Washington Mule Deer

[bigmacc]

The first step in addressing a problem, is to admit that there is a problem, something WDFW will not do  in the Methow. The biologist in charge up there told me, a few years ago in a public meeting, that "there are just as many Mule Deer in the Methow as there has always been, people just don't get off the roads and look for them".

Sad situation!

Coming back and reading over this topic again conjured up another couple experiences Ive had years ago. A friend and I were doing some counting and post season scouting in a corridor in the upper valley that in my youth I remember my dad and I counting hundreds come through over a days time when conditions were right, in fact it was close to were I killed that big 4 by 5 this past season, its a spot where when conditions align just right it used to be amazing. I remember the winter kill of 67-68 where the weather blew in from the Frazier river in B.C then into the Methow, it was a year my dad, an uncle and myself watched over 2000 head pass through this same area, I remember my dad saying something to the effect of "those deer are on a mission to get from point A to point B, they know something we don't".  I remember it was 2 or 3 weeks after the season had closed I believe, this particular route mostly
 originates in Canada but has "fingers" of other routes that would join in here and there, like creeks flowing into a river as it flows. Where we were at was in a spot where not many "creeks" had yet entered the river, what we were seeing was close to the beginning in fact my dad said he could never remember seeing that many deer come through that area, even when conditions and timing were perfect, maybe a few hundred but not over 2000 and maybe farther down the line when the more "creeks" flowed into the "river", then you might see 2,3 or 400 come through over a few hour period but this was something my dad had not experienced. It was like they knew that historic winter blast was coming, Mother Nature was giving them a warning. I remember my dad and I being there weeks later when the blast hit, flash freeze down to 40-50 below in some spots. We had old 8mm movie footage that my dad filmed of livestock froze solid leaning up against trees and fenceposts, deer carcases scattered everywhere with flocks of birds, crows and eagles hovering while packs of coyotes scanvenged. I Remember stories of frozen pipes, engine blocks, machinery etc., if I remember right the temperature plunged 60 something degrees within hours. I can't remember how many thousands of deer were lost that winter but it took years for it to recover but the herd did recover with help from the locals and the Game Department. Anyway, Im rambling, 20 years or so ago, about 2 weeks prior to Thanksgiving I ran into some college students with a tracking device, they were parked up on an old logging road and sitting down the bank aways, I stopped and talked with them, they said they were monitoring deer movement or something to that effect. There was a WDFW employee there also, he said A LOT of deer were being seen in this particular area while they were doing this study or tracking, or whatever. I asked about how many they had seen while they were up there, he said they had been in the area off and on for about 7 days and had seen over 100 deer move through over the week, he began throwing numbers at me, study plans, and computer modeling stuff along with projections and other fancy lingo. I said, well, thats better than 50 I guess but not like it was. I pointed at a ridge about 250 yards away and told him that back in the late 70,s I sat right where we are standing now the week prior to Thanksgiving and counted over 250 deer walk through in an hours time, ate lunch, walked around a little to stretch my legs, sat back down and counted another 3-4 hundred move through before it got dark. He also said the herd was in great shape and numbers were stronger than ever.....until I told him that story, once again, he picked the wrong guy that day to try the ole "baffle em with bulls@#t" routine .

[Ironhead]

Ironhead, I'll go along with you on 4 legged predators, but where I hunted for 50 + years has nowhere close the the amount of hunters we had back in the 60s thru 90s, and the season was 3-4 weeks. Of course there are more different seasons, bow, muzzy etc, but still nowhere the hunters of the past.
John G

Thats because there are NO deer left to hunt in the Methow, compared to years past.

[ShaneTyTrey]

I have two different areas I hunt, one with kids and one that I personally hunt.  I see over 50 deer a day in both spots but mature bucks are far and few between.

I feel like considering our population and huntable land that is pretty good for OTC hunting.  If you want a true trophy experience you have to either get really lucky in the draw or go to one of the many other states that are draw only.  Making this state draw only is not going to increase your hunting opportunity it is only going to make it better when you finally do draw.

IMO it is nice to always have the option to hunt OTC in my home state and either get lucky in the draw or travel elsewhere if I want a trophy experience.

Just my

100% Agreement!

[skidynastar33]

I appreciate the people that care about the health of the Mule Deer herds in Eastern Washington.
To the people that want to be able to hunt them every year with no cap for 90% of the units on the East side of the State. Pull your heads out of the sand and wake up. Between the unlimited 2 legged predators  and the four legged predators they don't stand a chance in hell!

Who says comparing the herd to when it was at Its peak is healthy? Maybe that was overpopulated and more prone to disease and winter die offs cause there wasn’t enough winter range. We all want a higher population (myself included) but when you talk about the “the health of the herd” all anyone talks about is total population which isn’t the determining factor in the “health of the herd”. Maybe today’s herd is more stable? How much winter range forage do they have? How healthy are they entering winter?

[Skyvalhunter]

You are really reaching if you think todays herd is more stable.

[Jimmy33]

I personally dont want the opportunity in Washington to change. The only thing I would like to see is the multiseason tag to go away, and tag specifically for whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer. I like being able to hunt every year. I would rather restrict what we are currently doing than to go to draw tags.


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[Mtnwalker]

I appreciate the people that care about the health of the Mule Deer herds in Eastern Washington.
To the people that want to be able to hunt them every year with no cap for 90% of the units on the East side of the State. Pull your heads out of the sand and wake up. Between the unlimited 2 legged predators  and the four legged predators they don't stand a chance in hell!

Who says comparing the herd to when it was at Its peak is healthy? Maybe that was overpopulated and more prone to disease and winter die offs cause there wasn’t enough winter range. We all want a higher population (myself included) but when you talk about the “the health of the herd” all anyone talks about is total population which isn’t the determining factor in the “health of the herd”. Maybe today’s herd is more stable? How much winter range forage do they have? How healthy are they entering winter?

That's certainly a trendy argument with alot of today's newer Bio's, page 13 of the wolf reintroduction playbook. Claiming that winter range is full, meanwhile people who own the winter range are asking where all the deer have gone. I do agree that the glory days back in the 60's were possibly a spike at the tail end of predator poisoning and lucrative fur trades, heavy trapping etc etc.  But wdfw is currently using the robust ungulate numbers of the 1960's as a reason to further reduce mountain goat opportunity- citing the herd being well below historical high population- while simultaneously trying to say that they're doing a great job and mule deer and elk are all the healthier for it. Obviously you can't directly compare mountain goats to deer and elk, but the argument of herd health vs population can't go both ways IMO

[Rainier10]

I personally dont want the opportunity in Washington to change. The only thing I would like to see is the multiseason tag to go away, and tag specifically for whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer. I like being able to hunt every year. I would rather restrict what we are currently doing than to go to draw tags.


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The multiseason is a cash cow for the WDFW and tons of hunters wanted it.  "remember the good old days when the seasons were longer and you could hunt with whatever weapon you wanted."  Well the WDFW can't get the ungulate population back to where it was in the good old days but they did bring back the extended season.  This is one that I think people should be concerned about what they asked for.  The extended multiseason option is putting way more pressure on our ungulates no question about it.  I use the multiseason so I can carry the firearm for my kids without any questions but I do think for the benefit of the herd this is one that should go away.

[walt]

I'd be all in for pick a specie for deer: whitetail, blacktail, or mule deer, pick one.  WDFW could then sell multi-specie tags in addition to the multi-season...everyone wins 

[skidynastar33]

You are really reaching if you think todays herd is more stable.

I don’t necessarily think that. (Tho I think they are probably more steady then we think on this forum). I was more playing devils advocate that when ever people seam to talk about the health of the herd on here it’s the same thing. They more population and bigger bucks. And it’s more complicated then that

[duckmen1]

I'd be all in for pick a specie for deer: whitetail, blacktail, or mule deer, pick one.  WDFW could then sell multi-specie tags in addition to the multi-season...everyone wins 

In addition to the positive thought of more income for the state. I believe this would help the blacktail herd. Due to all the muledeer hunters from the westside that don't tag out come back and hunt the remainder of the season for blacktails. If it was species specific we would see lower blacktail harvest. And higher population.

[ghosthunter]

I'd be all in for pick a specie for deer: whitetail, blacktail, or mule deer, pick one.  WDFW could then sell multi-specie tags in addition to the multi-season...everyone wins 

In addition to the positive thought of more income for the state. I believe this would help the blacktail herd. Due to all the muledeer hunters from the westside that don't tag out come back and hunt the remainder of the season for blacktails. If it was species specific we would see lower blacktail harvest. And higher population.

Great idea.
Lots of folks double dipping. Different tag each species of deer. Make your pick for the year.

[OutHouse]

I think picking species may backfire. I've talked to several on the west side who told me if they had to pick a species they wouldn't hunt black tails and would opt for mule deer. Then it would be even worse in eastern WA.

[no.cen.wa]

Ironhead, I'll go along with you on 4 legged predators, but where I hunted for 50 + years has nowhere close the the amount of hunters we had back in the 60s thru 90s, and the season was 3-4 weeks. Of course there are more different seasons, bow, muzzy etc, but still nowhere the hunters of the past.
John G

Thats because there are NO deer left to hunt in the Methow, compared to years past.

Just saying, it's not the 2 legged predators, mis-management and 4 legged predators for sure!
John G

[duckmen1]

I think picking species may backfire. I've talked to several on the west side who told me if they had to pick a species they wouldn't hunt black tails and would opt for mule deer. Then it would be even worse in eastern WA.

Those hunters are already opting to hunt mule deer. That is my point. They are headed east and hunting the whole mule deer season and afterwards if not tagged out coming back hunting blacktails. If they had to choose and went muledeer and didn't tag out that's it. Therefor raising blacktail population a bit from late season harvest being lowered. Or only hunting blacktails and putting less pressure on muledeer. Sounds like a win to me on both sides. I've been talking about this idea for years.