Post by: Kola16 on February 15, 2022, 05:15:24 PM
https://www.goskagit.com/news/environment/sauk-suiattle-tribe-seattle-city-light-violating-rights-of-salmon-under-natural-law/article_21d854ef-4a1d-5204-b12c-0b70ec613cfe.html (https://www.goskagit.com/news/environment/sauk-suiattle-tribe-seattle-city-light-violating-rights-of-salmon-under-natural-law/article_21d854ef-4a1d-5204-b12c-0b70ec613cfe.html)
Quote
For the Sauk-Suiattle Indian Tribe, the city of Seattle’s hydroelectric dams on the upper Skagit River have caused harm to tribal members, its collective tribal culture and the the tribe’s spiritual beliefs.
While lawsuits the tribe filed last year against Seattle regarding fish passage and what it believes is the city providing false information play out in county and federal courts, the tribe has filed a third lawsuit in Sauk-Suiattle Tribal Court to address its concerns over what it calls natural law.
According to the lawsuit, natural laws are unwritten and found instead in values, beliefs, practices, customs and traditions practiced and passed on through language, stories, songs, dances, ceremonies and the leadership of elders. According to the lawsuit, the three dams in Seattle’s Skagit River Hydroelectric Project were built without consultation with the tribe, inundated sites of cultural significance to the tribe, impeded salmon from advancing up the Skagit River, and resulted in a loss of spawning and rearing habitat for salmon throughout the watershed.
The lawsuit says that Seattle’s assertion that fish never migrated above its dams conflicts with longstanding tribal histories shared verbally throughout generations, and that the city’s insistence that the struggles of Skagit River salmon have to do with overfishing and estuary habitat has caused strife in the community, including a devaluing of local tribes and harassment of tribal members.
"The Sauk-Suiattle Tribe, with vocal support by the Upper Skagit Tribe, Skagit County, and others is suing Seattle City Lights in 3 different courts to get fish passage at the 3 impassable dams on the upper portion of the Skagit River. Seattle City lights refuses, saying that there is no evidence that anadromous fish used the upper portion of the river. The lawsuit filed argues Seattle City Light is operating its three hydroelectric dams on the Skagit River in a manner that violates state law and is contrary to Section 27 of the Washington state Constitution, which forbids dams from blocking fish passage, unless otherwise provisioned."
I am not sure what the rest of you think, but I hope the Tribes win this. What do you all think? Could salmon have made it through this section of river before the dams were there?
Post by: Special T on February 15, 2022, 05:27:36 PM
Perhaps they can install one of those new Whoosh salmon cannons!
Post by: grundy53 on February 15, 2022, 05:44:01 PM
I love it! Seattle being the environmental, cultural inclusive city being sued by the Tribes! It doesnt get any better IMO.Don't forget, they are the greenest utility in the nation! Lol. Unless you mess with their money...
Perhaps they can install one of those new Whoosh salmon cannons!
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on February 15, 2022, 05:50:21 PM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on February 15, 2022, 05:51:43 PM
Post by: OutHouse on February 15, 2022, 05:55:19 PM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on February 15, 2022, 05:59:15 PM
Post by: Special T on February 15, 2022, 06:50:42 PM
The environmental compassionate, culturally inclusive city is willing to piss away 230 million a year on NOT fixing the homeless problem... Howevery they are too cheap to expand the potential spawning grounds of salmon? What about the starving orcas? What about tribes? I mean come on you arnt willing to spread some cheddar around for all the things you profess to embrace? Dosnt seem very inclusive to me! Not willing to put you money where your mouth is
?
Post by: HntnFsh on February 15, 2022, 06:59:59 PM
Post by: HntnFsh on February 15, 2022, 07:01:14 PM
Post by: metlhead on February 15, 2022, 08:32:46 PM
Post by: Remnar on February 15, 2022, 08:38:26 PM
Same answer after looking at the video.:yeah:
Post by: Kola16 on February 15, 2022, 08:43:14 PM
Same answer after looking at the video.I agree. I've seen videos of salmon and steelhead getting past worse than that. That is also a video taken at one moment in time. There are runs that happen many months out of the year at different times and different flows including low flow.
There is no evidence that anadromous fish did NOT spawn above the dams pre-dams. There ARE claims from the Native tribes that fish did spawn past the dams pre-dams. These tribes have been there for at least 8500 years.
If the tribe is correct about requiring fish passage in rivers in the WA constitution, it seems like the dams require fish passage? Regardless if there were or weren't anadromous fish above the dams pre-dams.
I was thinking the Whooshh system too. It seems like it would be the cheapest solution and satisfy all parties. There are countless miles of spawning grounds above the dams that would equate to roughly a million returning adult anadromous fish. Thats a lot of wild fish.
It seems like this "no dams without fish passage unless otherwise noted" would apply to the Chief Joseph and Grand Coulee dams too? I would be down for more fish passage on the Columbia! Hundreds of miles of spawning habitat!
Post by: Kola16 on February 15, 2022, 09:21:08 PM
This water is cooking too. There are lots of times in the year that the upper Skagit portion doesn't flow this fast...
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on February 16, 2022, 04:35:55 AM
It goes thru the mountain in a tunnel out the power house in Newhalem.😉
Post by: Stein on February 16, 2022, 05:33:07 AM
So lets just say for arguments sake that Seattle City Light is correct and salmon couldnt het past the damn.
The environmental compassionate, culturally inclusive city is willing to piss away 230 million a year on NOT fixing the homeless problem... Howevery they are too cheap to expand the potential spawning grounds of salmon? What about the starving orcas? What about tribes? I mean come on you arnt willing to spread some cheddar around for all the things you profess to embrace? Dosnt seem very inclusive to me! Not willing to put you money where your mouth is
?
Yeah, lots of slacktivism in Seattle. How many millions of gallons of raw sewage end up in PS every year? Same with Portland. They push to penalize other people but don't seem to mind their own activities or clean up their act. It's always the other guy that is the problem.
Unfortunately the only way they move is when they get sued.
Post by: Angry Perch on February 16, 2022, 07:13:00 AM
Post by: Kola16 on February 16, 2022, 08:21:21 AM
The video I posted really doesn’t actually show the height and force of the water coming down that narrow gap, and the Skagit doesn’t thru there at all unless they are releasing overflow water.So you attached a video that "doesn't actually show" anything? You forgot to read all the posts. It's obvious you work for Seattle :lol4:
It goes thru the mountain in a tunnel out the power house in Newhalem.😉
Post by: salt n sage90 on February 16, 2022, 09:35:38 AM
You can bet that the tribe would have their nets stretching across the river as high up as they can go as soon as fish started up there.
Im not saying fish didn't go up there or did. But I see no reason why if those dams weren't there and Gorge, Diablo, Ross and Ruby Arm were just stretches of river instead of lakes that salmon wouldn't be up there.
Rivers rage and wane, salmon make it up some treacherous stuff.
Just my thought.
Post by: davew on February 16, 2022, 09:44:51 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on February 16, 2022, 09:46:16 AM
Post by: Fishmaker57 on February 16, 2022, 10:15:49 AM
Today, less the 25,000 Chum make it up the river, and native winter Steelhead are almost gone. Yes, poor logging practices didn't help, but that really isn't as much of an issue today. The 5 different Tribes that fish the Skagit are only doing what they have been allowed to do, but blaming the dams for the decline is laughable and absurd. Those dams were there long before the decline in runs. It's not that I am against re-introduction above the dams, if indeed there were fish spawning in those areas, but the gorge is as close to a physical barrier as I have seen, given the amount of water that would flow down it unrestricted.
:twocents:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on February 16, 2022, 10:36:47 AM
So nobody wants to discuss the elephant in the room? I cut my teeth fishing winter Steelhead on the Skagit, have ran the entire river at one point or another, and have fished every species it has to offer. In the late 70's and early 80's, the gravel bars between Lyman and Concrete were piled two feet high with Chum carcasses when fishing for Winter Steelhead. The run averaged 250,000 each year. Through the 50's and 60's, native winter Steelhead numbers were huge; sportsmen would average 20,000 or more each year. There were at least 15 guides working the river when I fished it.Yeah, there are a number of rivers out there with no barriers. They were once a similar description to your post too, now are quite empty.
Today, less the 25,000 Chum make it up the river, and native winter Steelhead are almost gone. Yes, poor logging practices didn't help, but that really isn't as much of an issue today. The 5 different Tribes that fish the Skagit are only doing what they have been allowed to do, but blaming the dams for the decline is laughable and absurd. Those dams were there long before the decline in runs. It's not that I am against re-introduction above the dams, if indeed there were fish spawning in those areas, but the gorge is as close to a physical barrier as I have seen, given the amount of water that would flow down it unrestricted.
:twocents:
Had one neighbor that hikes a lot telling me about liking to walk around by all the healthy rivers, and getting all the fresh air and seeing the clean water. Didn't like it too much when I said if the river actually was healthy he wouldn't want to breathe the air because of all the rotting carcasses.
Post by: Kola16 on February 16, 2022, 10:59:28 AM
Today, less the 25,000 Chum make it up the river, and native winter Steelhead are almost gone. Yes, poor logging practices didn't help, but that really isn't as much of an issue today. The 5 different Tribes that fish the Skagit are only doing what they have been allowed to do, but blaming the dams for the decline is laughable and absurd. Those dams were there long before the decline in runs. It's not that I am against re-introduction above the dams, if indeed there were fish spawning in those areas, but the gorge is as close to a physical barrier as I have seen, given the amount of water that would flow down it unrestricted.So are you solely blaming the Natives for Skagit River's salmon and steelhead decline?
:twocents:
- Our nearby international waters have unrestricted salmon fishing from Asian countries
- Derelict nets litter river mouths from idiots throwing hay bails down the river
- We have an overpopulation of pinnipeds
- Our river levels are lowering and water temperatures rising
- We have lost the majority of our spawning and rearing habitat
- The natural flow of the river is completely altered
- There are 3 dams blocking sensational spawning grounds if they can be reached
- Non-Native commercial fishing nets
To call the Natives the sole cause of salmon decline is ignorant when any one of the reasons above could be solely blamed. In all likelihood:; however, it is a combination of multiple reasons. It is scary how many problems our salmon face and is really a miracle they still exist. The amount of fish that Natives take is dismal compared to the amount of salmon taken from reasons listed above.
Can you blame the Natives for wanting fish runs like we/they had? I know I want more fish!
Post by: Widgeondeke on February 16, 2022, 11:12:32 AM
from Newhalem to the Gorge dam(2.35 miles), the elevation loss(225') is equal to 1-3/4" of elevation for every 12" traveled.
From Newhalem to Ross dam(10 miles) it drops 810' and maintains close to 1-1/2" every 12"
Someone mentioned Tumwater Canyon, so here are those #'s. It is 11.25 miles and drops 540', so that is only 1" every 12", similar to many roofs and ADA ramps.
It is 50-75% less slope than the upper Skagit
I am sure some areas are less and some are more :twocents:
I am not blaming anyone, just got slightly technical. there might be a river somewhere with 1.5-1.75" of slope where fish travel to spawn.
width of channel would be another factor as are snow & rainfall amounts
Post by: Fishmaker57 on February 16, 2022, 11:27:24 AM
Today, less the 25,000 Chum make it up the river, and native winter Steelhead are almost gone. Yes, poor logging practices didn't help, but that really isn't as much of an issue today. The 5 different Tribes that fish the Skagit are only doing what they have been allowed to do, but blaming the dams for the decline is laughable and absurd. Those dams were there long before the decline in runs. It's not that I am against re-introduction above the dams, if indeed there were fish spawning in those areas, but the gorge is as close to a physical barrier as I have seen, given the amount of water that would flow down it unrestricted.So are you solely blaming the Natives for Skagit River's salmon and steelhead decline?
:twocents:
- Our nearby international waters have unrestricted salmon fishing from Asian countries
- Derelict nets litter river mouths from idiots throwing hay bails down the river
- We have an overpopulation of pinnipeds
- Our river levels are lowering and water temperatures rising
- We have lost the majority of our spawning and rearing habitat
- The natural flow of the river is completely altered
- There are 3 dams blocking sensational spawning grounds if they can be reached
- Non-Native commercial fishing nets
To call the Natives the sole cause of salmon decline is ignorant when any one of the reasons above could be solely blamed. In all likelihood:; however, it is a combination of multiple reasons. It is scary how many problems our salmon face and is really a miracle they still exist. The amount of fish that Natives take is dismal compared to the amount of salmon taken from reasons listed above.
Can you blame the Natives for wanting fish runs like we/they had? I know I want more fish!
Solely? No, as you stated there are other mitigating factors, but they Tribes are the only ones drift netting the Chum on the Skagit for an egg fishery. I have witnessed this many times. They throw the dead males overboard, strip the females eggs, then throw theater carcass in the river. This may be a past practice now, but it was rampant in years past. Yes, we have an over population of pinnipeds, and open ocean commercial fishing is an issue, but based on their locations, they don't impact Chum or Steelhead as much as Chinook and Sockeye.
Again, I agree there is habitat above the blocked area, but IF Salmon and Steelhead ever existed in those locations, it's a moot point. The flow of the river has actually improved due to flow requirements included in the last relicensing effort. The habitat, due to the placement of woody debris and rearing side channels, is as good as it's ever been in the last 50 years. In a large part, the Tribes are behind this effort as well, and I am glad they are working every angle to restore runs, but overfishing in the river has played a large part of the decline. Non-native commercial fishing opportunities are so limited in Puget Sound that it really doesn't factor into the discussion.
I am not ignorant of any of these points, as I have spent the last 32 years involved in Salmon and Steelhead every day.
Post by: 2MANY on February 16, 2022, 11:42:19 AM
Man it was once good.
It's time to tear the dams out and let Elon plug his Tesla into the generator on his exercise bike.
Post by: Special T on February 16, 2022, 11:51:29 AM
The issue is not just fish passage through the canyon. The dams block the movement of gravel and woody debris below them. There is almost no spawning habitat from the dams all the way down to Bacon Creek. Another issue is how the irregular flow through the dams dewaters spawning beds below. It's complicated.
No shortage of wood or gravel on the Skagit moving around Below them. I personally despise talk of removing damns and the clean energy they they provide. The irony for me is just too thick that Seatlle is fighting some mitigation. The whoosh system seems to be an exceptional mitigation tool that seems effective, reasonable cost, and is home grown adaptable technology.
Post by: 2MANY on February 16, 2022, 12:02:34 PM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on February 16, 2022, 12:05:18 PM
Whoosh the bill right to the power companies who have profited on the destruction of our fishing resource.
Who will, in order to offset those costs raise their rates....
Post by: 2MANY on February 16, 2022, 12:09:19 PM
Letting them off the hook after they have flooded many families homesteads is completely unacceptable.
For the good of the people my A$$.
Post by: Kola16 on February 17, 2022, 12:54:35 PM
Solely? No, as you stated there are other mitigating factors, but they Tribes are the only ones drift netting the Chum on the Skagit for an egg fishery. I have witnessed this many times. They throw the dead males overboard, strip the females eggs, then throw theater carcass in the river. This may be a past practice now, but it was rampant in years past. Yes, we have an over population of pinnipeds, and open ocean commercial fishing is an issue, but based on their locations, they don't impact Chum or Steelhead as much as Chinook and Sockeye.Gotcha. Yes some Native practices are very frustrating like egg stripping.
Again, I agree there is habitat above the blocked area, but IF Salmon and Steelhead ever existed in those locations, it's a moot point. The flow of the river has actually improved due to flow requirements included in the last relicensing effort. The habitat, due to the placement of woody debris and rearing side channels, is as good as it's ever been in the last 50 years. In a large part, the Tribes are behind this effort as well, and I am glad they are working every angle to restore runs, but overfishing in the river has played a large part of the decline. Non-native commercial fishing opportunities are so limited in Puget Sound that it really doesn't factor into the discussion.
I am not ignorant of any of these points, as I have spent the last 32 years involved in Salmon and Steelhead every day.