Post by: jason stevens on November 05, 2021, 02:14:35 PM
Post by: Bone collector 13 on November 05, 2021, 02:24:03 PM
Post by: hunter399 on November 05, 2021, 02:32:26 PM
But one thing I do know is ,and this apply to deer,elk,all game animals really.
If you want the herd to grow its all about the cows or females.
As long as there is enough bulls to breed all the cows than the herd grows.
If you think about genes as long as there are cows in the herd that carry that old bulls genes ,then his genes live on.
That's why sometimes it's so important to protect cow,does,females, but when you give out way to many permits or OTC cow tags,poaching,ect,ect, it is possible to erase or completely take out certain genes through female harvest.
Just like humans ,whether you have a son or daughter ,your genes are passed on . They may be more prominent from father to son,but make no mistake your genes are passed on son or daughter makes no difference.
Post by: johnbmyersii on November 05, 2021, 02:39:09 PM
Post by: jason stevens on November 05, 2021, 02:42:30 PM
Post by: jason stevens on November 05, 2021, 02:43:05 PM
Post by: HunterStrait on November 05, 2021, 02:46:13 PM
I disagree with the true spike rule though, and i think all spike only rules should just be switched to being "non-branching elk" to also include forking 2x2 elk.
Post by: johnbmyersii on November 05, 2021, 02:47:01 PM
Great responses so far thank you. What if we had a say (lol will never happen) an we went no harvesting of cows an straight to a 4 point rule for a minimum of at least 5 years. What do you think would happen?
It would be an absolute slaughter the likes we've never seen in this generation. We'd probably also never see a recovery and have the absolute tanks we have running around these days. It would be fun if they did it and I'd definitely participate but it'd ruin our trophy units
Post by: johnbmyersii on November 05, 2021, 02:47:30 PM
I disagree with the true spike rule though, and i think all spike only rules should just be switched to being "non-branching elk" to also include forking 2x2 elk.
:yeah:
Post by: nwwanderer on November 05, 2021, 03:10:21 PM
Post by: jason stevens on November 05, 2021, 03:22:01 PM
Post by: HillHound on November 05, 2021, 03:25:03 PM
Post by: Mtnwalker on November 05, 2021, 03:31:19 PM
Post by: jason stevens on November 05, 2021, 03:35:28 PM
Post by: hunter399 on November 05, 2021, 03:43:22 PM
It's about high $$ and low harvest. Sell tags to everybody yet not be a significant drain on the resource. And with the branch antlered tags cut down to what they are now, it's a joke.Ding Ding Ding ,BINGO
You just described the whole permit system ,except for female harvest ,cause that does cause a drain on the resource.
But yes big bingo ,that's why in the future WDFW will try to put the whole state on the permit system and due away with OTC anything .Cause everybody will buy in at a chance of drawing yet if they harvest is of no concern.
Think of the spike elk restrictions as a permit drawing.
Your just buying a tag at a chance ,that's all.
Same could be said of the 4pt WT in NE WA a few years ago.
At least with that restriction ,was buying into a chance of a mature deer.
So kinda the same ,but different.
Post by: Stein on November 05, 2021, 03:49:19 PM
Same thing happens with permits, they get cut quickly, but once they get to only one or two permits they tend to stay there. Is one or two tags the right number from a biological perspective or does it have more to do with selling chances at a draw?
There doesn't seem to be much of a management strategy and certainly no recovery strategy other that cut permits and limit the general hunting as much as possible without closing it. When I look through the prospects every year, it seems there is a bunch of cut and paste from prior years and best case you have some survey data although that is getting to be less and less.
I think they know they can't go to a 3 or 4 pt rule as the harvest would go up substantially and they can't go to permit only because they would likely see the pitchforks come out as well as a huge budget hit. Which one is the driving factor is up to anyone's guess as WDFW certainly won't discuss it in any meaningful way.
Post by: HUNT JR on November 05, 2021, 03:51:39 PM
Post by: jason stevens on November 05, 2021, 04:26:12 PM
Post by: jeffro on November 05, 2021, 05:06:54 PM
Post by: 85yota on November 05, 2021, 05:13:54 PM
Post by: 85yota on November 05, 2021, 05:16:22 PM
Post by: avidnwoutdoorsman on November 05, 2021, 05:28:41 PM
I'm no elk expert that for sure.
But one thing I do know is ,and this apply to deer,elk,all game animals really.
If you want the herd to grow its all about the cows or females.
As long as there is enough bulls to breed all the cows than the herd grows.
If you think about genes as long as there are cows in the herd that carry that old bulls genes ,then his genes live on.
That's why sometimes it's so important to protect cow,does,females, but when you give out way to many permits or OTC cow tags,poaching,ect,ect, it is possible to erase or completely take out certain genes through female harvest.
Just like humans ,whether you have a son or daughter ,your genes are passed on . They may be more prominent from father to son,but make no mistake your genes are passed on son or daughter makes no difference.
Correct about the cows and females. A little off the mark on genes. Genes dont make monsters and play almost nothing into the size of a mature bull. What matters is a fat momma. A stud bull breeds a cow who has a hard winter and she will birth a bull with "stud genes" that wont grow to its stud potential due to momma not being fat while in utero. Alternatively, you have an average bull breed a cow who has a great winter and she will birth a future stud bull.
Genes mean almost nothing for producing big mature ungulates. Having a fat mama means everything. :twocents:
Post by: jason stevens on November 05, 2021, 05:41:25 PM
Post by: str8meat on November 05, 2021, 07:57:50 PM
Post by: X-Force on November 05, 2021, 08:50:10 PM
I wouldn’t be apposed to state wide permit elk, but I’m 35. It may be a harder pill to swallow at 50 or 65.
Post by: mburrows on November 05, 2021, 09:00:21 PM
Post by: Dan-o on November 05, 2021, 11:35:06 PM
Personally, I hate only being able to hunt spikes, but I'm old enough to remember when you'd go to the big feeding station and maybe see a couple gangly raghorns. But you wouldn't see any real brusier bulls.
We didn't have any bull tags this year, but we called in some absolute stud bulls.
It wouldn't take long to wipe them out.
Also, not that many years ago there were a ton of cow tags on the east side. That wasn't an accident. The herd was above their desired carrying capacity. You can argue what the carrying capacity should be, but unless you're actually working with the farmers and paying the claims and looking at the quality of graze from an educated standpoint..... Well, you're just guessing.
I don't see any alternative to what's going on. Going to 3-point min on the east side would kill a LOT of bulls for a couple years, but then we'd be back to almost no big bulls. Personally, I like having the big bulls out there, even if I can only draw a tag every few million years (or at least that's how it feels.)
Post by: cooltimber on November 06, 2021, 06:02:07 AM
I'm gonna say the spike only thing is working.Absolutely
Personally, I hate only being able to hunt spikes, but I'm old enough to remember when you'd go to the big feeding station and maybe see a couple gangly raghorns. But you wouldn't see any real brusier bulls.
We didn't have any bull tags this year, but we called in some absolute stud bulls.
It wouldn't take long to wipe them out.
Also, not that many years ago there were a ton of cow tags on the east side. That wasn't an accident. The herd was above their desired carrying capacity. You can argue what the carrying capacity should be, but unless you're actually working with the farmers and paying the claims and looking at the quality of graze from an educated standpoint..... Well, you're just guessing.
I don't see any alternative to what's going on. Going to 3-point min on the east side would kill a LOT of bulls for a couple years, but then we'd be back to almost no big bulls. Personally, I like having the big bulls out there, even if I can only draw a tag every few million years (or at least that's how it feels.)
Post by: scoutdog346 on November 07, 2021, 09:35:25 AM
It's all about money. If the eastside was all open for any bull or 3pt min, there wouldnt be many elk left and they wouldnt make nearly as much money. Special big bull permits make the state hundreds of thousands of dollars every year. Many spikes dont survive the winter anyways and success rate is so low that it doesnt matter if most of them get killed off. Only a few need to make it through to grow big to continue repopulating. At the end of the day, WDFW is out to make money any way they can.
Post by: Stein on November 07, 2021, 09:55:46 AM
Quote
Nearly one quarter of WDFW’s operating budget comes from fishing and hunting license sale revenues. As state General Fund support to the department declines, user fees are more important than ever in helping to avert even deeper cuts to services
Since then, we have seen new fees, maybe the best example is the two pole endorsement. WDFW initiated that when there was a budget crisis, arguably they could have created that opportunity years ago, or could have made it free. Same is true in hunting, additional fees and "opportunities" are created when money is needed. "Opportunities" tend to arrive during hard budget years and always have a fee associated, either new or increased.
Fishing, hunting, same deal.
Post by: bobdog86 on November 07, 2021, 10:58:27 AM
We spend thousands of dollars for what we love to do. Im only asking these questions because I'm curious of what other hunters an huntress think. I'd love to hunt elk an be productive in the harvest but spike only in 30 years of hunting I've gotten 1. I will always go every year because it's a passion but what if I went west an paid the fees to hunt and chased hoof rot bulls. I know its all about the money in our state but good God if they actually listened to us an gave us a say they could still make money. My personal opinion is everything deer an elk included should be 3 point or better an no females allowed to be harvested except for maybe a couple for youth. All of the opportunities would increase. An bring back baiting an hounds for predators.
I know one user group that would absolutely love your recommendations….especially when they operate under a separate set of rules. The 3 or 4 point rule in the blues would send it back to the days of minimal success rates (worse than now)……it would do more harm than good.both for the state and the hunter
Post by: dreamingbig on November 07, 2021, 11:04:51 AM
Great responses so far thank you. What if we had a say (lol will never happen) an we went no harvesting of cows an straight to a 4 point rule for a minimum of at least 5 years. What do you think would happen?You couldn’t offer 4 point minimum OTC. There wouldn’t be any bulls left in that scenario either. It would have to be draw only.
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Post by: Stein on November 07, 2021, 11:16:11 AM
Great responses so far thank you. What if we had a say (lol will never happen) an we went no harvesting of cows an straight to a 4 point rule for a minimum of at least 5 years. What do you think would happen?You couldn’t offer 4 point minimum OTC. There wouldn’t be any bulls left in that scenario either. It would have to be draw only.
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:yeah:
The eastern units are draw for mature bulls now. What you propose would essentially be to increase the permit tags from whatever few they are today to unlimited. Even the states with OTC bull tags and much healthier herds have some control over bulls in at least some areas. MT's general is usually brow tine or better in the general units with the rest of the units draw only. I can't think of anyplace where you can buy an OTC tag for mature bulls with no unit restrictions.
The increase in pressure on those bulls would be hard to overestimate. Guys like me that bailed on elk in this state would be back in the game and you would likely even see a noticeable uptick in nonresident hunters.
Post by: Mfowl on November 07, 2021, 11:19:05 AM
Post by: time2hunt on November 07, 2021, 05:51:12 PM
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Post by: royalhntr on November 07, 2021, 07:05:34 PM
Post by: full choke on November 07, 2021, 07:16:45 PM
Post by: millerwheeler on November 07, 2021, 07:38:22 PM
Sounds like utv’s and atv’s should be limited. Not elk hunters.
How do you figure there not every single outdoor hobby is limited in some shape or form and every single user group pays in one way or the other , more people have switch to utvs for simple fact you See how much a keep is these days ? Just a different type of hunting , can’t put one hunter against another that’s why we are losing the. Battle here . Road hunters can’t say it’s my thing but EVERY SINGLE HUNTER HAS DONE IT! Eyes on the road never on the woods when your driving to your spot? Never drive just a little slower just in case , it’s just different strokes for different folks . Management is the real issue of the herds and of predators period most people on here make zero effort for predators , more hunters than animals well then we gotta work towards compromise for the future , our draws are a money grab and seriously declining odds make it hard for any of us to be happy , but predators , all user groups working too same goal , respecting each user in the hunting community . I’m ranting now. But let’s try and all see there are many issues at hand not just the almighty east side elk
Post by: dreamingbig on November 07, 2021, 09:34:05 PM
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Post by: hunter399 on November 08, 2021, 03:36:03 AM
I'm gonna rant a little myself.......Sounds like utv’s and atv’s should be limited. Not elk hunters.
How do you figure there not every single outdoor hobby is limited in some shape or form and every single user group pays in one way or the other , more people have switch to utvs for simple fact you See how much a keep is these days ? Just a different type of hunting , can’t put one hunter against another that’s why we are losing the. Battle here . Road hunters can’t say it’s my thing but EVERY SINGLE HUNTER HAS DONE IT! Eyes on the road never on the woods when your driving to your spot? Never drive just a little slower just in case , it’s just different strokes for different folks . Management is the real issue of the herds and of predators period most people on here make zero effort for predators , more hunters than animals well then we gotta work towards compromise for the future , our draws are a money grab and seriously declining odds make it hard for any of us to be happy , but predators , all user groups working too same goal , respecting each user in the hunting community . I’m ranting now. But let’s try and all see there are many issues at hand not just the almighty east side elk
I'll tell ya I agree with some of what you say.
As far as ATV,SXS,motorized bicycle,motor bike , Its out of hand man. I believe everything has a place and all that.
Mostly talking about the east side of the state and co-operative road closer agreements between timber company's and WDFW. This going around gates,running 100 miles of road a day. On private timber land ,that they are nice enough to give free walk access to thousands of acres.
It's out of control,it's disrespectful, and offenders should be charged with tresspassing charges. Your only allowed to be there if you follow the rules. Can't follow the rules,get charge with criminal trespass. I do feel for the guy that may down something and may not be able to pack it out. And sneaks in to get his kill out quickly. But this is not the case 9/10 times.
ENFORCEMENT!!!!!!! On all regulations right now is a HUGE problem.
Predators contribute to this problem as well.
You can kill every predator to extinction right now,and we would still have the same problem.
It's like the wild west out there right now. I believe there is huge problems on the regulations/enforcement home front that need addressed before we can point the finger at predators.
I'm sorry but the predator excuses are getting old ,when some of the stuff I see is just re-donk-uless.