in 218 a few times.How high is high there? I think the predators are forcing all deer there down in the Valley more and more
Post by: OutHouse on March 29, 2021, 01:58:52 PM
Side note, does anyone think the influx of whitetail into the Methow causes any issues for the mule deer? I've heard whitetail are more aggressive and run them off. I've seen whitetail pretty high up in 218 a few times.How high is high there? I think the predators are forcing all deer there down in the Valley more and more
This was on the backside of Goat peak with the summit probably at least 1000 feet up. My estimate is 5000-6000 feet. Near the valley floor, nearly all the bucks I see are whitetail. I would say its a 5 to 1 ratio in terms of not seeing many mule bucks anymore.
Post by: heavyhorned on March 29, 2021, 03:26:11 PM
Post by: Ironhead on April 24, 2021, 08:41:37 AM
What else can be done to help?
Post by: boneaddict on April 24, 2021, 09:09:51 AM
Side note, does anyone think the influx of whitetail into the Methow causes any issues for the mule deer? I've heard whitetail are more aggressive and run them off. I've seen whitetail pretty high up in 218 a few times.
I don’t think it’s an issue
Post by: Alchase on April 24, 2021, 08:20:29 PM
Whitetails and Muleys have been living near each other for ever. Never been a problem.
Post by: bigmacc on April 25, 2021, 09:32:27 AM
Side note, does anyone think the influx of whitetail into the Methow causes any issues for the mule deer? I've heard whitetail are more aggressive and run them off. I've seen whitetail pretty high up in 218 a few times.
I don’t think it’s an issue
I agree, I dot think its an issue either, I've seen groups of whitetail and mulies feeding within 20 yards of each other, on a few occasions even bedded within a rocks throw of each other, maybe whitetails get a bit more territorial because by nature they are not migrators like mule deer so during the rut they may me a bit more aggressive but a whitetail buck will act that way whether a mulie buck wanders by or a whitetail wanders by, they are just plain crabby when it comes rut time :chuckle:.. :twocents:
Post by: nwwanderer on April 25, 2021, 11:59:33 AM
Post by: hal on April 26, 2021, 10:05:51 AM
Post by: Sandberm on April 26, 2021, 11:35:33 AM
I know i didnt see many deer.
Post by: trophyhunt on April 26, 2021, 12:19:08 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 26, 2021, 12:44:05 PM
Most deer harvested ever and most hunters ever in district 5 I believe.
I know i didnt see many deer.
Sometimes I question their results.
Post by: dvolmer on April 26, 2021, 12:45:18 PM
With 15 or 16 points for deer, I almost feel like I should just ghost point till it gets better, but then reality is, it may never get better.it’s only going to get worse. And that is sad for me to say and come to terms with.
Post by: Timberstalker on April 26, 2021, 12:49:17 PM
With 15 or 16 points for deer, I almost feel like I should just ghost point till it gets better, but then reality is, it may never get better.
Jerry, these will be just like your elk points. LOL
Talk to me in 8 years.
Post by: trophyhunt on April 26, 2021, 12:55:12 PM
lol, yeah, I hardly even get angry anymore when I don’t draw. :chuckle: I remember years ago the post I’d make right after the draws, mad at the world, lol. I just expect it anymore, to be disappointed that is.With 15 or 16 points for deer, I almost feel like I should just ghost point till it gets better, but then reality is, it may never get better.
Jerry, these will be just like your elk points. LOL
Talk to me in 8 years.
Post by: trophyhunt on April 26, 2021, 12:56:18 PM
Post by: Timberstalker on April 26, 2021, 01:38:48 PM
:rolleyes: :yike: :bash:
Post by: wolfbait on May 07, 2021, 04:23:16 AM
You need to change the mentality of your hunting community. I prefer predator hunting lions,bears, coyotes and wolf. We hunt Idaho and Montana successfully every year for deer and elk but we spend more time killing predators in Idaho than anything. There is an ingrained mentality of hunting deer and elk in most hunters but Washington really is a predator hunting Mecca. I realize you can’t hunt wolves or use hounds on cats but you have probably the best spot and stalk bear hunting and season of any state. I think me and my boy will pay the out of state for bear this year. Washington has to be the best state in the nation to kill a cat without hounds. Coyotes numbers appear to be ridiculously high when I am driving around eastern Washington.Hunt what is in abundance and leave the deer alone or just strictly hunt for only trophy deer and kill the heck out of predators. You are in the best predator hunting in the lower 48 in my opinion. Shift your focus and enjoy. Killing stuff with fangs and claws is more fun and bears and lions taste great 👍
After reading the entire thread with some good ideas addressing the lack of mule deer, I came to the conclusion that the only option that we have is the one above by Idaho Guy. As BigMacc mentioned when the "game Department" changed to WDFW the policies changed also, and they didn't favor mule deer management of the past, they favored pro predator policies, along with multiple seasons, WDFW has done everything they could possibly do, to kill off the mule deer etc. and it will continue until upper management is replaced.
Bones idea would be getting back to the "Game Department" policies, WDFW will never go there. With the one exception of buying up land, and then pretending it is mule deer habitat, as they dump wolves on both ends
Predator control
Stop the antlerless harvest. (Little johnnie can learn to hunt like the rest of us did). 2nd deer tag, really?
Get a grip on Tribal harvest. You all are just going to improve the jerky market. Look what cutbacks did in the clockum (for elk).
Stop the multi season tag
Put funds into buying land to secure for range versus hiring wolf study guys.
This would be a start. I’m guessing very few hunters are willing to make the sacrifice. Every time I see someone excited about killing a doe I want to puke. Oh and in this woke world you can’t say anything because you might hurt someone’s feelings and you get lectured on how we have to stick together. Hold hands like those on the deck of the titanic.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on May 07, 2021, 06:55:04 AM
Post by: Ironhead on May 07, 2021, 07:04:30 AM
Post by: grundy53 on May 07, 2021, 07:09:36 AM
Hunter numbers across the West have risen, why are Washington hunter numbers in decline?Piss poor management. It's all a money grab for our game department. And we are so close to better states...
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Post by: Ironhead on May 07, 2021, 08:24:02 AM
Hunter numbers across the West have risen, why are Washington hunter numbers in decline?Piss poor management. It's all a money grab for our game department. And we are so close to better states...
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
I get it, but quite a few on this site think its the greatest management ever. ( Except for the Predators.) It is unfortunately so much more... than just the Predators.
Post by: Farmer72 on May 07, 2021, 08:51:14 AM
Post by: Ironhead on May 07, 2021, 09:11:18 AM
I don't know that I blame the WDFW for the piss poor management as much as I do the Game Commission. When the game Commission (Appointed by the Governor) don't listen to the recommendations of the biologists and just push their anti hunting agenda but still want to take your money hunting will never improve.Great point!
Post by: grundy53 on May 07, 2021, 09:32:21 AM
I don't know that I blame the WDFW for the piss poor management as much as I do the Game Commission. When the game Commission (Appointed by the Governor) don't listen to the recommendations of the biologists and just push their anti hunting agenda but still want to take your money hunting will never improve.Was it the commission or the department that put out so many antlerless tags when our deer herds were plummeting?
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Post by: Farmer72 on May 07, 2021, 10:23:26 AM
I don't know that I blame the WDFW for the piss poor management as much as I do the Game Commission. When the game Commission (Appointed by the Governor) don't listen to the recommendations of the biologists and just push their anti hunting agenda but still want to take your money hunting will never improve.Was it the commission or the department that put out so many antlerless tags when our deer herds were plummeting?
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
The commission is the one that decides the regulations. The WDFW makes recommendations. Just like the WDFW recommended the use of one power/ red dots for muzzleloader and the commissions said no. The commission is the ones that makes the ruling.
That is not to say WDFW didnt recommend the tags and the commission just said yes. I dont know who originally did it.
Post by: Special T on May 07, 2021, 12:51:54 PM
I don't know that I blame the WDFW for the piss poor management as much as I do the Game Commission. When the game Commission (Appointed by the Governor) don't listen to the recommendations of the biologists and just push their anti hunting agenda but still want to take your money hunting will never improve.
We do have some good commissioners, but Baker, Smith and Koontz are not our friends.. the last 2 haven't Ben confirmed and we all need to write of talk to out state senators and tell them not to confirm these 2 whack jobs.
Thornburg, McIsac were good Larry Carpenter is also good n
But as the chair he rarely votes. Molley linnville is pretty good but kind of squishy and not solidly pro sportsmem.