Post by: Smoke Pole on April 28, 2009, 09:18:18 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 28, 2009, 09:26:00 PM
Post by: Smoke Pole on May 01, 2009, 07:24:34 AM
Post by: CP on May 01, 2009, 07:54:31 AM
a. It is unlawful for any person to carry or
have in his possession any firearm while in
the field archery hunting, during an archery
season specified for that area, except for
modern handguns carried for personal
protection if that person possesses a
concealed pistol license as defined by
RCW 9.41.070. Modern handguns cannot
be used to hunt big game or dispatch
wounded big game during an archery, big
game hunting season.
3. In addition to the above requirements, it is
unlawful to participate (hunt) in a muzzleloading
hunting season using a firearm which does
not meet the following specifications for a
muzzleloader. As in the past sabots are allowed.
New this year any type of projectile is allowed.
A modern handgun may be carried for personal
protection if that person possesses a concealed
pistol license as defined in RCW 9.41.070.
Modern handguns cannot be used to hunt big
game or dispatch wounded big game during
a big game hunting season for muzzleloading
firearms.
Post by: jackelope on May 01, 2009, 08:13:38 AM
unlawful to participate (hunt) in a muzzleloading
hunting season using a firearm which does
not meet the following specifications for a
muzzleloader. As in the past sabots are allowed.
New this year any type of projectile is allowed.
A modern handgun may be carried for personal
protection if that person possesses a concealed
pistol license as defined in RCW 9.41.070.Modern handguns cannot be used to hunt big
game or dispatch wounded big game during
a big game hunting season for muzzleloading
firearms.
are we overthinking things?
Post by: CP on May 01, 2009, 08:21:37 AM
Post by: KillBilly on May 01, 2009, 08:27:23 AM
I am sure there could and will be situations where a wounded bear (by ML) for example was attacking and had to be dispatched in a self protection action. One better have good evidence...
Same with using it to kill a supposed attacking Cougar....
You get the picture....
Post by: Curly on May 01, 2009, 08:29:57 AM
I believe the way it is written is exactly the way they meant it to be.
Post by: CP on May 01, 2009, 08:38:33 AM
Post by: jackelope on May 01, 2009, 08:41:20 AM
Quote
I believe the way it is written is exactly the way they meant it to be.
me too.
i don't get the confusion.
Post by: jackelope on May 01, 2009, 08:41:42 AM
Post by: Curly on May 01, 2009, 09:03:08 AM
Are you saying that you think you can carry a handgun without a CPL? I think it is very clear in the rules that you are not allowed to open or conceal carry a handgun while ML hunting.
But you also mention that you can carry a modern rifle or shotgun while hunting a muzzleloader season. I maybe understand this logic......
So, if you are hunting early elk season........you could carry a modern rifle or shotgun just in case you see a grouse or bear to shoot with the modern weapon. Is that what you're getting at? I like this logic; but a game warden would ticket you and you would have a hard time proving in court that you were not hunting elk with the modern rifle.
I've often thought it would be nice to have my wife carry my extra ML for me while hunting and if I need a second shot, I could have her hand it to me. I mean, it shouldn't be illegal for her to walk around in the woods with a ML as long as she doesn't shoot an animal with it. But I know that a person is considered guilty unless they can prove otherwise..........
Post by: CP on May 01, 2009, 09:24:38 AM
The 2008 wording was clear:
“It is illegal to carry or possess any firearm during muzzleloading seasons which does not meet the following specification for muzzleloader”
The 2009 wording removes that restriction:
“it is unlawful to participate (hunt) in a muzzleloading hunting season using a firearm which does not meet the following specifications for a muzzleloader.”
Post by: Curly on May 01, 2009, 09:50:17 AM
Post by: Smoke Pole on May 01, 2009, 10:24:08 AM
Post by: bobcat on May 01, 2009, 10:30:37 AM
I'm just looking at the words in the regulations and taking them just as they read. I don't see anything in the ML wording that prohibits carrying a handgun without a CPL. You say that it’s “very clear” but I don’t see it anywhere. Where is that stated? I'm trying to be argumentative, I just don't see it.
3. In addition to the above requirements, it is
unlawful to participate (hunt) in a muzzleloading
hunting season using a firearm which does
not meet the following specifications for a
muzzleloader. As in the past sabots are allowed.
New this year any type of projectile is allowed.
A modern handgun may be carried for personal
protection if that person possesses a concealed
pistol license as defined in RCW 9.41.070.Modern handguns cannot be used to hunt big
game or dispatch wounded big game during
a big game hunting season for muzzleloading
firearms.
Post by: jackelope on May 01, 2009, 10:35:13 AM
in the past signing up for your archery or muzz permit created an exemption for you from the right to carry laws in this state. as of 2009 there is a modification or new law or whatever you want to call it allowing you to carry if you have a permit. (this is all written in my simpleton terms...i'm no lawyer)
seems crystal clear to me.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on May 01, 2009, 10:36:05 AM
Post by: clay on May 01, 2009, 10:45:17 AM
This quote (from the regs):
"A modern handgun may be carried for personal
protection if that person possesses a concealed
pistol license as defined in RCW 9.41.070."
WDFW makes it sound as though you are required to possess a Concealed Weapons Permit as defined in RCW 9.41.070 to carry a modern firearm.
The problem is that there are exceptions listed under that specific RCW that allow for it:
"RCW 9.41.060
Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.
The provisions of RCW 9.41.050 shall not apply to: (9.41.050 is the
open carry law)
(8) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such
as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if,
considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to
whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable
to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or
is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;"
My interpretation is that you can "OPEN CARRY" a firearm while hunting, fishing, camping, hiking etc.
I've emailed the director of WDFW and they are currently researching the topic. The reply back to me was CC'd to all of the Big Wigs in the WDFW, so there's probably some validity to my interpretation.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on May 01, 2009, 10:49:14 AM
Post by: Curly on May 01, 2009, 10:51:55 AM
Quote
My interpretation is that you can "OPEN CARRY" a firearm while hunting, fishing, camping, hiking etc.
Your interpretation is correct about open carry AND concealed carry while hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, etc..............except when muzzleloader or archery hunting.......then you must have a CPL.
Post by: jackelope on May 01, 2009, 10:56:48 AM
Quote
Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such
as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if,
considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to
whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable
to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or
is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;"
the important part of this is the lawful part...as in it is/was not lawful to carry during archery or muzz. seasons. you signed up for that when you bought your archery/muzz permit.
Post by: bobcat on May 01, 2009, 10:58:26 AM
Post by: clay on May 01, 2009, 11:00:12 AM
Doesn't say that boss.....nice try though. My interpretation is that if you're carrying a CONCEALED weapon that you would be required to have a CPL.
They would have written the EXCEPTION something like this: "Unless specifically forbidden by hunting regulations".
Furthermore, if they had a clue they would have mentioned it in the hunting regulations specifically.
Post by: clay on May 01, 2009, 11:04:51 AM
Concealed carry requires a CPL. RCW states this.
Open Carry has exceptions. This is the basis of my argument.
Post by: Curly on May 01, 2009, 11:07:47 AM
BTW, the sentence in the regs does not specify open or concealed carry......they simply say "carry".
Post by: Curly on May 01, 2009, 11:09:15 AM
One last thing:
Concealed carry requires a CPL. RCW states this.
Concealed carry does NOT require a CPL if you are lawfully involved in an outdoor activity.
Post by: jackelope on May 01, 2009, 11:24:11 AM
from Kain's thread in the archery forum from a couple weeks ago.
Wildthing (DFW) to me
show details 8:17 AM
Reply
Thank you for your recent e-mail regarding the recently amended archery regulation now authorizing bowhunters with a valid concealed pistol license to carry a sidearm while archery hunting. Your e-mail has been forwarded to me for a response.
Please be advised that the chief of our enforcement program has no authority to mandate any hunting rules or regulations. The chief—along with all of our Fish and Wildlife Officers—is responsible for enforcing hunting laws and rules, not making them.
RCW 9.41.060(, Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms, authorizes an exception to the restriction on carrying firearms for “…any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping….” The operative word to pay attention to is “lawful.” Bowhunters in Washington State are regulated by rules promulgated by the Fish and Wildlife Commission. Those rules are specific to bowhunters who choose to purchase a Washington State license to hunt big game with archery tackle. The commission has delegated authority from the legislature to adopt rules governing the time, place and manner of lawful hunting activity. Those rules can be as restrictive or as relaxed as they deem appropriate to the species hunted.
The commission has always been concerned about the potential for individual bowhunters to use a sidearm to unlawfully kill big game. Knowing that individuals with concealed pistol licenses (CPL) are thoroughly vetted through a criminal background history check, the commission has a high level of confidence that CPL holders will not wish to jeopardize their license. There is no such assurance with the general hunter who does not possess a CPL.
You should also know that representatives of the bowhunting community—not WDFW staff—are the ones that proposed this regulation to the Fish and Wildlife Commission and they are the ones that sought to distinguish between CPL holders and non-CPL holding archers.
Mik Mikitik
Department of Fish and Wildlife
Enforcement Program
Hunter Education Division
(360) 902-8408
from Naithan Kain <naithankain@gmail.com>
to commission@dfw.wa.gov,
wildthing@dfw.wa.gov,
director@dfw.wa.gov,
turcocmt@dfw.wa.gov,
TeamSpokane@dfw.wa.gov,
TeamEphrata@dfw.wa.gov,
TeamYakima@dfw.wa.gov,
TeamMillCreek@dfw.wa.gov,
TeamVancouver@dfw.wa.gov,
TeamMontesano@dfw.wa.gov
Post by: CP on May 01, 2009, 11:33:43 AM
There is nothing in the 2009 regulations that prohibits carrying a modern firearm during ML season.
The verbiage below merely states that it is legal to carry a modern handgun if you have a CPL, it does not state that it is illegal to carry a modern firearm without a CPL. Big difference.
A modern handgun may be carried for personal
protection if that person possesses a concealed
pistol license as defined in RCW 9.41.070.
Post by: bobcat on May 01, 2009, 11:38:02 AM
Geez, you sound almost as bad as Bill Clinton. :rolleyes:
Post by: WDFW-SUX on May 01, 2009, 11:41:22 AM
Post by: clay on May 01, 2009, 11:49:17 AM
I think his explanation of "lawful" is a reach in its entirety.
Hunting with a ML during the ML season is a LAWFUL activity.
I didn't say that I was hunting with the modern handgun (which I truthfully would never ever do).
Define lawful.
Does anyone else see this?
Seriously, am I living in a vaccum?
Post by: Curly on May 01, 2009, 12:07:44 PM
Post by: Kain on May 01, 2009, 12:32:04 PM
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,25105.45.html
"Just got this email today. Looks like all our efforts might be working. This is in response to the NRA getting on them about this.
Hello. Thank you for your comments regarding the Fish and Wildlife Commission’s changes to WACs 232-12-051 and 232-12-054 allowing a hunter to carry a modern handgun during archery and muzzleloader seasons if he/she has a concealed weapons permit. The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife is going to review these WAC changes and will provide a response to you once it has done so.
Lori Preuss, WSBA #33045
WDFW Criminal Justice Liaison &
Administrative Regulations Coordinator
Lori.preuss@dfw.wa.gov
360.902.2930
Fax 360.902.2155"
Post by: clay on May 01, 2009, 12:34:49 PM
Post by: Kain on May 01, 2009, 12:39:42 PM
I got the same EXACT email three days ago.
That is a quote from the other thread on this. It is a few days old.
Post by: Kain on May 01, 2009, 12:41:37 PM
Post by: jackelope on May 01, 2009, 12:46:10 PM
Post by: CP on May 01, 2009, 12:54:08 PM
"IF" is the key word. So if a person does not have a CPL, then that person MAY NOT carry a modern handgun for personal protection. This is something we all should have learned in English class in the 3rd grade.
Geez, you sound almost as bad as Bill Clinton. :rolleyes:
I learned in the third grade not to read more into a sentence than what is written. If the WDFW intends to make arrests and citations based on an unwritten “then that person MAY NOT” clause they will incur a lot of wasted court time.
I expect changes will be released soon.
I’ll refrain from countering your personal attack although it is definitely not appreciated.
Post by: Kain on May 01, 2009, 12:54:52 PM
the biggest question that comes to my mind is why nobody made a stink about it prior to this year when it was completely illegal period to carry a modern sidearm during muzzleloader or archery. why is it suddenly a giant red flag for you guys this year when they made it legal with the concealed carry permit?
Thats a good question and for me it was that it had just always been that way. It was always one of those things I didnt like but for some reason I just didnt think I could do anything about it. When they had the on-line survey I was so happy to see the change to allow us to carry. But then they added the CPL requirement afterwards, they just kind of sneaked it in there. Thats when I started talking about it on here and realized that they had been limiting our rights all along without (what I believe) the legal authority.
It is a poor excuse but that is why my family and I never spoke up about it.
Post by: Curly on May 01, 2009, 12:55:34 PM
the biggest question that comes to my mind is why nobody made a stink about it prior to this year when it was completely illegal period to carry a modern sidearm during muzzleloader or archery. Why is it suddenly a giant red flag for you guys this year when they made it legal with the concealed carry permit?
Yeah. Makes no sense. They give a little concession, saying we can carry if we go get a CPL and now there is a big stink over it.........we couldn't carry at all before. :dunno:
My fear is that the state will just change the RCW to eliminate the exception to conceal carry allowing carry while in the act of a lawful outdoor activity.
Post by: Kain on May 01, 2009, 12:58:08 PM
My fear is that the state will just change the RCW to eliminate the exception to conceal carry allowing carry while in the act of a lawful outdoor activity.
That is our point they already did that for us (archery and MZL hunters). They dont have to eliminate the RCW they just have to add that a CPL is required in the hunting regs and it overwrites the RCW. They could do that to any hunter group. That is why we are complaining.
Post by: Curly on May 01, 2009, 01:13:54 PM
They may just go back to the way it was (not allow anyone to carry a pistol) if they get a bunch of heat over the new change. I'm glad you guys are fighting it........I just hope it works out and doesn't backfire.
Post by: bobcat on May 01, 2009, 01:16:08 PM
Quote
Weapons Restrictions: Possession of Firearms
What Does it Mean to Hunters and Hunting in Oregon?
In 1995, Oregon Legislators adopted Oregon Revised Statute (ORS) 166.170 giving all authority to regulate possession of firearms solely to the Oregon Legislative Assembly.
In 2003, the Oregon Attorney General reviewed the statute and determined the Oregon Fish and Wildlife Commission (Commission) cannot limit what firearms can be carried or possessed during hunting seasons.
In the same opinion, the Oregon Attorney General confirmed that the Commission has statutory authority to regulate where, when, how and by whom wildlife are taken by hunting.
All ODFW hunting regulations and Oregon Administrative Rules (OAR) have been modified to comply with these changes concerning the possession of firearms during hunting seasons.
The Commission still determines the season dates, open hunt areas, bag limits, and tag numbers for game species.
The Commission still determines the weapon type that can be legally used to hunt during a specified season.
Requirements for weapons used to hunt with are independent of any weapon(s) the individual hunter may choose to carry while in the field hunting. Regulations regarding when a person may hunt for a particular species also still apply. For example, these regulations state that it is not legal to hunt with a centerfire or muzzleloading rifle without a valid unused deer or elk tag for that time period and area on the person during eastern Oregon buck deer seasons and many of the standard elk seasons (see HUNTING PROHIBITED on page 36 for the exact rule language).
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/resources/hunting/big_game/regulations/weapons.asp
Post by: Smoke Pole on May 01, 2009, 01:18:13 PM
That was removed and it now reads "In addition to the above requirements, it is unlawful to participate (hunt) in a muzzleloading
hunting season using a firearm which does not meet the following specifications for a muzzleloader."
They removed "carry or possess" and replaced them with "participate (hunt)". If they intended a cpl as the only legal method to carry a modern handgun they would have clarified the issue with the word "must".
That is a pistol in my pocket and I am happy to see you.
Post by: bobcat on May 01, 2009, 01:21:55 PM
Post by: Kain on May 01, 2009, 01:28:04 PM
I will try to redirect to the original point. Last years regs said "It is illegal to carry or possess any firearm during muzzleloading season which does not meet the following specification for a muzzleloader". Clearly you can't carry a modern pistol but later it says you can carry a black powder pistol.
That was removed and it now reads "In addition to the above requirements, it is unlawful to participate (hunt) in a muzzleloading
hunting season using a firearm which does not meet the following specifications for a muzzleloader."
They removed "carry or possess" and replaced them with "participate (hunt)". If they intended a cpl as the only legal method to carry a modern handgun they would have clarified the issue with the word "must".
That is a pistol in my pocket and I am happy to see you.
Are you asking if it Ok to have in your "possession" a rifle as long as you were not "using it" to hunt? Im just not understanding your statement.
Post by: Kain on May 01, 2009, 01:39:37 PM
I just think there has been precident about the WDFW having rules that overwrite RCW's. Previously we were not allowed to possess a modern firearm pistol while ML hunting.......concealed or not. They are really not changing anything except allowing those people with CPL's to carry. I'm not arguing that the WDFW made the correct decision, I'm just saying that they are not changing their long standing position very much. (I think it is stupid to require a CPL for open carry.) I don't like the fact that the WDFW assumes someone with a handgun is a poacher unless they have a CPL.
They may just go back to the way it was (not allow anyone to carry a pistol) if they get a bunch of heat over the new change. I'm glad you guys are fighting it........I just hope it works out and doesn't backfire.
I had heard that they made the concession because they were told by the Attorney General that they would loose a legal case over it in the first place. I dont know if that is true but it seems likely with how the constitution is worded. If this is the case then we have little to fear about it backfiring.
Post by: Smoke Pole on May 01, 2009, 03:37:39 PM
Are you asking if it Ok to have in your "possession" a rifle as long as you were not "using it" to hunt? Im just not understanding your statement.
[/quote]
Actually, I was only trying to make the point that verbiage prohibiting carrying anything but muzzleloaders or black powder was removed and not replaced with any other prohibitions. You make a good point about modern long guns. I don't see anything saying they can't be in one's possession so long as one is not hunting with it.
Here's another interesting thought to wrestle with. Let's say an off duty sheriff's deputy required to carry a personal firearm by department policy but not required to possess a cpl by virtue of RCW 9.41.060 is out hunting during muzzleloader season. Will he be ticketed? Your authority to carry a concealed handgun is written in the same law eight sentences down from his.
It gets curiouser and curiouser.
Post by: bobcat on May 01, 2009, 03:59:59 PM
Post by: Curly on May 01, 2009, 05:09:10 PM
Anway, because they changed the wording that used to say you can't carry anything but a muzzleloader, you say that you should be able to carry a modern rifle or shotgun during ML season as long as you are not hunting with one. (The pistol issue is separate, it specifically says you can only carry one if you have a CPL.)
Good luck convincing a warden that you just have the 30-06 stapped around your neck in case you see a meth-head that you need protection from. You will go to court.......maybe with a really good lawyer you can get out of a ticket, but why would you want to pay a lawyer a bunch of money?
Somewhere on this board someone wrote about when he had asked a Wildlife agent about if it would be okay for him to hunt with a ML for elk while his buddy came with him with a modern rifle and a bear tag. The warden told him no.........they would have to hunt separately. Can you believe that? That is b.s. They are both legally doing an activity, it just so happens that they would drive there together and maybe hunt together or partially together, but the warden would write them up. Makes no sense.
You should be able to have in your possession a modern firearm as long as you don't shoot your animal that you have your ML tag for. But the warden would have already convicted you and the courts likely would not be on your side either. Doesn't matter what the wording of the pamphlet says......the warden will have his mind made up.
Another thing, where the pamphlet says "it is unlawful to participate (hunt) in a muzzleloading hunting season using a firearm which does not meet........" the WDFW will likely say that by being out in the woods actively pursuing game, that you are in fact "hunting" with that firearm. Even though you don't intend to shoot the animal that you have a ML tag for with that firearm, they will say otherwise and you're screwed.
Post by: jackelope on May 01, 2009, 05:12:51 PM
Post by: Kain on May 01, 2009, 08:52:02 PM
i think a portion of this can be tracked back to the archery only lion season we now have too eliminating "i'm cougar hunting" as an excuse for having the aught 6 strapped around your neck.
The sad part is that people dont need to have a reason at all to have a gun with them. They could just tell the officer they are target shooting or carrying for protection. They are perfectly legal until they actually shoot something. So they will just keep adding restrictions on hunters of all groups and it wont do any good.