Washington Mule Deer

[OutHouse]

I think picking species may backfire. I've talked to several on the west side who told me if they had to pick a species they wouldn't hunt black tails and would opt for mule deer. Then it would be even worse in eastern WA.

Those hunters are already opting to hunt mule deer. That is my point. They are headed east and hunting the whole mule deer season and afterwards if not tagged out coming back hunting blacktails. If they had to choose and went muledeer and didn't tag out that's it. Therefor raising blacktail population a bit from late season harvest being lowered. Or only hunting blacktails and putting less pressure on muledeer. Sounds like a win to me on both sides. I've been talking about this idea for years.

Yea I get that and your point is well taken and I could be wrong but black tails seem to be doing just fine. At this point my mind is thinking of perhaps overly simplistic solutions. I'm thinking shut down the methow for at least two years and then move to draw only. I have a place up there and have been a visitor to the valley for most of my life (34 y/o). When I was young, we would see at least a dozen different mule bucks hanging around the area. Now it is maybe 1 or 2. Some years none at all save for a few spikes still with their mother.

[Ironhead]

Open discussion is good, lets keep it going...

[vandeman17]

I would be fine picking a species, cutting way back or eliminating mule deer doe tags in some units and also having a meaningful discussion on predator control. Maybe anyone who fills a bear or cougar tag is put into a drawing for a late season mule deer hunt?

[OutHouse]

I would be fine picking a species, cutting way back or eliminating mule deer doe tags in some units and also having a meaningful discussion on predator control. Maybe anyone who fills a bear or cougar tag is put into a drawing for a late season mule deer hunt?

The predators are a huge issue. Have found several cashes over the last few years with multiple deer skulls in them etc. Back before hounds were outlawed there was a guy who lived just down the road from my place. His name was Rudy. I think he had some type of eastern European last name. Anyway, he used hounds and had pretty much rid the mazama area of any problem cats. Those were the years that mine and Rudy's close friend Bob was regularly shooting 25-30" bucks. I would love to get a bear out of that area but I only seem to see them during the summer. I could run into or see a half dozen between the time they wake up and August and then they just disappear from my hunting area. I'm no bear hunter but would take one if I could just find it.

On another note, what would 2-3 years of no hunting do for the herd? It would probably cause at least some level of comeback with perhaps hundreds or even thousands of bucks not being taken.

[Fishmaker57]

The first step in addressing a problem, is to admit that there is a problem, something WDFW will not do  in the Methow. The biologist in charge up there told me, a few years ago in a public meeting, that "there are just as many Mule Deer in the Methow as there has always been, people just don't get off the roads and look for them".

Sad situation!

There have been a bunch of great ideas discussed on this thread, of steps the state could take to begin addressing this issue, but I have to go back to my original post. WDFW has not and will not admit there is a problem in the Methow, or with Mule deer in general, so until it's "their" idea to address this problem, we will be stuck with their current mode of management:

Ignore the problem and maybe it will go away!

[MtnMuley]

The first step in addressing a problem, is to admit that there is a problem, something WDFW will not do  in the Methow. The biologist in charge up there told me, a few years ago in a public meeting, that "there are just as many Mule Deer in the Methow as there has always been, people just don't get off the roads and look for them".

Sad situation!

There have been a bunch of great ideas discussed on this thread, of steps the state could take to begin addressing this issue, but I have to go back to my original post. WDFW has not and will not admit there is a problem in the Methow, or with Mule deer in general, so until it's "their" idea to address this problem, we will be stuck with their current mode of management:

Ignore the problem and maybe it will go away!

They won't address the problem, because it interferes with their and CNW agenda on predators. That's a fact.

[BULLBLASTER]

I think picking species may backfire. I've talked to several on the west side who told me if they had to pick a species they wouldn't hunt black tails and would opt for mule deer. Then it would be even worse in eastern WA.

But think of the seasons that they could have for blacktail if there were less hunter numbers there (timing or length). Of course that assumes wdfw would actually manage each species independently. Hunter pressure could be directed with seasons.

[NOCK NOCK]

I personally dont want the opportunity in Washington to change. The only thing I would like to see is the multiseason tag to go away, and tag specifically for whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer. I like being able to hunt every year. I would rather restrict what we are currently doing than to go to draw tags.


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I would be fine picking a species, cutting way back or eliminating mule deer doe tags in some units and also having a meaningful discussion on predator control. Maybe anyone who fills a bear or cougar tag is put into a drawing for a late season mule deer hunt?

The predators are a huge issue. Have found several cashes over the last few years with multiple deer skulls in them etc. Back before hounds were outlawed there was a guy who lived just down the road from my place. His name was Rudy. I think he had some type of eastern European last name. Anyway, he used hounds and had pretty much rid the mazama area of any problem cats. Those were the years that mine and Rudy's close friend Bob was regularly shooting 25-30" bucks. I would love to get a bear out of that area but I only seem to see them during the summer. I could run into or see a half dozen between the time they wake up and August and then they just disappear from my hunting area. I'm no bear hunter but would take one if I could just find it.

On another note, what would 2-3 years of no hunting do for the herd? It would probably cause at least some level of comeback with perhaps hundreds or even thousands of bucks not being taken.

What herd?  Sure it may possibly help the Methow herd......But would really hurt other herds like the Entiat with the extra pressure they would receive..  I would never go for an idea like that.

[bigmacc]

Im not a fan of completely shutting down the Methow either, I think there are many other ideas being floated that would help without putting overwhelming pressure on other areas. If theres away of staying OTC I think it involves the every other year idea, at least it cuts out half the hunters. I'm all for doing away with multisession tags and doing away with quality permits in the Methow for 2-3 years but shutting it down completely would set a precedent that may come back to bite us in the future. I hope it stays OTC as well but I have seen first hand what this particular herd was and what it has become, something needs to be done about predators, bottom line. A compromise could easily be reached if both sides were open to discussion AND were honest. Im not calling for the "elimination" of predators in the Methow, I think they have a place just as we as hunters have our historic place as hunters and gatherers, now if we as hunters are going to be managed for "the betterment" of the herd then 4 legged predators need to be managed for the betterment of the herd. increase quotas a bit on cats and bears, offer x amount of special permit hound hunt tags in all units, etc. WDFW needs to do there job, manage the herd for sure but don't just manage us as hunters, manage both sides equally and do it with honesty and transparency....

[davew]

One way to reduce hunter harvest is to do the things this discussion has already covered:   shorter seasons, permit only hunts with limited tags, etc.   

Another way is to make the hunters less efficient, so that they still get to hunt but take fewer deer.   There are a lot ways to do this - 4 point minimum antler size, no rifle hunting, ban compound bows, flintlock/round ball muzzleloaders only, etc.     How would people feel about this approach?  This would still give hunters OTC tags every year.   

Obviously, controlling predator populations is the fastest way to recover the mule deer herd in the Methow, but that is probably not politically feasible when only ~4% of Washington residents hunt and Seattle area voters drive WDFW policies. 

[MIKEXRAY]

I would gladly go to a recurve / long bow only season , if it meant more opportunities. I think we should be restricting technology instead of increasing it.

[NOCK NOCK]

Positive this will get flamed. 

I agree there is a predator issue that lots talk about (mostly 4 legged variety)  BUT

Science tells me that with out prey, the predators can not/will not flourish for long. This pred/prey scenario has been playing out forever, not just 60's-2021's.

What are all the predators feeding on? The deer are not plentiful enough to support the masses of predators we keep hearing about.
How long before the preds. move on/ drop way off in numbers?

If you were dependent on making a kill to feed yourself(instead of going to Safeway), would you spend much time in a ungulate void area?

The herd issues are MUCH more far reaching than just 4 legged predators.

Control overharvest, late seasons, long seasons, expansion of human population, loss of range, poaching, multi season permits, vehicle strikes, roaming pets, wildfires, doe harvest, etc, etc.

[mburrows]

Positive this will get flamed. 

I agree there is a predator issue that lots talk about (mostly 4 legged variety)  BUT

Science tells me that with out prey, the predators can not/will not flourish for long. This pred/prey scenario has been playing out forever, not just 60's-2021's.

What are all the predators feeding on? The deer are not plentiful enough to support the masses of predators we keep hearing about.
How long before the preds. move on/ drop way off in numbers?

If you were dependent on making a kill to feed yourself(instead of going to Safeway), would you spend much time in a ungulate void area?

The herd issues are MUCH more far reaching than just 4 legged predators.

Control overharvest, late seasons, long seasons, expansion of human population, loss of range, poaching, multi season permits, vehicle strikes, roaming pets, wildfires, doe harvest, etc, etc.

100% agree

[Rainier10]

I’m not sure what the goal is here.

We need to increase herd numbers.

Why?

So we can kill more deer.

How?

Decrease the predators and we can kill more.

But then there are still less deer. Then what?

We need to reduce seasons and go permit only so there are more deer to kill.

Then what? Now you have more deer, shorter seasons and less opportunity but more deer to look at with a much longer off season because you have given up your season for a permit opportunity.

From what I’ve seen nobody is happy with the permit system we have. Are we going to like the new one better?

Im confused as to what the end goal is.

It sounds like people want lots of deer to look at and a really good hunting experience every 5-10 years when you get lucky enough to be allowed to hunt.

[hunter399]

I’m not sure what the goal is here.

We need to increase herd numbers.

Why?

So we can kill more deer.

How?

Decrease the predators and we can kill more.

But then there are still less deer. Then what?

We need to reduce seasons and go permit only so there are more deer to kill.

Then what? Now you have more deer, shorter seasons and less opportunity but more deer to look at with a much longer off season because you have given up your season for a permit opportunity.

From what I’ve seen nobody is happy with the permit system we have. Are we going to like the new one better?

Im confused as to what the end goal is.

It sounds like people want lots of deer to look at and a really good hunting experience every 5-10 years when you get lucky enough to be allowed to hunt.

I say stop antlerless harvest at all ,protect dem does at all cost. Keep everything else the same.
And let all the cards fall .
That's about all WDFW will do anyway.
#1 in the playbook buddy.
According to WDFW antlered harvest doesn't effect deer population.
At least thats what they keep telling me.