Post by: LDennis24 on June 15, 2021, 02:22:00 PM
I say do it! I recall my great grandmother telling a story of when she was a little girl and her and her friends were followed home by a huge black puma near Ocala Florida. Obviously a Jaguar, but she said that they made it back ok and a few days later a farm hand was in the field and saw it burst out of the trees after a deer and run back into the thick brush after it saw him in the field. I think she said they ended up hunting it down for safety of the children.
Post by: ducks4days on June 15, 2021, 02:32:25 PM
Jaguars thrive in Central and South America, reintroducing them in the continental US would do a disservice both to the jaguars and to the continental US.
Post by: Taco280AI on June 15, 2021, 02:48:10 PM
Post by: Hilltop123 on June 15, 2021, 02:52:11 PM
Post by: idaho guy on June 15, 2021, 03:00:35 PM
I'm all for introducing wolves, grizz, cougars, and other predators... in liberal cities. Golden Gate Park could use some. So could Central Park.
:yeah: Truth! Our only hope is an abundance of predators in the liberal cities. They need to live with them. Jaguars would be cool but they(extremists living in liberal cities) have an obsession with creating an abundance of predators. Its always preached in the name of the "balance of nature." we created an imbalance in nature called the north american wildlife model. Where we always had an imbalance(surplus) of animals to hunt every year, creating revenue from tags to fund managment for future surplus animals for future generations. The extremists pushing this know how great it works and putting in too many apex predators breaks the model, just their way of getting rid of hunting. They just need to live with predators in the backyard for a while or they will never stop pushing them on rural west.
Post by: LDennis24 on June 15, 2021, 03:34:51 PM
Why do people have such a *censored* for reintroducing species which have been extirpated from places? How would this population survive without a continuously connected genetic group on the landscape? How would they fare competing with native predators such as wolves, cougars, and bears? Do they have the genetic memory to target wild prey and not focus on livestock?
Jaguars thrive in Central and South America, reintroducing them in the continental US would do a disservice both to the jaguars and to the continental US.
I feel like you don't fully understand what kind of environment jaguars live in. And maybe you didn't read the whole article. They clearly would not be reintroducing them into areas that have wolves as that is not the right environment for them. Maybe they will cross paths with red wolves, and Arizona wolves, maybe not. What the article doesnt mention is that there is already a population of jaguars in the U.S. around the states bordering the gulf. People see them every so often. They have always been there. They would probably have ZERO problems establishing in area's like South Texas and Louisiana, Mississippi etc. All this whiny ranting over liberals wanting predators and blah blah blah about competing with other predators. Read a little more about it. They would most likely live where literally NO wolves live. Except for Arizona where jaguars are already found living in the same areas as wolves. There are very few cougars left in the South from the historical extermination attempts and bears are few in the South as well. If you consider yourself a true sportsman then you shouldn't mind helping out a species of animal that is endangered and giving up some areas for their benefit. I still agree with hound hunting cougars and bears. I agree with hunting wolves. I don't agree with exterminating an entire species from an area. Not helping them is a disservice to conservation which is what we as hunters should stand for. If your just into killing stuff with a gun go to a ranch somewhere and pay to shoot an ear tagged animal. I for one enjoy wildlife and the experience of seeing them in the wild acting naturally. Don't be greedy...
Post by: JimmyHoffa on June 15, 2021, 03:48:21 PM
I think mostly it would be for Arizona and New Mexico as those states have reasonable amounts of public land. The other states are comprised mostly of private lands with agriculture. I'd guess it wouldn't be successful it they try establishing a large breeding population of jaguars in an area broken into 1,500-5,000 acre ranches all running cattle.Why do people have such a *censored* for reintroducing species which have been extirpated from places? How would this population survive without a continuously connected genetic group on the landscape? How would they fare competing with native predators such as wolves, cougars, and bears? Do they have the genetic memory to target wild prey and not focus on livestock?
Jaguars thrive in Central and South America, reintroducing them in the continental US would do a disservice both to the jaguars and to the continental US.
I feel like you don't fully understand what kind of environment jaguars live in. And maybe you didn't read the whole article. They clearly would not be reintroducing them into areas that have wolves as that is not the right environment for them. Maybe they will cross paths with red wolves, and Arizona wolves, maybe not. What the article doesnt mention is that there is already a population of jaguars in the U.S. around the states bordering the gulf. People see them every so often. They have always been there. They would probably have ZERO problems establishing in area's like South Texas and Louisiana, Mississippi etc. All this whiny ranting over liberals wanting predators and blah blah blah about competing with other predators. Read a little more about it. They would most likely live where literally NO wolves live. Except for Arizona where jaguars are already found living in the same areas as wolves. There are very few cougars left in the South from the historical extermination attempts and bears are few in the South as well. If you consider yourself a true sportsman then you shouldn't mind helping out a species of animal that is endangered and giving up some areas for their benefit. I still agree with hound hunting cougars and bears. I agree with hunting wolves. I don't agree with exterminating an entire species from an area. Not helping them is a disservice to conservation which is what we as hunters should stand for. If your just into killing stuff with a gun go to a ranch somewhere and pay to shoot an ear tagged animal. I for one enjoy wildlife and the experience of seeing them in the wild acting naturally. Don't be greedy...
Post by: LDennis24 on June 15, 2021, 03:53:56 PM
Post by: idaho guy on June 15, 2021, 04:47:50 PM
Post by: KFhunter on June 15, 2021, 05:06:34 PM
Post by: ducks4days on June 15, 2021, 05:13:57 PM
Why do people have such a *censored* for reintroducing species which have been extirpated from places? How would this population survive without a continuously connected genetic group on the landscape? How would they fare competing with native predators such as wolves, cougars, and bears? Do they have the genetic memory to target wild prey and not focus on livestock?
Jaguars thrive in Central and South America, reintroducing them in the continental US would do a disservice both to the jaguars and to the continental US.
I feel like you don't fully understand what kind of environment jaguars live in. And maybe you didn't read the whole article. They clearly would not be reintroducing them into areas that have wolves as that is not the right environment for them. Maybe they will cross paths with red wolves, and Arizona wolves, maybe not. What the article doesnt mention is that there is already a population of jaguars in the U.S. around the states bordering the gulf. People see them every so often. They have always been there. They would probably have ZERO problems establishing in area's like South Texas and Louisiana, Mississippi etc. All this whiny ranting over liberals wanting predators and blah blah blah about competing with other predators. Read a little more about it. They would most likely live where literally NO wolves live. Except for Arizona where jaguars are already found living in the same areas as wolves. There are very few cougars left in the South from the historical extermination attempts and bears are few in the South as well. If you consider yourself a true sportsman then you shouldn't mind helping out a species of animal that is endangered and giving up some areas for their benefit. I still agree with hound hunting cougars and bears. I agree with hunting wolves. I don't agree with exterminating an entire species from an area. Not helping them is a disservice to conservation which is what we as hunters should stand for. If your just into killing stuff with a gun go to a ranch somewhere and pay to shoot an ear tagged animal. I for one enjoy wildlife and the experience of seeing them in the wild acting naturally. Don't be greedy...
Dang dude, if I struck a nerve I apologize.
If they already have established populations in the area why do they need to be reintroduced or else face extermination? If the land cant support the numbers as-is, what would adding more do to help?
[/quote]
What the article doesnt mention is that there is already a population of jaguars in the U.S. around the states bordering the gulf. People see them every so often. They have always been there. They would probably have ZERO problems establishing in area's like South Texas and Louisiana, Mississippi etc.
[/quote]
Can you explain that because the two statements contradict each other. Which states bordering the gulf specifically, because you named 3 of the 5. Why do you expect populations in those areas to have "ZERO problems" establishing when they cant do it on their own? There is no rocky mountains or great desert between them. If the land is capable of sustaining them they would be there already.
If you want jaguars on that landscape, the best thing we can do is improve the habitat and make it a place where the jaguars which currently exist on the landscape can actually survive. Not every animal needs to exist in every place, and trying to force a population into an area which cant support them spells disaster. There is plenty of evidence that the landscape cant support them and neither you or the article have proven that it can.
Post by: Platensek-po on June 15, 2021, 05:44:35 PM
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lets-rebuild-the-u-s-jaguar-population-mdash-yes-jaguars/
I say do it! I recall my great grandmother telling a story of when she was a little girl and her and her friends were followed home by a huge black puma near Ocala Florida. Obviously a Jaguar, but she said that they made it back ok and a few days later a farm hand was in the field and saw it burst out of the trees after a deer and run back into the thick brush after it saw him in the field. I think she said they ended up hunting it down for safety of the children.
I hate to point this out but it was clearly a mountain lion not a Jaguar. There have been no jaguars in florid for a very very long time. The black “panther” of Florida is just a melanistic mountain lion. Other than that I see no problem with jaguars in the places mentioned. Texas probably has about every other species on the planet running around down there so what’s one more? :dunno:
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on June 15, 2021, 06:56:34 PM
Post by: KFhunter on June 15, 2021, 07:43:56 PM
"Black Panther" just means a black or nearly black cat, but isn't a species.
The only species of cat that can be black is Jaguars and Leopards.
Post by: Dan-o on June 15, 2021, 09:46:12 PM
Why do people have such a *censored* for reintroducing species which have been extirpated from places? How would this population survive without a continuously connected genetic group on the landscape? How would they fare competing with native predators such as wolves, cougars, and bears? Do they have the genetic memory to target wild prey and not focus on livestock?
Jaguars thrive in Central and South America, reintroducing them in the continental US would do a disservice both to the jaguars and to the continental US.
I feel like you don't fully understand what kind of environment jaguars live in. And maybe you didn't read the whole article. They clearly would not be reintroducing them into areas that have wolves as that is not the right environment for them. Maybe they will cross paths with red wolves, and Arizona wolves, maybe not. What the article doesnt mention is that there is already a population of jaguars in the U.S. around the states bordering the gulf. People see them every so often. They have always been there. They would probably have ZERO problems establishing in area's like South Texas and Louisiana, Mississippi etc. All this whiny ranting over liberals wanting predators and blah blah blah about competing with other predators. Read a little more about it. They would most likely live where literally NO wolves live. Except for Arizona where jaguars are already found living in the same areas as wolves. There are very few cougars left in the South from the historical extermination attempts and bears are few in the South as well. If you consider yourself a true sportsman then you shouldn't mind helping out a species of animal that is endangered and giving up some areas for their benefit. I still agree with hound hunting cougars and bears. I agree with hunting wolves. I don't agree with exterminating an entire species from an area. Not helping them is a disservice to conservation which is what we as hunters should stand for. If your just into killing stuff with a gun go to a ranch somewhere and pay to shoot an ear tagged animal. I for one enjoy wildlife and the experience of seeing them in the wild acting naturally. Don't be greedy...
I am 100% against it, and here is why:
Specifically, you don't understand the lying dirtbags behind reintroduction.
Remember wolves........ 15o wolves and 15 breeding pairs.
Oh wait.... we meant 300 wolves and 30 breeding pairs.
Oh wait..... We meant more than that, and will continually sue you for years while delaying delisting.
If wolf introduction taught me anything, it's that you can count on the reintro folks to lie like nobody's business.
I am not anti-wolf, but I am 100% against these dirtbags.
Post by: grundy53 on June 15, 2021, 11:48:17 PM
ExactlyWhy do people have such a *censored* for reintroducing species which have been extirpated from places? How would this population survive without a continuously connected genetic group on the landscape? How would they fare competing with native predators such as wolves, cougars, and bears? Do they have the genetic memory to target wild prey and not focus on livestock?
Jaguars thrive in Central and South America, reintroducing them in the continental US would do a disservice both to the jaguars and to the continental US.
I feel like you don't fully understand what kind of environment jaguars live in. And maybe you didn't read the whole article. They clearly would not be reintroducing them into areas that have wolves as that is not the right environment for them. Maybe they will cross paths with red wolves, and Arizona wolves, maybe not. What the article doesnt mention is that there is already a population of jaguars in the U.S. around the states bordering the gulf. People see them every so often. They have always been there. They would probably have ZERO problems establishing in area's like South Texas and Louisiana, Mississippi etc. All this whiny ranting over liberals wanting predators and blah blah blah about competing with other predators. Read a little more about it. They would most likely live where literally NO wolves live. Except for Arizona where jaguars are already found living in the same areas as wolves. There are very few cougars left in the South from the historical extermination attempts and bears are few in the South as well. If you consider yourself a true sportsman then you shouldn't mind helping out a species of animal that is endangered and giving up some areas for their benefit. I still agree with hound hunting cougars and bears. I agree with hunting wolves. I don't agree with exterminating an entire species from an area. Not helping them is a disservice to conservation which is what we as hunters should stand for. If your just into killing stuff with a gun go to a ranch somewhere and pay to shoot an ear tagged animal. I for one enjoy wildlife and the experience of seeing them in the wild acting naturally. Don't be greedy...
I am 100% against it, and here is why:
Specifically, you don't understand the lying dirtbags behind reintroduction.
Remember wolves........ 15o wolves and 15 breeding pairs.
Oh wait.... we meant 300 wolves and 30 breeding pairs.
Oh wait..... We meant more than that, and will continually sue you for years while delaying delisting.
If wolf introduction taught me anything, it's that you can count on the reintro folks to lie like nobody's business.
I am not anti-wolf, but I am 100% against these dirtbags.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Post by: zwickeyman on June 16, 2021, 05:06:34 AM
Why do people have such a *censored* for reintroducing species which have been extirpated from places? How would this population survive without a continuously connected genetic group on the landscape? How would they fare competing with native predators such as wolves, cougars, and bears? Do they have the genetic memory to target wild prey and not focus on livestock?
Jaguars thrive in Central and South America, reintroducing them in the continental US would do a disservice both to the jaguars and to the continental US.
I feel like you don't fully understand what kind of environment jaguars live in. And maybe you didn't read the whole article. They clearly would not be reintroducing them into areas that have wolves as that is not the right environment for them. Maybe they will cross paths with red wolves, and Arizona wolves, maybe not. What the article doesnt mention is that there is already a population of jaguars in the U.S. around the states bordering the gulf. People see them every so often. They have always been there. They would probably have ZERO problems establishing in area's like South Texas and Louisiana, Mississippi etc. All this whiny ranting over liberals wanting predators and blah blah blah about competing with other predators. Read a little more about it. They would most likely live where literally NO wolves live. Except for Arizona where jaguars are already found living in the same areas as wolves. There are very few cougars left in the South from the historical extermination attempts and bears are few in the South as well. If you consider yourself a true sportsman then you shouldn't mind helping out a species of animal that is endangered and giving up some areas for their benefit. I still agree with hound hunting cougars and bears. I agree with hunting wolves. I don't agree with exterminating an entire species from an area. Not helping them is a disservice to conservation which is what we as hunters should stand for. If your just into killing stuff with a gun go to a ranch somewhere and pay to shoot an ear tagged animal. I for one enjoy wildlife and the experience of seeing them in the wild acting naturally. Don't be greedy...
I am 100% against it, and here is why:
Specifically, you don't understand the lying dirtbags behind reintroduction.
Remember wolves........ 15o wolves and 15 breeding pairs.
Oh wait.... we meant 300 wolves and 30 breeding pairs.
Oh wait..... We meant more than that, and will continually sue you for years while delaying delisting.
If wolf introduction taught me anything, it's that you can count on the reintro folks to lie like nobody's business.
I am not anti-wolf, but I am 100% against these dirtbags.
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
Post by: nwwanderer on June 16, 2021, 05:44:02 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on June 16, 2021, 07:01:14 AM
Post by: Mudman on June 16, 2021, 07:35:02 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 16, 2021, 08:11:27 AM
Post by: LDennis24 on June 16, 2021, 08:31:58 AM
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lets-rebuild-the-u-s-jaguar-population-mdash-yes-jaguars/
I say do it! I recall my great grandmother telling a story of when she was a little girl and her and her friends were followed home by a huge black puma near Ocala Florida. Obviously a Jaguar, but she said that they made it back ok and a few days later a farm hand was in the field and saw it burst out of the trees after a deer and run back into the thick brush after it saw him in the field. I think she said they ended up hunting it down for safety of the children.
I hate to point this out but it was clearly a mountain lion not a Jaguar. There have been no jaguars in florid for a very very long time. The black “panther” of Florida is just a melanistic mountain lion. Other than that I see no problem with jaguars in the places mentioned. Texas probably has about every other species on the planet running around down there so what’s one more? :dunno:
Actually it was clearly a Jaguar, the only cat known as a panther, that had traveled outside it's territory as she recalled also how it had the rosette pattern on its fur when they displayed it to everyone on the farm. She said another one was killed by some workers in Zephyrhills but it was regular colored. This was in the 30's and early 40's. Three S's applied, same with alligator and turtle meat. It was fair game to anyone. She said she saw snapping turtles three feet across all the time brought home by guys in the swamp. She is still alive and turning 100 this year.
Hey Ducks, when I said there were already populations in Arizona and that area I recalled reading an article that said they had tracked several that wander from Mexico into the area. I didn't realize that none of them stayed in that area. Like I stated. I did some more reading into it. I just don't think it makes sense to argue that all conservationists are bad conservationists etc. That's that mentally I was talking about, like all cops are bad cops. That's how that sounds. People who wanna help animals repopulate are not crooks and liars. Don't put everyone in the same category. Cops aren't all Derek Chauvins are they! This was simply an idea, that I thought, made sense to help them out. They were here once before, and it wouldn't hurt for them to be re-established in those areas. Like was mentioned, Texas has every other animal running around, why not have another native one?
Post by: bearpaw on June 16, 2021, 08:37:34 AM
Post by: LDennis24 on June 16, 2021, 08:42:23 AM
A lot of species were INTENTIONALLY extirpated from the landscape by man and those instances measures should be taken to return them to the landscape ie wolves and griz (as much as im not a fan of them). In instances where the changed landscape has forced their demise whether cause by man or not i see no reason to attempt to force it. Take that money and put it into other species or habitat restoration. Im not versed in jaguar knowledge to be able to make an educated choice one way or the other.
:yeah:. I feel that the areas they would be in would be few and far between but they, like other species we help out, deserve to be given a second chance. I don't believe they would be so successful that it would be regrettable ten years from now like the wolves are! Lol I HATE wolves FYI... They belong in National parks and such but not all over the map. I feel the same way about the jaguar. They would do just fine in large open areas in Arizona and Texas and New Mexico. Maybe even the Boykin Springs and Sabine National Forest area of East Texas and Louisiana.
Post by: KFhunter on June 16, 2021, 08:45:02 AM
Post by: LDennis24 on June 16, 2021, 08:47:36 AM
The problem with reintroductions is they always want to use it as a reason to close access and activities currently allowed, it's a tool that is widely used for this purpose, this is the primary reason I am opposed to most reintroductions! :twocents:
That's correct, somehow everything gets turned into a political gain competition and is used against one group or another. It's a sad reality, especially these days, that if someone can benefit from being outspoken about it then they will use it to harm other user groups etc.
And KFHunter, I'm not even joking, I hope that happens! I hope that Russia tries it with all the mammoth DNA they are finding in the permafrost! They could live in the far East of Russia, no problem! Lol
Post by: bearpaw on June 16, 2021, 11:37:56 AM
The problem with reintroductions is they always want to use it as a reason to close access and activities currently allowed, it's a tool that is widely used for this purpose, this is the primary reason I am opposed to most reintroductions! :twocents:
That's correct, somehow everything gets turned into a political gain competition and is used against one group or another. It's a sad reality, especially these days, that if someone can benefit from being outspoken about it then they will use it to harm other user groups etc.
And KFHunter, I'm not even joking, I hope that happens! I hope that Russia tries it with all the mammoth DNA they are finding in the permafrost! They could live in the far East of Russia, no problem! Lol
Imagine, if you could go T-rex hunting on a Caribbean island and go wooly mammoth hunting in the remote reaches of the north, sign me up, sounds like fun!
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on June 16, 2021, 12:01:10 PM
I bet you you all were fired up when turkeys and elk were added to NE Washington in the 1990's. :chuckle:
Quit painting with a broad brush. Most of you all support reintroductions of most sorts. Its the idea of jaguars that gets your hackles up. If they were augmenting desert bighorns you would all be on board.
Post by: bearpaw on June 16, 2021, 12:24:23 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on June 16, 2021, 12:27:40 PM
WAcoyote, I think a big difference is whether it's big predators or non-predators, and what the impacts will be. I haven't seen any large land grabs for turkeys, antelope, or sheep, perhaps if the wolves, grizzlies, and jaguar introductions were handled differently you wouldn't see the opposition! Just sayin! Give that a little thought?:yeah: Nailed it Dale.
Post by: Dan-o on June 16, 2021, 12:35:06 PM
Lots of strong opinions against reintroductions here... I didn't hear you guys bitching when the Colville's reintroduced Antelope, I don't hear anyone screaming about them reintroducing Lynx...
I bet you you all were fired up when turkeys and elk were added to NE Washington in the 1990's. :chuckle:
Quit painting with a broad brush. Most of you all support reintroductions of most sorts. Its the idea of jaguars that gets your hackles up. If they were augmenting desert bighorns you would all be on board.
Who did the antelope reintroductions put out of business?
I was personally disgusted by the wolf intro virtue signalling crowd.
They were perfectly willing to let others pay the price.
Pretty much my definition of dirtbags.
Post by: LDennis24 on June 16, 2021, 01:16:04 PM
Post by: andrew_in_idaho on June 16, 2021, 01:25:26 PM
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Post by: bearpaw on June 16, 2021, 01:52:57 PM
I seem to recall an episode of MeatEater pod sometime last fall or winter with a big cat bio from Texas who said that while Jaguars might occasionally wander into the states in the SW desert that is probably historically the very northern fringe of their range. It was an interesting listen
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I've watched some stuff about them also, you are correct, the southern edge of the US is the northern edge of their range.
Post by: bearpaw on June 16, 2021, 02:00:57 PM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on June 16, 2021, 02:14:49 PM
WAcoyote, I think a big difference is whether it's big predators or non-predators, and what the impacts will be. I haven't seen any large land grabs for turkeys, antelope, or sheep, perhaps if the wolves, grizzlies, and jaguar introductions were handled differently you wouldn't see the opposition! Just sayin! Give that a little thought?Yep- that's fair. Big carnivores get people pretty excited and stir emotions. I just thought it was funny that a bunch of folks get on here and say they're against species reintroductions... but what they really mean is that they are against carnivore reintroductions.
I agree that the ESA has been misused by agency folks as well as animal rights groups. I just hate to see actual conservation lose support from hunters because they're jaded
Post by: bearpaw on June 16, 2021, 02:47:52 PM
WAcoyote, I think a big difference is whether it's big predators or non-predators, and what the impacts will be. I haven't seen any large land grabs for turkeys, antelope, or sheep, perhaps if the wolves, grizzlies, and jaguar introductions were handled differently you wouldn't see the opposition! Just sayin! Give that a little thought?Yep- that's fair. Big carnivores get people pretty excited and stir emotions. I just thought it was funny that a bunch of folks get on here and say they're against species reintroductions... but what they really mean is that they are against carnivore reintroductions.
I agree that the ESA has been misused by agency folks as well as animal rights groups. I just hate to see actual conservation lose support from hunters because they're jaded
:yeah: I don't really have a problem with having a few wolves around as long as they are managed in a manner to fit in with our modern ecosystems. Idaho needs to reduce the population more in certain areas but they will probably eventually get there, Washington I'm pretty sure is a lost cause, the moose and caribou have already suffered the consequences of favoring one specie over another! It's unfortunate!
Post by: grundy53 on June 16, 2021, 05:36:06 PM
WAcoyote, I think a big difference is whether it's big predators or non-predators, and what the impacts will be. I haven't seen any large land grabs for turkeys, antelope, or sheep, perhaps if the wolves, grizzlies, and jaguar introductions were handled differently you wouldn't see the opposition! Just sayin! Give that a little thought?Well said!
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Post by: grundy53 on June 16, 2021, 05:37:22 PM
Just to be clear, I'm not opposed to jaguars, or any other naturally occurring critter, I wished we had enough jaguars, antelope, and desert bighorns to open hunting season and hunt a few of them, what I'm opposed to is the bureaucracy and inevitable "conditions" that come with reintroductions, especially big carnivore reintroductions! Consider what has happened with WOLVES OR GRIZZLIES and how they have been handled it pretty well sums it up!
Exactly! Plus the litigation... no thanks!
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Post by: nwwanderer on June 16, 2021, 08:23:25 PM
Post by: KFhunter on June 16, 2021, 09:43:40 PM
Post by: Bill W on June 17, 2021, 07:10:40 AM
Post by: lokidog on June 17, 2021, 07:23:00 AM
I think your correct Hoffa, they would most likely continue moving East from these areas but there is nothing to show that they would populate very easily. But historically they have been found clear to the Atlantic in the U.S.
If conditions were good for them, they would repopulate on their own. If they do, fine, otherwise quit wasting sportsman's dollars on this stuff!
Post by: LDennis24 on June 17, 2021, 07:45:39 AM
Literally just posted yesterday, so weird.
Post by: LDennis24 on June 17, 2021, 07:53:51 AM
I think your correct Hoffa, they would most likely continue moving East from these areas but there is nothing to show that they would populate very easily. But historically they have been found clear to the Atlantic in the U.S.
If conditions were good for them, they would repopulate on their own. If they do, fine, otherwise quit wasting sportsman's dollars on this stuff!
C'mon man, you can't say that. That blanket statement would have to also encompass deer and elk habitat right? If that was always the koto then there wouldn't be alot of elk in Eastern Washington. There wouldn't be alot of mile deer in some areas where they need critical wintering habitat etc. People just don't like the idea that it's a very large predator and that it could turn into a bias propaganda puppet. It may not even happen. I just wondered if people would enjoy seeing them in the wild and maybe one day even be able to hunt them! They could even find donors to fund the majority of it I'm sure.
Post by: ducks4days on June 17, 2021, 08:09:40 AM
Post by: bigmacc on June 17, 2021, 03:40:32 PM
Post by: idaho guy on June 19, 2021, 03:23:08 PM
Ill admit I haven't read through this whole thread but at face value, my opinion, just another way to do away with "game animals", short and sweet, "if there are no animals to hunt (elk, deer, moose etc, any animals you eat) and "nature" is taking care of the balance, then why do you all need these guns". Something to ponder. Wolves, cougars, predators in general, even with growing human population and expansion, they want more predators? Once again, something to ponder.
I think this is a true agenda item of many extreme groups constantly pushing more predators into the landscape. It seemed too much like a conspiracy theory to me for a while but watching their actions I have come to believe this is a Real agenda item of these groups. I think it would be super cool to have jaguars in the southwest but have same concerns already mentioned. It was interesting to see these groups “support” caribou in north Idaho and Washington when they felt like they could use it to close vast areas to logging and snowmobiles etc etc. I don’t think it worked as well as hoped and as soon as we got wolves they basically screwed the the caribou in favor of more and more wolves. It appears they have little regard for the actual species but just what that species can do for their bigger agenda. Wolves and the lawsuits we dealt with and they kept moving the population numbers higher and higher no population number was enough. This all convinced me they are trying to break the North American wildlife model with predators and basically eliminating any surplus ungulates to hunt. I’m ok with wolves in Idaho it’s been interesting and fun to have another animal to hunt and trap and managed at the RIGHT level I don’t mind having them. My first reaction is to get super excited when I see something about re-introducing Jaguar. I would love to see one in the wild. Better yet would to be able to chase one with hounds and not to shoot it but just catch one would be amazing. But then I get nervous when I think about how wolves and grizzlies have been handled. They just want MORE never management. One of there favorite tricks is to use re introduction of endangered species is to shut down vast areas to almost any use. There is a lot of history with large predator reintroduction that should make any hunter and conservationist nervous.
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 19, 2021, 05:27:09 PM
I kind of went off on the predator thing :chuckle: hits a nerve every time! I do think helping the jaguars recover would be great. I was just agreeing that we actually need a lot of these predators near and around the liberal areas to get some reasonable controls back. Jaguars in those areas mentioned would be great.
It'd be one thing if we could hunt them, and we know that would never happen. A Jaguar is like a cougar on steroids. We don't need them here. We don't need half of the predators we already have, as a matter of fact.
Post by: nwwanderer on June 20, 2021, 06:34:33 AM
Post by: bigmacc on June 22, 2021, 10:00:28 AM
Ill admit I haven't read through this whole thread but at face value, my opinion, just another way to do away with "game animals", short and sweet, "if there are no animals to hunt (elk, deer, moose etc, any animals you eat) and "nature" is taking care of the balance, then why do you all need these guns". Something to ponder. Wolves, cougars, predators in general, even with growing human population and expansion, they want more predators? Once again, something to ponder.
I think this is a true agenda item of many extreme groups constantly pushing more predators into the landscape. It seemed too much like a conspiracy theory to me for a while but watching their actions I have come to believe this is a Real agenda item of these groups. I think it would be super cool to have jaguars in the southwest but have same concerns already mentioned. It was interesting to see these groups “support” caribou in north Idaho and Washington when they felt like they could use it to close vast areas to logging and snowmobiles etc etc. I don’t think it worked as well as hoped and as soon as we got wolves they basically screwed the the caribou in favor of more and more wolves. It appears they have little regard for the actual species but just what that species can do for their bigger agenda. Wolves and the lawsuits we dealt with and they kept moving the population numbers higher and higher no population number was enough. This all convinced me they are trying to break the North American wildlife model with predators and basically eliminating any surplus ungulates to hunt. I’m ok with wolves in Idaho it’s been interesting and fun to have another animal to hunt and trap and managed at the RIGHT level I don’t mind having them. My first reaction is to get super excited when I see something about re-introducing Jaguar. I would love to see one in the wild. Better yet would to be able to chase one with hounds and not to shoot it but just catch one would be amazing. But then I get nervous when I think about how wolves and grizzlies have been handled. They just want MORE never management. One of there favorite tricks is to use re introduction of endangered species is to shut down vast areas to almost any use. There is a lot of history with large predator reintroduction that should make any hunter and conservationist nervous.
I feel the same way, I have never been a "conspiracy" guy, have always been one to watch, listen and ask questions and sooner or later things start to make sense, what makes sense to me is there is big money in different groups that back a lot of these "predator" issues, BIG money! A lot of these groups are anti hunting/anti gun and love the fact that bringing back natural predators will do away with hunting and eventually help out with eroding the 2A and some of these groups have politicians in their back pockets. The coddling AND reintroduction of multiple predators into the landscape is in no way a positive if you have a hunting heritage and if it continues, it will have an effect on 2A rights down the road, mark my words, maybe not in our lifetime but for sure our kids or grandkids, its just another small, inconspicuous seed that will be planted, banked and used down the road to accomplish bigger agendas, I'm a firm NO to any more predator introductions, we already have many who's numbers are exploding... :twocents:
Post by: ibuyre on July 17, 2021, 06:51:16 PM
I think melanistic mt lion is a myth.
"Black Panther" just means a black or nearly black cat, but isn't a species.
The only species of cat that can be black is Jaguars and Leopards.
Really? Because I know people that have seen black cats hear in Wa. Shoot I saw a nearly black bobcat (lighting might have been part of it), if it was bigger and lol had a tail it would have been easy to think it was a Jaguar it was spotted and black.
Post by: Alchase on July 17, 2021, 07:01:16 PM
No such thing as a black mountain lion.
Jaguars and leopards do.
What could possibly go wrong with reintroducing a apex predator 2-3 times the weight of a cougar, into a habitat owned by cougars and coyotes for a a hundred years?
We could start with downtown San Francisco
:tup:
Post by: Humptulips on July 17, 2021, 07:20:26 PM
Mountain lions do not have the Melanistic gene.
No such thing as a black mountain lion.
Jaguars and leopards do.
What could possibly go wrong with reintroducing a apex predator 2-3 times the weight of a cougar, into a habitat owned by cougars and coyotes for a a hundred years?
We could start with downtown San Francisco
:tup:
Melanism is a genetic mutation. I see no reason why cougars are precluded from having a mutated gene.
Last year I saw a cougar cross the road. Got a pretty good look at it and it sure looked black to me. I've seen quite a few and I never saw anything like it. Another person said they saw a black cougar in the same area.
I wish I had a picture but it was there and then gone.
Post by: Alchase on July 17, 2021, 07:50:21 PM
Mountain lions do not have the Melanistic gene.
No such thing as a black mountain lion.
Jaguars and leopards do.
What could possibly go wrong with reintroducing a apex predator 2-3 times the weight of a cougar, into a habitat owned by cougars and coyotes for a a hundred years?
We could start with downtown San Francisco
:tup:
Melanism is a genetic mutation. I see no reason why cougars are precluded from having a mutated gene.
Last year I saw a cougar cross the road. Got a pretty good look at it and it sure looked black to me. I've seen quite a few and I never saw anything like it. Another person said they saw a black cougar in the same area.
I wish I had a picture but it was there and then gone.
“ Mammals with this mutation are known as melanistic. In big cats, black panthers are actually jaguars or leopards. If you look closely enough, or have enough bright light, you can see spots amongst the dark fur. There has never been a confirmed or documented case of a melanistic mountain lion in the United States. Mistaken identities may also occur with the cougar's smaller relative, the bobcat. Bobcats can be melanistic too, but this is extremely rare with only 12 reported sightings across all of North America. ”
https://emammal.si.edu/
Post by: Wetwoodshunter on July 17, 2021, 09:32:21 PM
Mountain lions do not have the Melanistic gene.
No such thing as a black mountain lion.
Jaguars and leopards do.
What could possibly go wrong with reintroducing a apex predator 2-3 times the weight of a cougar, into a habitat owned by cougars and coyotes for a a hundred years?
We could start with downtown San Francisco
:tup:
Melanism is a genetic mutation. I see no reason why cougars are precluded from having a mutated gene.
Last year I saw a cougar cross the road. Got a pretty good look at it and it sure looked black to me. I've seen quite a few and I never saw anything like it. Another person said they saw a black cougar in the same area.
I wish I had a picture but it was there and then gone.
“ Mammals with this mutation are known as melanistic. In big cats, black panthers are actually jaguars or leopards. If you look closely enough, or have enough bright light, you can see spots amongst the dark fur. There has never been a confirmed or documented case of a melanistic mountain lion in the United States. Mistaken identities may also occur with the cougar's smaller relative, the bobcat. Bobcats can be melanistic too, but this is extremely rare with only 12 reported sightings across all of North America. ”
https://emammal.si.edu/
I didn't know this was rare. I will try and dig up a picture of one that I have on my old phone from one in WA. It's not completely black but looks like the black took over and had a fully black face. In the area I saw this cat multiple people have reported black cougars to the local wildlife biologist.
Post by: boneaddict on July 18, 2021, 07:14:23 AM
Post by: bigmacc on July 18, 2021, 02:23:58 PM
I used to think it was cool to see a wolf. That changed sometime back in the 80s. I’d just assume not repeat.:yeah: :yeah:
Post by: predatorG on July 19, 2021, 12:28:29 PM
Why do people have such a *censored* for reintroducing species which have been extirpated from places? How would this population survive without a continuously connected genetic group on the landscape? How would they fare competing with native predators such as wolves, cougars, and bears? Do they have the genetic memory to target wild prey and not focus on livestock?
Jaguars thrive in Central and South America, reintroducing them in the continental US would do a disservice both to the jaguars and to the continental US.
Rumor has it bigfoot was supposed manage the wolf population and keep them in check, but Dan-o failed to get the communication across and now wolves are all over :dunno:
I feel like you don't fully understand what kind of environment jaguars live in. And maybe you didn't read the whole article. They clearly would not be reintroducing them into areas that have wolves as that is not the right environment for them. Maybe they will cross paths with red wolves, and Arizona wolves, maybe not. What the article doesnt mention is that there is already a population of jaguars in the U.S. around the states bordering the gulf. People see them every so often. They have always been there. They would probably have ZERO problems establishing in area's like South Texas and Louisiana, Mississippi etc. All this whiny ranting over liberals wanting predators and blah blah blah about competing with other predators. Read a little more about it. They would most likely live where literally NO wolves live. Except for Arizona where jaguars are already found living in the same areas as wolves. There are very few cougars left in the South from the historical extermination attempts and bears are few in the South as well. If you consider yourself a true sportsman then you shouldn't mind helping out a species of animal that is endangered and giving up some areas for their benefit. I still agree with hound hunting cougars and bears. I agree with hunting wolves. I don't agree with exterminating an entire species from an area. Not helping them is a disservice to conservation which is what we as hunters should stand for. If your just into killing stuff with a gun go to a ranch somewhere and pay to shoot an ear tagged animal. I for one enjoy wildlife and the experience of seeing them in the wild acting naturally. Don't be greedy...
I am 100% against it, and here is why:
Specifically, you don't understand the lying dirtbags behind reintroduction.
Remember wolves........ 15o wolves and 15 breeding pairs.
Oh wait.... we meant 300 wolves and 30 breeding pairs.
Oh wait..... We meant more than that, and will continually sue you for years while delaying delisting.
If wolf introduction taught me anything, it's that you can count on the reintro folks to lie like nobody's business.
I am not anti-wolf, but I am 100% against these dirtbags.
Post by: idaho guy on July 19, 2021, 02:56:31 PM
Why do people have such a *censored* for reintroducing species which have been extirpated from places? How would this population survive without a continuously connected genetic group on the landscape? How would they fare competing with native predators such as wolves, cougars, and bears? Do they have the genetic memory to target wild prey and not focus on livestock?
Jaguars thrive in Central and South America, reintroducing them in the continental US would do a disservice both to the jaguars and to the continental US.
Rumor has it bigfoot was supposed manage the wolf population and keep them in check, but Dan-o failed to get the communication across and now wolves are all over :dunno:
I feel like you don't fully understand what kind of environment jaguars live in. And maybe you didn't read the whole article. They clearly would not be reintroducing them into areas that have wolves as that is not the right environment for them. Maybe they will cross paths with red wolves, and Arizona wolves, maybe not. What the article doesnt mention is that there is already a population of jaguars in the U.S. around the states bordering the gulf. People see them every so often. They have always been there. They would probably have ZERO problems establishing in area's like South Texas and Louisiana, Mississippi etc. All this whiny ranting over liberals wanting predators and blah blah blah about competing with other predators. Read a little more about it. They would most likely live where literally NO wolves live. Except for Arizona where jaguars are already found living in the same areas as wolves. There are very few cougars left in the South from the historical extermination attempts and bears are few in the South as well. If you consider yourself a true sportsman then you shouldn't mind helping out a species of animal that is endangered and giving up some areas for their benefit. I still agree with hound hunting cougars and bears. I agree with hunting wolves. I don't agree with exterminating an entire species from an area. Not helping them is a disservice to conservation which is what we as hunters should stand for. If your just into killing stuff with a gun go to a ranch somewhere and pay to shoot an ear tagged animal. I for one enjoy wildlife and the experience of seeing them in the wild acting naturally. Don't be greedy...
I am 100% against it, and here is why:
Specifically, you don't understand the lying dirtbags behind reintroduction.
Remember wolves........ 15o wolves and 15 breeding pairs.
Oh wait.... we meant 300 wolves and 30 breeding pairs.
Oh wait..... We meant more than that, and will continually sue you for years while delaying delisting.
If wolf introduction taught me anything, it's that you can count on the reintro folks to lie like nobody's business.
I am not anti-wolf, but I am 100% against these dirtbags.
:yeah: That pretty much sums it up!
Post by: cbond3318 on July 19, 2021, 03:45:56 PM
[/quote]
:yeah: That pretty much sums it up!
[/quote]
You know you’re frothing at the mouth to turn them pups loose on a Jaguar. :chuckle:
Post by: idaho guy on July 19, 2021, 10:46:45 PM
:yeah: That pretty much sums it up!
[/quote]
You know you’re frothing at the mouth to turn them pups loose on a Jaguar. :chuckle:
[/quote]
Who me ? Ok maybe just one time :chuckle:
Post by: LDennis24 on December 27, 2024, 02:12:59 PM
Post by: HighlandLofts on December 28, 2024, 05:13:11 AM
The wolves that came here are really a smart creature, they installed radio collars on themselves so the State can follow their every move.
Then they spread almost all across the state into acknowledged wolf packs and unecknowleded wolf packs, plus they can transform into other spieces. Some one sees a wolf, takes a picture of catches it on a trail camera and the State says it's a family pet or a coyote.
If the wolves can reintroduce themselves then the jaguar can reintroduce themselves. Simple as that.
Post by: boneaddict on December 28, 2024, 09:10:20 AM
Quote
If the wolves can reintroduce themselves then the jaguar can reintroduce themselves. Simple as that.
:yeah: sort of like Covid and what all of us tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists thought about the lab in Wuhan and our CIA working with CHina, LOL (todays news)
Post by: nwwanderer on December 28, 2024, 11:41:38 AM
Post by: LDennis24 on December 28, 2024, 12:28:38 PM
Post by: Fidelk on December 28, 2024, 02:45:22 PM