Post by: James on March 09, 2022, 10:51:55 AM
Goals:
-Short as possible overall barrel length for maneuvering in the thick jungle of western WA
-Still be able to ethically harvest game to at least 350 yards with copper bullets.
-As corrosion resistant as possible.
-Be very comfortable, ergonomic, and easy to carry while still hunting
-1 MOA accuracy or better, because only accurate rifles are interesting.
Current rough plan:
-Savage short action chambered in 300WSM
-8-10” barrel with a short as possible suppressor. Looking at reflex suppressors that would make my overall length 14-16” but am open to any ideas to get this shorter.
-Hoping to use factory ammo with copper bullets in the 150-180 grain range (Barnes, Hornady GMX/CX, etc.)
-Going to start off with a wooden stock I carve myself from a blank. Once I get everything how I like it I might made another out of composites. Plan is to have flush cups on the side of the stock for an easy two point patrol carry.
Why savage? Other than the standard savage reasons, I really like tang safety’s for still hunting.
Why suppressed? While I don’t want the extra length, when still hunting I usually don’t have time to put in hearing protection before I shoot.
Why 8-10” barrel? In my limited research the first 8” is where the bulk of the bullet acceleration takes place. A few different estimates seem to indicate I can get 308 win velocities at this barrel length from a 300 wsm, so copper bullets should still be able to expand to at least 350 yards.
Why factory ammo? Because I don’t reload and I don’t need another hobbies. Am I crazy hoping to be able to get factory copper ammo to work in such an uncommon rifle configuration?
Not sure on rifle twist yet, maybe 1-10 or 1-9? I haven’t run any of the equations, but short barrel with copper bullets maybe a faster twist rate is needed?
Am I out of line to expect 308 win velocity’s with a short barrel 300 WSM?
General feedback and thoughts? Mistakes? Things I am overlooking? Other ideas to consider?
Post by: sjhgraysage on March 09, 2022, 12:05:54 PM
Post by: James on March 09, 2022, 12:11:40 PM
I don't think a "Rifle" can legally have a barrel less than 16" long???
If you work though the proper legal process, pay some fees, it can be registered as a short barreled rifle.
Post by: Stein on March 09, 2022, 12:14:30 PM
Post by: Skillet on March 09, 2022, 12:17:16 PM
https://www.savagearms.com/content?p=firearms&a=product_summary&s=57018
A 20" barrel is plenty maneuverable through western-Washington elk country, the 308 out of a 20" is easily 350 yards elk-capable, and has a very tame muzzle blast.
:twocents:
Post by: b23 on March 09, 2022, 12:23:32 PM
Post by: LDennis24 on March 09, 2022, 12:34:45 PM
Post by: James on March 09, 2022, 12:36:10 PM
Maybe just buy one of these instead. https://christensenarms.com/modern-precision-pistol/
It's been very encouraging to me to see the influence from personal defense, precision rifle, etc trickling their way into hunting rifles the last few years.
So far I seem to find ways to nit pick the offerings available currently (that I know about) to the point I am not interested in buying them, but have been wondering if I just need to wait longer and it will be offered.
Faxon had a really interesting 8" barrel Rem700 at shot show this year.
Post by: James on March 09, 2022, 12:42:40 PM
Just get one of these...
I have considered it, and am still open to the idea.
What has been holding me back:
-I really want a reflex suppressor, the tube magazine seems to be a challenge there.
-I am trying to avoid having more calibers than I already do, especially something as specific as a lever gun caliber.
I want this to be a purpose built gun, but hoping to make aspects of it useful to my other guns/future builds as possible. Lever gun stuff I am worried might be an orphan for me.
Post by: James on March 09, 2022, 12:52:35 PM
Along with placing way too high of a premium on a short barrel in the elk woods, I think you're trying to reinvent the wheel.
https://www.savagearms.com/content?p=firearms&a=product_summary&s=57018
A 20" barrel is plenty maneuverable through western-Washington elk country, the 308 out of a 20" is easily 350 yards elk-capable, and has a very tame muzzle blast.
:twocents:
I hear what you are saying, and maybe I am trying to re-invent the wheel, but I have always hunted with a 22” barrel in the elk woods and no doubt made it work, but never really liked it.
Here is why I want to go as short as possible other than the standard “it’s close quarters and thick” reason.
When still hunting and caring my rifle in hand, I don’t glass as often as I should. Switching to a 2 point patrol style carry with a safari sling has me glassing at the rate I need to be for still hunting, but then means the length of the rifle is a pain when traversing terrain, thick vegetation, climbing over logs, crossing rivers, etc.
A short rifle carried safari style would allow me to maximize my hunting effectiveness and minimize my frustration.
I wonder if some of our members that have served in the military might have some good thoughts on this.
Post by: buckfvr on March 09, 2022, 01:32:13 PM
Post by: Russ McDonald on March 09, 2022, 01:33:09 PM
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Post by: jrebel on March 09, 2022, 01:50:12 PM
1. Monolithic bullets like speed and will not perform well unless you have decent velocities. I'm not sure you can get said velocities out of an 8-10" barrel with bullets suited for an elk or suited for 350 yard shots.
2. 300 wsm's performance is going to be greatly diminished in such a short barrel. I think there are far better rounds to play with if seriously considering an 8-10" barrel. Not to mention....holding on to a 300 wsm out of an 8-10 inch barrel would be fun to watch!! Bet it bucks like a bronc even with a suppressor. :chuckle: :chuckle:
I like tinkering....so if you have the money to throw at it, go for it!! I want to see the finished product along with video of it's performance....you might be on to the next best thing in rifle chamberings.
Post by: kselkhunter on March 09, 2022, 01:52:57 PM
I'm a fan of lever guns for western woods carry. A Browning BLR is a great choice. BLRs are nice in that you can use pointed bullets (no tube magazine), and you could put a suppressor on it. And plenty of caliber choices for elk. They have nice stainless takedown models as well. I like the 358 Win or 308 Win in the 20" barrel.
Otherwise there are 20" barrel standard options from other gun manufacturers. Some in bolt gun options.
My western woods elk rifle in the thicker forest areas is a Marlin 336W that I had rebored to 356 Winchester, and I changed out the stock for the composite stock from Ranger Point Precision. I use a red dot on mine, but some guys put a lightweight scope on theirs for better accuracy at the longer ranges. My rifle is <6lbs as set up. Great for carrying, and the recoil pad on the Ranger Point stock does a great job of absorbing recoil. If I were buying new, I'd get the BLR in stainless takedown with 358Win.
Post by: fly-by on March 09, 2022, 02:58:37 PM
I'm doing a similar project but not as extreme:
Donor rifle in the safe - Remington 700 XCR in .300 WSM
Chassis on the shelf - Woox Exactus
Silencer in jail for a few more months - Silencerco Harvester Evo
Barrel profile will allow a 9/16-24 mount when cut back to a little under 20 inches. 1/2-28 threads are unsafe in my opinion, 5/8-24 results in too short a barrel.
If you are going to do a pistol or SBR build I would just go with a .308.
Post by: James on March 09, 2022, 03:17:43 PM
If going with short barrel why get a magnum? You're just wasting powder.
I'm a fan of lever guns for western woods carry. A Browning BLR is a great choice. BLRs are nice in that you can use pointed bullets (no tube magazine), and you could put a suppressor on it. And plenty of caliber choices for elk. They have nice stainless takedown models as well. I like the 358 Win or 308 Win in the 20" barrel.
Otherwise there are 20" barrel standard options from other gun manufacturers. Some in bolt gun options.
My western woods elk rifle in the thicker forest areas is a Marlin 336W that I had rebored to 356 Winchester, and I changed out the stock for the composite stock from Ranger Point Precision. I use a red dot on mine, but some guys put a lightweight scope on theirs for better accuracy at the longer ranges. My rifle is <6lbs as set up. Great for carrying, and the recoil pad on the Ranger Point stock does a great job of absorbing recoil. If I were buying new, I'd get the BLR in stainless takedown with 358Win.
I haven’t looked at the 358 win, but the problem with something like a 308 win is that with the short barrel it will be too anemic, to the point that copper bullets are not able to be used. My estimates indicate a 300WSM on the other hand with this short of a barrel will be able to produce 22in 308 win velocities with the same weight bullet. That meets my 350ish yard target well.
Two thoughts....and can't verify either but would look into before I went down the road your going down.
1. Monolithic bullets like speed and will not perform well unless you have decent velocities. I'm not sure you can get said velocities out of an 8-10" barrel with bullets suited for an elk or suited for 350 yard shots.
2. 300 wsm's performance is going to be greatly diminished in such a short barrel. I think there are far better rounds to play with if seriously considering an 8-10" barrel. Not to mention....holding on to a 300 wsm out of an 8-10 inch barrel would be fun to watch!! Bet it bucks like a bronc even with a suppressor. :chuckle: :chuckle:
I like tinkering....so if you have the money to throw at it, go for it!! I want to see the finished product along with video of it's performance....you might be on to the next best thing in rifle chamberings.
Your first point is exactly why I have honed in on a 300 wsm. My estimates indicate I should be able to get 22” barrel 308 win velocities with a 8-10” 300 wsm. Many more pedestrian rounds in this short of a barrel drop the velocity too much.
Yes but if your going to hubt with it this year you better get on it. I will raise the question though. If you pin or permanenly attach a silence to say a 10" barrel and it come outnto over 16" that would remedy the sbr right? I remeber somwwhere this was discussed. Sbr in the military are for close quarter combat. Longer shots are loner barreled 7.62 caliber or larger.
Solid point on the timelines and a pinned suppressor as a way to get around SBR registration.
Not being 100% sure of my own opinion but right off the bat I feel as though any factory ammo made for 3oo wsm will have powder of a burn rate for 24" barrels and with the super short barrel you want, Im certain youd have a flame thrower, not a hunting rifle. No way that short tube is going to burn factory ammo powder EFFICIENTLY. I believe you would have to experiment with faster burning powders far below what the book states for 24" barrels. I doubt youd even find powder recommendations IN A BOOK for your application. :twocents:
I am fully aware factory loaded 300WSM ammo will not be optimize for this, but my hope is that it will work well enough, but as you pointed out the real risk is if it doesn't. I am trying to optimize the overall hunting package, and willing to make a number of sacrifices, ballistics is one of them. I am just trying to figure out if it will all come together in the end.
Post by: Russ McDonald on March 09, 2022, 03:49:02 PM
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Post by: bearpaw on March 09, 2022, 04:05:32 PM
You might also send a message to @yorketransport, he has a lot of knowledge regarding high performance calibers in short barrels.
Post by: James on March 09, 2022, 04:06:21 PM
So thinking more about this ans talking to some friend. You are not going to get 350 yards with a short barrel very accuratelyans with much velocity.
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I am curious why you and your friend think so.
Shorter barrel has a lower slenderness ratio so it is stiffer for a given diameter.
Do you think I am not going to be getting the muzzle velocities I am predicting?
Do you think I will not be able to get a twist rate that can stabilize the bullet? The bullet should have the same RPM of a 22” barrel 308 win with a similar bullet.
Something I am not thinking of?
Post by: James on March 09, 2022, 04:13:13 PM
A magnum is a poor choice for a short barrel and as mentioned you will need to "very carefully" experiment with powders. My advice would be to discuss with a knowledgeable gunsmith.
You might also send a message to @yorketransport, he has a lot of knowledge regarding high performance calibers in short barrels.
I guess what I don’t understand is why magnum calibers are a poor choice in this application.
Because when I run the numbers magnum calibers seem to be the only ones that could work, but it is very possible I am missing something.
I have talked to one gunsmith I trust and he thought the biggest risk was if factory ammo would work well enough and it would most likely be a pain to dial in a load for it. I have another I am going to bounce this off of.
Thank you, good call, I have seen some of Yorke’s his builds on here. He certainly seems to like to do some non typical stuff, hopefully he will have some ideas.
Post by: NRA4LIFE on March 09, 2022, 04:16:33 PM
Post by: bearpaw on March 09, 2022, 04:22:47 PM
A magnum is a poor choice for a short barrel and as mentioned you will need to "very carefully" experiment with powders. My advice would be to discuss with a knowledgeable gunsmith.
You might also send a message to @yorketransport, he has a lot of knowledge regarding high performance calibers in short barrels.
I guess what I don’t understand is why magnum calibers are a poor choice in this application.
Because when I run the numbers magnum calibers seem to be the only ones that could work, but it is very possible I am missing something.
I have talked to one gunsmith I trust and he thought the biggest risk was if factory ammo would work well enough and it would most likely be a pain to dial in a load for it. I have another I am going to bounce this off of.
Thank you, good call, I have seen some of Yorke’s his builds on here. He certainly seems to like to do some non typical stuff, hopefully he will have some ideas.
Generally magnum factory ammo is set up for using the length of a 24" or longer barrel to burn the powder. It would be a pain to try a lot of different powders handloading to find what works best, but certainly possible to do, one of the large pistol powders might perform the best, but I don't know, I'm only guessing. I wonder if a large case with a straighter shoulder would do better with fast burning powders than the WSM case can do? I'm not the right person to offer advice, I'm just pointing out some ideas. Send yorketransport a message, he is much more knowledgeable than most people regarding pistol length barrels.
Post by: MeatMissile on March 09, 2022, 04:27:06 PM
Post by: bearpaw on March 09, 2022, 04:29:46 PM
I’d be surprised if you got 2000fps with a 10 inch barrel. That is at the BOTTOM end for expansion with most monolithic bullets....at the muzzle. Check out TC Contender pistol load data. They often use faster powders to get the most out of their short barrels.
:yeah: Probably going to need a long-range style of bullet that will open with minimal velocity, I think the LRX are rated at 1600 fps?
Post by: huntandjeep on March 09, 2022, 04:53:59 PM
Probably be better off like others have suggested and just get a lever action..
Post by: BigGoonTuna on March 09, 2022, 05:20:13 PM
I would look at something with a lot more favorable expansion ratio to start with, a .358 would be a really good choice in a short barreled rifle.
The whole thing about certain chamberings being set up for a barrel length gets thrown around a lot, you can handload a smaller charge of faster powder to decrease muzzle blast, but the fastest(velocity wise) powder in a 24" barrel will still be the fastest powder in a 10" barrel. I don't think i would want to shoot a 10" .300 WSM even with a can on it, without at least wearing earplugs under my muffs.
Post by: huntandjeep on March 09, 2022, 05:29:17 PM
. I don't think i would want to shoot a 10" .300 WSM even with a can on it, without at least wearing earplugs under my muffs.My 10" AR in 223 is hell.on the ears with no can .
Post by: jrebel on March 09, 2022, 05:42:16 PM
A chambering I would seriously consider if you hell bent on a 10" rifle with a range of 350 yards......would be the 460 Smith and Wesson. it is capable of shooting that range and with the right ammo may even be capable of killing one. I've see some pretty amazing shots with the 460 our of a custom shop revolver and it may be your ticket to pulling this off.
With all that said, why not just by the revolver and save yourself a little money??
Post by: Fshnpole on March 09, 2022, 05:43:23 PM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on March 09, 2022, 07:08:27 PM
Post by: hunter399 on March 09, 2022, 08:08:14 PM
16 or 18 in barrel.
Yes its heavy ,but also suppresser ready.
Very fast follow up shots ,shoot till it's down.
My ar10 average about 2700 fps in 308 with an 18 in barrel.
308 uses a faster burn powder and can still get decent velocity in a short barrel ,down to 16 in.
Post by: James on March 09, 2022, 09:08:07 PM
I knew bullet acceleration though the length of a barrel isn’t linear, but it wasn’t until I dug into it that I got some hope that something like a 300 wsm could work.
Take a look at the pressure, velocity, and distance graphs. Now these are for a .270 win, but from what I can tell on reloading software this trend holds true for most modern rifle calibers.
The bullet velocity curve has an inflection point at about 5” of barrel length, meaning the acceleration of the bullet is less and less after 5” of barrel. The real heavy lifting gets done very early on, and I think we know that all instinctually. Adding 2” of barrel length to 16” rifle generally results in a larger increase in velocity than adding 2” of barrel to a 28” rifle (everything else being equal).
(https://i.imgur.com/URzZaHT.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/VTMVMVB.jpg)
Now the big question, is this all correct? I Don’t know, but the three different ways I have estimated muzzle velocity were all in the same ballpark (2800 ft/sec), so that’s a good sign. I should prob see how the savage striker, savage 110 PCS, Remington XP-100, T/C Encore, etc crowd is doing their thing.
Post by: James on March 09, 2022, 09:29:18 PM
I totally understand and can see value of using a big bore handgun or lever gun for this application. You guys might be totally right that is the best call.
But the guys recommending things like 308, 358 win, etc. How are you guys deriving your muzzle velocities and what are you getting for an 8-10" barrel? When I run the numbers I can't get anything high enough to work for this application. Only calibers like 300 wsm, 270 wsm, 300 wm, etc. seem to put out numbers that make this project worthwhile.
I would like to understand how we are getting such opposite results.
Post by: yorketransport on March 09, 2022, 10:25:22 PM
The only issue I see with your plan has nothing to do with the gun itself, just with the factory ammo requirement. In order for your plan to work effectively, you need to think outside the box (literally I suppose). You'd like to use monometal bullets if possible, which is already going to limit your options for factory loads. The problem you'll have next is finding factory loads using the appropriate bullet to accomplish your goal. You'll actually want a bullet in the 130gr range to help keep your velocity up. You're looking to use it at moderate ranges (inside 350), so BC isn't a big deal. What you really need is a lighter bullet at a higher velocity to make sure the bullet performs on impact. Some of the ammo for places like DoubleTap and Copper Creek might have something that would work for you.
Working within the parameters you initially put out here, the only thing you need to do is locate an ammo company that either currently loads lightweight bullets for the 300 WSM, or is willing to custom load the ammo for you. You could check with some of the custom ammo shops about loading ammo using the lightweight bullet from Barnes, Cutting Edge, or Hammer. A 125-130gr copper bullet with a muzzle velocity of around 2500 fps should be possible from a 10" barrel without too much effort.
Here's where I'll completely change your plan and suggest what I'd do to accomplish the same goal. :chuckle:
Unlike everyone who's telling you to go with a smaller chambering, I'd go bigger and look at something like the 30 Nosler or 300 PRC. The only way to maintain velocity while taking away barrel length is to add powder. If you go too big though you'll have a hard time getting a good case fill when using lightweight bullets with an appropriate powder. It can still work, I just don't like getting down into the 80% case fill range. Powder choice is influenced more by bullet weight than barrel length, so that isn't even a consideration for me.
The barrel length would have a lot to do with how I wanted the gun to balance. The really short barrel is going to make the gun balance in a weird spot. I'd look at a 12" barrel so that it comes in around 18" with your suppressor on there. I just don't like guns with too much weight in the buttstock.
I'm not a suppressor guy, so I can't provide any intelligent or informed information on that aspect. I would assume that it's going to be tough to find a suppressor that's rated for a very short barreled 300 mag (in any form). That's a lot of muzzle pressure to contain and I'm not sure how many suppressors can handle that.
Post by: dreadi on March 09, 2022, 10:33:57 PM
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Post by: b23 on March 09, 2022, 10:35:44 PM
FWIW, running a 300WSM with a 10in tube and 200gr bullet through QL it says RL26 will be the best powder for velocity and at max chamber pressure 2265 fps.
Running the same build spec and bullet but chambered in 308 QL says CFE223 is the best powder and at max pressure 2085 fps.
BUT, to get that extra 180fps with the 300 WSM you'll be using 25.3 grains more powder.
If I were insistent on building such a short barreled setup I think I'd look at doing a .338 maybe something like the 338 Ruger Compact Mag or even necking up the 308 to 338.
QL says a 10in 338 RCM with 200gr bullet will go 2300 using 63gr CFE223 and a 338-308 will go 2210 burning 46.7gr powder. IMO, either one of those, in such a short build, would be a better choice than the 300 WSM.
Post by: hunter399 on March 10, 2022, 05:55:30 AM
You may think most of the magic happens at the first five inch of barrel. But with slow burn powders,which most magnum calibers use ,that bullet is picking up speed till it hits the end of the muzzle. Basically pressure and burning powder are pushing the bullet.
Even if all the powder burns in 5 in of barrel all the pressure will be lost at 10 in or at the end of the barrel.
That's why let's say my ar10 ,I can stick the same rounds in my bolt gun ,2850 velocity,stick them in my ar10 ,2700 or less ,some of that pressure is delivered back to the action.
18 in barrel ,gas system,vs,bolt action with 22in barrel.
I do thinks it's a great idea,if you have the money to burn.
I agree with dreadi ,build it,kill elk.
There are lots of other calibers that would reach the same velocity like a ,45/70,30-30,300 blk,308 loaded with a 200 grain bullet. You could get a 30-06 right out the box loaded with factory 220 grain bullet and be in the same boat or better.
I think you would end up with similar results as these.
Post by: Alchase on March 10, 2022, 06:42:45 AM
You wanted Critique here it is . 1st you need a $200 tax stamp for the SBR , then another $200 stamp for the Suppressor , then your going to have to pin and weld a $1000+ Suppressor to the rifle . Which can are you looking at ? Is it even rated for your 300WSM and the pressure ? If you go through all the above what's the decibel benefit making a 300 Wsm sound like a 30.06 ? Kinda defeats the purpose of a can . No way would I tie up one of my $1000+ Suppressors to one gun .
Probably be better off like others have suggested and just get a lever action..
:yeah:
Except, if you have an SBR stamp, no need to pin weld.
If you filed today for your Tax stamp and Suppressor, you would be extremely lucky to have them within six months.
Somethings to think about, first you are building a short barrelled rifle for hunting thick cover, but you require 300 yard accuracy. :dunno:
If I was to build a short barreled rifle, I would start with a caliber designed for short barrelled rifles. The 300 Blackout was specifically designed for this purpose. A 300 blk with a 100 yard zero, would have roughly a 2 ft. drop at 300 yards. Inside 200 yards it is would be optimal.
If going this way, I would choose a 9" barrel, the optimum length for the 300blk, on a AR platform.
Then again, if you just want to build a short barrelled rifle with a high caliber bullet just for kicks, literally :chuckle:, there are a couple guys on here that have built exactly what you want.
Post by: huntandjeep on March 10, 2022, 06:54:38 AM
Yeah not sure what I was thinking last night about the pin / weld combo.You wanted Critique here it is . 1st you need a $200 tax stamp for the SBR , then another $200 stamp for the Suppressor , then your going to have to pin and weld a $1000+ Suppressor to the rifle . Which can are you looking at ? Is it even rated for your 300WSM and the pressure ? If you go through all the above what's the decibel benefit making a 300 Wsm sound like a 30.06 ? Kinda defeats the purpose of a can . No way would I tie up one of my $1000+ Suppressors to one gun .
Probably be better off like others have suggested and just get a lever action..
:yeah:
Except, if you have an SBR stamp, no need to pin weld.
Post by: Caseknife on March 10, 2022, 07:00:59 AM
Get a Ruger Ranch in 450 Bushmaster, short barrel and lots of thump.
I know this isn't politically correct, but I have been hunting for over 40 years and killed plenty of elk and deer in the timber with all sorts of firearms and NEVER have used hearing protection. I can still hear. Have I lost hearing acuity, yes, but is it not from the many years of using 1/2" impact wrenches and air die grinders? I always use hearing protection at the range, but with only one shot or two while hunting, I don't think that is going to destroy your hearing any more than walking around with ear buds in listening to music blasting as we see all the time.
That said, build away, have fun.
Post by: MeatMissile on March 10, 2022, 07:05:44 AM
You may think most of the magic happens at the first five inch of barrel....
I read an article in COSMO that a majority of American women under 30 believe a longer barrel is necessary for any real magic.
Post by: fly-by on March 10, 2022, 07:11:23 AM
.300 WSM
Suppressed
Pick 2
This package is very handy and a lot less money/effort.
Post by: dreadi on March 10, 2022, 07:22:03 AM
Don't think anyone makes a suppressor rated for a 10" barreled 300 mag. The shortest are 20" for the 300 mags and up, 10" for the 223/5.56 capacity cartridges.
That’s not true.
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https://deadairsilencers.com/products/sandman-s/
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Post by: hunter399 on March 10, 2022, 07:39:20 AM
You may think most of the magic happens at the first five inch of barrel....
I read an article in COSMO that a majority of American women under 30 believe a longer barrel is necessary for any real magic.
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
What do most woman over 30 believe.
Sometimes you gotta make due with what God gave ya. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: kselkhunter on March 10, 2022, 08:17:23 AM
I guess my issue is with the physics of the plan. The best suppressors reduce roughly 23-26db (based on actual testing not marketing claims). Rifles in standard barrel lengths range from 150db-175db depending on chosen cartridge, and will vary from there based on how short you make the barrel. And unsuppressed 308 with 24" barrel is 156db, and with 20" barrel is 170db. A 10" barreled 300WSM hasn't been officially measured, but you're likely going to be pushing 180db-200db in that setup. 140db is the pain threshold level for hearing, and what suppressors are designed to get you below. In your desired setup, you're likely going to be in the 150-170db range with suppressor.
Plus with 10" barrel a portion of your powder isn't going to burn in a factory ammo cartridge, it's going to blow through the suppressor and out the barrel. Factory ammo isn't likely to perform like you think it will. You'd need to hand load and experiment with different powders to optimize velocity and powder burn.
I would call the suppressor company you're thinking of and asking them about the rating for 300WSM barrel specifically in 10" barrel. The cans will be in the 5-10" long range depending on company. So cutting your barrel and adding a can is going to put you back into the 16-20" barrel+suppressor length range.
Yes I realize the suppressor also helps calm recoil....but again you're creating excessive recoil by shooting a 300WSM in a 10" barrel and putting a suppressor on it to end up at the same recoil level (or higher) than you'd be at with a different cartridge choice.
Again, it sounds like a fun new gun project. But just make sure you understand the physics of it so you're not disappointed when your suppressed SBR is shooting at 160db ratings.
Post by: James on March 10, 2022, 09:12:34 AM
My buddy that is a gunsmith had a very similar response, in that, factory ammo is the part of my initial plan that is least likely to work out well.
My plan to balance the gun is make my own stock. The suppressor will help, but you are right it’s going to be a bunch of messing around.
Your recommended approach to use a light bullet and getting a highest possible muzzle velocity, I can see how that makes sense. I guess what I am surprised about (and maybe this shows my ignorance) is your comment about powders being barrel length agnostic. I just assumed faster burning powders in shorter barrels and slower in longer.
Because in my initial (and probably foolish) desire to use factory ammo I have also wondered if going the other direction with a heavy bullet and fast twist to increase the chamber pressure a bit and keep that bullet in the little short barrel a hair longer to burn as much powder as possible. It would lose some MV this way but the rotational energy would be higher and I am assuming that also helps drive bullet expansion. I have wondered if that’s the reason the new 8.6 blackout cartridge seems to take a super fast twist in a SBR to another level.
I appreciate your thoughts, especially the bullet weight and caliber choice. I really hadn’t thought of outsourcing to custom reloaders. I like that idea and if you have any recommendations they would be greatly appreciated.
This is the first interesting topic I've seen here in a while! :chuckle:
The only issue I see with your plan has nothing to do with the gun itself, just with the factory ammo requirement. In order for your plan to work effectively, you need to think outside the box (literally I suppose). You'd like to use monometal bullets if possible, which is already going to limit your options for factory loads. The problem you'll have next is finding factory loads using the appropriate bullet to accomplish your goal. You'll actually want a bullet in the 130gr range to help keep your velocity up. You're looking to use it at moderate ranges (inside 350), so BC isn't a big deal. What you really need is a lighter bullet at a higher velocity to make sure the bullet performs on impact. Some of the ammo for places like DoubleTap and Copper Creek might have something that would work for you.
Working within the parameters you initially put out here, the only thing you need to do is locate an ammo company that either currently loads lightweight bullets for the 300 WSM, or is willing to custom load the ammo for you. You could check with some of the custom ammo shops about loading ammo using the lightweight bullet from Barnes, Cutting Edge, or Hammer. A 125-130gr copper bullet with a muzzle velocity of around 2500 fps should be possible from a 10" barrel without too much effort.
Here's where I'll completely change your plan and suggest what I'd do to accomplish the same goal. :chuckle:
Unlike everyone who's telling you to go with a smaller chambering, I'd go bigger and look at something like the 30 Nosler or 300 PRC. The only way to maintain velocity while taking away barrel length is to add powder. If you go too big though you'll have a hard time getting a good case fill when using lightweight bullets with an appropriate powder. It can still work, I just don't like getting down into the 80% case fill range. Powder choice is influenced more by bullet weight than barrel length, so that isn't even a consideration for me.
The barrel length would have a lot to do with how I wanted the gun to balance. The really short barrel is going to make the gun balance in a weird spot. I'd look at a 12" barrel so that it comes in around 18" with your suppressor on there. I just don't like guns with too much weight in the buttstock.
I'm not a suppressor guy, so I can't provide any intelligent or informed information on that aspect. I would assume that it's going to be tough to find a suppressor that's rated for a very short barreled 300 mag (in any form). That's a lot of muzzle pressure to contain and I'm not sure how many suppressors can handle that.
Post by: James on March 10, 2022, 09:15:47 AM
I am totally unrealistic, my goal isn’t to make this gun “hearing safe”. I will still use muffs when I am not hunting.
My goal is to make it less damaging than a regular hunting rifle. Will a 10ish” magnum rifle be noticeably more quiet then a 16.5” 308 win or an 18” 30-06? I am assuming so, but don’t actually know and would love to be able to quantify this.
If you have the money and want to do a fun build have at it and enjoy. We all love fun gun projects. Yorke has posted alot of such fun short barrel/pistol projects on here over the years and it's fun to follow along.
I guess my issue is with the physics of the plan. The best suppressors reduce roughly 23-26db (based on actual testing not marketing claims). Rifles in standard barrel lengths range from 150db-175db depending on chosen cartridge, and will vary from there based on how short you make the barrel. And unsuppressed 308 with 24" barrel is 156db, and with 20" barrel is 170db. A 10" barreled 300WSM hasn't been officially measured, but you're likely going to be pushing 180db-200db in that setup. 140db is the pain threshold level for hearing, and what suppressors are designed to get you below. In your desired setup, you're likely going to be in the 150-170db range with suppressor.
Plus with 10" barrel a portion of your powder isn't going to burn in a factory ammo cartridge, it's going to blow through the suppressor and out the barrel. Factory ammo isn't likely to perform like you think it will. You'd need to hand load and experiment with different powders to optimize velocity and powder burn.
I would call the suppressor company you're thinking of and asking them about the rating for 300WSM barrel specifically in 10" barrel. The cans will be in the 5-10" long range depending on company. So cutting your barrel and adding a can is going to put you back into the 16-20" barrel+suppressor length range.
Yes I realize the suppressor also helps calm recoil....but again you're creating excessive recoil by shooting a 300WSM in a 10" barrel and putting a suppressor on it to end up at the same recoil level (or higher) than you'd be at with a different cartridge choice.
Again, it sounds like a fun new gun project. But just make sure you understand the physics of it so you're not disappointed when your suppressed SBR is shooting at 160db ratings.
Post by: James on March 10, 2022, 09:25:36 AM
I was initially thinking 150-180 grain for 300WSM, but Yorkie has me thinking 130 grain now.
I had a friend of a friend run 150 grain Barnes TTSX a few years ago though a reloading software program (maybe QL?) and came up with 2855 ft/sec. I can’t remember all the details unfortunately.
2265 ft/sec is obviously not what I am looking for in 300WSM, and even a larger caliber while better was hoping for more MV. I would love to hear if you have any more thoughts or insight to loadings that could get the MV up a bit higher for 338, 300wsm, etc.
What weight bullet are you thinking about using if you were to go 300 WSM?
FWIW, running a 300WSM with a 10in tube and 200gr bullet through QL it says RL26 will be the best powder for velocity and at max chamber pressure 2265 fps.
Running the same build spec and bullet but chambered in 308 QL says CFE223 is the best powder and at max pressure 2085 fps.
BUT, to get that extra 180fps with the 300 WSM you'll be using 25.3 grains more powder.
If I were insistent on building such a short barreled setup I think I'd look at doing a .338 maybe something like the 338 Ruger Compact Mag or even necking up the 308 to 338.
QL says a 10in 338 RCM with 200gr bullet will go 2300 using 63gr CFE223 and a 338-308 will go 2210 burning 46.7gr powder. IMO, either one of those, in such a short build, would be a better choice than the 300 WSM.
Post by: James on March 10, 2022, 09:37:34 AM
Given your experience with suppressors how much can one expect from a 10ish” barreled magnum rifle and a high quality suppressor? I understand I am in the minority asking this kind of crazy questions.
I have no delusions that it will be quiet, but hoping for substantially more quiet than a regular round 308/30-06/etc. in a 16-20” barrel unsuppressed.
Don't think anyone makes a suppressor rated for a 10" barreled 300 mag. The shortest are 20" for the 300 mags and up, 10" for the 223/5.56 capacity cartridges.
That’s not true.
https://deadairsilencers.com/products/sandman-k/
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220310/6e83791a0ce82af1d922767744eeaaf6.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220310/e9898c779fadb31070bc9a8f7d45d3e2.jpg)
https://deadairsilencers.com/products/sandman-s/
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220310/729d9168955ff75761fb93980884c8b0.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220310/b4fb04d475df0e48d9b139f500f435be.jpg)
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Do it. Have fun. Kill elk.
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Post by: b23 on March 10, 2022, 09:56:14 AM
Thank you for running those, I appreciate it.
I was initially thinking 150-180 grain for 300WSM, but Yorkie has me thinking 130 grain now.
I had a friend of a friend run 150 grain Barnes TTSX a few years ago though a reloading software program (maybe QL?) and came up with 2855 ft/sec. I can’t remember all the details unfortunately.
2265 ft/sec is obviously not what I am looking for in 300WSM, and even a larger caliber while better was hoping for more MV. I would love to hear if you have any more thoughts or insight to loadings that could get the MV up a bit higher for 338, 300wsm, etc.
If you drop down to something like a 125gr Hornady SST QL says you could launch those from a 10in 300WSM at around 2680 using RL17.
I'd talk to Zak at TBAC, he's a very smart dude and will always take your call or call you back, but on something like this I'd look at using a 338 suppressor or maybe TBAC's new Magnus can. On a build as extreme as this I would think a bigger volume can would be the way to go but Zak would know for sure.
Post by: dreadi on March 10, 2022, 10:00:40 AM
I appreciate your support!
Given your experience with suppressors how much can one expect from a 10ish” barreled magnum rifle and a high quality suppressor? I understand I am in the minority asking this kind of crazy questions.
I have no delusions that it will be quiet, but hoping for substantially more quiet than a regular round 308/30-06/etc. in a 16-20” barrel unsuppressed.Don't think anyone makes a suppressor rated for a 10" barreled 300 mag. The shortest are 20" for the 300 mags and up, 10" for the 223/5.56 capacity cartridges.
That’s not true.
https://deadairsilencers.com/products/sandman-k/
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220310/6e83791a0ce82af1d922767744eeaaf6.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220310/e9898c779fadb31070bc9a8f7d45d3e2.jpg)
https://deadairsilencers.com/products/sandman-s/
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220310/729d9168955ff75761fb93980884c8b0.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220310/b4fb04d475df0e48d9b139f500f435be.jpg)
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Much of what has been posted in this thread about the db SPL true. I don't take on measuring sound levels for suppressors but, I will say that my Ruger MkIII with a three inch barrel suppressed, is louder than my Ruger 10/22 with 16" barrel suppressed. I will also say that https://pewscience.com/ (https://pewscience.com/) performs test on multiple platforms with suppressors and you can expect to get an experience that represents logarithmic nature of sound. One of our members "2tallmike" has a rifle in a similar yet smaller caliber package than you're thinking about building. Perhaps he can chime in or give you some of his experience in a PM.
Post by: fly-by on March 10, 2022, 10:17:45 AM
I am looking to make a purpose-built short barrel hunting rifle for hunting Roosevelt elk in their thick jungle habitat, but can still ethically harvest across a clear cut when that rare opportunity arises.
Goals:
-Short as possible overall barrel length for maneuvering in the thick jungle of western WA
-Still be able to ethically harvest game to at least 350 yards with copper bullets.
-As corrosion resistant as possible.
-Be very comfortable, ergonomic, and easy to carry while still hunting
-1 MOA accuracy or better, because only accurate rifles are interesting.
What is your goal in terms of energy at 350 yards and are you still set on copper bullets only?
Post by: LDennis24 on March 10, 2022, 11:47:32 AM
https://matchgrademachine.com/velocity-testing-thompson-center-barrels/
I got to thinking of a gun I could imagine with large calibers and short barrels and looked up Thompson Contender barrel velocities and found this.
Post by: kselkhunter on March 10, 2022, 12:12:48 PM
Alternatively you could reduce powder load to reduce db levels. But that defeats your purpose of going with 300WSM.
Good luck in your project.
Post by: James on March 10, 2022, 01:30:06 PM
Check this out:
https://matchgrademachine.com/velocity-testing-thompson-center-barrels/
I got to thinking of a gun I could imagine with large calibers and short barrels and looked up Thompson Contender barrel velocities and found this.
I am pretty stuck on using copper bullets. I haven’t really worried about energy because if you have enough velocity for a copper bullet out of a hunting cartridge there is plenty of it to take game.
What is your goal in terms of energy at 350 yards and are you still set on copper bullets only?
Great thoughts, thank you. I think your suggestion lines up in the same place the people that recommend big bore revolvers and lever guns. Probably the smartest approaches to fix as much of my “problem” as possible without doing a crazy project. aka what a sensible person would do.
I would suggest the following. Go with a 16 inch barrel just for ease of paperwork and costs. Use a chassis style stock with a folding butt stock to shrink the package for field carry. Get online and check out some outdoor suppliers in England. They routinely use a style of moderator there that is shorter and fatter than what we see here, designed for this very purpose of suppressing flash and bang from short barreled rifles. Finally look at a smaller optic, trijicon acupoint makes a great little 1-4 variable wide field optic to top a light short rifle with.
Post by: James on March 10, 2022, 01:31:50 PM
Am I reading that correctly that the Sandman K is 5.4” long and only adds 2.9” in total length so it’s a reflex style? If so that is way better than the Mantis I was looking at in regards to added length.
Much of what has been posted in this thread about the db SPL true. I don't take on measuring sound levels for suppressors but, I will say that my Ruger MkIII with a three inch barrel suppressed, is louder than my Ruger 10/22 with 16" barrel suppressed. I will also say that https://pewscience.com/ (https://pewscience.com/) performs test on multiple platforms with suppressors and you can expect to get an experience that represents logarithmic nature of sound. One of our members "2tallmike" has a rifle in a similar yet smaller caliber package than you're thinking about building. Perhaps he can chime in or give you some of his experience in a PM.
I think your best bet is to call Thunderbeast and the various suppressor suppliers and tell them of your plan. Ask them if they have any cans in development that would be rated for a 10" 300WSM and can provide real-world 30-40db reduction. Maybe they have something out now or in development that could do it. The pewresearch summaries supports what I referenced earlier from other websites in testing of 23-26db best case of those suppressors tested....but technology keeps advancing and maybe the newer suppressors can get you there. I think the people that can answer the question best are the engineers at the suppressor companies. They'll have a better idea of how to extrapolate your starting db point with a 10" 300WSM.
Alternatively you could reduce powder load to reduce db levels. But that defeats your purpose of going with 300WSM.
Good luck in your project.
Post by: dreadi on March 10, 2022, 01:49:33 PM
It’s become painfully obvious to me I need to do a lot more reading and thinking about suppressors.
Am I reading that correctly that the Sandman K is 5.4” long and only adds 2.9” in total length so it’s a reflex style? If so that is way better than the Mantis I was looking at in regards to added length.Much of what has been posted in this thread about the db SPL true. I don't take on measuring sound levels for suppressors but, I will say that my Ruger MkIII with a three inch barrel suppressed, is louder than my Ruger 10/22 with 16" barrel suppressed. I will also say that https://pewscience.com/ (https://pewscience.com/) performs test on multiple platforms with suppressors and you can expect to get an experience that represents logarithmic nature of sound. One of our members "2tallmike" has a rifle in a similar yet smaller caliber package than you're thinking about building. Perhaps he can chime in or give you some of his experience in a PM.I think your best bet is to call Thunderbeast and the various suppressor suppliers and tell them of your plan. Ask them if they have any cans in development that would be rated for a 10" 300WSM and can provide real-world 30-40db reduction. Maybe they have something out now or in development that could do it. The pewresearch summaries supports what I referenced earlier from other websites in testing of 23-26db best case of those suppressors tested....but technology keeps advancing and maybe the newer suppressors can get you there. I think the people that can answer the question best are the engineers at the suppressor companies. They'll have a better idea of how to extrapolate your starting db point with a 10" 300WSM.
Alternatively you could reduce powder load to reduce db levels. But that defeats your purpose of going with 300WSM.
Good luck in your project.
and it weighs 44% less. Keep in mind, the K versions indicate they are the shorter versions of a longer S version. Shorter can mean less suppression. However, I get it. I went with the shortest 9mm suppressor possible at that time for a particular firearm, despite there being other options on the market that may have suppressed better.
You could take the aforementioned advice and call Dead Air, and ask them if their Nomad Ti or LTi would work with your ideas....they weigh even less The Nomad Ti with a Xeno mount weighs 10.3oz. If you'd like to put your hands on a Sandman K, Sandman S, or Nomad Ti, come see me.
Post by: Wea300mag on March 10, 2022, 04:08:01 PM
Post by: Rat44 on March 10, 2022, 04:22:25 PM
Short barreled carbines were all the rage at that time .
Bought a Rem 700 30/06,cut the barrel to 16 1/2" and put it in a Kevlar stock.
Has the ballistics of a long barreled 308 and only weighs 7 lbs with a 2 3/4 shotgun scope on it.
Carries like a dream.
My version of a timber gun that will handle clearcut shots.
But you pay the price in recoil ,noise and finding a load that worked with that short a barrel.
Good luck in you search,
Post by: Caseknife on March 10, 2022, 07:51:59 PM
Thing that I would be concerned with, and which I don't have any experience with yet, is the 5-10% of the unburned powder entering the suppressor. How much heat will that create burning 5-8 grains of powder within the can? Hunting situations wouldn't be a concern, one to two shots, but load development or just sighting in the rifle may be problematic.
Post by: ShaneTyTrey on March 10, 2022, 09:02:04 PM
I don't think a "Rifle" can legally have a barrel less than 16" long???
If you work though the proper legal process, pay some fees, it can be registered as a short barreled rifle.
Why this might make it legal, I still don’t believe you can hunt with a rifle in WA state with a barrel less than 16”. Probably better verify that before you build it, especially if building it as a hunting rifle.
Post by: yorketransport on March 10, 2022, 10:32:47 PM
Your recommended approach to use a light bullet and getting a highest possible muzzle velocity, I can see how that makes sense. I guess what I am surprised about (and maybe this shows my ignorance) is your comment about powders being barrel length agnostic. I just assumed faster burning powders in shorter barrels and slower in longer.
Because in my initial (and probably foolish) desire to use factory ammo I have also wondered if going the other direction with a heavy bullet and fast twist to increase the chamber pressure a bit and keep that bullet in the little short barrel a hair longer to burn as much powder as possible. It would lose some MV this way but the rotational energy would be higher and I am assuming that also helps drive bullet expansion. I have wondered if that’s the reason the new 8.6 blackout cartridge seems to take a super fast twist in a SBR to another level.
I appreciate your thoughts, especially the bullet weight and caliber choice. I really hadn’t thought of outsourcing to custom reloaders. I like that idea and if you have any recommendations they would be greatly appreciated.
The misconception that a shorter barrel needs a faster powder is pretty common. The fastest powder in a long barrel will still be the fastest powder in a short barrel. That doesn't mean it will be the most accurate or most efficient. Sometimes performance is more important than efficiency though. :tup:
The idea of going to a medium bore, subsonic round (8.6 Blackout) is an interesting one. I had a chance to play with a 338 Whisper (338/7mm BR) for a short period of time years ago. There weren't really any hunting bullets designed for that application at the time though, so it was just a fun way to lob 300gr SMKs for target work. Now there are custom bullets designed to expand and give good terminal performance from subsonic chamberings. The addition of an extremely fast twist barrel is a game changer as well. Rotational velocity plays a big part in expansion, especially with copper bullets. Since rotational velocity doesn't diminish at the same rate as linear velocity, it can help bullets expand below what would normally be considered the minimum velocity threshold.
If you weren't looking for factory ammo, something like a fast twist 338 might be worth trying. I'd be tempted to try a 33 Nosler, 338/375 Ruger, 330 Dakota. If you're going to try something a little crazy, you may as well go all out. That's how I ended up with the 338 SnipeTac pistol, and it turned out better than I hoped. Everyone said it would be a waste to burn 140gr of H50bmg in a 20" barrel. I think the 2890 fps with a 300gr bullet out of a 20" barrel proved a lot of "experts" wrong. Just build what you want and have fun. If it doesn't work, just take the barrel off and try again. :tup:
Post by: dreadi on March 10, 2022, 11:22:05 PM
There are no rifle minimum barrel length stipulations in the published regs.I don't think a "Rifle" can legally have a barrel less than 16" long???
If you work though the proper legal process, pay some fees, it can be registered as a short barreled rifle.
Why this might make it legal, I still don’t believe you can hunt with a rifle in WA state with a barrel less than 16”. Probably better verify that before you build it, especially if building it as a hunting rifle.
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Post by: James on March 11, 2022, 11:25:03 AM
Running lots of different calibers/combos through QL, the 300WSM is your best bet with 130TTSX, other cartridges don't get the velocity, but you are only going to get about 2550fps with RL17. With the 130TTSX at 350 yds you still have about 1750fps which should expand the bullet, how much, don't know, kind of at the limit.
Thing that I would be concerned with, and which I don't have any experience with yet, is the 5-10% of the unburned powder entering the suppressor. How much heat will that create burning 5-8 grains of powder within the can? Hunting situations wouldn't be a concern, one to two shots, but load development or just sighting in the rifle may be problematic.
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Post by: James on March 11, 2022, 01:30:16 PM
I wonder what the percentage of energy of a bullet is in linear motion vs rotational. I could make some calculations and get in the ballpark, but it’s going to be almost all linear. The real question is how much of bullet expansion is from impulse momentum of impact from the linear motion vs the rotational, that would be very hard to rough out, but I bet rotational impulse momentums contribution is higher than one would expect. If I knew that, I could find the sweet spot of bullet expansion balancing spin and MV for a given limited amount of overall bullet energy.
The copper bullets I use in my muzzy expand nicely at very low velocities, much to the surprise of a deer and bear last year😊 But there are reliefs in the bullet and that I am pretty sure are there to initiate the expansion.
I know there are brands of copper bullets that fragment to offer effectiveness at lower impact velocities and some people swear by them, but if I am honest I am hesitant in that direction.
I guess to sum up this rambling, optimizing the bullet design and spin could be a path forward for a short barreled hunting rifle with non lead ammo. I just need a lot more data...
The misconception that a shorter barrel needs a faster powder is pretty common. The fastest powder in a long barrel will still be the fastest powder in a short barrel. That doesn't mean it will be the most accurate or most efficient. Sometimes performance is more important than efficiency though. :tup:
The idea of going to a medium bore, subsonic round (8.6 Blackout) is an interesting one. I had a chance to play with a 338 Whisper (338/7mm BR) for a short period of time years ago. There weren't really any hunting bullets designed for that application at the time though, so it was just a fun way to lob 300gr SMKs for target work. Now there are custom bullets designed to expand and give good terminal performance from subsonic chamberings. The addition of an extremely fast twist barrel is a game changer as well. Rotational velocity plays a big part in expansion, especially with copper bullets. Since rotational velocity doesn't diminish at the same rate as linear velocity, it can help bullets expand below what would normally be considered the minimum velocity threshold.
If you weren't looking for factory ammo, something like a fast twist 338 might be worth trying. I'd be tempted to try a 33 Nosler, 338/375 Ruger, 330 Dakota. If you're going to try something a little crazy, you may as well go all out. That's how I ended up with the 338 SnipeTac pistol, and it turned out better than I hoped. Everyone said it would be a waste to burn 140gr of H50bmg in a 20" barrel. I think the 2890 fps with a 300gr bullet out of a 20" barrel proved a lot of "experts" wrong. Just build what you want and have fun. If it doesn't work, just take the barrel off and try again. :tup:
Post by: Stein on March 11, 2022, 02:14:59 PM
The coppers I hunt with won't open below 1500 reliably, I do agree you have valid concerns there.
I didn't read every reply, did you consider some version of a bullpup? Seems it might be easier to deal with the barrel being too short than finding a bullet that will work.
Post by: kselkhunter on March 11, 2022, 03:04:00 PM
If you could change the 350 yard requirement to something closer and/or the bullet selection, it would open up alot more options of cartridge and factory ammo.
As of right now the only factory ammo that comes to mind would be something in a magnum caliber with high BC bullets at high velocities that is regularly loaded by factory ammo suppliers. 6.5 PRC, 26 Nosler, up through the 27/28/30/etc. to the 338 RUM and 33 Nosler are what come to mind. The hard part is finding one that is available as factory ammo in the right bullet/cartridge combination and something you could acquire at a store or online realistically. The 130gr TTSX in 300WSM suggested from the Quickload data doesn't exist as a factory round from anybody.
Post by: hunter399 on March 11, 2022, 04:16:22 PM
Post by: ShaneTyTrey on March 11, 2022, 08:05:09 PM
There are no rifle minimum barrel length stipulations in the published regs.I don't think a "Rifle" can legally have a barrel less than 16" long???
If you work though the proper legal process, pay some fees, it can be registered as a short barreled rifle.
Why this might make it legal, I still don’t believe you can hunt with a rifle in WA state with a barrel less than 16”. Probably better verify that before you build it, especially if building it as a hunting rifle.
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I believe 16” is the law from back when all the kids took hunters Ed, I just checked and it says that.
Post by: James on March 11, 2022, 08:27:46 PM
How silly would that be if you could hunt elk with a 9mm that has a 4” barrel but not a 300 WM with a 15” barrel?
I believe 16” is the law from back when all the kids took hunters Ed, I just checked and it says that.
If the appropriate twist rate is chosen I can’t think of a reason it wouldn’t.
My biggest question is the supper high BC bullet gonna stabilize enough for 350 yards out of such a short barrel.
Post by: emac on March 11, 2022, 08:37:14 PM
I have a 6.8 spc with a 7.5" barrel and talk about hell on the ears.. I don't think i would want to shoot a 10" .300 WSM even with a can on it, without at least wearing earplugs under my muffs.My 10" AR in 223 is hell.on the ears with no can .
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Post by: dreadi on March 11, 2022, 09:16:23 PM
There are no rifle minimum barrel length stipulations in the published regs.I don't think a "Rifle" can legally have a barrel less than 16" long???
If you work though the proper legal process, pay some fees, it can be registered as a short barreled rifle.
Why this might make it legal, I still don’t believe you can hunt with a rifle in WA state with a barrel less than 16”. Probably better verify that before you build it, especially if building it as a hunting rifle.
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I believe 16” is the law from back when all the kids took hunters Ed, I just checked and it says that.
It looks like they need to update their publication for Hunter's Ed because it's not in the published regs and it's not in the WAC WAC 220-414-020
Quote
WAC 220-414-020
Unlawful methods for hunting—Firearms.
(1) It is unlawful to hunt any big game with:
(a) A fully automatic firearm.
(b) A centerfire cartridge less than 22 caliber for cougar.
(c) A centerfire cartridge less than 24 caliber for any other big game.
(d) A shotgun, provided that a 20 gauge, or larger shotgun, using shells loaded with slugs or buckshot size #1 or larger, may be used to hunt deer, bear, and cougar.
(e) A shotgun for any other big game, except that a 12 gauge or 10 gauge shotgun using slugs may be used.
(f) A handgun during a modern firearm season that does not meet the following criteria: Have a minimum barrel length of four inches, per manufacturer's specification, and fire a centerfire cartridge.
(g) Any rimfire cartridge.
(2) It is unlawful to hunt game birds with a shotgun capable of holding more than three shells.
(3) It is unlawful to hunt game birds or game animals, except bullfrogs, in a manner other than with a firearm, a bow and arrow, a crossbow, or by falconry.
(4) It is unlawful to hunt game animals or game birds with a shotgun larger than 10 gauge.
(5) It is unlawful to hunt game birds with a rifle or handgun, with the exception of blue grouse, spruce grouse and ruffed grouse.
(6) It is unlawful to hunt turkey with a weapon other than shotgun shooting #4 or smaller shot, bow and arrow, crossbow, or muzzleloading shotgun shooting #4 or smaller shot.
(7) A violation of this section is punishable under RCW 77.15.400, 77.15.410, or 77.15.430, depending on the species hunted.
Post by: dreadi on March 11, 2022, 09:18:21 PM
Hopefully its just that hunters Ed needs to update there info, because i don’t see it in the current regs.
How silly would that be if you could hunt elk with a 9mm that has a 4” barrel but not a 300 WM with a 15” barrel?
I believe 16” is the law from back when all the kids took hunters Ed, I just checked and it says that.
If the appropriate twist rate is chosen I can’t think of a reason it wouldn’t.My biggest question is the supper high BC bullet gonna stabilize enough for 350 yards out of such a short barrel.
It's about as silly as the regs telling you that you can hunt Tiger Mountain during modern season with a 458 SOCOM AR pistol but not a 300 Blackout AR pistol.
Post by: dreadi on March 11, 2022, 09:24:33 PM
I have a 6.8 spc with a 7.5" barrel and talk about hell on the ears.. I don't think i would want to shoot a 10" .300 WSM even with a can on it, without at least wearing earplugs under my muffs.My 10" AR in 223 is hell.on the ears with no can .
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
I can imagine. That's why I suppressed my 18"
Post by: emac on March 11, 2022, 09:53:33 PM
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Post by: yorketransport on March 11, 2022, 10:16:19 PM
If I were a betting man, I would bet that rotational energy has next to no impact on energy delivered or bullet expansion. When bullets open, I don't recall ever seeing any evidence they were spinning, there is no bending of the petals as you would expect if they kept spinning. The force on the petals I have seen is always perfectly linear back the direction they came from.
The coppers I hunt with won't open below 1500 reliably, I do agree you have valid concerns there.
I didn't read every reply, did you consider some version of a bullpup? Seems it might be easier to deal with the barrel being too short than finding a bullet that will work.
Energy may not be the best way to describe it, but expansion and penetration are impacted significantly by increasing the bullet's RPMs on impact. Some of the bullet testing I did involved shooting the same ammunition at ballistic gel from different twist barrels. The higher RPMs made lead core bullets expand more violently. Solid copper bullets which shed petals showed greater dispersion of the petal fragments and increased penetration depth while tracking in a straighter line.
Post by: bearpaw on March 12, 2022, 10:26:32 PM
Custom Barrel: https://www.bullberrylegacy.com/oldcustom-encore-barrels
If you want more than one shot check out this double: https://www.gunbroker.com/item/925940239
I don't think you could put suppressors on a double though? :chuckle:
Post by: bearpaw on March 13, 2022, 06:28:37 AM
Check out the positioning of this bolt action onto the stock and the trigger and scope positioning: https://deserttech.com/srs.php
Might be easier to just order a rifle here, you can get this in the 300 RUM and other high performance calibers: https://deserttech.com/rifle-builder.php?r=2
Post by: bearpaw on March 13, 2022, 06:41:27 AM
Post by: fly-by on March 13, 2022, 07:09:42 AM
Have you considered a single action rifle? A single action with a 16" barrel would probably be about the same length as a bolt action with a 12" barrel!
Custom Barrel: https://www.bullberrylegacy.com/oldcustom-encore-barrels
Or a single shot pistol with a brace.
CVA Scout Pistol
Farrow Tech Grip
Brace of your choice
Suppressor
CVA makes a few chamberings that come threaded.
14" .44 Mag and 11" .300 BO pictured here.
Post by: bearpaw on March 13, 2022, 07:18:00 AM
Some other interesting topics here too: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-shortest-sniper-rifle
Post by: James on March 13, 2022, 07:22:26 PM
I have never shot a bullpup rifle and such. I need to find a place I can get my hands on one and see how they feel.
Those overall lengths adding a suppressor and it’s still short!
Post by: jasnt on March 14, 2022, 06:31:59 AM
I think the easiest answer to this is 2 rifles. One for hunting thick timber and one for clear cuts.
I’m not much help here. I prefer long barrels and open spaces.
Post by: TooTallMike on March 21, 2022, 11:22:41 PM
Virgin 700 receiver.
13” 308 win 1/7 twist from x caliber
Black collar arms chassis
Sb1913 brace
Throw on bipod
Shooting 165gr CEB lazer (all copper)
Varget
2450fps.
Still has 1000ftlbs at 600 yds. Going 1650fps.
I personally wouldn’t shoot game at that distance unless conditions were PERFECT. But then I’d probably just try to get closer.
I even made an MOA subsonic using 194gr expanders by Lehigh defense.
Super fun to shoot
And hopefully you get to build one too just make sure to have Dana (dreadi) cerakote it for you.
Best of luck
Btw this is technically a pistol
Post by: headshot5 on March 22, 2022, 05:48:09 AM
https://www.savagearms.com/content?p=firearms&a=product_summary&s=57797 (https://www.savagearms.com/content?p=firearms&a=product_summary&s=57797)
Post by: dreadi on March 22, 2022, 10:53:40 AM
Super late to the party but this is what I built years ago
Virgin 700 receiver.
13” 308 win 1/7 twist from x caliber
Black collar arms chassis
Sb1913 brace
Throw on bipod
Shooting 165gr CEB lazer (all copper)
Varget
2450fps.
Still has 1000ftlbs at 600 yds. Going 1650fps.
I personally wouldn’t shoot game at that distance unless conditions were PERFECT. But then I’d probably just try to get closer.
I even made an MOA subsonic using 194gr expanders by Lehigh defense.
Super fun to shoot
And hopefully you get to build one too just make sure to have Dana (dredi) cerakote it for you.
Best of luck
Btw this is technically a pistol
So you can keep it loaded in the truck too!
Post by: James on March 22, 2022, 11:12:19 AM
Mocking up some stuff right now and trying to figure out where the best tradeoff of all the variables. Trying to take a lot of the comments here to heart and revaluate and make sure I end up with an optimized solution.
Post by: TooTallMike on March 22, 2022, 07:23:58 PM
Great stuff guys, thank you.
Mocking up some stuff right now and trying to figure out where the best tradeoff of all the variables. Trying to take a lot of the comments here to heart and revaluate and make sure I end up with an optimized solution.
I saw go with whatever you want! That’s the beauty of our tools you can make it whatever you want. Just don’t put red anodized parts on it because then I will make fun of you.
😂😂😂
Post by: dreadi on March 23, 2022, 01:04:00 AM
Great stuff guys, thank you.Come see me about suppressor options when you’re ready.
Mocking up some stuff right now and trying to figure out where the best tradeoff of all the variables. Trying to take a lot of the comments here to heart and revaluate and make sure I end up with an optimized solution.
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